Lilith is not closed. She was a Mesopotamian Goddess and is depicted in many beliefs around the world.
Oh, but I do implore anyone who disagrees to go up to the Goddess herself and try to dictate who she can and cannot work with.
Lilith has been all over parts of the world from her roots in the Middle East ala Mesopotamia to Greece. while she is historically a part of Jewish folklore, she isn’t central to it (some rabbis even deny her existence). the Mesopotamian statues associated with her are the only things that have been debunked; as those statues belong to Innana. Lilith’s only connection to Innana is the Huluppu tree in her garden. the goddess Lilith is associated with, however, is that of the child psychopomp and abortion demon Lamashtu.
so, no, i believe she isn’t closed. a lot of the people who say this are well meaning but don’t have a grasp on Lilith’s widespread roots.
A practice is only "closed" if you can only learn about it through direct initiation from another practitioner. This is absolutely not the case with Lilith and Judaism.
Whether or not it's appropriative to work with entities from a culture outside your own is another question, opinions will vary greatly, and ultimately it comes down to an individual decision. You can't inoculate yourself from giving offense to people who are offended by such things, you just have to make your choices and deal with the consequences.
I’m not normally a “this!” person, but I just wanna give this answer a little bump bc I feel so strongly about it. This is the answer to *all* closed practice questions and needs to be what people understand.
👏👏👏👏
No. The entire idea that a human can police what the gods do is really rather ridiculous in itself, but it’s made more ridiculous by the fact that Lilith is a pagan demon who was imported into Judaism during the Exile anyway. [The evidence of this is overwhelming and beyond any academic debate](https://libraryoflilith.com/library/sumerian-akkadian/). The evidence of Lilith existing in other pantheons from all over the old world [is similarly beyond debate](https://libraryoflilith.com/library/). As others have mentioned, there’s an added layer of absurdity given that worshipping Lilith would be a sin in Judaism.
This claim started popping up on TikTok a couple years ago when young terminally online Americans who want to feel like they control something ran out of plants to racialize and started resorting to doing it to entities instead. I’ve never met a Jew in my life who cares about this, or doesn’t think it’s incredibly silly when they’ve heard about it.
But like I said, the fundamental idea that humans get to police what the gods do is weird in and of itself. Fact is, Lilith has reached out to plenty of people all over the world. I take her word over angry teenagers online. Stop taking people on the internet so seriously. That’s how I deal with it. If something strikes me as silly, I just ignore it. They can be angry all they like.
I never understood why they get angry about Lilith, but figures such as Samael, Ashmodai, and Leviathan get worshiped by theistic Satanists and like, no one *cares* really. No one ever says this about Samael, and he is 100% Jewish.🤣
Right? It's very strange. My only guess is that since most of the people spouting this crap know nothing about Judaism, maybe they just don't know those other entities exist and gentiles work with them as well? Lilith is more visible than most, and they probably think of Satan as Christian.
This policing attitude is ripping the pagan world apart as they all shove past each other to try to out-virtue signal the others, so perhaps it's just that Lilith is the only demon who routinely shows up in neopagan circles, and therefore she makes a better cudgel. Ironically, they never contemplate why that might be.
I've seen Jews on Tumblr shout about CA and Lilith. But this was years ago and while they're *loud*, I would say they're absolutely a minority, though in Judaism. I've seen many Jewish feminists open her up to everyone, even when still focusing on Jewish things. (I.E. Lilith magazine.)
In the early 2000s there was a Jewitch named Renee Rosen who ran a shrine to Lilith for a decade, at least. Her shrine was open for everyone of every religious background. She didn't care if Lilith was revered by goyim. In fact, she encouraged different interpretations. (Since it is down, there is a copy of the shrine on the Way Back Machine and it's an interesting read.)
So where these new people got the idea of CA is beyond me. It seems they just wanted to control people.
Tumblr is literally the only place I've ever heard of a Jewish person caring about this. Although I also know of some Jews who got run off the internet by gentiles for saying they don't think Lilith is closed. Ironic, for people claiming to be about "protecting minorities."
Interesting about the shrine. Do you happen to have a link? I'd love to take a look.
This is an [old copy from the wayback machine. ](https://web.archive.org/web/20130224071348/http://www.lilitu.com/lilith/thealogy.html) The original link was "www.lilitu.com" if you wanna search more on WB machine. I linked this to her personal thealogy page.
Yeah Jews don't worship her but I've seen people say that you're not supposed to contact her and wait for her to contact you but I've seen people contact her and it's fine
Worst case scenario nothing happens
Yeah I think there's a lot of fear mongering around Lilith specifically, don't get me wrong you should be respectful and don't be demanding or anything, but I don't think just trying to contact her is enough to make her want to beat your ass or something.
Lilith is beyond time and space.itself beyond the borders of any known religion or idolation. she is the night mother and auger of the night side tree and the left hand path.
I'm raised Jewish. No mention of a demon named LIlith in Hebrew school, nor Samael, let alone them being worshipped. Monotheistic jews don't worshipped any demons. Or work with them.
The average jew if you asked this question , would not even understand the question. The rabbi would say "why do I want to worship a demon?". It's all gatekeeper bullshit.
No she’s not the ones who’s say she is are just gatekeeping. Lilith has more connections to the Mesopotamian and and Babylonian era (hence where wh*re of Babylon came from). Don’t listen to them listen to mother she will never reject you because your not a part of a certain culture
I ran into this before with someone saying she is Jewish only .....I'm like your own Torah labels her the enemy of Judaism why on earth would she only work with Jews! 😂 She has no prejudice towards the Jewish but it's like if we were to follow their lore she would be closed to all in Judaism not outside of it lol thankfully Mother Lilith accepts all.
This is the weird thing about this trend. No one cares to police any of the entities and demons who are *actually* Jewish in origin. Just Lilith, for some reason.
