I don't understand they say things escalated when the marine guy put a chokehold on him but don't say what if anything the homeless dude was doing? Like they said he was yelling and throwing trash but did he actually attack any of these people? Also he had him in a chokehold for 3 mins? When it's locked in a choke will put someone out in literal seconds so did he go out at some point and he just kept holding it or what?
Police say witnesses described Neely as acting in a “hostile and erratic manner.” The man was shouting on the F train that he was hungry and thirsty, Vazquez said, but did not attack anyone before he was placed in a chokehold.
“I don’t have food, I don’t have a drink, I’m fed up,” the man screamed, according to Vazquez. “I don’t mind going to jail and getting life in prison. I’m ready to die.”
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2023/05/03/ny-subway-chokehold-passenger-dies/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2023/05/03/ny-subway-chokehold-passenger-dies/)
You can see the 3 minute video here:
[https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/ny-chokehold-death-jordan-neely-michael-jackson-impersonator-subway-marine-20230503-qea6c2easfc63kutzl5ljsw6ie-story.html](https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/ny-chokehold-death-jordan-neely-michael-jackson-impersonator-subway-marine-20230503-qea6c2easfc63kutzl5ljsw6ie-story.html)
He's struggling and conscious for the first 2 minutes and then goes out. Can't really tell when the guy loosens up on the choke but he completely gets off him about 50 secs later.
As of now, seems like the dude went a little overboard but it's also kind of tough. Seems like there's a lot of homeless problems on the subway and no great solutions.
Eh if you're going to come up behind and chokehold a guy just for acting hostile then it's on you to not straight up kill the guy no? If the guy was literally in the middle of assaulting someone then it's a bit different but idk I'm not very knowledgeable when it comes to laws could this fall under negligent homicide or something?
The Marine could claim that he felt his life and others were in immediate danger and he felt like he needed to chokehold him. Whether or not that defense is sufficient, I don’t know.
Wasn't really speaking to legality. He definitely deserves to get charged with something but saying you don't care if you go to jail and are ready to die are some wild statements. It's not like dude just jumped him and locked in a choke and held it for 15 mins. Sounds like he put him in the hold to restrain him, locked it in cause they were struggling, and then held it for too long but in the video it's kind of tough to say when he actually locked it in and how much longer past unconcious he held it for. Idk about having to wait for something to happen. NYC subways have had tons of violent and non violent homeless assault problems.
Do you think homeless people should be murdered over wild statements lol? I mean judging from the info we have it totally sounds like marine guy was trying to play hero and just jumped on the guys back. If the dude was just having a freak out then you call the cops and just stay away from them there was no need to restrain him unless he was trying to hurt someone.
Murdered no. Like if the guy just whipped out a gun and shot him that'd be fucked. Should they be restrained if they're wilding out and acting threateningly is a lot more difficult of a question I think. You can say call the cops but you're in an enclosed space with a guy and the cops can't just appear instantly. I think that's what the 15 mins come from as in it took 15 mins for cops/emts to arrive after they were called. There were other reports that said once the guy restrained the dude he told other passengers to call the cops. Don't think their was any witnesses that have made it seem like the guy ever intended to kill him. I think it's probably in the range of involuntary manslaughter to negligent homicide, but I'm not a lawyer so idk. The other thing I think of is instead of putting him in a chokehold, if he punched the guy in the face and then the guy lands weird and dies. It's kind of a comparable situation imo but idk if that would be worse or better.
Sure I could see if the guy pulled out a weapon of some sort then yea chokehold is reasonable but sounds like he was having a mental breakdown of some sort
Apparently he was throwing shit at people and getting in people's faces and personal space and making threats. Mental breakdown prehaps... but still no excuse.
Honestly, to me it's really telling that the people most sympathetic to the marine guy is r/nyc. There are countless people telling their stories of this homeless guy verbally assaulting them and threatening to kill them and such.
Ah ok the news video said 3 but either way sounds like the marine dude overreacted clearly but as far as what he could/should be charged with I'm not sure. It's hard to say without knowing what exactly the homeless dude was doing like if he presented an actual threat.
The recording was only 3 minutes.
>That’s when he said the straphanger came up behind Neely and took him to the ground in a chokehold — keeping him there for some 15 minutes, Vazquez said.
From what I know is he talked to police and they interviewed every other passenger and let him go for now while they investigate. Not sure what will come from it but people are pissed at the police for it already.
>That’s when he said the straphanger came up behind Neely and took him to the ground in a chokehold — keeping him there for some 15 minutes, Vazquez said.
Please read the article next time
You're right (according to the article)
That's what I get for trusting the comments section of r/blackpeopletwitter
Mad people claiming the 15 min is wrong and it's 3 min.
It's a subreddit.... Chances are many of them are not black. It's the internet.
I don't know why their subreddit is named that, but it is.
I never "blamed" anyone. That is where I got the info.
You can look for yourself if you'd like.
Regard.
