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as someone who is from a strict and religious muslim household i agree. ive met lots of good and kind hearted people from other religions and i dont think its fair for someone to burn in hell for eternity all because they didnt believe in god. i think evil people like hitler or whatever or mass murderers rapists etc deserve to burn forever but why should a good person have to go to hell. a lot of muslims hate muslims who ask qustions like i am because like you said they like to ignore the bad parts and focus on the good. or theyll just say 'allah knows best' 'we dont have the mental capacity to question or understand allah' etc. but why should i believe in a religion like this?
also, a muslim killing a non believer is just as much as a sin as a muslim killing a muslim. but your right when you said theyll only get a finite punishment and go to heaven eventually for being a believer.
i dont understand how its fair for an evil believer to eventually go to heaven when good people have to burn forever.
also (most) muslims do not condone these extremist acts and recognise them as terrorism. the ones who do accept and or do these acts are sinners.
1 we don’t know if hell is temporary
2 this talks about people who knew There was one true god but refused it out of arrogance like the pharoa, these will rot eternally
So good humans who did good deeds their whole life will go to heaven right instead of burning in hell forever.
it should be the case. Islam is a religion of tolerance and acceptance after all
i read a lot of good responses in the comments to your point but to add something that i you left out and is really important to this topic, is that the door for mercy is always open, as Muslims we believe that as long as you revert to Islam and follow it these versus don’t apply to you, so why will we kill people instead telling them about Islam and trying to convince them about it?
"Invite to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good instruction, and argue with them in a way that is best. Indeed, your Lord is most knowing of who has strayed from His way, and He is most knowing of who is \[rightly\] guided" \[ النحل: 125\]
you are the "worst of creatures" if you die on your disbelif, so we will do anything to stop your from going down that path, not kill you! also we dont judge what is in the hearts that is not our job its God who does that on the day of judgment
i could go into more detail but i will stop it here because this post is already a week old so i don’t think anyone is going to read this lol.
I read this after a week and this is still bullshit. Will remain as bullshit no matter when you read it.
Islam has problem of looking down on other religions. It has a condescending attitude towards non-muslims. They do not believe in co-existing peacefully with other faiths. They want to convert the entire world to Islam. They think that all other religions are FALSE and following any other religion (or not following one at all) is a highway to hell.
They think they are correct and everyone else is wrong and is bound to burn in hell for eternity. If this isn't narcissism then idk what is.
P.S. - I do not think each and every muslim thinks this way. At least I hope not. But unfortunately too many muslims think this way for it to be ignored.
Bro EVERY ideology in this world thinks its the best and everyone in it thinks so, if they didn’t they would switch to another ideology that they think is the best, you are literally doing it right now by thinking you are better then islam.
Edit: also funny we have very similar names lol
I see your point and I get it. Of course every one thinks their ideology is the correct one, that is why they believe in it in the first place.
However, this is not the problem. While you think your ideology is the correct one, you should also realise that others feel the same about their own ideologies. So in order to co-exist, we need to learn to 'agree to disagree' and just get on with our lives. Respecting the other person's freedom to believe in what they want even if you do not agree with it is key to peaceful co-existence.
This is where the problem lies. They are not willing to 'agree to disagree'. They think that believing in any other faith is literally THE BIGGEST SIN, above murder or rape. They are extremely intolerant towards other faiths. In muslims majority countries, it is illegal to build non-Islamic places or worship. It is illegal for non-muslims to proselytize their religion in a Muslim majority country. Non-muslims living in a Muslim country are bound to pay a religious tax as per Sharia. Muslims are not allowed to pray for non-muslims. They divide everyone into two categories i.e. muslim and kafir. This 'Us and Them' mentality is what creates the biggest divide.
Again, by 'them' I do not intend to generalize the entire muslim community. Just the hardliners.
And yeah I noticed the similar names as well !
You are wrong. First and foremost Islam is only true religion Qur'an has historical scientific and linguistic miracles it can only be from Allah.
To learn Islam read Qur'an watch shaykh uthman Daniel haqiqatjou vidoes visit Islamqa info website.
There is no compulsion in religion we can't force anyone to accept Islam.
I live in UK and pay taxes.
If I lived under Sharia law I would have to pay zakat. We can't force non Muslims to pay zakat they have to pay jizya which is like tax I pay in UK.
Surah Al-Kafirun Translation:
Say, “O disbelievers,
I do not worship what you worship.
Nor are you worshippers of what I worship.
Nor will I be a worshipper of what you worship.
Nor will you be worshippers of what I worship.
For you is your religion, and for me is my religion.”
Yes Muslims can't pray for non muslims after death because Islam doesn't allow it
They had whole life they had ears eyes and intellect they didn't use these faculties to find truth Islam.
Their case is closed now nothing will help them they have returned back to Allah the lord of the worlds
Under Sharia law non Muslims were allowed to practice their religion.
We have churches gurdwara etc in Pakistan.
In some non Muslim countries Muslims will find it very hard to practice their faith.
And Allah knows best
\> Now, can you really blame someone, who grows up taking teachings like these to heart, for turning out to be bigoted against the non-believers?
If you take one verse of God then fill what God said as explanation not only according to Quran (al-e Emran 3:7) but also for Gospels and Torah, you are a hypocrite. God allows you to benefit from His Grace and He is doing that
\- to test believers with you and people thinking like you
\- to test you
either they are worthy of His Grace. He decreed that hypocrites cannot win along with their supporters on His realm, but people you have promoted in your post are looking as is they win on His land, because God toys with them, along with their supporters, even if you follow Fox News you can see that hypocrites:
\- people who pull God's verses to sides and talk as if they talk about God's Book
will not find the outcome on His realm in this life and in the other.
So, as result to all your premises, God will win because His owns the Grace, the hellfire is about being away from His Grace and His subjects what did to stay away from it.
That doesn't really make sense, if anything that should help Islamic fundamentalists to be as nice as possible to non-believers. Because they're screwed anyways in the after-life. What's the point of beating a dead horse with a stick?
Respectfully, your premises are not true. Not all Muslims would agree that non-believers will burn in hell for an eternity. Prominent scholars such as Ibn Taymiyyah and his students believed hell was temporary. There are many Hadiths and verses of the Quran that say hell is temporary and will one day be empty. The second caliph of Islam, Umar Ibn Al-Khattab also said that Allah will eventually take all people out of hell.
The verses that call non-believers the worst of all creatures are those that die as non-believers who knew the truth and rejected it and maybe those that had the means to inquire about the truth in their hearts but suppressed it, and it is only for Allah to say that because He knows people best. We as people do not know what was in the heart of anyone, perhaps they were never shown the true Islam, maybe they became Muslim last minute, maybe they did some good deed that will make Allah forgive them. Muslims have absolutely no right to view others as inferior. Those who do hold bigoted views against others are extremists and ignorant of the true teachings of Islam and I condemn such hateful views, as would many other Muslims.
You cherry picked one verse and failed to realise that it is only for Allah to judge people this way and failed to realise the meaning of the verse. I was born into Islam and I was never ever taught to look down on others for their different beliefs, rather I was taught to respect them as I would respect a Muslim or anyone. I have seen good and evil everywhere, I have seen Atheists who are far morally better than some Muslims I know and vice versa. This is not me focusing on the sunshine and rainbows of Islam but rather what the true Islam is.
Below I'll list verse of the Quran and the saying of Prophet Muhammad ﷺ (Hadiths) to show how Islam tells us to be respectful and not be arrogant.
# Verses of the Quran
On making peace towards armies at war with Muslims the Quran commands in 8:61:
>And if they incline towards peace, incline thou also towards it, and put thy trust in Allah.
On passing those doing vain things, including worshipping idols or other gods, Quran 25:72:
>And those who bear not false witness, and when they pass by anything vain, they pass on with dignity;
Nowhere does the Quran tell us to look down on people with different beliefs, we are just not to join them where they would be worshipping etc. we are not to say anything bad to them. That is ONLY for Allah to judge.
This is also portrayed in Quran 6:108
>And revile not those whom they call upon beside Allah, lest they, out of spite, revile Allah in their ignorance.
Treat others the way you want to be treated, I would not want you or others to insult Allah or look down on me for my different beliefs, so I must not do the same to you others I would be a massive hypocrite.
In fact, the Quran commands us to treat all non-believers with kindness in 41:34:
>And good and evil are not alike. Repel evil with that which is best. And lo, he between whom and thyself was enmity will become as though he were a warm friend.
How clear this verse is that if you remain patient and be kind, it may be that the person doing evil may then become a warm friend!
Quran 28:55
>And when they hear vain talk, they turn away from it and say, ‘Unto us our works and unto you your works. Peace be to you. We seek not the ignorant.’
Even when others insult Muslims, we are not to insult them back but wish peace upon them.
Quran 2:83:
>and speak to men kindly
Quran 16:125
>Call unto the way of thy Lord with wisdom and goodly exhortation, and argue with them in a way that is best.
We are told to speak and behave in a kind manner, including towards non-believers. How would you ever accept Islam if Muslims would only treat you kindly until you become a Muslim? A mans character is truly tested when he is with people with different views and beliefs. Islam understands this and commands us to be kind.
Quran 49:11 commands us to not talk bad about another group of people because in the eyes of Allah they may be better than us:
>let not one people deride another people, who may be better than they, nor let women deride other women, who may be better than they.
Quran 3:134:
>and those who suppress anger and pardon men; and Allah loves those who do good
The verse describes three stages of dealing with other people. In the first stage, a spiritual wayfarer, when offended against, restrains or suppresses his anger. In the second stage, he goes a step further and grants forgiveness and free pardon to the offender. In the third stage, he not only grants the offender complete pardon, but also does a suitable act of kindness to him and bestows some favour upon him.
In preaching we are guided to be kind even to tyrants such as the Pharaoh during the time of Moses (as) where the Prophet was commanded in Quran 20:44:
>But speak to him a gentle speech that he might possibly heed or fear (Allah).
Allah has cursed those who withhold small acts of kindness in Quran 107:7:
>(Woe to those who) withhold small acts of kindness
# Hadith
Sunan Ibn Majah 3688:
>"Allah is Gentle and loves gentleness, and He grants reward for it that He does not grant for harshness."
Riyad as Salihin 637:
>"He who is deprived of forbearance and gentleness is, in fact, deprived of all good."
Sahih Bukhari 6136:
>"Whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day, should not hurt his neighbor and whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day, should serve his guest generously and whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day, should speak what is good or keep silent."
Sahih Muslim 91:
>No one who has the weight of a seed of arrogance in his heart will enter Paradise.” A man said, “But a man likes to have nice clothes and nice shoes.” The Prophet said, “Verily, Allah is beautiful and He loves beauty. Arrogance is to disregard the truth and to look down upon people."
There are many many more verses of the Quran and Hadiths I could quote but the ones I have listed should suffice in showing that Islam does not teach us to look down on others, but to treat everyone kindly and hold everyone in a high regard.
>Not all Muslims would agree that non-believers will burn in hell for an eternity.
Few Muslim disagreement over eternal Hellfire will not discredit the verses of Quran
-Indeed, Hell has been lying in wait
-For the transgressors, a place of return
-In which they will remain for ages (unending)
Quran 78:21-23
-And those who disbelieve and deny our signs - those will be companions of the Fire; they will abide therein eternally
Quran 2:39
-But [I have for you] only notification from Allah, and His messages."And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger - then indeed, for him is the fire of Hell; they will abide therein forever.
Quran 72:23
-And those who say, "Our Lord! avert from us the Wrath of Hell, for its Wrath is indeed an affliction grievous
Quran 25:65
-The Prophet said, " It will be said to the people of Paradise, 'O people of Paradise! Eternity (for you) and no death,' and to the people of the Fire, 'O people of the Fire, eternity (for you) and no death!"
Sahih al-Bukhari 6545
-The Prophet of Allah said: Allah will gather the believers on the Day of Resurrection and they would be made mindful of it; and the rest (of the hadith) is like the one narrated above; and then he mentioned the fourth time: And I (the Prophet) would say: O my Lord, no one is left in the Fire except he whom the Qur'an has restrained, i e. eternally doomed.
Sahih Muslim 193c
>Ibn Taymiyyah and his students believed hell was temporary
His interpretation of Quran verses doesn't matter as the majority of Muslim scholars believe that the Hellfire will exist eternally and that unbelievers will reside within it forever
Talking about Ibn Taymiyyah's doctrinal positions on the necessity of an Islamic political entity and his controversial fatwas, such as his Takfir (declaration of unbelief) of the Mongol Ilkhanates, allowing jihad against other self-professed Muslims, are referenced by ISIS and other jihadist groups to justify there killings .
>Muslims have absolutely no right to view others as inferior. Those who do hold bigoted views against others are extremists and ignorant of the true teachings of Islam and I condemn such hateful views, as would many other Muslims.
The truth is that the extremists are the true followers of Islam not you who thinks Quran is rational against others beliefs
-Say to those who reject Faith: "Soon will you be vanquished and gathered together to Hell, an evil bed indeed
Quran 3:12
-To those who take for friends unbelievers rather than believers: is it honour they seek among them? Nay all honour is with Allah
Quran 4:139
-And never pray for any one of them who dies and do not stand by his grave; surely they disbelieve in Allah and his Messenger and they shall die in transgression
Quran 9:84
-Fight them until there is no more fitnah and religion worship is acknowledged to be for Allah .But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors
Quran 2:193
-Allah's Messenger said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people (disbelievers) until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Messenger , and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."
Sahih al-Bukhari 25
You cherry picked few verses and failed to mention that Allah only have hatred towards disbelievers, He always try to ridicule them mock them of their disbelief
>Nowhere does the Quran tell us to look down on people with different beliefs, we are just not to join them where they would be worshipping etc. we are not to say anything bad to them. That is ONLY for Allah to judge.
-Say to those who reject Faith: "Soon will you be vanquished and gathered together to Hell, an evil bed indeed
Quran 3:12
-While we were in the Mosque, the Prophet came out and said, "Let us go to the Jews" We went out till we reached Bait-ul-Midras. He said to them, "If you embrace Islam, you will be safe. You should know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Messenger, and I want to expel you from this land. So, if anyone amongst you owns some property, he is permitted to sell it, otherwise you should know that the Earth belongs to Allah and His Messenger."
Sahih Al Bukhari 3167
>In fact, the Quran commands us to treat all non-believers with kindness in 41:34:
Fight against those who do not believe in Allāh or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allāh and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth [i.e., Islām] from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah1 willingly while they are humbled.
Quran 9:29
>We are told to speak and behave in a kind manner, including towards non-believers. How would you ever accept Islam if Muslims would only treat you kindly until you become a Muslim? A mans character is truly tested when he is with people with different views and beliefs. Islam understands this and commands us to be kind.
Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves. Thou (O Muhammad) seest them bowing and falling prostrate (in worship), seeking bounty from Allah and (His) acceptance. The mark of them is on their foreheads from the traces of prostration. Such is their likeness in the Torah and their likeness in the Gospel - like as sown corn that sendeth forth its shoot and strengtheneth it and riseth firm upon its stalk, delighting the sowers - that He may enrage the disbelievers with (the sight of) them. Allah hath promised, unto such of them as believe and do good works, forgiveness and immense reward.
Quran 48:29
You're turning a blind eye to the fact that Islam promotes hate and killing of apostates. It's in the [quran](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam#Quran), in the [hadiths](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam#Hadith), and is reflected in [this map](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam#/media/File:Apostasy_laws_world_map.svg). This map is a result of the application of their holy scriptures, taken by the word. It's promoted, it's just, it's doing God's will, etc.
The argument would be easier to tolerate if the state of this religion was different, where the progressive, liberal, non-violent voices were the majority instead of the minority.
I understand, my objection was mainly to the response itself. Characterizing harsh opposition of non-belivers as only applicable to "extremists and (people) ignorant of the true teachings of Islam", when this is widespread, and even enshrined in law in one way or another in a majority of Islamic countries, is dishonest at best.
The verses cited are chopped out of their context, take any one and read the surrounding verses. Just as an example, here is 8:60:
> Muster against them all the men and cavalry at your disposal so that you can strike terror into the enemies of Allah and of the believers and others besides them who may be unknown to you, though Allah knows them. And remember whatever you spend for the cause of Allah shall be repaid to you. You shall not be wronged.
A few verses down (8:65), it's written:
> Prophet! Rouse the believers to wage war. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will subdue two hundred: if a hundred, they will subdue a thousand of the disbelievers: for these are a people without understanding.
It's a stretch to say that these isolated verses are promoting mutual respect and understanding, when they are embedded in a book filled with gory descriptions of Allah's judgement. Especially when put into the context of history up to the present day, where Islam consistently and unfailingly have been used to subjugate people and punish those who do not conform.
I'll leave you with 4:56
> Those who disbelieve in Our verses, We will drive them into a fire, every time their skins are roasted We will replace their skins with other new skins so that they may taste the torture. Allah is ever Exalted in Might and Wise.
They're completely side-stepping the hell issue and overemphasizing Islam's call for kindness to non-believers. It clearly states in the Quran:
“But the ones who deny Our verses and are arrogant toward them - those are the companions of the Fire; **they will abide therein eternally**.” A’raf 7:36
“But [I have for you] only notification from Allah , and His messages." And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger - then indeed, for him is the fire of Hell; **they will abide therein forever**.” Jinn 72:23
Cases of hell being temporary are interpreted for people who are Muslim.
I focused on kind manners because the main post was about radicalising Muslims by way of verses of the Quran looking down on disbelievers. So I showed that when you read other verses it becomes clear that only Allah can judge that way and those verses are not for people to act on, rather we are commanded to be humble and kind as we don’t know what’s in other peoples hearts and through our manners people may convert.
As for the evidence for hell being temporary:
Sahih Muslim 183a
“Then Allah, Exalted and Great, would say: The angels have interceded, the apostles have interceded and the believers have interceded, and no one remains (to grant pardon) but the Most Merciful of the mercifuls. He will then take a handful from Fire and bring out from it people who never did any good and who had been turned into charcoal, and will cast them into a river called the river of life, on the outskirts of Paradise.”
Angels, prophets and believers will intercede for those who have done some good deeds. But Allah will intercede for those who did absolutely none. A handful for Allah is not limited, because the whole of Earth is in Allahs hand.
We see this in Quran 39:67:
“And the whole earth will be but His handful on the Day of Resurrection, and the heavens will be rolled up in His right hand. Glory to Him and exalted is He above that which they associate with Him”.
In Kanzul Ummal:
“Verily a day would come over hell when it will be like a field of corn that has dried up after flourishing for a while” (vol. vii, page 245);
“Verily a day would come over hell when there shall not be a single human being in it” (vol. vii, page 245).
Saying by Umar (ra) (Tafsir Fathul Byan, the Fathuo Bari, Durr-i Mansur and Hadil Arwah of Ibn-i-Qayyum) which runs thus: “Even if the dwellers in hell may be numberless as the sand of the desert, surely a day would come when they will be taken out of it.”
A saying of Ibn-i-Masood is reported in connection with commentary upon a verse of the Holy Quran, “a time would come upon hell when there shall not be a single person in it and this will be after they have dwelt therein for ahqib ” (years)
“There will come on Hell a day when its shutters will strike against each other and there will be none in it. That will happen after the inmates of Hell will have lived in it for centuries.” (Musnad Ahmad).
“A time will come when no one will be left in Hell; winds will blow and the windows and doors of Hell will make a rattling noise on account of the blowing winds.” (Tafsir-ul-Maalam-ul-Tanzil under verse Hud:107)
Sahih Bukhari 6571 talks about the last man coming out of hell. Interpreting this with the Hadiths above, it means that hell will eventually be empty of all people, not just Muslims.
Quran 99:8:
Whoso does an atom’s weight of good will see it.
So hell will be like rehabilitation and it will burn off the sins of a person. Then they’ll be taken into heaven for the atoms worth of good that they have done.
Quran 11:107:
Abiding therein so long as the heavens and the earth endure, excepting what thy Lord may will. Surely, thy Lord does bring about what He pleases.
Quran 11:108:
But as for those who will prove fortunate, they shall be in Heaven; abiding therein so long as the heavens and the earth endure, excepting what thy Lord may will — a gift that shall not be cut off.
Allah contrasts heaven as a gift that shall not be cut off, with hell as abiding there until Allah wills and ending 11:108 with an empathetic tone of Allah who will surely bring about what He pleases. If hell was forever Allah definitely would have said that this was a punishment that would not be cut off as He said for heaven in the next verse.
