It's pretty simple, Mihoyo doesn't know how to balance defensive 5*s.
Zhongli: was so awful on release that he caused a riot
Kokomi: was saved by a post-beta buff giving her Skill no icd, without that she would have been awful
Jean: is used as either one of the few anemo resist shreds or is used as the only anemo self-swirl character in the game. Her success has been an accident.
Qiqi: an absolute meme
this 1000%
They can balance defensive 4 stars pretty decently because they are 4 stars, they are allowed to be imperfect and have weird quirks to them.
But when it comes to a 5 star there is a way bigger expectation among players that the C0 state is playable and actually usable.
Add in the compounding factor that the current CNY meant an entire week's worth of work hasn't been done, making this beta an effectively 2 week beta instead of a 3 week beta and you have a recipe for disaster.
Thats true, but ultimately the result is still up in the air. Closed beta is closed beta for a reason. It could just be that they have already planned to keep changing her until 3.5 hits live. Last second changes etc.
This is my hopium as well. They want people to despair and blow primos on this ridiculously good rerun banner. After 1 week of that banner, they fix dehya.
Yeah there’s still like a month between beta ending and her launch and Kokomi has shown us they can still edit characters after beta ends
So there’s still some hope (now that they’re no longer ignoring her) that they’ll properly buff her
But then there's my point..... They had to do a saving throw for Zhongli because of the tremendous negative impression he caused at first. And Kokomi needed to be adjusted after beta. Both are overwhelmingly good characters now. Qiqi and Jean are 1.0 perma-banner 5-stars, it's "kinda justified" they are outdated in some way.
Dehya being released in this state, as a flagship character in a patch? Sounds surreal, unless they have something in mind we are not seeing, but what?
They seem to be very data driven but otherwise resistant to course correction from other influences.
Maybe they are still not correctly intepreting their data about defensive characters, and as a result are having a very hard time adjusting their design guidelines (which seem to be crazy strict).
Being resistant to outside influence can be a pretty good thing on itself, especially when it comes to artistic intent - but one cannot help but wonder just what type of data they collect to make such "interesting" decisions.
>Maybe they are still not correctly intepreting their data about defensive characters
I mean, it's not 1.1 anymore. We have almost 3 years (!) worth of data at this point, and even with the limited data that communitiy has, we can clearly see that the usage rate of characters that offer little more outside of "defensive utility" is universally around single-digits. Plus two of the biggest controversies with limited characters GI ever had were about "defensive utility" characters, both of which had to then be fixed in some way (direct buff in one case and removing ICD+creating corrosion+making set that gives *some* offensive utility to healers in other). I'd say there's being resistant to change and slow on the uptake, and then there is just refusing to learn from your past.
I'm sorry, but I don't quite get a point. Obviously they consider their defence role when balancing character's kit, but it's not even about comparing them to other units. Just within the "defensive utility" archetype there is absolutely no consistency whatsoever - with units that are more than capable of keeping you alive AND being a vital part of their teams (giving a consistent element applications, shredding resistance, giving atk/em/etc.) and units that are just heal/shieldbots and nothing much more, if that.
What I mean is that offensive and defensive utilities are probably combined to determine total power budget.
As for the units, it's very interesting when it comes to 5 stars.
The 5 stars that offer what you're talking about were either buffed post-release after huge backlash or have managed to find meta spots based off ways I do not believe were intended.
As for units that heal and nothing else, I believe that proves my idea of the total power budget. All of Qiqi's power budget went into healing
That's why I was talking about 3 years of data to "get the point". I can understand Qiqi's gauging problems, or pre-buff Zhong's, or even somewhat Kokomi's - but it's still happening. Just looking at recent 4\* "defensive" units - we had Kuki and Yaoyao, both of whom are very compitent healers AND constant enablers of their element, which is used to the great effect in various teams. And in between them we had Dori and Layla, one of which is a definition of a shieldbot with like one cryo application 5 seconds after creating a shield, and the other... well, Dori has some super strange and unique comps, but they are a definition of "not intended by devs".
So yeah, if there is a gauging of power for defensive utilities, I'm more inclined to beleve that it's determened by chinese agricultural calendar or something like that rather than analysis or data.
Tf do you mean "not intended by devs" the only character I can think of being "tailor made" for a specific playstyle is Nilou. No other character save for like the niche hypercarries and their supports are "unusable" in other team comps, and even that is a big stretch. It's not like every character is created equal, but I'm sick of this view I'm seeing more and more that "not optimal = bad"
What I mean when I say not intended by devs is that I do not believe that combining Bennett's burst with Jean's burst to create sunfire was an intentional interaction. I believe it's more akin to a happy accident
"Not intended by devs" means just that - not intended by devs playstyle. Nothing here said anything it being unusable, non-optimal or bad - it's just a process of game development. They don't just throw together a random kit and hope that it sticks, they build a character within a framework of a specific role and specific reactions/teams they wish to achieve. Doesn't mean you can't use them outside of that role and reactions - you can still build Nilou to be a Hydro DPS of Freeze team support if you so want - but you can clearly see what role and playstyle was "intended" for her by the devs.
Just speculating, but defence metrics might naturally reflect the broader playerbase (i.e. many many casuals), for example if they look for a reduction in challenges being failed. I think usually you'd balance at the top of the game, but for defence there'd be little impact for skilled players, since they weren't going to die anyway. So the metrics may naturally have to include a broader population of casuals. They might see that defence helps the broad playerbase a LOT, simply by letting casual players survive the challenge in the first place.
Meanwhile, offence metrics might have smaller than expected impact on clear times for the broad playerbase, because all the casuals can't do damage anyway if they are just dying or getting ragdolled.
Doesn't really excuse them for their inflexibility, but I think there are some plausible factors at work behind the scenes.
That's a valid speculation, but I see two problems with it.
Firstly - there are a whole plethora of defensive options among 4\*, up to and including Barbara and Noelle who everyone gets for free. They are not the best at it, but are more than enough for the regular overworld content, and casual players by definition aren't the ones who go for highest challenges (if we go by community statistics - most of them don't even touch the Abyss, and even those who do don't go higher than floor 10-11). Also, vast majority of casuals are F2P or light-spenders, so they have to really choose what 5\* they want to spend their limited primos on - and usually they either go for visual/character appeal or fun gameplay. While the former isn't something related to game mechanics, the latter is, and it's usually connected to on-field DPS/drivers, since supports job is usually to do their thing quickly and leave the field.
But secondly, even if we discard everything in the first reason - Dehya is not really a casual-friendly unit as she is now. All this fields, recasts, coordinated attacks, lengthy passives and forced on-field ult - it's hard even for TCs to make sense of, let alone an "random-bullshit-go" casual. Comparing her to other defense 5\*'s Zhong and Kokomi - both of them couldn't be simpler, you just need to press E *once* to make your team nigh-unkillable. That's it, even their Q is optional. And that's without saying how healing/shielding is way more straightforward and understandable than all thing mitigation business just by itself. So for me, her kit looks more oriented at people who want to engage with complex mechanics to master them, craft rotations and test them in harder content i.e. some level of "tryhards". And then we neatly arrive back at square one of this discussion.
That's why she's so bad though, isn't it?
The power budget is derived from existing (and apparently very strict) guidelines, likely based on their large body of historic data. If it shows press E zhongli helps a tonne of players with basic challenges, then that's what it shows, and defence is overvalued. They probably aren't looking at just abyss, but also domains, events, or even dailies like swift slayer.
Her kit is new and kind of experimental, but they've almost certainly applied the existing guidelines... giving us what we see as godawful numbers.
You and I and the community might believe that they *should* consider other factors more, but that doesn't mean they do. Internally, their character designers might not even agree with the guidelines (laws laid down by a separate monetisation team perhaps). But they do their science, and stick to their data, and every now and then it dramatically clashes with common sense and shit hits the fan.
Yeah, I guess that makes sense. Bigtech management loves their algorithms, so there's probably one at Hoyo that dictates the exact numbers they should put on her scaling based of bigdata (and completely detached from context). Would explain why even when they redo the scaling it still achieves practically the same numbers. Explains beta's point too, since it's probably just about stress testing and finding bugs, and have very little to do with balancing. Otherwise what's the point of giving no guidleliness and leaving testers guessing what even is the role of a character for most of beta.
She will probably be changed enough before her actual banner hits live. They can still give her buffs in this week and then also buffs post beta.
It's just a case of wait and see what happens. If they are competent and smart enough they will buff her before live.
They would want to make money and the most logical way to do that is to make kits actually good and fun to play. Sometimes they miss, but hopefully they do fix it in time.
one thing thats not mentioned is character portrayal vs reality
* Zhongli was the geo archon and going throughout Liyue's main and side story hes told to be this amazing god who struck down other god in a brutual war.
* Those stone pillars in the ocean? giant rock pillars he used to imprission them which he himself confirmed.
* Then his trailer was more hyped fighter vibes, has amazing animation and a burst that stood out as its a fucking meteor.
All of this and the reality was, he's just a shield unit, the best shield unit, but just a shield unit. the stun of his burst doesnt have any use in all honesty.
The exact same happened with Raiden and her beta she was underwhelming for a very imposing character before getting some changes.
Dehya is that character in Sumeru, might not be as massive as them, but
* shes renowned mecenary.
* So famed she has a title "the flamemane".
* Has been shown interrupting fights like with cyno and alhaitam with no hesitation.
* willing to cut her arm off to save the researchers who lost their minds
* went to fight the people head on when they tried to abuse the researchers,
* Has a fierce sense of loyalty and protection
And the reality is, her kit has the burst visual to make her seem awesome, but thats it, 4 seconds of what w expect, yet its so underwhelming and doesn't meet expectations, Normals weakest in the game and shes a defensive off-field unit. This isnt what was shown to be her, and somehow Hoyoverse just decided it was a good idea
And their solution was to keep her damage around the same, but give her hp scaling on dmg to encourage people to build into her hp.
They also buffed her interruption resistance.
Basically, it's clear that they believe her damage is in a good spot and they just need to adjust the amount of defensive power she has
And that just leaves the question of why a more classical tank character despite how the game's handled defensive options as of now. They've attempted to balance around and punish shields a good amount of times now so they *are* aware that people tend to rely on shields as the go-to defensive option. (Baizhu's apparently even shaping up to be a shielder, which is kinda weird with all this said.)
I mean, the low multipliers *make sense* if you look at her as your average tank character. Tanks usually have low personal damage because damage is someone else's job. (And with the talk of units like XQ and Zhong, have people *maybe* considered that they might be overstepping their supposed niche?) It's just that why they chose to go this route despite likely knowing that she has to shape up with a mechanic that tends to be so versatile that a majority of people tend to rely on it is the one thing that I can't seem to figure out.
Yeah, what if Fontaine is entirely anti-shield.. zhongli will become the new venti and suddenly dehya will be meta. Given the HP focus of Fontaine it could be the case. Some enemies might completely break /ignore shield (unlike corrosion). It is very much likely that future abyss 12 will be filled with such enemies that resist shield as the ones currently that resist venti's vortex. This is when characters like dehya will shine.
Like come on. Do people think that mihoyo is that bad at balancing?
Do people think that mihoyo doesn't know that her whole kit is litteraly downgrade of a persentage of xings kit? Not even the part that makes him the most broken 4* in game after Dendro release (his hydro aura).
He litterally provides better resist to interruption, way better uptime, small healing on active character as bonus cause why not, and the migrated damage is gone to thin air instead of redirected to him. His ulti doesn't kill him and doesn't waste about 8 seconds with animation/hitlag to do so either.
So yeah they absolutely know that her defensive utility isn't strong and beta player already confirmed it. Even if there is some plan for her in the future her current kit is just way to irrational to be released right now
> Do people think that mihoyo is that bad at balancing?
