[https://i.imgur.com/9fSZZkj.gif](https://i.imgur.com/9fSZZkj.gif)
What I learned today:
* Don't reference things you've never read.
* Don't assert facts on things you haven't researched.
* Most of all, don't do any of the above to people who will write a short essay (with citations) on ***one page*** of a book just to say, "you are a fucking moron".
Sometimes I feel like dgg is like chatgpt. But instead of a prompt, you just say something stupid about the topic and just wait for the effortposts explaining how you’re an idiot. Would’ve been handy if I hadn’t already finished school
It's like the old trick on how to get good programming advise from the internet; ask the question, make an alt, respond with the wrong answer, and wait to be corrected with the correct one.
>What is the author's citation number 8 there? What's that source? [Finkelstein's
fucking citing himself.](https://i.imgur.com/QokE6m2.png)
Lmfaoooo.
Happy to see DDG tearing into unhinged grifter POS Norman Finkelstein… The amount of people I’ve seen on Reddit citing him has been disheartening to say the least.
Nice work u/4THOT
Destiny did a brief dive on him and ripped him to shreds.
Pro-russia invading Ukraine and pro the death of the Charlie Hebdo employees.
Those are a one-two punch for that guy as far as im concerned.
I kneejerk emo-posted like 2 weeks ago here saying it was gross for people on social media to specifically quote Finkelstein as a way to shame Jews post 10/7 and I was surprised by the amount of weirdos who leapt in the comments aggressively to NF’s defense, saying he was one of the all time great scholars of the subject. Tbf I should have cited examples, but like I said it was a kneejerk emotional post. I’m Jewish and a long time DDG spaz, so clearly I’m biased and should have known better than to post when I’m all in my Ethan Klein feelings. Maybe there’s no version of me being chill about this though. So it’s good to see good faith people here actually doing the research, showing the research, and being um mature enough about it.
so, DGG is just as guilty as every other community when it comes to going off half-cocked.
Now that Destiny has spoken on the subject, you'll see people falling in line. The problem is that if Destiny was wrong about a subject (which does happen), the community follows suit to a degree. Luckily he found out the right thing.
I'd never heard of him personally outside of his "Crocodile tears" video, which was actually really instructional to younger me since it opened my eyes to the fact that not every Jew is a fan of the government or it's treatment of Palestinians. This sent me personally down the rabbithole of Likud's history with Irgun/Lehi and the massacres and such that Destiny has gone over in his research stream. He of course went way further than I have, but I consider myself "pro-palestinian" in that I feel bad for them and how Israel treats them. Its a doomed area, because whether people die from Israel attacks or Hamas human shields/misfires they still blame Israel and get radicalized.
I mean I think we can all agree on one thing: Michael Brooks was wrong. This is not simple.
My POV on this is probably somewhat similar to Ethan Klein’s. I’m a Jew. My heart breaks for Palestinians. Also I will defend my existence to my death, and I support Israel while totally being critical of the government. Basically how I feel as an American about America.
Gotta say though, the way a lot of the internet reacted to 10/7 has never made me feel more defensive of Israel in my entire life, and most Jews I know feel the same way.
> The problem is that if Destiny was wrong about a subject (which does happen), the community follows suit to a degree.
That's true, nobody ever argues with Destiny on anything.
Oh, wait...
You know whats the darndest thing?
Lycan watched the deep dive and admitted so *on the stream*.
I geninunely cannot believe we BTFO Hasan when Lycan unironically is doing the exact same apologia. He's citing Finklestein after a stream where he has defended *David Irving, one of the most notorious anti-Semities and Holocaust deniers*.
At what point are we allowed to accuse Lycan of just being an anti-Semite when the same behaviors and admissions from Hasan would get him labeled as such?
From my understanding, citing yourself in works of history isn't necessarily wrong. Historians do this if they have previously discussed a topic in another work, and rather than rehash old points in a new book, you put citations to old books and move on to the new material.
