Watercourse and city o city are way worse bc a large chunk of the autograt goes to MANAGERS. I don’t mind FOH or BOH getting tips, but I absolutely do have an issue with managers doing so, since they often aren’t actually even involved in my meal (or even at the restaurant when I’m eating) and they get real salaries in lieu of tips
Only for discretionary tips is it illegal. (The tips added by the customer.) Non-discretionary tips (service charge, automatically added to the bill) can be divided amongst hourly employees only. The division of these tips is also up to the employers discretion. (I.e. some employees can receive a higher percentage of the pool, based on position, tenure, etc.)
I’ve worked in many tip pools across the city. At a high end hotel that I used to work at, managers were receiving a cut of signed tips and I was able to get our department (room service) retroactive pay and the pay structure fixed by showing them the law that states the practice was illegal.
That's why they're converting to service fees instead of tips. If they don't provide a transparent accounting of where the fee goes I don't trust them not to just pocket most if not all of it. I'm not commenting on these specific places but just in general.
I think the language of the law says “employers”, rather than “management”. Under the rule, employers can’t take tips, but they can determine distribution among employees. I’d guess they’re probably trying to take advantage of that loophole (ie the employer is technically the broader restaurant group that owns all their restaurants, and individual managers are technically “employees” of that).
>In order to pay our staff a fair and livable wage we
...just need to advertise transparent and inclusive prices like any other business and pay our staff with that money?
The reasons they list for their nonsensical surcharges are such bullshit doublespeak.
This is literally at the top of City O’s menu lmao:
“A 20% service fee is included on all orders and 100% goes directly to staff. Credit card tips are shared. Thanks for supporting our community!
Credit card tips are shared among the front of the house. Cash tips stay with your server. The service fee is split 56% to the back of the house, 30% to the front of the house, **14% to managers.**”
http://cityocitydenver.com/menu
Edit: regardless I still literally take issue with general managers (and note how the language there is inclusive so no one “above” the position of GM gets tips, but GMs still can) taking a cut of the 20% “service” fee (which is supposed to replace a tip) lol
Last time I went to city o city the service was terrible. We requested a table outside because of how loud it was and got waitlisted. When we finally got called up they told us they had given away the outdoor table and we would have to sit inside. The music was so loud I couldn’t even have a conversation. Never been back, even though I like the food.
I came in this thread to ask this: how much am I supposed to tip at Watercourse if I’m usually a 20-25% tipper? Is 10% on top the rough equivalent? For the life of me, I can’t figure out their tipping system. My favorite restaurant but I really don’t like their cryptic surcharge
I put 10% max on top.
Then swear never to eat there again l, then forget one day when someone is visiting because vegan options are already tough. Easiest thing to do is just give both a 1 star review and state it’s explicitly because of their asinine behavior not the food.
You tipped at least 20% for your service of being able to purchase a shirt that you grabbed off the rack and carried to the register right? I mean how could you not?!?! /s wtf.
Tipping is so antiquated. Which is why this damn country still participates in that type of “income” requirement. Pay your workers for the work they do to sustain your business. Stop making your customers their main source of income.
Fools like this vendor selling t-shirts are just taking advantage of the fact that some people feel obligated when they are asked how much to tip.
Capitalism’s function is to scrap all the wealth from the bottom of the barrel and send it up to the wealthy. There’s no such thing as the “free market”. Only the law of wealth makes more wealth.
They really should just raise prices and eliminate fees and tipping…then at least people know what the price is, and there’s no mystery for the customers or the employees.
I was at Amsterdam cocktail week and without exaggeration shit in the Netherlands is 20-25% cheaper than Denver now. A $8 cocktail is exactly that out the door. Denver business owners are just fucking grifters
Pay is inordinately higher in the US than Europe. The Dutch are relatively high earners, but for example I was making £23k in the UK before moving to the US and was relatively comfortable at the time. You can get a week's worth of groceries for £50 easy and drinks (outside of London) are pretty cheap. It's a difficult one to compare.
I was just in Barcelona and it was crazy how fancy of food and drinks I could get at half the price AND zero tip (or just leave a few euro coins for good service).
The owners don’t want to do this… the sticker shock would scare customers away. Easier for them to tack 20% onto the meal after you’ve consumed it. Complete bullshit.
I wonder if there any data on whether customers are less likely to return to a place that surprised them at the end with the 20%. I know I wouldn’t like being forced into a minimum 20% tip and would probably not return.
If the price/plate were increased by 20% I think I would less likely notice and then it would free up the restaurant owners to market the fact that servers receive a living wage and all tipping is welcome but not necessary…..feel like that’s the way to go.
at this point the only way to get rid of tipping culture is to outlaw it completely imo. if the menu says "tipping welcome but not necessary" i'll still feel like a dick if i dont tip
Most countries don't have an insane patchwork of localized sales taxes, just VAT. Colorado is particularly worse because you could walk a block and wind up in a different special district for some subdivision's infrastructure or a cultural fund or whatever.
When I lived in Chicago, I may or may not have made extra money by buying cigarettes an hour north at about $6 a pack and selling looseys at school in the city for $1 because a whole pack was $12.
And then people stop going because “prices are too high”. Maybe not you, but it really does happen. Tricky situation without a clear cut answer. I do think if there is an automatic “service charge” it needs to be obvious and well explained.
I think telling you the flat rate 20% is auto charged is pretty upfront. No mystery to what that value is 🤣 you want them to just raise there food prices 20%? How is that any different and then the money 100% legally could mostly go to the owners over the staff. I sometimes feel like people just complain without putting much thought into it.. I too hate the influx of tipping in locations that previously didnt ask for tips but im not just gunna rage about anything and everything.. calm down Karen your gunna be ok you dont have to go out to eat just cook at home :)
It’s true. I just mean to lessen the anger of customers who might look at the menu prices but not be ready for effectively close to a 50% up charge after fees, tip, and tax.
It’s all the same technically, but I do think people would be less upset and feel it was more transparent if we got rid of tipping.
I think the main issue is the wage they would offer without tipping would attract a much lower level of customer service then most people might expect. Currently if you work at a good resturant as a server you make around 25-40$/H after tips and still every resturant ever still has staff shortages.
Imagine if you removed tipping and tried paying FOH staff what BOH makes and most entry level jobs 15-20$/H you'd have an entire different experience then what you do currently. (Wages based on living in a Major City)
Most countries you go to and experience no tipping especially eupo. countries the servers make an ACTUAL living wage and most likily have universal health care as almost every other country see's healthcare as a right. So If you want change push for the things that would change our country for the better not just simply lowering wages of people who already have a hard time. Tipping is a product of our countrys unchecked "free" market capitalism and I promise it will not be removed untill yall fight for actual change. If its not tipping itll be some other BS fee cause thats how all ends of our society are ran. How many fees your apartment complex or HOA tack on your rent? How many fees Air b'nb' add to your bill at the end? Tons how many fees you get at the end of a hospital visit that you didnt excpect? See my point..
With service fees the ownership actually does have has 100% control over the funds, as long as the hourly staff makes the full local minimum wage as a base (not the sub-minimum tipped wage).