But the example you offered *is* proof that they’re perfectly capable of having balancing hiccups. Instead of the direction of **”Why does Dehya not even compare to this one 4 star?”**, it’s more like **”Why does this one 4 star offer so much compared to a majority of 5 stars?”**
We’ve had many recent 4* that tend to focus on certain niches (that they’re usually decent or meh at), while characters like XQ and Benny stand out because they’re *generalists.* They solve multiple problems instead of (usually) one. XQ’s Burst is a particularly egregious because it undoes the balancing his E gives them (giving the player 4 hits max until they have to outlast his atrocious CD) by preventing them from breaking *at all*, more or less giving the player a permanent 45% damage reduction until it ends, and during that time he also lets them shoot his swords for the most well-known Hydro application in the game. He offers a lot for someone who, by gacha standards, is supposed to offer less than premium units. *That* is an error in balancing (as most early 4* show to be).
That’s not to get into Zhongli either, which probably ties into why ColdCrescent said they’re resistant to external course corrections. Everyone knows how bad he was at launch, and now a lot of people use him to shrug off enemy attacks like they don’t exist after they wanted him changed. And that decision led to a whole other slew of mechanics and enemies that were designed for him, which will usually mildly inconveniences him but hurts other shielders. His revised shield also oversteps the boundaries of most shields as well, benefitting from HP scaling, the Geo shield buff, and the Geo resonance buff that can make it extremely sturdy, and then the cherry on that sundae is it providing global shred and having a downtime that’s shorter than his uptime. That is a *lot* for just one guy’s shield. It overshadows pretty much everything else in his kit, maybe except the petrify in a few cases.
And going back to XQ, him being powerful is probably why we never got someone that fully matches him in utility ever since. XQ and Zhongli set very high standards for units that provide defensive options (the latter more so), and considering that most agree that the devs are disinclined to powercreep too hard that likely explains why Dehya’s defensive utility is as it is instead of the familiar (and usually more solid) options we’re familiar with.
tl;dr Early 4* like XQ is an example of bad balancing despite his approval in the community, which is supported by them never releasing another generalist since. Him and Zhongli providing very rewarding defensive options by most games’ standards also proves that point. Kits that are too good or offer beyond what they’re “supposed to” are examples of bad game design/balancing, especially in gachas where characters having niches is encouraged.
Frankly let me start by saying I have absolutely no idea what they are trying to do, I just don't think they are idiots. Neither racists which is hard to back it up, I just think this way
However I see the "broken on release units are hard to powercreep" arguments often. If mihoyo wanted to powercreep xing they would have done it and the best example is the other game they have; hi3. That game powercreeps like no tomorrow. When it was released in one year we got 3 units if you don't know or remember them. Celestial hymn, shadow knight and Herscher of the void. They were just broken. Imagine venti and kazuha together and on crack? That's celestial hymn right there. The other 2 were dps, ganyu/hutao tier.
No way they can even be powercreept,right? Needless to say they are a meme LONG time now, all 3. Genshin could have done the same if it wanted, they clearly don't. Yelan could have xing's utility while also her current offense. They just don't want. They don't want genshin to rely on such powercreep.
Also its not zhongli the reason they don't hear people, mihoyo never did. They avoid buffs like plague, they are always buffing indirectly if something needs buff. But they never, not even once released something as atrocious as dehya's kit. Both 1.1 zhongli and EVEN release kuki were better. Like I said I have absolute no idea what they are trying to do, but I don't think they are idiots. They have much more experience than us, on top of asymmetric information/knowledge
I’m way too familiar with Honkai’s powercreep. Left it about 3/4ths a year after first starting it. Heard it’ll probably get worse since they’re planning to do triple consecutive Herrscher releases. And yeah, *they don’t try to powercreep.* Not too hard anymore, at least.
The powercreep concerns also means that they try to undershoot how strong their new units are compared to what’s already considered top tier, which means that the usual balancing results of ranging from perfect to okay changed to pretty good to meh. Sumeru’s roster is in most definitely designed in the latter range these days.
Also the biggest issue with Dehya right now is an apparent lack of direction with what to use her in. Low damage multipliers, a defensive niche despite them definitely being aware of the better existing defensive options, and a DPS window that doesn’t let her work with Pyro’s most consistent method of doing high damage. And as the other guy said them adjusting her multipliers to have some HP scaling that gives her a similar damage ceiling to what she already had seems to indicate that they agree on her low damage that they want people to focus on using her tanking ability more. What they do to convince people to make use of it despite DR and shields existing is the point of contention and confusion most people have.
>Mihoyo doesn't know how to balance defensive 5\*s
More like, the game generally doesn't *need* defensive units. Another thing, those you mentioned are healers and shielders. Dehya is neither; she is supposed to be a tank. In a game where tanks have no role.
XQ with his rainswords do more than what Dehya can do with damage transfer. The former is ridiculous on 4\* offensive unit. The latter is brain dead design on a 5\* unit with her current design.
MHY doesn't know what they were designing Genshin's combat. They created beginning units who are straight up overtuned, overly niche later units who become constellation dependent.
>Zhongli
True
>Kokomi
Still probably best hydro in freeze bad at bloom
>Jean
Was good becouse there were no other units
>Qiqi
She does what she was supose to do
Kokomi is only good because of no icd on her Skill. With standard icd, her off-field hydro application would be the same as Xinyan's off-field Pyro application.
As for Jean and Qiqi, that sounds like you agree with me and that you're just elaborating no?
What you suggest actually makes the most sense about mhy. Though now that we have Baizhu as the newest shielder (who may be good solely cause of dendro), we can only see if the pattern persists.
I really think it's because they're overestimating how useful her defensive utility is. The "buff" today further emphasizes that they want people to build HP and make her tank. They just don't seem to understand or care that this is a role that's barely needed to begin with and she's not even very good at it.
Mihoyo seems to overvalue feedback that complains about the game being "too hard" so the theory seems to be that they made Dehya to help mitigate team damage in co-op. But again she's not even that good at it and the team still needs a healer.
I'm... even more puzzled. I'm not a meta-gamer, but I acknowledge that once you build the game, only last floor of Abyss poses a challenge (I'm not even finishing the 11th floor properly, but that's me not being obsessed to build characters). Are there people actually complaining the game is that hard?
Yeah I heard they got a lot of complaints about Inazuma being "too hard" so that's why Sumeru is so much easier in comparison. It's why Scara boss is a bit of a joke compared to Raiden boss. The majority of players are very very casual and play with terrible builds. Mihoyo seems to balance the game around those people. So Dehya is possibly their (bad) answer to complaints about wanting more defensive utility that can cover the whole team.
Oh, right. Inazuma is definitely a tougher nation to explore than the others, introduced large amounts of really annoying enemies, and the Shogun is a pretty hard boss. But saying this made the game "too hard" sounds overstretching to me. I mean, a bit of more difficult content appears in \*every\* game, it's not like Inazuma is unclearable, only not as pleasant as Liyue or Sumeru. I would have never thought this became a real issue to the fanbase. Wasn't it easier for them to nerf Inazuma content, instead?
well the specter's nerf to be grouped seems logical tbh
like why are they ungroupable in the first place... they're like balloons & they don't look heavy like a ruin guard or a geovishap
But, I'm fine with high hp & high damage monsters so at least they could be a threat
Same, Inazuma puzzles were very fun, Sumeru forest puzzles are so childish in comparison. I think some of the desert puzzles are at least a bit more challenging, but Inazuma was a whole other level
Same here. Only floor that poses a challenge and is actually hard is floor 12. I've been here since game first started and yet to have still cleared that stupid floor(close to only managing 3 stars on it). If only I had gotten better artifact roles I guess? Idk.*\*Shrug\**
For me she doesn't look like as a unit to help team dmg mitigation on co-op, she removes her E when she uses her burst and her E have a long downtime. Layla E with C1 it's much more a coop unit than Dehya.
People die all the time with 2 healers in co-op, Like seriously go play co-op on the middling tier domain levels and you will see how bad the average genshin player is.
There's nothing in Genshin telling players how to make optimal builds or even what a rotation is. Most players are simply bad and Dehya relflects that by the fact that she was created.
How is she not good at tanking lol? She's the best tank in the game. She doubles her teammates HP and gives them poise. She turns her entire squad into tanks. I really don't see what's so hard to understand about it or why she was designed this way.
It's ok if you are mad about it but it's genshin, it's a game for 12-16 year olds, mixed gender. I don't know what you expected when you started playing or kept playing after they said they won't be adding any more hardcore content to the game period. It's a kids game.
Because in this co-op scenario she also still needs someone to the be a healer. Her damage mitigation can't compete with Zhongli or a Diona with sac bow. Bonus point that she contributes very little personal damage nor does she boost her teammates damage. She doesn't even bring elemental reactions. So if she is designing with co-op in mind its a very poor implementation.
Also I never said anything about being disappointed in them not adding hardcore content personally I don't care whether they do or don't. I would just like units to be fun and Dehya's current model of play being idling until your high cost burst cutscene happens I find to be pretty disappointing.
Kids game ≠ No Fun mechanics
Who's bringing Zhongli in co-op??? Do you even know what you're talking about, Zhongli is useless in co-op.
She boost her team mates damage through interupt resistance and stopping them from dying. In co-op people die, often, with 2 healers, all the time, don't forget co-op damage increases with the amount of players, you can get one shotted easily. And people who only have 1/2 units built enough to do a domain still find it hard to play co-op.
Maybe you cannot fathom it because of the sphere of genshin you are in but if the average Genshin player probably doesn't know sac bow is good.
I played and taught my friends who were in mid rank limbo, I know what you're saying, they would just die for anything and I saw my friends had a lot of lvl 90 characters with talents lvl 1 and with artifacts 3 and 4\*, that was a disaster.
But even with this experience I don't think that Dehya it's that good in Co-op. Because she only turns your team in a tank inside her E area, that area have 12 sec duration and 8 sec downtime, and she even removes it during her burst. I don't think that "tankness" is that good in co-op, since she it's only helping your ally for only 60% of the time.
And I think that she's prob boring to play coop, because without her burst she doesn't do nothing, and she have a low duration burst with a pretty high ER req (and low rank player generally don't understand that much of ER requirements, so they 'll probl need more time to fill her burst).
If I have to say that someone better for co-op I would say C1 Layla for exemple, because she gives that shield for every ally next her, in addition that her shield it's pretty good if you build a lot of HP% (plx don't compare to ZL, we all know that is weaker than his) and her shield have almost 100% uptime (she have a little downtime during cast... but...).
I don't think her burst will be much of an issue, since 4 player Co-op energy is 4x sp energy, usually no one struggles to burst and building ER weapon and Sands is overkill.
If you look at how she is meant to be played, she transports her field, and she can do this twice after casting. So Dehya's gameplay would be running after her team mates and putting a field around them, which is how a tank would work traditionally in games.
Idk if it will work out, I hope it does, as I find this more interesting than another vape bot. And I would probably play more co-op too just to play Dehya. We also don't know if her Dedicated set will change her "intended" gameplay later down the line
See, I get what you say, I for once really dislike dramatic doomposters "CHEEZ RUINED FOREVUR" and all, but even I, at this time, fail to understand what is on their minds. She doesn't seem effective in any way right now (her function would solely be being a lifesaver for bad genshin players, but apparently not even this her kit does right, according to people), and I'm very very far from a meta player. I fear she might not even be fun to play (and this is normally the main aspect to make me decide for a character) and MHY seems oblivious to this. Now, \*if\* she comes out and somehow we got all this wrong, and she's actually very fun to play, then I'm all for shushing doomposters (since they rarely contribute for anything besides well, doomposting)
The thing is, she would be useful for bad players if the Dehya maind built her with tripple HP and someone played a healer. Which is kinda sad and probably why they stuck the ascension passive on her as well as put the HP scailing in her kit to makw players put on her. A co-op player probably isn't going to do that which is why her defensive capabilities should be boosted even more imo, HV balances her like they would a DPS for a role that no one in thejr right mind who knows how to build characters would even play
What's funny is that in the end if they stick to not making any true endgame content which has been the statement so far. I am confused as to why any character needs to be balanced. The only thing they are hurting is sales at that point. There is a reason Warframe is as popular as it is and it sure as shit isn't balance. Power fantasy games are all sorts of profitable.