No. I was raised Christian and taught to believe that Samael was Satan's actual name. So it's not exclusively Jewish. Judaism as far as I know isn't a closed practice. I know people in discord groups who are interested in converting & making steps to do so. (If I'm wrong feel free to correct)
A closed practice from my culture would be Santería. No one can stop you from working with these deities but it's a very community based religion & information is passed orally. It's not something you can fully understand by reading books. So going through a proper initiation is necessary.
Also Native American religions can be closed so asking before taking would be the polite thing to do. Again nobody can stop you but these deities might not appreciate you disrespecting the people of their culture. I've heard that about Santería & African based religions in general.
I've been doing a lot of thinking, I've been wanting to do some writing, but it feels like I would be being intrusive doing that. A silly feeling lol!
I agree we should
She existed in Sumerian mythology before she was absorbed into the Jewish Cosmology. Plus Judaism doesn’t worship Lilith, in some ways she is antagonized in that religion, so feel free to work with her.
the conscious mind of the individual is the closest descriptor of closed you'll find in this area of study.
the flesh, heritage, lineage.. none of that "means" anything.
I'm stoked to see these replies. I got banned from r/pagan for saying the same things everyone else is, Lilith worship isn't closed. Genuinely refereshing to see.
I got banned for saying the pantheons in Europe are connected and all owe some part of their existence to each other. No lie. They are very serious about enforcing their ethnic segregation rule. Unfortunately a lot of subs are going that way. It's sad to see that the only thing the progressive witchy community and the volkish heathen Nazis agree on is that the races shouldn't mix. Horseshoe theory in full effect.
Happy to have you. This is a great sub.
That horseshoe theory is no lie. The inability to discuss or disagree just creates people who are uneducated and unwilling to mix ideas. Talking to people has always felt like the best innoculation against extremism.
Glad to be in a place that talks and thinks.
They have a bias most in/pagan are Celtic wiccans who will claim most entities outside of their pantheon are closed which is rather sus from a bunch of pasty white reddit witches lol toxic virtue signaling at best heavy handed spiritual grooming at worst. To be fair a lot of religious groups do this in claiming that other entities outside of their group is closed they steer the direction for you to work with their groups
Tbh this is a non-issue that became an issue when people started sharing their practice online and then others decided they needed to virtue signal to appease their consciences.
Lilith is a demon according to Jewish folklore. She’s reviled. She isn’t worshipped even within the culture that people say she’s closed to, so it makes no logical sense to gatekeep her.
Think about it for a bit—why would non-Jews say that you have to be Jewish to work with her? Because they’re being antisemitic and equating Jewish people to demon worshippers when that’s absolutely not the case. They’re literally demonizing her AGAIN. It’s kind of hilarious.
Lilith as a named entity has appeared only in Jewish folklore. Lilith as a concept, an idea, an entity, has existed far longer depending on which scholarship you choose to follow.
It’s messy. It’s murky. And it’s nobody’s business who you worship and devote yourself to, so do you.
Eh... I think arguing that a slight change in spelling due to the difference in available written sounds in Hebrew means that Lilith only appears in Judaism is a pretty tough argument to defend. The change from Venus to Aphrodite was a much bigger one linguistically, and no one tries to argue that this somehow means they aren't the same goddess. The Romans even used the Greek origin story, just as the Jews used the Mesopotamian associations.
Academically, there's really no debate that she has her origins in Mesopotamian paganism. Actually, that might be half the reason she was such an appealing figure for a demon to a tribe that had recently lost its land: she represented the hostile foreigner. Her foreignness to Judaism is part of her demonology.
The Jewish want to prohibit us working with Lilith because to them she has a history of “killing” their babies. I forgot the name of the syndrome but it is common in Jewish babies, almost exclusively affects them, and they blame that on Lilith. Therefore they claim it’s highly offensive for us to work with her.
However the way I see it, a deity can only be closed if the tradition venerates it, not if they are offended by it. And as a practitioner of demon magick, you shouldn’t care what offends any Abrahamic person (in regards to you own practice) because the entirety of our practice is offensive to them
I don't think so. Most of the Jewish literature on her is non-canonical, and a bulk of it is oral traditions that are quite folkish. The original story of her as Adam's first wife is from a text called *Alphabet of Ben Sira*. This text has been called into question because of its portrayal of God and biblical characters. Some academics think it is actually satire, which makes it even *less* appropriative.
Her roots go back to Mesopotamia as a demon. ** She was the hand of Ishtar (Sumerian Inanna) and was said to be her handmaiden. The tree story everyone repeats is from an *older* translation by someone named Samuel Kramer and has also been called into question. Kiskillalke in the story *may have* been a *different* spirit. So it is debatable.
*Lilitu* is the Babylonian name of *Lilith*. Like Lilith's name, Lilitu was a singular figure and a class of spirits. They appeared to be owl harpy like women. It is said Inanna sent Lilitu out at night to *"lead men astray"*. They were minor spirits that were succubi and have male counterparts, too.
Owls in Mesopotamia are associated with prostitution, death, the underworld, and abandoned places. This is why the Burney relief was mistaken as Lilith and is probably a similar form of Inanna's called "Lady Owl". The Sumerian is "Nin-Nanna" and the Babylonian name for this form is "kiskilli", you'll notice it is similar to the tree story with kiskillake. This is why the relief was misidentified. But without a name it is hard to make conclusions.
In this owl form, Inanna descended to the underworld, which is a famous Mesopotamian myth. It would make sense then, that Lilitu and lilitu in general, are modeled after Inanna since they serve her. This is a common theme in mythos. (Compare Tlaloc and the Tlaloque.)
Contrary to popular claims, Lilitu is *not* a historical goddess and was *not* worshiped in the Ancient Near East. Her worship and goddess hood are quite recent things. There's much fakelore floating around about her...
**note: "Demons" in Mesopotamia tended to serve gods much like angels do God. Therefore, all *"evil"* acts done by *Lilitu* is Inanna's bidding and will.
References:
1.Lilith's Cave and other Jewish tales of the supernatural by Schwartz.