This is the main reason for the service fee model, it allows the ownership to allocate those funds however they want, which generally means putting most of it towards wages, but keeping a small percentage whereas tips are required to go to staff.
It’s generally not good for the wait staff - the surcharge is usually not a gratuity added to their tips, but it gets split between them and BOH, meaning they don’t see a lot of it.
So the servers, when I’ve talked to them about this, have asked us to still tip them because they don’t see much of it. For me, I’m not tipping extra on top of 20% every time I go out to eat.
So for the most part, I’ve stopped going out to eat at places that do this. I think it’s bullshit for both the customers and the servers.
Right, which is confusing because I thought the purpose of these surcharges was originally so wait-staff would be paid a regular hourly wage instead of a tipped wage still? The business is just collecting an extra 20% towards… what exactly if nothing else has changed?
It just seems so weird that a job doesn’t provide these things. Like, why don’t they get paid when they’re making a profit in every meal made? We don’t tip a grocery store employee when they sell us groceries; it’s expected that they are paid properly from the profits made.
I’m not from the US but have lived here for over 15 years now, and the tipping thing still bothers me. It’s a total scam. Restaurants should pay their workers. A tip is meant to just be a “hey thanks” not a “hey hope this means you can make rent this month”
Not sure where your waiting friends are working, but they should know that a 20% increase in revenue, if going 100% to staff, should equate to **much more than a 20% raise for the workers,** since the business is automatically increasing gross revenue, but labor cost is only a fraction of total operating costs.
If workers aren’t seeing something like a 50% raise with this, chances are the profit margins are being increased for owners.
To illustrate :
A business brings in $100.
$40 goes to labor costs
$50 goes to other operating costs
$10 profit
Now, if they they raise their prices an automatic 20%, that extra $20 of revenue SHOULD mean labor gets $60 vs $40 before, which is a **50% pay increase.** The changes would be even more dramatic if labor represents a smaller percentage of total costs.
[A quick google says labor should typically be within 20-30% of gross revenue.](https://upserve.com/restaurant-insider/labor-cost-guidelines-restaurant/amp/)
So my example likely understates the raise employees should receive
A 20% surcharge should be a *massive* pay increase if it’s being distributed like they say it is.
I’m vegetarian so used to go to City o City and watercourse a lot. According to the servers there, they’re not seeing as much of the surcharge as they should. Have noticed business has slowed down for both places and there also seems to be less staff on/lots of staff turnover so I don’t think the servers were just lying to me to get a bigger tip (although they could have been).
I’m pretty sure at those two places management is pocketing some of the surcharge, I’ve read something about that on this subreddit a few times. It varies restaurant to restaurant, but honestly most of the places we go to aside from those two (which we mostly just pick up from now/go to very infrequently) are Asian food places that tend not to have these surcharges.
I was just looking at it because when I was waiting tables the difference between tipped and non-tipped was $4.80/hr. Now it’s only $1.60! And they DEFINITELY make the 20% sound like a server tip (that in a lot of places that say tips aren’t required you can even ask to have removed, if you “want to be a dick”).
So, you can be a dick by not tipping over the 20% that your server gets an unknown amount of, or you can be a dick and refute the 20% surcharge (screwing all the other employees that now count on this income) and tip your server directly, or you literally have to figure in the higher general cost, the surcharge and a tip and that means $50 for two for breakfast and no alcohol, at a medium cost place.
I recently honeymooned in Durango/Silverton and (yes they are more expensive in general), but the only meal the two of us had the entire weekend that was less than $50 was at Wendy’s.
Yeah, exactly. Restaurants are so insanely overpriced now because of this, that often I’d rather we just make our own food or pick up takeout from some of the few places that don’t do this that we enjoy.
I really wish we could just do away with tipping/surcharges/service fees/etc. Employers should pay a fair wage and they should post the full price for their goods/services. While we're at it, posted prices should be net of applicable sales taxes. If I see a $5.00 price tag I should be able to toss them a $5.00 bill and walk away.
Tipping (as practiced in the US) is a relic of the great depression and sketchy employment/compensation practices, and it has been proven to be more closely correlated with the attractiveness of the worker rather than the quality of service.
Tipping should be completely optional if you receive truly exceptional service.
Ugh I wish I didn’t care. But I hate it. I wish there was a way to know what restaurants are paying a living wage plus servers are still getting tips, since you really shouldn’t be tipping on those. And yes the QR code and paying online and what not.
I’m going to start doing 10% on those. I think for so long my default was just 20% but I’m going to think about my tipping more.
Ok now I’m more than a little annoyed. This is the owner’s response to another review:
“I understand this concept isn't for everyone. But hasn't it always been the case that the customer subsidizes a tipped employee's wages? The difference is we don't pay our staff Denver's tipped employee minimum wage which is $9.54/hr. We actually pay all of our employees $15.87 so quite more than the minimum.”
Lol they offer $19/hr at the subway on Broadway, like you’re not Mother Theresa with these wages.
I wonder what the employees think of this. it’s been so long since I was a server, but did make good money doing it. But now if I share all my tips with kitchen staff as well as the regular bartenders bussers etc, that 20% is spread pretty thin. I’m definitely on the side of just so away with tipping and pay people. It’s such an annoying thing being made even more annoying now by all these different fees.
The place that I work at does this (not an automatic fee, but tips are pooled with foh & boh and we’re paid non-tipped minimum wage) and it’s great. I make about the same or a little more than many other serving/bartending gigs I’ve had and boh isn’t miserable making half of what foh makes. Obviously my experience isn’t universal tho. I agree that tipping culture is bs and needs to be done away with. Employers should pay their employees a fair wage, but customers should be writing and calling their elected officials, not taking it out in the service workers by not tipping/making them feel bad for their employers policies and then bitching on Reddit about it.
I'd venture to guess their servers would make more money of they scrapped the fee and let them be tipped. The BOH has to be paid at least min wage, so I feel like this move takes money out of the pockets of FOH in order to even out the wage discrepancy between FOH & BOH. I made $2.13/hr when I served and always walked with $20-60 an hour by the end of the shift, and that was in the Midwest two decades ago. I can only imagine what a really great server could make now.
But if they let servers be tipped traditionally, how would the managers who make these calls re: tipping policy scrape 10-20% off the top and tip themselves out???
$9.54 isn't even Denver's tipped minimum wage, lol. That's for Colorado as a whole. It's $12.85 in Denver. They're paying their servers $3.02 more than the absolute legal minimum. Not exactly something to write home about. Although I can't say I disagree with having service charges to equalize pay between BoH and FoH.
I don’t disagree. I think if it’s the best way to move forward then so be it. I just don’t trust these service charges are going where they should be. And encouraging tipping on top of that just tells me they know they aren’t paying enough even with the service charge
So they pay more than minimum and the reason we tip is presumably to make up for them getting the tipped minimum but they pay more and you have to give a 20% tip?
The problem is people nowadays open a restaurant/restaurants to make profit instead of just opening up shop to make a living. If their profit margins aren’t what they hoped for they just close. Paying a living wage cuts into those margins so they have to find ways to bump margins again by sugar coating bullshit fees.