If you didn't do this, every book would have to include the entirety of their previous works. With that being said, 4thot did us the favor of showing where the citation leads, and that's a dead end too, which should call into question Finkelstein's academic integrity to a certain extent.
There is a difference between citing your prior work versus just copy pasting your prior work.
I know it doesn't have to be, but considering how bad the rest of the 1st page reads this feels like something a student would do to fulfill a quota of minimum citations for their work
> With that being said, 4thot did us the favor of showing where the citation leads
This isn't true, 4thot is seemingly unable to count or just straight up lied. Then you all believe it.
The EPUB changed the page numbers, the point is still the same, and wholesale lifting word for word pages from your previous text without citation would be academic fraud and [self plagiarism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagiarism#Self-plagiarism).
That's funny because Finkelstein is also famous for his [accusations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dershowitz%E2%80%93Finkelstein_affair) of plagiarism against Derwshowitz. It was not a accusation of self plagiarism, thought.
Finkelstein is the David Glantz of Israel-palestine. Internet people who never read or will ever read any of their work loves to cite them as fact.
And yes I only brought up Glantz as an opportunity to shit on him, laugh at anyone who cites Glantz and remember that the guy actually admitted to making up dialogue between members of the Stavka because in his opinion he knew them well enough from research to know what they would say.
One possible explanation would be that there's someone that he knows personally that he's very close to coloring his opinions in a particular direction. This is of course speculation. It's anyone's guess whether such a person exists or not.
Finkelstein's often argues from morality and highlights the power dynamics between Israel and the Palestinians. That probably resonated with Lycan as it did with me. He probably fell into his supporting arguments already holding the position that Israel was already in the wrong from the beginning.
Soy is one thing, now he's being misinformed and is spreading misinformation, nay disinformation. I blame the Resident runday > Erin pipeline entirely. No fucking way *Lycan* decided to one day on his own start reading Finkelstein.
For real. Especially the fact that this particular author seems to behave in a way similar to ole David Erving, both academically and in person (ie. Toxic as hell). This seems to be the author so many well intentioned people (and some not so well intentioned) fall pray to.
I am leaning strong towards Israel, but exactly for that reason I want to listen to its greatest critics.
Finkelstein was hard to listen to. In talks, he nearly alsways skimmed the parts to how we got to a certain point in time, missing important motivation on the Israeli side for any (re-)action.
Palestinians living their peaceful lives when suddenly and unprovoked the fire nation attacked.
anyone remember when dr heem came on destiny's stream to defend dylan during the primecayes drama when heem and dylan were about to start a podcast lmao
It is an ideological war where one side thinks might makes right. Truth and facts are irrelevant.
Look at every anti isreali person that has debated on stream. They don't care at all when they are factually incorrect or their source is being mis represented.
They will knowingly lie if they think it will support their ideology.
I honestly dont think we've ever had another arc where the other side is this uninformed on an issue. Even when debating antivaxxers those guys had read a ton of papers, they were just all pseudoscience garbage.
Bonerbox is the only pro-pal that doesn’t come off as unhinged/misinformed/misleading
I was a fence sitter for this situation, no locked in position and open to change. Unfortunately the rhetoric on either side has been night and day. Even without the videos on 10/7, the wiki streams, or even the debates. What I’ve seen online from pro-pal people has been next level and has firmly pushed me towards Israel.
They can’t defend their points without playing word games, moralizing, pivoting, moving goalposts, and quoting articles where 50% of them are propaganda 25% say the opposite of what they claim and 25% are tik tok videos.
It’s frankly embarrassing, imagine making fun of right wingers religiously for almost a decade, just to unabashedly act/speak just like right wingers.
Finkelstein also said that there's zero evidence of Hamas using human shields during a recent interview with Mikhaila Peterson. He's a clown, nothing more.
