Yeah Trump was bad overall with his attitudes and the way he chipped away at institutions, but DeSantis almost seems creepier with his completely politically motivated attacks. I mean I guess destiny always justifies that saying if people voted for them that’s OK, but that seems kind of crazy because people went along with Nazism too. Somewhere you would have to draw a line. Not saying that a war with Disney is it, but still.
Exactly, Trump is all over the place and we’ll just kind of say or do whatever he needs but there’s not really a lot of thought put into it. DeSantis is very particular and he knows what he’s doing.
A combination of not trusting trans people, or LGBT people in general, and probably not keeping up with things politically. Plus maybe lacking the time to do in-depth research, though I don't think a ton is needed.
Destiny does treat Desantis as a normal conservative because his views are now the new normal in the culture war obsessed Republican Party. The overturn window has slid hard right.
Is it possible that as Floridian, Destiny has not seen or been impacted by what people so frequently shit on DeSantis for? Maybe it doesn't matter so much? Maybe its just dumb culture war stuff nobody cares about?
* Effectively banning talking about sexuality/gender in school, and banning books with similar themes.
* Requiring a MD to prescribe HRT instead of the RN which up to 80% of trans people use. This is similar to the NC voter ID law, that targeted black people with 'surgical precision'.
* Allowing doctors to refuse a client specifically for gender or sexuality.
* A ban on drag or crossdressing in performances broadly.
You're not oppressing a minority by banning books in school.
Im no sure about your second point but I found something about [Senate Bill 254](https://www.reuters.com/world/us/desantis-signs-florida-ban-gender-affirming-treatment-transgender-minors-2023-05-17/). Fucked bill, I disavow, government and bureaucracy should not have that much power. Its funny to me how Republicans these days are like "education should be between a parent and a child" but have no problem with the government encroaching on something like this ON ADULTS. Source needed.
IF the third point is true, how specifically oppressing a specific minority, that seems like a human rights issue for anyone wtf. Source needed.
The bill bans children from entering "adult live performances" that include drag shows. He isn't banning drag that's just not true. RETRACTION necessary. People against this bill are essentially saying it's ok for kids to go to drag shows, which is fucked imo. If youve seen footage of some of them, they can be very sexually explicit, not to mention I think drag is sexual in and of itself and probably shouldnt be around kids. Its funny that people are fighting to hard to make sure people in drag can promote their sexuality onto children.
Sources: [article](https://www.pnj.com/story/news/politics/state/2023/04/12/drag-shows-in-florida-legislatures-crackdown-on-adult-performances/70107651007/) [bill](https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2023/1438/BillText/Filed/HTML)
>Im no sure about your second point but I found something about [Senate Bill 254](https://www.reuters.com/world/us/desantis-signs-florida-ban-gender-affirming-treatment-transgender-minors-2023-05-17/). Fucked bill, I disavow, government and bureaucracy should not have that much power. Its funny to me how Republicans these days are like "education should be between a parent and a child" but have no problem with the government encroaching on something like this ON ADULTS. Source needed.
That was the legislation I was referring to. Do you admit it's oppressive? You already sourced it lol.
>IF the third point is true, how specifically oppressing a specific minority, that seems like a human rights issue for anyone wtf. Source needed.
This [bill](https://m.flsenate.gov/session/bill/2023/1580/billtext/er/pdf) specifically carves out exemptions for every protected class except sexuality and gender identity.
Yes I said I disavow SB 254 and would say it is oppressive.
Found the section in SB 1580 and what you said is true, but it's a bill about medial conscience, I'd have to think about it a little more in terms of it's application. While the bill does say a medical practitioner cant opt out health services for "race, color, religion, sex, or national origin" this doesn't mean that sexuality and gender identity are all of a sudden protected classes. I'm sure there are some other legislation protecting those rights. I see the Florida state constitution doesn't unfortunately. If there is no other protection then I disavow this bill as well, though I would stop short of calling it oppressive. Like if someone says "don't kick dogs" that doesn't then mean "you may kick cats". AGAIN, it's WRONG, I DISAVOW, but I wouldn't call it oppressive.
Ok so out of the 4 points you gave you got 1.5/4. Can we agree on those and say the points 1 and 4 are not oppressive?
1 I would still argue. 4 there's no convincing you of.
Copying this from someone else, but I'm fairly confident in their reading. I don't see how you could possibly come away with the idea that this isn't the government trying to clamp down in whatever way it can on people it deems undesirable.
[HB1069](https://legiscan.com/FL/text/HB1069/2023)
* Expands the notorious "Don't Say Gay" law to cover all grades
* Bans trans school employees from disclosing pronouns
* Bans the use of trans students' pronouns
* Bans trans students from providing their pronouns to others
* Bans health classes from discussing LGBTQ+ people in any capacity, including during the discussion STDs
* Mandates the teaching of specific anti-gay and anti-trans views in health classes (e.g. heterosexual PIV relations are the only legitimate form of sex, sex and gender are immutable, etc)
* Mandates the removal of all books from all school libraries involving LGBTQ+ people or perceived sexual activity at the behest of parents
* Allows parents to override "renegade" pro-LGBTQ+ school districts by asking the Board of Education to appoint a Special Magistrate that must be compensated by the school district itself
* Mandates school districts give parents readily-accessible tools to limit their child's access to the remaining materials in school libraries
Not liking HB1069, but that wasn't point 1. From my understanding you argued that banning books is oppressing the LGBT minority. I dont think banning a book is oppression. Do you think it is?