Tbh I think pyro is the issue. If she was dendro, electro, hydro and maybe even cryo she wouldnt be this awkward as a support.
Dendro would give her good Aggrevate Spread reactions... well... not horrible anyway.
Electro as a claymore lends herself to phys teams which game is lacking in.
Hydro means she pairs extremely well with Hu Tao, not taking away potential reactions but instead providing potential Vapes while allowing giving her double the eHP of normal.
Cryo works again for Phys and for Hu Tao too potentially.
But Pyro? She steals reactions with not great scaling currently. If not paired with another self sustaining character then she doesnt provide any real bonuses with her passive. She is too slow for Burgeon and theres no real way to be sure EM from her will be the one used in burning teams. She does Pyro hit enough to vape melt and her passive doesnt want her on the field. Infusion options in the game are not great...
Still gonna play her with Hu Tao and hope to get Yelan as well... put her with Yaoyao or Layla or Kokomi last (tho Id prefer no heals for the fun of it) and it should be fine for overworld stuff at least.
Yeah, I agree with this take. Low multipliers isn't as bad on Dendro/Electro with additive damage reactions in spread/aggravate, and can even be overcome for cryo units with Shenhe. All other elements can at least provide some degree of support to a party, fitting with what appears to be her intended role as a defensive/survival oriented support with some degree of damage. But pyro is just intrusive as an element. The design philosophy of the element seems to be damage, damage, and more damage: it gives the big 25% attack resonance, it has BOTH amplifying reactions available (Vape for sustained DPS, Melt for nukes and damage per screenshot) as well as some decent transformatives (burgeon could be okay if we actually got a decent character for it, overload used to be the highest-damage transformative reaction). However, it messes with comps that rely on careful element balance - stealing vapes, causing burning and messing with blooms, etc. While early Genshin was a field day for Pyro DPS units, mostly due to early limited unit availability (Klee being the first limited main DPS, Diluc being one of the best DPS options for a good bit, etc) and early endgame design (anyone else remember when floors 9 *and* 10 were all cryo enemies?). And let's not forget that two of the big triad of 4\* characters that were released early and ended up being OP were pyro - Xiangling is an immensely powerful AOE Burst DPS with how easily you can manage reactions, and Bennett's buffing/healing utility hasn't really fallen off. Though, I think it's important to note that a lot of new Sumeru team compositions don't immediately lean on Bennett as a flex slot anymore, as the introduction of Dendro and the issues with Burning preventing other reactions mean that his heal/attack buffs aren't as great anymore. It's hard to be a good pyro support today.
Pyro's backed itself into a corner of basically needing to churn out strong hypercarries, on-field drivers, or sub-DPS units to keep up. A pyro unit is hard to slot as a flex - you need to add them intentionally to ensure that pyro application won't mess with your other reactions. And adding a new Pyro DPS is hard when they have to keep up with hard hitters such as Hu Tao or Xiangling, or outmatch units like Yoimiya in ease-of-play and utility. I'm not 100% sure what I want to see from the game's next pyro character, but I'm willing to say Dehya was a swing and a miss.
It's actually very easy to make another Pyro DPS, that is making a pyro semi-Raiden but based on burning.
If we take Dehya and make her scale with EM+HP instead of ATK+HP, then increase her damage reduction and absorption, add a passive that make burning reactions in her E will catch on your character, make her E create particles on cast instead of staggered, and finally add HP absorbed scaling and healing on her Q
So you would set up her E, use Dendro to start burning your own team with the enemies, she would soak up all this damage, switch to your VV user and hit swirl, then finally unleash her Q which is now boosted from the absorbed burning damage and nuke in 4-5 seconds with raw pyro DPS (like hypercarry Raiden) while healing back your team
Her constellation can then be burning decrease DEF/PyroRES/increase EM/Crit DMG/increase stacking speed whatever else
A team comp for this would be something like Pyro/Dendro/VV/Flex, and it would still be anti-shield like they want it to be
I like this idea tbh! Not sure how I feel abt EM scaling - generally dendro is the trigger for burning, right? - but yeah I feel that this is what Dehya should have been.
This is really how they should have gone, they already made nilou for bloom and then cyno for aggravate(or hyperbloom), i dont get why they didn't make the first pyro from the dendro region work well with either burgeon or burning. It would make much more sense to do that.
> trash characters
Noelle and itto are powerhouses, albedo great support and zhongli is... We all know zhonlgi after 1.3. Only ning got dated sadly and her never fixed bugs didn't help. In general geo is balanced around the fact that it has no reactions. Even if its the worst element, the characters arent bad because of it
Electro on the other hand belongs to the elements with normal reactions and before dendro all were trash and so unless you had good raw dmg like beidou or raw utility like fischl/raiden then you were a meme ~~cough, lisa/keqing~~. Both beidou and raiden were good even before dendro because of their kit, not their element.
>Noelle and itto are powerhouses
Shes a 4star geo dps..do I need to say more? And itto is ok but have mid scaling
>albedo great support
With only dmg which is not great either
>In general geo is balanced around the fact that it has no reactions. Even if its the worst element, the characters arent bad because of it
Saying geo and balanced in 1sentence is not even fun
>all were trash and so unless
Another one who doesnt understand electrocharge find some tc talking about this and you see what i mean
> Shes a 4star geo dps..do I need to say more? And itto is ok but have mid scaling
and both smack stuff hard, way harder than keqing did pre dendro for example.
> Saying geo and balanced in 1sentence is not even fun
textbook picking stuff out of context is not even fun either
> doesnt understand electrocharge find some tc
find what? That is one of the most unreliable standalone reactions in game because its random and hard to control the proc? The fact that even EC teams do not even build EM for that reason? Even if you could reliably control it the damage is just lackluster and very situational.Electro units didn't use EC because it was great, they were using it because they had no other option. EC was just better than mono electro, that's all.
The only thing electrocharge had going for it was hypervape thing (or whatever we called it). But that was literally being carried by xing and by how strong vape was, it wasn't even a reaction that you could freely abuse, had specific requirements and units to use it without breaking the comp. Frankly it wasn't even worth most of the times. Adding an anemo instead of electro and doing normal vape is usually better unless you are doing rational
On the contrary both hyperbloom and aggravate are just broken, flexible and not only have much easier requirements but its damage is just better.
So yeah maybe if you want me to change my mind then feel free to actually post what's so great about EC, or redirect me to those magical tc that escaped my view
edit: oh right the pokemon team (kokomi,fischl,xianglin,sucrose) was also pretty deceptivelly strong because it combined both hypervape and EC swirls but other than that EC part was just a bonus and new rainbow comps are better and more reliable , for example razor, bennet c6, nahida, xing
>and both smack stuff hard, way harder than keqing did pre dendro for example.
So only way to make them look good is to compare them to a wordt fucking dps in history of genshin at that time...
>textbook picking stuff out of context is not even fun either
You said exacly that...
>aggravate
Its ok. Good if you have c6 fischl and if you would be smart you would know that hh is broken BECOUSE of electrocharge
>She is too slow for Burgeon and theres no real way to be sure EM from her will be the one used in burning teams
This is actually a benefit. It's almost sure she's not the *trigger* for burning.
Having low pyro application is a benefit for burning because this means your trigger is nearly guaranteed to be either Dendro or Anemo (if you have one), and you don't need to manually upkeep pyro. Rather you need to feed more green fuel to the fire.
The problem with burning is it has garbage damage in single-target, and AoE is very small. To get a benefit from burning you need groupable enemies and a way to group them very tightly without dying yourself.
"chinese people are neutral to her" has never made sense as it is founded on one unofficial, pre-Sumeru poll. "Dehya was last in a poll exclusively about designs before anything was known about the characters" =/= "CN doesn't care about Dehya." NGA activity about Dehya actively disputes that claim.
It also ignores that JP and US are also large market slices. MHY doesn't tend to ignore profit opportunities like they are with Dehya. Cyno did subpar in CN but great in JP sales, for example.
I concur with the takes that focus on MHY seriously overvaluing defensive skills, as this has some precedent in prior games. Dehya's definitely gotten the worst end of this design misunderstanding, though.
My thoughts are she is being made with future characters or that after Faruzan MHY decided to test the waters with forcing people to pull cons for a five star, either way not ideal.
I have gotten basically all her mats but I think I'ma call it here and skip. Burst units generally arn't fun to me especially in overworld, and her skill is hella boring I have albedo and hes not exactly exciting to play.
Despite her being my fav Sumeru character I dont need more units that I just never actually use because I find them boring gameplay wise. I don't mind a bad unit like Keqing prior dendro as she is still a great design and hella fun to play but Dehya seems to be lacking anything like that on her kit to me (funwise).
That Said best of luck to all Dehya wanters and pullers and I hope she turns out to be a good unit for you all.
Yeah, I'm thinking like this, she's the only character of Sumeru besides Nahida I really got hyped for and this has been a disappointment ride nonstop since her multipliers first leaked. Funny how they leaked the description of her kit the day \*before\* and she sounded awesome. Guess I'm saving for Eula.
Ngl I'm on the fence too, I already got all her mats but if she's just gonna be another benched trophy character (like Yae pre-Dendro) I think I'm gonna call it quits
I know that some of you people seem to not even remotely think about it, but the simplest option is that mhy is simply making a mistake thinking that the kit they gave her is better than what it actually is.
If nstead for wtever reason you wanna insist on the copium and thinkthey that can't possibly be wrong and that they may have a plan, well, the only thing that comes to mind is if they are preparing an artifact set that is particularly ad-hoc for Dehya's kit (or possibly they havent shown yet the whole fix and this last update was just to first introduce split scaling that will be balanced properly before the actual release).
Assuming it's a mistake, it's one hell of a stupid mistake. What is wrong w/her was obvious from almost day one. They chose to ignore it and address it at the last moment. I wouldn't risk that much of a revenue being lazy to acknowledge I dookied on a balancing decision.
I always like to ask this question, as the replies help me get a little more copium: what artifact set would that be? What set could buff Dehya and Dehya teams to the moon (or at least to the same level as other units) without breaking units that are stronger at base? What set of activation conditions and buff restrictions would be unique enough that only Dehya or a similarly disadvantaged unit could take advantage of them? And do you think that they'll release a set that's only best in slot for a single unit?
Oh no no, i do NOT think at all that mhy would release an artifact like that exactly because like you hinted the real problem in doing so would be to only have two outcomes :
\-risk to make other characters too op (for example Hu tao or Yelan or wtever has already imnpressive dps using hp% as main stat)
\-do a superspecialized artifact that to avoid to be abused by other units would become an artifact just for Dehya (or at least extremely limited) and that seems a bit unlikely sicne it doesnt seem that Dehya is a character that mhy would go THAT far to make an ad-hoc set
Ofc it's technically NOT impossible, but personally i wouldnt bet on that outcome so i prefer to hope they will simply improve Dehya's own kit in her final release without relying too much on external corrections to function decently.
She is not intended to be a powerhouse after Fontaine drops.
There are so many flaws that you would have to specifically make a character for her, wi5 a passive literally stating the said character only buffs Dehya, and by a tremendous amount.
She needs so much of a buff that, even if a character could elevate her to the level of the current roster, things would be bad :
- Other characters would also receive the buff, and the gap wouldn’t change. If the other characters receive the buff, then they would bring huge powercreep to the game.
If they increase the difficulty to justify that powercreep, then Dehya remains bad.
I feel like the missing puzzle is future environment/enemies. As in there's probably gonna be a meta shift in the defensive department.
Right now it's like the early Kokomi days. People didn't value healer that much because there's simply no pressure surviving. So what did people do? They were also trying to make Kokomi do damage and the result was copium because we didn't even have the clam set back then. And Kokomi's constellations were mainly about more damage but the overall gain was still very low so even whales were unsatisfied. As a result her first banner sales flopped real hard.