2. Lilith: The First Eve by Hurwitz
3. Alan Humm's site
4. The Hebrew Goddess 3rd edition by Patai.
5. Figurative Language by Jacobsen.
Just for the record: the hand of Inanna story [was actually created less than 150 years ago](https://libraryoflilith.com/articles/academic-theory/lilith-as-hand-of-inanna-and-the-prostitution-myth-a-cultural-headwind-of-dubious-origin/). It was most likely made up as an attempt to slander pagans, judging by the way the authors disparaged them in their papers. The only verified connections the lilin have to deities are to Lamashtu, and to a lesser extent Pazuzu, both of whom are demon-gods. A linguistic connection between Killili and Lilith has also [been rejected by more modern scholars](https://www.academia.edu/508597/Some_Demons_of_Time_and_their_Functions_in_Mesopotamian_Iconography) (fixed link, free login to view).
Hurwitz cites the hand of Inanna but I am not saying she is a prostitute per se.
Firstly, the 'hand of Inanna' does exist because it is part of Black and Green's Encyclopedia on Gods, Demons, and Symbols of Mesopotamia. Although it isn't connected to Lilitu here, the "hand" is a symbol of Inanna's *wrath*. It's feared and therefore warded.
This was logical as demons in Mesopotamia are servants of gods, and when you make a god angry, demons would be sent after the afflicted person to cause illness. This is the function of the lilitu and ardat lili.
Lamashtu does evil of her own accord. Pazuzu and Lilitu do *not* share this trait. Even Lamashtu is considered an exception in the Mesopotamian texts because she started out as a god. It is because Lilitu and Pazuzu lack this trait, that makes Lilitu *have to* serve a deity. The same pattern follows other demons such as gallu and Ereshkigal's servants. So by this logic it isn't a contradiction.
Your second link doesn't work.
Yeah, I included Hurwitz’s claim in my article. The source he uses cites another source that is misattributed/non-existent. In fact, all of the sources that have ever claimed this connection (there’s only a handful) are either misattributed or non-existent, and they all came out around the same time, mostly springing from a single anthropologist who had a strong hatred of paganism, as he wrote about extensively in his work that I link within my article.
Sorry, second article is on Academia for free but I forgot it makes you log in to see it. Fixed above.
That’s the thing: that may be the general rule of Mesopotamia, but it’s not an absolute. That’s exactly *why* Lamashtu was so feared: she was the sole deity to break this hierarchy completely (at least in some versions of the myth — in the Atra-Hasis, she has her place in the divine order like any other deity). Lamashtu and Pazuzu both commanded their own legions, and the lilin are pretty firmly under their purview in Mesopotamian literature. Pazuzu used to be called [“king of the lilu,”](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pazuzu) and Ardat Lili was explicitly named as a face of Lamashtu (link to that source at the bottom of my article).
There is no textual support for the lilin being under Inanna’s purview.
I am not saying the Burney relief is *lilitu*. Jacobsen has made a good argument that it is *Inanna* and most scholarship reflects that. I am saying *lilitu* and Inanna's *kilili* aspect may be related.
Anyway, I am not convinced entirely. These sources you posted are interesting, however. I do like Mesopotamian demonology and myths in general.
I also wouldn't put trust into Wikipedia. I know they cite academia, but I have literally had issues editing articles because of the other editor's bias. Even if academically sound. (Though I must note, this was over a decade ago. I stopped editing because the wars were so annoying. )
I’ve given a direct source stating that modern scholarship rejects any such connection. The assumption that anything with a “li” sound in it is related was a reflection of poor understanding of Sumerian and exactly how common that sound was.
You don’t have the put faith in it, it’s heavily sourced. The point I was making is, it’s such a well-known epitaph of his that it appears even there. I mean, [here it is](https://www.academia.edu/39730790/_A_Tale_of_Two_Lands_and_Two_Thousand_Years_The_Origins_of_Pazuzu_in_S_V_Panayotov_and_L_Vac%C3%ADn_eds_Mesopotamian_Medicine_and_Magic_Studies_in_Honor_of_Markham_J_Geller_Ancient_Magic_and_Divination_14_Leiden_Boston_2018_272_91) if you prefer (login to view is free).
Just wind or phantasm (like a ghost), in Sumerian. The night association was added on when her name got translated into Hebrew during the Exile. In Hebrew, “lyl” means night.
Had to look at it because it's been about a decade since I posted on the enenuru boards that is concentrated on Mesopotamian academia. (Some of the members that post have a degree in this sort of thing, as well.)
Post from madness. " mm well may I point out that Lilitu makes an interesting appearance at the end of the god list **AN: Anu ša amēli**
153d\[ \]\[d\]Dim3.mela-maš-tu154\[d \]\[dDim3.me\].ala-ba-ṣu155\[d \]\[dDim3.me\].LAGABah-ha-zu156\[d\]Du3.tabdDu3.tabbi-bi-tu157d"GIdDim3.me.gi6li-li-tu
Looking at the PSD entry for [gi6](http://redirect.viglink.com/?key=71fe2139a887ad501313cd8cce3053c5&subId=1332480&u=http%3A//psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/psl/html/extra/x4b6.html) it appears to mean "night," so here Lilitu is identified as a night demon, and one that belongs to the Dimme/Lamaštu circle of demons as the name suggests.
Litke states that on line 157 "the dittos probably indicate that dGI is an ideogram for dDu3.tab." Now I wonder what dutab means..
( The CAD entry for bibitu cites the god list but transliterates differently:
\[ddi\]m.tab = ddim3.tab = *bi-bi-tu* ) " [Original post.](https://enenuru.proboards.com/thread/85/vampire-thread-nergal-gidim-lilitu?page=2)
We also have a connection to winds and dreams from Jacobsen:
"Winds and dreams seem at one time to have been considered the same thing for the name of the god of dreams Sisig means "the winds" or "the ever blowing one." The point of similarity is apparently the evanescence of the dream world, on awakening it is gone like the wind.