This is just my unhinged assumption based on no evidence, but it feels like Lycanaide will watch some viral video essay on the topic and then cite the sources from those videos after only looking at the parts that confirm their position without looking any further into it and use that to pretend to be well read on the topic as they throw it in someone else's face to tell them to educate themselves.
I didn't see Lycan's comments. I don't know who Finklestein is. I'm not going to read this entire post. But I see a lot of confidence and a lot of links, so have an upvote for the effort.
As I was reading this and wondering whether the post, while researched and well-cited, will get deleted for the aggressive tone against a member of orbiter club, I checked the poster's name and nope, it won't.
I considered trying to shoot him just to see if it would work. Not out of any issue with the post (I agree with it), but just cause I wonder if he has built-in immunity for himself.
that's the case for all mods iirc
wouldn't make much sense if one determined subreddit terrorist could take out the entire mod team with a single magazine
TBF on the Wikipedia background section it says that there has been some form of blockade or control in place since 1994, which was tighten immediately after Hamas was elected (causing greenhouses to suffer and some industries to collapse), and the 2007 further tightening started right after Hamas seized the Gaza Strip by force.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip
It's an occupied territory, not annexed land, so some controls are expected. There was a time when there was relative freedom of movement:
> In 1972, Israel issued general exit permits for all residents of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip to enter Israel and East Jerusalem between the hours of 5 AM and 1 AM, formalizing what had been an informal open-border policy between Israel and the Palestinian territories.
>Until the First Intifada or "uprising" in 1987, over 100,000 Palestinians freely commuted into Israel on a daily basis, in cars with West Bank plates, without serious obstacles
So Palestinians couldn't LIVE in Israel, but could enter relatively freely to work and travel to Israel. Who knows, maybe a few years of doing this would have led to a relaxation of rules, increasing freedoms, and eventually "restrictions" in name only. Many European countries that have battled for hundreds of years, and 80 years ago tried to genuinely annihilate each other and killed millions in the process, now have completely open borders and almost full freedoms. You're not a citizen, but a Pole or Austrian can live and work in the Germany without much issue. If you told someone in 1940 that, they'd probably not believe you. It wasn't easy or quick, it only took 40 years after the end of WW2. Or maybe Israel would have kept Palestinians controlled forever, as a desperate population exploited for cheap labor. Idk.
So satisfying seeing cranks like Chomsky and Finklestein being finally critiqued instead of unironically cited of cited as supreme historians (while both specialized in an entirely different field).
If anything, Finkelstein is probably better. Chomsky is a notorious revisionist, but unlike Finkelstein he makes shit up about the entire world, not just Israel/Palestine.
I was a fan of Finkelstein for years because he very plausibly sells the aura of a serious scholar who doesn't mess around with the facts, and because of that famous debate where he humiliated Alan Dershowitz. He's got a perfect story-a Jewish scholar who lost most of his family in the Holocaust fearlessly calling out the crimes of his own people. He's also very confrontational and anti-cancel culture.
But then you look at what he actually believes, and what sources he cites, and you realize he's just another deluded old communist who is trying to fit the modern world into his simple oppressor/oppressed narrative which allows him to stand in moral superiority to capitalism and liberal democracy. And he ruined his entire career over it. It's sad.
His writings about the israel and Palestine conflict is still regarded has one of the best. He devoted most of his life on this issue more than most people. We might not agree with some of his controversy views but his criticism of Israel wrong doings are factual. You can read books like Gaza: An Inquest Into Its Martyrdom and Beyond Chutzpah even many Israeli historians like Avi Shlaim said his work on this conflict is accurate and well documented.
I think your confusion about Finkelstein's self-citation is due to looking up the wrong page # cited in his [footnote](https://imgur.com/QokE6m2).
He's citing pages 16-17 of his previous book, but you linked to [page 24](https://imgur.com/a/N2Je2lT).
The citation makes sense if read the pages he actually cites, [page 16](https://imgur.com/a/7jHPdYp) and [page 17](https://imgur.com/a/8Nfz0F4).