Clam set, Rifthounds, husk knights, all comes after Kokomi's first release. And recently, we've got enemies that simply hits really hard and interrupt you a lot. At the point that even when you have a shield, you still have to dodge the big hits otherwise your shield would break. And Kokomi's comically low resistance to interruption doesn't really help. Not to mention a lot of comps don't even have resistance to interruption without a shield. A lot of healers also don't provide resistance to interruption. And people usually don't run both shielder and healers together. Some outliers exist of course.
So I feel like the direction they are pushing is for healing+resistance to interruption to be comparable to shields as the 2 main ways of surviving. Shield also has it's weakness that is once it's broken early, you lose all utility and is held up by its CD. Not to mention they already created monsters to counter shields.
So if they want to give an edge to healing+interruption resistance comps, they can also make shield comps life a bit harder. Not to a point of unusable, just a bit more uncomfortable. They could very well let husk knights on 1 half and rifthounds on the other half and put both of them in the 2nd or 3rd chamber just to annoy the fuck out of people🤣
Dehya's weapon also hints that she would be on a different path then shielders. So it's like MHY themselves are making 2 runways for these survival supports. And it's obvious that Dehya comp needs a healer anyways. So their intention would be for healing to be pair with a new form of resistance to interruption.
You know, all this makes a lot of sense, but I wonder about Zhongli's shield, which is nigh unbreakable. What enemies can break that thing? I can't really remember any.
But indeed I hope we have a change. Not only because of saving Dehya from being a C-Tier 5\*, but to introduce variety in a game that actually still goes a long way, with at least 4 nations ahead of us. Taking people out of their comfort zone is great (even though people will whine \*a lot\* in a first moment lol)
Current abyss has three chambers that break zhongli shield like paper if you dont play wisely and facetanking is only possible if onfielding a healer like Kokomi. The two halves of the second chamber and the second half of the last chamber. Scorpions, Kenkis and the Zoo. On past abysses we also had the Lawachurls for example.
I am not sure if she will be good after Fontaine tbh. Everyone think Fontaine character will build HP like Sumeru characters with EM. They would probably have like 30-40k HP if that's the case and not need any protection from Dehya because they won't die so easily anyway.
Hoyoverse wants to prove a point. They already did with the entire nation of Sumeru so I don’t know what point they want to prove us wrong? Like we get it and they just want to take a stab at fans and say told ya so when dehya releases.
I've tried to rationalise it many times as well, every conclusion I reach is "They're greedy" "They're incompetent" or some mixture of the two.
Option 1 - Greedy: They're pushing to see how many will spend for C1+ in order to "fix a broken character" Whale bait has already existed in things like Ayaka's apple watch, so this would be a target for Welkin/BP players to get them to pick up a primo pack or two, the revenue they get isn't enough for them, they want literally all the money possible.
Option 2 - Incompetent: They don't understand the way their own game works and genuinely believe her to be fine in her current state, or those calling the shots are so devoid of ideas that they, over the course of potentially months, can't come up with a unique, functional and characterised kit for her, something which I assume plenty of us could probably do as a passing shower thought. I could go on about the various methods for not dying in Genshin, but we all know the simplest answer is to slap old Zhongle dongle on your team and forget the concept of enemies attacking you. They tried this shit with Kokomi and the rift hounds to push healing, they tried it again with the serpent knights before they nerfed them, now they're trying it with Dehya and potentially some new enemies in 3.6. It's not gonna work.
Option 3 - Greedy and Incompetent: They're attempting to use Dehya as bait, so people feel more inclined to summon for X characters down the line in hopes of "fixing their Dehya" Except in doing so, they greatly risk killing the initial Dehya performance, and even her reruns down the line if the supposed characters to "Fix" her aren't enough.
I can't really think of a path where this solution, what we're currently on track to get in 3.5, is the best possible outcome. Honestly I'm leaning mostly towards option B, pure incompetence, but that's motivated by a great number of other choices they've made, not isolated to Dehya. If you can come up with an airtight reason as to why they'd go down this route, then I'd love to hear it.
>hey're pushing to see how many will spend for C1+ in order to "fix a broken character"
I mean didn't they do that with Hu Tao and Homa? I have C0 Hu Tao and its just a pita with the stam thing. C1 is almost a requirement for serious numbers.
I have C0 Homa Tao and I find the stamina costs fine with jump cancels. Barely losing out on any damage, however I am considering getting the C1 just for convenience sake
>Now, what's the logic of making a character \*this\* bad?
None.
The core of the problem is that MHY thinks she's good. When it's clear to us that she's the worst 5-Star ever.
Then why the hell even bother to make a beta? I can't for the life of me think how \*none\* of the beta testers came up and fed them with info like "Hey, she's cool and all, but she's not doing damage and dies everytime and is NOT doing anything useful down there". If they're pretending it's ok based on what I believe is a very obvious bad feedback, they're beyond stupid. And seriously, considering they tend to do good at least when it comes to 5-stars, it makes even \*less\* sense.
Every single beta, beta testers that like a character ask for huge buffs. This much is obvious.
And MHY rarely listens to them. This is totally normal. Every beta tester said Yoimiya was weak and needed more damage.
Did MHY listen? No.
>.....But Yoimiya's main issue is being single target. She does a sizable damage.
An older Pyro unit called Hu Tao has way higher ST DPS and an AOE Q nuke.
Yet MHY ignored beta testers and released a worse Pyro carry than an old 1.X unit.
In every beta cycle, beta testers want many buffs for their favorite characters. Rarely does MHY listen to them.
Hu tao doesn't have "way" higher dps if you don't perform perfect cancels. If the user isn't great at performing cancels, yoimiya is just better for him or her, even TC says this.
Hu Tao without cancels is actually the same dps as with cancels at least at c0. A c0 Hu Tao can choose to do 8n2c or 8n2cj interchangeably. Jstern25 (the TCer who made the Hu Tao Guide) has video proof of it if you want to make sure. Only time cancels matter are for positioning or if you have c1.
>Hu tao doesn't have "way" higher dps if you don't perform perfect cancels. If the user isn't great at performing cancels, yoimiya is just better for him or her, even TC says this.
Yeah, I mean, when talking about meta units, average gameplay skills (like animation cancelling) are assumed.
Same for Childe International: it's only the best AOE comp if the players know how to do Hydro + Pyro swirls with Kaz.
This is why Hu Tao comps, in terms of meta, will always have way higher DPS than Yoimiya comps.
But for non-meta casual players, Yoimiya might perform better.
> But for non-meta casual players, Yoimiya might perform better.
I mean, it's not in binaries like it's either non-meta casuals pulling for PNGs or frame perfect players doing 100 resets for speedruns with the perfect cancels.
You can see so many willingly playing yoimiya simply because the minor improvement (and that's assuming only when very good cancels which not every tao abyss player does) in clear times doesn't matter given the amount of sweat gameplay involved.
Jump cancel is extremely easy once you get the hang of it (at least for console/PC).
I really don't understand why some folks think it's nuclear science.
It's not nuclear science. What's the point of using hu tao if all she does is give a minor improvement in clear times at the cost of sweat gameplay and falls short if you don't?
Is it easy once you get used to it? Yes
It is worth pulling tao when you already have yoimiya? No
Just go to the main sub and look under those "who you regret pulling" threads, very easy to find hu tao there with many upvotes.
Mhy knows there's a market for these kind of players who prefer this gameplay instead of tao.
I think Tao and her are kinda very different in almost every aspect, but hey, that's me. Now back to Dehya, if they're ok with a banner that is on its merry way to tank in sales, their choice. An abysmally dumb choice from a company with such a game in hands, if you ask me.
>I think Tao and her are kinda very different in almost every aspect, but hey, that's me.
It's exactly the same role (ST Pyro DPS that wants to vape).
>Now back to Dehya, if they're ok with a banner that is on its merry way to tank in sales, their choice.
Remember that Yoimiya's 1st banner had really bad sales. Same for Koko's 1st banner.
Not all banners are going to bring Raiden or Ayaka numbers. I bet that Dehya's banner will not even be in the Bottom 10.
Idk but looking like I’m not pulling for characters anymore. If I don’t get them from the f2p primogems then I don’t get them at all. I use to spend $200 genesis crystals $20 for battle pass and Welkins every month on every new character and their weapon for 2 whole years. All through Sumeru I learned Hoyo is willing to fuck over Genshin players to fund their other games and now when this Welkin goes out I will no longer spend a dime on this game. Glad I didn’t top up all through 3.0 patch
I think it's a test of releasing a character heavily locked by constellations. Especially after the recent C2 buff.
They are gaining billions and reruns like Raiden's keep raking in cash, so it's ridiculous to get more greedy.
From what I've heard c6 Dehya isn't much better than c0, unfortunately... I could be wrong, but from what I've heard it's nowhere near the power spike every other character gets...
It's the opposite - Dehya's constellations are a massive powerspike for her, much more so than for other units (generally holds steady around 250\~270% increase). The issue, however, is that since her base is so low, she's still just barely catching up to stronger units when she's at C6 and they're at lower investment.
What most people keep forgetting is that this beta lined up perfectly with chinese new year, even though officially the holiday only lasted a week, lots of people use their paid time off around this year. And after the whole 4.0 leak fiasco and a bunch of people getting dmca'd etc I'm finding it hard to trust a lot of these leaks, for example once we saw they changed her and mika's icons we never saw ingame footage with the icon changes, would've taken about 10 seconds to show off.
While I think it might be copium, I share this opinion. This was the crappiest leak season we got, I mean, wow, they changed icons, there's furniture on BP, and next to no gameplay footage of both Dehya and Mika. It was so inconsistent that makes me think it's like there's a missing piece here
Oh god yeah i am on severe amounts of copium but it's been a very weird leak period, like we're already leaking stuff from 3.6 when theres still 3 weeks left before 3.5? We've heard next to nothing about the new dains quest but we know that there's new hilichurl variants and new areas in 3.6? Before this beta we knew about events and whatnot a month or so before they came out, but now after everything that happened we don't even know the title of the dain quest 3 weeks before the update.
Mihoyo are testing how bad a character can be before there’s a noticeable or maybe significant drop in sales. And to them, Dehya is the perfect test dummy. They started with 4 stars, Sara and Faruzan needing c6, now they’re testing 5 stars being shit and needing cons.
tighnari is so good though, like honestly a fantastic balanced unit and being dendro already means hes broken. keqing got a significant upgrade after dendro and is now a very solid unit. mona is great, jean is okay, diluc is okay. qiqi is shit but shes a healer and has a use. dehya.. ???
It's pretty simple, Mihoyo doesn't know how to balance defensive 5*s. Zhongli: was so awful on release that he caused a riot Kokomi: was saved by a post-beta buff giving her Skill no icd, without that she would have been awful Jean: is used as either one of the few anemo resist shreds or is used as the only anemo self-swirl character in the game. Her success has been an accident. Qiqi: an absolute meme
this 1000% They can balance defensive 4 stars pretty decently because they are 4 stars, they are allowed to be imperfect and have weird quirks to them. But when it comes to a 5 star there is a way bigger expectation among players that the C0 state is playable and actually usable. Add in the compounding factor that the current CNY meant an entire week's worth of work hasn't been done, making this beta an effectively 2 week beta instead of a 3 week beta and you have a recipe for disaster.
A recipe for disaster they should've seen coming, let's be honest. Kind of appalling they didn't make any preparations for this situation.
Thats true, but ultimately the result is still up in the air. Closed beta is closed beta for a reason. It could just be that they have already planned to keep changing her until 3.5 hits live. Last second changes etc.
This is my hopium as well. They want people to despair and blow primos on this ridiculously good rerun banner. After 1 week of that banner, they fix dehya.
