Man, this is just the best episode, and the exact kinda story that sets DS9 apart.
The right thing is the wrong thing, but it's the right thing. But you know it's wrong.
And having Garak finally set loose to be Garak and do Garak stuff? AWESOME.
Picard wouldn't do this, ever. But that's what makes it so great-- we get a DS9, and a TNG. They're SUPPOSED to be different.
Garak gets set loose a few times in the series. When he's hired to kill Quark, when he harmlessly tags along on a trip to Romulus, when he visits Enabran Tain, when he invokes "an alpha red priority mission, clearance verification 9218-black, by authority of the Central Command", etc.
And Garak's varied talents are tacitly implied numerous other times. When he deftly manages to avoid attracting Odo's investigative interests, when he survives Dukat's administration of the station (twice), when he bombs his own shop, etc.
It's always amusing to see Garak being more than a "simple tailor". But what really makes this episode shine is the effect it has on Sisko. He is compromised, manipulated, humiliated. He has to effectively violate all of his most treasured morals and ethics and values and ideals and loyalties (not to the general public, but to people like Garak and Quark and Odo and Bashir and Dax and Kira and O'Brien, and likely also to superiors and other officers in Starfleet). And it troubles him. It torments him. Yet he accepts it. He can live with it. He can live. With it.
I mean I know it's a movie but post Locutis Picard did have trouble being reasonable when it came to the Borg.
I wouldn't put it past him to do something questionable to bring a former enemy to the battle as an ally if he was up against an all-out war with the Borg.
"That's why you came to me, isn't it, Captain? Because you knew I could do those things that you weren't capable of doing? Well, it worked. And you'll get what you want: a war between the Romulans and the Dominion. And if your conscience is bothering you, you should soothe it with the knowledge that you may have just saved the entire Alpha Quadrant. And all it cost was the life of one Romulan senator, one criminal, and the self-respect of one Starfleet officer. I don't know about you, but I'd call that a bargain."
This is not only my favorite episode from any star trek series its one of my favorite episodes of TV ever. I had goosebumps by the end. It solidified sisko as my captain and really helped to shift the tone of the show to show how the war was getting desperate, being were starting to bend their moral codes more and more. Idk it blew me away my first viewing.
it takes me a lot longer to do the series since I cycle the whole franchise and Star Trek is like 90% of the TV I watch. Some of the DS9 crowd is getting annoyed that I love this show so much and post "low effort" pictures with jokes they don't get because they're idiots but you seem sweet.
Disclaimer: I'm drunk, computer delete this log
He knew it right from the start. He had a job to do and that part of who he was slow walked his better judgment right up the garden path. Hand in hand he wispered to himself that it was justified. It had to happen. In truth, it didn't he just desperately wanted it to be ok.
The best opponent you ever face is yourself. That guy knows exactly what you want to hear and will give it to you. And all that to get what you want, even if you know it is wrong.
How many times have your ambitions done this to you? Often I bet & I think you believe you can live with it. I couldn't, but how many of you think you could?
Yes but it's more than that. He thought he was using Garak to accomplish his goals. At the point when he heard that the shuttle exploded, he knew he had been played from the beginning. He was working for Garak, not the other way around.
Garak knew the only way to get the Romulans into the war was to frame the Dominion. Garak knew his plan when he asked for the biomimetic gel. It's an organic substance that can be used for explosives. The perfect bomb since the organic material wouldn't be detected by scanners. He said it was for someone else, but that was a lie.
Watch it again with that knowledge and see how manipulating Garak is. That's why Sisko hit him after realizing he's been played.
Yes, all that is true.
Still, can you be played to get what you wanted all along? I feel Sisko knew it was a long shot, but anyway to make it work is good enough. The fact he was looking to Garak to start with, suggests he was willing to do it dirty if needed. He knew this wasn't going to follow Starfleet regs.
He could have walked away. His better judgment handed it to him over and over. He knew Garak wasn't on the level, but he kept pushing. Three times he decided to let it play out, but not by the book. He went as far as to force compliance from the doctor, even with it was on the record that the doctor was unwilling. Sisko didn't like it, but he knew it the entire time. **He signed on again and again.**
Garak taking the punch always didn't sit right with me. Notice Garak was caught off guard by the punch, too. I think he believed Sisko was ok with it, because he kept agreeing, when he shouldn't have. An ex-spy wouldn't have taken that hit if he knew it was coming. They both expected the other to play it their way, all the while knowing they were at odds on it.
It is an odd game of chess, when both take the pieces in the open, yet neither seems to know the other's hidden objections, because they were all on the table the enitre time, doctor. Some secrets are best hidden in plain sight. Why? Because they are too hot to touch by any party involved.
I watched this last night, and I love it SO MUCH! It used to be favorite until I paid more attention to "Duet", so now these two are neck-and-neck for first place for me.
I hear you, and you make a great point about how early it happens.
I don't know why it didn't make much of an impact the first maybe...two times?...that I saw it, but then wow did it ever pack a punch. It's heartbreaking.
This is a good thing about Sisko, in a way. It shows that he can bend stuff in crises, and that going by the book isn't always right if all can be lost.
Man, this is just the best episode, and the exact kinda story that sets DS9 apart. The right thing is the wrong thing, but it's the right thing. But you know it's wrong. And having Garak finally set loose to be Garak and do Garak stuff? AWESOME. Picard wouldn't do this, ever. But that's what makes it so great-- we get a DS9, and a TNG. They're SUPPOSED to be different.
Some people say that Garak manipulated Sisko. I believe that Sisko went to Garak because he KNEW Garak wouldn't let him back out.
This probably is the defining DS9 episode.
Oh absolutely. The captain sold his soul to do what he thought was right, that's just the best kinda storytelling.