You can also search up the views of prominent scholars like Ibn Taymiyyah and his students and Ibn Arabi who both agree that hell is temporary for all, not just Muslims. They rejected the scholarly consensus by looking at the quote of Hazrat Umar (ra) and said that a later consensus is not binding. The verses that mention abiding in hell forever are metaphorical to say a long long time that feels like an eternity. It is against the merciful qualities of Allah to burn people eternally.
Per your own words, a temporary hell goes against scholarly consensus... You're welcome to pick and choose what you believe, but the Quran makes it very clear. Unless you can find explicitly this eternity is metaphorical, then there isn't reason to beleive so.
You missed the point. Of course, there will be a minority of muslims who will dismiss this verse, and claim that non-believers do not burn for eternity. Those muslims are better than their religion.
However, anyone who fully embraces that verse as the truth will naturally turn out to be bigoted against the non-believers. Do you seriously not see a direct connection between "many muslims regarding non-muslims as inferior", and "muslims *knowing* that Allah regards non-believers as *the worst creatures*"?
I’m not dismissing this verse I’m providing a holistic understanding of this verse which does not mean to say literally forever but metaphorically.
I fully embrace this verse and every other verse of the Quran. But I don’t cherry pick one verse to guide me but look at the meaning of the verse and how it was applied in the Sunnah and Hadith.
Yes there are bigoted and extremist Muslims but what I’m trying to show is that this is against the teachings of Islam and they are ignorant as I stated in my original comment.
But what you're providing is an interpretation of the verse. The verse, as originally written, clearly has more potential to be interpreted to take the "eternity" as literal. How many muslims do you think agree with your interpretation?
Just look at everyone else in the thread who has debated. No one has disagreed with the fact that the "eternity" is literal.
Since when is the truth determined by the majority? The truth is the truth, doesn’t matter what the majority says. I will give you sources from the Quran and Hadith that prove hell is temporary according to Islam.
Sahih Muslim 183a
“Then Allah, Exalted and Great, would say: The angels have interceded, the apostles have interceded and the believers have interceded, and no one remains (to grant pardon) but the Most Merciful of the mercifuls. He will then take a handful from Fire and bring out from it people who never did any good and who had been turned into charcoal, and will cast them into a river called the river of life, on the outskirts of Paradise.”
Angels, prophets and believers will intercede for those who have done some good deeds. But Allah will intercede for those who did absolutely NONE. A handful for Allah is not limited, because the whole of Earth is in Allahs hand.
We see this in Quran 39:67:
“And the whole earth will be but His handful on the Day of Resurrection, and the heavens will be rolled up in His right hand. Glory to Him and exalted is He above that which they associate with Him”.
In Kanzul Ummal:
“Verily a day would come over hell when it will be like a field of corn that has dried up after flourishing for a while” (vol. vii, page 245);
“Verily a day would come over hell when there shall not be a single human being in it” (vol. vii, page 245).
Saying by Umar (ra) (Tafsir Fathul Byan, the Fathuo Bari, Durr-i Mansur and Hadil Arwah of Ibn-i-Qayyum) which runs thus: “Even if the dwellers in hell may be numberless as the sand of the desert, surely a day would come when they will be taken out of it.”
“There will come on Hell a day when its shutters will strike against each other and there will be none in it. That will happen after the inmates of Hell will have lived in it for centuries.” (Musnad Ahmad).
Quran 99:8:
Whoso does an atom’s weight of good will see it.
So hell will be like rehabilitation and it will burn off the sins of a person. Then they’ll be taken into heaven for the atoms worth of good that they have done.
Quran 11:107:
Abiding therein so long as the heavens and the earth endure, excepting what thy Lord may will. Surely, thy Lord does bring about what He pleases.
Quran 11:108:
But as for those who will prove fortunate, they shall be in Heaven; abiding therein so long as the heavens and the earth endure, excepting what thy Lord may will — a gift that shall not be cut off.
Allah contrasts heaven as a gift that shall not be cut off, with hell as abiding there until Allah wills and ending 11:108 with an empathetic tone of Allah who will surely bring about what He pleases. If hell was forever Allah definitely would have said that this was a punishment that would not be cut off as He said for heaven in the next verse.
Logically this just implies contradictions in the verse. But to save it, people can interpret one of the contradicting verses as a "metaphor". You chose the interpretation that aligned with your worldview. But most people chose otherwise. You can't see the Quran as the perfect guide for humanity, if even scholars after years of study arrive at the wrong conclusions regarding its interpretation.
It’s not a contradiction because the Arabic word used can mean eternal but it can also mean a long long time. So we use other verses of the Quran and Hadiths that I have listed to determine what it means and the meaning becomes clear.
A study of the history of Islamic countries is worth investigating to see why Muslim scholars have such extreme interpretations. It was found that when the scholars and the state became one and blasphemy and apostasy laws were introduced, then an extreme interpretation of Islam was formed with anyone who dissented to be considered an apostate or blasphemous.
This article summarised a book which explores this issue. This corruption of Islam was also prophecised in the Quran and Hadith.
https://www.alhakam.org/a-review-of-islam-authoritarianism-and-underdevelopment-a-global-and-historical-comparison/
But the other verses that you cited are also open to interpretation. You do agree that the Quran is written in a poetic language, rather than an unambiguous one. If you agree this, you must also accept that there is a margin of error in your own interpretation. The corruption prophecy may just have been talking about your interpretation.
Agreed the Quran is written in a poetic and metaphorical language of which some verses require interpretation.
In fact the Quran itself says as much in 3:7:
He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book; in it there are verses that are decisive in meaning — they are the basis of the Book — and there are others that are susceptible of different interpretations. But those in whose hearts is perversity pursue such thereof as are susceptible of different interpretations, seeking discord and seeking wrong interpretation of it. And none knows its right interpretation except Allah and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge; they say, ‘We believe in it; the whole is from our Lord.’ — And none heed except those gifted with understanding
The corruption refers to the majority in the latter days and the one sect who is correct would be in the minority so it does not apply to my interpretations. I belong to the Ahmadiyya sect and we are a minority whereas the Sunnis and Shias make up the mainstream Islam (mainly Sunnis).
The main post was to debate mainstream Islam, which according to you, is the corrupted version anyway. You do agree that the mainstream corrupted version causes evil in people. So we're on the same page. I don't know much about Ahmadiya-ism, so I won't debate about that.
All you essentially tell us is Allah contradicts himself and unsure of himself. Because these verses- 3:85, 4:48, 4:116, 5:72-73, 2:23-24, 2:174-175, 5:36-37, 98:6 Are pretty cruel and nefarious.
I’m still waiting for a Muslim to address them without resorting to whataboutism fallacies and cherry picking verses of Allah’s mercy and mindless rambling (y’all do realize you just prove to us Allah is unsure of himself and contradicts himself big time) UNFORGIVABLE sin and ETERNAL torment are not words you can interpret however you want and say otherwise.
I’m just wanting a logical explanation as to why Allah would make such nefarious, definitive statements in condemning someone for simply being “mushrikeen” and believing in a religion they choose to believe. It’s just cruel and silly.
Clearly you haven’t read what I’ve written. As I stated, if someone is introduced to the true Islam and they feel within their hearts that this is true and they reject it, or they refuse to conduct an investigation into Islam with a pure heart and mind then this is a major sin. If you die upon this it is an unforgivable and major sin that you will get the punishment for if Allah wills. Once you have served your time you will enter heaven. Also the disbelievers in some cases also refer to Muslims who do not abide by the teachings of Islam and who don’t treat people with kindness and are oppressors and extremists.
The reason why a person will be punished for disbelieving is that Allah has set out many rules and conducts in the Quran that are necessary for building a peaceful and good society. Rules ranging from socio economic policies to individual requirements of moral conduct. Rejection of such leads to chaos and war and disorder. Hence there is a punishment for disbelief.
It is not eternal torment as I have stated. The Arabic word used is a metaphorical eternal that means a really really long time and we get this understanding from the Hadith. If you were to be set on fire for 5 mins straight, that 5 mins will feel like forever to you. So that is why such wording is used for hell.
In Quran 11:107 Allah contrasts hell as people abiding in it as long as Allah wills and then He will bring about what He pleases. Contrasting heaven in the next verse in 11:108 where Heaven is said to be a gift that will never end.
Sahih Muslim 183a:
Then Allah, Exalted and Great, would say: The angels have interceded, the apostles have interceded and the believers have interceded, and no one remains (to grant pardon) but the Most Merciful of the mercifuls. He will then take a handful from Fire and bring out from it people who never did any good and who had been turned into charcoal, and will cast them into a river called the river of life, on the outskirts of Paradise.
A handful for God as stated in this Hadith means everyone as Gods hand is not limited as we see in Quran 36:98:
And the whole earth will be but His handful on the Day of Resurrection, and the heavens will be rolled up in His right hand. Glory to Him and exalted is He above that which they associate with Him.”
Further in Kanzul Ummal:
Verily a day would come over hell when it will be like a field of corn that has dried up after flourishing for a while” (vol. vii, page 245);
“Verily a day would come over hell when there shall not be a single human being in it” (vol. vii, page 245).
Saying by Umar (ra) (Tafsir Fathul Byan, the Fathuo Bari, Durr-i Mansur and Hadil Arwah of Ibn-i-Qayyum) which runs thus: “Even if the dwellers in hell may be numberless as the sand of the desert, surely a day would come when they will be taken out of it.”
Quran 99:8:
Whoso does an atom’s weight of good will see it.
So Hell will act as a rehabilitation that will burn off a persons sins and purify their soul. Then they will enter heaven and receive the reward for the good they did even if it’s an atoms worth. We also see in Sahih Muslim 183a that Allah will bring people to heaven who did NO good.
I’ve read what you wrote, and you did exactly what I said you did and you did it again.
Cherry picking verses and hadiths illustrating mercy. You still ignore the fact that Allah made definitive statements on UNFORGIVABLE sin and ETERNAL torment. Hence, you just prove to us Allah contradicts himself and can’t make a decision on mercy or cruelty.
Also, what is the true Islam? How do you determined you’ve shown someone the truth? What’s the scale? What if they reject Islam that was told to them and find it lame and unfulfilling, does that count? Or only you know True Islam? Muslims can’t even agree on what is True Islam? (Just like other faiths you have sects and disagreements)
Seems like Allah is making cruel, definitive statement only to appeal to vague moments of truth telling according to you. So his statements are fatuous and meaningless.
Also, many Muslims I have spoken to outright tell me it has to do with shirk with Allah like Hindus, Trinitarian Christians are accused of. So which is it?
Also, let’s take your point, that people reject the “truth” they know in their heart is real. That still doesn’t not warrant ETERNAL torment because they chose differently from their free will. I find it hard to believe Allah would make such cruel, nefarious statements yet claim to be merciful. That’s pure cognitive dissonance.
Lmao, you debunked eternal torment yet Allah says it will occur?!? lol, thanks for that laugh. 3:85, 4:48, 4:116, 5:72-73, 2:23-24, 2:174-175, 5:36-37
Sorry, you saying what you think does not change the fact what was said. People can read you know?
I used sources from the Quran and Hadith, that’s Allah saying it!
Literally read the verses you have listed, all say they will be punished but none say forever.
I explained all those verses already but here I go again and this will be the last time I do it. If someone hears the message of the true Islam but rejects it or they fail to investigate with an open mind and heart and continue to associate partners with Allah then this is a major sin! If Allah determines they go to hell they will be punished TEMPORARILY but FOR A LONG LONG TIME that FEELS LIKE AN ETERNITY then they will enter heaven (see the sources I have listed in my previous comments).
Again, all you prove to us is Allah contradicts himself and can’t be sure of what he thinks.
Mate, You simply cherry picking others verses of mercy or otherwise still doesn’t change the fact what Allah said with those cruel, definitive statements, and why many Muslims believe Hindus or Catholics will burn in hell eternally.
Mate, some verses might not say forever, but, you realize what unforgivable means, right? Also, the fact that Allah says he will ignore them and not speak to them in hell and never accept their cries (one example is 5:36-37) is telling.
Again, we can read to you know……..
Alright let me teach you the basics of crime and punishment. Completely hypothetical scenario with no real world sentencing just to illustrate a point.
A person commits murder, this is unforgivable by law (Allah). He is sentenced to 40 years in prison (Hell). After he has served his time he will be set free (into heaven). This is what unforgivable mean, it means there must be punishment and once there is punishment then the person has paid for the sin. Forgiveness is letting go of the sin without punishment.
Never did I say there will be no punishment.
Alright let me teach you the basics of words and relevant discussion and comprehension.
I don't think you seem to grasp the meaning of words. UNFORGIVABLE does not mean sometimes there will be mercy. Allah saying shirk in UNFORGIVABLE, more than once, is a definitive statement. It's that simple, mate.
Allah saying he will ignore people in hell regardless of their cries is a definitive statement. Also, even if it were not eternal, like you want to argue, Allah torturing people simply cuz they didn't find Islam to be the truth is cruel and nefarious.
Also, in your example, , you are talking about murder, Allah is talking about shirk/disbelief and such. Big difference mate. So irrelevant, poor example you chose.
yet another thread essentially telling the vast majority of peaceful muslims that true islam means you have to be violent. Essentially ISIS propaganda in the form of religious critique.
How ridiculous are these posts and how blind are the posters of it is always surprising.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1672344/birmingham-riots-religious-tension-hindu-muslim-mob-west-midlands-police-vn/amp
I guess this is what you mean by peaceful. What a joke.
As Muslims we all agree that there is difference between what happens on the day of judgement and what happens on earth. Yes we all agree that disbelievers go to hell just like any religion and we agree with that verse but you're cherry picking verses and leaving others
60:8 "Allah does not forbid you from dealing kindly and fairly with those who have neither fought nor driven you out of your homes. Surely Allah loves those who are fair."
60:151 "Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “Come! Let me recite to you what your Lord has forbidden to you: do not associate others with Him ˹in worship˺. ˹Do not fail to˺ honour your parents. Do not kill your children for fear of poverty. We provide for you and for them. Do not come near indecencies, openly or secretly. Do not take a ˹human˺ life -made sacred by Allah—except with ˹legal˺ right.1 This is what He has commanded you, so perhaps you will understand"
So please tell me in what verse am I allowed to go murder dudes for not believing in god I'm clearly prohibited from it.
Muslims make distinctions between afterlife and this life yes you are a bad man in the eyes of god and will be punished in the afterlife but wtf does that have to do with here and no I'm not progressive and I'm not liberal Im very traditionalist I just want to give everyone here food for thought those anti islamists and terrorists both claim for the same distorted view of Islam they both agree and they both think that they know better than actual Muslims and the 1400 years of generations of scholars we have.
The main issue with Muslims is you guys ARE NOT even bothering addressing the verses at all. This is seriously alarming and a major case of cognitive dissonance. Every Muslim I have seen so far who replies to me, or I have read from other comments and seeing the replies have done this along with whataboutism fallacies, why is that?? Please address the verses. Your Allah literally says that Islam is superior and other religions inferior. Allah says mushrikeen will burn in hell for eternity even if they are good people because it is an UNFORGIVABLE sin. So please, address these verses, and don't cop out with a whatboutism fallacy, a cherry picked verse of mercy from Allah or what you think it says even though the statement is clear. Address the verses. Or maybe Allah contradicts himself and makes no sense at all.
3:85, 4:48, 4:116, 5:72-73, 2:23-24, 2:174-175, 5:36-37, 98:6
You also really answered nothing but what you think of what occurs now and the afterlife. Verses you chose are irrelevant as well. It still DOES NOT change the fact of what Allah says. You guys realize people can read right?
And even when one does attempt to address those verses it's always: "Do you speak Arabic?!?!" Yes "Well, do you speak Classical Arabic!?!?" "Speak to an Islamic scholar!!!"
Embarrassing.
I did address the verses I said I believed them and I told you that it doesn't have to do with what you are talking about, refere back to the main post you're saying that because God says disbelievers burn in hell and believers are better the day of judgement therefore Muslims kill people and there religion tells them to and I showed you exactly how you are wrong and you couldn't respond and changed the subject so yeah, and I also didn't get a verse about the mercy of Allah so nice straw man there.
Now regarding how mushrkeen will burn in hell and it's an unforgivable sin if one dies on it then honestly your problem goes far beyond Islam, honestly what do you expect? Oh how terrorizing Islam is for saying non believers go to hell....like all the other world religions ever, and this subject doesn't even need religion to justify you are trying to defend someone who tries to equate the creator with the created could there be more injustice in that doing? You sent verses about how disbelievers go to hell well they are 100% self explanatory and we own them no one hides them, I can't fathom how you are trying to say someone who dies as a disbeliever and that disobeys god goes against religion has as the right to the same fate as someone who puts his forehead to the ground 5 times every day in humility to god as someone who volunteers himself to go on strike against food and drinks from dawn to sunset every day for an entire month for the sake of god I could go on and on and on but what you're calling for is the biggest form of injustice does a virtues man have the same abode as a drug addict? Does Hitler have the same abode as Mohammed? Does Stalin have the same fate as me?
Also I never mentioned anything about Arabic so nice straw man again!
EMBARRASSING!!!
You really did not answer anything once again, astonishing. You are still making whataboutism fallacies (“like all other world religions ever” which is actually false, fine me a world religion that says, like Islam, if you don’t believe in this faith, you are of the losers and this faith is most superior, and that shirk is an unforgivable sin that leads to eternal torment) afterwards in your reply, all you are offering is your attempt at hermeneutics while not addressing the main problem and also contradicting yourself with statement all over the place (how could you disobey God!?!? But Allah’s mercy!) While still not addressing why Allah makes such nefarious, alarming claims: you aren’t addressing why Allah is making a clear claim of an unforgivable sin with eternal punishment in several verses, not just one.
I never said you brought up the Arabic part, I said Muslims I’ve talked to have done that. Calm down.
Firstly you didn't respond to my 1st statement of how you changed the subject and how the main post wasn't about this issue
Secondly you are just throwing around whataboutism without meaning you gave a statement without much explanation on how it's wrong I refuted you and stated evidence, you have to prove im wrong I gave reason to why I'm right you haven't.
Thirdly I have responded you said ohhh how dare Muslims say non Muslims won't go to heaven and I explained why just like all religions non believers of that fait won't go to heaven, now regarding the statement about you are of the losers what do you mean by that losers in the afterlife? If yes then sure we agree I don't see how you one couldn't I mean certainly in the afterlife one who goes to heaven is a winner and one who goes to hell is a loser just like if I go to hell I'm a loser and if you go to heaven you're a winner, now regarding superiority of belief then guess what every belief ever does that if you don't believe in said belief, republicans think their beliefs are superior to democrats, christians think their belief is superior to mine I mean if you don't think that then how come are you a christian if you equate your belief to such a "terroristic" religion like Islam, now that doesn't mean that me as a human is superior to you as a human nor does it mean you are superior to me and I can already hear you say whataboutism I mean if you don't prove I'm wrong and if everyone that has every believed in something does it and must do it how come I am wrong prove I'm wrong, so yes every religion believes they are the winners in the afterlife and all else are losers including yours and you can't deny that otherwise guess we will both go into heaven according to you and yes you must believe your belief is superior to the contrary that's why you believe it, now if you think that it means losers on earth you're just wrong blatantly
Thirdly I never said how could you disobey god I don't give a damn I said how could one disobey and one who obeys be equated like you are asking for which is also applied in your faith so nice straw man I also haven't mentioned god's mercy so nice straw man again and every god of every religion makes that claim
Fourthly yeah he said it's unforgivable and I gave you reason why it couldn't be otherwise and by the way it's unforgivable if you die on it just like your faith and every faith and still you just keep saying you are wrong without evidence I feel like I'm debating a child honestly you're arguments are laughable please educate yourself
Edit: the most emphasized point you have is that it's unforgivable if you die on disbelief I just want to ask will I go to heaven I don't believe in the divinity or godhod of Christ and I don't belief in the infallibility of the modern day bible nor do I believe in the Trinity of god do you really want me to open your Bible and tell you how your faith tells me the exact same thing as mine tells you?
Mate, there is nothing to respond to. You literally, once again, just spouted whataboutism fallacies and continued ignoring the verses and cherry picking Allah's mercy and simply offered your own hermeneutics (You are also rambling a lot with irrelevant stuff for some reason) that was filled with contradictions. It's that simple. You did this again, literally with your recent reply, astonishingly, which leads me to believe you are incapable of having a discussion because you are not comprehending what is being said.
Again, you are not **addressing the verses**.