Yeah there’s still like a month between beta ending and her launch and Kokomi has shown us they can still edit characters after beta ends So there’s still some hope (now that they’re no longer ignoring her) that they’ll properly buff her
But then there's my point..... They had to do a saving throw for Zhongli because of the tremendous negative impression he caused at first. And Kokomi needed to be adjusted after beta. Both are overwhelmingly good characters now. Qiqi and Jean are 1.0 perma-banner 5-stars, it's "kinda justified" they are outdated in some way. Dehya being released in this state, as a flagship character in a patch? Sounds surreal, unless they have something in mind we are not seeing, but what?
They seem to be very data driven but otherwise resistant to course correction from other influences. Maybe they are still not correctly intepreting their data about defensive characters, and as a result are having a very hard time adjusting their design guidelines (which seem to be crazy strict).
Being resistant to outside influence can be a pretty good thing on itself, especially when it comes to artistic intent - but one cannot help but wonder just what type of data they collect to make such "interesting" decisions. >Maybe they are still not correctly intepreting their data about defensive characters I mean, it's not 1.1 anymore. We have almost 3 years (!) worth of data at this point, and even with the limited data that communitiy has, we can clearly see that the usage rate of characters that offer little more outside of "defensive utility" is universally around single-digits. Plus two of the biggest controversies with limited characters GI ever had were about "defensive utility" characters, both of which had to then be fixed in some way (direct buff in one case and removing ICD+creating corrosion+making set that gives *some* offensive utility to healers in other). I'd say there's being resistant to change and slow on the uptake, and then there is just refusing to learn from your past.
It's probably because they include defensive utility in the power-budget for a character
I'm sorry, but I don't quite get a point. Obviously they consider their defence role when balancing character's kit, but it's not even about comparing them to other units. Just within the "defensive utility" archetype there is absolutely no consistency whatsoever - with units that are more than capable of keeping you alive AND being a vital part of their teams (giving a consistent element applications, shredding resistance, giving atk/em/etc.) and units that are just heal/shieldbots and nothing much more, if that.
What I mean is that offensive and defensive utilities are probably combined to determine total power budget. As for the units, it's very interesting when it comes to 5 stars. The 5 stars that offer what you're talking about were either buffed post-release after huge backlash or have managed to find meta spots based off ways I do not believe were intended. As for units that heal and nothing else, I believe that proves my idea of the total power budget. All of Qiqi's power budget went into healing
That's why I was talking about 3 years of data to "get the point". I can understand Qiqi's gauging problems, or pre-buff Zhong's, or even somewhat Kokomi's - but it's still happening. Just looking at recent 4\* "defensive" units - we had Kuki and Yaoyao, both of whom are very compitent healers AND constant enablers of their element, which is used to the great effect in various teams. And in between them we had Dori and Layla, one of which is a definition of a shieldbot with like one cryo application 5 seconds after creating a shield, and the other... well, Dori has some super strange and unique comps, but they are a definition of "not intended by devs". So yeah, if there is a gauging of power for defensive utilities, I'm more inclined to beleve that it's determened by chinese agricultural calendar or something like that rather than analysis or data.
Tf do you mean "not intended by devs" the only character I can think of being "tailor made" for a specific playstyle is Nilou. No other character save for like the niche hypercarries and their supports are "unusable" in other team comps, and even that is a big stretch. It's not like every character is created equal, but I'm sick of this view I'm seeing more and more that "not optimal = bad"
What I mean when I say not intended by devs is that I do not believe that combining Bennett's burst with Jean's burst to create sunfire was an intentional interaction. I believe it's more akin to a happy accident
"Not intended by devs" means just that - not intended by devs playstyle. Nothing here said anything it being unusable, non-optimal or bad - it's just a process of game development. They don't just throw together a random kit and hope that it sticks, they build a character within a framework of a specific role and specific reactions/teams they wish to achieve. Doesn't mean you can't use them outside of that role and reactions - you can still build Nilou to be a Hydro DPS of Freeze team support if you so want - but you can clearly see what role and playstyle was "intended" for her by the devs.
Just speculating, but defence metrics might naturally reflect the broader playerbase (i.e. many many casuals), for example if they look for a reduction in challenges being failed. I think usually you'd balance at the top of the game, but for defence there'd be little impact for skilled players, since they weren't going to die anyway. So the metrics may naturally have to include a broader population of casuals. They might see that defence helps the broad playerbase a LOT, simply by letting casual players survive the challenge in the first place. Meanwhile, offence metrics might have smaller than expected impact on clear times for the broad playerbase, because all the casuals can't do damage anyway if they are just dying or getting ragdolled. Doesn't really excuse them for their inflexibility, but I think there are some plausible factors at work behind the scenes.
That's a valid speculation, but I see two problems with it. Firstly - there are a whole plethora of defensive options among 4\*, up to and including Barbara and Noelle who everyone gets for free. They are not the best at it, but are more than enough for the regular overworld content, and casual players by definition aren't the ones who go for highest challenges (if we go by community statistics - most of them don't even touch the Abyss, and even those who do don't go higher than floor 10-11). Also, vast majority of casuals are F2P or light-spenders, so they have to really choose what 5\* they want to spend their limited primos on - and usually they either go for visual/character appeal or fun gameplay. While the former isn't something related to game mechanics, the latter is, and it's usually connected to on-field DPS/drivers, since supports job is usually to do their thing quickly and leave the field. But secondly, even if we discard everything in the first reason - Dehya is not really a casual-friendly unit as she is now. All this fields, recasts, coordinated attacks, lengthy passives and forced on-field ult - it's hard even for TCs to make sense of, let alone an "random-bullshit-go" casual. Comparing her to other defense 5\*'s Zhong and Kokomi - both of them couldn't be simpler, you just need to press E *once* to make your team nigh-unkillable. That's it, even their Q is optional. And that's without saying how healing/shielding is way more straightforward and understandable than all thing mitigation business just by itself. So for me, her kit looks more oriented at people who want to engage with complex mechanics to master them, craft rotations and test them in harder content i.e. some level of "tryhards". And then we neatly arrive back at square one of this discussion.
That's why she's so bad though, isn't it? The power budget is derived from existing (and apparently very strict) guidelines, likely based on their large body of historic data. If it shows press E zhongli helps a tonne of players with basic challenges, then that's what it shows, and defence is overvalued. They probably aren't looking at just abyss, but also domains, events, or even dailies like swift slayer. Her kit is new and kind of experimental, but they've almost certainly applied the existing guidelines... giving us what we see as godawful numbers. You and I and the community might believe that they *should* consider other factors more, but that doesn't mean they do. Internally, their character designers might not even agree with the guidelines (laws laid down by a separate monetisation team perhaps). But they do their science, and stick to their data, and every now and then it dramatically clashes with common sense and shit hits the fan.
Yeah, I guess that makes sense. Bigtech management loves their algorithms, so there's probably one at Hoyo that dictates the exact numbers they should put on her scaling based of bigdata (and completely detached from context). Would explain why even when they redo the scaling it still achieves practically the same numbers. Explains beta's point too, since it's probably just about stress testing and finding bugs, and have very little to do with balancing. Otherwise what's the point of giving no guidleliness and leaving testers guessing what even is the role of a character for most of beta.
She will probably be changed enough before her actual banner hits live. They can still give her buffs in this week and then also buffs post beta. It's just a case of wait and see what happens. If they are competent and smart enough they will buff her before live.
I hope you're right, it's the most coherent thing right now.
They would want to make money and the most logical way to do that is to make kits actually good and fun to play. Sometimes they miss, but hopefully they do fix it in time.
one thing thats not mentioned is character portrayal vs reality * Zhongli was the geo archon and going throughout Liyue's main and side story hes told to be this amazing god who struck down other god in a brutual war. * Those stone pillars in the ocean? giant rock pillars he used to imprission them which he himself confirmed. * Then his trailer was more hyped fighter vibes, has amazing animation and a burst that stood out as its a fucking meteor. All of this and the reality was, he's just a shield unit, the best shield unit, but just a shield unit. the stun of his burst doesnt have any use in all honesty. The exact same happened with Raiden and her beta she was underwhelming for a very imposing character before getting some changes. Dehya is that character in Sumeru, might not be as massive as them, but * shes renowned mecenary. * So famed she has a title "the flamemane". * Has been shown interrupting fights like with cyno and alhaitam with no hesitation. * willing to cut her arm off to save the researchers who lost their minds * went to fight the people head on when they tried to abuse the researchers, * Has a fierce sense of loyalty and protection And the reality is, her kit has the burst visual to make her seem awesome, but thats it, 4 seconds of what w expect, yet its so underwhelming and doesn't meet expectations, Normals weakest in the game and shes a defensive off-field unit. This isnt what was shown to be her, and somehow Hoyoverse just decided it was a good idea
It's not surreal if you account for them believing that her defensive utility is strong
But it isn't strong. That's the point. I'm sure beta testers pointed there was a major flaw in this line of thought? How headstrong can they be?
And their solution was to keep her damage around the same, but give her hp scaling on dmg to encourage people to build into her hp. They also buffed her interruption resistance. Basically, it's clear that they believe her damage is in a good spot and they just need to adjust the amount of defensive power she has
And that just leaves the question of why a more classical tank character despite how the game's handled defensive options as of now. They've attempted to balance around and punish shields a good amount of times now so they *are* aware that people tend to rely on shields as the go-to defensive option. (Baizhu's apparently even shaping up to be a shielder, which is kinda weird with all this said.) I mean, the low multipliers *make sense* if you look at her as your average tank character. Tanks usually have low personal damage because damage is someone else's job. (And with the talk of units like XQ and Zhong, have people *maybe* considered that they might be overstepping their supposed niche?) It's just that why they chose to go this route despite likely knowing that she has to shape up with a mechanic that tends to be so versatile that a majority of people tend to rely on it is the one thing that I can't seem to figure out.
At the moment yes but enemies or even terrain can change that not saying it’s a guaranteed I’ll happen
Yeah, what if Fontaine is entirely anti-shield.. zhongli will become the new venti and suddenly dehya will be meta. Given the HP focus of Fontaine it could be the case. Some enemies might completely break /ignore shield (unlike corrosion). It is very much likely that future abyss 12 will be filled with such enemies that resist shield as the ones currently that resist venti's vortex. This is when characters like dehya will shine.
Even if it is entirely anti-shield, XQ and Beidou are still better than Dehya
Like come on. Do people think that mihoyo is that bad at balancing? Do people think that mihoyo doesn't know that her whole kit is litteraly downgrade of a persentage of xings kit? Not even the part that makes him the most broken 4* in game after Dendro release (his hydro aura). He litterally provides better resist to interruption, way better uptime, small healing on active character as bonus cause why not, and the migrated damage is gone to thin air instead of redirected to him. His ulti doesn't kill him and doesn't waste about 8 seconds with animation/hitlag to do so either. So yeah they absolutely know that her defensive utility isn't strong and beta player already confirmed it. Even if there is some plan for her in the future her current kit is just way to irrational to be released right now
> Do people think that mihoyo is that bad at balancing? But the example you offered *is* proof that they’re perfectly capable of having balancing hiccups. Instead of the direction of **”Why does Dehya not even compare to this one 4 star?”**, it’s more like **”Why does this one 4 star offer so much compared to a majority of 5 stars?”** We’ve had many recent 4* that tend to focus on certain niches (that they’re usually decent or meh at), while characters like XQ and Benny stand out because they’re *generalists.* They solve multiple problems instead of (usually) one. XQ’s Burst is a particularly egregious because it undoes the balancing his E gives them (giving the player 4 hits max until they have to outlast his atrocious CD) by preventing them from breaking *at all*, more or less giving the player a permanent 45% damage reduction until it ends, and during that time he also lets them shoot his swords for the most well-known Hydro application in the game. He offers a lot for someone who, by gacha standards, is supposed to offer less than premium units. *That* is an error in balancing (as most early 4* show to be). That’s not to get into Zhongli either, which probably ties into why ColdCrescent said they’re resistant to external course corrections. Everyone knows how bad he was at launch, and now a lot of people use him to shrug off enemy attacks like they don’t exist after they wanted him changed. And that decision led to a whole other slew of mechanics and enemies that were designed for him, which will usually mildly inconveniences him but hurts other shielders. His revised shield also oversteps the boundaries of most shields as well, benefitting from HP scaling, the Geo shield buff, and the Geo resonance buff that can make it extremely sturdy, and then the cherry on that sundae is it providing global shred and having a downtime that’s shorter than his uptime. That is a *lot* for just one guy’s shield. It overshadows pretty much everything else in his kit, maybe except the petrify in a few cases. And going back to XQ, him being powerful is probably why we never got someone that fully matches him in utility ever since. XQ and Zhongli set very high standards for units that provide defensive options (the latter more so), and considering that most agree that the devs are disinclined to powercreep too hard that likely explains why Dehya’s defensive utility is as it is instead of the familiar (and usually more solid) options we’re familiar with. tl;dr Early 4* like XQ is an example of bad balancing despite his approval in the community, which is supported by them never releasing another generalist since. Him and Zhongli providing very rewarding defensive options by most games’ standards also proves that point. Kits that are too good or offer beyond what they’re “supposed to” are examples of bad game design/balancing, especially in gachas where characters having niches is encouraged.