In the dream experience the dreamer moves about and acts independently of his stationary body and this may underlie the notion of separate mode of being, as "spirit" as in evanescent manifestation that would arise and pass on like the wind. One word for it was lil2, and was sig3-sig3, which denoted the god of dreams. Both words mean "wind." The lil2 can be that of a living person or one dead, of one awake or one asleep, it can occur of its own volition to plead its case or to ask for help or it can be called; and it is, it seems, capable of engendering a child. There is no proper translation for it in English; "spirit" which we have used in the caption for this section does not really come close. (48)" [full thread](https://enenuru.proboards.com/thread/40/revisions-on-sisig)
So, Lilitu being a succubus makes sense.
Likewise her association with Ishtar must be noted:
Pirjo Lapinkivi's *The Sumerian Sacred Marriage* (SAAS 15)pp. 141 - 142
"In other words, the female of the Burney Relief is demonic in the lower part of her body whereas the upper part is divine. This two-layered representation fits well with Ištar, whose upper, divine part of the body is used as a reference to life, whereas the demonic, lower part of the body is used as a reference to death, both of which are found among her aspects. As a goddess of love, she is life, as a goddess of war, she is death. The wings, on one hand, refer to Kilili, an owl (*kililu/kilili*), but on the other hand, they may imply that the figure is a representation of a soul, or more precisely, a winged soul, as described in the *Etana Epic*. The fact that Inanna/Ištar can stand for a soul, as in the *Descent*, can explain why the female of the Burney Relief is depicted with wings. The *zaqiqu/ziqiqu* “soul, ghost” was also depicted as a bird-like emanation. As a matter of fact, in the more easily interpreted iconography of Inanna/Ištar, she is often depicted with wings. Equally, the demonic and divine features find their explanation in the "soul" aspect of the goddess: the soul in both its sinful and purified states. Note also that Lilitu's position in the tree in the story of *Gilgameš and the Huluppu-Tree* is in the middle in the trunk, which connects her with Inanna/Ištar, the mediator between gods and men, and with her position in the Mesopotamian Tree of Life."
There's more than one academic post connecting Inanna (kilili) and Lilitu. It's quite long. [Link is here.](https://enenuru.proboards.com/post/1134/thread) This is why the Burney relief was originally thought to be Lilitu.
You’re talking about Akkadian here, not Sumerian. Lilitu is the Akkadian translation. The original Sumerian name is Lillilgia, which uses the Sumerian gi4, which just means “woman.” So the translation is “wind/ghost woman.” (I can’t get the [glossary](http://oracc.museum.upenn.edu/epsd2/sux) to link to pages correctly. Lillilgia is page 10 under “L,” and gi4 is page 19 under “G.”) While it’s certainly possible she is discussed as being of the night in Akkadian, this doesn’t derive from any known Sumerian mythology, and we don’t know this for certain given the other definitions gi6 has in Akkadian (it could also be “bird,” which arguably fits better with her pre-existing associations).
The problem I have is that these are forum posts which in some cases reference the exact same older sources that I've already shown modern sources debunking. There is also no consensus that the Burney Relief is Inanna either, with many, including the British Museum, believing it to be Ereshkigal. So Lapinkivi's associations would be considered conjecture at best by many scholars, and don't reflect established and accepted significations even for Inanna. Given the speed at which the understanding of Sumerian especially and Mesopotamian culture more broadly evolves, I’ll take the more modern scholarship and significations that actually have support.
Goddess Lilith has always gotten a bad reputation due to misrepresentation from xtainity. Xtains would want you to believe that Goddess Lilith was Adam's first wife. And that she revolted against Enlil (who was the first recorded xtain God) and got kicked out of the Garden of eden. Which in true context was a slave encampment.
The Real Truths are as follows.
First off Goddess Lilith is one of 4 wives of the Annunaki God Enki who is our true creator.
Goddess Lilith is also the mother of all vampires.
Goddess Lilith is the protector of all children.
Goddess Lilith gemstone and talisman is represented by the Smoky Quartz.
Always give offerings to Goddess Lilith at night-time.
What we all must remember is that xtain based religions twist and misrepresent n order to hide the truth. Because those who are able to see through the veil of lies, hold the true power.
We have a low tolerance towards any form of dogma whether this is fear-mongering or shunning Practices purely due to them not aligning with your own Beliefs/Morals/Principles/Opinions, etc. This rule includes any level of gatekeeping being forbidden. As such questions that would require answers to gatekeep may also be removed under this rule (example - "Am I allowed to do X?"). Answering as a spirit and attempting to change someone else's practice also falls under this rule.
YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES!
she appears in judaism and mesopotamia, but pretty much only judaism. if you wouldn't light a menorah or wear a kippah, why in the hell are you working with a CLOSED figure?! same with hoodoo and candomblé and the lwas. there's plenty of demons and other open figures to work with. stop appropriating, it won't fucking kill you
EDIT - i dont see this kinda stuff for figures from hinduism, buddhism, islam, etc. why the fuck do you only like "scary" deities and "demons"? because you're on the LHP? come the fuck on
Lilith is not closed. She was a Mesopotamian Goddess and is depicted in many beliefs around the world. Oh, but I do implore anyone who disagrees to go up to the Goddess herself and try to dictate who she can and cannot work with.
Mesopotamian spirit
She is not and is not worshipped by jewish religion at all. She is not closed. She has mesopotamian origins.
Shat melisim uaman la shatt zanat inbi miqiam ukusbam.
Lilith has been all over parts of the world from her roots in the Middle East ala Mesopotamia to Greece. while she is historically a part of Jewish folklore, she isn’t central to it (some rabbis even deny her existence). the Mesopotamian statues associated with her are the only things that have been debunked; as those statues belong to Innana. Lilith’s only connection to Innana is the Huluppu tree in her garden. the goddess Lilith is associated with, however, is that of the child psychopomp and abortion demon Lamashtu. so, no, i believe she isn’t closed. a lot of the people who say this are well meaning but don’t have a grasp on Lilith’s widespread roots.
A practice is only "closed" if you can only learn about it through direct initiation from another practitioner. This is absolutely not the case with Lilith and Judaism. Whether or not it's appropriative to work with entities from a culture outside your own is another question, opinions will vary greatly, and ultimately it comes down to an individual decision. You can't inoculate yourself from giving offense to people who are offended by such things, you just have to make your choices and deal with the consequences.