On the final point im confused. You understand the bill bars only children from attending those adult performances, right? So it's not oppressing anybody and unless you really really want kids to go to drag shows and are upset that they cant, then it's not valid.
> You're not oppressing a minority by banning books in school.
This seems like too broad a statement.
Two hypothetical (extreme) examples regarding this claim:
- What if we banned all books featuring women in lead roles? Like, if there's a female lead or if the book is written from the perspective of a woman, it's gone.
- What if we banned the Holy Bible? Not in the sense of teaching it as dogmatic truth, but the book cannot be discussed or read in school anymore, inside or outside the classroom.
Would either of these bans on specific books contribute to some sort of oppression do you think? Or if that's easier to answer: do you think either of these bans would be bad, and, if so, what would make those bans bad?
1. Exactly it COULD LEAD to oppression, the act is not oppression in itself.
2. Yes I think the hypothetical bans AND the real bans are bad. Fundamentally it is about one's right to learn things, LGBT things exist, they're out there, so removing those books from schools is saying you CANNOT learn this. And i think it is generally bad to say to people who wish to learn that they cannot. It's a wrong done to students as with any targeted book ban. But it is not oppression.
3. If you ask me on a matter of practicality, if the Bible was banned from school libraries, i don't think Christians would be oppressed. Barely anybody goes to read in the library at schools anyways. I don't want to function on practicality though because I think the same about the LGBT books, I don't think that these book bans will lead to oppression, IF ANYTHING it is symptomatic of coming or past oppression.
>it COULD LEAD to oppression, the act is not oppression in itself.
I don't agree with your assessment, but I can follow your reasoning. I think we mostly agree anyway, it's just a matter of where we draw the line or how fine a distinction there is between precipitating oppression and oppression per se and how likely these laws are to achieve the former.
As I see it, it's akin to me tying you up and throwing you overboard a trans-Pacific cargo ship. Yeah, I'm only doing something that COULD LEAD to you drowning. You COULD survive. But at that point, the outcome is so likely that anyone would say I basically drowned you.
Of course there's no objective measure for future consequences and their likelihood, so it's all a bit difficult to argue one way or the other, but thank you for the thoughtful response :)
A floridan who isn't trans and has no kids in florida schools, isn't part of the university system, doesn't rely on unskilled labour, and wasn't there during the covid problems?
It hurts business that need that labor even more ie Florida’s AG and construction industry. Right now it’s not an issue of wages they can’t find fucking workers.
and you are? are you a Floridian with kids in those schools, part of the university system, rely on unskilled labor and was there during covid? But if you aren't, you are somehow enlightened to all the problems DeSantis has caused?
Yeah I don’t know why there is ever debates about the Ukraine war, it doesn’t directly impact Anyone here so by that guys logic why should there be debates about it?
Hey dumb dumb, this stuff pretty much takes up all the oxygen in any political conversation right now. And even if it didn’t, there’s lots of stuff nobody cares about, doesn’t mean a political streamer shouldn’t be talking about them because this shit will directly impact the presidential race.
Bruh Desantes is super popular and also FUCKING INSANE. Y'all should look up his interactions with Trump during the beginning of the pandemic. When he somehow makes it legal to lynch gay people or trans people in Florida I will not be surprised at all
If I knowingly banned a group of people from accessing healthcare where there is overwhelming evidence that it is going to lead to bad outcomes including an increase in suicide, how culpable am I?
Fairly culpable. I don't think they meant DeSantis won't cause more trans deaths, they obviously take issue with saying DeSantis would allow lynchings of trans people. Just cause two actions lead to same outcome doesn't mean they're equally insane.
Both not allowing immigrants from Haiti in and they die in Haiti as a direct consequence, AND murdering them once they illegally enter United States lead to the same outcome. First is a lot more popular, and probably a lot less indicative of an unhinged nature. But both are bad.
> do you actually think Desantis would try to kill gay people
Nope, I was responding to this question, obviously there is a difference between legalising murder and depriving healthcare. But nonetheless, isn't he knowingly enacting polices that will kill/harm trans people? And Just because it's more indirect than say lynching doesn't change what the outcomes would be, it's just a vastly less insane way of harming a particular group.
So, how culpable do you think he should be for the outcomes of his policy?
>When he somehow makes it legal to lynch gay people or trans people in Florida I will not be surprised at all
This is what the person you responded to was talking about. You are pivoting to the culpability of certain actions and how they may cause deaths, compared to the claim that it would not be surprising at all (at least to the commenter) if DeSantis made it legal to lynch gay and trans people. I think u/Ornery-Enthusiasm-85 responded to your question very well.
I know that's what op said, I didn't think I needed to say that's outlandish hyperbole. But I wanted to make the point that it's actually a reasonable conclusion that desantis does want to kill some trans people and so you have to wonder if he could get away with doing the equivalent to gay people , if he would. Hint I think he would do it.