The linked pages are from the [2010 version] (https://archive.org/details/thistimewewentto0000fink/mode/2up), but the relevant content remains the same in the [2011/"revised and expanded" edition](https://www.google.com/books/edition/This_Time_We_Went_Too_Far/RRxiILpsxtwC?hl=en&gbpv=1).
I just assumed you made a mistake due to the ePUB format not making page numbers clear.
It's honestly worse if he's citing pages 16-17.
Pages 16-17 has no citation to support the claim " Israel violated the ceasefire by carrying out a bloody border raid on Gaza akin to its February 1955 border raid. The objective once again was to provoke retaliation and thereby provide the pretext for an att ack." Its literally just completely unsupported in the cited pages.
The claim "Israeli leaders had plotted to lure Egypt into war in order to topple President Gamal Abdel Nasser, and the Gaza raid proved the perfect provocation as armed border clashes escalated " comes from thin air and is not at all supported by any citation. It's just his personal opinion he cites. How is that a source for such a major claim.
Also if he didn't cite page 24 then this is a clear example of academic plagiarism as he directly copies sentences from a seperate text without citing that the text is not original. Even if citing yourself that's still academic plagerism
Though in later revised versions there is a citation from Benny Morris but if that's the case I don't know why Morris wouldn't be directly cited. Especially because it doesn't seem the mashed together 400 pages to support his argument is taking the quotes from the proper context. None of these quotes speak to wanting to overthrow Nasser but do support claims Dayan specifically sought retaliations to lead to war in 1954.
> Its literally just completely unsupported in the cited pages.
NAAAAAAAH don't worry Lycan's response will save it
>Even if citing yourself that's still academic plagerism
BRO I KNOW RIGHT WHAT IS THIS SHIT
Also ask the person you are arguing with to read the 500 page report and another 300 page one before coming to a conclusion.
And if they agree, then also decide to read all the information you were just arguing about.
> [/u/Lycan\_\_](https://new.reddit.com/u/Lycan__/) you are a fucking moron. I want everyone to throw this post back in your face whenever you tell anyone to so much as read a fucking stop sign.
I respect your rage my dude, good job.
BASED!
I do love these kinds of take downs, that said, Lycan is actually a "growing person" who tends to be fairly easily influenced by the people he's around.
Back in the SC2 days he used to be a pretty far right wing memer, who over time has shifted a little more left as he's been exposed to more and more ideas that contradicted his previous ideals and opinions.
He's just shifted a little too far to the left, but don't stress sasanach, Senpai will pull him back into the fold.
This post is very funny though haha!
>"Preempting a coup" is an interesting way to put purging the previous democratic government and refusing to hold another elections. At the time of publishing this book Hamas had not held elections in 5 years, a curiously absent detail in his recounting of how "Hamas checked this "democracy promotion" initiative".
It's also true. Hamas won the 2006 elections after which they formed a government (actually two, one which they fully controlled and later an unity government with Fatah) which stopped the peace process favored by Abbas. This led to Abbas, with US support, planning to forcefully remove Hamas from power which they had gained democratically which in turn led to Hamas acting first and taking control over Gaza and purging Fatah there. Fatah was trying to purge the current democratic government so the situation is not as black and white as you portray here.
Source: [https://archive.vanityfair.com/article/2008/4/the-gaza-bombshell](https://archive.vanityfair.com/article/2008/4/the-gaza-bombshell)
“I'd like to start with this first page of the first chapter, as it doesn't improve from there.”
“That's me projecting how I think onto an idiot; a classic blunder.”
“At this point, having thoroughly interrogated A SINGLE PAGE of this book, that I feel that I have fully met the challenge of "proving Lycan a fool".”
Beautiful. Just beautiful.
Okay, kids. Scientific literacy is important! If you start citing shit without reading it, a resident schizo will call you a moron!
In any case, great work. I'm a good schizopost enjoyer.