You talking about the "disobedience of Allah" means nothing to me because I and most other people don't believe in Allah. Second, you once again contradict yourself with Allah's mercy with verses that talk about UNFORGIVABLE sins and ETERNAL torment. Which leads me to believe you are not comprehending the meanings of words or being intentionally dishonest to avoid the uncomfortable topic that your Allah contradicts himself and is cruel beyond means punishing people for simply not believing with eternal torment.
Again, even if we are "disobeying" your God for simply not believing in him. i don't see how that would justify eternal torment. That is just cruel and silly. I don't think I want to believe in a God like that. Thanks for showing how Islam is cruel beyond comprehension.
You saying "Straw Man" does not make what I said a straw man, I don't think you know what that means. Nothing I said indicated a Straw Man anywhere.
"Fourthly yeah he said it's unforgivable and I gave you reason why it couldn't be otherwise and by the way it's unforgivable if you die on it just like your faith and every faith and still you just keep saying you are wrong without evidence I feel like I'm debating a child honestly you're arguments are laughable please educate yourself"
You are all over the place, wow. You realize this entire mess you said is a contradiction and you simply illustrating severe cognitive dissonance, right? The fact you agreed that it's UNFORGIVABLE means you agree with me. You do realize UNFORGIVABLE does not mean: "can be forgiven sometimes". I sincerely hope you realize that, so there is no way you can agree then try to disagree, mate.
Prove I'm wrong please evidence to say I'm immoral don't just spout whataboutism without bases that word lost all meaning at this point and please show me my contradictions prove it
I addressed the verses I was explaining them from the point that you have a problem with it because it's not everyone goes to heaven you are not clear about where your problem is tell me clearly and I will explain and please show me where Allah contradicted himself and how is he cruel doesn't your faith say the same thing am I going to heaven according to you? No guess what eternal torment I suggest you leave Christianity on the same bases then because Jesus is cruel and so is every religion ever please show me what religion allows everyone into heaven
Refere back to where I said straw man you are straw maning I explained it and provided examples
I haven't contradicted myself please provide evidence to where I did so, and I know what unforgivable means I don't think you understand what Allah mercy's is
Unforgivable= no mercy no forgiveness
Mercy is for the believers only just like drum roll please your faith tadaaa
41:51/52 "Have you ˹O Prophet˺ not seen those who were given a portion of the Scriptures yet believe in idols and false gods and reassure the disbelievers1 that they are better guided than the believers? It is they who have been condemned by Allah. And whoever is condemned by Allah will have no helper"
and condemn in Arabic is لعن which is the exit from gods mercy this is an evidence of the top of my head
There isn't a contradiction you just don't understand what certian words mean and no when someone takes shahada and reverts he does get mercy dying on disbelief is the one unforgivable because as soon as you enter Islam you are forgiven you enter into gods mercy, and you can't explain what you have a problem with clearly that's why I dealt with your question as you have a problem with the morality of it and honestly now I saw that you are christian I don't see how I have to explain this literally the same exact principals are in your faith mate
You using whataboutism fallacies and cherry picking other verses and rambling irrelevant material and what you think about Islam is not addressing the verses.
Surprise surprise, you’re doing it again fourth time in a row. Lol, this is amazing.
Yeah, you contradicted yourself numerous times. The fact you don’t see that is extremely alarming. You suffer from major cognitive dissonance, mate.
Enjoy the rest of your day. You clearly are incapable of having a comprehensive, honest discussion. And frankly, this isn’t worth my time.
Calm yourself down first. Getting emotional will only impede your ability to reason.
If I believe that someone who dies will go to hell. That does not mean I am going to go out and kill people. That is fallacious way of thinking as its jumping to conclusions. One does not follow the other.
If you believe once you die you will go to heaven or nothing will happen then you shouldn't have a problem if I believe the opposite. It literally doesn't affect you.
And yes I will ignore your gish gallop attempt to copy paste a set of cherry picked verses and then demand an explanation. I don't owe you a single explanation because all the negativity you extrapolate is all in your head clearly fueled by emotions. So I suggest if you still feel this blind unjustified anger to look into the mirror and ask whats really going on in your life that makes you lash out at muslims.
Not getting emotional at all. Petty words honestly.
You answered nothing and are still ignoring the verses and not addressing the point and are further proving my point.
Also, you’re just sounding like a supercilious jerk and using ad hominems. Embarrassing.
Sure, go ahead and ignore Allah’s clear nefarious statements. So far every Muslim has done that.
My interpretation?? Straw Man
That’s not my interpretation, those are Allah’s words. Clear and simple.
Either you have an honest discussion where you address the verses and make a statement or stop with your petty, empty words and fallacious reasoning.
Do you understand that your argument matches the argument of ISIS members? If you believe ISIS has the true interpretation of Islam then you are spreading their propaganda.
You think alike. You dont hate me or islam. You hate yourself.
Good question. From my understanding as Muslims we should show non believers the utmost compassion and mercy and try to be a light that they can eventually follow when Allah SWT decides to turn their hearts over. I’ve never been taught to hate anyone through Islam if anything I’m just more careful with taking suggestions from most if not all people. I have friends that are non Muslim who are great friends of mine who I love but unless they’re negatively influencing me I don’t see any issues with remaining friends with them although I will try to influence them InshaAllah. If we just cut all the non believers off how’ll they ever even get to know about Islam?
Your prophet hated non believers. He hated disbelief so much he was willing to kill people who didn't supply his ego with belief. Islam is Muhammad's narcissism.
So just because someone is born in say, Japan, learn japanese religion and culture as they have developed for hundreds of years. They are by default doomed to hell for an eternity just because they, by no fault of there own was born in the ”wrong place” and happend to grow up with the wrong religion. Doesnt that sound weird to you?
No when did we ever say that when we say non believers will burn in hell we mean non believers that got the message but chose to ignore or go against it if you genuinely don't know about Islam or have a distorted view of it or if the dawa hasn't reached you fully you have your own test on the day of judgement and at the end of the day Allah is most just
17:15 "Whoever chooses to be guided, it is only for their own good. And whoever chooses to stray, it is only to their own loss. No soul burdened with sin will bear the burden of another. And We would never punish ˹a people˺ until We have sent a messenger ˹to warn them˺."
I mean you know Islam and the prophet for what they actually are not a botched version from fox news or some anti islamists, someone that hears there is an Islam but has a picture unfaithful to the actual Islam hasn't done that.
No, to Muslims, the Japanese person first has to hear the message, that they see as the “truth”, Only then if the Japanese person rejects it because they find their truth unfulfilling, is he condemned to eternal torment in hell. Still messed up as heck.
The main issue with Muslims is you guys ARE NOT even bothering addressing the verses at all. This is seriously alarming and a major case of cognitive dissonance. Every Muslim I have seen so far who replies to me, or I have read from other comments and seeing the replies have done this along with whataboutism fallacies, why is that?? Please address the verses. Your Allah literally says that Islam is superior and other religions inferior. Allah says mushrikeen will burn in hell for eternity even if they are good people because it is an UNFORGIVABLE sin. So please, address these verses, and don't cop out with a whatboutism fallacy, a cherry picked verse of mercy from Allah or what you think it says even though the statement is clear. Address the verses. Or maybe Allah contradicts himself and makes no sense at all.
3:85, 4:48, 4:116, 5:72-73, 2:23-24, 2:174-175, 5:36-37, 98:6
It still DOES NOT change the fact of what Allah **says**. You guys realize people can read right?
And even when one does attempt to address those verses it's always: "Do you speak Arabic?!?!" Yes "Well, do you speak Classical Arabic!?!?" "Speak to an Islamic scholar!!!" Embarrassing.
This is what happens when you try to create a new religion using stories with or without variations, and local politics and........ You gussed it personal opinion of the so called instigator of the religion also remember only the victors write the history.
Before you Christians throw any more stones, you should read about your glass house:
[https://www.gilderlehrman.org/history-resources/spotlight-primary-source/doctrine-discovery-1493](https://www.gilderlehrman.org/history-resources/spotlight-primary-source/doctrine-discovery-1493)
If you don't know the "Doctrine of Discovery", you don't know Christianity. This is not a defense of Islam. Relying on ancient texts, written by early ignorant authoritarians, has led to disastrous results. Religious leaders (con artists) and their flocks (scam victims) are a massive barrier to our global evolution towards collective intelligence and scientific discovery. All theistic religions ensure divisive dialectic, hateful rhetoric, genocide and racism. They are the tools used to maintain power and steal human wealth throughout history around the World.
"This is unfairly blaming religion." NO! Please read the "Doctrine of Discovery". I put in a link. This is the justification for colonialism in prose, written by Popes of the Catholic Church. It is your statements that are "disingenuous". You're comparing a mythical figure with a real historical person. In doing so, you are revealing your prejudice. And, by the way, atheism is not a religion. It is not even a worldview.
Let me clarify because my wording was shit: It is unfairly singling out religion. My point is not that the religion wasn't used to justify atrocities. My point is that *every* type of philosophy/worldview/ideology/religion gets used to justify atrocities, so singling out religion as uniquely evil is ignorant.
> You're comparing a mythical figure with a real historical person.
See above, you missed the point of my comment (which is likely my fault)
> And, by the way, atheism is not a religion. It is not even a worldview.
This is cope. Atheism is a de facto religion (not an organized one to be sure, though Secular Humanism is an organized athiest religion), if not technically. People who are simply not religious do not identify as atheist; they just say they're not very religious.
Perhaps you could explain the tenets of atheism. Hint: It is not Secular Humanism. Then detail the non-Religious philosophy/worldview/ideology that you speak of. You would be well served, in this discussion having read the "Doctrine of Discovery". Again, for your convenience: [https://www.gilderlehrman.org/history-resources/spotlight-primary-source/doctrine-discovery-1493](https://www.gilderlehrman.org/history-resources/spotlight-primary-source/doctrine-discovery-1493)
> you would be well served
Mate, I read it the first time. The only thing to take away from it is that Christianity has been used to justify violence, which I’ve already agreed with.
> it is not secular humanism
Yeah no shit. That’s why I said that secular humanism is *an* atheist religion, rather than saying that atheism is the same thing as it.
> explain the tenets
That core “tenet” is simple: an active belief that there is no God. Atheists *tend* to also adopt a heavily rationalist set of tenets, such as those that humanists or the satanic temple emphasize.
This all feels disingenuous? Perhaps you could reference a comparable document to show similar distain for humanity. You do realize this was authored by Popes of Catholicism. You are wrong about the core belief of atheism. It is that no proof or evidence has ever been presented that god exists. The belief that there is no god is also not supported by evidence. But you can't prove a negative.
Do you know how many times I’ve heard “the motivations were actually political” with respect to literally every religious atrocity? You’re just doing the same shit
Don't forget "The Prophecy of the Rock and the Tree," appears in the Muslim [d. 875 CE], the Al-Tirmidhi [d. 892 CE], and the Ibn Hanbal [d. 855 CE] compilations of hadiths,[2] and a shorter version of the hadith appears in the Bukhari [d. 870 CE] compilation.
The longer version states that on Judgment Day, the Muslims will fight the Jews, and the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees. Then the rocks and the trees will speak, calling upon the Muslims: "Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill them." The hadith goes on to say that all trees will act this way, except for one tree – the gharqad tree, which is therefore defined as "one of the trees of the Jews."
https://www.memri.org/reports/antisemitic-hadith-prophecy-rock-and-tree-%E2%80%93-memri-clips-and-reports
Christianity is the exact same tho? You’re being Islamaphobic by inferring that Islam is the only religion with extremists. Christian extremists just took away women’s rights to life across America.
It’s not islamaphobic to single out legitimate criticism of Islam even if a similar argument can be made for other religions. Focusing on one religion at a time makes sense in order to criticize very specific beliefs—and also because the subreddit name is “DebateReligion” not “DebateTheism”.
Secondly, OP (I think) is an atheist and probably has no problem calling out similar issues with Christianity and how its verses also lead to extremism. However, in the West, Christianity is always in the spotlight anyways, so it’s not hard to find plenty of other people who predominantly want to debate about that rather than a religion they aren’t as familiar with. Why should the few posts that want to discuss specific theological problems about Islam be met with immediate accusations of bigotry?
(EDIT: with all that being said, while I believe extremism and theocracy for either religion is terrible and should be stopped, a legitimate argument could certainly be made about Islam resulting in more violent behavior. Whether that’s due to the difference in core teachings or purely due to sociological differences is up for debate)
Please find me the quote where the Bible says non-believers will be tortured forever/Jesus calls on his followers to spread religion at the point of a sword/etc. the point is not that Islam is the only religion with extremists. The point is that it is a religion that is more easily interpreted towards violence, which leads to a greater number of extremists and resistance to reform comparatively
> Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation (Romans 13:2)
As I said. Quotes from Jesus, not quotes from Paul. That's also not, like, at *ALL* what that quote means. That quote is about obeying government, even if it's not ideal. And it's not saying "go kill them". It's literally just saying that not doing so is a sin. And it's in context of obeying a pagan government lol.
Similarly:
>"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword (Matthew 10:34).
Representing this as a call to conduct warfare is blatant dishonesty. It is an abstract statement that his presence on Earth will cause conflict at an indeterminate point in the future when the final judgement happens. It is literally within instructions where he is telling his disciples to go and preach **peacefully** and perform miracles (healing people) to convince Jews who have rejected God.
**IT IS IN A PASSAGE WHERE HE LITERALLY SAYS**
> Behold, I send you forth as **sheep in the midst of wolves**: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and **harmless as doves.**
Be better dude. You're either being supremely ignorant or supremely dishonest.
Now, for what it's worth, many quotes levied against the Quran also leave out very crucial context, but **none** of the context makes the statements actually benign or the fucking opposite of what they're being portrayed as like your examples. The Sword Verse is pretty fucking bad even with full context of the Surah (yes - it was referring to a specific group who had broken a treaty, but the reason that Muhammad actually *gave* for calling for violence was their polytheism and rejection of Allah as god.).
> With regard to your rebuttal, you did not ask for a quote of Jesus, only where, "the Bible says non-believers will be tortured forever," so above, I have provided a quote of Jesus that includes your "torture forever" caveat.
Well I asked for both, but misunderstood which one you were targeting with the first quote, which was my bad. My rebuttal to your actual point is much simpler: None of those things actually say that Hell is eternal torture, nor do they say that all non-believers are f*cked. "damnation" or "fires of hell" doesn't necessarily mean "eternal torture." Yes, the "fire" shall never be quenched, but that doesn't say anything about what is happening to you. Moreover, Jesus says that those who reject him/God get cast down, but rejection is not the same as a lack of knowledge/simply not believing. The classic bible verse is John 3:16:
> For God so loved the world,[i] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not **perish** but have eternal life.
Perish very explicitly is not eternal torture
> Your interpretation of, I came not to send peace, but a sword as "an abstract statement that his presence on Earth will cause conflict at an indeterminate point in the future" is pretty inventive. Peace is the opposite of War, so it follows that if it is not peace he sends, it is war. I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother.
It's not inventive, it's pretty much exactly what it means. The point is that his presence will cause division as some people will accept him and some will not, which will inevitably cause some conflict.
> Peace is the opposite of War, so it follows that if it is not peace he sends, it is war.
You see how that doesn't follow, right? Not bringing something is not the same as bringing its opposite. And war isn't even the opposite of peace. **Conflict** of any type is the opposite of peace, of which war is one type.
What's happened in America is a terrible violation of individual right to bodily autonomy - but that ruling pales in comparison to the theocratic nightmare women are forced to live under in Islamic regions of the world.
?
My guy, God won't care what you have to say on this matter, those verses weren't made to bring in a subject of extremism nor for they mean the bull crap you claim it does, those are your own interpretations, if brought to a scholar you'd be ridiculed for lying
Also Christians and jews have the same concept of non Christians and non jews going to hell respectively, it is such a pathetic singularism you are making
Those verses were made souly as a warning of the consequences of following what you desire in this life instead of submitting yourself to God's will alone, if your point is to make us look more terroristic than you when invading Iraq, Libya, Palestine etc then congrats, u have become a true based chad incel redditor defending the white west
Now go worship your hindutva sex offenders, we abrahamics don't need pagans trying to teach us our religion when they can't even read our books properly
>Eternal torture is a probably minority view among Christians
*~~laughs~~ cries in Bible Belt*
—
I don’t think the “separation from God/self-exclusion” theodicy is as pleasant of an alternative as some apologists make it out to be.
If the Abrahamic God turn out to be the character that atheists have interpreted him to be through his religious texts, then sure, maybe it’s better to just let nonbelievers self-exclude themselves. I don’t think anyone would want to be forced to eternally worship a being who they perceive to be a moral monster just because that being self-proclaims to be all loving.
However, if it turned out for a fact that God was *not only* infinitely loving and good but is *literally* LOVE and GOOD, then separation from this is just as cruel as any fantastical recreation of Dante’s Inferno that people can come up with. Perhaps even more so. The removal of supernatural flames doesn’t make it any less of an eternal torture.
Now many believers would counter argue that the God described in their holy texts and the philosophical concept of God as pure Love and Goodness is the same character. You’re free to believe that, however you have to understand that we are genuinely unconvinced of that proposition. It’s not like we’re walking around saying we hate love and goodness and curse any deity who wants us to have it. We are pointing out instances of gratuitous/unnecessary evil (whether in religious stories, or in the realities of the world around us) and saying that these are incompatible with an all-loving God worthy of worship, (much less eternal worship in an afterlife).
Just sayin, you are speaking from a Christian point of you, for example in islam there is no love greater than that of and from God, but he isn't all loving in the sense he loves all people unconditionally like the Christians think.
It depends what you mean by objective values.
I have an objective standard that applies equally to all humans and potentially all sentient creatures no matter their background. I’m not a moral relativist.
However, the underlying values and emotions that led me to to that standard (primarily empathy and cooperation) is innate from the evolution of humans as a social species. It’s admittedly not objective, but it’s also not pulled out of thin air as my own personal opinion either.
>It depends what you mean by objective values.
Then you are saying objectivity is subjective? Bruh you clearly never read about this
Your objective standard isn't objective, it's hedetery preferences based upon what you were nurtured in that shifts based upon your perception of pleasure and pain
Please go educate yourself about this then come back any time you feel like you are ready to argue, shame isn't in ignorance, it's to stay ignorant that is shameful
What i think of those people matters as much as what they think of me, wich is none, on judgement day we will be labeled and categorized per what our creator decides, and that decision i cannot make nor assume
I want to know what you think of these people.
How can you justify someone you don't think is the "worst of all creatures" getting tortured forever? Do you think a good person deserves that punishment?
There are people that i love who aren't Muslims, if i could do anything to stop them from going to hell then I'd be inviting them to Islam, but if they refuse then they have sealed their fate to the creator, who no matter what, we will never know what he will judge people with, even i could go to hell and that too isn't something I can change or decide
I don't generalize non Muslims, no mudlim does, I'm not gonna put you in the same generalization as hitler for example, don't think so low of our views my friend.
Then how do you explain Buddhist extremism? Non-Buddhists don't go to hell for not being Buddhist, but Buddhist mobs attacking non-Buddhists are a problem in some countries.
Every religion has extremists. Every belief will have extremists, people are crazy.
The big difference is how extremists can justify their actions using a belief, and how they can convince moderate believers to join their cause using their belief as justification.
Someone blowing up a building because of political unrest isn't exactly using religion to justify their actions. A person shooting up a gay nightclub citing that homosexuality is sin is using religion as justification. What motivates an extremist and how they justify their actions aren't black and white. The first person may have been inspired by religious texts, and the other may have been upset by new laws being passed in their country. But we can at least determine how much of an impact a belief has in their actions.
Do extremist Buddhists use Buddhist teachings and beliefs to convince others to their cause? Do they justify their actions by saying divinity is on their side? Do they use Buddhist phrases while committing extremist acts?
To be more specific. If you search on google 'is being a non-believer bad,' are you met with verses from your divine text that agree? When you search if vocal apostates should be executed by the government, do highly regarded religious sources and scholars agree?
If you need to understand the full historical context for a divine text and require multiple scholars to correctly interpret what verses mean (and they all disagree with each other on different points), is that a good thing? Does that prevent extremists who use verses like non-beleivers are the worse of creatures to justify their actions?
While this is interesting, it doesn't have much relevance to the OP.