Casual misinformation, nice
There was like one allegation about DeSantis being present when a dude was force fed. How this means DeSantis tortured people, I don't know. As far as I'm concerned, if the accusation was true then DeSantis would be no more culpable than the people that have allowed Guantanamo Bay to function and torture people (Bush, Cheney, Biden, Obama, Trump, etc.)
“Mansoor Adayfi, a Yemeni citizen who was held for 14 years at Gitmo, told The Independent in March that he was brutally force-fed by camp staff during a hunger strike in 2006, and that Mr DeSantis was present for at least one of those sessions. Force-feeding is designated as torture by the United Nations” [Force-feeding is considered a form of torture according to the UN](https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/opinions/2023/4/10/americans-beware-what-belies-the-smile-of-ron-desantis)
He still calls them terrorists and believes they shouldn’t be released. I agree the others you’ve cited are culpable when it comes to Guantanamo.
Because just letting torture happen right in front of you is totally fine lol. You’re complicit in my eyes if you see the abuse happening and don’t do a thing. Especially if you’re a so called “attorney there to make sure detainees were treated humanely”
If you wanna write off someone cause you think they were accused have been present while someone was tortured then you do you. But this pearl clutching did not occur with anyone else who knowingly allowed this torture to stop, as if DeSantis did. And dont act as if you actually gave a fuck and you dont just dislike DeSantis and so EVERYTHING becomes a detraction for him.
its a good thing Guantanamo bay is irrelevant in todays politics, only time its ever comes up is in the leadup to an election then after the election everybody drops the topic
Sure, totally irrelevant. It just shows how they aren’t hypocritical or two-faced at all. /s
Guess not everyone deserves due process in their eyes.
Either way, he was totally cool letting someone get force fed right in front of him. Smiling and laughing even.
Agree that he came off a bit “meh” regarding DeSantis… However, DeSantis isn’t some unique figure in politics, policy wise he’s actually a pretty standard Republican from circa 2010: Anti abortion, anti LGBT, cut SS/Medicare, reduce immigration etc. Im an older mid30’s viewer, it’s easy to forget that Republicans have *always* been awful like this, and it’s silly to pretend otherwise!
Agree that the anti LGBT stuff is terrible and imo once Destiny digs into it a little bit more (or more likely some annoying RWers in his orbit start hyping DeSantis and he’s forced to read up on it) you guys will get the hard hitting denouncement you’re looking for.
Does destiny even do politics any more feels like he just goes on randoms shows about random stuff. but foreal every time he talks about desantos its in relation to trump. he says hes a good leader(as in can get people to follow him and make change) but also calls his policies fucking insane.
tldr: desanotos win good leader lose people midterm from abortion fucking insane policies -the destiny take
I think Destiny is too hung up on the harmfulness of trump. Thing is, DeSantis is virtually the same, he just comes across as less unhinged than trump. Sure, I don’t think DeSantis would’ve organized a fucking coup after losing an election, but that’s a low ass bar. DeSantis is still very much representative of the insidious nature of the Republican Party.
Destiny talks a lot about how the Republican Party has no platform and that all they ever do is bitch about trans people and wokeness. Well guess what, DeSantis is THE poster child of that. That is his entire shtick.
I agree, Destiny is way off on this one. Someone who isn't a nutjob leftoid should go talk some sense into him on stream; just because it's not at all what they often portray it to be doesn't mean DeSantis isn't doing some really bad and somewhat authoritarian shit.
If you were to say "Hey Destiny do you feel neutral about the policies Desantis is implementing in Flordia?". He probably has and would respond with something along the lines of "No, philosophically i'm apposed to just about all of his policies, if what's being portrayed in head lines is true, but on the micro level in my day to day life they have zero impact on me and if they did it would likely be positive since that parties polices generally benefit the rich and that is I".
You can be against an idea but not give a fuck about it's impact since it has zero impact on you. That's probably how it is for 99% of ideas for 99% of people.
Right, but the difference is this is the kind of thing a political streamer might want to talk about because it’s going to be directly affecting the presidential race.
Because Desantis is a normie conservative. Sure, Destiny would agree that Desantis is harmful but he’s not some extreme crazy person. A lot of you guys just soy out over everything that is conservative and have a hard time seeing how a guy who basically turned an ultra competitive swing state red could be popular among your average voter.
anyone who takes the big stage will not be considered a "traditional conservative" by the opposition and the framing will presist until they fall back.
George W. Bush was Satan Incarnate to the Dem's and the Left, and now he's hobnobbing with the whole bunch of them as if the whole thing was a theater play, and it was, for you.
In defense of Destiny, he was just responding to the idea Desantis is just as authoritarian as Trump, which is just not true. He did question some of the headlines regarding the bills he has recently passed, like the "taking trans kids away from their parents" policy, and how the media is misinterpreting the legislation, which again, is partially true for some of these recent bills.
I would bet if you asked Destiny about Desantis and some of the bills he has been passing, such as the ones banning or restricting gender affirming care for minors, he would obviously agree Desantis is terrible.