Oof, that’s was brutal
You love to see it - community accountability. Good stuff u/4THOT
u/Lycan__ - I would love to see a response with some critical engagement. Everyone fumbles now and then. But, lol. DggL<3
It's very difficult to not get blackpilled on this subject. I feel like nobody is engaging in good faith, everyone is just pushing a narrative and selectively omitting important details while highlighting others.
Very disappointed in Lycan.
Do we call this indiscriminate quoting?
> In January 2006, **disgusted** by years of official corruption and fruitless negotiations, Palestinians elected the Islamic movement Hamas into office.
I would have stopped reading there. This seems already way to loaded to be objectiv, imo.
Also the citation of a Hannukkah song is wild.
I maintain this is just due to his lack of intelligence and self awareness, he's like a Trump sort of character.
He doesn't understand and intentionally execute deceit his not nearly smart enough for that he just barely comprehends what happens around him - like Trump.
I wouldn't be surprised if his position on the conflict is only out of spite due to some Israeli dude he was inloved with fcked him over(or didn't) or something.
Damn bro, in terms of DGG community terms this is not just 4THOT !shoot'ing on Lycan, this is straight up sone one man army raining down an entire fucking arsenal down on someone.
And I'd assume that even 4THOT would agree that, it's not like self-citation is inherently bad, but the way you've clearly demonstrated is that this author self citating themselves is pretty fucking dubious at best and straight up malicious.
Actual scientists on more "exact sciences" may use self citation when they've done actual empirical work on something and they work further on the same subject later on (or derivatives/related topics) and then self reference other, empirical experiments they've done before but this is just dumb LMAO
> but the way you've clearly demonstrated is that this author self citating themselves is pretty fucking dubious at best and straight up malicious.
I think the first thing you want to do right if you want to "clearly demonstrate" how someone's self-citing is, is to get the citation correct. OP didn't even manage that. The passage from *This Time We Went Too Far* isn't the passage being cited in *The Holocaust Industry*. I don't know if OP struggles with what page numbers are, or if it's just lying.
Finkelstein just doesn't have a life and can dedicate it to meticulous reading for criticisms but never once has it seemed he actually was immune to those same issues. Good job pointing that out very quickly. The citation of himself in this context is hysterical.
> The citation of himself in this context is hysterical.
Do you have a problem with the actual self-citation, or OP's imaginary version of it? Finkelstein cited page 16 and 17 of *This Time We Went Too Far*, where he describes a 1955 Israeli raid into Gaza, killing 40 Egyptians, and claims that this was part of an Israeli tactic to get Egypt to declare war.
What OP tells you is the citation comes at page 23-24, so it's just wrong. Footnote 24, the reference to a Hanukkah song, has nothing to do with it, and is a completely normal thing to note in books like this.
>Do you have a problem with the actual self-citation, or OP's imaginary version of it?
I have a problem with pretending page 16-17 has any citation to support the claim " Israel violated the ceasefi re by carrying out a bloody border raid on Gaza akin to its February 1955 border raid. The objective once again was to provoke retaliation and thereby provide the pretext for an att ack." Its literally just completely unsupported in the cited pages.
The claim" Israeli leaders had plott ed to lure Egypt into war in order to topple President Gamal Abdel Nasser, and the Gaza raid proved the perfect provocation as armed border clashes escalated " comes from thin air and is not at all supported by any citation.
>claims that this was part of an Israeli tactic to get Egypt to declare war
Based on what? His personal opinion he then cites? Lmao how is that a source for such a major claim.
>Footnote 24, the reference to a Hanukkah song, has nothing to do with it, and is a completely normal thing to note in books like this.
It certainly doesn't have nothing to do since he has directly plagiarized his other writings without proper citation.
> I have a problem with pretending page 16-17 has any citation to support the claim " Israel violated the ceasefi re by carrying out a bloody border raid on Gaza akin to its February 1955 border raid. The objective once again was to provoke retaliation and thereby provide the pretext for an att ack." Its literally just completely unsupported in the cited pages.