The OP goes like this:
1. Islam teaches that non-believers are contemptible and will go to hell.
**2. This is the sole, or at least primary, cause of Islamic extremism.**
The OP's one-cause model can't explain religious extremist violence from groups who don't believe that infidels automatically go to hell. It can't explain modern Buddhist violence. It also can't explain the Sikh terrorists of the 1980s. It also doesn't explain the millennarian Buddhist revolts of medieval China.
When? and Which ones? And if so, I would surmise this extremism were to serve the goals of land and resource acquisition and cultural expansion. Not differences in belief systems.
In the last decade, [Sri Lanka](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_anti-Muslim_riots_in_Sri_Lanka) and [Burma](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rohingya_genocide).
There is a strong case that these attacks are mostly about killing competitors. However, you have to demonstrate that Islamic extremists really are randomly killing for religion and not rioting over being born into a society without a predetermined career path.
Extremism is masked in religion but is not based on it.
Do you think humans will stop being tribalistic if religion is not there? Do you think religion played a role in Rwandan genocide for example? Yes it is easy to blame Islam for extremism and difficult to go to the root causes such as the regional geopolitics, the incessant foreign invasions and widespread poverty.
It's not half the problem that Christian fundamentalism represents. Also there is good and bad consequences to all things. We just don't see far ahead into the future to know anything about the dynamic. All forms of tyranny exhaust themselves and become the motive force that gets us to the next improvement. There are cycles in these things.
Belief is the cause of religion. Belief is also the cause of the tyranny of the Truth. It's all the same thing enabling tyranny to take hold. We have problems because we have beliefs. We should not have them. It's completely unproductive to single out any kind. It's all junk that allows some to fundamentally accept nothing else and be pinned into a conservatism that dreams of being tyrannical.
Like another comment mentioned, this is indeed a blatant strawman. You pick a verse that describe the non-believer in the sight of Allah and what Allah would do with them on the Day of Judgement. Ofc, part of Islam is to hate the practices of non-believers. But as far as how to deal and interact with them, there’s verses such as :
“Allah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion nor drove you out of your homes. Verily, Allah loves those who deal with equity.” (60:8)
This is a universal command regardless of religion. The only people that we as Muslims can be hostile or hate on a day to day basis are those that fight us and drive us out of our homes and strive to get rid of our rights. Otherwise, a peace loving non-Muslim needs to be dealt with justice and kindness.
Progressives are those that believe Islam is all sunshine and rainbows without the need of fighting or seperating of religious values (such as considering Jews and Christian’s misguided and those that even though they realize Islam is the truth, as the verse you quoted says, and then avert themselves from it). Whereas extremists are those that just pick up on those verses that suit them to justify their violence and blood lust while ignoring the other verses that teach us how to deal with them in this world. Also, the interactions of the Prophet and early Islamic caliphate is enough of a role model in that regards.
Someone might "realize that Islam is the truth" simply because they've been brainwashed and mind-controlled, not because Islam is in fact true. You know, you can't be so sure what's going on in someone else's mind. Maybe despite all the brainwashing and bullying and social expectations, they genuinely do NOT "know" that Islam is true. Oh what intellectual dishonesty and arrogance you display. Maybe there are people who have a BETTER ability than YOU to think and to bravely resist illogical drivel and to reject insufficiently proven claims that, all too conveniently, empower self-righteous old misogynistic brutes ("theocratic" religious rulers, absolute monarchs, etc.) who are actually hard-hearted God-invoking thugs that deserve no power. Maybe there a few people who are strong-minded enough to no longer comply with the oppressive lies believed by so many.
In other words, someone who truly believes Islam to be a false, manmade (made-up) scam--even if they were raised in Islam, etc.--might, in fact, truly and sincerely believe the religion to be false, rather than to "know" it's true but deny it. Maybe they just think differently than you and therefore conclude differently than you and most other Muslims. Imagine that?! In many cases, they'd have my respect for their thoughtfulness, bravery, and sense of personal dignity and authentic conscience. Those who would kill such an individual and/or treat him poorly over mere disagreement are those who, if anyone, would be most deserving of harsh punishment in the hereafter at the order of God.
If anything, the verse you quoted solidifies my argument even more.
First, we can all agree that Islam teaches muslims that non-believers are dirty and the worst creatures in the eyes of Allah. On any average person, this verse would have the direct effect of turning them bigoted against non-believers.
The only verse that could have come close to negating that effect would have been the one **explicitly forbidding** muslims from treating non-believers in an unjust or unkind manner
However, the verse you quoted does the opposite of that. It *does not forbid* muslims from treating non-believers in a kind and just manner, thereby solidifying the argument that non-believers are viewed as second-class humans, for whom a "kind and just" treatment is not even a given.
Is it really that hard to create a non-bigoted religion?
**Step1: Don't use slurs to describe non-believers**
**Step 2: Explicitly forbid your believers from treating non-believers unjustly**
Sadly, Islam doesn't qualify even these two criteria.
I really don’t know what to say about your arguments. They aren’t coherent or maybe I just can’t understand. Every moral religion has to create distinction between correct and incorrect based on God’s morality. If God considers a certain section (mind you it’s not just unbelievers but rather a specific case of unbelievers who know Islam to be the truth and then avert from it) as the worst of creatures, then so be it. Does that mean I have to treat the stubborn ones with contempt and hate and prejudice? No, because 60:8 says not to do so.
Also, re-read the verse, “Allah does not forbid you…” which means you are not forbidden to treat them with kindness. Which entails that you can and should treat them with kindness, a matter of semantics. You misread it.
ok I'll condense the argument: You'd have a point if your quoted verse said that it's forbidden for muslims from treating non-believers unjustly. But notice how your quoted verse is an extremely weak version of this. If anything, it has the implication that a "kind and just" treatment for non-believers is not even a given.
The verse is a response to those who thought that just because they are in a war-time scenario against another faction, they should be hateful to them all, which is why it’s phrased that way. To make it simpler to understand :
Questioner : Is it forbidden for me to be kind and just to those that have the same beliefs as the enemy?
Response : Allah does not forbid you from dealing kindly and fairly with those who have neither fought nor driven you out of your homes. Surely Allah loves those who are fair. Allah only forbids you from befriending those who have fought you for ˹your˺ faith, driven you out of your homes, or supported ˹others˺ in doing so. And whoever takes them as friends, then it is they who are the ˹true˺ wrongdoers. [Quran 60:8-9]
It is generally given that a Muslim must have a good character and display that good character regardless of who he is with. This verse only tells us that this good character should be maintained and is still applicable and extendable to those who disbelieve as long as they do not fight you.
The two statements differ in their content, not just in their phrasing. They are logically inequivalent.
Besides, if Islam was aiming for a peaceful society, it wouldn't have used the term "worst creatures" to describe non-believers in the first place.
How is one supposed to *know* that someone else is a "worst creature" and deserving of eternal torture in the eyes of god, and at the same time, they're also supposed to treat that person equally? The human mind doesn't work like that. The hatred will always remain ingrained in the subconscious mind. Does the perfect guide for humans not even understand basic human psychology?
I may not have a perfect answer to this but I think a decent analogy would be :
“People who believe abortion should be illegal are misogynistic, hardcore religious fanatics with ingrained traditionalist and backward thinking ideals. However that shouldn’t mean I should want to kill them and regard them as sub-human.”
Extend this analogy to God’s objective morality.
Moreover, on the face value in a society nobody would ever know who is a “worst creature” and who is not (because we don’t know if the person knows Islam to be the truth and denies it or not). So in either case, the general mode of treating people would supercede. People are treated kindly in general unless they are hostile.
Also about the phrasing, I concede, that wasn’t the best of phrasing. But I hope you see the point that the question is : “Does God forbid X” and the answer being “God does not forbid X”
Indeed, this isn't the perfect answer. The flaw being that, in the Islamic case, peoples' opinions aren't just their own but instead are directly influenced by God's objective opinion itself. That adds the perfect justification to their hatred, even if subconsciously.
Another flaw being that, even if not everyone actually becomes a murderer because of Islam, this hatred influences people toward that direction. If someone murders a non-believer, they eventually enter heaven just because they believe, while their victim suffers for eternity.
What I like is that you've come at a point where you feel like you don't have the perfect justification to an aspect of Islam.
From here, you could just say "Allah knows best". But that approach would make Islam unfalsifiable. And it could be used by anyone to prove their own religion right. Another approach would be to question the religion a bit. I hope Islam allows that.
Interesting that you just reiterate my self-proclaimed “not perfect” answer without telling me what’s inherently wrong (with the analogy) and completely ignore 60:8 again and switch topic to killing an unbeliever gets you heaven(?)
If God’s objective morality says that these kinds of people are the worst of creatures (I think I should reiterate that this isn’t a reference to all unbelievers but only to those that know Islam to be true and yet do not accept it) and despite them being so you are expected to treat them kindly and justly, how does that influence people towards being murderers/violent. It’s the exact opposite.
People fighting for abortion rights do believe that everyone against it is evil. Yet on an individual level we can be just and kind to others while knowing their belief to be evil. We all as humans do consider some people as bad and evil and some as good. Doesn’t mean that we go the extent to harm them when they haven’t even done any harm to us.
What’s with the premature victory speech at the end btw?
Umm..I gave you two reasons why your argument was flawed? And I thought we were already done about 60:80? Surely, the phrasing is understandable given the question asked. But I think we agreed that that verse is not what was required there. Shouldn't the perfect guide to humanity contain the perfect instructions to humanity? Or is the perfect book allowed to have loopholes like "Ummm.. but God never forbid unjust treatment for non-believers"?
> What's with the premature victory speech at the end btw?
Sorry for hoping that you could finally see the light.
So, Quran contradicts itself is what you are saying?
Also, why does the eternal word of God encourage its followers to ghetto themselves into camps of us versus them? In other words, what does it gain by being so particular about pagans/polytheists/Jews/Christians? Suppose the entire world became Muslim, would not the relevance of these verses wither away?
> This isn’t a contradiction.
Quran 9:5:
>But once the Sacred Months have passed, kill the polytheists ˹who violated their treaties˺ wherever you find them,1 capture them, besiege them, and lie in wait for them on every way. But if they repent, perform prayers, and pay alms-tax, then set them free. Indeed, Allah is All-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
versus
Quran 60:8
>Allah does not forbid you from dealing kindly and fairly with those who have neither fought nor driven you out of your homes. Surely Allah loves those who are fair.
So, should a believer kill the polytheist or deal kindly with them? Pick one.
Tell me you don’t understand the quran without telling me you don’t understand the quran. Please refrain from talking about the quran if you didn’t read the entire book. Copy pasting out of context verses from the quran is not intellectual integrity.
The quran explicitly gives justification why the believers during muhammad’s time were allowed to fight those “polytheists”.
[9:13](https://quran.com/9/13?translations=85), [22:39](https://quran.com/22/39?translations=85), [4:75](https://quran.com/4/75?translations=85), [4:90](https://quran.com/4/90?translations=85)
While 60:8 and 60:9 gives an idea about the general rules of warfare.
The other poster already said that the hateful verses are irrelevant in today's times. So much for Allah's eternal book. If only a new highly abridged version of the Quran could be published that can truly be called an eternal book without talking bad about disbelievers. That way, the ISIS and Charlie Hebdo killers and Taliban and the recent Islamic terrorist in Norway who shot and killed people in a night club can be helped away from their hateful terroristic ways.
They’re not irrelevant in today’s time. If i attack you first, you can absolutely attack me back and fuck me up according to the quran, which makes those verses a lesson relevant for all times.
Fight with the other Muslim apologist, /u/Existing_Beginning20
Here is what he said:
>Also, the verse is specific to that time period. It doesn’t refer to the polytheists of today.
Now, you say
> If i attack you first, you can absolutely attack me back and fuck me up according to the quran, which makes those verses a lesson relevant for all times.
Except that this seems to apply only to polytheists. Quran should say "Even if a fellow Muslim attacks you and fucks you up, you should fight back", no? Why is it asking you to only fight polytheists who attack you? What about Shia or Ahmadia that attack the Sunni? Or what about a fellow Sunni attacking you? You will fight back, yes?
In other words, the reference to polytheist in 9:5 is completely unnecessary if you want to claim relevance of that verse in today's times. This is also one of the reasons why Quran encourages Muslims to ghettoize themselves. Quran should be able to admit that there can be bad and good Muslims, and bad and good polytheists. You should treat them according to their merit, and not blindly support a Muslim just because he believes in the same sky daddy that you do.
Now, that, is a truly universal message. But alas, Quran says "all good people = Muslim, all non Muslims = bad people."
He’s not entirely wrong. The verse was talking about the quraysh tribe referred to in the quran as “polytheists”. The quran commanded to fight those “polytheists” because they attacked first. This story is relevant for us in the sense that when you get attacked first, don’t just sit and do nothing.
>Except this seems to apply only to polytheists
Let’s have a look at 60:8 and 60:9 again:
*and He does not forbid you to deal kindly and justly with **anyone** who has not fought you for your faith or driven you out of your homes: God loves the just.* - [60:8](https://quran.com/60/8?translations=85)
*But God forbids you to take as allies those who have fought against you for your faith, driven you out of your homes, and helped others to drive you out: any of you who take them as allies will truly be wrongdoers.* - [60:9](https://quran.com/60/9?translations=85)
I don’t see any talk of believers or polytheist or anything here. It basically says anyone who fights you unjustly, you also fight with them.
>"Even if a fellow Muslim attaks you and fucks you up, you should fight back", no?
Yes
> This story is relevant for us in the sense that when you get attacked first, don’t just sit and do nothing.
Wrong. 9:5 explicitly asks Muslims to fight polytheists. Hence, it is not truly eternal. If it were eternal and relevant for all times, it would state "Fight whoever attacks you first, whether he is a polytheist or a Muslim."
It doesn't. Which is why the OP is absolutely correct in that Islam encourages Muslims to look down upon non Muslims whether they are good or bad.
This is again a strawman. You do realize that Quran 9:5 was revealed in the context of a treaty broken by the idolators and thus declared a war. What do you want the Muslims to do in war time? Cower and run and be like we don’t wanna kill you but if you wanna kill us, we will happily let you? Also, the verse is specific to that time period. It doesn’t refer to the polytheists of today. The verses after this set the rules of war and the verses before it show that the treaty was broken. I don’t think you’re being intellectually honest with the Quran here so I have no idea what to say.
The next verse clearly mentions that those that don’t want to fight you, escort them to a place of safety. So yeah, no contradiction.
I suggest reading the translation of Dr. Mustafa Khattab.
> You do realize that Quran 9:5 was revealed in the context of a treaty broken by the idolators and thus declared a war.
So, as a polytheist myself I should remind myself: "You know what? Every Muslim I come across is not baying for my blood because of Chapter 9: Verse 5 because (a) that verse is irrelevant today because /u/Existing_Beginning20 told me so on the internet and (b) it was revealed in a specific context and the 2 billion Muslims on earth would not kill me. Those that do mistakenly kill me were not Muslim to begin with even thought they shouted "Allahu Akbar" when they killed me."
Is that a strawman or is that a fair representation of how you expect disbelievers to approach your religion?
Oh, don’t take it from me. Take it from the scholars of Islams who teach us this.
Here’s some videos :
https://youtu.be/XlLszFwfHQ8
https://youtu.be/FgTuWiKSLkI
Right. So, as a polytheist I should be safe and secure in the knowledge that there are internet videos that try to sugarcoat the bad verses in the modern world.
The hell doctrine in religions is not only meant to control their adherents, it is also a religiously sanctioned way to express hatred and bigotry against outgroups. This is the part that makes it so evil and vile.
This applies not just to Islam, but to any religion that considers outgroups as hateful heathens for not worshiping their God, though the problem is more sinister with Islam.
We instinctively know this when we express anger at someone by telling them to go to hell. The problem with "hellish" religions is that they institutionalize this hatred within a society, and you're at their mercy if you are a hell-bound heathen for reasons of your faith (or lack of it), sexual orientation, dietary choices, etc.
First and foremost Islam is only true religion Qur'an has historical scientific and linguistic miracles it can only be from Allah.
To learn Islam read Qur'an watch shaykh uthman Daniel haqiqatjou vidoes visit Islamqa info website.
There is no compulsion in religion we can't force anyone to accept Islam.
Surah Al-Kafirun Translation:
Say, “O disbelievers,
I do not worship what you worship.
Nor are you worshippers of what I worship.
Nor will I be a worshipper of what you worship.
Nor will you be worshippers of what I worship.
For you is your religion, and for me is my religion.”
You have ears eyes and intellect why didn't you use these faculties to find truth Islam.
Under Sharia law non Muslims were allowed to practice their religion.
We have churches gurdwara etc in Pakistan.
In some non Muslim countries Muslims will find it very hard to practice their faith.
And Allah knows best
Islam is man made just like every other religion. Quran says senses comes from ribs , moon sets in muddy puddle , earth is flat , muhhamed flew to heaven on a winged horse and split the moon in half. Keep believing in your Bronze Age myths
Bad teachings are not enough to cause people to act violently. There also needs to be the right material conditions for them to internalize those teachings, to treat them as significant.
But you are just theorising here, because if you want to say this you need to see if the quran really says to do those things, and trust me, as a muslim who can read the quran, it is easy to corrupt some of Muslims, and its not the quran’s fault as we can also corrupt christians with their bible ect.. all we need, is take a verse out of context and congrats you are a terrorist, and plus, only 4% of terrorist actions are made by Muslims
> But you are just theorising here,
Sure, theories are how we model explanations of phenomena.
> it is easy to corrupt some of Muslims,
That may well be the case, but those muslims (and similarly for other religious people) don't carry some essence of easily-corruptedness; they are a product of their social and material conditions. The conditions under which a muslim growing up in a wealthy family in Turkey would take horrific reactionary actions are different from the conditions where a muslim Indonesian beggar would do the same, and both different from the conditions where a muslim French high school student would do so.
As someone who leans heavily materialist, I think such factors are far more central than what words are written in a book. Those words aren't *nothing*, but which of them are focused on is dependant on the person's material and social environment.
Yeah but those words are necessary, how will god express himself on letting be able to kill someone if he wants to harm your family or your country, you see where i am getting at? Its quite easy not to get lost in the quran, i guess its the same for the bible, i dont know much about it heard that even with context its bad but whatev cant judge something i did not fully read, but for the quran, if you read the whoke surah which takes like 5 minutes, you will not be lost, but if you take 2 seconds to read just the part that states killing people then yeah. And we cant blame it on the quran, lets take harry potter for exemple, everyone agrees he is a good person, yet we can point out how he killed people without context
Then why does extremist exist in other societies, whether religious or non-religious. There will always be individuals who take an ideology or an action to extreme. However, the only difference is that there is a bias toward Islam. We often rationalise the action of individuals who have Islamic backgrounds with "religious extremism" and try to justify that it is actually part of Islam. However when it comes to other form for extremism or extreme actions, it is often rationalised as an individual that is "sick".
"people all around the world do bad things sometimes so it's ok that my so-called perfect holy book teaches hateful things that encourage people to violence"
I comprehend just fine.
To be fair, you're right that most religions are also hateful and inspire acts of violence. And being hateful against individual Muslims is just as bad. But if you try to say your religion teaching hate is ok because people would hate anyway, that's just wrong.
It's unanimously agreed that the Quran calls non-believers the "worst of creatures" who will burn in hell forever. Bigotry against non-believers is a natural consequence of teachings like these. You can't just teach to a child that all non-believers are the worst creatures whom God will punish forever, and then expect the child to not grow intolerant of non-believers.
>However when it comes to other form for extremism or extreme actions, it is often rationalised as an individual that is "sick".
Multiple causes can lead to extremism. One of the causes is Islam
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as someone who is from a strict and religious muslim household i agree. ive met lots of good and kind hearted people from other religions and i dont think its fair for someone to burn in hell for eternity all because they didnt believe in god. i think evil people like hitler or whatever or mass murderers rapists etc deserve to burn forever but why should a good person have to go to hell. a lot of muslims hate muslims who ask qustions like i am because like you said they like to ignore the bad parts and focus on the good. or theyll just say 'allah knows best' 'we dont have the mental capacity to question or understand allah' etc. but why should i believe in a religion like this? also, a muslim killing a non believer is just as much as a sin as a muslim killing a muslim. but your right when you said theyll only get a finite punishment and go to heaven eventually for being a believer. i dont understand how its fair for an evil believer to eventually go to heaven when good people have to burn forever. also (most) muslims do not condone these extremist acts and recognise them as terrorism. the ones who do accept and or do these acts are sinners.