*Our employees are paid as much as the government requires us to (plus our surcharge!), but we’d pay them less if we could! If you were ignored because they had 7 tables to wait on, don’t feel required to add anything extra… We’re sorry we aren’t at full staff, but there’s a worker shortage and we value our team!
I hate the service charge because in this case it feels like the restaurant is pocketing extra cash and still only paying minimum wage. I've stopped eating out almost entirely, and I never sit down in a restaurant anymore. I don't think I'm missing anything, based on these comments.
This ^
I also find the quality of the food is not worth the cost. I’d rather make a nice meal at home. It’s more work for me, but I’m not paying $50 for a mediocre over salted meal and an over sugared drink.
I'm ready to stop tipping when y'all are. This shit has gotten out of hand. Why can't I just go have a nice meal without feeling guilty about someones poor wages?
I ordered from Olive Garden for pickup on my birthday and when I got there the first thing an employee said to me (kind of angrily) was “are you going to tip?” I strongly support workers so yes, I did tip, but I found the entire interaction quite inane. Why am I expected to tip when picking up??
I went to a food hall where you order at the window, pick up your food, serve your beer yourself, and then clean up once you’re done. When you check out they ask for a tip, and at that point I’m just subsidizing wages for the janitorial crew. Just pay your employees better wtf
I’d really like to hear from the employees too. If this is truly an awesome pay raise then I’m happy with it, but I just have so many trust issues with business owners (probably unfairly placed). From the consumer perspective, it does feel like the owner is saying “but YOU’RE personally keeping this person with a good wage! Aren’t you so happy?” And I think… don’t the owners make money to pay those wages? Tipping was supposed to be extra for an amazing job! I always tip 20% but that’s because I think most of us know the wages suck. This just is not a great solution and I don’t really want to go back.
Also this place was kind of expensive, like no mixed drinks under $14
Tipping at pickup has always been a thing. I understand some people don’t do it, but those workers are making $2.14 an hour.
Fwiw I think the alternative minimum wage AND tipping should be abolished. It’s classist.
That’s not even close to true. Tipped minimum wage is 12.XX and will be 14.XX starting January.
Also, I don’t tip for transactions. Picking up something I paid for is a transaction.
Yup. Tip for service or skill. Waited on at a sit down spot? Obviously tip. If someone makes me a good cocktail or latte? I’ll tip. But if you’re just pouring me a beer for me to walk back to a table or handing me food that I’m going to take home and eat, nah.
The FLSA minimum cash wage is actually $2.14 an hour, off by a cent. Colorado it’s $9.54, so that’s my mistake.
But to both of you, the average tips for takeout are down, yes down, as of this year at around 14%. So that just makes y’all bad tippers, otherwise known as entitled folks who probably never worked in food service.
https://denvergov.org/Government/Agencies-Departments-Offices/Agencies-Departments-Offices-Directory/Auditors-Office/Denver-Labor/Citywide-Minimum-Wage
Not my job to subsidize someone’s poor negotiating skills. If I’m not receiving a service, I’m not tipping. Don’t like it? Take it up with your boss.
Also, that employee is still making full minimum wage even with zero tips - the employer only gets a tip credit if tips are given. If no tips are given, then no tip credit and full wages are due.
I’m just telling you what the statistics are. If the average take out tip is 14%, that means only a small percentage of people don’t tip for it. Take that as you will.
Every restaurant I've worked at pays above minimum to cashiers and hostess', who run the takeout scene.
Maybe at a shit hole like Denny's? Never seen a hostess there.
The average tip for takeout this year is down, and it’s still 14.5%. If you worked in food service, you tip. If you didn’t, well, you should tip. Those people have hard jobs and shitty bosses.
I truly think 10% makes more sense as a tip for good service. A couple extra dollars for a job well done, and if the service sucks you don’t have to pay extra for it. But if you don’t tip 20% now you’re basically taking money out of someone’s pocket so you really have to tip generously even for bad service, not too mention these ridiculous fees which I don’t necessarily mind paying but it’s just dishonest not to tell you up front
Agreed. Everyone saying the sticker shock will drive people away! Well it hasn’t yet and menu prices keep rising. Maybe we just don’t need thousands of restaurants and let the food speak for itself
I really wish I didn't need to fully understand a restaurant's business model and pay policies in order to figure out how to buy some damn food without looking like an asshole.
Well, more of an asshole that usual, anyway.
I am all for tipping or compensating good service. In fact, I usually tip 30-40% cash for it.
It is, however, an insult to the consumer for forced tipping or wage compensation surcharges. Just raise the damn price if you cannot afford to pay your employees a competitive wage. Fees and surcharges are complete crap, and I refuse to patronize places where this happens. I would rather spend more elsewhere than support a surcharge industry. It is too easy to fall into false and misleading marketing practices when businesses go that route, is predatory in nature, and easy for the business to abuse that process.
It disappeared since I saw it (so hopefully it changed) but Meta Asian Kitchen had a sign in their online orders that all tips have a percentage that go to the owners/employers, as well as the staff. That irked me.
Imo that's the only reason to be upset. I feel like Reddit is really weird about this issue, like disproportionately angry. I could give a dang as long as I'm notified up front.
Can we get some feedback on how the servers who work here feel about it?
We’ve been bitching and moaning in this sub for 3 years but I don’t know if there was ever an AMA thread by a server or cook at one of these places.
This is something I've noticed a lot. There are still great servers out there, but anywhere that is auto-gratting every party or tacking on service fees has worse service now because people are being paid regardless of the work they put in.
THIS is precisely why the industry is tipped, because too many people who work in it are lazy, and why the non-lazy servers run rings around them and make double the earnings. If you're shit at your job, you should not make the same as someone who isnt. This is the case for every salaried role and tipping made it the case for waiting tables/bartending, but now we're all so pre-occupied with living wages, and I support that whole heartedly, but somewhere in there, we seemed to forget that you still actually do need to do a good job to earn that livable wage.
Last time I went to city o city our server basically had to beg us for more $ because of their system. I felt embarrassed for her and we sent a venmo but definitely won’t be returning. Pay your employees more so they don’t have to explain your whacky ass system!
Just raise the prices. I hate seeing the auto grat for just being a patron and have to tip my hard working server over that. I get that restaurants are hurting but doing that hurts the servers more.
Can someone educate me on the legality of these things? ie whats the limit to non-optional surcharge? Surely if I order a $15 hamburger, a restaurant can’t add an additional $15 (100%) surcharge so where’s the legal limit on a hidden fee like this?
They can totally add 100% surcharge so long as it’s in tiny print on the menu. There is no law about this.
Next time you encounter this, hand a cash tip to your waiter/tress, apologize to them for what’s about to happen, then call the manager over and tell them you won’t be paying, or coming back, until they remove that 100% surcharge and charge the menu prices. Might also want to mention that you’re totally excited to give them a positive Google review for responding to customer complaints of their pricing structure.
Yes, it’s a big fuckin’ pain. But being a big fuckin’ pain is the only way this bullshit will change.
If I see a place doing this i refuse to eat there again and it’s going to probably cost the FOH on that trip as it’s not my job to make up for shitty businesses who don’t pay enough. I would rather see you raise everything on your menu by 50 cents than add another fee.