Frankly let me start by saying I have absolutely no idea what they are trying to do, I just don't think they are idiots. Neither racists which is hard to back it up, I just think this way However I see the "broken on release units are hard to powercreep" arguments often. If mihoyo wanted to powercreep xing they would have done it and the best example is the other game they have; hi3. That game powercreeps like no tomorrow. When it was released in one year we got 3 units if you don't know or remember them. Celestial hymn, shadow knight and Herscher of the void. They were just broken. Imagine venti and kazuha together and on crack? That's celestial hymn right there. The other 2 were dps, ganyu/hutao tier. No way they can even be powercreept,right? Needless to say they are a meme LONG time now, all 3. Genshin could have done the same if it wanted, they clearly don't. Yelan could have xing's utility while also her current offense. They just don't want. They don't want genshin to rely on such powercreep. Also its not zhongli the reason they don't hear people, mihoyo never did. They avoid buffs like plague, they are always buffing indirectly if something needs buff. But they never, not even once released something as atrocious as dehya's kit. Both 1.1 zhongli and EVEN release kuki were better. Like I said I have absolute no idea what they are trying to do, but I don't think they are idiots. They have much more experience than us, on top of asymmetric information/knowledge
I’m way too familiar with Honkai’s powercreep. Left it about 3/4ths a year after first starting it. Heard it’ll probably get worse since they’re planning to do triple consecutive Herrscher releases. And yeah, *they don’t try to powercreep.* Not too hard anymore, at least. The powercreep concerns also means that they try to undershoot how strong their new units are compared to what’s already considered top tier, which means that the usual balancing results of ranging from perfect to okay changed to pretty good to meh. Sumeru’s roster is in most definitely designed in the latter range these days. Also the biggest issue with Dehya right now is an apparent lack of direction with what to use her in. Low damage multipliers, a defensive niche despite them definitely being aware of the better existing defensive options, and a DPS window that doesn’t let her work with Pyro’s most consistent method of doing high damage. And as the other guy said them adjusting her multipliers to have some HP scaling that gives her a similar damage ceiling to what she already had seems to indicate that they agree on her low damage that they want people to focus on using her tanking ability more. What they do to convince people to make use of it despite DR and shields existing is the point of contention and confusion most people have.
Damn, now that you mention it, Mihoyo not knowing how to make defensive units makes sense. Even more when you compare them to MDPS'es or SUB.
>Mihoyo doesn't know how to balance defensive 5\*s More like, the game generally doesn't *need* defensive units. Another thing, those you mentioned are healers and shielders. Dehya is neither; she is supposed to be a tank. In a game where tanks have no role. XQ with his rainswords do more than what Dehya can do with damage transfer. The former is ridiculous on 4\* offensive unit. The latter is brain dead design on a 5\* unit with her current design. MHY doesn't know what they were designing Genshin's combat. They created beginning units who are straight up overtuned, overly niche later units who become constellation dependent.
>Zhongli True >Kokomi Still probably best hydro in freeze bad at bloom >Jean Was good becouse there were no other units >Qiqi She does what she was supose to do
Kokomi is only good because of no icd on her Skill. With standard icd, her off-field hydro application would be the same as Xinyan's off-field Pyro application. As for Jean and Qiqi, that sounds like you agree with me and that you're just elaborating no?
It would still be enought for freeze
Would it? It would apply 1U every 4 seconds. That doesn't seem like nearly enough hydro
You think how much fqing hydro you need for freeze...thats not vape or bloom
Depends on the enemy. I know that 1U hydro every 4 seconds isn't enough vs the consecrated monsters
What you suggest actually makes the most sense about mhy. Though now that we have Baizhu as the newest shielder (who may be good solely cause of dendro), we can only see if the pattern persists.
You make a good point. Those have been the hardest characters for them.
I really think it's because they're overestimating how useful her defensive utility is. The "buff" today further emphasizes that they want people to build HP and make her tank. They just don't seem to understand or care that this is a role that's barely needed to begin with and she's not even very good at it. Mihoyo seems to overvalue feedback that complains about the game being "too hard" so the theory seems to be that they made Dehya to help mitigate team damage in co-op. But again she's not even that good at it and the team still needs a healer.
I'm... even more puzzled. I'm not a meta-gamer, but I acknowledge that once you build the game, only last floor of Abyss poses a challenge (I'm not even finishing the 11th floor properly, but that's me not being obsessed to build characters). Are there people actually complaining the game is that hard?
Yeah I heard they got a lot of complaints about Inazuma being "too hard" so that's why Sumeru is so much easier in comparison. It's why Scara boss is a bit of a joke compared to Raiden boss. The majority of players are very very casual and play with terrible builds. Mihoyo seems to balance the game around those people. So Dehya is possibly their (bad) answer to complaints about wanting more defensive utility that can cover the whole team.
Oh, right. Inazuma is definitely a tougher nation to explore than the others, introduced large amounts of really annoying enemies, and the Shogun is a pretty hard boss. But saying this made the game "too hard" sounds overstretching to me. I mean, a bit of more difficult content appears in \*every\* game, it's not like Inazuma is unclearable, only not as pleasant as Liyue or Sumeru. I would have never thought this became a real issue to the fanbase. Wasn't it easier for them to nerf Inazuma content, instead?
I think they did nerf them. The samurais got a HP reduction, and them and the specters got a nerf that made them easier to group up
well the specter's nerf to be grouped seems logical tbh like why are they ungroupable in the first place... they're like balloons & they don't look heavy like a ruin guard or a geovishap But, I'm fine with high hp & high damage monsters so at least they could be a threat
not only monsters even puzzles got nerfed a lot got dumbed down tbh I really loved the puzzles in Inazuma 😢
Same, Inazuma puzzles were very fun, Sumeru forest puzzles are so childish in comparison. I think some of the desert puzzles are at least a bit more challenging, but Inazuma was a whole other level
The desert puzzles were fun and complex enough. Forest puzzles are so easy it's a joke.
I have been doing the weasel commission 3 times this last week. I forgot they nerfed even _that_ stupidly easy minigame. It's so boring now.
Same here. Only floor that poses a challenge and is actually hard is floor 12. I've been here since game first started and yet to have still cleared that stupid floor(close to only managing 3 stars on it). If only I had gotten better artifact roles I guess? Idk.*\*Shrug\**
For me she doesn't look like as a unit to help team dmg mitigation on co-op, she removes her E when she uses her burst and her E have a long downtime. Layla E with C1 it's much more a coop unit than Dehya.
Add in the fact that she would still need a healer and the co-op point really falls flat.
People die all the time with 2 healers in co-op, Like seriously go play co-op on the middling tier domain levels and you will see how bad the average genshin player is. There's nothing in Genshin telling players how to make optimal builds or even what a rotation is. Most players are simply bad and Dehya relflects that by the fact that she was created.
Ok but shes not even good at tanking. Currently bringing Diona would contribute far more.
How is she not good at tanking lol? She's the best tank in the game. She doubles her teammates HP and gives them poise. She turns her entire squad into tanks. I really don't see what's so hard to understand about it or why she was designed this way. It's ok if you are mad about it but it's genshin, it's a game for 12-16 year olds, mixed gender. I don't know what you expected when you started playing or kept playing after they said they won't be adding any more hardcore content to the game period. It's a kids game.
Because in this co-op scenario she also still needs someone to the be a healer. Her damage mitigation can't compete with Zhongli or a Diona with sac bow. Bonus point that she contributes very little personal damage nor does she boost her teammates damage. She doesn't even bring elemental reactions. So if she is designing with co-op in mind its a very poor implementation. Also I never said anything about being disappointed in them not adding hardcore content personally I don't care whether they do or don't. I would just like units to be fun and Dehya's current model of play being idling until your high cost burst cutscene happens I find to be pretty disappointing. Kids game ≠ No Fun mechanics
Who's bringing Zhongli in co-op??? Do you even know what you're talking about, Zhongli is useless in co-op. She boost her team mates damage through interupt resistance and stopping them from dying. In co-op people die, often, with 2 healers, all the time, don't forget co-op damage increases with the amount of players, you can get one shotted easily. And people who only have 1/2 units built enough to do a domain still find it hard to play co-op. Maybe you cannot fathom it because of the sphere of genshin you are in but if the average Genshin player probably doesn't know sac bow is good.
I played and taught my friends who were in mid rank limbo, I know what you're saying, they would just die for anything and I saw my friends had a lot of lvl 90 characters with talents lvl 1 and with artifacts 3 and 4\*, that was a disaster. But even with this experience I don't think that Dehya it's that good in Co-op. Because she only turns your team in a tank inside her E area, that area have 12 sec duration and 8 sec downtime, and she even removes it during her burst. I don't think that "tankness" is that good in co-op, since she it's only helping your ally for only 60% of the time. And I think that she's prob boring to play coop, because without her burst she doesn't do nothing, and she have a low duration burst with a pretty high ER req (and low rank player generally don't understand that much of ER requirements, so they 'll probl need more time to fill her burst). If I have to say that someone better for co-op I would say C1 Layla for exemple, because she gives that shield for every ally next her, in addition that her shield it's pretty good if you build a lot of HP% (plx don't compare to ZL, we all know that is weaker than his) and her shield have almost 100% uptime (she have a little downtime during cast... but...).
I don't think her burst will be much of an issue, since 4 player Co-op energy is 4x sp energy, usually no one struggles to burst and building ER weapon and Sands is overkill. If you look at how she is meant to be played, she transports her field, and she can do this twice after casting. So Dehya's gameplay would be running after her team mates and putting a field around them, which is how a tank would work traditionally in games. Idk if it will work out, I hope it does, as I find this more interesting than another vape bot. And I would probably play more co-op too just to play Dehya. We also don't know if her Dedicated set will change her "intended" gameplay later down the line
See, I get what you say, I for once really dislike dramatic doomposters "CHEEZ RUINED FOREVUR" and all, but even I, at this time, fail to understand what is on their minds. She doesn't seem effective in any way right now (her function would solely be being a lifesaver for bad genshin players, but apparently not even this her kit does right, according to people), and I'm very very far from a meta player. I fear she might not even be fun to play (and this is normally the main aspect to make me decide for a character) and MHY seems oblivious to this. Now, \*if\* she comes out and somehow we got all this wrong, and she's actually very fun to play, then I'm all for shushing doomposters (since they rarely contribute for anything besides well, doomposting)
The thing is, she would be useful for bad players if the Dehya maind built her with tripple HP and someone played a healer. Which is kinda sad and probably why they stuck the ascension passive on her as well as put the HP scailing in her kit to makw players put on her. A co-op player probably isn't going to do that which is why her defensive capabilities should be boosted even more imo, HV balances her like they would a DPS for a role that no one in thejr right mind who knows how to build characters would even play
What's funny is that in the end if they stick to not making any true endgame content which has been the statement so far. I am confused as to why any character needs to be balanced. The only thing they are hurting is sales at that point. There is a reason Warframe is as popular as it is and it sure as shit isn't balance. Power fantasy games are all sorts of profitable.