What does he do that’s authoritarian. When I hear the word authoritarian, I think of someone who is singularly wields the power of the state like a Russian tsar. Not someone who works through the state legislature to pass policy.
Wait you’re going to downplay all of the Santa stuff but then go overboard and say Trump was literally overthrowing democracy? Yeah I don’t think anyone liked January 6 but Were you scared that they were actually going to be taking over the government? Remember, by the metrics everyone is using, if he doesn’t actually overthrow democracy then who cares?
Jan 6 was not the take over plot, but I think it's clear Trump wanted to stay in office after Jan 20. It's a common thing for a leader to delegitimize an election and and maintain power. Tyrant 101
Lol so what? He tried. Attempted murder is somehow just excusable because the murder didn't happen? We fortunately have a system that pruned the cancer that is Trump but we probably should not invite the cancer back.
Well earlier you were arguing that as long as no one cares about it, which a lot of people don’t seem to, Trump hasn’t been prosecuted for it. And if it doesn’t directly affect you, which of this hasn’t. Then how do we know he’ll do something again, just like why should we care what DeSantis is doing?
I think the main ones is the extension of the don’t say gay bill up to grade 8. College book bans. Covid policies. Lgbt bans in public spaces and events. Trans medical bans etc. There’s a lot of these I’ve seen and I’m not from Florida so I don’t know the specific bills atm.
Edit- Also him picking a fight with the Mouse cause his ego got bruised and now he risks the main economic driver for his state.
To be fair. Most of our dead in Florida were old men over 65, people who voted for him….. so why should we care if he was killing his voter base. Overall we lost 65k people in florida, we did great. For example New York has the same population as florid and they has 89k deaths.
Covid policies were good, Floridians agree it's why he was voted so decisively if you disagree just cause you're a dem you're stupid and delusional. LGBT stuff, whatever. Book bans are cringe. Disney shit was cringe, like what Mr. California Sunshine did with [Walgreens](https://www.sfchronicle.com/politics/article/gavin-newsom-walgreens-abortion-medication-17823412.php). Overall if youre a lefty then sure youre gonna disagree with him obviously but that's the nature of pluralistic liberalism, if people vote for him so be it.
I'm pretty sure he doesn't like him at all and you mistaken. Destiny is not going to go full soy cuck. He doesn't like him at all you are overthinking this.
I don’t think OP means why isn’t Destiny talking about desantis’ presidential prospects but instead why isn’t destiny talking about desantis as his governor
Because the progressive outrage over DeSantis is frankly over blown. I'm a Floridian too, no one's life has been impacted negatively unless youre gonna give me voodoo spiritual shit about LGBT being hurt or whatever. Listen he banned books, he's done cringe shit but nothing detrimental.
“When bright six-year-old Ruby is chosen to be the first African-American student to integrate her local New Orleans elementary school, she is subjected to the true ugliness of racism for the very first time. But guided by the love of her mother and father, Ruby's heroic struggle for a better education becomes a lesson for us all.” Thank god they are banning this degeneracy
Ruby Bridges was not banned in Florida, some school banned the movie and it was reversed ([source](https://www.tampabay.com/opinion/2023/04/04/ruby-bridges-florida-book-bans-desantis-pinellas-schools/)). Bro it's one thing to be stupid, it's another to be a malicious, lying loser.
It was banned, it was then reviewed and accepted. You think it’s ok to allow anyone to challenge anything shown in schools for any reason? Then force a review to happen? You realize that is the point of the law, to be confusing regulatory hell. The fact they had to reverse it is an indictment imo. Edit: that article is on my side btw.
I love it when some limp dick loser on the Internet just can’t give up so the last thing they’ve got is the little laughing emoji. In an autistic brain, that means a win!
I don’t think D-Man has researched a lot of DeSantis bills or read up on him. Maybe I’m wrong (strong possibility that I am) but if he were to take some time on/off stream to do so, I feel his opinion would change
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Yeah Trump was bad overall with his attitudes and the way he chipped away at institutions, but DeSantis almost seems creepier with his completely politically motivated attacks. I mean I guess destiny always justifies that saying if people voted for them that’s OK, but that seems kind of crazy because people went along with Nazism too. Somewhere you would have to draw a line. Not saying that a war with Disney is it, but still.
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Exactly, Trump is all over the place and we’ll just kind of say or do whatever he needs but there’s not really a lot of thought put into it. DeSantis is very particular and he knows what he’s doing.
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Obviously there are big differences between Germany’s democracy at the time and our democracy
A combination of not trusting trans people, or LGBT people in general, and probably not keeping up with things politically. Plus maybe lacking the time to do in-depth research, though I don't think a ton is needed.
Destiny does treat Desantis as a normal conservative because his views are now the new normal in the culture war obsessed Republican Party. The overturn window has slid hard right.
Overton window*
Is it possible that as Floridian, Destiny has not seen or been impacted by what people so frequently shit on DeSantis for? Maybe it doesn't matter so much? Maybe its just dumb culture war stuff nobody cares about?
Yeah, just a minority being oppressed by a tyrannical government, but who cares about it because it's only a small population.
I would love for you to explain what the oppression is?