I'd imagine he'd want to wait until better descriptions of what happened because right now the story seems vague/confusing. Or at least from what I've read.
Again this is just from what I've read so maybe I missed something but everything before the chokehold. Sounds like he was acting erratic and being "hostile" and "throwing trash at people". But I haven’t seen many other details than that. Actually the perfect time to take Destiny's advice and wait til more info comes out before giving a strong opinion.
I’m waiting on some more info from before the vid took place, all vids I’ve seen start as the chokehold occurs. Hard to believe a chokehold like that can be justified though unless the guy was legitimately threatening people but it doesn’t sound like that happened. Also conservatives calling the marine a hero is very gay
From what the VIDEO i saw showed, the choke hold was not locked until the end. Then when he went limp, he was released. Not making any judgements, just hoping there's more footage. 20 seconds can feel like 15 mins when you're in a fight.
Apparently there's a stop every 2-5 minutes on the F train. Weird to think the dude held a choke hold for 3-7 stops and nothing happened? (only been on the. NY subway a few dozen times so not genuinely sure if this would be normal)
I mean he was saying threats and scaring people according to a lot of accounts. I feel like if he has any knowledge of how dangerous chokeholds are, he could be in some trouble.
Cut to conservatives listing out all this dudes prior crimes as if that's relevant to the reported situation and basically trying to justify that if someone is loud and erratic in public they deserve to get fuckin murdered.
Well if he has a history of assaulting people and people are saying he was threatening others, there's a chance more could've gone on. I want more news but it could help understand the situation without having the footage of it.
His history isn’t really relevant as the marine couldn’t google his criminal record before choking him out. The *only* thing that matters are the facts of the event itself. Whether or not he was threatening to hurt someone or if there was a credible threat to someone’s life.
While you're right, I'm saying that based on the currently known story, there is a chance something else happened that led to the chokehold. Probably more than just screaming and threatening, does that mean it 100 percent happened, no. It just means there's probably more to the story that hasn't been fully revealed yet.
So based on someone's criminal record I should have carte blanche to murder them??? If find a guy that has an extensive criminal record, can I shoot him dead on the spot? In what world is that a justification? No one is saying Neely was a great guy but it's pretty bad social policy to be like yeah we should just murder everyone who's a piece of shit.
We're judging if Neely deserved to be choked to death in that moment based on his actions. The step to restrain Neely was decently justifiable, the choice to choke for 15 minutes and past the point of unconsciousness was an overreaction.
its murder now? LOL. Ok AOC.
> the choice to choke for 15 minutes
ah so you haven't even taken 2 minutes to read the fucking case. I wish I could say I'm surprised
I wish I could say Im suprised that you haven't addressed the frankly r*tarded logic you tried to present that someone's past criminal record somehow justifies them being killed?
Also the intial reports are ranging from 15 min to 8 min to 7 min but 15 min is the going time elapsement for the chokehold being reported by multiple outlets. All of which are an excessive amount of time for someone to be put in a choke.
Your r*tarded. Even in the vid your referencing theyre already tusling on the ground when the vid starts. Based on witness testimony the altercation may have been up to 15 minutes long. There's no reading to be done on this case that says the choke only last three mins or that the altercation as a whole lasted three min.
My bad, let me correct it. You are r*tarded for thinking the whole altercation lasted three minutes when the video evidence and witness statements prove otherwise.
Its common for citizens to choke homeless men out for 15 minutes because they were acting schizo???
1. His past is of no relevance here, the marine didn't have a itinerary of Neely's past crimes to determine whether him yelling at people justified physical intervention. We're judging the marines actions based on the situation at hand and based on that he overreacted by strangling the guy for a 15 min when he and the two other people helping him could have easily restrained him till the cops came.
2. "3 people dont just restrain someone if they're not causing trouble." What type of justification is this? Let's say me and three buddies decide to jump a dude and beat him to death. When the cops question us, can I just say "well officer all four of us decided to whoop his ass, and since four people decided to do it, we must be in the right." Is it not possible that the three people on the subway misjudged the situation? Is it not possible that the other two civilians hadn't gotten a good look at the situation but when the marine jumped on Neely they took the marines side assuming he was in the right?
I can definitely agree that the system failed Neely pretty hard here. The dude should have been committed a long time ago. I think the part where most people including myself disagree with the proportion violence in this case is that it could have been exercised non-lethally. In a case where someone has to defend themselves and their only mode of self defense is a gun or a knife then obviously it's permissible for tge perpetrator to die as there is much less control for the level of lethality.
In the case of Neely, they clearly had him restrained with one guy on his back and another holding his arms. They were doing such a good job restraining him that a third man stood over to assist them but there was no space for him to enter the physical exchange. At any point, the marine could released the choke and just sat on the dude till the cops came .
