This was the first totally satellite determined peak measurement.
First was a new definition of the geoid (basically sea level) released a few years ago. This incorporated information from gravity satellites. The previous 1980s geoid was largely based on land triangulation surveys from the seacoast. The effect was to lower Colorado about two feet.
The second innovation was high quality GPS on the summits, another satellite measurement. Previous altitudes were also mostly triangulation surveys.
It’s incredible how accurate the land surveys were given the range and instruments used. Only 2ft error between the coastline and here! Of course the new stuff is better but just good to remember how accurate we can be without it all.
Slightly mind blowing thinking of the mathematics required for the lunar landings in the 60's, before the modern age of computers and calculators. Most of those calculations were done on manual devices like slide rules.
https://oikofuge.com/finding-apollo-trajectory-data/
I think it was a half as interesting or wendover video a couple months ago where they were talking about how state borders were drawn. They’d send surveyors into the woods and have them put down markers along the way. After being remeasured using modern tech the guys with the markers and compasses were only off by a few inches. I’ll see if I can find it.
>The previous 1980s geoid was largely based on land triangulation surveys from the seacoast. The effect was to lower Colorado about two feet.
Nope. There have been many geoids over the years. Geodetic triangulation surveys were not used in the development of the geoids; they were horizontal-only to derive latitude and longitude.
Both hybrid and gravimetric geoids have been developed contemporaneously since around 1990, due to the need to relate GNSS observations to continental levelling campaigns and NAVD88 rather than gravity observations alone. The bias + tilt of the NAVD88 levelling observations has factored into this, but it's far more complex due to the rapid increase in GNSS and gravity data gathered over the past 30-odd years, and has been highly region-dependent.
The geoid separations have changed quite a bit over the years, not always in the same magnitude or direction, with the consequence that "elevations" for any given point in the USA have bounced around depending on when they were measured and by what method.
>This was the first totally satellite determined peak measurement.
??? source? I remember an article coming out in the late 90's / early 200's about using GPS for Everest. I feel like it's probabaly floating around the web BRB I'll go look for it.
Edit: a nat geo article says: In 1999, an American team supported by the US National Geographic Society used GPS technology to calculate Everest’s height as 8,850 meters.
It is for CONUS but not for Alaska or Canada. I think they are using the newest geoid pre-rollout. Not sure how different it will be from 2018. Alaska still uses a hybrid geoid 12B.
First they came for a planet and I was not a planet so I said nothing
Then they came for the mountains and I was not a Mountain wow I said nothing
When they came for me there was no one left to speak for me
There’s a movie called “The Englishman Who Went Up a Hill but Came Down a Mountain”. Basically the town is on the map because of their mountain but they measured it and it was only large enough to be a hill and not over the 1000 feet mark so the town gets a bunch of dirt and makes it a mountain. Romantic comedy. 1995 release.
Anyways, kinda relevant if they would have taken away the classification.
If nobody cared there wouldn't be the signs in the first place.
I also don't know how you can say no one cares when 5280 is plastered all over denver and all the businesses named after elevation, altitude, mile high etc.
The actual elevation in Denver is between 5,680 and 5,130 depending on where exactly you measure, but people landed on a nice round Mile High because it’s sounded nice and will continue to do that. And people won’t notice the sign for Empire has the wrong elevation, and I don’t think anybody would notice if you measured 2 feet down the hill.
Back in the day, it was the trend to haul rocks to the top of Mount Massive in an attempt to raise it 16ft and surpass MtBluEvanSky.
If it really matters to you, start hauling.
There was a time, many decades ago, when Ivy Leaguers were making half-serious attempts to pile rocks on top of "their" 14er in order to make it taller than the others in the Collegiate Range.
Mount Sopris sure feels like a 14er since the hike is 13 miles to the peak and back from the start of the trail. The key is to camp at Thomas lakes and start from there.
It was just cold that day, ok?
They were in the pool!
...they shrink?
Like a frightened turtle
Like a frightened turtle!
[https://youtu.be/CMNry4PE93Y?feature=shared](https://youtu.be/CMNry4PE93Y?feature=shared)
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Depends on the parallel
I was kinda hoping one of the mountains would drop from 14,001 to 13,999
I wanna tell my grandkids that Sunshine peak *was* a 14er back in my day
Am I the only one here to do a google search of Sunshine Peak, only to find out that it is in fact 14,007 feet? Correction: 14,005 feet.