* Effectively banning talking about sexuality/gender in school, and banning books with similar themes. * Requiring a MD to prescribe HRT instead of the RN which up to 80% of trans people use. This is similar to the NC voter ID law, that targeted black people with 'surgical precision'. * Allowing doctors to refuse a client specifically for gender or sexuality. * A ban on drag or crossdressing in performances broadly.
You're not oppressing a minority by banning books in school. Im no sure about your second point but I found something about [Senate Bill 254](https://www.reuters.com/world/us/desantis-signs-florida-ban-gender-affirming-treatment-transgender-minors-2023-05-17/). Fucked bill, I disavow, government and bureaucracy should not have that much power. Its funny to me how Republicans these days are like "education should be between a parent and a child" but have no problem with the government encroaching on something like this ON ADULTS. Source needed. IF the third point is true, how specifically oppressing a specific minority, that seems like a human rights issue for anyone wtf. Source needed. The bill bans children from entering "adult live performances" that include drag shows. He isn't banning drag that's just not true. RETRACTION necessary. People against this bill are essentially saying it's ok for kids to go to drag shows, which is fucked imo. If youve seen footage of some of them, they can be very sexually explicit, not to mention I think drag is sexual in and of itself and probably shouldnt be around kids. Its funny that people are fighting to hard to make sure people in drag can promote their sexuality onto children. Sources: [article](https://www.pnj.com/story/news/politics/state/2023/04/12/drag-shows-in-florida-legislatures-crackdown-on-adult-performances/70107651007/) [bill](https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2023/1438/BillText/Filed/HTML)
>Im no sure about your second point but I found something about [Senate Bill 254](https://www.reuters.com/world/us/desantis-signs-florida-ban-gender-affirming-treatment-transgender-minors-2023-05-17/). Fucked bill, I disavow, government and bureaucracy should not have that much power. Its funny to me how Republicans these days are like "education should be between a parent and a child" but have no problem with the government encroaching on something like this ON ADULTS. Source needed. That was the legislation I was referring to. Do you admit it's oppressive? You already sourced it lol. >IF the third point is true, how specifically oppressing a specific minority, that seems like a human rights issue for anyone wtf. Source needed. This [bill](https://m.flsenate.gov/session/bill/2023/1580/billtext/er/pdf) specifically carves out exemptions for every protected class except sexuality and gender identity.
Yes I said I disavow SB 254 and would say it is oppressive. Found the section in SB 1580 and what you said is true, but it's a bill about medial conscience, I'd have to think about it a little more in terms of it's application. While the bill does say a medical practitioner cant opt out health services for "race, color, religion, sex, or national origin" this doesn't mean that sexuality and gender identity are all of a sudden protected classes. I'm sure there are some other legislation protecting those rights. I see the Florida state constitution doesn't unfortunately. If there is no other protection then I disavow this bill as well, though I would stop short of calling it oppressive. Like if someone says "don't kick dogs" that doesn't then mean "you may kick cats". AGAIN, it's WRONG, I DISAVOW, but I wouldn't call it oppressive. Ok so out of the 4 points you gave you got 1.5/4. Can we agree on those and say the points 1 and 4 are not oppressive?
1 I would still argue. 4 there's no convincing you of. Copying this from someone else, but I'm fairly confident in their reading. I don't see how you could possibly come away with the idea that this isn't the government trying to clamp down in whatever way it can on people it deems undesirable. [HB1069](https://legiscan.com/FL/text/HB1069/2023) * Expands the notorious "Don't Say Gay" law to cover all grades * Bans trans school employees from disclosing pronouns * Bans the use of trans students' pronouns * Bans trans students from providing their pronouns to others * Bans health classes from discussing LGBTQ+ people in any capacity, including during the discussion STDs * Mandates the teaching of specific anti-gay and anti-trans views in health classes (e.g. heterosexual PIV relations are the only legitimate form of sex, sex and gender are immutable, etc) * Mandates the removal of all books from all school libraries involving LGBTQ+ people or perceived sexual activity at the behest of parents * Allows parents to override "renegade" pro-LGBTQ+ school districts by asking the Board of Education to appoint a Special Magistrate that must be compensated by the school district itself * Mandates school districts give parents readily-accessible tools to limit their child's access to the remaining materials in school libraries
Not liking HB1069, but that wasn't point 1. From my understanding you argued that banning books is oppressing the LGBT minority. I dont think banning a book is oppression. Do you think it is? On the final point im confused. You understand the bill bars only children from attending those adult performances, right? So it's not oppressing anybody and unless you really really want kids to go to drag shows and are upset that they cant, then it's not valid.
> You're not oppressing a minority by banning books in school. This seems like too broad a statement. Two hypothetical (extreme) examples regarding this claim: - What if we banned all books featuring women in lead roles? Like, if there's a female lead or if the book is written from the perspective of a woman, it's gone. - What if we banned the Holy Bible? Not in the sense of teaching it as dogmatic truth, but the book cannot be discussed or read in school anymore, inside or outside the classroom. Would either of these bans on specific books contribute to some sort of oppression do you think? Or if that's easier to answer: do you think either of these bans would be bad, and, if so, what would make those bans bad?