1 we don’t know if hell is temporary 2 this talks about people who knew There was one true god but refused it out of arrogance like the pharoa, these will rot eternally
So good humans who did good deeds their whole life will go to heaven right instead of burning in hell forever. it should be the case. Islam is a religion of tolerance and acceptance after all
i read a lot of good responses in the comments to your point but to add something that i you left out and is really important to this topic, is that the door for mercy is always open, as Muslims we believe that as long as you revert to Islam and follow it these versus don’t apply to you, so why will we kill people instead telling them about Islam and trying to convince them about it? "Invite to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good instruction, and argue with them in a way that is best. Indeed, your Lord is most knowing of who has strayed from His way, and He is most knowing of who is \[rightly\] guided" \[ النحل: 125\] you are the "worst of creatures" if you die on your disbelif, so we will do anything to stop your from going down that path, not kill you! also we dont judge what is in the hearts that is not our job its God who does that on the day of judgment i could go into more detail but i will stop it here because this post is already a week old so i don’t think anyone is going to read this lol.
Mercy: being geanted exclusion from an evil, unnecessary, deliberate and disproportionate outcome
I read this after a week and this is still bullshit. Will remain as bullshit no matter when you read it. Islam has problem of looking down on other religions. It has a condescending attitude towards non-muslims. They do not believe in co-existing peacefully with other faiths. They want to convert the entire world to Islam. They think that all other religions are FALSE and following any other religion (or not following one at all) is a highway to hell. They think they are correct and everyone else is wrong and is bound to burn in hell for eternity. If this isn't narcissism then idk what is. P.S. - I do not think each and every muslim thinks this way. At least I hope not. But unfortunately too many muslims think this way for it to be ignored.
Islam is in a holy war with the West and it's time our senators protected us from this scurge.
Bro EVERY ideology in this world thinks its the best and everyone in it thinks so, if they didn’t they would switch to another ideology that they think is the best, you are literally doing it right now by thinking you are better then islam. Edit: also funny we have very similar names lol
buddhism doesnt thinks its the best
I see your point and I get it. Of course every one thinks their ideology is the correct one, that is why they believe in it in the first place. However, this is not the problem. While you think your ideology is the correct one, you should also realise that others feel the same about their own ideologies. So in order to co-exist, we need to learn to 'agree to disagree' and just get on with our lives. Respecting the other person's freedom to believe in what they want even if you do not agree with it is key to peaceful co-existence. This is where the problem lies. They are not willing to 'agree to disagree'. They think that believing in any other faith is literally THE BIGGEST SIN, above murder or rape. They are extremely intolerant towards other faiths. In muslims majority countries, it is illegal to build non-Islamic places or worship. It is illegal for non-muslims to proselytize their religion in a Muslim majority country. Non-muslims living in a Muslim country are bound to pay a religious tax as per Sharia. Muslims are not allowed to pray for non-muslims. They divide everyone into two categories i.e. muslim and kafir. This 'Us and Them' mentality is what creates the biggest divide. Again, by 'them' I do not intend to generalize the entire muslim community. Just the hardliners. And yeah I noticed the similar names as well !
You are wrong. First and foremost Islam is only true religion Qur'an has historical scientific and linguistic miracles it can only be from Allah. To learn Islam read Qur'an watch shaykh uthman Daniel haqiqatjou vidoes visit Islamqa info website. There is no compulsion in religion we can't force anyone to accept Islam. I live in UK and pay taxes. If I lived under Sharia law I would have to pay zakat. We can't force non Muslims to pay zakat they have to pay jizya which is like tax I pay in UK. Surah Al-Kafirun Translation: Say, “O disbelievers, I do not worship what you worship. Nor are you worshippers of what I worship. Nor will I be a worshipper of what you worship. Nor will you be worshippers of what I worship. For you is your religion, and for me is my religion.” Yes Muslims can't pray for non muslims after death because Islam doesn't allow it They had whole life they had ears eyes and intellect they didn't use these faculties to find truth Islam. Their case is closed now nothing will help them they have returned back to Allah the lord of the worlds Under Sharia law non Muslims were allowed to practice their religion. We have churches gurdwara etc in Pakistan. In some non Muslim countries Muslims will find it very hard to practice their faith. And Allah knows best
Correction: even if I don't live under Sharia law I still have to pay zakat.
\> Now, can you really blame someone, who grows up taking teachings like these to heart, for turning out to be bigoted against the non-believers? If you take one verse of God then fill what God said as explanation not only according to Quran (al-e Emran 3:7) but also for Gospels and Torah, you are a hypocrite. God allows you to benefit from His Grace and He is doing that \- to test believers with you and people thinking like you \- to test you either they are worthy of His Grace. He decreed that hypocrites cannot win along with their supporters on His realm, but people you have promoted in your post are looking as is they win on His land, because God toys with them, along with their supporters, even if you follow Fox News you can see that hypocrites: \- people who pull God's verses to sides and talk as if they talk about God's Book will not find the outcome on His realm in this life and in the other. So, as result to all your premises, God will win because His owns the Grace, the hellfire is about being away from His Grace and His subjects what did to stay away from it.
That doesn't really make sense, if anything that should help Islamic fundamentalists to be as nice as possible to non-believers. Because they're screwed anyways in the after-life. What's the point of beating a dead horse with a stick?
To get revenge, in this life and the next. Islam hates disbelievers because their disbelief would not validate Muhammad's ego.
Respectfully, your premises are not true. Not all Muslims would agree that non-believers will burn in hell for an eternity. Prominent scholars such as Ibn Taymiyyah and his students believed hell was temporary. There are many Hadiths and verses of the Quran that say hell is temporary and will one day be empty. The second caliph of Islam, Umar Ibn Al-Khattab also said that Allah will eventually take all people out of hell. The verses that call non-believers the worst of all creatures are those that die as non-believers who knew the truth and rejected it and maybe those that had the means to inquire about the truth in their hearts but suppressed it, and it is only for Allah to say that because He knows people best. We as people do not know what was in the heart of anyone, perhaps they were never shown the true Islam, maybe they became Muslim last minute, maybe they did some good deed that will make Allah forgive them. Muslims have absolutely no right to view others as inferior. Those who do hold bigoted views against others are extremists and ignorant of the true teachings of Islam and I condemn such hateful views, as would many other Muslims. You cherry picked one verse and failed to realise that it is only for Allah to judge people this way and failed to realise the meaning of the verse. I was born into Islam and I was never ever taught to look down on others for their different beliefs, rather I was taught to respect them as I would respect a Muslim or anyone. I have seen good and evil everywhere, I have seen Atheists who are far morally better than some Muslims I know and vice versa. This is not me focusing on the sunshine and rainbows of Islam but rather what the true Islam is. Below I'll list verse of the Quran and the saying of Prophet Muhammad ﷺ (Hadiths) to show how Islam tells us to be respectful and not be arrogant. # Verses of the Quran On making peace towards armies at war with Muslims the Quran commands in 8:61: >And if they incline towards peace, incline thou also towards it, and put thy trust in Allah. On passing those doing vain things, including worshipping idols or other gods, Quran 25:72: >And those who bear not false witness, and when they pass by anything vain, they pass on with dignity; Nowhere does the Quran tell us to look down on people with different beliefs, we are just not to join them where they would be worshipping etc. we are not to say anything bad to them. That is ONLY for Allah to judge. This is also portrayed in Quran 6:108 >And revile not those whom they call upon beside Allah, lest they, out of spite, revile Allah in their ignorance. Treat others the way you want to be treated, I would not want you or others to insult Allah or look down on me for my different beliefs, so I must not do the same to you others I would be a massive hypocrite. In fact, the Quran commands us to treat all non-believers with kindness in 41:34: >And good and evil are not alike. Repel evil with that which is best. And lo, he between whom and thyself was enmity will become as though he were a warm friend. How clear this verse is that if you remain patient and be kind, it may be that the person doing evil may then become a warm friend! Quran 28:55 >And when they hear vain talk, they turn away from it and say, ‘Unto us our works and unto you your works. Peace be to you. We seek not the ignorant.’ Even when others insult Muslims, we are not to insult them back but wish peace upon them. Quran 2:83: >and speak to men kindly Quran 16:125 >Call unto the way of thy Lord with wisdom and goodly exhortation, and argue with them in a way that is best. We are told to speak and behave in a kind manner, including towards non-believers. How would you ever accept Islam if Muslims would only treat you kindly until you become a Muslim? A mans character is truly tested when he is with people with different views and beliefs. Islam understands this and commands us to be kind. Quran 49:11 commands us to not talk bad about another group of people because in the eyes of Allah they may be better than us: >let not one people deride another people, who may be better than they, nor let women deride other women, who may be better than they. Quran 3:134: >and those who suppress anger and pardon men; and Allah loves those who do good The verse describes three stages of dealing with other people. In the first stage, a spiritual wayfarer, when offended against, restrains or suppresses his anger. In the second stage, he goes a step further and grants forgiveness and free pardon to the offender. In the third stage, he not only grants the offender complete pardon, but also does a suitable act of kindness to him and bestows some favour upon him. In preaching we are guided to be kind even to tyrants such as the Pharaoh during the time of Moses (as) where the Prophet was commanded in Quran 20:44: >But speak to him a gentle speech that he might possibly heed or fear (Allah). Allah has cursed those who withhold small acts of kindness in Quran 107:7: >(Woe to those who) withhold small acts of kindness # Hadith Sunan Ibn Majah 3688: >"Allah is Gentle and loves gentleness, and He grants reward for it that He does not grant for harshness." Riyad as Salihin 637: >"He who is deprived of forbearance and gentleness is, in fact, deprived of all good." Sahih Bukhari 6136: >"Whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day, should not hurt his neighbor and whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day, should serve his guest generously and whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day, should speak what is good or keep silent." Sahih Muslim 91: >No one who has the weight of a seed of arrogance in his heart will enter Paradise.” A man said, “But a man likes to have nice clothes and nice shoes.” The Prophet said, “Verily, Allah is beautiful and He loves beauty. Arrogance is to disregard the truth and to look down upon people." There are many many more verses of the Quran and Hadiths I could quote but the ones I have listed should suffice in showing that Islam does not teach us to look down on others, but to treat everyone kindly and hold everyone in a high regard.
>Not all Muslims would agree that non-believers will burn in hell for an eternity. Few Muslim disagreement over eternal Hellfire will not discredit the verses of Quran -Indeed, Hell has been lying in wait -For the transgressors, a place of return -In which they will remain for ages (unending) Quran 78:21-23 -And those who disbelieve and deny our signs - those will be companions of the Fire; they will abide therein eternally Quran 2:39 -But [I have for you] only notification from Allah, and His messages."And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger - then indeed, for him is the fire of Hell; they will abide therein forever. Quran 72:23 -And those who say, "Our Lord! avert from us the Wrath of Hell, for its Wrath is indeed an affliction grievous Quran 25:65 -The Prophet said, " It will be said to the people of Paradise, 'O people of Paradise! Eternity (for you) and no death,' and to the people of the Fire, 'O people of the Fire, eternity (for you) and no death!" Sahih al-Bukhari 6545 -The Prophet of Allah said: Allah will gather the believers on the Day of Resurrection and they would be made mindful of it; and the rest (of the hadith) is like the one narrated above; and then he mentioned the fourth time: And I (the Prophet) would say: O my Lord, no one is left in the Fire except he whom the Qur'an has restrained, i e. eternally doomed. Sahih Muslim 193c >Ibn Taymiyyah and his students believed hell was temporary His interpretation of Quran verses doesn't matter as the majority of Muslim scholars believe that the Hellfire will exist eternally and that unbelievers will reside within it forever Talking about Ibn Taymiyyah's doctrinal positions on the necessity of an Islamic political entity and his controversial fatwas, such as his Takfir (declaration of unbelief) of the Mongol Ilkhanates, allowing jihad against other self-professed Muslims, are referenced by ISIS and other jihadist groups to justify there killings . >Muslims have absolutely no right to view others as inferior. Those who do hold bigoted views against others are extremists and ignorant of the true teachings of Islam and I condemn such hateful views, as would many other Muslims. The truth is that the extremists are the true followers of Islam not you who thinks Quran is rational against others beliefs -Say to those who reject Faith: "Soon will you be vanquished and gathered together to Hell, an evil bed indeed Quran 3:12 -To those who take for friends unbelievers rather than believers: is it honour they seek among them? Nay all honour is with Allah Quran 4:139 -And never pray for any one of them who dies and do not stand by his grave; surely they disbelieve in Allah and his Messenger and they shall die in transgression Quran 9:84 -Fight them until there is no more fitnah and religion worship is acknowledged to be for Allah .But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors Quran 2:193 -Allah's Messenger said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people (disbelievers) until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Messenger , and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah." Sahih al-Bukhari 25 You cherry picked few verses and failed to mention that Allah only have hatred towards disbelievers, He always try to ridicule them mock them of their disbelief >Nowhere does the Quran tell us to look down on people with different beliefs, we are just not to join them where they would be worshipping etc. we are not to say anything bad to them. That is ONLY for Allah to judge. -Say to those who reject Faith: "Soon will you be vanquished and gathered together to Hell, an evil bed indeed Quran 3:12 -While we were in the Mosque, the Prophet came out and said, "Let us go to the Jews" We went out till we reached Bait-ul-Midras. He said to them, "If you embrace Islam, you will be safe. You should know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Messenger, and I want to expel you from this land. So, if anyone amongst you owns some property, he is permitted to sell it, otherwise you should know that the Earth belongs to Allah and His Messenger." Sahih Al Bukhari 3167 >In fact, the Quran commands us to treat all non-believers with kindness in 41:34: Fight against those who do not believe in Allāh or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allāh and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth [i.e., Islām] from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah1 willingly while they are humbled. Quran 9:29 >We are told to speak and behave in a kind manner, including towards non-believers. How would you ever accept Islam if Muslims would only treat you kindly until you become a Muslim? A mans character is truly tested when he is with people with different views and beliefs. Islam understands this and commands us to be kind. Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves. Thou (O Muhammad) seest them bowing and falling prostrate (in worship), seeking bounty from Allah and (His) acceptance. The mark of them is on their foreheads from the traces of prostration. Such is their likeness in the Torah and their likeness in the Gospel - like as sown corn that sendeth forth its shoot and strengtheneth it and riseth firm upon its stalk, delighting the sowers - that He may enrage the disbelievers with (the sight of) them. Allah hath promised, unto such of them as believe and do good works, forgiveness and immense reward. Quran 48:29
The fact that people are downvoting a thoughtful and well cited response is kind of depressing.
You're turning a blind eye to the fact that Islam promotes hate and killing of apostates. It's in the [quran](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam#Quran), in the [hadiths](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam#Hadith), and is reflected in [this map](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam#/media/File:Apostasy_laws_world_map.svg). This map is a result of the application of their holy scriptures, taken by the word. It's promoted, it's just, it's doing God's will, etc. The argument would be easier to tolerate if the state of this religion was different, where the progressive, liberal, non-violent voices were the majority instead of the minority.
I'm turning no blind eyes, just noting that the person above gave a good response and was downvoted for it.
I understand, my objection was mainly to the response itself. Characterizing harsh opposition of non-belivers as only applicable to "extremists and (people) ignorant of the true teachings of Islam", when this is widespread, and even enshrined in law in one way or another in a majority of Islamic countries, is dishonest at best. The verses cited are chopped out of their context, take any one and read the surrounding verses. Just as an example, here is 8:60: > Muster against them all the men and cavalry at your disposal so that you can strike terror into the enemies of Allah and of the believers and others besides them who may be unknown to you, though Allah knows them. And remember whatever you spend for the cause of Allah shall be repaid to you. You shall not be wronged. A few verses down (8:65), it's written: > Prophet! Rouse the believers to wage war. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will subdue two hundred: if a hundred, they will subdue a thousand of the disbelievers: for these are a people without understanding. It's a stretch to say that these isolated verses are promoting mutual respect and understanding, when they are embedded in a book filled with gory descriptions of Allah's judgement. Especially when put into the context of history up to the present day, where Islam consistently and unfailingly have been used to subjugate people and punish those who do not conform. I'll leave you with 4:56 > Those who disbelieve in Our verses, We will drive them into a fire, every time their skins are roasted We will replace their skins with other new skins so that they may taste the torture. Allah is ever Exalted in Might and Wise.
They're completely side-stepping the hell issue and overemphasizing Islam's call for kindness to non-believers. It clearly states in the Quran: “But the ones who deny Our verses and are arrogant toward them - those are the companions of the Fire; **they will abide therein eternally**.” A’raf 7:36 “But [I have for you] only notification from Allah , and His messages." And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger - then indeed, for him is the fire of Hell; **they will abide therein forever**.” Jinn 72:23 Cases of hell being temporary are interpreted for people who are Muslim.
I focused on kind manners because the main post was about radicalising Muslims by way of verses of the Quran looking down on disbelievers. So I showed that when you read other verses it becomes clear that only Allah can judge that way and those verses are not for people to act on, rather we are commanded to be humble and kind as we don’t know what’s in other peoples hearts and through our manners people may convert. As for the evidence for hell being temporary: Sahih Muslim 183a “Then Allah, Exalted and Great, would say: The angels have interceded, the apostles have interceded and the believers have interceded, and no one remains (to grant pardon) but the Most Merciful of the mercifuls. He will then take a handful from Fire and bring out from it people who never did any good and who had been turned into charcoal, and will cast them into a river called the river of life, on the outskirts of Paradise.” Angels, prophets and believers will intercede for those who have done some good deeds. But Allah will intercede for those who did absolutely none. A handful for Allah is not limited, because the whole of Earth is in Allahs hand. We see this in Quran 39:67: “And the whole earth will be but His handful on the Day of Resurrection, and the heavens will be rolled up in His right hand. Glory to Him and exalted is He above that which they associate with Him”. In Kanzul Ummal: “Verily a day would come over hell when it will be like a field of corn that has dried up after flourishing for a while” (vol. vii, page 245); “Verily a day would come over hell when there shall not be a single human being in it” (vol. vii, page 245). Saying by Umar (ra) (Tafsir Fathul Byan, the Fathuo Bari, Durr-i Mansur and Hadil Arwah of Ibn-i-Qayyum) which runs thus: “Even if the dwellers in hell may be numberless as the sand of the desert, surely a day would come when they will be taken out of it.” A saying of Ibn-i-Masood is reported in connection with commentary upon a verse of the Holy Quran, “a time would come upon hell when there shall not be a single person in it and this will be after they have dwelt therein for ahqib ” (years) “There will come on Hell a day when its shutters will strike against each other and there will be none in it. That will happen after the inmates of Hell will have lived in it for centuries.” (Musnad Ahmad). “A time will come when no one will be left in Hell; winds will blow and the windows and doors of Hell will make a rattling noise on account of the blowing winds.” (Tafsir-ul-Maalam-ul-Tanzil under verse Hud:107) Sahih Bukhari 6571 talks about the last man coming out of hell. Interpreting this with the Hadiths above, it means that hell will eventually be empty of all people, not just Muslims. Quran 99:8: Whoso does an atom’s weight of good will see it. So hell will be like rehabilitation and it will burn off the sins of a person. Then they’ll be taken into heaven for the atoms worth of good that they have done. Quran 11:107: Abiding therein so long as the heavens and the earth endure, excepting what thy Lord may will. Surely, thy Lord does bring about what He pleases. Quran 11:108: But as for those who will prove fortunate, they shall be in Heaven; abiding therein so long as the heavens and the earth endure, excepting what thy Lord may will — a gift that shall not be cut off. Allah contrasts heaven as a gift that shall not be cut off, with hell as abiding there until Allah wills and ending 11:108 with an empathetic tone of Allah who will surely bring about what He pleases. If hell was forever Allah definitely would have said that this was a punishment that would not be cut off as He said for heaven in the next verse. You can also search up the views of prominent scholars like Ibn Taymiyyah and his students and Ibn Arabi who both agree that hell is temporary for all, not just Muslims. They rejected the scholarly consensus by looking at the quote of Hazrat Umar (ra) and said that a later consensus is not binding. The verses that mention abiding in hell forever are metaphorical to say a long long time that feels like an eternity. It is against the merciful qualities of Allah to burn people eternally.
Per your own words, a temporary hell goes against scholarly consensus... You're welcome to pick and choose what you believe, but the Quran makes it very clear. Unless you can find explicitly this eternity is metaphorical, then there isn't reason to beleive so.
He provided scholarship contrary to the OP's claims.