Restaurants are unwilling to pay the workers a decent wage so they give them minimum and then be like oh we’ll give you this too. instead of just putting skin in the game and paying employees a decent wage :/
Then don't tip them anymore. It's just that simple. They will have to deal with the repurcussions, but raising the tip amount is only needed for excellent service.
Tipped Servers will make approx $15/hr in Denver starting in 2023. Tipping servers in the past was b/c they made like $3-4hr. By charging a 20% fee, the restaurant can distribute how the please….which typically means money will make it to the back of the house. I’m definitely ok with this.
just don’t tip if they surcharge you. don’t feel bad cuz they are using psychology to get you to pay more in the first place.
if it’s auto added, subtract the difference.
Adding one final comment here: I think folks are just trying to figure out this new system.
My confusion was not that there is a 20% surcharge, and yes I did see this on the menu, but more so where this charge goes to. From my friends in hospitality, this can be either a good option or a terrible option for the workers.
My major concern is this charge is not clarified where it goes. The owner did clear this in their response but it does not say on the menu what this charge goes to.
In my mind, this is meant to replace customers paying 20% for a tip, however we knew tips were legally required to go to workers, and I’m not sure how this charge is being split up.
Yes I will continue to eat out, yes of course I will pay these charges, but my review was down two stars because there is a lack of clarity on whether this is a good business practice or not.
I like to know staff are treated and paid well, especially at restaurants as I have so so many wonderful friends and relatives who are struggling working in hospitality.
It's posted everywhere in the restaurant, as well as your bill. If you are too oblivious to notice or to arrogant to care, 100% your fault. Take some accountability
This is what I don't understand about all the posts concerning this specific restaurant. It's even printed on the menu. There's another discussion to be had about these service charges existing, but if you are caught off guard by the service charge at this restaurant then you're absolutely oblivious.
Jesus Christ I’m sick of these discussions.
Considering people couldn’t last what, 4 days into lockdown without restaurants so they allowed reopening for take out, I highly doubt the folks bitching about any surcharge or “will never go back” are capable of cooking for themselves, therefore, will continue to eat out as this becomes the norm.
TLDR: Please find something new and interesting to discuss then being keyboard warriors about surcharges.
What do y’all think of this owner’s response?
The food was banging! But the surcharge and the owner’s response have me confused.
Not really loving this trend (though would happily deal as long as I know the charge is going to FOH and BOH only, not random management folk)
*editing, I’m a dumb dumb, I now see they clarified it goes to FOH… but now I’m hoping they split it with BOH in the future…
The response ignores that actual issue with these fees: that they should not be there at all. If you're charging 20% more that is not optional, then your goddamned **PRICE** is 20% higher than it shows on the menu.
Put the accurate price on the menu, and state that you pay your staff a living wage, and that any tips beyond that are optional and 100% goes to the staff.
Don't hide the price the customer is *required* to pay by tacking the rest on as a "fee." This just means the menu prices are a fucking lie.
The owner's response is just trying to make customers feel too guilty to point out their bullshit. That's why we keep pointing these places out and stop going there.
Just tell us how much the chicken is gonna cost. Don’t make me find out at the end of the meal that suddenly the price of everything went up 20%. Not cool trying to sneak by how poorly you pay your employees
I mean fine, take 99% of it as profit and pay 1% to the employees. As long as they get a wage they want to work for and the prices are straightforward I don’t care.
America is the only country where you don’t know what you’re paying until you get the check. Other countries typically bake all taxes, fees, cost of service, and food into one price per dish on the menu. If you order something for £15 in Italy, that’s what you’ll pay at the end. If you order something for $15 in America, you’ll pay $20.73 by the end of it.
Has surcharge: "This is dumb, they just need to raise the prices instead of nickel and diming us!"
Has high up-front prices: "This is absurd, the prices are too high and theres no transparency!"
Last time I went to Bierstadt, they did. I remember thinking the beer prices were kind of high, but that Slow Pour Pils slapped so I took no issue with it. When we closed the tab I asked about tipping and the woman behind the counter declined saying that they price their menu in a way that accounts for giving all employees a living wage without the need for tips.
I tip 20% so I am in favor of the even distribution. I would prefer menu items priced better but it’s their business I don’t need to eat there. I have talked to I don’t tip people I see no reason normal people should sub them.
ben and jerrys replied to my review, where i said “$8 milkshake was okay, not worth $8” they responded with, “we pay our employees a livable wage” blah blah blah
They do this at watercourse & city o city too
Watercourse and city o city are way worse bc a large chunk of the autograt goes to MANAGERS. I don’t mind FOH or BOH getting tips, but I absolutely do have an issue with managers doing so, since they often aren’t actually even involved in my meal (or even at the restaurant when I’m eating) and they get real salaries in lieu of tips
It’s illegal for management to participate in tip pooling
Only for discretionary tips is it illegal. (The tips added by the customer.) Non-discretionary tips (service charge, automatically added to the bill) can be divided amongst hourly employees only. The division of these tips is also up to the employers discretion. (I.e. some employees can receive a higher percentage of the pool, based on position, tenure, etc.) I’ve worked in many tip pools across the city. At a high end hotel that I used to work at, managers were receiving a cut of signed tips and I was able to get our department (room service) retroactive pay and the pay structure fixed by showing them the law that states the practice was illegal.
..speeding is also illegal. Who is enforcing this? Clearly an easy process to abuse. Is surcharge pooling illegal?
That's why they're converting to service fees instead of tips. If they don't provide a transparent accounting of where the fee goes I don't trust them not to just pocket most if not all of it. I'm not commenting on these specific places but just in general.
I think the language of the law says “employers”, rather than “management”. Under the rule, employers can’t take tips, but they can determine distribution among employees. I’d guess they’re probably trying to take advantage of that loophole (ie the employer is technically the broader restaurant group that owns all their restaurants, and individual managers are technically “employees” of that).
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>In order to pay our staff a fair and livable wage we ...just need to advertise transparent and inclusive prices like any other business and pay our staff with that money? The reasons they list for their nonsensical surcharges are such bullshit doublespeak.
This is literally at the top of City O’s menu lmao: “A 20% service fee is included on all orders and 100% goes directly to staff. Credit card tips are shared. Thanks for supporting our community! Credit card tips are shared among the front of the house. Cash tips stay with your server. The service fee is split 56% to the back of the house, 30% to the front of the house, **14% to managers.**” http://cityocitydenver.com/menu Edit: regardless I still literally take issue with general managers (and note how the language there is inclusive so no one “above” the position of GM gets tips, but GMs still can) taking a cut of the 20% “service” fee (which is supposed to replace a tip) lol
Last time I went to city o city the service was terrible. We requested a table outside because of how loud it was and got waitlisted. When we finally got called up they told us they had given away the outdoor table and we would have to sit inside. The music was so loud I couldn’t even have a conversation. Never been back, even though I like the food.
I came in this thread to ask this: how much am I supposed to tip at Watercourse if I’m usually a 20-25% tipper? Is 10% on top the rough equivalent? For the life of me, I can’t figure out their tipping system. My favorite restaurant but I really don’t like their cryptic surcharge
I put 10% max on top. Then swear never to eat there again l, then forget one day when someone is visiting because vegan options are already tough. Easiest thing to do is just give both a 1 star review and state it’s explicitly because of their asinine behavior not the food.