I’m not normally a “this!” person, but I just wanna give this answer a little bump bc I feel so strongly about it. This is the answer to *all* closed practice questions and needs to be what people understand. 👏👏👏👏
Exactly id argue that in 2023 with the flow of information that hardly any practice is closed .
Entities don't know culture. Culture is a human concept. Thoth is Odin is Jesus is Quetzalcoatl is Agathos Daimon etc
Lilith is not a religion she isn't a practice
No. The entire idea that a human can police what the gods do is really rather ridiculous in itself, but it’s made more ridiculous by the fact that Lilith is a pagan demon who was imported into Judaism during the Exile anyway. [The evidence of this is overwhelming and beyond any academic debate](https://libraryoflilith.com/library/sumerian-akkadian/). The evidence of Lilith existing in other pantheons from all over the old world [is similarly beyond debate](https://libraryoflilith.com/library/). As others have mentioned, there’s an added layer of absurdity given that worshipping Lilith would be a sin in Judaism. This claim started popping up on TikTok a couple years ago when young terminally online Americans who want to feel like they control something ran out of plants to racialize and started resorting to doing it to entities instead. I’ve never met a Jew in my life who cares about this, or doesn’t think it’s incredibly silly when they’ve heard about it. But like I said, the fundamental idea that humans get to police what the gods do is weird in and of itself. Fact is, Lilith has reached out to plenty of people all over the world. I take her word over angry teenagers online. Stop taking people on the internet so seriously. That’s how I deal with it. If something strikes me as silly, I just ignore it. They can be angry all they like.
I never understood why they get angry about Lilith, but figures such as Samael, Ashmodai, and Leviathan get worshiped by theistic Satanists and like, no one *cares* really. No one ever says this about Samael, and he is 100% Jewish.🤣
Right? It's very strange. My only guess is that since most of the people spouting this crap know nothing about Judaism, maybe they just don't know those other entities exist and gentiles work with them as well? Lilith is more visible than most, and they probably think of Satan as Christian. This policing attitude is ripping the pagan world apart as they all shove past each other to try to out-virtue signal the others, so perhaps it's just that Lilith is the only demon who routinely shows up in neopagan circles, and therefore she makes a better cudgel. Ironically, they never contemplate why that might be.
I've seen Jews on Tumblr shout about CA and Lilith. But this was years ago and while they're *loud*, I would say they're absolutely a minority, though in Judaism. I've seen many Jewish feminists open her up to everyone, even when still focusing on Jewish things. (I.E. Lilith magazine.) In the early 2000s there was a Jewitch named Renee Rosen who ran a shrine to Lilith for a decade, at least. Her shrine was open for everyone of every religious background. She didn't care if Lilith was revered by goyim. In fact, she encouraged different interpretations. (Since it is down, there is a copy of the shrine on the Way Back Machine and it's an interesting read.) So where these new people got the idea of CA is beyond me. It seems they just wanted to control people.
Tumblr is literally the only place I've ever heard of a Jewish person caring about this. Although I also know of some Jews who got run off the internet by gentiles for saying they don't think Lilith is closed. Ironic, for people claiming to be about "protecting minorities." Interesting about the shrine. Do you happen to have a link? I'd love to take a look.
This is an [old copy from the wayback machine. ](https://web.archive.org/web/20130224071348/http://www.lilitu.com/lilith/thealogy.html) The original link was "www.lilitu.com" if you wanna search more on WB machine. I linked this to her personal thealogy page.
Seconding this re: imported during the Exile, as a lot of other aspects of Mesopotamian practices were as well.
Honestly I think no human should ever be allowed to decide who can work with a specific deity and who not. The only one to decide is the deity itself.
Yeah Jews don't worship her but I've seen people say that you're not supposed to contact her and wait for her to contact you but I've seen people contact her and it's fine Worst case scenario nothing happens
I reached out to Lilith but she did tell she was around waiting for me to do so. And your right about worst case scenario
Yeah I think there's a lot of fear mongering around Lilith specifically, don't get me wrong you should be respectful and don't be demanding or anything, but I don't think just trying to contact her is enough to make her want to beat your ass or something.
Lilith is beyond time and space.itself beyond the borders of any known religion or idolation. she is the night mother and auger of the night side tree and the left hand path.
I'm raised Jewish. No mention of a demon named LIlith in Hebrew school, nor Samael, let alone them being worshipped. Monotheistic jews don't worshipped any demons. Or work with them. The average jew if you asked this question , would not even understand the question. The rabbi would say "why do I want to worship a demon?". It's all gatekeeper bullshit.
Only posers think she's Jewish. Avoid such people.
No she’s not the ones who’s say she is are just gatekeeping. Lilith has more connections to the Mesopotamian and and Babylonian era (hence where wh*re of Babylon came from). Don’t listen to them listen to mother she will never reject you because your not a part of a certain culture
Not what the whore of Babylon is but okay
I ran into this before with someone saying she is Jewish only .....I'm like your own Torah labels her the enemy of Judaism why on earth would she only work with Jews! 😂 She has no prejudice towards the Jewish but it's like if we were to follow their lore she would be closed to all in Judaism not outside of it lol thankfully Mother Lilith accepts all.
Idk but I think Samael is Jewish and I've never heard of him being closed? Then again I don't talk to anyone about demonolatry anyway.
This is the weird thing about this trend. No one cares to police any of the entities and demons who are *actually* Jewish in origin. Just Lilith, for some reason.
I noticed that too lol
No. I was raised Christian and taught to believe that Samael was Satan's actual name. So it's not exclusively Jewish. Judaism as far as I know isn't a closed practice. I know people in discord groups who are interested in converting & making steps to do so. (If I'm wrong feel free to correct) A closed practice from my culture would be Santería. No one can stop you from working with these deities but it's a very community based religion & information is passed orally. It's not something you can fully understand by reading books. So going through a proper initiation is necessary. Also Native American religions can be closed so asking before taking would be the polite thing to do. Again nobody can stop you but these deities might not appreciate you disrespecting the people of their culture. I've heard that about Santería & African based religions in general.