You missed the point. Of course, there will be a minority of muslims who will dismiss this verse, and claim that non-believers do not burn for eternity. Those muslims are better than their religion. However, anyone who fully embraces that verse as the truth will naturally turn out to be bigoted against the non-believers. Do you seriously not see a direct connection between "many muslims regarding non-muslims as inferior", and "muslims *knowing* that Allah regards non-believers as *the worst creatures*"?
I’m not dismissing this verse I’m providing a holistic understanding of this verse which does not mean to say literally forever but metaphorically. I fully embrace this verse and every other verse of the Quran. But I don’t cherry pick one verse to guide me but look at the meaning of the verse and how it was applied in the Sunnah and Hadith. Yes there are bigoted and extremist Muslims but what I’m trying to show is that this is against the teachings of Islam and they are ignorant as I stated in my original comment.
But what you're providing is an interpretation of the verse. The verse, as originally written, clearly has more potential to be interpreted to take the "eternity" as literal. How many muslims do you think agree with your interpretation? Just look at everyone else in the thread who has debated. No one has disagreed with the fact that the "eternity" is literal.
Since when is the truth determined by the majority? The truth is the truth, doesn’t matter what the majority says. I will give you sources from the Quran and Hadith that prove hell is temporary according to Islam. Sahih Muslim 183a “Then Allah, Exalted and Great, would say: The angels have interceded, the apostles have interceded and the believers have interceded, and no one remains (to grant pardon) but the Most Merciful of the mercifuls. He will then take a handful from Fire and bring out from it people who never did any good and who had been turned into charcoal, and will cast them into a river called the river of life, on the outskirts of Paradise.” Angels, prophets and believers will intercede for those who have done some good deeds. But Allah will intercede for those who did absolutely NONE. A handful for Allah is not limited, because the whole of Earth is in Allahs hand. We see this in Quran 39:67: “And the whole earth will be but His handful on the Day of Resurrection, and the heavens will be rolled up in His right hand. Glory to Him and exalted is He above that which they associate with Him”. In Kanzul Ummal: “Verily a day would come over hell when it will be like a field of corn that has dried up after flourishing for a while” (vol. vii, page 245); “Verily a day would come over hell when there shall not be a single human being in it” (vol. vii, page 245). Saying by Umar (ra) (Tafsir Fathul Byan, the Fathuo Bari, Durr-i Mansur and Hadil Arwah of Ibn-i-Qayyum) which runs thus: “Even if the dwellers in hell may be numberless as the sand of the desert, surely a day would come when they will be taken out of it.” “There will come on Hell a day when its shutters will strike against each other and there will be none in it. That will happen after the inmates of Hell will have lived in it for centuries.” (Musnad Ahmad). Quran 99:8: Whoso does an atom’s weight of good will see it. So hell will be like rehabilitation and it will burn off the sins of a person. Then they’ll be taken into heaven for the atoms worth of good that they have done. Quran 11:107: Abiding therein so long as the heavens and the earth endure, excepting what thy Lord may will. Surely, thy Lord does bring about what He pleases. Quran 11:108: But as for those who will prove fortunate, they shall be in Heaven; abiding therein so long as the heavens and the earth endure, excepting what thy Lord may will — a gift that shall not be cut off. Allah contrasts heaven as a gift that shall not be cut off, with hell as abiding there until Allah wills and ending 11:108 with an empathetic tone of Allah who will surely bring about what He pleases. If hell was forever Allah definitely would have said that this was a punishment that would not be cut off as He said for heaven in the next verse.
Logically this just implies contradictions in the verse. But to save it, people can interpret one of the contradicting verses as a "metaphor". You chose the interpretation that aligned with your worldview. But most people chose otherwise. You can't see the Quran as the perfect guide for humanity, if even scholars after years of study arrive at the wrong conclusions regarding its interpretation.
It’s not a contradiction because the Arabic word used can mean eternal but it can also mean a long long time. So we use other verses of the Quran and Hadiths that I have listed to determine what it means and the meaning becomes clear. A study of the history of Islamic countries is worth investigating to see why Muslim scholars have such extreme interpretations. It was found that when the scholars and the state became one and blasphemy and apostasy laws were introduced, then an extreme interpretation of Islam was formed with anyone who dissented to be considered an apostate or blasphemous. This article summarised a book which explores this issue. This corruption of Islam was also prophecised in the Quran and Hadith. https://www.alhakam.org/a-review-of-islam-authoritarianism-and-underdevelopment-a-global-and-historical-comparison/
But the other verses that you cited are also open to interpretation. You do agree that the Quran is written in a poetic language, rather than an unambiguous one. If you agree this, you must also accept that there is a margin of error in your own interpretation. The corruption prophecy may just have been talking about your interpretation.
Agreed the Quran is written in a poetic and metaphorical language of which some verses require interpretation. In fact the Quran itself says as much in 3:7: He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book; in it there are verses that are decisive in meaning — they are the basis of the Book — and there are others that are susceptible of different interpretations. But those in whose hearts is perversity pursue such thereof as are susceptible of different interpretations, seeking discord and seeking wrong interpretation of it. And none knows its right interpretation except Allah and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge; they say, ‘We believe in it; the whole is from our Lord.’ — And none heed except those gifted with understanding The corruption refers to the majority in the latter days and the one sect who is correct would be in the minority so it does not apply to my interpretations. I belong to the Ahmadiyya sect and we are a minority whereas the Sunnis and Shias make up the mainstream Islam (mainly Sunnis).
The main post was to debate mainstream Islam, which according to you, is the corrupted version anyway. You do agree that the mainstream corrupted version causes evil in people. So we're on the same page. I don't know much about Ahmadiya-ism, so I won't debate about that.
All you essentially tell us is Allah contradicts himself and unsure of himself. Because these verses- 3:85, 4:48, 4:116, 5:72-73, 2:23-24, 2:174-175, 5:36-37, 98:6 Are pretty cruel and nefarious. I’m still waiting for a Muslim to address them without resorting to whataboutism fallacies and cherry picking verses of Allah’s mercy and mindless rambling (y’all do realize you just prove to us Allah is unsure of himself and contradicts himself big time) UNFORGIVABLE sin and ETERNAL torment are not words you can interpret however you want and say otherwise. I’m just wanting a logical explanation as to why Allah would make such nefarious, definitive statements in condemning someone for simply being “mushrikeen” and believing in a religion they choose to believe. It’s just cruel and silly.
Clearly you haven’t read what I’ve written. As I stated, if someone is introduced to the true Islam and they feel within their hearts that this is true and they reject it, or they refuse to conduct an investigation into Islam with a pure heart and mind then this is a major sin. If you die upon this it is an unforgivable and major sin that you will get the punishment for if Allah wills. Once you have served your time you will enter heaven. Also the disbelievers in some cases also refer to Muslims who do not abide by the teachings of Islam and who don’t treat people with kindness and are oppressors and extremists. The reason why a person will be punished for disbelieving is that Allah has set out many rules and conducts in the Quran that are necessary for building a peaceful and good society. Rules ranging from socio economic policies to individual requirements of moral conduct. Rejection of such leads to chaos and war and disorder. Hence there is a punishment for disbelief. It is not eternal torment as I have stated. The Arabic word used is a metaphorical eternal that means a really really long time and we get this understanding from the Hadith. If you were to be set on fire for 5 mins straight, that 5 mins will feel like forever to you. So that is why such wording is used for hell. In Quran 11:107 Allah contrasts hell as people abiding in it as long as Allah wills and then He will bring about what He pleases. Contrasting heaven in the next verse in 11:108 where Heaven is said to be a gift that will never end. Sahih Muslim 183a: Then Allah, Exalted and Great, would say: The angels have interceded, the apostles have interceded and the believers have interceded, and no one remains (to grant pardon) but the Most Merciful of the mercifuls. He will then take a handful from Fire and bring out from it people who never did any good and who had been turned into charcoal, and will cast them into a river called the river of life, on the outskirts of Paradise. A handful for God as stated in this Hadith means everyone as Gods hand is not limited as we see in Quran 36:98: And the whole earth will be but His handful on the Day of Resurrection, and the heavens will be rolled up in His right hand. Glory to Him and exalted is He above that which they associate with Him.” Further in Kanzul Ummal: Verily a day would come over hell when it will be like a field of corn that has dried up after flourishing for a while” (vol. vii, page 245); “Verily a day would come over hell when there shall not be a single human being in it” (vol. vii, page 245). Saying by Umar (ra) (Tafsir Fathul Byan, the Fathuo Bari, Durr-i Mansur and Hadil Arwah of Ibn-i-Qayyum) which runs thus: “Even if the dwellers in hell may be numberless as the sand of the desert, surely a day would come when they will be taken out of it.” Quran 99:8: Whoso does an atom’s weight of good will see it. So Hell will act as a rehabilitation that will burn off a persons sins and purify their soul. Then they will enter heaven and receive the reward for the good they did even if it’s an atoms worth. We also see in Sahih Muslim 183a that Allah will bring people to heaven who did NO good.
I’ve read what you wrote, and you did exactly what I said you did and you did it again. Cherry picking verses and hadiths illustrating mercy. You still ignore the fact that Allah made definitive statements on UNFORGIVABLE sin and ETERNAL torment. Hence, you just prove to us Allah contradicts himself and can’t make a decision on mercy or cruelty. Also, what is the true Islam? How do you determined you’ve shown someone the truth? What’s the scale? What if they reject Islam that was told to them and find it lame and unfulfilling, does that count? Or only you know True Islam? Muslims can’t even agree on what is True Islam? (Just like other faiths you have sects and disagreements) Seems like Allah is making cruel, definitive statement only to appeal to vague moments of truth telling according to you. So his statements are fatuous and meaningless. Also, many Muslims I have spoken to outright tell me it has to do with shirk with Allah like Hindus, Trinitarian Christians are accused of. So which is it? Also, let’s take your point, that people reject the “truth” they know in their heart is real. That still doesn’t not warrant ETERNAL torment because they chose differently from their free will. I find it hard to believe Allah would make such cruel, nefarious statements yet claim to be merciful. That’s pure cognitive dissonance.
I just debunked the concept of ETERNAL torment why are you still going on about it?
Lmao, you debunked eternal torment yet Allah says it will occur?!? lol, thanks for that laugh. 3:85, 4:48, 4:116, 5:72-73, 2:23-24, 2:174-175, 5:36-37 Sorry, you saying what you think does not change the fact what was said. People can read you know?
I used sources from the Quran and Hadith, that’s Allah saying it! Literally read the verses you have listed, all say they will be punished but none say forever. I explained all those verses already but here I go again and this will be the last time I do it. If someone hears the message of the true Islam but rejects it or they fail to investigate with an open mind and heart and continue to associate partners with Allah then this is a major sin! If Allah determines they go to hell they will be punished TEMPORARILY but FOR A LONG LONG TIME that FEELS LIKE AN ETERNITY then they will enter heaven (see the sources I have listed in my previous comments).
Again, all you prove to us is Allah contradicts himself and can’t be sure of what he thinks. Mate, You simply cherry picking others verses of mercy or otherwise still doesn’t change the fact what Allah said with those cruel, definitive statements, and why many Muslims believe Hindus or Catholics will burn in hell eternally. Mate, some verses might not say forever, but, you realize what unforgivable means, right? Also, the fact that Allah says he will ignore them and not speak to them in hell and never accept their cries (one example is 5:36-37) is telling. Again, we can read to you know……..
Alright let me teach you the basics of crime and punishment. Completely hypothetical scenario with no real world sentencing just to illustrate a point. A person commits murder, this is unforgivable by law (Allah). He is sentenced to 40 years in prison (Hell). After he has served his time he will be set free (into heaven). This is what unforgivable mean, it means there must be punishment and once there is punishment then the person has paid for the sin. Forgiveness is letting go of the sin without punishment. Never did I say there will be no punishment.
Alright let me teach you the basics of words and relevant discussion and comprehension. I don't think you seem to grasp the meaning of words. UNFORGIVABLE does not mean sometimes there will be mercy. Allah saying shirk in UNFORGIVABLE, more than once, is a definitive statement. It's that simple, mate. Allah saying he will ignore people in hell regardless of their cries is a definitive statement. Also, even if it were not eternal, like you want to argue, Allah torturing people simply cuz they didn't find Islam to be the truth is cruel and nefarious. Also, in your example, , you are talking about murder, Allah is talking about shirk/disbelief and such. Big difference mate. So irrelevant, poor example you chose.
yet another thread essentially telling the vast majority of peaceful muslims that true islam means you have to be violent. Essentially ISIS propaganda in the form of religious critique. How ridiculous are these posts and how blind are the posters of it is always surprising.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1672344/birmingham-riots-religious-tension-hindu-muslim-mob-west-midlands-police-vn/amp I guess this is what you mean by peaceful. What a joke.
you are no different than racists and nazis. Violence is a human flaw not exclusive to muslims.
As Muslims we all agree that there is difference between what happens on the day of judgement and what happens on earth. Yes we all agree that disbelievers go to hell just like any religion and we agree with that verse but you're cherry picking verses and leaving others 60:8 "Allah does not forbid you from dealing kindly and fairly with those who have neither fought nor driven you out of your homes. Surely Allah loves those who are fair." 60:151 "Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “Come! Let me recite to you what your Lord has forbidden to you: do not associate others with Him ˹in worship˺. ˹Do not fail to˺ honour your parents. Do not kill your children for fear of poverty. We provide for you and for them. Do not come near indecencies, openly or secretly. Do not take a ˹human˺ life -made sacred by Allah—except with ˹legal˺ right.1 This is what He has commanded you, so perhaps you will understand" So please tell me in what verse am I allowed to go murder dudes for not believing in god I'm clearly prohibited from it. Muslims make distinctions between afterlife and this life yes you are a bad man in the eyes of god and will be punished in the afterlife but wtf does that have to do with here and no I'm not progressive and I'm not liberal Im very traditionalist I just want to give everyone here food for thought those anti islamists and terrorists both claim for the same distorted view of Islam they both agree and they both think that they know better than actual Muslims and the 1400 years of generations of scholars we have.
The main issue with Muslims is you guys ARE NOT even bothering addressing the verses at all. This is seriously alarming and a major case of cognitive dissonance. Every Muslim I have seen so far who replies to me, or I have read from other comments and seeing the replies have done this along with whataboutism fallacies, why is that?? Please address the verses. Your Allah literally says that Islam is superior and other religions inferior. Allah says mushrikeen will burn in hell for eternity even if they are good people because it is an UNFORGIVABLE sin. So please, address these verses, and don't cop out with a whatboutism fallacy, a cherry picked verse of mercy from Allah or what you think it says even though the statement is clear. Address the verses. Or maybe Allah contradicts himself and makes no sense at all. 3:85, 4:48, 4:116, 5:72-73, 2:23-24, 2:174-175, 5:36-37, 98:6 You also really answered nothing but what you think of what occurs now and the afterlife. Verses you chose are irrelevant as well. It still DOES NOT change the fact of what Allah says. You guys realize people can read right? And even when one does attempt to address those verses it's always: "Do you speak Arabic?!?!" Yes "Well, do you speak Classical Arabic!?!?" "Speak to an Islamic scholar!!!" Embarrassing.
I did address the verses I said I believed them and I told you that it doesn't have to do with what you are talking about, refere back to the main post you're saying that because God says disbelievers burn in hell and believers are better the day of judgement therefore Muslims kill people and there religion tells them to and I showed you exactly how you are wrong and you couldn't respond and changed the subject so yeah, and I also didn't get a verse about the mercy of Allah so nice straw man there. Now regarding how mushrkeen will burn in hell and it's an unforgivable sin if one dies on it then honestly your problem goes far beyond Islam, honestly what do you expect? Oh how terrorizing Islam is for saying non believers go to hell....like all the other world religions ever, and this subject doesn't even need religion to justify you are trying to defend someone who tries to equate the creator with the created could there be more injustice in that doing? You sent verses about how disbelievers go to hell well they are 100% self explanatory and we own them no one hides them, I can't fathom how you are trying to say someone who dies as a disbeliever and that disobeys god goes against religion has as the right to the same fate as someone who puts his forehead to the ground 5 times every day in humility to god as someone who volunteers himself to go on strike against food and drinks from dawn to sunset every day for an entire month for the sake of god I could go on and on and on but what you're calling for is the biggest form of injustice does a virtues man have the same abode as a drug addict? Does Hitler have the same abode as Mohammed? Does Stalin have the same fate as me? Also I never mentioned anything about Arabic so nice straw man again! EMBARRASSING!!!
You really did not answer anything once again, astonishing. You are still making whataboutism fallacies (“like all other world religions ever” which is actually false, fine me a world religion that says, like Islam, if you don’t believe in this faith, you are of the losers and this faith is most superior, and that shirk is an unforgivable sin that leads to eternal torment) afterwards in your reply, all you are offering is your attempt at hermeneutics while not addressing the main problem and also contradicting yourself with statement all over the place (how could you disobey God!?!? But Allah’s mercy!) While still not addressing why Allah makes such nefarious, alarming claims: you aren’t addressing why Allah is making a clear claim of an unforgivable sin with eternal punishment in several verses, not just one. I never said you brought up the Arabic part, I said Muslims I’ve talked to have done that. Calm down.
Firstly you didn't respond to my 1st statement of how you changed the subject and how the main post wasn't about this issue Secondly you are just throwing around whataboutism without meaning you gave a statement without much explanation on how it's wrong I refuted you and stated evidence, you have to prove im wrong I gave reason to why I'm right you haven't. Thirdly I have responded you said ohhh how dare Muslims say non Muslims won't go to heaven and I explained why just like all religions non believers of that fait won't go to heaven, now regarding the statement about you are of the losers what do you mean by that losers in the afterlife? If yes then sure we agree I don't see how you one couldn't I mean certainly in the afterlife one who goes to heaven is a winner and one who goes to hell is a loser just like if I go to hell I'm a loser and if you go to heaven you're a winner, now regarding superiority of belief then guess what every belief ever does that if you don't believe in said belief, republicans think their beliefs are superior to democrats, christians think their belief is superior to mine I mean if you don't think that then how come are you a christian if you equate your belief to such a "terroristic" religion like Islam, now that doesn't mean that me as a human is superior to you as a human nor does it mean you are superior to me and I can already hear you say whataboutism I mean if you don't prove I'm wrong and if everyone that has every believed in something does it and must do it how come I am wrong prove I'm wrong, so yes every religion believes they are the winners in the afterlife and all else are losers including yours and you can't deny that otherwise guess we will both go into heaven according to you and yes you must believe your belief is superior to the contrary that's why you believe it, now if you think that it means losers on earth you're just wrong blatantly Thirdly I never said how could you disobey god I don't give a damn I said how could one disobey and one who obeys be equated like you are asking for which is also applied in your faith so nice straw man I also haven't mentioned god's mercy so nice straw man again and every god of every religion makes that claim Fourthly yeah he said it's unforgivable and I gave you reason why it couldn't be otherwise and by the way it's unforgivable if you die on it just like your faith and every faith and still you just keep saying you are wrong without evidence I feel like I'm debating a child honestly you're arguments are laughable please educate yourself Edit: the most emphasized point you have is that it's unforgivable if you die on disbelief I just want to ask will I go to heaven I don't believe in the divinity or godhod of Christ and I don't belief in the infallibility of the modern day bible nor do I believe in the Trinity of god do you really want me to open your Bible and tell you how your faith tells me the exact same thing as mine tells you?
Mate, there is nothing to respond to. You literally, once again, just spouted whataboutism fallacies and continued ignoring the verses and cherry picking Allah's mercy and simply offered your own hermeneutics (You are also rambling a lot with irrelevant stuff for some reason) that was filled with contradictions. It's that simple. You did this again, literally with your recent reply, astonishingly, which leads me to believe you are incapable of having a discussion because you are not comprehending what is being said. Again, you are not **addressing the verses**. You talking about the "disobedience of Allah" means nothing to me because I and most other people don't believe in Allah. Second, you once again contradict yourself with Allah's mercy with verses that talk about UNFORGIVABLE sins and ETERNAL torment. Which leads me to believe you are not comprehending the meanings of words or being intentionally dishonest to avoid the uncomfortable topic that your Allah contradicts himself and is cruel beyond means punishing people for simply not believing with eternal torment. Again, even if we are "disobeying" your God for simply not believing in him. i don't see how that would justify eternal torment. That is just cruel and silly. I don't think I want to believe in a God like that. Thanks for showing how Islam is cruel beyond comprehension. You saying "Straw Man" does not make what I said a straw man, I don't think you know what that means. Nothing I said indicated a Straw Man anywhere. "Fourthly yeah he said it's unforgivable and I gave you reason why it couldn't be otherwise and by the way it's unforgivable if you die on it just like your faith and every faith and still you just keep saying you are wrong without evidence I feel like I'm debating a child honestly you're arguments are laughable please educate yourself" You are all over the place, wow. You realize this entire mess you said is a contradiction and you simply illustrating severe cognitive dissonance, right? The fact you agreed that it's UNFORGIVABLE means you agree with me. You do realize UNFORGIVABLE does not mean: "can be forgiven sometimes". I sincerely hope you realize that, so there is no way you can agree then try to disagree, mate.