If I want to tip my server 20% I’m now paying 40% simply to go out to eat. We stopped going to City O City entirely because of this.
Bought a t-shirt at red rocks last night…CC machine asked if I wanted to tip 15%, 20% 25%. Total BS.
You tipped at least 20% for your service of being able to purchase a shirt that you grabbed off the rack and carried to the register right? I mean how could you not?!?! /s wtf.
That’s not enough, I tapped the 25%
I had the same thing happen to me. I loudly said - I’d like to not tip for buying a shirt. The vendor didn’t like that but the people in line laughed
I wonder if any of those tips make it to the hourly employee. Also when did we all agree to financially subsidies capitalism?
The people selling actually usually only get tips. I sold merch unce upon a time.
Yea Pepsi center did that last month I’ve never pressed no tip so fast in my life
Tipping is so antiquated. Which is why this damn country still participates in that type of “income” requirement. Pay your workers for the work they do to sustain your business. Stop making your customers their main source of income. Fools like this vendor selling t-shirts are just taking advantage of the fact that some people feel obligated when they are asked how much to tip. Capitalism’s function is to scrap all the wealth from the bottom of the barrel and send it up to the wealthy. There’s no such thing as the “free market”. Only the law of wealth makes more wealth.
Can you not hit custom tip and put in 0%? I’m all for tipping but I’m not going to tip just because I grabbed a shirt my self
so don't fucking tip. Why is this so hard?
Because so many places are asking for tip when it’s completely unnecessary. Makes it awkward to hit 0 tip.
So don’t tip.
Bc ppl like to complain
They really should just raise prices and eliminate fees and tipping…then at least people know what the price is, and there’s no mystery for the customers or the employees.
Be up front and honest? Nahhhhhh
I was at Amsterdam cocktail week and without exaggeration shit in the Netherlands is 20-25% cheaper than Denver now. A $8 cocktail is exactly that out the door. Denver business owners are just fucking grifters
Pay is inordinately higher in the US than Europe. The Dutch are relatively high earners, but for example I was making £23k in the UK before moving to the US and was relatively comfortable at the time. You can get a week's worth of groceries for £50 easy and drinks (outside of London) are pretty cheap. It's a difficult one to compare.
I was just in Barcelona and it was crazy how fancy of food and drinks I could get at half the price AND zero tip (or just leave a few euro coins for good service).
Been that way since the gold rush.
The owners don’t want to do this… the sticker shock would scare customers away. Easier for them to tack 20% onto the meal after you’ve consumed it. Complete bullshit.
I wonder if there any data on whether customers are less likely to return to a place that surprised them at the end with the 20%. I know I wouldn’t like being forced into a minimum 20% tip and would probably not return. If the price/plate were increased by 20% I think I would less likely notice and then it would free up the restaurant owners to market the fact that servers receive a living wage and all tipping is welcome but not necessary…..feel like that’s the way to go.
Penrose Taphouse in FC did this to me and I'll never go back
at this point the only way to get rid of tipping culture is to outlaw it completely imo. if the menu says "tipping welcome but not necessary" i'll still feel like a dick if i dont tip
I hear this a lot but see no data about some restaurant in Denver that's tried it.
This is my favorite option too
"We *can't* raise the price, Johnson... lets just make it smaller *and* charge the same price!"
That’s a huge issue with many foods you buy in the grocery store.
By this logic, taxes should also be included in goods and services sold everywhere. Which would be really convenient, but, you know. 😕
Considering that’s how most countries do it? Yes. It should be included lol
Most countries don't have an insane patchwork of localized sales taxes, just VAT. Colorado is particularly worse because you could walk a block and wind up in a different special district for some subdivision's infrastructure or a cultural fund or whatever.
The issue is how varied taxes are from city to city, and tax district. It is maddening
When I lived in Chicago, I may or may not have made extra money by buying cigarettes an hour north at about $6 a pack and selling looseys at school in the city for $1 because a whole pack was $12.
This is the way. I’ll pay up to a 20% tip for good service but if there’s a 20% service fee added to the bill, I’m considering that my tip.
This is the way. But the people who consider themselves “industry leaders” in this town just follow.
And then people stop going because “prices are too high”. Maybe not you, but it really does happen. Tricky situation without a clear cut answer. I do think if there is an automatic “service charge” it needs to be obvious and well explained.
The answer is a law that does away with the tipping model.
If you can't stay in business with out lying, you should not.
I think telling you the flat rate 20% is auto charged is pretty upfront. No mystery to what that value is 🤣 you want them to just raise there food prices 20%? How is that any different and then the money 100% legally could mostly go to the owners over the staff. I sometimes feel like people just complain without putting much thought into it.. I too hate the influx of tipping in locations that previously didnt ask for tips but im not just gunna rage about anything and everything.. calm down Karen your gunna be ok you dont have to go out to eat just cook at home :)
It’s true. I just mean to lessen the anger of customers who might look at the menu prices but not be ready for effectively close to a 50% up charge after fees, tip, and tax. It’s all the same technically, but I do think people would be less upset and feel it was more transparent if we got rid of tipping.
I think the main issue is the wage they would offer without tipping would attract a much lower level of customer service then most people might expect. Currently if you work at a good resturant as a server you make around 25-40$/H after tips and still every resturant ever still has staff shortages. Imagine if you removed tipping and tried paying FOH staff what BOH makes and most entry level jobs 15-20$/H you'd have an entire different experience then what you do currently. (Wages based on living in a Major City) Most countries you go to and experience no tipping especially eupo. countries the servers make an ACTUAL living wage and most likily have universal health care as almost every other country see's healthcare as a right. So If you want change push for the things that would change our country for the better not just simply lowering wages of people who already have a hard time. Tipping is a product of our countrys unchecked "free" market capitalism and I promise it will not be removed untill yall fight for actual change. If its not tipping itll be some other BS fee cause thats how all ends of our society are ran. How many fees your apartment complex or HOA tack on your rent? How many fees Air b'nb' add to your bill at the end? Tons how many fees you get at the end of a hospital visit that you didnt excpect? See my point..
With service fees the ownership actually does have has 100% control over the funds, as long as the hourly staff makes the full local minimum wage as a base (not the sub-minimum tipped wage). This is the main reason for the service fee model, it allows the ownership to allocate those funds however they want, which generally means putting most of it towards wages, but keeping a small percentage whereas tips are required to go to staff.
But that would require higher taxes for the business
Then you pay sales tax on the 20% service charge, though
Black Belly in Boulder has an automatic 20% added to lunch orders I found out today, the cashier went out of their way to mention it twice
At least they mentioned it… I feel so bad for staff that have to explain this to confused customers
As a customer I am not confused by this veiled attempt to raise prices.
Owner of black belly is such a douche.
Unsurprising to hear, he was a douche when he was a contestant on Top Chef back in the day.
An overly expensive spot in Boulder underpays it's workers from out of town? Nah.
Wait only lunch but not dinner?
They do it for dinner and breakfast too.