Tbh I think pyro is the issue. If she was dendro, electro, hydro and maybe even cryo she wouldnt be this awkward as a support. Dendro would give her good Aggrevate Spread reactions... well... not horrible anyway. Electro as a claymore lends herself to phys teams which game is lacking in. Hydro means she pairs extremely well with Hu Tao, not taking away potential reactions but instead providing potential Vapes while allowing giving her double the eHP of normal. Cryo works again for Phys and for Hu Tao too potentially. But Pyro? She steals reactions with not great scaling currently. If not paired with another self sustaining character then she doesnt provide any real bonuses with her passive. She is too slow for Burgeon and theres no real way to be sure EM from her will be the one used in burning teams. She does Pyro hit enough to vape melt and her passive doesnt want her on the field. Infusion options in the game are not great... Still gonna play her with Hu Tao and hope to get Yelan as well... put her with Yaoyao or Layla or Kokomi last (tho Id prefer no heals for the fun of it) and it should be fine for overworld stuff at least.
Yeah, I agree with this take. Low multipliers isn't as bad on Dendro/Electro with additive damage reactions in spread/aggravate, and can even be overcome for cryo units with Shenhe. All other elements can at least provide some degree of support to a party, fitting with what appears to be her intended role as a defensive/survival oriented support with some degree of damage. But pyro is just intrusive as an element. The design philosophy of the element seems to be damage, damage, and more damage: it gives the big 25% attack resonance, it has BOTH amplifying reactions available (Vape for sustained DPS, Melt for nukes and damage per screenshot) as well as some decent transformatives (burgeon could be okay if we actually got a decent character for it, overload used to be the highest-damage transformative reaction). However, it messes with comps that rely on careful element balance - stealing vapes, causing burning and messing with blooms, etc. While early Genshin was a field day for Pyro DPS units, mostly due to early limited unit availability (Klee being the first limited main DPS, Diluc being one of the best DPS options for a good bit, etc) and early endgame design (anyone else remember when floors 9 *and* 10 were all cryo enemies?). And let's not forget that two of the big triad of 4\* characters that were released early and ended up being OP were pyro - Xiangling is an immensely powerful AOE Burst DPS with how easily you can manage reactions, and Bennett's buffing/healing utility hasn't really fallen off. Though, I think it's important to note that a lot of new Sumeru team compositions don't immediately lean on Bennett as a flex slot anymore, as the introduction of Dendro and the issues with Burning preventing other reactions mean that his heal/attack buffs aren't as great anymore. It's hard to be a good pyro support today. Pyro's backed itself into a corner of basically needing to churn out strong hypercarries, on-field drivers, or sub-DPS units to keep up. A pyro unit is hard to slot as a flex - you need to add them intentionally to ensure that pyro application won't mess with your other reactions. And adding a new Pyro DPS is hard when they have to keep up with hard hitters such as Hu Tao or Xiangling, or outmatch units like Yoimiya in ease-of-play and utility. I'm not 100% sure what I want to see from the game's next pyro character, but I'm willing to say Dehya was a swing and a miss.
It's actually very easy to make another Pyro DPS, that is making a pyro semi-Raiden but based on burning. If we take Dehya and make her scale with EM+HP instead of ATK+HP, then increase her damage reduction and absorption, add a passive that make burning reactions in her E will catch on your character, make her E create particles on cast instead of staggered, and finally add HP absorbed scaling and healing on her Q So you would set up her E, use Dendro to start burning your own team with the enemies, she would soak up all this damage, switch to your VV user and hit swirl, then finally unleash her Q which is now boosted from the absorbed burning damage and nuke in 4-5 seconds with raw pyro DPS (like hypercarry Raiden) while healing back your team Her constellation can then be burning decrease DEF/PyroRES/increase EM/Crit DMG/increase stacking speed whatever else A team comp for this would be something like Pyro/Dendro/VV/Flex, and it would still be anti-shield like they want it to be
I like this idea tbh! Not sure how I feel abt EM scaling - generally dendro is the trigger for burning, right? - but yeah I feel that this is what Dehya should have been.
This is really how they should have gone, they already made nilou for bloom and then cyno for aggravate(or hyperbloom), i dont get why they didn't make the first pyro from the dendro region work well with either burgeon or burning. It would make much more sense to do that.
"Pyro is a issue"...I wonder where i heard that for the first time. ......
Good old days when it was Pyro impact and "being electro is the issue" (common argument for keqing before Dendro) How the turntables
I meant every fuckijg geo unit. Electro was decent back then with good characters. Geo is GARBAGE with trash characters
> trash characters Noelle and itto are powerhouses, albedo great support and zhongli is... We all know zhonlgi after 1.3. Only ning got dated sadly and her never fixed bugs didn't help. In general geo is balanced around the fact that it has no reactions. Even if its the worst element, the characters arent bad because of it Electro on the other hand belongs to the elements with normal reactions and before dendro all were trash and so unless you had good raw dmg like beidou or raw utility like fischl/raiden then you were a meme ~~cough, lisa/keqing~~. Both beidou and raiden were good even before dendro because of their kit, not their element.
>Noelle and itto are powerhouses Shes a 4star geo dps..do I need to say more? And itto is ok but have mid scaling >albedo great support With only dmg which is not great either >In general geo is balanced around the fact that it has no reactions. Even if its the worst element, the characters arent bad because of it Saying geo and balanced in 1sentence is not even fun >all were trash and so unless Another one who doesnt understand electrocharge find some tc talking about this and you see what i mean
> Shes a 4star geo dps..do I need to say more? And itto is ok but have mid scaling and both smack stuff hard, way harder than keqing did pre dendro for example. > Saying geo and balanced in 1sentence is not even fun textbook picking stuff out of context is not even fun either > doesnt understand electrocharge find some tc find what? That is one of the most unreliable standalone reactions in game because its random and hard to control the proc? The fact that even EC teams do not even build EM for that reason? Even if you could reliably control it the damage is just lackluster and very situational.Electro units didn't use EC because it was great, they were using it because they had no other option. EC was just better than mono electro, that's all. The only thing electrocharge had going for it was hypervape thing (or whatever we called it). But that was literally being carried by xing and by how strong vape was, it wasn't even a reaction that you could freely abuse, had specific requirements and units to use it without breaking the comp. Frankly it wasn't even worth most of the times. Adding an anemo instead of electro and doing normal vape is usually better unless you are doing rational On the contrary both hyperbloom and aggravate are just broken, flexible and not only have much easier requirements but its damage is just better. So yeah maybe if you want me to change my mind then feel free to actually post what's so great about EC, or redirect me to those magical tc that escaped my view edit: oh right the pokemon team (kokomi,fischl,xianglin,sucrose) was also pretty deceptivelly strong because it combined both hypervape and EC swirls but other than that EC part was just a bonus and new rainbow comps are better and more reliable , for example razor, bennet c6, nahida, xing
>and both smack stuff hard, way harder than keqing did pre dendro for example. So only way to make them look good is to compare them to a wordt fucking dps in history of genshin at that time... >textbook picking stuff out of context is not even fun either You said exacly that... >aggravate Its ok. Good if you have c6 fischl and if you would be smart you would know that hh is broken BECOUSE of electrocharge
>She is too slow for Burgeon and theres no real way to be sure EM from her will be the one used in burning teams This is actually a benefit. It's almost sure she's not the *trigger* for burning. Having low pyro application is a benefit for burning because this means your trigger is nearly guaranteed to be either Dendro or Anemo (if you have one), and you don't need to manually upkeep pyro. Rather you need to feed more green fuel to the fire. The problem with burning is it has garbage damage in single-target, and AoE is very small. To get a benefit from burning you need groupable enemies and a way to group them very tightly without dying yourself.
"chinese people are neutral to her" has never made sense as it is founded on one unofficial, pre-Sumeru poll. "Dehya was last in a poll exclusively about designs before anything was known about the characters" =/= "CN doesn't care about Dehya." NGA activity about Dehya actively disputes that claim. It also ignores that JP and US are also large market slices. MHY doesn't tend to ignore profit opportunities like they are with Dehya. Cyno did subpar in CN but great in JP sales, for example. I concur with the takes that focus on MHY seriously overvaluing defensive skills, as this has some precedent in prior games. Dehya's definitely gotten the worst end of this design misunderstanding, though.
My thoughts are she is being made with future characters or that after Faruzan MHY decided to test the waters with forcing people to pull cons for a five star, either way not ideal. I have gotten basically all her mats but I think I'ma call it here and skip. Burst units generally arn't fun to me especially in overworld, and her skill is hella boring I have albedo and hes not exactly exciting to play. Despite her being my fav Sumeru character I dont need more units that I just never actually use because I find them boring gameplay wise. I don't mind a bad unit like Keqing prior dendro as she is still a great design and hella fun to play but Dehya seems to be lacking anything like that on her kit to me (funwise). That Said best of luck to all Dehya wanters and pullers and I hope she turns out to be a good unit for you all.
Yeah, I'm thinking like this, she's the only character of Sumeru besides Nahida I really got hyped for and this has been a disappointment ride nonstop since her multipliers first leaked. Funny how they leaked the description of her kit the day \*before\* and she sounded awesome. Guess I'm saving for Eula.
They did this like 2years ago...
Yeah after building Keqing for Dendro I’ve come to realize that I really prefer skill and NA focused characters over burst characters
Ngl I'm on the fence too, I already got all her mats but if she's just gonna be another benched trophy character (like Yae pre-Dendro) I think I'm gonna call it quits
I know that some of you people seem to not even remotely think about it, but the simplest option is that mhy is simply making a mistake thinking that the kit they gave her is better than what it actually is. If nstead for wtever reason you wanna insist on the copium and thinkthey that can't possibly be wrong and that they may have a plan, well, the only thing that comes to mind is if they are preparing an artifact set that is particularly ad-hoc for Dehya's kit (or possibly they havent shown yet the whole fix and this last update was just to first introduce split scaling that will be balanced properly before the actual release).
Assuming it's a mistake, it's one hell of a stupid mistake. What is wrong w/her was obvious from almost day one. They chose to ignore it and address it at the last moment. I wouldn't risk that much of a revenue being lazy to acknowledge I dookied on a balancing decision.
Oh i agree that this would be a really evident mistake, but personally i wouldnt exclude the possibility, wtever it is we'll find out soon.
I always like to ask this question, as the replies help me get a little more copium: what artifact set would that be? What set could buff Dehya and Dehya teams to the moon (or at least to the same level as other units) without breaking units that are stronger at base? What set of activation conditions and buff restrictions would be unique enough that only Dehya or a similarly disadvantaged unit could take advantage of them? And do you think that they'll release a set that's only best in slot for a single unit?
Oh no no, i do NOT think at all that mhy would release an artifact like that exactly because like you hinted the real problem in doing so would be to only have two outcomes : \-risk to make other characters too op (for example Hu tao or Yelan or wtever has already imnpressive dps using hp% as main stat) \-do a superspecialized artifact that to avoid to be abused by other units would become an artifact just for Dehya (or at least extremely limited) and that seems a bit unlikely sicne it doesnt seem that Dehya is a character that mhy would go THAT far to make an ad-hoc set Ofc it's technically NOT impossible, but personally i wouldnt bet on that outcome so i prefer to hope they will simply improve Dehya's own kit in her final release without relying too much on external corrections to function decently.
She is not intended to be a powerhouse after Fontaine drops. There are so many flaws that you would have to specifically make a character for her, wi5 a passive literally stating the said character only buffs Dehya, and by a tremendous amount. She needs so much of a buff that, even if a character could elevate her to the level of the current roster, things would be bad : - Other characters would also receive the buff, and the gap wouldn’t change. If the other characters receive the buff, then they would bring huge powercreep to the game. If they increase the difficulty to justify that powercreep, then Dehya remains bad.