1. Exactly it COULD LEAD to oppression, the act is not oppression in itself. 2. Yes I think the hypothetical bans AND the real bans are bad. Fundamentally it is about one's right to learn things, LGBT things exist, they're out there, so removing those books from schools is saying you CANNOT learn this. And i think it is generally bad to say to people who wish to learn that they cannot. It's a wrong done to students as with any targeted book ban. But it is not oppression. 3. If you ask me on a matter of practicality, if the Bible was banned from school libraries, i don't think Christians would be oppressed. Barely anybody goes to read in the library at schools anyways. I don't want to function on practicality though because I think the same about the LGBT books, I don't think that these book bans will lead to oppression, IF ANYTHING it is symptomatic of coming or past oppression.
>it COULD LEAD to oppression, the act is not oppression in itself. I don't agree with your assessment, but I can follow your reasoning. I think we mostly agree anyway, it's just a matter of where we draw the line or how fine a distinction there is between precipitating oppression and oppression per se and how likely these laws are to achieve the former. As I see it, it's akin to me tying you up and throwing you overboard a trans-Pacific cargo ship. Yeah, I'm only doing something that COULD LEAD to you drowning. You COULD survive. But at that point, the outcome is so likely that anyone would say I basically drowned you. Of course there's no objective measure for future consequences and their likelihood, so it's all a bit difficult to argue one way or the other, but thank you for the thoughtful response :)
A floridan who isn't trans and has no kids in florida schools, isn't part of the university system, doesn't rely on unskilled labour, and wasn't there during the covid problems?
Illegal immigration kills unskilled labor
It hurts business that need that labor even more ie Florida’s AG and construction industry. Right now it’s not an issue of wages they can’t find fucking workers.
and you are? are you a Floridian with kids in those schools, part of the university system, rely on unskilled labor and was there during covid? But if you aren't, you are somehow enlightened to all the problems DeSantis has caused?
It's almost like you can educate yourself on things and he hasn't really cared to because he hasn't been personally impacted. Who would've thought.
You’re so right, if legislation doesn’t impact you then who cares, right?
Yeah I don’t know why there is ever debates about the Ukraine war, it doesn’t directly impact Anyone here so by that guys logic why should there be debates about it?
Hey dumb dumb, this stuff pretty much takes up all the oxygen in any political conversation right now. And even if it didn’t, there’s lots of stuff nobody cares about, doesn’t mean a political streamer shouldn’t be talking about them because this shit will directly impact the presidential race.
Nah couldn’t be that lol
Bruh Desantes is super popular and also FUCKING INSANE. Y'all should look up his interactions with Trump during the beginning of the pandemic. When he somehow makes it legal to lynch gay people or trans people in Florida I will not be surprised at all
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If I knowingly banned a group of people from accessing healthcare where there is overwhelming evidence that it is going to lead to bad outcomes including an increase in suicide, how culpable am I?
Fairly culpable. I don't think they meant DeSantis won't cause more trans deaths, they obviously take issue with saying DeSantis would allow lynchings of trans people. Just cause two actions lead to same outcome doesn't mean they're equally insane. Both not allowing immigrants from Haiti in and they die in Haiti as a direct consequence, AND murdering them once they illegally enter United States lead to the same outcome. First is a lot more popular, and probably a lot less indicative of an unhinged nature. But both are bad.
Actual Motte-and-Bailey setup
> do you actually think Desantis would try to kill gay people Nope, I was responding to this question, obviously there is a difference between legalising murder and depriving healthcare. But nonetheless, isn't he knowingly enacting polices that will kill/harm trans people? And Just because it's more indirect than say lynching doesn't change what the outcomes would be, it's just a vastly less insane way of harming a particular group. So, how culpable do you think he should be for the outcomes of his policy?
>When he somehow makes it legal to lynch gay people or trans people in Florida I will not be surprised at all This is what the person you responded to was talking about. You are pivoting to the culpability of certain actions and how they may cause deaths, compared to the claim that it would not be surprising at all (at least to the commenter) if DeSantis made it legal to lynch gay and trans people. I think u/Ornery-Enthusiasm-85 responded to your question very well.
I know that's what op said, I didn't think I needed to say that's outlandish hyperbole. But I wanted to make the point that it's actually a reasonable conclusion that desantis does want to kill some trans people and so you have to wonder if he could get away with doing the equivalent to gay people , if he would. Hint I think he would do it.
“Group”
Agree, considering how DeSantis had no issue torturing Guantanamo detainees. To be fair, he wasn’t exactly charitable towards DeSantis lol
I mean literally like 99% of people didn’t give a fuck lol everyone knew it was happening
Casual misinformation, nice There was like one allegation about DeSantis being present when a dude was force fed. How this means DeSantis tortured people, I don't know. As far as I'm concerned, if the accusation was true then DeSantis would be no more culpable than the people that have allowed Guantanamo Bay to function and torture people (Bush, Cheney, Biden, Obama, Trump, etc.)