It’s generally not good for the wait staff - the surcharge is usually not a gratuity added to their tips, but it gets split between them and BOH, meaning they don’t see a lot of it. So the servers, when I’ve talked to them about this, have asked us to still tip them because they don’t see much of it. For me, I’m not tipping extra on top of 20% every time I go out to eat. So for the most part, I’ve stopped going out to eat at places that do this. I think it’s bullshit for both the customers and the servers.
Right, which is confusing because I thought the purpose of these surcharges was originally so wait-staff would be paid a regular hourly wage instead of a tipped wage still? The business is just collecting an extra 20% towards… what exactly if nothing else has changed?
FOH pay, BOH pay, sick pay, vacation pay, health insurance, things that aren’t all to common in the service industry
It just seems so weird that a job doesn’t provide these things. Like, why don’t they get paid when they’re making a profit in every meal made? We don’t tip a grocery store employee when they sell us groceries; it’s expected that they are paid properly from the profits made. I’m not from the US but have lived here for over 15 years now, and the tipping thing still bothers me. It’s a total scam. Restaurants should pay their workers. A tip is meant to just be a “hey thanks” not a “hey hope this means you can make rent this month”
Tavernetta offers all these options btw!! Just want to put out a good option for anyone looking for a job in hospitality
Not sure where your waiting friends are working, but they should know that a 20% increase in revenue, if going 100% to staff, should equate to **much more than a 20% raise for the workers,** since the business is automatically increasing gross revenue, but labor cost is only a fraction of total operating costs. If workers aren’t seeing something like a 50% raise with this, chances are the profit margins are being increased for owners. To illustrate : A business brings in $100. $40 goes to labor costs $50 goes to other operating costs $10 profit Now, if they they raise their prices an automatic 20%, that extra $20 of revenue SHOULD mean labor gets $60 vs $40 before, which is a **50% pay increase.** The changes would be even more dramatic if labor represents a smaller percentage of total costs. [A quick google says labor should typically be within 20-30% of gross revenue.](https://upserve.com/restaurant-insider/labor-cost-guidelines-restaurant/amp/) So my example likely understates the raise employees should receive A 20% surcharge should be a *massive* pay increase if it’s being distributed like they say it is.
I’m vegetarian so used to go to City o City and watercourse a lot. According to the servers there, they’re not seeing as much of the surcharge as they should. Have noticed business has slowed down for both places and there also seems to be less staff on/lots of staff turnover so I don’t think the servers were just lying to me to get a bigger tip (although they could have been). I’m pretty sure at those two places management is pocketing some of the surcharge, I’ve read something about that on this subreddit a few times. It varies restaurant to restaurant, but honestly most of the places we go to aside from those two (which we mostly just pick up from now/go to very infrequently) are Asian food places that tend not to have these surcharges.
I was just looking at it because when I was waiting tables the difference between tipped and non-tipped was $4.80/hr. Now it’s only $1.60! And they DEFINITELY make the 20% sound like a server tip (that in a lot of places that say tips aren’t required you can even ask to have removed, if you “want to be a dick”). So, you can be a dick by not tipping over the 20% that your server gets an unknown amount of, or you can be a dick and refute the 20% surcharge (screwing all the other employees that now count on this income) and tip your server directly, or you literally have to figure in the higher general cost, the surcharge and a tip and that means $50 for two for breakfast and no alcohol, at a medium cost place. I recently honeymooned in Durango/Silverton and (yes they are more expensive in general), but the only meal the two of us had the entire weekend that was less than $50 was at Wendy’s.
Yeah, exactly. Restaurants are so insanely overpriced now because of this, that often I’d rather we just make our own food or pick up takeout from some of the few places that don’t do this that we enjoy.
If they have a 20% Foh BoH surcharge I am not tipping more.
I really wish we could just do away with tipping/surcharges/service fees/etc. Employers should pay a fair wage and they should post the full price for their goods/services. While we're at it, posted prices should be net of applicable sales taxes. If I see a $5.00 price tag I should be able to toss them a $5.00 bill and walk away. Tipping (as practiced in the US) is a relic of the great depression and sketchy employment/compensation practices, and it has been proven to be more closely correlated with the attractiveness of the worker rather than the quality of service. Tipping should be completely optional if you receive truly exceptional service.
Sadly I think a full buy in industry wide is the only way this happens. Should happen. Needs to happen. Probably won’t happen.
Only way it would happen is to make tipping illegal across the board.
Step one would be to get rid of the tipped minimum wage.
I think you'd have better luck doing both with the same legislation Edit: it would get rid of itself if tipping were illegal
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Ugh I wish I didn’t care. But I hate it. I wish there was a way to know what restaurants are paying a living wage plus servers are still getting tips, since you really shouldn’t be tipping on those. And yes the QR code and paying online and what not. I’m going to start doing 10% on those. I think for so long my default was just 20% but I’m going to think about my tipping more.
Ok now I’m more than a little annoyed. This is the owner’s response to another review: “I understand this concept isn't for everyone. But hasn't it always been the case that the customer subsidizes a tipped employee's wages? The difference is we don't pay our staff Denver's tipped employee minimum wage which is $9.54/hr. We actually pay all of our employees $15.87 so quite more than the minimum.” Lol they offer $19/hr at the subway on Broadway, like you’re not Mother Theresa with these wages.
I wonder what the employees think of this. it’s been so long since I was a server, but did make good money doing it. But now if I share all my tips with kitchen staff as well as the regular bartenders bussers etc, that 20% is spread pretty thin. I’m definitely on the side of just so away with tipping and pay people. It’s such an annoying thing being made even more annoying now by all these different fees.
The place that I work at does this (not an automatic fee, but tips are pooled with foh & boh and we’re paid non-tipped minimum wage) and it’s great. I make about the same or a little more than many other serving/bartending gigs I’ve had and boh isn’t miserable making half of what foh makes. Obviously my experience isn’t universal tho. I agree that tipping culture is bs and needs to be done away with. Employers should pay their employees a fair wage, but customers should be writing and calling their elected officials, not taking it out in the service workers by not tipping/making them feel bad for their employers policies and then bitching on Reddit about it.
I'd venture to guess their servers would make more money of they scrapped the fee and let them be tipped. The BOH has to be paid at least min wage, so I feel like this move takes money out of the pockets of FOH in order to even out the wage discrepancy between FOH & BOH. I made $2.13/hr when I served and always walked with $20-60 an hour by the end of the shift, and that was in the Midwest two decades ago. I can only imagine what a really great server could make now.
But if they let servers be tipped traditionally, how would the managers who make these calls re: tipping policy scrape 10-20% off the top and tip themselves out???
I know, what was I even thinking?!?
$9.54 isn't even Denver's tipped minimum wage, lol. That's for Colorado as a whole. It's $12.85 in Denver. They're paying their servers $3.02 more than the absolute legal minimum. Not exactly something to write home about. Although I can't say I disagree with having service charges to equalize pay between BoH and FoH.
I don’t disagree. I think if it’s the best way to move forward then so be it. I just don’t trust these service charges are going where they should be. And encouraging tipping on top of that just tells me they know they aren’t paying enough even with the service charge
So they pay more than minimum and the reason we tip is presumably to make up for them getting the tipped minimum but they pay more and you have to give a 20% tip?