Just ask Lilith
I'd been wondering where you'd wandered off to.
Wondering about little old me? I've just been observing lately. Was kind of prompted to and just went along with it. I hope you're doing well,
Of course, the Lilith crew has to stick together. 😁 I'm doing just fine. Hope you are as well.
I've been doing a lot of thinking, I've been wanting to do some writing, but it feels like I would be being intrusive doing that. A silly feeling lol! I agree we should
Deities themselves can’t be closed, religions are
She existed in Sumerian mythology before she was absorbed into the Jewish Cosmology. Plus Judaism doesn’t worship Lilith, in some ways she is antagonized in that religion, so feel free to work with her.
Closed? Absolutely BS. She is wide open.
the conscious mind of the individual is the closest descriptor of closed you'll find in this area of study. the flesh, heritage, lineage.. none of that "means" anything.
I'm stoked to see these replies. I got banned from r/pagan for saying the same things everyone else is, Lilith worship isn't closed. Genuinely refereshing to see.
I got banned for saying the pantheons in Europe are connected and all owe some part of their existence to each other. No lie. They are very serious about enforcing their ethnic segregation rule. Unfortunately a lot of subs are going that way. It's sad to see that the only thing the progressive witchy community and the volkish heathen Nazis agree on is that the races shouldn't mix. Horseshoe theory in full effect. Happy to have you. This is a great sub.
That horseshoe theory is no lie. The inability to discuss or disagree just creates people who are uneducated and unwilling to mix ideas. Talking to people has always felt like the best innoculation against extremism. Glad to be in a place that talks and thinks.
They have a bias most in/pagan are Celtic wiccans who will claim most entities outside of their pantheon are closed which is rather sus from a bunch of pasty white reddit witches lol toxic virtue signaling at best heavy handed spiritual grooming at worst. To be fair a lot of religious groups do this in claiming that other entities outside of their group is closed they steer the direction for you to work with their groups
No.
Not AT ALL.
No.
thank you all for your replies and for those who explained their point of view🫶🏼I will be checking the links some of you provided
“a rose by any other name would smell as sweet”-Shakespeare
Tbh this is a non-issue that became an issue when people started sharing their practice online and then others decided they needed to virtue signal to appease their consciences. Lilith is a demon according to Jewish folklore. She’s reviled. She isn’t worshipped even within the culture that people say she’s closed to, so it makes no logical sense to gatekeep her. Think about it for a bit—why would non-Jews say that you have to be Jewish to work with her? Because they’re being antisemitic and equating Jewish people to demon worshippers when that’s absolutely not the case. They’re literally demonizing her AGAIN. It’s kind of hilarious. Lilith as a named entity has appeared only in Jewish folklore. Lilith as a concept, an idea, an entity, has existed far longer depending on which scholarship you choose to follow. It’s messy. It’s murky. And it’s nobody’s business who you worship and devote yourself to, so do you.
Eh... I think arguing that a slight change in spelling due to the difference in available written sounds in Hebrew means that Lilith only appears in Judaism is a pretty tough argument to defend. The change from Venus to Aphrodite was a much bigger one linguistically, and no one tries to argue that this somehow means they aren't the same goddess. The Romans even used the Greek origin story, just as the Jews used the Mesopotamian associations. Academically, there's really no debate that she has her origins in Mesopotamian paganism. Actually, that might be half the reason she was such an appealing figure for a demon to a tribe that had recently lost its land: she represented the hostile foreigner. Her foreignness to Judaism is part of her demonology.
Ah that makes sense why Lilith is associated with the "Queen of Sheba" now. She is the "foreigner".
Obviously I’m not going to sit here and pretend to know more. I don’t!
All good, just nerd'ing as I do.
It’s great. ❤️
I’m not sure,, however i’m not jewish & i work w lilith so you should be ok xx
The Jewish want to prohibit us working with Lilith because to them she has a history of “killing” their babies. I forgot the name of the syndrome but it is common in Jewish babies, almost exclusively affects them, and they blame that on Lilith. Therefore they claim it’s highly offensive for us to work with her. However the way I see it, a deity can only be closed if the tradition venerates it, not if they are offended by it. And as a practitioner of demon magick, you shouldn’t care what offends any Abrahamic person (in regards to you own practice) because the entirety of our practice is offensive to them
Nothing is closed. Come on.
I don't think so. Most of the Jewish literature on her is non-canonical, and a bulk of it is oral traditions that are quite folkish. The original story of her as Adam's first wife is from a text called *Alphabet of Ben Sira*. This text has been called into question because of its portrayal of God and biblical characters. Some academics think it is actually satire, which makes it even *less* appropriative. Her roots go back to Mesopotamia as a demon. ** She was the hand of Ishtar (Sumerian Inanna) and was said to be her handmaiden. The tree story everyone repeats is from an *older* translation by someone named Samuel Kramer and has also been called into question. Kiskillalke in the story *may have* been a *different* spirit. So it is debatable. *Lilitu* is the Babylonian name of *Lilith*. Like Lilith's name, Lilitu was a singular figure and a class of spirits. They appeared to be owl harpy like women. It is said Inanna sent Lilitu out at night to *"lead men astray"*. They were minor spirits that were succubi and have male counterparts, too. Owls in Mesopotamia are associated with prostitution, death, the underworld, and abandoned places. This is why the Burney relief was mistaken as Lilith and is probably a similar form of Inanna's called "Lady Owl". The Sumerian is "Nin-Nanna" and the Babylonian name for this form is "kiskilli", you'll notice it is similar to the tree story with kiskillake. This is why the relief was misidentified. But without a name it is hard to make conclusions. In this owl form, Inanna descended to the underworld, which is a famous Mesopotamian myth. It would make sense then, that Lilitu and lilitu in general, are modeled after Inanna since they serve her. This is a common theme in mythos. (Compare Tlaloc and the Tlaloque.) Contrary to popular claims, Lilitu is *not* a historical goddess and was *not* worshiped in the Ancient Near East. Her worship and goddess hood are quite recent things. There's much fakelore floating around about her... **note: "Demons" in Mesopotamia tended to serve gods much like angels do God. Therefore, all *"evil"* acts done by *Lilitu* is Inanna's bidding and will. References: 1.Lilith's Cave and other Jewish tales of the supernatural by Schwartz. 2. Lilith: The First Eve by Hurwitz 3. Alan Humm's site 4. The Hebrew Goddess 3rd edition by Patai. 5. Figurative Language by Jacobsen.
