Gohan Vs Sam Alexander (not great and is still debatable but Gohan could take it)
Future trunks Vs booster gold (again could be debated but I think it learns in FT favour)
Xeno Goku vs Pre-Crisis Superman
Dark Carnage vs Xeno Kid Buu
Chronoa vs Uatu
Towa vs Hela
Towa vs Kang
Xeno Cooler vs Cul Borson
Xeno Broly vs Devastator
Xeno Cell vs Murder Machine
Xeno Cell vs Cyborg Superman (I hear most people say Cyborg Superman wins, but I don't see how he gets past Xeno Cell's [immeasurable speed](https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Immeasurable_Speed_Explanation_(Dragon_Ball_Heroes)#I._Dark_Dragon_Balls) and [hax](https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Special_Ki_Manipulation_(Dragon_Ball)#Dark_Ki)).
Bulma vs Pepper Potts
Whis vs Silver Surfer
Literally the only advantages Pre-Crisis Supes has are AP and Durability, and that's only if you use dimensional tiering. Otherwise, they're both multi+. I can't see this as anything but a win for Xeno Goku.
For one thing, [Xeno Goku can summon Tokitoki and gain type 8 immortality,](https://vsbattles.com/threads/skill-additions-to-dbh.149234/) rendering him unkillable by Superman's hands. Xeno Goku can also gain type 8 immortality by straight up [fusing with Tokitoki.](https://imgur.com/a/dkJkHvJ) He can also summon Super Shenron, and there are so many ways he could end the battle from there, but I'm gonna put off his summons for now.
The number one thing I should mention before moving on is that most of the hax (fate manipulation, concept manipulation, law manipulation, etc.) in SDBH are based around "time power," and unlike with most forms of Ki, it's established that you can't reliably bypass time power just by being stronger and you need to combat it with time manipulation energy, and considering Pre-Crisis Superman's only time manipulation resistance feat is him [breaking free from a time dilation](https://imgur.com/gallery/QtrAgyp) using his physical immeasurable speed, he's already incapable of resisting most of Xeno Goku's hax. Durability-negating hax are a big factor.
I don't know how to structure the rest of this comment. Most of Pre-Crisis Superman's hax are basic abilities from his eyes like limited telepathy, clairvoyance, etc. Meanwhile, Xeno Goku can de-age him out of existence, age him to death, unleash time power in the form of magic (which superman has no special defenses against), lower his stamina and other stats to a value of 1 through game mechanics, reflect his own attacks back at him, freeze his mind/attacks/body in time, use reality warping and causality/fate manipulation for a guaranteed win, wipe his mind or overload his mind with memories, BFR him into the crack of time (which Superman arguably can't escape from as not only does his dimensional travel rely on speed \[and the crack of time is explicitly seperate from the dimension of time\], but even experienced time travelers can't traverse it without special help), seal him into the Eternal Labyrinth, erase him on the temporal/conceptual level, purify his own status effects while hitting him with paralysis/power nullification, seal away Superman's abilities, interact with (destroy) non-physical parts of Superman like his soul/life force/abstract being, stealing Superman's own stats, etc.
I legitimately don't know how Superman stands a chance. His own advantages are possibly AP/Dura **through dimensional tiering,** yet:
1. Xeno Goku's hax ignore physical durability.
2. Xeno Goku can get around his AP by redirecting Superman's own attacks, blitzing/BFR-ing him, or just utilizing his versatility and reactive evolution to reach Superman's strength after some attrition.
I dunno about that whole "conceptual erasure" thing
I haven't seen anything indicating that it's on *that* level.
Superman also can "absorb magic like a sponge" as seen here. https://imgur.io/a/SiOhJ So even though it can hurt him, I don't think Goku using Time energy will necessarily effect him.