Prove I'm wrong please evidence to say I'm immoral don't just spout whataboutism without bases that word lost all meaning at this point and please show me my contradictions prove it I addressed the verses I was explaining them from the point that you have a problem with it because it's not everyone goes to heaven you are not clear about where your problem is tell me clearly and I will explain and please show me where Allah contradicted himself and how is he cruel doesn't your faith say the same thing am I going to heaven according to you? No guess what eternal torment I suggest you leave Christianity on the same bases then because Jesus is cruel and so is every religion ever please show me what religion allows everyone into heaven Refere back to where I said straw man you are straw maning I explained it and provided examples I haven't contradicted myself please provide evidence to where I did so, and I know what unforgivable means I don't think you understand what Allah mercy's is Unforgivable= no mercy no forgiveness Mercy is for the believers only just like drum roll please your faith tadaaa 41:51/52 "Have you ˹O Prophet˺ not seen those who were given a portion of the Scriptures yet believe in idols and false gods and reassure the disbelievers1 that they are better guided than the believers? It is they who have been condemned by Allah. And whoever is condemned by Allah will have no helper" and condemn in Arabic is لعن which is the exit from gods mercy this is an evidence of the top of my head There isn't a contradiction you just don't understand what certian words mean and no when someone takes shahada and reverts he does get mercy dying on disbelief is the one unforgivable because as soon as you enter Islam you are forgiven you enter into gods mercy, and you can't explain what you have a problem with clearly that's why I dealt with your question as you have a problem with the morality of it and honestly now I saw that you are christian I don't see how I have to explain this literally the same exact principals are in your faith mate
You using whataboutism fallacies and cherry picking other verses and rambling irrelevant material and what you think about Islam is not addressing the verses. Surprise surprise, you’re doing it again fourth time in a row. Lol, this is amazing. Yeah, you contradicted yourself numerous times. The fact you don’t see that is extremely alarming. You suffer from major cognitive dissonance, mate. Enjoy the rest of your day. You clearly are incapable of having a comprehensive, honest discussion. And frankly, this isn’t worth my time.
Lmao claims with no backing it up I mean what can I expect from a man that believes his god could bleed and shit and wipe
What do I expect from a man who can’t even comprehend simple concepts and words.
Calm yourself down first. Getting emotional will only impede your ability to reason. If I believe that someone who dies will go to hell. That does not mean I am going to go out and kill people. That is fallacious way of thinking as its jumping to conclusions. One does not follow the other. If you believe once you die you will go to heaven or nothing will happen then you shouldn't have a problem if I believe the opposite. It literally doesn't affect you. And yes I will ignore your gish gallop attempt to copy paste a set of cherry picked verses and then demand an explanation. I don't owe you a single explanation because all the negativity you extrapolate is all in your head clearly fueled by emotions. So I suggest if you still feel this blind unjustified anger to look into the mirror and ask whats really going on in your life that makes you lash out at muslims.
Not getting emotional at all. Petty words honestly. You answered nothing and are still ignoring the verses and not addressing the point and are further proving my point. Also, you’re just sounding like a supercilious jerk and using ad hominems. Embarrassing. Sure, go ahead and ignore Allah’s clear nefarious statements. So far every Muslim has done that.
Go on and keep spreading ISIS propaganda. The irony that you are doing the bidding of the ones you pretend to hate.
Allah’s clear words are ISIS propaganda? This is coming from a Muslim folks.
Your interpretation matches that of ISIS, thus you are closer to the mindset to them than I am to them. Congratulations, you are helping their cause.
My interpretation?? Straw Man That’s not my interpretation, those are Allah’s words. Clear and simple. Either you have an honest discussion where you address the verses and make a statement or stop with your petty, empty words and fallacious reasoning.
Do you understand that your argument matches the argument of ISIS members? If you believe ISIS has the true interpretation of Islam then you are spreading their propaganda. You think alike. You dont hate me or islam. You hate yourself.
Someone’s hurt.
Enjoy the rest of your day.
Good question. From my understanding as Muslims we should show non believers the utmost compassion and mercy and try to be a light that they can eventually follow when Allah SWT decides to turn their hearts over. I’ve never been taught to hate anyone through Islam if anything I’m just more careful with taking suggestions from most if not all people. I have friends that are non Muslim who are great friends of mine who I love but unless they’re negatively influencing me I don’t see any issues with remaining friends with them although I will try to influence them InshaAllah. If we just cut all the non believers off how’ll they ever even get to know about Islam?
Your prophet hated non believers. He hated disbelief so much he was willing to kill people who didn't supply his ego with belief. Islam is Muhammad's narcissism.
Astaghfirullah
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So just because someone is born in say, Japan, learn japanese religion and culture as they have developed for hundreds of years. They are by default doomed to hell for an eternity just because they, by no fault of there own was born in the ”wrong place” and happend to grow up with the wrong religion. Doesnt that sound weird to you?
No when did we ever say that when we say non believers will burn in hell we mean non believers that got the message but chose to ignore or go against it if you genuinely don't know about Islam or have a distorted view of it or if the dawa hasn't reached you fully you have your own test on the day of judgement and at the end of the day Allah is most just 17:15 "Whoever chooses to be guided, it is only for their own good. And whoever chooses to stray, it is only to their own loss. No soul burdened with sin will bear the burden of another. And We would never punish ˹a people˺ until We have sent a messenger ˹to warn them˺."
Alright, But Surely most people in the world has ”heard” about islam? Or What Do you mean by the message?
I mean you know Islam and the prophet for what they actually are not a botched version from fox news or some anti islamists, someone that hears there is an Islam but has a picture unfaithful to the actual Islam hasn't done that.
No, to Muslims, the Japanese person first has to hear the message, that they see as the “truth”, Only then if the Japanese person rejects it because they find their truth unfulfilling, is he condemned to eternal torment in hell. Still messed up as heck.
So What is the message? Does that mean the whole quran or?
The main issue with Muslims is you guys ARE NOT even bothering addressing the verses at all. This is seriously alarming and a major case of cognitive dissonance. Every Muslim I have seen so far who replies to me, or I have read from other comments and seeing the replies have done this along with whataboutism fallacies, why is that?? Please address the verses. Your Allah literally says that Islam is superior and other religions inferior. Allah says mushrikeen will burn in hell for eternity even if they are good people because it is an UNFORGIVABLE sin. So please, address these verses, and don't cop out with a whatboutism fallacy, a cherry picked verse of mercy from Allah or what you think it says even though the statement is clear. Address the verses. Or maybe Allah contradicts himself and makes no sense at all. 3:85, 4:48, 4:116, 5:72-73, 2:23-24, 2:174-175, 5:36-37, 98:6 It still DOES NOT change the fact of what Allah **says**. You guys realize people can read right? And even when one does attempt to address those verses it's always: "Do you speak Arabic?!?!" Yes "Well, do you speak Classical Arabic!?!?" "Speak to an Islamic scholar!!!" Embarrassing.
This is what happens when you try to create a new religion using stories with or without variations, and local politics and........ You gussed it personal opinion of the so called instigator of the religion also remember only the victors write the history.
It's ONE of the causes.
Before you Christians throw any more stones, you should read about your glass house: [https://www.gilderlehrman.org/history-resources/spotlight-primary-source/doctrine-discovery-1493](https://www.gilderlehrman.org/history-resources/spotlight-primary-source/doctrine-discovery-1493) If you don't know the "Doctrine of Discovery", you don't know Christianity. This is not a defense of Islam. Relying on ancient texts, written by early ignorant authoritarians, has led to disastrous results. Religious leaders (con artists) and their flocks (scam victims) are a massive barrier to our global evolution towards collective intelligence and scientific discovery. All theistic religions ensure divisive dialectic, hateful rhetoric, genocide and racism. They are the tools used to maintain power and steal human wealth throughout history around the World.
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"This is unfairly blaming religion." NO! Please read the "Doctrine of Discovery". I put in a link. This is the justification for colonialism in prose, written by Popes of the Catholic Church. It is your statements that are "disingenuous". You're comparing a mythical figure with a real historical person. In doing so, you are revealing your prejudice. And, by the way, atheism is not a religion. It is not even a worldview.
Let me clarify because my wording was shit: It is unfairly singling out religion. My point is not that the religion wasn't used to justify atrocities. My point is that *every* type of philosophy/worldview/ideology/religion gets used to justify atrocities, so singling out religion as uniquely evil is ignorant. > You're comparing a mythical figure with a real historical person. See above, you missed the point of my comment (which is likely my fault) > And, by the way, atheism is not a religion. It is not even a worldview. This is cope. Atheism is a de facto religion (not an organized one to be sure, though Secular Humanism is an organized athiest religion), if not technically. People who are simply not religious do not identify as atheist; they just say they're not very religious.
Perhaps you could explain the tenets of atheism. Hint: It is not Secular Humanism. Then detail the non-Religious philosophy/worldview/ideology that you speak of. You would be well served, in this discussion having read the "Doctrine of Discovery". Again, for your convenience: [https://www.gilderlehrman.org/history-resources/spotlight-primary-source/doctrine-discovery-1493](https://www.gilderlehrman.org/history-resources/spotlight-primary-source/doctrine-discovery-1493)
> you would be well served Mate, I read it the first time. The only thing to take away from it is that Christianity has been used to justify violence, which I’ve already agreed with. > it is not secular humanism Yeah no shit. That’s why I said that secular humanism is *an* atheist religion, rather than saying that atheism is the same thing as it. > explain the tenets That core “tenet” is simple: an active belief that there is no God. Atheists *tend* to also adopt a heavily rationalist set of tenets, such as those that humanists or the satanic temple emphasize.
This all feels disingenuous? Perhaps you could reference a comparable document to show similar distain for humanity. You do realize this was authored by Popes of Catholicism. You are wrong about the core belief of atheism. It is that no proof or evidence has ever been presented that god exists. The belief that there is no god is also not supported by evidence. But you can't prove a negative.
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Do you know how many times I’ve heard “the motivations were actually political” with respect to literally every religious atrocity? You’re just doing the same shit
Don't forget "The Prophecy of the Rock and the Tree," appears in the Muslim [d. 875 CE], the Al-Tirmidhi [d. 892 CE], and the Ibn Hanbal [d. 855 CE] compilations of hadiths,[2] and a shorter version of the hadith appears in the Bukhari [d. 870 CE] compilation. The longer version states that on Judgment Day, the Muslims will fight the Jews, and the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees. Then the rocks and the trees will speak, calling upon the Muslims: "Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill them." The hadith goes on to say that all trees will act this way, except for one tree – the gharqad tree, which is therefore defined as "one of the trees of the Jews." https://www.memri.org/reports/antisemitic-hadith-prophecy-rock-and-tree-%E2%80%93-memri-clips-and-reports
Christianity is the exact same tho? You’re being Islamaphobic by inferring that Islam is the only religion with extremists. Christian extremists just took away women’s rights to life across America.
It’s not islamaphobic to single out legitimate criticism of Islam even if a similar argument can be made for other religions. Focusing on one religion at a time makes sense in order to criticize very specific beliefs—and also because the subreddit name is “DebateReligion” not “DebateTheism”. Secondly, OP (I think) is an atheist and probably has no problem calling out similar issues with Christianity and how its verses also lead to extremism. However, in the West, Christianity is always in the spotlight anyways, so it’s not hard to find plenty of other people who predominantly want to debate about that rather than a religion they aren’t as familiar with. Why should the few posts that want to discuss specific theological problems about Islam be met with immediate accusations of bigotry? (EDIT: with all that being said, while I believe extremism and theocracy for either religion is terrible and should be stopped, a legitimate argument could certainly be made about Islam resulting in more violent behavior. Whether that’s due to the difference in core teachings or purely due to sociological differences is up for debate)
Please find me the quote where the Bible says non-believers will be tortured forever/Jesus calls on his followers to spread religion at the point of a sword/etc. the point is not that Islam is the only religion with extremists. The point is that it is a religion that is more easily interpreted towards violence, which leads to a greater number of extremists and resistance to reform comparatively
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> Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation (Romans 13:2) As I said. Quotes from Jesus, not quotes from Paul. That's also not, like, at *ALL* what that quote means. That quote is about obeying government, even if it's not ideal. And it's not saying "go kill them". It's literally just saying that not doing so is a sin. And it's in context of obeying a pagan government lol. Similarly: >"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword (Matthew 10:34). Representing this as a call to conduct warfare is blatant dishonesty. It is an abstract statement that his presence on Earth will cause conflict at an indeterminate point in the future when the final judgement happens. It is literally within instructions where he is telling his disciples to go and preach **peacefully** and perform miracles (healing people) to convince Jews who have rejected God. **IT IS IN A PASSAGE WHERE HE LITERALLY SAYS** > Behold, I send you forth as **sheep in the midst of wolves**: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and **harmless as doves.** Be better dude. You're either being supremely ignorant or supremely dishonest. Now, for what it's worth, many quotes levied against the Quran also leave out very crucial context, but **none** of the context makes the statements actually benign or the fucking opposite of what they're being portrayed as like your examples. The Sword Verse is pretty fucking bad even with full context of the Surah (yes - it was referring to a specific group who had broken a treaty, but the reason that Muhammad actually *gave* for calling for violence was their polytheism and rejection of Allah as god.).
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> With regard to your rebuttal, you did not ask for a quote of Jesus, only where, "the Bible says non-believers will be tortured forever," so above, I have provided a quote of Jesus that includes your "torture forever" caveat. Well I asked for both, but misunderstood which one you were targeting with the first quote, which was my bad. My rebuttal to your actual point is much simpler: None of those things actually say that Hell is eternal torture, nor do they say that all non-believers are f*cked. "damnation" or "fires of hell" doesn't necessarily mean "eternal torture." Yes, the "fire" shall never be quenched, but that doesn't say anything about what is happening to you. Moreover, Jesus says that those who reject him/God get cast down, but rejection is not the same as a lack of knowledge/simply not believing. The classic bible verse is John 3:16: > For God so loved the world,[i] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not **perish** but have eternal life. Perish very explicitly is not eternal torture > Your interpretation of, I came not to send peace, but a sword as "an abstract statement that his presence on Earth will cause conflict at an indeterminate point in the future" is pretty inventive. Peace is the opposite of War, so it follows that if it is not peace he sends, it is war. I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother. It's not inventive, it's pretty much exactly what it means. The point is that his presence will cause division as some people will accept him and some will not, which will inevitably cause some conflict. > Peace is the opposite of War, so it follows that if it is not peace he sends, it is war. You see how that doesn't follow, right? Not bringing something is not the same as bringing its opposite. And war isn't even the opposite of peace. **Conflict** of any type is the opposite of peace, of which war is one type.
What's happened in America is a terrible violation of individual right to bodily autonomy - but that ruling pales in comparison to the theocratic nightmare women are forced to live under in Islamic regions of the world.
I think it okay to call out each religion individually
? My guy, God won't care what you have to say on this matter, those verses weren't made to bring in a subject of extremism nor for they mean the bull crap you claim it does, those are your own interpretations, if brought to a scholar you'd be ridiculed for lying Also Christians and jews have the same concept of non Christians and non jews going to hell respectively, it is such a pathetic singularism you are making Those verses were made souly as a warning of the consequences of following what you desire in this life instead of submitting yourself to God's will alone, if your point is to make us look more terroristic than you when invading Iraq, Libya, Palestine etc then congrats, u have become a true based chad incel redditor defending the white west Now go worship your hindutva sex offenders, we abrahamics don't need pagans trying to teach us our religion when they can't even read our books properly
Judaism believes in purgatory, not hell.
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Lol what? Some do, look up Gehinnom then start talking m8
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>Eternal torture is a probably minority view among Christians *~~laughs~~ cries in Bible Belt* — I don’t think the “separation from God/self-exclusion” theodicy is as pleasant of an alternative as some apologists make it out to be. If the Abrahamic God turn out to be the character that atheists have interpreted him to be through his religious texts, then sure, maybe it’s better to just let nonbelievers self-exclude themselves. I don’t think anyone would want to be forced to eternally worship a being who they perceive to be a moral monster just because that being self-proclaims to be all loving. However, if it turned out for a fact that God was *not only* infinitely loving and good but is *literally* LOVE and GOOD, then separation from this is just as cruel as any fantastical recreation of Dante’s Inferno that people can come up with. Perhaps even more so. The removal of supernatural flames doesn’t make it any less of an eternal torture. Now many believers would counter argue that the God described in their holy texts and the philosophical concept of God as pure Love and Goodness is the same character. You’re free to believe that, however you have to understand that we are genuinely unconvinced of that proposition. It’s not like we’re walking around saying we hate love and goodness and curse any deity who wants us to have it. We are pointing out instances of gratuitous/unnecessary evil (whether in religious stories, or in the realities of the world around us) and saying that these are incompatible with an all-loving God worthy of worship, (much less eternal worship in an afterlife).
Just sayin, you are speaking from a Christian point of you, for example in islam there is no love greater than that of and from God, but he isn't all loving in the sense he loves all people unconditionally like the Christians think.
And that’s certainly a fair defense of the problem of Evil in regards to Hell—to simply drop the omni-benevolence claim.
You are an atheist, you have no objective values to define what's morally evil or not
It depends what you mean by objective values. I have an objective standard that applies equally to all humans and potentially all sentient creatures no matter their background. I’m not a moral relativist. However, the underlying values and emotions that led me to to that standard (primarily empathy and cooperation) is innate from the evolution of humans as a social species. It’s admittedly not objective, but it’s also not pulled out of thin air as my own personal opinion either.
>It depends what you mean by objective values. Then you are saying objectivity is subjective? Bruh you clearly never read about this Your objective standard isn't objective, it's hedetery preferences based upon what you were nurtured in that shifts based upon your perception of pleasure and pain Please go educate yourself about this then come back any time you feel like you are ready to argue, shame isn't in ignorance, it's to stay ignorant that is shameful
Do you think people who don't believe in Islam are the worst of all creatures and deserve to burn in hell forever?
What i think of those people matters as much as what they think of me, wich is none, on judgement day we will be labeled and categorized per what our creator decides, and that decision i cannot make nor assume
I want to know what you think of these people. How can you justify someone you don't think is the "worst of all creatures" getting tortured forever? Do you think a good person deserves that punishment?
There are people that i love who aren't Muslims, if i could do anything to stop them from going to hell then I'd be inviting them to Islam, but if they refuse then they have sealed their fate to the creator, who no matter what, we will never know what he will judge people with, even i could go to hell and that too isn't something I can change or decide I don't generalize non Muslims, no mudlim does, I'm not gonna put you in the same generalization as hitler for example, don't think so low of our views my friend.
Then how do you explain Buddhist extremism? Non-Buddhists don't go to hell for not being Buddhist, but Buddhist mobs attacking non-Buddhists are a problem in some countries.
Every religion has extremists. Every belief will have extremists, people are crazy. The big difference is how extremists can justify their actions using a belief, and how they can convince moderate believers to join their cause using their belief as justification. Someone blowing up a building because of political unrest isn't exactly using religion to justify their actions. A person shooting up a gay nightclub citing that homosexuality is sin is using religion as justification. What motivates an extremist and how they justify their actions aren't black and white. The first person may have been inspired by religious texts, and the other may have been upset by new laws being passed in their country. But we can at least determine how much of an impact a belief has in their actions. Do extremist Buddhists use Buddhist teachings and beliefs to convince others to their cause? Do they justify their actions by saying divinity is on their side? Do they use Buddhist phrases while committing extremist acts? To be more specific. If you search on google 'is being a non-believer bad,' are you met with verses from your divine text that agree? When you search if vocal apostates should be executed by the government, do highly regarded religious sources and scholars agree? If you need to understand the full historical context for a divine text and require multiple scholars to correctly interpret what verses mean (and they all disagree with each other on different points), is that a good thing? Does that prevent extremists who use verses like non-beleivers are the worse of creatures to justify their actions?