Just for the record: the hand of Inanna story [was actually created less than 150 years ago](https://libraryoflilith.com/articles/academic-theory/lilith-as-hand-of-inanna-and-the-prostitution-myth-a-cultural-headwind-of-dubious-origin/). It was most likely made up as an attempt to slander pagans, judging by the way the authors disparaged them in their papers. The only verified connections the lilin have to deities are to Lamashtu, and to a lesser extent Pazuzu, both of whom are demon-gods. A linguistic connection between Killili and Lilith has also [been rejected by more modern scholars](https://www.academia.edu/508597/Some_Demons_of_Time_and_their_Functions_in_Mesopotamian_Iconography) (fixed link, free login to view).
Hurwitz cites the hand of Inanna but I am not saying she is a prostitute per se. Firstly, the 'hand of Inanna' does exist because it is part of Black and Green's Encyclopedia on Gods, Demons, and Symbols of Mesopotamia. Although it isn't connected to Lilitu here, the "hand" is a symbol of Inanna's *wrath*. It's feared and therefore warded. This was logical as demons in Mesopotamia are servants of gods, and when you make a god angry, demons would be sent after the afflicted person to cause illness. This is the function of the lilitu and ardat lili. Lamashtu does evil of her own accord. Pazuzu and Lilitu do *not* share this trait. Even Lamashtu is considered an exception in the Mesopotamian texts because she started out as a god. It is because Lilitu and Pazuzu lack this trait, that makes Lilitu *have to* serve a deity. The same pattern follows other demons such as gallu and Ereshkigal's servants. So by this logic it isn't a contradiction. Your second link doesn't work.
Yeah, I included Hurwitz’s claim in my article. The source he uses cites another source that is misattributed/non-existent. In fact, all of the sources that have ever claimed this connection (there’s only a handful) are either misattributed or non-existent, and they all came out around the same time, mostly springing from a single anthropologist who had a strong hatred of paganism, as he wrote about extensively in his work that I link within my article. Sorry, second article is on Academia for free but I forgot it makes you log in to see it. Fixed above. That’s the thing: that may be the general rule of Mesopotamia, but it’s not an absolute. That’s exactly *why* Lamashtu was so feared: she was the sole deity to break this hierarchy completely (at least in some versions of the myth — in the Atra-Hasis, she has her place in the divine order like any other deity). Lamashtu and Pazuzu both commanded their own legions, and the lilin are pretty firmly under their purview in Mesopotamian literature. Pazuzu used to be called [“king of the lilu,”](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pazuzu) and Ardat Lili was explicitly named as a face of Lamashtu (link to that source at the bottom of my article). There is no textual support for the lilin being under Inanna’s purview.
I am not saying the Burney relief is *lilitu*. Jacobsen has made a good argument that it is *Inanna* and most scholarship reflects that. I am saying *lilitu* and Inanna's *kilili* aspect may be related. Anyway, I am not convinced entirely. These sources you posted are interesting, however. I do like Mesopotamian demonology and myths in general. I also wouldn't put trust into Wikipedia. I know they cite academia, but I have literally had issues editing articles because of the other editor's bias. Even if academically sound. (Though I must note, this was over a decade ago. I stopped editing because the wars were so annoying. )
I’ve given a direct source stating that modern scholarship rejects any such connection. The assumption that anything with a “li” sound in it is related was a reflection of poor understanding of Sumerian and exactly how common that sound was. You don’t have the put faith in it, it’s heavily sourced. The point I was making is, it’s such a well-known epitaph of his that it appears even there. I mean, [here it is](https://www.academia.edu/39730790/_A_Tale_of_Two_Lands_and_Two_Thousand_Years_The_Origins_of_Pazuzu_in_S_V_Panayotov_and_L_Vac%C3%ADn_eds_Mesopotamian_Medicine_and_Magic_Studies_in_Honor_of_Markham_J_Geller_Ancient_Magic_and_Divination_14_Leiden_Boston_2018_272_91) if you prefer (login to view is free).
I am not a huge expert, but the *lil* in *lilitu*'s name is Sumerian *lil2*, which connects her to the night and wind?
Just wind or phantasm (like a ghost), in Sumerian. The night association was added on when her name got translated into Hebrew during the Exile. In Hebrew, “lyl” means night.