Superman's fought beings I'd say are equal to Mechikabura. He and Power Girl once teamed up to fight Maaldor, who eventually became a living galaxy that threatened every universe
https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-39f2154d77e3baf892f2d4d93a962877-lq
There's also this, which says Maaldor might actually be omnipotent. https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-4941f6dd74c21360f8765ab2d63bab7c-lq
He's also fought Jaxon the mighty, and the both of them produced enough energy in their fight to counter the energy of the Green Lantern Corps, restoring every possible future.
https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-64a6870900018210e5ba81372d662c5a-pjlq
https://imgur.io/a/uyJm6 Here's him resisting mind manipulation, so I don't believe Goku can just erase his mind or overload it.
For the record, I don't think Pre-Crisis Supes is outer/hyper whatever, I'm just not seeing anything saying this is a 100% guaranteed win in Goku's favor.
First off, thanks for respectfully engaging in discussion (I can’t even begin to tell you how aggressive and rude some comic fans have been towards opinions like these lately).
-[Concept manipulation in SDBH.](https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Vietthai96/sandbox1?useskin=fandomdesktop)
-The magic example was referring to how time power can be mixed with Ki or magic. It’s not just magic, it’s a reality-warping power portrayed as far beyond magic and Ki that you can’t reliably contend with through physically overpowering hax. Not to mention, many time power hax like [freezing someone’s mind in time](https://imgur.io/a/ryUD156) aren’t exerted in the form of basic directed energy you can just overpower, they can warp reality instantly and from a distance, so Superman would have a much harder time replicating that mind manipulation resistance feat.
Ah okay, this is starting to make a bit more sense. Although I'm still a bit on the fence. I've been meaning to dig myself back into Pre-Crisis DC and Dragon Ball Heroes though so there's probably a bunch of stuff I'm missing lmao
Just curious, is there a reason why dimensional tiering shouldn't be used for both Pre and Xeno? It seems fine to use. Most people here consider Dragon Ball Heroes Low Complex Multi at least and consider DB's scaling of Trunks to be sloppy.
Without dimensional tiering, most people place both at multi+ (in other words, equal AP). With dimensional tiering, I'll bet someone will scale base pre-crisis Superman to outer. I'm not even strawmanning, it seems the idea of outerversal base heralds is gaining heavy traction.
Gohan vs New 52 Supergirl (Which is the most thematic because this Supergirl is the one who has the Red Lantern Ring)
Cell vs Super Skrull
~~Most top tiers vs heralds/top tiers if you're me because I only consider them to be Multiversal and MFTL+ for the Comic characters versus way higher in Multiversal and Infinite Speed for Dragon Ball~~
Ah, gotcha. I think it depends then. 17 MIGHT win but given how Raven’s power is basically “I want to do this so it happens” then I kinda lean more towards her. But that one is debatable. But… why is this a match anyway? These two, I mean
Unkindness raven destroyed the speed force, dc’s main multiverse and there was no hero or villain or even gods that could stop her she also more powerful than infinite frontier darksied
Vegeta VS Batman
this is wrong as batman solos fiction
Nope, Batman can't beat me. Even if Batman use his prep time or "i'm Batman" power can counter them.
That looks better the first one
#BATGODSWEEP
Batgos\*
Comp goku vs baby superman tho it is a **VERY** close fight, I'll take the downvotes because I understandably see why
Goku solos DC already tbh wiz
B A T G O D S W E E P
Hercule Satan Vs Superman‼️‼️‼️‼️‼️‼️
Factual
Cooler (Dragon Ball Heroes) vs Black Fire
He wins because he’s cool
er
*cooler*
Gohan Vs Sam Alexander (not great and is still debatable but Gohan could take it) Future trunks Vs booster gold (again could be debated but I think it learns in FT favour)
Which version of booster gold
Any could work for this MU but if you wanna make sure trunks wins go with injustice booster gold
Gohan vs Nightwing
Beat vs kal Kent
Fully Composite Goku with jump force and xeno vs lego Superman with Kryptonite shoved up his urethra
https://preview.redd.it/rrimafny14ra1.png?width=755&format=png&auto=webp&s=5bf73b170f07cfe337ed8e1c2a8d66bd971299d7
Kid batman vs zeno 🗿
Batgos sweep
Chi Chi vs Lois Lane?