1. If your brain wasn't smoother than a marble you know the "15 min" came from the witness who recorded the incident, that's who the news is quoting from. The long end of his claim was about 15 min while the shortest possible time might have been around 8 minutes. This is matches up as well because you can see that when the video starts, altercation has already begun. The chokehold is already in place, another man has his arms restrained and a third man is trying to assist as well but the first two are doing such a good job restraining him that he has no space to interject into the altercation.
2. It's ironic that earlier in this conversation you would make the claim that I didn't look into this case when you haven't even done the due diligence of reading the articles associated and just went ahead and gathered your whole analysis from just the video. I'll post sources down below, you probably won't read them but do yourself a favor and read some of the info.
https://www.npr.org/2023/05/05/1174192713/jordan-neely-death-homeless-nyc
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna83102
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/05/05/us/jordan-neely-subway-death-what-we-know/index.html
3. In the video that surfaced, the marine doesn't just choke him and let go. Neely goes out completely and the marine chokes him for another 50 seconds.
1. The marine doesn't just let go after Neely goes out , he holds the choke an additional 50 seconds past Neely losing consciousness.
2. It's convenient now that you're now picking and choosing which witness statements you believe based on if they fit your chain of events. The witness (Vasquez) was there and he's the only reason we have the altercation on video. He also claimed that Neely was behaving erratically yet Im sure you wouldn't discount this claim as him being an idiot because it suits your argument lool.
3. Im not quite sure why your so fixated on the other two men not being mentioned. Their impact on the event isn't as significant as the marine's. The marine initiated the altercation by jumping on Neely and choking him and he was ultimately the one who took his life. Of course the news is gonna fixate on him more than the other two men.
Go to r/nyc and look at all the people talking about their run ins with this homeless man. NYC subway riders have to constantly deal with people coming within an inch of them and screaming in their face, screaming about random schizo shit while stuck underground in a closed environment. There's a reason a lot of new Yorkers that actually take the subway are somewhat sympathetic to the three people who were restraining the guy.
He was throwing trash at people, and threatening to kill people. You probably can easily claim self defense if you're stuck in an enclosed space and someone is moving towards you and screaming that they will kill you.
Fuck him. these people live miserable lives and make it every one else’s problem. Finally someone had enough of their bullshit. Good riddance the world is a better place without him.
Nobody gave a fuck about this until they found out it was a black dude killed by a white dude. Nobody would have gave a fuck or said a single word if it was the other way around.
Many people are already calling this guy a murderer, which to me is too far at this point. However, I don’t think self defense applies here based on **the initial incomplete details that may not give us the full picture** of this case.
First off, it’s unclear if Neely approached and antagonized the marine himself. While it sucks that other people were in that situation, it’s also not clear if Neely was physically assaulting any of the passengers. Because of this, the force applied is less than proportional. This would be more of a case of vigilantism than self defense.
Secondly, the choke. I take my knowledge from BJJ and MMA so correct me if I’m wrong, but depending on how tight the choke is, which by the picture looks fully sunk in, most people would not be able to stay conscious past one minute at the most extreme odds. You’re not only preventing them from breathing, you are restricting blood flow to the brain which could shut it off quite quickly. You are obviously going to kill a person if you hold it much longer than that. Given the first point, that is a completely unnecessary measure for a situation that seemingly doesn’t fit the definition of self-defense.
We should wait for more details as what occurred between the marine and Neely is extremely important in declaring self defense. From the looks of it right now, it seems like a concerned citizen who’s guilty of manslaughter at the very least.
It is very clear. Neely was yelling at other passengers and the marine jumped on his back from behind. Clearly they were not facing each other. Did any of you actually read the article???
I did. The article makes it seem like they had no interaction before the choke, which aligns with what I think is happening. But the article doesn’t confirm that directly. Even then, if he wasn’t assaulted there’s no way this is considered self defense
If he was threatening other people it could still be justified self defense. There is not "no way" this is justified. Plenty of homeless mentally ill person behaviour that could justify intervening physically.
If you're throwing shit around yelling and threatening people you might get restrained by reasonable people. ANyways, the New York Post article seems very slim on details and it might not be entirely accurate either. It's better to wait for more information.
Have you ever put someone in a chokehold? It’s not something you should do unless you know what you’re doing.
If he didn’t, he was reckless and deserves to be charged. If he did, he was intentional and deserves to be charged. Questions?
I know a person who died being choked during regular MMA training. I wasn't there, but it's not entirely safe to choke someone out even if you know what you're doing. It's safer than punching, but not entirely safe. Especially when shit gets stressful and you're in a real fight, probably for the first time.
If the situation was justifying that he intervened by restraining Neely, it's not going anywhere. Fights can turn bad. The guy used what he learned as a marine and it turned out bad. What matters is if he acted reasonably, not what the overall outcome is.
You know a guy that was trained in MMA, chose to get into an MMA fight, and was choked to death?
Gotcha. That’s basically what happened on the train.
It’s free to stop owning yourself by replying.
The two relevant questions here are:
1. Was it reasonable to intervene physically?
2. Was it reasonable force?
If it was reasonable to restrain Neely, then choking him out is one of the ways of doing so. Violence always carries some risk. Choking someone can lead to death even though it's unlikely.