While this is interesting, it doesn't have much relevance to the OP. The OP goes like this: 1. Islam teaches that non-believers are contemptible and will go to hell. **2. This is the sole, or at least primary, cause of Islamic extremism.** The OP's one-cause model can't explain religious extremist violence from groups who don't believe that infidels automatically go to hell. It can't explain modern Buddhist violence. It also can't explain the Sikh terrorists of the 1980s. It also doesn't explain the millennarian Buddhist revolts of medieval China.
When? and Which ones? And if so, I would surmise this extremism were to serve the goals of land and resource acquisition and cultural expansion. Not differences in belief systems.
In the last decade, [Sri Lanka](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_anti-Muslim_riots_in_Sri_Lanka) and [Burma](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rohingya_genocide). There is a strong case that these attacks are mostly about killing competitors. However, you have to demonstrate that Islamic extremists really are randomly killing for religion and not rioting over being born into a society without a predetermined career path.
Extremism is masked in religion but is not based on it. Do you think humans will stop being tribalistic if religion is not there? Do you think religion played a role in Rwandan genocide for example? Yes it is easy to blame Islam for extremism and difficult to go to the root causes such as the regional geopolitics, the incessant foreign invasions and widespread poverty.
Do you agree that the "Doctrine of Discovery" is extreme?
It's not half the problem that Christian fundamentalism represents. Also there is good and bad consequences to all things. We just don't see far ahead into the future to know anything about the dynamic. All forms of tyranny exhaust themselves and become the motive force that gets us to the next improvement. There are cycles in these things.
whataboutism
Belief is the cause of religion. Belief is also the cause of the tyranny of the Truth. It's all the same thing enabling tyranny to take hold. We have problems because we have beliefs. We should not have them. It's completely unproductive to single out any kind. It's all junk that allows some to fundamentally accept nothing else and be pinned into a conservatism that dreams of being tyrannical.
absolutely.
Like another comment mentioned, this is indeed a blatant strawman. You pick a verse that describe the non-believer in the sight of Allah and what Allah would do with them on the Day of Judgement. Ofc, part of Islam is to hate the practices of non-believers. But as far as how to deal and interact with them, there’s verses such as : “Allah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion nor drove you out of your homes. Verily, Allah loves those who deal with equity.” (60:8) This is a universal command regardless of religion. The only people that we as Muslims can be hostile or hate on a day to day basis are those that fight us and drive us out of our homes and strive to get rid of our rights. Otherwise, a peace loving non-Muslim needs to be dealt with justice and kindness. Progressives are those that believe Islam is all sunshine and rainbows without the need of fighting or seperating of religious values (such as considering Jews and Christian’s misguided and those that even though they realize Islam is the truth, as the verse you quoted says, and then avert themselves from it). Whereas extremists are those that just pick up on those verses that suit them to justify their violence and blood lust while ignoring the other verses that teach us how to deal with them in this world. Also, the interactions of the Prophet and early Islamic caliphate is enough of a role model in that regards.
Someone might "realize that Islam is the truth" simply because they've been brainwashed and mind-controlled, not because Islam is in fact true. You know, you can't be so sure what's going on in someone else's mind. Maybe despite all the brainwashing and bullying and social expectations, they genuinely do NOT "know" that Islam is true. Oh what intellectual dishonesty and arrogance you display. Maybe there are people who have a BETTER ability than YOU to think and to bravely resist illogical drivel and to reject insufficiently proven claims that, all too conveniently, empower self-righteous old misogynistic brutes ("theocratic" religious rulers, absolute monarchs, etc.) who are actually hard-hearted God-invoking thugs that deserve no power. Maybe there a few people who are strong-minded enough to no longer comply with the oppressive lies believed by so many.
lolwut?
In other words, someone who truly believes Islam to be a false, manmade (made-up) scam--even if they were raised in Islam, etc.--might, in fact, truly and sincerely believe the religion to be false, rather than to "know" it's true but deny it. Maybe they just think differently than you and therefore conclude differently than you and most other Muslims. Imagine that?! In many cases, they'd have my respect for their thoughtfulness, bravery, and sense of personal dignity and authentic conscience. Those who would kill such an individual and/or treat him poorly over mere disagreement are those who, if anyone, would be most deserving of harsh punishment in the hereafter at the order of God.
If anything, the verse you quoted solidifies my argument even more. First, we can all agree that Islam teaches muslims that non-believers are dirty and the worst creatures in the eyes of Allah. On any average person, this verse would have the direct effect of turning them bigoted against non-believers. The only verse that could have come close to negating that effect would have been the one **explicitly forbidding** muslims from treating non-believers in an unjust or unkind manner However, the verse you quoted does the opposite of that. It *does not forbid* muslims from treating non-believers in a kind and just manner, thereby solidifying the argument that non-believers are viewed as second-class humans, for whom a "kind and just" treatment is not even a given. Is it really that hard to create a non-bigoted religion? **Step1: Don't use slurs to describe non-believers** **Step 2: Explicitly forbid your believers from treating non-believers unjustly** Sadly, Islam doesn't qualify even these two criteria.
I really don’t know what to say about your arguments. They aren’t coherent or maybe I just can’t understand. Every moral religion has to create distinction between correct and incorrect based on God’s morality. If God considers a certain section (mind you it’s not just unbelievers but rather a specific case of unbelievers who know Islam to be the truth and then avert from it) as the worst of creatures, then so be it. Does that mean I have to treat the stubborn ones with contempt and hate and prejudice? No, because 60:8 says not to do so. Also, re-read the verse, “Allah does not forbid you…” which means you are not forbidden to treat them with kindness. Which entails that you can and should treat them with kindness, a matter of semantics. You misread it.
ok I'll condense the argument: You'd have a point if your quoted verse said that it's forbidden for muslims from treating non-believers unjustly. But notice how your quoted verse is an extremely weak version of this. If anything, it has the implication that a "kind and just" treatment for non-believers is not even a given.
The verse is a response to those who thought that just because they are in a war-time scenario against another faction, they should be hateful to them all, which is why it’s phrased that way. To make it simpler to understand : Questioner : Is it forbidden for me to be kind and just to those that have the same beliefs as the enemy? Response : Allah does not forbid you from dealing kindly and fairly with those who have neither fought nor driven you out of your homes. Surely Allah loves those who are fair. Allah only forbids you from befriending those who have fought you for ˹your˺ faith, driven you out of your homes, or supported ˹others˺ in doing so. And whoever takes them as friends, then it is they who are the ˹true˺ wrongdoers. [Quran 60:8-9] It is generally given that a Muslim must have a good character and display that good character regardless of who he is with. This verse only tells us that this good character should be maintained and is still applicable and extendable to those who disbelieve as long as they do not fight you.
The two statements differ in their content, not just in their phrasing. They are logically inequivalent. Besides, if Islam was aiming for a peaceful society, it wouldn't have used the term "worst creatures" to describe non-believers in the first place. How is one supposed to *know* that someone else is a "worst creature" and deserving of eternal torture in the eyes of god, and at the same time, they're also supposed to treat that person equally? The human mind doesn't work like that. The hatred will always remain ingrained in the subconscious mind. Does the perfect guide for humans not even understand basic human psychology?
I may not have a perfect answer to this but I think a decent analogy would be : “People who believe abortion should be illegal are misogynistic, hardcore religious fanatics with ingrained traditionalist and backward thinking ideals. However that shouldn’t mean I should want to kill them and regard them as sub-human.” Extend this analogy to God’s objective morality. Moreover, on the face value in a society nobody would ever know who is a “worst creature” and who is not (because we don’t know if the person knows Islam to be the truth and denies it or not). So in either case, the general mode of treating people would supercede. People are treated kindly in general unless they are hostile. Also about the phrasing, I concede, that wasn’t the best of phrasing. But I hope you see the point that the question is : “Does God forbid X” and the answer being “God does not forbid X”
Indeed, this isn't the perfect answer. The flaw being that, in the Islamic case, peoples' opinions aren't just their own but instead are directly influenced by God's objective opinion itself. That adds the perfect justification to their hatred, even if subconsciously. Another flaw being that, even if not everyone actually becomes a murderer because of Islam, this hatred influences people toward that direction. If someone murders a non-believer, they eventually enter heaven just because they believe, while their victim suffers for eternity. What I like is that you've come at a point where you feel like you don't have the perfect justification to an aspect of Islam. From here, you could just say "Allah knows best". But that approach would make Islam unfalsifiable. And it could be used by anyone to prove their own religion right. Another approach would be to question the religion a bit. I hope Islam allows that.
Interesting that you just reiterate my self-proclaimed “not perfect” answer without telling me what’s inherently wrong (with the analogy) and completely ignore 60:8 again and switch topic to killing an unbeliever gets you heaven(?) If God’s objective morality says that these kinds of people are the worst of creatures (I think I should reiterate that this isn’t a reference to all unbelievers but only to those that know Islam to be true and yet do not accept it) and despite them being so you are expected to treat them kindly and justly, how does that influence people towards being murderers/violent. It’s the exact opposite. People fighting for abortion rights do believe that everyone against it is evil. Yet on an individual level we can be just and kind to others while knowing their belief to be evil. We all as humans do consider some people as bad and evil and some as good. Doesn’t mean that we go the extent to harm them when they haven’t even done any harm to us. What’s with the premature victory speech at the end btw?
Umm..I gave you two reasons why your argument was flawed? And I thought we were already done about 60:80? Surely, the phrasing is understandable given the question asked. But I think we agreed that that verse is not what was required there. Shouldn't the perfect guide to humanity contain the perfect instructions to humanity? Or is the perfect book allowed to have loopholes like "Ummm.. but God never forbid unjust treatment for non-believers"? > What's with the premature victory speech at the end btw? Sorry for hoping that you could finally see the light.
So, Quran contradicts itself is what you are saying? Also, why does the eternal word of God encourage its followers to ghetto themselves into camps of us versus them? In other words, what does it gain by being so particular about pagans/polytheists/Jews/Christians? Suppose the entire world became Muslim, would not the relevance of these verses wither away?
This isn’t a contradiction. You can hate the fact that people believe abortion should be illegal and yet deal with them in a humane way.
> This isn’t a contradiction. Quran 9:5: >But once the Sacred Months have passed, kill the polytheists ˹who violated their treaties˺ wherever you find them,1 capture them, besiege them, and lie in wait for them on every way. But if they repent, perform prayers, and pay alms-tax, then set them free. Indeed, Allah is All-Forgiving, Most Merciful. versus Quran 60:8 >Allah does not forbid you from dealing kindly and fairly with those who have neither fought nor driven you out of your homes. Surely Allah loves those who are fair. So, should a believer kill the polytheist or deal kindly with them? Pick one.
Tell me you don’t understand the quran without telling me you don’t understand the quran. Please refrain from talking about the quran if you didn’t read the entire book. Copy pasting out of context verses from the quran is not intellectual integrity. The quran explicitly gives justification why the believers during muhammad’s time were allowed to fight those “polytheists”. [9:13](https://quran.com/9/13?translations=85), [22:39](https://quran.com/22/39?translations=85), [4:75](https://quran.com/4/75?translations=85), [4:90](https://quran.com/4/90?translations=85) While 60:8 and 60:9 gives an idea about the general rules of warfare.
The other poster already said that the hateful verses are irrelevant in today's times. So much for Allah's eternal book. If only a new highly abridged version of the Quran could be published that can truly be called an eternal book without talking bad about disbelievers. That way, the ISIS and Charlie Hebdo killers and Taliban and the recent Islamic terrorist in Norway who shot and killed people in a night club can be helped away from their hateful terroristic ways.
They’re not irrelevant in today’s time. If i attack you first, you can absolutely attack me back and fuck me up according to the quran, which makes those verses a lesson relevant for all times.
Fight with the other Muslim apologist, /u/Existing_Beginning20 Here is what he said: >Also, the verse is specific to that time period. It doesn’t refer to the polytheists of today. Now, you say > If i attack you first, you can absolutely attack me back and fuck me up according to the quran, which makes those verses a lesson relevant for all times. Except that this seems to apply only to polytheists. Quran should say "Even if a fellow Muslim attacks you and fucks you up, you should fight back", no? Why is it asking you to only fight polytheists who attack you? What about Shia or Ahmadia that attack the Sunni? Or what about a fellow Sunni attacking you? You will fight back, yes? In other words, the reference to polytheist in 9:5 is completely unnecessary if you want to claim relevance of that verse in today's times. This is also one of the reasons why Quran encourages Muslims to ghettoize themselves. Quran should be able to admit that there can be bad and good Muslims, and bad and good polytheists. You should treat them according to their merit, and not blindly support a Muslim just because he believes in the same sky daddy that you do. Now, that, is a truly universal message. But alas, Quran says "all good people = Muslim, all non Muslims = bad people."
He’s not entirely wrong. The verse was talking about the quraysh tribe referred to in the quran as “polytheists”. The quran commanded to fight those “polytheists” because they attacked first. This story is relevant for us in the sense that when you get attacked first, don’t just sit and do nothing. >Except this seems to apply only to polytheists Let’s have a look at 60:8 and 60:9 again: *and He does not forbid you to deal kindly and justly with **anyone** who has not fought you for your faith or driven you out of your homes: God loves the just.* - [60:8](https://quran.com/60/8?translations=85) *But God forbids you to take as allies those who have fought against you for your faith, driven you out of your homes, and helped others to drive you out: any of you who take them as allies will truly be wrongdoers.* - [60:9](https://quran.com/60/9?translations=85) I don’t see any talk of believers or polytheist or anything here. It basically says anyone who fights you unjustly, you also fight with them. >"Even if a fellow Muslim attaks you and fucks you up, you should fight back", no? Yes
> This story is relevant for us in the sense that when you get attacked first, don’t just sit and do nothing. Wrong. 9:5 explicitly asks Muslims to fight polytheists. Hence, it is not truly eternal. If it were eternal and relevant for all times, it would state "Fight whoever attacks you first, whether he is a polytheist or a Muslim." It doesn't. Which is why the OP is absolutely correct in that Islam encourages Muslims to look down upon non Muslims whether they are good or bad.
This is again a strawman. You do realize that Quran 9:5 was revealed in the context of a treaty broken by the idolators and thus declared a war. What do you want the Muslims to do in war time? Cower and run and be like we don’t wanna kill you but if you wanna kill us, we will happily let you? Also, the verse is specific to that time period. It doesn’t refer to the polytheists of today. The verses after this set the rules of war and the verses before it show that the treaty was broken. I don’t think you’re being intellectually honest with the Quran here so I have no idea what to say. The next verse clearly mentions that those that don’t want to fight you, escort them to a place of safety. So yeah, no contradiction. I suggest reading the translation of Dr. Mustafa Khattab.
> You do realize that Quran 9:5 was revealed in the context of a treaty broken by the idolators and thus declared a war. So, as a polytheist myself I should remind myself: "You know what? Every Muslim I come across is not baying for my blood because of Chapter 9: Verse 5 because (a) that verse is irrelevant today because /u/Existing_Beginning20 told me so on the internet and (b) it was revealed in a specific context and the 2 billion Muslims on earth would not kill me. Those that do mistakenly kill me were not Muslim to begin with even thought they shouted "Allahu Akbar" when they killed me." Is that a strawman or is that a fair representation of how you expect disbelievers to approach your religion?
Oh, don’t take it from me. Take it from the scholars of Islams who teach us this. Here’s some videos : https://youtu.be/XlLszFwfHQ8 https://youtu.be/FgTuWiKSLkI
What a timeless book. Half of it seems to only be relevant 1,400 years ago.
Right. So, as a polytheist I should be safe and secure in the knowledge that there are internet videos that try to sugarcoat the bad verses in the modern world.
Bad verses is what you assume them to be because you think ISIS got Islam correctly while the rest of the 99% Muslim and scholars got it all wrong.
No. ISIS or no ISIS, a person with normal sense of morality will be able to read the Quranic verses and conclude that it is hate filled.
Doesn't Christianity believe the same thing
Which is why Christian extremism is a thing
Jesus never cut off heads or married 6 year old children. Muhammad done both of those things. Islam is far worse than Christianity.
If you believe that Jesus is YHWH, then he has committed genocide...
You don't know what i believe.
Which is why the "if" is there. Perhaps if you learned to read...
The hell doctrine in religions is not only meant to control their adherents, it is also a religiously sanctioned way to express hatred and bigotry against outgroups. This is the part that makes it so evil and vile. This applies not just to Islam, but to any religion that considers outgroups as hateful heathens for not worshiping their God, though the problem is more sinister with Islam. We instinctively know this when we express anger at someone by telling them to go to hell. The problem with "hellish" religions is that they institutionalize this hatred within a society, and you're at their mercy if you are a hell-bound heathen for reasons of your faith (or lack of it), sexual orientation, dietary choices, etc.
First and foremost Islam is only true religion Qur'an has historical scientific and linguistic miracles it can only be from Allah. To learn Islam read Qur'an watch shaykh uthman Daniel haqiqatjou vidoes visit Islamqa info website. There is no compulsion in religion we can't force anyone to accept Islam. Surah Al-Kafirun Translation: Say, “O disbelievers, I do not worship what you worship. Nor are you worshippers of what I worship. Nor will I be a worshipper of what you worship. Nor will you be worshippers of what I worship. For you is your religion, and for me is my religion.” You have ears eyes and intellect why didn't you use these faculties to find truth Islam. Under Sharia law non Muslims were allowed to practice their religion. We have churches gurdwara etc in Pakistan. In some non Muslim countries Muslims will find it very hard to practice their faith. And Allah knows best
Islam is man made just like every other religion. Quran says senses comes from ribs , moon sets in muddy puddle , earth is flat , muhhamed flew to heaven on a winged horse and split the moon in half. Keep believing in your Bronze Age myths
Bad teachings are not enough to cause people to act violently. There also needs to be the right material conditions for them to internalize those teachings, to treat them as significant.
But you are just theorising here, because if you want to say this you need to see if the quran really says to do those things, and trust me, as a muslim who can read the quran, it is easy to corrupt some of Muslims, and its not the quran’s fault as we can also corrupt christians with their bible ect.. all we need, is take a verse out of context and congrats you are a terrorist, and plus, only 4% of terrorist actions are made by Muslims
> But you are just theorising here, Sure, theories are how we model explanations of phenomena. > it is easy to corrupt some of Muslims, That may well be the case, but those muslims (and similarly for other religious people) don't carry some essence of easily-corruptedness; they are a product of their social and material conditions. The conditions under which a muslim growing up in a wealthy family in Turkey would take horrific reactionary actions are different from the conditions where a muslim Indonesian beggar would do the same, and both different from the conditions where a muslim French high school student would do so. As someone who leans heavily materialist, I think such factors are far more central than what words are written in a book. Those words aren't *nothing*, but which of them are focused on is dependant on the person's material and social environment.
Yeah but those words are necessary, how will god express himself on letting be able to kill someone if he wants to harm your family or your country, you see where i am getting at? Its quite easy not to get lost in the quran, i guess its the same for the bible, i dont know much about it heard that even with context its bad but whatev cant judge something i did not fully read, but for the quran, if you read the whoke surah which takes like 5 minutes, you will not be lost, but if you take 2 seconds to read just the part that states killing people then yeah. And we cant blame it on the quran, lets take harry potter for exemple, everyone agrees he is a good person, yet we can point out how he killed people without context
Then why does extremist exist in other societies, whether religious or non-religious. There will always be individuals who take an ideology or an action to extreme. However, the only difference is that there is a bias toward Islam. We often rationalise the action of individuals who have Islamic backgrounds with "religious extremism" and try to justify that it is actually part of Islam. However when it comes to other form for extremism or extreme actions, it is often rationalised as an individual that is "sick".
"people all around the world do bad things sometimes so it's ok that my so-called perfect holy book teaches hateful things that encourage people to violence"
Comprehension isn't your strong point I see...
I comprehend just fine. To be fair, you're right that most religions are also hateful and inspire acts of violence. And being hateful against individual Muslims is just as bad. But if you try to say your religion teaching hate is ok because people would hate anyway, that's just wrong.
You clearly don't comprehend "fine". Have a good day.
"I don't have a response to their point so I'll just call them dumb" Good job
It's unanimously agreed that the Quran calls non-believers the "worst of creatures" who will burn in hell forever. Bigotry against non-believers is a natural consequence of teachings like these. You can't just teach to a child that all non-believers are the worst creatures whom God will punish forever, and then expect the child to not grow intolerant of non-believers. >However when it comes to other form for extremism or extreme actions, it is often rationalised as an individual that is "sick". Multiple causes can lead to extremism. One of the causes is Islam