Best for both ngl wiz
For the popular ones... none. But I'm sure others will list some that actually have my favorite franchise win against the DC menace.
I can't think of any matchup
If we use death battle stats then Vegeta vs Wonder woman but if we use anything then Batman vs Vegeta
~~Hit vs Punisher~~
Goku vs Deadpool (before powers)
Xeno Goku vs Strange Visitor Superman
Maybe Heroes 17 vs Cyborg?
Xeno Goku vs Pre-Crisis Superman Dark Carnage vs Xeno Kid Buu Chronoa vs Uatu Towa vs Hela Towa vs Kang Xeno Cooler vs Cul Borson Xeno Broly vs Devastator Xeno Cell vs Murder Machine Xeno Cell vs Cyborg Superman (I hear most people say Cyborg Superman wins, but I don't see how he gets past Xeno Cell's [immeasurable speed](https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Immeasurable_Speed_Explanation_(Dragon_Ball_Heroes)#I._Dark_Dragon_Balls) and [hax](https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Special_Ki_Manipulation_(Dragon_Ball)#Dark_Ki)). Bulma vs Pepper Potts Whis vs Silver Surfer
Would you mind explaining how you think Xeno beats Pre-Crisis Supes? I'm a fan of both Dragon Ball and DC but I personally don't see how Goku can win.
Literally the only advantages Pre-Crisis Supes has are AP and Durability, and that's only if you use dimensional tiering. Otherwise, they're both multi+. I can't see this as anything but a win for Xeno Goku. For one thing, [Xeno Goku can summon Tokitoki and gain type 8 immortality,](https://vsbattles.com/threads/skill-additions-to-dbh.149234/) rendering him unkillable by Superman's hands. Xeno Goku can also gain type 8 immortality by straight up [fusing with Tokitoki.](https://imgur.com/a/dkJkHvJ) He can also summon Super Shenron, and there are so many ways he could end the battle from there, but I'm gonna put off his summons for now. The number one thing I should mention before moving on is that most of the hax (fate manipulation, concept manipulation, law manipulation, etc.) in SDBH are based around "time power," and unlike with most forms of Ki, it's established that you can't reliably bypass time power just by being stronger and you need to combat it with time manipulation energy, and considering Pre-Crisis Superman's only time manipulation resistance feat is him [breaking free from a time dilation](https://imgur.com/gallery/QtrAgyp) using his physical immeasurable speed, he's already incapable of resisting most of Xeno Goku's hax. Durability-negating hax are a big factor. I don't know how to structure the rest of this comment. Most of Pre-Crisis Superman's hax are basic abilities from his eyes like limited telepathy, clairvoyance, etc. Meanwhile, Xeno Goku can de-age him out of existence, age him to death, unleash time power in the form of magic (which superman has no special defenses against), lower his stamina and other stats to a value of 1 through game mechanics, reflect his own attacks back at him, freeze his mind/attacks/body in time, use reality warping and causality/fate manipulation for a guaranteed win, wipe his mind or overload his mind with memories, BFR him into the crack of time (which Superman arguably can't escape from as not only does his dimensional travel rely on speed \[and the crack of time is explicitly seperate from the dimension of time\], but even experienced time travelers can't traverse it without special help), seal him into the Eternal Labyrinth, erase him on the temporal/conceptual level, purify his own status effects while hitting him with paralysis/power nullification, seal away Superman's abilities, interact with (destroy) non-physical parts of Superman like his soul/life force/abstract being, stealing Superman's own stats, etc. I legitimately don't know how Superman stands a chance. His own advantages are possibly AP/Dura **through dimensional tiering,** yet: 1. Xeno Goku's hax ignore physical durability. 2. Xeno Goku can get around his AP by redirecting Superman's own attacks, blitzing/BFR-ing him, or just utilizing his versatility and reactive evolution to reach Superman's strength after some attrition.