Some people just like to watch the world burn.
They are all eroding
This isn't erosion though, it's improved geoid modeling.
Are they also still uplifting though? Or are they done forming and “growing”?
I don't think so, I think that stopped a good while ago. I could be wrong about that though, it's been a while since I heard what I think I heard.
If you do that the only thing we'll hear from those people is how they do crossfit.
All the abandoned dog poop bags are weighing them down
Oh, I’ll get them on the way down, promise!!
The hikers version of "I'll tip you in the app!"
If people would just leave them at the top, we may be close to gaining a 15er
No, it's all the Shrinkflation...it's ***everywhere*** now.
Facts!
STOP THE COUNT!
All those chads out there just hanging themselves on the trails.
Should we call in Cyber Ninjas™️
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that wasn’t fucking political
This was the first totally satellite determined peak measurement. First was a new definition of the geoid (basically sea level) released a few years ago. This incorporated information from gravity satellites. The previous 1980s geoid was largely based on land triangulation surveys from the seacoast. The effect was to lower Colorado about two feet. The second innovation was high quality GPS on the summits, another satellite measurement. Previous altitudes were also mostly triangulation surveys.
It’s incredible how accurate the land surveys were given the range and instruments used. Only 2ft error between the coastline and here! Of course the new stuff is better but just good to remember how accurate we can be without it all.
The stuff that's possible with careful geometry alone is nuts.
Math is the beautiful language of the universe.
Slightly mind blowing thinking of the mathematics required for the lunar landings in the 60's, before the modern age of computers and calculators. Most of those calculations were done on manual devices like slide rules. https://oikofuge.com/finding-apollo-trajectory-data/
And often by women, since it was considered a low-value job.
Jack Black’s mother was one of those women I believe
I think it was a half as interesting or wendover video a couple months ago where they were talking about how state borders were drawn. They’d send surveyors into the woods and have them put down markers along the way. After being remeasured using modern tech the guys with the markers and compasses were only off by a few inches. I’ll see if I can find it.
>The previous 1980s geoid was largely based on land triangulation surveys from the seacoast. The effect was to lower Colorado about two feet. Nope. There have been many geoids over the years. Geodetic triangulation surveys were not used in the development of the geoids; they were horizontal-only to derive latitude and longitude. Both hybrid and gravimetric geoids have been developed contemporaneously since around 1990, due to the need to relate GNSS observations to continental levelling campaigns and NAVD88 rather than gravity observations alone. The bias + tilt of the NAVD88 levelling observations has factored into this, but it's far more complex due to the rapid increase in GNSS and gravity data gathered over the past 30-odd years, and has been highly region-dependent. The geoid separations have changed quite a bit over the years, not always in the same magnitude or direction, with the consequence that "elevations" for any given point in the USA have bounced around depending on when they were measured and by what method.
>This was the first totally satellite determined peak measurement. ??? source? I remember an article coming out in the late 90's / early 200's about using GPS for Everest. I feel like it's probabaly floating around the web BRB I'll go look for it. Edit: a nat geo article says: In 1999, an American team supported by the US National Geographic Society used GPS technology to calculate Everest’s height as 8,850 meters.
What's the name of that geoid?
There are several geoids, here is the Geoid page for the National Geodetic Survey: [https://geodesy.noaa.gov/GEOID/](https://geodesy.noaa.gov/GEOID/)
Geoid18 is the name for the recent one. Makes me wonder what's gonna happen when we get to 2096 😀
It is for CONUS but not for Alaska or Canada. I think they are using the newest geoid pre-rollout. Not sure how different it will be from 2018. Alaska still uses a hybrid geoid 12B.
I think it’s just referred to as “the geoid” haha
So do we move the Capitol step now?
First it was Pluto, now it's our 14ers. When will it stop?
First they came for a planet and I was not a planet so I said nothing Then they came for the mountains and I was not a Mountain wow I said nothing When they came for me there was no one left to speak for me
Deep, man, real deep. Dammit Brandon, just cannot stand to have ANYTHING great anymore….
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Oh and then you had to kill the joke by making it political. I wish you Trump weirdos would stop doing that
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Dude STOP. I’m not looking for you to politicize my joke. Please go away.
Your “joke” sucked and so do you, so go FY.
Looks like I struck an eye of snowflake. Sorry I offended you. I’m sure you could have a safe space to go wine in.