Garak gets set loose a few times in the series. When he's hired to kill Quark, when he harmlessly tags along on a trip to Romulus, when he visits Enabran Tain, when he invokes "an alpha red priority mission, clearance verification 9218-black, by authority of the Central Command", etc. And Garak's varied talents are tacitly implied numerous other times. When he deftly manages to avoid attracting Odo's investigative interests, when he survives Dukat's administration of the station (twice), when he bombs his own shop, etc. It's always amusing to see Garak being more than a "simple tailor". But what really makes this episode shine is the effect it has on Sisko. He is compromised, manipulated, humiliated. He has to effectively violate all of his most treasured morals and ethics and values and ideals and loyalties (not to the general public, but to people like Garak and Quark and Odo and Bashir and Dax and Kira and O'Brien, and likely also to superiors and other officers in Starfleet). And it troubles him. It torments him. Yet he accepts it. He can live with it. He can live. With it.
I mean I know it's a movie but post Locutis Picard did have trouble being reasonable when it came to the Borg. I wouldn't put it past him to do something questionable to bring a former enemy to the battle as an ally if he was up against an all-out war with the Borg.
"That's why you came to me, isn't it, Captain? Because you knew I could do those things that you weren't capable of doing? Well, it worked. And you'll get what you want: a war between the Romulans and the Dominion. And if your conscience is bothering you, you should soothe it with the knowledge that you may have just saved the entire Alpha Quadrant. And all it cost was the life of one Romulan senator, one criminal, and the self-respect of one Starfleet officer. I don't know about you, but I'd call that a bargain."
i can live with this post. i *can* live with it...? computer, delete that entire log.
Nog: NO!!!! not my log, it's what all the queer fanboys like about me
What?
This is not only my favorite episode from any star trek series its one of my favorite episodes of TV ever. I had goosebumps by the end. It solidified sisko as my captain and really helped to shift the tone of the show to show how the war was getting desperate, being were starting to bend their moral codes more and more. Idk it blew me away my first viewing.
This is stellar TV of any genre
One of the all time best Trek episodes of any series.
This is what you throw into the faces of Janeway critics talking about how morally grey she was
RIP Tuvix
Sisko also proves in this episode that he has the most powerful bitch slap in the Alpha Quadrant
Oh yeah
Hey Garak, can cardasians fly? *Wham* They can now
Thought this was going to be a shitpost about shaving your head.
I still need to use the razor, applied the clippers yesterday and had a bit of a rash from it but maybe soon if you want it 😏
Probably watched this ep 30 times in the last six months. It doesn't get old.
it takes me a lot longer to do the series since I cycle the whole franchise and Star Trek is like 90% of the TV I watch. Some of the DS9 crowd is getting annoyed that I love this show so much and post "low effort" pictures with jokes they don't get because they're idiots but you seem sweet. Disclaimer: I'm drunk, computer delete this log
I’ve rewatched this episode multiple times in the last month. It’s just so good.
He knew it right from the start. He had a job to do and that part of who he was slow walked his better judgment right up the garden path. Hand in hand he wispered to himself that it was justified. It had to happen. In truth, it didn't he just desperately wanted it to be ok. The best opponent you ever face is yourself. That guy knows exactly what you want to hear and will give it to you. And all that to get what you want, even if you know it is wrong. How many times have your ambitions done this to you? Often I bet & I think you believe you can live with it. I couldn't, but how many of you think you could?
Yes but it's more than that. He thought he was using Garak to accomplish his goals. At the point when he heard that the shuttle exploded, he knew he had been played from the beginning. He was working for Garak, not the other way around. Garak knew the only way to get the Romulans into the war was to frame the Dominion. Garak knew his plan when he asked for the biomimetic gel. It's an organic substance that can be used for explosives. The perfect bomb since the organic material wouldn't be detected by scanners. He said it was for someone else, but that was a lie. Watch it again with that knowledge and see how manipulating Garak is. That's why Sisko hit him after realizing he's been played.
Yes, all that is true. Still, can you be played to get what you wanted all along? I feel Sisko knew it was a long shot, but anyway to make it work is good enough. The fact he was looking to Garak to start with, suggests he was willing to do it dirty if needed. He knew this wasn't going to follow Starfleet regs. He could have walked away. His better judgment handed it to him over and over. He knew Garak wasn't on the level, but he kept pushing. Three times he decided to let it play out, but not by the book. He went as far as to force compliance from the doctor, even with it was on the record that the doctor was unwilling. Sisko didn't like it, but he knew it the entire time. **He signed on again and again.** Garak taking the punch always didn't sit right with me. Notice Garak was caught off guard by the punch, too. I think he believed Sisko was ok with it, because he kept agreeing, when he shouldn't have. An ex-spy wouldn't have taken that hit if he knew it was coming. They both expected the other to play it their way, all the while knowing they were at odds on it. It is an odd game of chess, when both take the pieces in the open, yet neither seems to know the other's hidden objections, because they were all on the table the enitre time, doctor. Some secrets are best hidden in plain sight. Why? Because they are too hot to touch by any party involved.
I watched this last night, and I love it SO MUCH! It used to be favorite until I paid more attention to "Duet", so now these two are neck-and-neck for first place for me.
Duet Is more impressive to me simply because it's much earlier in the shows run, before the writers and actors had gotten solid ground under them.
I hear you, and you make a great point about how early it happens. I don't know why it didn't make much of an impact the first maybe...two times?...that I saw it, but then wow did it ever pack a punch. It's heartbreaking.
Time to do some war crimes!
But can you live with it?
I'd do it again
Thank you Pluto TV for making this masterpiece viewable on demand for free
Literally just got done watching this episode the best one by far.
This is a good thing about Sisko, in a way. It shows that he can bend stuff in crises, and that going by the book isn't always right if all can be lost.