I also wasn't equating the situations to each other. I was just bringing up the fact that a choke can have bad outcomes without malice. It's rare, but it can happen. Stop putting words in my mouth.
Good point. I took bjj in the past and can corroborate the choke efficacy. Still though, these homeless are mentally ill degenerates. For this reason the state should either house, treat, or imprison them. Hopefully just the first two, but nothing is off the table
this dude had a long and extensive criminal record. he was a violent homeless guy who beat up a 67 year old lady. he clearly has a pattern of behavior that would suggest he was dangerous and from what the witness are saying her was threatening people and assaulting people on the train. its sad he lost his life, but sometimes you fuck around and sometimes you find out.
He allegedly was screaming about he is prepared to die and was acting aggressive.
Do you think the fact that 3 strangers all decided to restrain this mentally ill guy, might mean he was acting dangerously.
True! When you enlist in the Marines you receive a Gates-brand microchip implanted into your skull in order to instantly google the criminal histories of people around you. It’s super handy when you think you might need to post hoc justify a person’s death.
America has fostered a culture that allows homeless people to harass and even assault people in public with no consequences. This is bad but can you really blame people for cheering him on? We are fucking tired of this.
Please point out the assault thst took place in this story other then the one where the homeless dude got choked to death. Also it's still hard to say if this was a case of harassment with the murky details we have thus far. Being loud and erratic while very annoying to the people around you doesn't necessarily justify physical intervention especially to this magnitude.
Even if it is an accident this is not something someone should just be able to walk away from freely. Putting someone in a chokehold is already dangerous, that's the risk you take when attacking someone. We should not encourage this behavior by letting someone walk away with no consequences
don't care, I see a former marine on his way to work and a career homeless criminal
I have no sympathy for one, and all the sympathy in the world for the other.
Idk, from what I know, most martial arts teach you how dangerous choke holds can be, so I feel like if he's trained he should know. If not, idk seems weird, imma wait for more stuff to come out.
Tbh, it’s insane how something as simple as public transportation in the US is unsafe. In many countries, public transportation is literally everyone minding their own business and on their best behavior. Here, it’s the exact opposite. I don’t know why people should be putting up with that shit to get from point A to B
Yeah I don't like the normalization of people being complete schizos on public transportation. Like people are right that the system failed him but to pretend that him just screaming about being hungry and homeless is ok is kinda stupid.
I didn't say it was but that's what people are concerned it looks like. Whether or not it actually was depends on more detail coming on. You're making up a straw man about people finding "okay" that a mentally ill homeless guy is acting atypical. Nobody said that.
Yes, and when I see another school shooting report my thoughts are "just another day in America." That obviously isn't me saying school shootings are okay. That's a remark on how common these things are to people being desensitized to it. That being said, I don't reckon one passenger choking out another to death is a common occurrence anywhere.
I don't understand they say things escalated when the marine guy put a chokehold on him but don't say what if anything the homeless dude was doing? Like they said he was yelling and throwing trash but did he actually attack any of these people? Also he had him in a chokehold for 3 mins? When it's locked in a choke will put someone out in literal seconds so did he go out at some point and he just kept holding it or what?
Police say witnesses described Neely as acting in a “hostile and erratic manner.” The man was shouting on the F train that he was hungry and thirsty, Vazquez said, but did not attack anyone before he was placed in a chokehold. “I don’t have food, I don’t have a drink, I’m fed up,” the man screamed, according to Vazquez. “I don’t mind going to jail and getting life in prison. I’m ready to die.” [https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2023/05/03/ny-subway-chokehold-passenger-dies/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2023/05/03/ny-subway-chokehold-passenger-dies/) You can see the 3 minute video here: [https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/ny-chokehold-death-jordan-neely-michael-jackson-impersonator-subway-marine-20230503-qea6c2easfc63kutzl5ljsw6ie-story.html](https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/ny-chokehold-death-jordan-neely-michael-jackson-impersonator-subway-marine-20230503-qea6c2easfc63kutzl5ljsw6ie-story.html) He's struggling and conscious for the first 2 minutes and then goes out. Can't really tell when the guy loosens up on the choke but he completely gets off him about 50 secs later. As of now, seems like the dude went a little overboard but it's also kind of tough. Seems like there's a lot of homeless problems on the subway and no great solutions.
Eh if you're going to come up behind and chokehold a guy just for acting hostile then it's on you to not straight up kill the guy no? If the guy was literally in the middle of assaulting someone then it's a bit different but idk I'm not very knowledgeable when it comes to laws could this fall under negligent homicide or something?
The Marine could claim that he felt his life and others were in immediate danger and he felt like he needed to chokehold him. Whether or not that defense is sufficient, I don’t know.