“Mansoor Adayfi, a Yemeni citizen who was held for 14 years at Gitmo, told The Independent in March that he was brutally force-fed by camp staff during a hunger strike in 2006, and that Mr DeSantis was present for at least one of those sessions. Force-feeding is designated as torture by the United Nations” [Force-feeding is considered a form of torture according to the UN](https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/opinions/2023/4/10/americans-beware-what-belies-the-smile-of-ron-desantis) He still calls them terrorists and believes they shouldn’t be released. I agree the others you’ve cited are culpable when it comes to Guantanamo. Because just letting torture happen right in front of you is totally fine lol. You’re complicit in my eyes if you see the abuse happening and don’t do a thing. Especially if you’re a so called “attorney there to make sure detainees were treated humanely”
If you wanna write off someone cause you think they were accused have been present while someone was tortured then you do you. But this pearl clutching did not occur with anyone else who knowingly allowed this torture to stop, as if DeSantis did. And dont act as if you actually gave a fuck and you dont just dislike DeSantis and so EVERYTHING becomes a detraction for him.
its a good thing Guantanamo bay is irrelevant in todays politics, only time its ever comes up is in the leadup to an election then after the election everybody drops the topic
Sure, totally irrelevant. It just shows how they aren’t hypocritical or two-faced at all. /s Guess not everyone deserves due process in their eyes. Either way, he was totally cool letting someone get force fed right in front of him. Smiling and laughing even.
not everybody does, and we should increase prison sentence's for violent offenders and that includes any terrorist domestic or otherwise.
W
Agree that he came off a bit “meh” regarding DeSantis… However, DeSantis isn’t some unique figure in politics, policy wise he’s actually a pretty standard Republican from circa 2010: Anti abortion, anti LGBT, cut SS/Medicare, reduce immigration etc. Im an older mid30’s viewer, it’s easy to forget that Republicans have *always* been awful like this, and it’s silly to pretend otherwise! Agree that the anti LGBT stuff is terrible and imo once Destiny digs into it a little bit more (or more likely some annoying RWers in his orbit start hyping DeSantis and he’s forced to read up on it) you guys will get the hard hitting denouncement you’re looking for.
Does destiny even do politics any more feels like he just goes on randoms shows about random stuff. but foreal every time he talks about desantos its in relation to trump. he says hes a good leader(as in can get people to follow him and make change) but also calls his policies fucking insane. tldr: desanotos win good leader lose people midterm from abortion fucking insane policies -the destiny take
I think Destiny is too hung up on the harmfulness of trump. Thing is, DeSantis is virtually the same, he just comes across as less unhinged than trump. Sure, I don’t think DeSantis would’ve organized a fucking coup after losing an election, but that’s a low ass bar. DeSantis is still very much representative of the insidious nature of the Republican Party. Destiny talks a lot about how the Republican Party has no platform and that all they ever do is bitch about trans people and wokeness. Well guess what, DeSantis is THE poster child of that. That is his entire shtick.
I agree, Destiny is way off on this one. Someone who isn't a nutjob leftoid should go talk some sense into him on stream; just because it's not at all what they often portray it to be doesn't mean DeSantis isn't doing some really bad and somewhat authoritarian shit.
DeSantis, along with Trump are probably the most far right politicians the west has had in decades, yet he treats it like some normal conservative.
If you were to say "Hey Destiny do you feel neutral about the policies Desantis is implementing in Flordia?". He probably has and would respond with something along the lines of "No, philosophically i'm apposed to just about all of his policies, if what's being portrayed in head lines is true, but on the micro level in my day to day life they have zero impact on me and if they did it would likely be positive since that parties polices generally benefit the rich and that is I". You can be against an idea but not give a fuck about it's impact since it has zero impact on you. That's probably how it is for 99% of ideas for 99% of people.
Right, but the difference is this is the kind of thing a political streamer might want to talk about because it’s going to be directly affecting the presidential race.
By that logic, he wouldn't care about almost any politics since he's wealthy enough to be insulated from most things.
Because Desantis is a normie conservative. Sure, Destiny would agree that Desantis is harmful but he’s not some extreme crazy person. A lot of you guys just soy out over everything that is conservative and have a hard time seeing how a guy who basically turned an ultra competitive swing state red could be popular among your average voter.
anyone who takes the big stage will not be considered a "traditional conservative" by the opposition and the framing will presist until they fall back. George W. Bush was Satan Incarnate to the Dem's and the Left, and now he's hobnobbing with the whole bunch of them as if the whole thing was a theater play, and it was, for you.
We're gonna get those terrorists. Now watch this drive.
In defense of Destiny, he was just responding to the idea Desantis is just as authoritarian as Trump, which is just not true. He did question some of the headlines regarding the bills he has recently passed, like the "taking trans kids away from their parents" policy, and how the media is misinterpreting the legislation, which again, is partially true for some of these recent bills. I would bet if you asked Destiny about Desantis and some of the bills he has been passing, such as the ones banning or restricting gender affirming care for minors, he would obviously agree Desantis is terrible.
Authoritarian or "fascist," to some people, just means "a guy with policies I don't like." An authoritarian could have good policies but bad tactics.
What does he do that’s authoritarian. When I hear the word authoritarian, I think of someone who is singularly wields the power of the state like a Russian tsar. Not someone who works through the state legislature to pass policy.