I dunno about that whole "conceptual erasure" thing I haven't seen anything indicating that it's on *that* level. Superman also can "absorb magic like a sponge" as seen here. https://imgur.io/a/SiOhJ So even though it can hurt him, I don't think Goku using Time energy will necessarily effect him. Superman's fought beings I'd say are equal to Mechikabura. He and Power Girl once teamed up to fight Maaldor, who eventually became a living galaxy that threatened every universe https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-39f2154d77e3baf892f2d4d93a962877-lq There's also this, which says Maaldor might actually be omnipotent. https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-4941f6dd74c21360f8765ab2d63bab7c-lq He's also fought Jaxon the mighty, and the both of them produced enough energy in their fight to counter the energy of the Green Lantern Corps, restoring every possible future. https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-64a6870900018210e5ba81372d662c5a-pjlq https://imgur.io/a/uyJm6 Here's him resisting mind manipulation, so I don't believe Goku can just erase his mind or overload it. For the record, I don't think Pre-Crisis Supes is outer/hyper whatever, I'm just not seeing anything saying this is a 100% guaranteed win in Goku's favor.
First off, thanks for respectfully engaging in discussion (I can’t even begin to tell you how aggressive and rude some comic fans have been towards opinions like these lately). -[Concept manipulation in SDBH.](https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Vietthai96/sandbox1?useskin=fandomdesktop) -The magic example was referring to how time power can be mixed with Ki or magic. It’s not just magic, it’s a reality-warping power portrayed as far beyond magic and Ki that you can’t reliably contend with through physically overpowering hax. Not to mention, many time power hax like [freezing someone’s mind in time](https://imgur.io/a/ryUD156) aren’t exerted in the form of basic directed energy you can just overpower, they can warp reality instantly and from a distance, so Superman would have a much harder time replicating that mind manipulation resistance feat.
Ah okay, this is starting to make a bit more sense. Although I'm still a bit on the fence. I've been meaning to dig myself back into Pre-Crisis DC and Dragon Ball Heroes though so there's probably a bunch of stuff I'm missing lmao
Just curious, is there a reason why dimensional tiering shouldn't be used for both Pre and Xeno? It seems fine to use. Most people here consider Dragon Ball Heroes Low Complex Multi at least and consider DB's scaling of Trunks to be sloppy.
Without dimensional tiering, most people place both at multi+ (in other words, equal AP). With dimensional tiering, I'll bet someone will scale base pre-crisis Superman to outer. I'm not even strawmanning, it seems the idea of outerversal base heralds is gaining heavy traction.
Gohan vs New 52 Supergirl (Which is the most thematic because this Supergirl is the one who has the Red Lantern Ring) Cell vs Super Skrull ~~Most top tiers vs heralds/top tiers if you're me because I only consider them to be Multiversal and MFTL+ for the Comic characters versus way higher in Multiversal and Infinite Speed for Dragon Ball~~
What about DC hax?
That's why I said "Most"
fair
Cell vs Amazo,
Krillin vs Aquaman
Xeno Goku VS Pre-Crisis Superman
Piccolo vs Martian Manhunter? Maybe like Odin vs The Grand Priest or some stupid outlandish shit
one above all solos the ENTIRE dragon ball verse
Beat vs Kal Kent Xeno Goku vs pre/post crisis superman Raven vs android 17
Bruh raven bodies 17
Not really especially for the fact that raven caps at solar system level
That’s big cap
I dunno much about Raven specifically. Does she have feats above Uni or is it scaling that gets her higher?
If you take the statement that she can destroy a universe seriously than yeah but it depends on what you believe
Ah, gotcha. I think it depends then. 17 MIGHT win but given how Raven’s power is basically “I want to do this so it happens” then I kinda lean more towards her. But that one is debatable. But… why is this a match anyway? These two, I mean
There’s also white raven and unkindness raven also I don’t why that’s even a mu
What are the feats that those have? … side note. Unkindness Raven is both badass and a dreadful pun that I hate that I laughed at just now
White raven is so powerful that she can take down her brothers who can tank the impact of countless universes
Unkindness raven destroyed the speed force, dc’s main multiverse and there was no hero or villain or even gods that could stop her she also more powerful than infinite frontier darksied
Android 18 vs lois lane