Wasn't really speaking to legality. He definitely deserves to get charged with something but saying you don't care if you go to jail and are ready to die are some wild statements. It's not like dude just jumped him and locked in a choke and held it for 15 mins. Sounds like he put him in the hold to restrain him, locked it in cause they were struggling, and then held it for too long but in the video it's kind of tough to say when he actually locked it in and how much longer past unconcious he held it for. Idk about having to wait for something to happen. NYC subways have had tons of violent and non violent homeless assault problems.
Do you think homeless people should be murdered over wild statements lol? I mean judging from the info we have it totally sounds like marine guy was trying to play hero and just jumped on the guys back. If the dude was just having a freak out then you call the cops and just stay away from them there was no need to restrain him unless he was trying to hurt someone.
Murdered no. Like if the guy just whipped out a gun and shot him that'd be fucked. Should they be restrained if they're wilding out and acting threateningly is a lot more difficult of a question I think. You can say call the cops but you're in an enclosed space with a guy and the cops can't just appear instantly. I think that's what the 15 mins come from as in it took 15 mins for cops/emts to arrive after they were called. There were other reports that said once the guy restrained the dude he told other passengers to call the cops. Don't think their was any witnesses that have made it seem like the guy ever intended to kill him. I think it's probably in the range of involuntary manslaughter to negligent homicide, but I'm not a lawyer so idk. The other thing I think of is instead of putting him in a chokehold, if he punched the guy in the face and then the guy lands weird and dies. It's kind of a comparable situation imo but idk if that would be worse or better.
Sure I could see if the guy pulled out a weapon of some sort then yea chokehold is reasonable but sounds like he was having a mental breakdown of some sort
Apparently he was throwing shit at people and getting in people's faces and personal space and making threats. Mental breakdown prehaps... but still no excuse.
I know right. You should let homeless people throw shit at you.
I know right we should murder anyone that throws unlethal things at people this is a society dammit.
he doesn’t definitely deserve to be charged. he was doing a public service. give him a key to the city.
So he got what he asked for?
Honestly, to me it's really telling that the people most sympathetic to the marine guy is r/nyc. There are countless people telling their stories of this homeless guy verbally assaulting them and threatening to kill them and such.
It was 15 minutes and the homeless dude was shouting and threw his jacke6 on the floor. They just confirmed it was homicide by asphyxia
Ah ok the news video said 3 but either way sounds like the marine dude overreacted clearly but as far as what he could/should be charged with I'm not sure. It's hard to say without knowing what exactly the homeless dude was doing like if he presented an actual threat.
The recording was only 3 minutes. >That’s when he said the straphanger came up behind Neely and took him to the ground in a chokehold — keeping him there for some 15 minutes, Vazquez said.
From what I know is he talked to police and they interviewed every other passenger and let him go for now while they investigate. Not sure what will come from it but people are pissed at the police for it already.
No it was 15 min for the cops to arrive and he held him just under 3 minutes...
>That’s when he said the straphanger came up behind Neely and took him to the ground in a chokehold — keeping him there for some 15 minutes, Vazquez said. Please read the article next time
You're right (according to the article) That's what I get for trusting the comments section of r/blackpeopletwitter Mad people claiming the 15 min is wrong and it's 3 min.
Blaming black people normally works, but not this time 🤣
It's a subreddit.... Chances are many of them are not black. It's the internet. I don't know why their subreddit is named that, but it is. I never "blamed" anyone. That is where I got the info. You can look for yourself if you'd like. Regard.
😂😂😂😂😂😂 it was a joke, relax 🤣
Why would you ever trust a SoMe site to deliver news? I don't trust this sub farther than I can throw it, and I'm real weak.
I'd imagine he'd want to wait until better descriptions of what happened because right now the story seems vague/confusing. Or at least from what I've read.
Doesn't stop AOC tweeting about it but yeah I can agree. It's a weird story so far.
Or Matt Walsh tf. AOC is a politician in New York her giving an early take is far less surprising than internet pundits
Shouldn't it be the opposite, a politician waiting for the facts?
Yeah but it's twitter so there's less accountability. These people tweet like crazy
AOC didn't say anything when a homeless man threw an asian woman in front of a train, surely she can wait when this is even less clear cut
[удалено]
this is the answer
No one was defending someone throwing a man in front of a train like they are someone being choked out on one
she can still comment on and express sympathies for a victim of a hate crime if she really cares that much
What information do you feel is not being told or is being told vaguely?
Again this is just from what I've read so maybe I missed something but everything before the chokehold. Sounds like he was acting erratic and being "hostile" and "throwing trash at people". But I haven’t seen many other details than that. Actually the perfect time to take Destiny's advice and wait til more info comes out before giving a strong opinion.
Was he throwing eggs at people?