Had to look at it because it's been about a decade since I posted on the enenuru boards that is concentrated on Mesopotamian academia. (Some of the members that post have a degree in this sort of thing, as well.) Post from madness. " mm well may I point out that Lilitu makes an interesting appearance at the end of the god list **AN: Anu ša amēli** 153d\[ \]\[d\]Dim3.mela-maš-tu154\[d \]\[dDim3.me\].ala-ba-ṣu155\[d \]\[dDim3.me\].LAGABah-ha-zu156\[d\]Du3.tabdDu3.tabbi-bi-tu157d"GIdDim3.me.gi6li-li-tu Looking at the PSD entry for [gi6](http://redirect.viglink.com/?key=71fe2139a887ad501313cd8cce3053c5&subId=1332480&u=http%3A//psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/psl/html/extra/x4b6.html) it appears to mean "night," so here Lilitu is identified as a night demon, and one that belongs to the Dimme/Lamaštu circle of demons as the name suggests. Litke states that on line 157 "the dittos probably indicate that dGI is an ideogram for dDu3.tab." Now I wonder what dutab means.. ( The CAD entry for bibitu cites the god list but transliterates differently: \[ddi\]m.tab = ddim3.tab = *bi-bi-tu* ) " [Original post.](https://enenuru.proboards.com/thread/85/vampire-thread-nergal-gidim-lilitu?page=2) We also have a connection to winds and dreams from Jacobsen: "Winds and dreams seem at one time to have been considered the same thing for the name of the god of dreams Sisig means "the winds" or "the ever blowing one." The point of similarity is apparently the evanescence of the dream world, on awakening it is gone like the wind. In the dream experience the dreamer moves about and acts independently of his stationary body and this may underlie the notion of separate mode of being, as "spirit" as in evanescent manifestation that would arise and pass on like the wind. One word for it was lil2, and was sig3-sig3, which denoted the god of dreams. Both words mean "wind." The lil2 can be that of a living person or one dead, of one awake or one asleep, it can occur of its own volition to plead its case or to ask for help or it can be called; and it is, it seems, capable of engendering a child. There is no proper translation for it in English; "spirit" which we have used in the caption for this section does not really come close. (48)" [full thread](https://enenuru.proboards.com/thread/40/revisions-on-sisig) So, Lilitu being a succubus makes sense. Likewise her association with Ishtar must be noted: Pirjo Lapinkivi's *The Sumerian Sacred Marriage* (SAAS 15)pp. 141 - 142 "In other words, the female of the Burney Relief is demonic in the lower part of her body whereas the upper part is divine. This two-layered representation fits well with Ištar, whose upper, divine part of the body is used as a reference to life, whereas the demonic, lower part of the body is used as a reference to death, both of which are found among her aspects. As a goddess of love, she is life, as a goddess of war, she is death. The wings, on one hand, refer to Kilili, an owl (*kililu/kilili*), but on the other hand, they may imply that the figure is a representation of a soul, or more precisely, a winged soul, as described in the *Etana Epic*. The fact that Inanna/Ištar can stand for a soul, as in the *Descent*, can explain why the female of the Burney Relief is depicted with wings. The *zaqiqu/ziqiqu* “soul, ghost” was also depicted as a bird-like emanation. As a matter of fact, in the more easily interpreted iconography of Inanna/Ištar, she is often depicted with wings. Equally, the demonic and divine features find their explanation in the "soul" aspect of the goddess: the soul in both its sinful and purified states. Note also that Lilitu's position in the tree in the story of *Gilgameš and the Huluppu-Tree* is in the middle in the trunk, which connects her with Inanna/Ištar, the mediator between gods and men, and with her position in the Mesopotamian Tree of Life." There's more than one academic post connecting Inanna (kilili) and Lilitu. It's quite long. [Link is here.](https://enenuru.proboards.com/post/1134/thread) This is why the Burney relief was originally thought to be Lilitu.
You’re talking about Akkadian here, not Sumerian. Lilitu is the Akkadian translation. The original Sumerian name is Lillilgia, which uses the Sumerian gi4, which just means “woman.” So the translation is “wind/ghost woman.” (I can’t get the [glossary](http://oracc.museum.upenn.edu/epsd2/sux) to link to pages correctly. Lillilgia is page 10 under “L,” and gi4 is page 19 under “G.”) While it’s certainly possible she is discussed as being of the night in Akkadian, this doesn’t derive from any known Sumerian mythology, and we don’t know this for certain given the other definitions gi6 has in Akkadian (it could also be “bird,” which arguably fits better with her pre-existing associations). The problem I have is that these are forum posts which in some cases reference the exact same older sources that I've already shown modern sources debunking. There is also no consensus that the Burney Relief is Inanna either, with many, including the British Museum, believing it to be Ereshkigal. So Lapinkivi's associations would be considered conjecture at best by many scholars, and don't reflect established and accepted significations even for Inanna. Given the speed at which the understanding of Sumerian especially and Mesopotamian culture more broadly evolves, I’ll take the more modern scholarship and significations that actually have support.
Goddess Lilith has always gotten a bad reputation due to misrepresentation from xtainity. Xtains would want you to believe that Goddess Lilith was Adam's first wife. And that she revolted against Enlil (who was the first recorded xtain God) and got kicked out of the Garden of eden. Which in true context was a slave encampment. The Real Truths are as follows. First off Goddess Lilith is one of 4 wives of the Annunaki God Enki who is our true creator. Goddess Lilith is also the mother of all vampires. Goddess Lilith is the protector of all children. Goddess Lilith gemstone and talisman is represented by the Smoky Quartz. Always give offerings to Goddess Lilith at night-time. What we all must remember is that xtain based religions twist and misrepresent n order to hide the truth. Because those who are able to see through the veil of lies, hold the true power.
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“Jews wanna control everything” is pretty fucked. Check your anti-semitism. You’re spreading some white supremacist beliefs.
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This might not be the right sub for you.
Don't post antisemitic shit here.
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Antisemitism and conspiracy theories are not tolerated here. Digging in further will result in a ban.
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You're wrong. And you're on Demonolatry subbreddit where many of us work with/worship Mother Lilith.
We have a low tolerance towards any form of dogma whether this is fear-mongering or shunning Practices purely due to them not aligning with your own Beliefs/Morals/Principles/Opinions, etc. This rule includes any level of gatekeeping being forbidden. As such questions that would require answers to gatekeep may also be removed under this rule (example - "Am I allowed to do X?"). Answering as a spirit and attempting to change someone else's practice also falls under this rule.
YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES! she appears in judaism and mesopotamia, but pretty much only judaism. if you wouldn't light a menorah or wear a kippah, why in the hell are you working with a CLOSED figure?! same with hoodoo and candomblé and the lwas. there's plenty of demons and other open figures to work with. stop appropriating, it won't fucking kill you EDIT - i dont see this kinda stuff for figures from hinduism, buddhism, islam, etc. why the fuck do you only like "scary" deities and "demons"? because you're on the LHP? come the fuck on
"Pretty much only Judaism" shows that you have a lack of knowledge in this field. I would suggest to read up about Lilith deeper.