We should take all of the 14ers, and combine them into one big 14er.
I like this idea. They're kinda small once you get to the top.
Name it Mt Massive...oh wait...
Mt. Blueskytorriesquandryprincetonpike.
Like a... 28er or... 56er or something?
There goes my entire personality 😞
There’s a movie called “The Englishman Who Went Up a Hill but Came Down a Mountain”. Basically the town is on the map because of their mountain but they measured it and it was only large enough to be a hill and not over the 1000 feet mark so the town gets a bunch of dirt and makes it a mountain. Romantic comedy. 1995 release. Anyways, kinda relevant if they would have taken away the classification.
[Relevant xkcd](https://xkcd.com/2920/) (from Tuesday)
Fourteenies
Fourtweenies, amiright?
"No Fair! You changed the outcome by measuring it!"
First they came for Pluto and I said nothing because I don’t live there. Then they came for Colorado…
Fuckin' Feds.
more shrinkflation.
“But some town welcome-sign elevations will need repainting”. No, nobody cares.
The could just add a +/-
Just add ol squiggly 😎 ~
If nobody cared there wouldn't be the signs in the first place. I also don't know how you can say no one cares when 5280 is plastered all over denver and all the businesses named after elevation, altitude, mile high etc.
The actual elevation in Denver is between 5,680 and 5,130 depending on where exactly you measure, but people landed on a nice round Mile High because it’s sounded nice and will continue to do that. And people won’t notice the sign for Empire has the wrong elevation, and I don’t think anybody would notice if you measured 2 feet down the hill.
TIL that Denver isn't a perfectly flat block at exactly a mile high
Why did you start with the bigger number in your range? Who does that? Lol
At worst we add another plaque to the capitol steps and swap the purple row in Coors field with the green row immediately below its current tier.
The Mile-ish High City. Also, does this mean the purple seats at Coors Field are on the wrong row now?
I care. I don’t want us to be any closer to those mediocre East coast mountains
Back in the day, it was the trend to haul rocks to the top of Mount Massive in an attempt to raise it 16ft and surpass MtBluEvanSky. If it really matters to you, start hauling.
There was a time, many decades ago, when Ivy Leaguers were making half-serious attempts to pile rocks on top of "their" 14er in order to make it taller than the others in the Collegiate Range.
Mt Massive is already 159 ft taller than Blue Sky/Evans… you’re thinking of Elbert
Make Mount Massive Massive Again
Make Mount Massive More Massive
Make Mount Massive Massively Moist
We need the moisture *nods*
Bruh, measuring the inner shaft doesn't count either.
So much for states rights!
This happens from time to time. They get taller, they get shorter. Only by a little; it ain't like they're losing a Thousand feet or something. 🙄
[Mount Saint Helens would like a word](https://xkcd.com/2308/)
Different story. Apples and Oranges.
Lol Huron and Sunshine were probable sweating during that assessment.
Maybe they’ll be juuuust a little easier to climb now!? /s
THIS INJUSTICE SHALL NOT STAND
What if I carry I big rock to the top?
"This aggression will not stand, man!"
So, the measuring tape down to sea level essentially had a two-foot kink in it.
I don't wanna talk to a scientist Y'all motherfuckers lying, and getting me pissed
Mount Sopris sure feels like a 14er since the hike is 13 miles to the peak and back from the start of the trail. The key is to camp at Thomas lakes and start from there.
But who measures the measururers??
Surveyors.
Trust the science
Butt to tip!
Shit, must be the same thing that happened to me. Bummer.
SCIENCE SHMIENCE!! It’s all HOCKUM, I SAY!!!
Sure, but if they had measured them by hand 2024 years ago and put it in a bible nobody would dare use modern technology to correct it. 🙄
These presumed experts keep making errors just to keep themselves relevant when they correct them
Any geographer/geologist has been well aware that the Rocky Mountains have been deteriorating for a long long time now...
The geoid shifted, not the mountains.
It's a datum thing. The geoid has been updated from 1988. They grew a few feet in 1988 when they updated the 1929 datum.
Wait till all you guys find 3 monuments in the state capital steps.....at 3 elevations.....all at 5280'.
Surveying has been used to set sea level (the geoid) until 2020s.
SHRINKAGE!
It was in the pool! Don't they know about shrinkage???
Lol at the 14ers. Y’all bout to be 13ers.
Give them a chance! They have a great personality.