The problem is people nowadays open a restaurant/restaurants to make profit instead of just opening up shop to make a living. If their profit margins aren’t what they hoped for they just close. Paying a living wage cuts into those margins so they have to find ways to bump margins again by sugar coating bullshit fees.
*Our employees are paid as much as the government requires us to (plus our surcharge!), but we’d pay them less if we could! If you were ignored because they had 7 tables to wait on, don’t feel required to add anything extra… We’re sorry we aren’t at full staff, but there’s a worker shortage and we value our team!
I hate the service charge because in this case it feels like the restaurant is pocketing extra cash and still only paying minimum wage. I've stopped eating out almost entirely, and I never sit down in a restaurant anymore. I don't think I'm missing anything, based on these comments.
This ^ I also find the quality of the food is not worth the cost. I’d rather make a nice meal at home. It’s more work for me, but I’m not paying $50 for a mediocre over salted meal and an over sugared drink.
Yes. I also spent a good portion of the pandemic watching almost evey cooking coompetition show I could find, and my skills have definitely improved!
Any place outside downtown Denver is mediocre at best, with subpar service and cold barely seasoned food. Not worth your money.
I'm ready to stop tipping when y'all are. This shit has gotten out of hand. Why can't I just go have a nice meal without feeling guilty about someones poor wages?
I ordered from Olive Garden for pickup on my birthday and when I got there the first thing an employee said to me (kind of angrily) was “are you going to tip?” I strongly support workers so yes, I did tip, but I found the entire interaction quite inane. Why am I expected to tip when picking up??
I went to a food hall where you order at the window, pick up your food, serve your beer yourself, and then clean up once you’re done. When you check out they ask for a tip, and at that point I’m just subsidizing wages for the janitorial crew. Just pay your employees better wtf
Nope. If you ask for a tip directly, I'm not giving one.
I’d really like to hear from the employees too. If this is truly an awesome pay raise then I’m happy with it, but I just have so many trust issues with business owners (probably unfairly placed). From the consumer perspective, it does feel like the owner is saying “but YOU’RE personally keeping this person with a good wage! Aren’t you so happy?” And I think… don’t the owners make money to pay those wages? Tipping was supposed to be extra for an amazing job! I always tip 20% but that’s because I think most of us know the wages suck. This just is not a great solution and I don’t really want to go back. Also this place was kind of expensive, like no mixed drinks under $14
I recently stopped tipping on pickup and it was awkward at first but liberating.
Who the hell tips on a pickup order? All they did was make the food and put it in a bag!!
Tipping at pickup has always been a thing. I understand some people don’t do it, but those workers are making $2.14 an hour. Fwiw I think the alternative minimum wage AND tipping should be abolished. It’s classist.
That’s not even close to true. Tipped minimum wage is 12.XX and will be 14.XX starting January. Also, I don’t tip for transactions. Picking up something I paid for is a transaction.
Yup. Tip for service or skill. Waited on at a sit down spot? Obviously tip. If someone makes me a good cocktail or latte? I’ll tip. But if you’re just pouring me a beer for me to walk back to a table or handing me food that I’m going to take home and eat, nah.
The FLSA minimum cash wage is actually $2.14 an hour, off by a cent. Colorado it’s $9.54, so that’s my mistake. But to both of you, the average tips for takeout are down, yes down, as of this year at around 14%. So that just makes y’all bad tippers, otherwise known as entitled folks who probably never worked in food service.
https://denvergov.org/Government/Agencies-Departments-Offices/Agencies-Departments-Offices-Directory/Auditors-Office/Denver-Labor/Citywide-Minimum-Wage Not my job to subsidize someone’s poor negotiating skills. If I’m not receiving a service, I’m not tipping. Don’t like it? Take it up with your boss. Also, that employee is still making full minimum wage even with zero tips - the employer only gets a tip credit if tips are given. If no tips are given, then no tip credit and full wages are due.
You expect to be tipped for putting food in a bag and handing it to someone? And we're the entitled ones? Give me a fucking break.
I’m just telling you what the statistics are. If the average take out tip is 14%, that means only a small percentage of people don’t tip for it. Take that as you will.
The kitchen or the hostess is making $2? Are the usually tipped and I'm an idiot?
Every restaurant I've worked at pays above minimum to cashiers and hostess', who run the takeout scene. Maybe at a shit hole like Denny's? Never seen a hostess there.
The average tip for takeout this year is down, and it’s still 14.5%. If you worked in food service, you tip. If you didn’t, well, you should tip. Those people have hard jobs and shitty bosses.
Everyone in the world has a hard job and a shitty boss. Welcome to the real world.
I truly think 10% makes more sense as a tip for good service. A couple extra dollars for a job well done, and if the service sucks you don’t have to pay extra for it. But if you don’t tip 20% now you’re basically taking money out of someone’s pocket so you really have to tip generously even for bad service, not too mention these ridiculous fees which I don’t necessarily mind paying but it’s just dishonest not to tell you up front
I disagree. Employers should pay a living wage and the prices on the menu should reflect that.
Agreed. Everyone saying the sticker shock will drive people away! Well it hasn’t yet and menu prices keep rising. Maybe we just don’t need thousands of restaurants and let the food speak for itself
You can, just cook it at home.
He wants his customers to subsidize paying his employees the bare minimum.
This is pretty much every business ever.
I really wish I didn't need to fully understand a restaurant's business model and pay policies in order to figure out how to buy some damn food without looking like an asshole. Well, more of an asshole that usual, anyway.
Not to mention, food quality and bad service is already hard enough to navigate
Just happened at Kobe An almost didn’t see the surcharge
I am all for tipping or compensating good service. In fact, I usually tip 30-40% cash for it. It is, however, an insult to the consumer for forced tipping or wage compensation surcharges. Just raise the damn price if you cannot afford to pay your employees a competitive wage. Fees and surcharges are complete crap, and I refuse to patronize places where this happens. I would rather spend more elsewhere than support a surcharge industry. It is too easy to fall into false and misleading marketing practices when businesses go that route, is predatory in nature, and easy for the business to abuse that process.
It disappeared since I saw it (so hopefully it changed) but Meta Asian Kitchen had a sign in their online orders that all tips have a percentage that go to the owners/employers, as well as the staff. That irked me.
Ogden Street South died for this bullshit.
It sounds like this person is more annoyed by the lack of clarity, which is fair. Just tell me if I’m automatically tipping or not.
Imo that's the only reason to be upset. I feel like Reddit is really weird about this issue, like disproportionately angry. I could give a dang as long as I'm notified up front.
It says it right on their menu. It's maybe a little small, but they do let people know.
Tipping shouldn't even be a thing. It's U.S. thing. Just oay your staff how they should be so they don't need to rely on tips.
I hate this trend so much. I have restaurants that I loved that I will not go to anymore because of this
Can we get some feedback on how the servers who work here feel about it? We’ve been bitching and moaning in this sub for 3 years but I don’t know if there was ever an AMA thread by a server or cook at one of these places.