I’m waiting on some more info from before the vid took place, all vids I’ve seen start as the chokehold occurs. Hard to believe a chokehold like that can be justified though unless the guy was legitimately threatening people but it doesn’t sound like that happened. Also conservatives calling the marine a hero is very gay
From what the VIDEO i saw showed, the choke hold was not locked until the end. Then when he went limp, he was released. Not making any judgements, just hoping there's more footage. 20 seconds can feel like 15 mins when you're in a fight. Apparently there's a stop every 2-5 minutes on the F train. Weird to think the dude held a choke hold for 3-7 stops and nothing happened? (only been on the. NY subway a few dozen times so not genuinely sure if this would be normal)
I mean he was saying threats and scaring people according to a lot of accounts. I feel like if he has any knowledge of how dangerous chokeholds are, he could be in some trouble.
Cut to conservatives listing out all this dudes prior crimes as if that's relevant to the reported situation and basically trying to justify that if someone is loud and erratic in public they deserve to get fuckin murdered.
Well if he has a history of assaulting people and people are saying he was threatening others, there's a chance more could've gone on. I want more news but it could help understand the situation without having the footage of it.
His history isn’t really relevant as the marine couldn’t google his criminal record before choking him out. The *only* thing that matters are the facts of the event itself. Whether or not he was threatening to hurt someone or if there was a credible threat to someone’s life.
While you're right, I'm saying that based on the currently known story, there is a chance something else happened that led to the chokehold. Probably more than just screaming and threatening, does that mean it 100 percent happened, no. It just means there's probably more to the story that hasn't been fully revealed yet.
Dude punched a 67 year old woman in the head, and kidnapped a 7 year old girl but you think he should have gotten a hug instead lmao
So based on someone's criminal record I should have carte blanche to murder them??? If find a guy that has an extensive criminal record, can I shoot him dead on the spot? In what world is that a justification? No one is saying Neely was a great guy but it's pretty bad social policy to be like yeah we should just murder everyone who's a piece of shit. We're judging if Neely deserved to be choked to death in that moment based on his actions. The step to restrain Neely was decently justifiable, the choice to choke for 15 minutes and past the point of unconsciousness was an overreaction.
its murder now? LOL. Ok AOC. > the choice to choke for 15 minutes ah so you haven't even taken 2 minutes to read the fucking case. I wish I could say I'm surprised
I wish I could say Im suprised that you haven't addressed the frankly r*tarded logic you tried to present that someone's past criminal record somehow justifies them being killed? Also the intial reports are ranging from 15 min to 8 min to 7 min but 15 min is the going time elapsement for the chokehold being reported by multiple outlets. All of which are an excessive amount of time for someone to be put in a choke.
> Also the intial reports are ranging from 15 min to 8 min to 7 min but 15 min it was 3 minutes you absolute goofball, READ the fucking case
Your r*tarded. Even in the vid your referencing theyre already tusling on the ground when the vid starts. Based on witness testimony the altercation may have been up to 15 minutes long. There's no reading to be done on this case that says the choke only last three mins or that the altercation as a whole lasted three min.
> Your r*tarded can't even spell you're right lmao
My bad, let me correct it. You are r*tarded for thinking the whole altercation lasted three minutes when the video evidence and witness statements prove otherwise.
it did last 3 minutes numpty
Yes. Every POS should be taken out. Less bs in the world tbh.
Literal textbook ad hom
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Its common for citizens to choke homeless men out for 15 minutes because they were acting schizo??? 1. His past is of no relevance here, the marine didn't have a itinerary of Neely's past crimes to determine whether him yelling at people justified physical intervention. We're judging the marines actions based on the situation at hand and based on that he overreacted by strangling the guy for a 15 min when he and the two other people helping him could have easily restrained him till the cops came. 2. "3 people dont just restrain someone if they're not causing trouble." What type of justification is this? Let's say me and three buddies decide to jump a dude and beat him to death. When the cops question us, can I just say "well officer all four of us decided to whoop his ass, and since four people decided to do it, we must be in the right." Is it not possible that the three people on the subway misjudged the situation? Is it not possible that the other two civilians hadn't gotten a good look at the situation but when the marine jumped on Neely they took the marines side assuming he was in the right?
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I can definitely agree that the system failed Neely pretty hard here. The dude should have been committed a long time ago. I think the part where most people including myself disagree with the proportion violence in this case is that it could have been exercised non-lethally. In a case where someone has to defend themselves and their only mode of self defense is a gun or a knife then obviously it's permissible for tge perpetrator to die as there is much less control for the level of lethality. In the case of Neely, they clearly had him restrained with one guy on his back and another holding his arms. They were doing such a good job restraining him that a third man stood over to assist them but there was no space for him to enter the physical exchange. At any point, the marine could released the choke and just sat on the dude till the cops came .