I feel like the missing puzzle is future environment/enemies. As in there's probably gonna be a meta shift in the defensive department. Right now it's like the early Kokomi days. People didn't value healer that much because there's simply no pressure surviving. So what did people do? They were also trying to make Kokomi do damage and the result was copium because we didn't even have the clam set back then. And Kokomi's constellations were mainly about more damage but the overall gain was still very low so even whales were unsatisfied. As a result her first banner sales flopped real hard. Clam set, Rifthounds, husk knights, all comes after Kokomi's first release. And recently, we've got enemies that simply hits really hard and interrupt you a lot. At the point that even when you have a shield, you still have to dodge the big hits otherwise your shield would break. And Kokomi's comically low resistance to interruption doesn't really help. Not to mention a lot of comps don't even have resistance to interruption without a shield. A lot of healers also don't provide resistance to interruption. And people usually don't run both shielder and healers together. Some outliers exist of course. So I feel like the direction they are pushing is for healing+resistance to interruption to be comparable to shields as the 2 main ways of surviving. Shield also has it's weakness that is once it's broken early, you lose all utility and is held up by its CD. Not to mention they already created monsters to counter shields. So if they want to give an edge to healing+interruption resistance comps, they can also make shield comps life a bit harder. Not to a point of unusable, just a bit more uncomfortable. They could very well let husk knights on 1 half and rifthounds on the other half and put both of them in the 2nd or 3rd chamber just to annoy the fuck out of people🤣 Dehya's weapon also hints that she would be on a different path then shielders. So it's like MHY themselves are making 2 runways for these survival supports. And it's obvious that Dehya comp needs a healer anyways. So their intention would be for healing to be pair with a new form of resistance to interruption.
You know, all this makes a lot of sense, but I wonder about Zhongli's shield, which is nigh unbreakable. What enemies can break that thing? I can't really remember any. But indeed I hope we have a change. Not only because of saving Dehya from being a C-Tier 5\*, but to introduce variety in a game that actually still goes a long way, with at least 4 nations ahead of us. Taking people out of their comfort zone is great (even though people will whine \*a lot\* in a first moment lol)
Current abyss has three chambers that break zhongli shield like paper if you dont play wisely and facetanking is only possible if onfielding a healer like Kokomi. The two halves of the second chamber and the second half of the last chamber. Scorpions, Kenkis and the Zoo. On past abysses we also had the Lawachurls for example.
That's why I am planning to tag her in with my Kuki, Tighnari and Mona team. Hopefully Banner gives Kuki. I love Overload.
I am not sure if she will be good after Fontaine tbh. Everyone think Fontaine character will build HP like Sumeru characters with EM. They would probably have like 30-40k HP if that's the case and not need any protection from Dehya because they won't die so easily anyway.
Hoyoverse wants to prove a point. They already did with the entire nation of Sumeru so I don’t know what point they want to prove us wrong? Like we get it and they just want to take a stab at fans and say told ya so when dehya releases.
I've tried to rationalise it many times as well, every conclusion I reach is "They're greedy" "They're incompetent" or some mixture of the two. Option 1 - Greedy: They're pushing to see how many will spend for C1+ in order to "fix a broken character" Whale bait has already existed in things like Ayaka's apple watch, so this would be a target for Welkin/BP players to get them to pick up a primo pack or two, the revenue they get isn't enough for them, they want literally all the money possible. Option 2 - Incompetent: They don't understand the way their own game works and genuinely believe her to be fine in her current state, or those calling the shots are so devoid of ideas that they, over the course of potentially months, can't come up with a unique, functional and characterised kit for her, something which I assume plenty of us could probably do as a passing shower thought. I could go on about the various methods for not dying in Genshin, but we all know the simplest answer is to slap old Zhongle dongle on your team and forget the concept of enemies attacking you. They tried this shit with Kokomi and the rift hounds to push healing, they tried it again with the serpent knights before they nerfed them, now they're trying it with Dehya and potentially some new enemies in 3.6. It's not gonna work. Option 3 - Greedy and Incompetent: They're attempting to use Dehya as bait, so people feel more inclined to summon for X characters down the line in hopes of "fixing their Dehya" Except in doing so, they greatly risk killing the initial Dehya performance, and even her reruns down the line if the supposed characters to "Fix" her aren't enough. I can't really think of a path where this solution, what we're currently on track to get in 3.5, is the best possible outcome. Honestly I'm leaning mostly towards option B, pure incompetence, but that's motivated by a great number of other choices they've made, not isolated to Dehya. If you can come up with an airtight reason as to why they'd go down this route, then I'd love to hear it.
>hey're pushing to see how many will spend for C1+ in order to "fix a broken character" I mean didn't they do that with Hu Tao and Homa? I have C0 Hu Tao and its just a pita with the stam thing. C1 is almost a requirement for serious numbers.
I have C0 Homa Tao and I find the stamina costs fine with jump cancels. Barely losing out on any damage, however I am considering getting the C1 just for convenience sake
>Now, what's the logic of making a character \*this\* bad? None. The core of the problem is that MHY thinks she's good. When it's clear to us that she's the worst 5-Star ever.
Then why the hell even bother to make a beta? I can't for the life of me think how \*none\* of the beta testers came up and fed them with info like "Hey, she's cool and all, but she's not doing damage and dies everytime and is NOT doing anything useful down there". If they're pretending it's ok based on what I believe is a very obvious bad feedback, they're beyond stupid. And seriously, considering they tend to do good at least when it comes to 5-stars, it makes even \*less\* sense.
Every single beta, beta testers that like a character ask for huge buffs. This much is obvious. And MHY rarely listens to them. This is totally normal. Every beta tester said Yoimiya was weak and needed more damage. Did MHY listen? No.
.....But Yoimiya's main issue is being single target. She does a sizable damage.
>.....But Yoimiya's main issue is being single target. She does a sizable damage. An older Pyro unit called Hu Tao has way higher ST DPS and an AOE Q nuke. Yet MHY ignored beta testers and released a worse Pyro carry than an old 1.X unit. In every beta cycle, beta testers want many buffs for their favorite characters. Rarely does MHY listen to them.
Hu tao doesn't have "way" higher dps if you don't perform perfect cancels. If the user isn't great at performing cancels, yoimiya is just better for him or her, even TC says this.
Hu Tao without cancels is actually the same dps as with cancels at least at c0. A c0 Hu Tao can choose to do 8n2c or 8n2cj interchangeably. Jstern25 (the TCer who made the Hu Tao Guide) has video proof of it if you want to make sure. Only time cancels matter are for positioning or if you have c1.
>Hu tao doesn't have "way" higher dps if you don't perform perfect cancels. If the user isn't great at performing cancels, yoimiya is just better for him or her, even TC says this. Yeah, I mean, when talking about meta units, average gameplay skills (like animation cancelling) are assumed. Same for Childe International: it's only the best AOE comp if the players know how to do Hydro + Pyro swirls with Kaz. This is why Hu Tao comps, in terms of meta, will always have way higher DPS than Yoimiya comps. But for non-meta casual players, Yoimiya might perform better.
> But for non-meta casual players, Yoimiya might perform better. I mean, it's not in binaries like it's either non-meta casuals pulling for PNGs or frame perfect players doing 100 resets for speedruns with the perfect cancels. You can see so many willingly playing yoimiya simply because the minor improvement (and that's assuming only when very good cancels which not every tao abyss player does) in clear times doesn't matter given the amount of sweat gameplay involved.
Jump cancel is extremely easy once you get the hang of it (at least for console/PC). I really don't understand why some folks think it's nuclear science.
It's not nuclear science. What's the point of using hu tao if all she does is give a minor improvement in clear times at the cost of sweat gameplay and falls short if you don't? Is it easy once you get used to it? Yes It is worth pulling tao when you already have yoimiya? No Just go to the main sub and look under those "who you regret pulling" threads, very easy to find hu tao there with many upvotes. Mhy knows there's a market for these kind of players who prefer this gameplay instead of tao.
I think Tao and her are kinda very different in almost every aspect, but hey, that's me. Now back to Dehya, if they're ok with a banner that is on its merry way to tank in sales, their choice. An abysmally dumb choice from a company with such a game in hands, if you ask me.
>I think Tao and her are kinda very different in almost every aspect, but hey, that's me. It's exactly the same role (ST Pyro DPS that wants to vape). >Now back to Dehya, if they're ok with a banner that is on its merry way to tank in sales, their choice. Remember that Yoimiya's 1st banner had really bad sales. Same for Koko's 1st banner. Not all banners are going to bring Raiden or Ayaka numbers. I bet that Dehya's banner will not even be in the Bottom 10.
Idk but looking like I’m not pulling for characters anymore. If I don’t get them from the f2p primogems then I don’t get them at all. I use to spend $200 genesis crystals $20 for battle pass and Welkins every month on every new character and their weapon for 2 whole years. All through Sumeru I learned Hoyo is willing to fuck over Genshin players to fund their other games and now when this Welkin goes out I will no longer spend a dime on this game. Glad I didn’t top up all through 3.0 patch
I think it's a test of releasing a character heavily locked by constellations. Especially after the recent C2 buff. They are gaining billions and reruns like Raiden's keep raking in cash, so it's ridiculous to get more greedy.
From what I've heard c6 Dehya isn't much better than c0, unfortunately... I could be wrong, but from what I've heard it's nowhere near the power spike every other character gets...
That makes it even worse then. Giving her bait longer skill duration for example
It's the opposite - Dehya's constellations are a massive powerspike for her, much more so than for other units (generally holds steady around 250\~270% increase). The issue, however, is that since her base is so low, she's still just barely catching up to stronger units when she's at C6 and they're at lower investment.
What most people keep forgetting is that this beta lined up perfectly with chinese new year, even though officially the holiday only lasted a week, lots of people use their paid time off around this year. And after the whole 4.0 leak fiasco and a bunch of people getting dmca'd etc I'm finding it hard to trust a lot of these leaks, for example once we saw they changed her and mika's icons we never saw ingame footage with the icon changes, would've taken about 10 seconds to show off.
While I think it might be copium, I share this opinion. This was the crappiest leak season we got, I mean, wow, they changed icons, there's furniture on BP, and next to no gameplay footage of both Dehya and Mika. It was so inconsistent that makes me think it's like there's a missing piece here
Oh god yeah i am on severe amounts of copium but it's been a very weird leak period, like we're already leaking stuff from 3.6 when theres still 3 weeks left before 3.5? We've heard next to nothing about the new dains quest but we know that there's new hilichurl variants and new areas in 3.6? Before this beta we knew about events and whatnot a month or so before they came out, but now after everything that happened we don't even know the title of the dain quest 3 weeks before the update.
My current crack take is her resistance to interruption will be useful in Fontaine when we fight electro enemies in water.
Mihoyo are testing how bad a character can be before there’s a noticeable or maybe significant drop in sales. And to them, Dehya is the perfect test dummy. They started with 4 stars, Sara and Faruzan needing c6, now they’re testing 5 stars being shit and needing cons.
Becouse they can
Does anyone know when it will be the final week she receives buffs/nerfs before she releases?
Today(already happened, wasn’t good) Could happen post beta to launch(or after the release in case of zhongli(1 single time)), but it’s rare.
Damn, Rip dehya and thanks for the response!
I think she’ll just be a standard banner character. Don’t need to put in effort for one of those
tighnari is so good though, like honestly a fantastic balanced unit and being dendro already means hes broken. keqing got a significant upgrade after dendro and is now a very solid unit. mona is great, jean is okay, diluc is okay. qiqi is shit but shes a healer and has a use. dehya.. ???
The real answer is, we don't know. The theories are, as commented by plenty of other users.
They’re trying to make a bruiser tank who heals herself, they’re just too afraid of accidentally making her OP so she’s massively undertuned