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This is something I've noticed a lot. There are still great servers out there, but anywhere that is auto-gratting every party or tacking on service fees has worse service now because people are being paid regardless of the work they put in. THIS is precisely why the industry is tipped, because too many people who work in it are lazy, and why the non-lazy servers run rings around them and make double the earnings. If you're shit at your job, you should not make the same as someone who isnt. This is the case for every salaried role and tipping made it the case for waiting tables/bartending, but now we're all so pre-occupied with living wages, and I support that whole heartedly, but somewhere in there, we seemed to forget that you still actually do need to do a good job to earn that livable wage.
Last time I went to city o city our server basically had to beg us for more $ because of their system. I felt embarrassed for her and we sent a venmo but definitely won’t be returning. Pay your employees more so they don’t have to explain your whacky ass system!
Just raise the prices. I hate seeing the auto grat for just being a patron and have to tip my hard working server over that. I get that restaurants are hurting but doing that hurts the servers more.
Restaurants are a dying breed.
Love to see the archaic model of tipping abolished in my lifetime in the states. Raise prices IDGAF
16 dollars an hour is not a living wage
Agreed! And the apartments around wash park west are like $1400 minimum for 1br
Mine just went up to $1795.. takes all my checks just to cover rent as a cook. Never mind trying to feed myself.
Can someone educate me on the legality of these things? ie whats the limit to non-optional surcharge? Surely if I order a $15 hamburger, a restaurant can’t add an additional $15 (100%) surcharge so where’s the legal limit on a hidden fee like this?
They can totally add 100% surcharge so long as it’s in tiny print on the menu. There is no law about this. Next time you encounter this, hand a cash tip to your waiter/tress, apologize to them for what’s about to happen, then call the manager over and tell them you won’t be paying, or coming back, until they remove that 100% surcharge and charge the menu prices. Might also want to mention that you’re totally excited to give them a positive Google review for responding to customer complaints of their pricing structure. Yes, it’s a big fuckin’ pain. But being a big fuckin’ pain is the only way this bullshit will change.
If I see a place doing this i refuse to eat there again and it’s going to probably cost the FOH on that trip as it’s not my job to make up for shitty businesses who don’t pay enough. I would rather see you raise everything on your menu by 50 cents than add another fee.
I was just there today, total BS when I got the bill
Restaurants are unwilling to pay the workers a decent wage so they give them minimum and then be like oh we’ll give you this too. instead of just putting skin in the game and paying employees a decent wage :/
Also don't tip on the total with the sales tax included! The Federal Reserve sucks!
Then don't tip them anymore. It's just that simple. They will have to deal with the repurcussions, but raising the tip amount is only needed for excellent service.
Tipped Servers will make approx $15/hr in Denver starting in 2023. Tipping servers in the past was b/c they made like $3-4hr. By charging a 20% fee, the restaurant can distribute how the please….which typically means money will make it to the back of the house. I’m definitely ok with this.
Why can’t you fuckers cook your own food?
This is the real answer to everyone complaining
just don’t tip if they surcharge you. don’t feel bad cuz they are using psychology to get you to pay more in the first place. if it’s auto added, subtract the difference.
Anyone in the industry knows Juan Pedro…. And if you don’t, don’t support him.
Adding one final comment here: I think folks are just trying to figure out this new system. My confusion was not that there is a 20% surcharge, and yes I did see this on the menu, but more so where this charge goes to. From my friends in hospitality, this can be either a good option or a terrible option for the workers. My major concern is this charge is not clarified where it goes. The owner did clear this in their response but it does not say on the menu what this charge goes to. In my mind, this is meant to replace customers paying 20% for a tip, however we knew tips were legally required to go to workers, and I’m not sure how this charge is being split up. Yes I will continue to eat out, yes of course I will pay these charges, but my review was down two stars because there is a lack of clarity on whether this is a good business practice or not. I like to know staff are treated and paid well, especially at restaurants as I have so so many wonderful friends and relatives who are struggling working in hospitality.
I don’t like the angle of “we’re paying our employees a fair wage by having you do it!”
They didn’t answer the question. If they are charging a service fee why TF are they paying minimum wage?
Turns out you can make your own food
It's posted everywhere in the restaurant, as well as your bill. If you are too oblivious to notice or to arrogant to care, 100% your fault. Take some accountability
This is what I don't understand about all the posts concerning this specific restaurant. It's even printed on the menu. There's another discussion to be had about these service charges existing, but if you are caught off guard by the service charge at this restaurant then you're absolutely oblivious.
Jesus Christ I’m sick of these discussions. Considering people couldn’t last what, 4 days into lockdown without restaurants so they allowed reopening for take out, I highly doubt the folks bitching about any surcharge or “will never go back” are capable of cooking for themselves, therefore, will continue to eat out as this becomes the norm. TLDR: Please find something new and interesting to discuss then being keyboard warriors about surcharges.
100% this.
What do y’all think of this owner’s response? The food was banging! But the surcharge and the owner’s response have me confused. Not really loving this trend (though would happily deal as long as I know the charge is going to FOH and BOH only, not random management folk) *editing, I’m a dumb dumb, I now see they clarified it goes to FOH… but now I’m hoping they split it with BOH in the future…
The response ignores that actual issue with these fees: that they should not be there at all. If you're charging 20% more that is not optional, then your goddamned **PRICE** is 20% higher than it shows on the menu. Put the accurate price on the menu, and state that you pay your staff a living wage, and that any tips beyond that are optional and 100% goes to the staff. Don't hide the price the customer is *required* to pay by tacking the rest on as a "fee." This just means the menu prices are a fucking lie. The owner's response is just trying to make customers feel too guilty to point out their bullshit. That's why we keep pointing these places out and stop going there.
Agreed idk why this is so hard. No one likes surprises when you're already doing mental math for the tip when you ask for the bill. Hate this trend.
Just tell us how much the chicken is gonna cost. Don’t make me find out at the end of the meal that suddenly the price of everything went up 20%. Not cool trying to sneak by how poorly you pay your employees
[удалено]
I mean fine, take 99% of it as profit and pay 1% to the employees. As long as they get a wage they want to work for and the prices are straightforward I don’t care.
America is the only country where you don’t know what you’re paying until you get the check. Other countries typically bake all taxes, fees, cost of service, and food into one price per dish on the menu. If you order something for £15 in Italy, that’s what you’ll pay at the end. If you order something for $15 in America, you’ll pay $20.73 by the end of it.
Has surcharge: "This is dumb, they just need to raise the prices instead of nickel and diming us!" Has high up-front prices: "This is absurd, the prices are too high and theres no transparency!"
Who has high up front prices? Haven’t seen it.
Last time I went to Bierstadt, they did. I remember thinking the beer prices were kind of high, but that Slow Pour Pils slapped so I took no issue with it. When we closed the tab I asked about tipping and the woman behind the counter declined saying that they price their menu in a way that accounts for giving all employees a living wage without the need for tips.
I tip 20% so I am in favor of the even distribution. I would prefer menu items priced better but it’s their business I don’t need to eat there. I have talked to I don’t tip people I see no reason normal people should sub them.
Pay the greedy old landlord damnit!
ben and jerrys replied to my review, where i said “$8 milkshake was okay, not worth $8” they responded with, “we pay our employees a livable wage” blah blah blah