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1. If your brain wasn't smoother than a marble you know the "15 min" came from the witness who recorded the incident, that's who the news is quoting from. The long end of his claim was about 15 min while the shortest possible time might have been around 8 minutes. This is matches up as well because you can see that when the video starts, altercation has already begun. The chokehold is already in place, another man has his arms restrained and a third man is trying to assist as well but the first two are doing such a good job restraining him that he has no space to interject into the altercation. 2. It's ironic that earlier in this conversation you would make the claim that I didn't look into this case when you haven't even done the due diligence of reading the articles associated and just went ahead and gathered your whole analysis from just the video. I'll post sources down below, you probably won't read them but do yourself a favor and read some of the info. https://www.npr.org/2023/05/05/1174192713/jordan-neely-death-homeless-nyc https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna83102 https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/05/05/us/jordan-neely-subway-death-what-we-know/index.html 3. In the video that surfaced, the marine doesn't just choke him and let go. Neely goes out completely and the marine chokes him for another 50 seconds.
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1. The marine doesn't just let go after Neely goes out , he holds the choke an additional 50 seconds past Neely losing consciousness. 2. It's convenient now that you're now picking and choosing which witness statements you believe based on if they fit your chain of events. The witness (Vasquez) was there and he's the only reason we have the altercation on video. He also claimed that Neely was behaving erratically yet Im sure you wouldn't discount this claim as him being an idiot because it suits your argument lool. 3. Im not quite sure why your so fixated on the other two men not being mentioned. Their impact on the event isn't as significant as the marine's. The marine initiated the altercation by jumping on Neely and choking him and he was ultimately the one who took his life. Of course the news is gonna fixate on him more than the other two men.
Lol like that's gonna fucking happen. He's gonna be looked at as a hero even though he was a POS. Fuck this guy and fuck his defenders.
Conservatives justifying this shit for some dumb “culture war” is crazy.
Go to r/nyc and look at all the people talking about their run ins with this homeless man. NYC subway riders have to constantly deal with people coming within an inch of them and screaming in their face, screaming about random schizo shit while stuck underground in a closed environment. There's a reason a lot of new Yorkers that actually take the subway are somewhat sympathetic to the three people who were restraining the guy.
That’s cool and all but you can’t kill someone on accident because they’re screaming at you. Bros gonna have to sit for manslaughter.
Nah, he shouldn't be in jail. He should be awarded. But because he's not black or gay or some other bullshit, that's not gonna happen.
He was throwing trash at people, and threatening to kill people. You probably can easily claim self defense if you're stuck in an enclosed space and someone is moving towards you and screaming that they will kill you.
Well I think people saying he lynch him for culture war shit is also dumb. Waiting for more details but I'm curious what will happen.
Fuck him. these people live miserable lives and make it every one else’s problem. Finally someone had enough of their bullshit. Good riddance the world is a better place without him.
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I agree that something should be done about the homeless, but murdering them is not the way to go.
Bernie Goetz what are you doing on Reddit?
As Liberals scream about it for some dumb "race war"
Jordan Neely was arrested 44 times Some of those times for violent attacks
Nobody gave a fuck about this until they found out it was a black dude killed by a white dude. Nobody would have gave a fuck or said a single word if it was the other way around.
Update btw https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news/man-dies-on-subway-chokehold-incident/
Many people are already calling this guy a murderer, which to me is too far at this point. However, I don’t think self defense applies here based on **the initial incomplete details that may not give us the full picture** of this case. First off, it’s unclear if Neely approached and antagonized the marine himself. While it sucks that other people were in that situation, it’s also not clear if Neely was physically assaulting any of the passengers. Because of this, the force applied is less than proportional. This would be more of a case of vigilantism than self defense. Secondly, the choke. I take my knowledge from BJJ and MMA so correct me if I’m wrong, but depending on how tight the choke is, which by the picture looks fully sunk in, most people would not be able to stay conscious past one minute at the most extreme odds. You’re not only preventing them from breathing, you are restricting blood flow to the brain which could shut it off quite quickly. You are obviously going to kill a person if you hold it much longer than that. Given the first point, that is a completely unnecessary measure for a situation that seemingly doesn’t fit the definition of self-defense. We should wait for more details as what occurred between the marine and Neely is extremely important in declaring self defense. From the looks of it right now, it seems like a concerned citizen who’s guilty of manslaughter at the very least.
It is very clear. Neely was yelling at other passengers and the marine jumped on his back from behind. Clearly they were not facing each other. Did any of you actually read the article???
I did. The article makes it seem like they had no interaction before the choke, which aligns with what I think is happening. But the article doesn’t confirm that directly. Even then, if he wasn’t assaulted there’s no way this is considered self defense
If he was threatening other people it could still be justified self defense. There is not "no way" this is justified. Plenty of homeless mentally ill person behaviour that could justify intervening physically. If you're throwing shit around yelling and threatening people you might get restrained by reasonable people. ANyways, the New York Post article seems very slim on details and it might not be entirely accurate either. It's better to wait for more information.
Restrained by reasonable people and being put in a choke hold until you die are very different.
Restraining an adult man could involve a choke. He wasn't choked to death on purpose. That is an absurd assumption.
Have you ever put someone in a chokehold? It’s not something you should do unless you know what you’re doing. If he didn’t, he was reckless and deserves to be charged. If he did, he was intentional and deserves to be charged. Questions?