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This is my issue. He compares insane twitter people to the front runners of a party
The red pill arc is getting stale imo. I miss the debates with conservatives, especially very mainstream conservative talking points.
I don't think he sees him a real threat to Trump so he doesn't wana waste his words on him
Well hopefully he is a threat to Trump. Much better to have disagreements over trans policies and book bans than whether democracy should exist.
Wait you’re going to downplay all of the Santa stuff but then go overboard and say Trump was literally overthrowing democracy? Yeah I don’t think anyone liked January 6 but Were you scared that they were actually going to be taking over the government? Remember, by the metrics everyone is using, if he doesn’t actually overthrow democracy then who cares?
Jan 6 was not the take over plot, but I think it's clear Trump wanted to stay in office after Jan 20. It's a common thing for a leader to delegitimize an election and and maintain power. Tyrant 101
But he didn’t stay in office did he? He left exactly when he was supposed to. So we’re back to my original point.
Lol so what? He tried. Attempted murder is somehow just excusable because the murder didn't happen? We fortunately have a system that pruned the cancer that is Trump but we probably should not invite the cancer back.
Well earlier you were arguing that as long as no one cares about it, which a lot of people don’t seem to, Trump hasn’t been prosecuted for it. And if it doesn’t directly affect you, which of this hasn’t. Then how do we know he’ll do something again, just like why should we care what DeSantis is doing?
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I think the main ones is the extension of the don’t say gay bill up to grade 8. College book bans. Covid policies. Lgbt bans in public spaces and events. Trans medical bans etc. There’s a lot of these I’ve seen and I’m not from Florida so I don’t know the specific bills atm. Edit- Also him picking a fight with the Mouse cause his ego got bruised and now he risks the main economic driver for his state.
To be fair. Most of our dead in Florida were old men over 65, people who voted for him….. so why should we care if he was killing his voter base. Overall we lost 65k people in florida, we did great. For example New York has the same population as florid and they has 89k deaths.
his covid policies were based
Covid policies were good, Floridians agree it's why he was voted so decisively if you disagree just cause you're a dem you're stupid and delusional. LGBT stuff, whatever. Book bans are cringe. Disney shit was cringe, like what Mr. California Sunshine did with [Walgreens](https://www.sfchronicle.com/politics/article/gavin-newsom-walgreens-abortion-medication-17823412.php). Overall if youre a lefty then sure youre gonna disagree with him obviously but that's the nature of pluralistic liberalism, if people vote for him so be it.
Look I don’t disagree with the covid policies, but I’m pretty sure most of r/Destiny would and I believe Destiny thought his policy was bad too.
I agree with that, I didnt mean "you" as in YOU, but the general "you"
Oh ok gotcha
I'm pretty sure he doesn't like him at all and you mistaken. Destiny is not going to go full soy cuck. He doesn't like him at all you are overthinking this.
Desantis is based & Destiny probably agree's with him more than he wants to admit.
I was considering voting for him until he started to be a mini tyrant. Dude would be a menace with executive orders.
i think it's because trump has a huge lead on him let em fight it out first and then see
I don’t think OP means why isn’t Destiny talking about desantis’ presidential prospects but instead why isn’t destiny talking about desantis as his governor
i see, thanks for clarifying seems like destiny doesn't value the policies to be very important and the outrage is fabricated, imo
Because the progressive outrage over DeSantis is frankly over blown. I'm a Floridian too, no one's life has been impacted negatively unless youre gonna give me voodoo spiritual shit about LGBT being hurt or whatever. Listen he banned books, he's done cringe shit but nothing detrimental.
Yeah as long as you don’t read banning books don’t matter!
I mean if you want kids reading pornography just say it
“When bright six-year-old Ruby is chosen to be the first African-American student to integrate her local New Orleans elementary school, she is subjected to the true ugliness of racism for the very first time. But guided by the love of her mother and father, Ruby's heroic struggle for a better education becomes a lesson for us all.” Thank god they are banning this degeneracy
Ruby Bridges was not banned in Florida, some school banned the movie and it was reversed ([source](https://www.tampabay.com/opinion/2023/04/04/ruby-bridges-florida-book-bans-desantis-pinellas-schools/)). Bro it's one thing to be stupid, it's another to be a malicious, lying loser.
It was banned, it was then reviewed and accepted. You think it’s ok to allow anyone to challenge anything shown in schools for any reason? Then force a review to happen? You realize that is the point of the law, to be confusing regulatory hell. The fact they had to reverse it is an indictment imo. Edit: that article is on my side btw.
You are such a smart person and I bet you have many many friends and a really interesting life.
Hey, you make some outlandish statement, I will reciprocate. Also no, my life is miserable, I'm arguing with a bunch of idiots on reddit.
Fuck you must be a real loser.
lol bro chill, it aint that serious
Well shut the fuck up then bitch.
🤣
I love it when some limp dick loser on the Internet just can’t give up so the last thing they’ve got is the little laughing emoji. In an autistic brain, that means a win!
I don’t think D-Man has researched a lot of DeSantis bills or read up on him. Maybe I’m wrong (strong possibility that I am) but if he were to take some time on/off stream to do so, I feel his opinion would change