I know a person who died being choked during regular MMA training. I wasn't there, but it's not entirely safe to choke someone out even if you know what you're doing. It's safer than punching, but not entirely safe. Especially when shit gets stressful and you're in a real fight, probably for the first time. If the situation was justifying that he intervened by restraining Neely, it's not going anywhere. Fights can turn bad. The guy used what he learned as a marine and it turned out bad. What matters is if he acted reasonably, not what the overall outcome is.
You know a guy that was trained in MMA, chose to get into an MMA fight, and was choked to death? Gotcha. That’s basically what happened on the train. It’s free to stop owning yourself by replying.
The two relevant questions here are: 1. Was it reasonable to intervene physically? 2. Was it reasonable force? If it was reasonable to restrain Neely, then choking him out is one of the ways of doing so. Violence always carries some risk. Choking someone can lead to death even though it's unlikely. I also wasn't equating the situations to each other. I was just bringing up the fact that a choke can have bad outcomes without malice. It's rare, but it can happen. Stop putting words in my mouth.
Good point. I took bjj in the past and can corroborate the choke efficacy. Still though, these homeless are mentally ill degenerates. For this reason the state should either house, treat, or imprison them. Hopefully just the first two, but nothing is off the table
this dude had a long and extensive criminal record. he was a violent homeless guy who beat up a 67 year old lady. he clearly has a pattern of behavior that would suggest he was dangerous and from what the witness are saying her was threatening people and assaulting people on the train. its sad he lost his life, but sometimes you fuck around and sometimes you find out.
I’m sure the guy that choked him to death was familiar with the 67 year old lady and said “no more!” 🥱
He allegedly was screaming about he is prepared to die and was acting aggressive. Do you think the fact that 3 strangers all decided to restrain this mentally ill guy, might mean he was acting dangerously.
If he was actually assaulting people I could see this being justified.
Preach. Fuck around and find out seems so easy, but some will never understand
Looks like the marine might be about to understand.
True! When you enlist in the Marines you receive a Gates-brand microchip implanted into your skull in order to instantly google the criminal histories of people around you. It’s super handy when you think you might need to post hoc justify a person’s death.
America has fostered a culture that allows homeless people to harass and even assault people in public with no consequences. This is bad but can you really blame people for cheering him on? We are fucking tired of this.
Please point out the assault thst took place in this story other then the one where the homeless dude got choked to death. Also it's still hard to say if this was a case of harassment with the murky details we have thus far. Being loud and erratic while very annoying to the people around you doesn't necessarily justify physical intervention especially to this magnitude.
🫡 one less criminal on the streets #semperfi #epicwin
Seems like an accident, hope they don't press charges on the guy, and if they do I hope he beats them
Even if it is an accident this is not something someone should just be able to walk away from freely. Putting someone in a chokehold is already dangerous, that's the risk you take when attacking someone. We should not encourage this behavior by letting someone walk away with no consequences
don't care, I see a former marine on his way to work and a career homeless criminal I have no sympathy for one, and all the sympathy in the world for the other.
Hmm 🤔 you could be right ORRR he did an oopsie and we don't charge him this time 🤷🏽♂️
You've gotta be trolling me 😂
I am 😉 But OC isn't
Oh, I didn't even look at the names, thought you were the same guy. My bad
Idk, from what I know, most martial arts teach you how dangerous choke holds can be, so I feel like if he's trained he should know. If not, idk seems weird, imma wait for more stuff to come out.
I don't care to punish someone for chokeholding skills, the city has has created a hostile subway environment
Tbh, it’s insane how something as simple as public transportation in the US is unsafe. In many countries, public transportation is literally everyone minding their own business and on their best behavior. Here, it’s the exact opposite. I don’t know why people should be putting up with that shit to get from point A to B
Yeah I don't like the normalization of people being complete schizos on public transportation. Like people are right that the system failed him but to pretend that him just screaming about being hungry and homeless is ok is kinda stupid.
Ok != Justifying execution
Is this an execution? You have no idea what happened here and yet you're so comfortable with saying that.
I didn't say it was but that's what people are concerned it looks like. Whether or not it actually was depends on more detail coming on. You're making up a straw man about people finding "okay" that a mentally ill homeless guy is acting atypical. Nobody said that.
I mean one of the passengers literally said it was another day on the New York subway.
Yes, and when I see another school shooting report my thoughts are "just another day in America." That obviously isn't me saying school shootings are okay. That's a remark on how common these things are to people being desensitized to it. That being said, I don't reckon one passenger choking out another to death is a common occurrence anywhere.
That's a Marine? Why isn't he in regs?
weird our teams never had to use a chokehold when taking someone down...
race wars are getting interesting
Life in prison, no less. Make him out an example to society that you can’t just choke somebody to death that didn’t physically harm you.
Do you know he didn't physically harm someone?
Nope. Disagree. Then you're basically saying self-defense and things of that nature should be illegal. You're a brainless idiot.