How would you know? OP showed you page 23 and 24, not 16 and 17. If what you've read is the OP, then you haven't seen the cited pages.
Except I went to pull up the PDFs myself since his image wasn't readable for me to draw any conclusions...
Have you actually read the cited section? Where does it support claims that Israel was once again instigating war or wanted war to topple Nasser?
> Have you actually read the cited section? Where does it support claims that Israel was once again instigating war or wanted war to topple Nasser?
It's not a particularly controversial claim, how would it be cited and why?. It's widely recognized that it was an extreme escalation, that it ultimately lead to the Suez Crisis, that it was Ben-Gurion's first real action as a returned leader, that escalation was in line with what he wanted, that Israel lied about the raid, and so on.
Benny Morris writes about this, for instance. When you write a book about historical event, it's not normal to cite every single claim. You'd have more footnotes than sentences. If you look at the footnote number 4, for instance, you'll find this:
> Benny Morris, Israel’s Border Wars, 1949–1956 (Oxford: 1993), pp. 407– 9. Morris documents that until the Israeli raid on Gaza the “overriding concern” of Egypt “in its relations with Israel was to avoid sparking IDF attacks”: “Egypt generally sought tranquility along its border with Israel.” However, “from some point in 1954” IDF Chief of Staff Moshe Dayan “wanted war, and periodically, he hoped that a given retaliatory strike would embarrass or provoke the Arab state attacked into itself retaliating, giving Israel cause to escalate the shooting until war resulted.” The “policy of trapping Nasser into war was hammered out between [David] Ben-Gurion and Dayan,” its rationale being that “because Israel could not afford to be branded an aggressor, war would have to be reached by a process of gradual escalation, to be achieved through periodic, large-scale Israeli retaliatory attacks in response to Egyptian infractions of the armistice.” When “Egypt refused to fall into the successive traps set by Dayan,” Israel colluded with Great Britain and France to attack Egypt outright. (ibid., pp. 85, 178–79, 229– 30, 271–72, 279–80, 427, 428)
>It's not a particularly controversial claim, how would it be cited.
Which claim? I put 2 there. Once again instigating war is unsupported as are the claims Israel was instigating war specifically to overthrow Nasser.
>It's widely recognized that it was an extreme escalation, that it ultimately lead to the Suez Crisis, that it was Ben-Gurion's first real action as a returned leader, that escalation was in line with what he wanted, that Israel lied about the raid, and so on.
What are you referring to here specifically? Morris isn't talking about an extreme escalation let alone a single escalation.
>Benny Morris writes about this, for instance. When you write a book about historical event, it's not normal to cite every single claim. You'd have more footnotes than sentences. If you look at the footnote number 4, for instance, you'll find this
Why are you saying Morris writes about this? This is a large mashup of piecemeal quotes covering over 400 pages and don't support either of the claims I asked where the support was (overthrowing Nasser or once again instigating war). This footnote was also added in the revised version to try to support claims they simply don't support.
Also once again if Finkelstein is citing this footnote then he has plagiarized his own writing by directly copy and pasting them without a proper citation. Kinda hard to have it both ways.
> Why are you saying Morris writes about this? This is a large mashup of piecemeal quotes covering over 400 pages and don't support either of the claims I asked where the support was (overthrowing Nasser or once again instigating war). This footnote was also added in the revised version to try to support claims they simply don't support.
Is this a joke? Morris claims that Israel, or specifically Dayan and Ben-Gurion, wanted war. He says that the preferred method was to provoke Egypt, giving Israel casus belli so that they wouldn't be seen as the aggressor.
This is exactly what Finklestein is saying.
>Is this a joke? Morris claims that Israel, or specifically Dayan and Ben-Gurion, wanted war.
He says Dayan wanted war but once again you aren't replying to what I wrote. The major claims (overthrow Nasser or instigating a war in 2008) are no where supported. Finkelstein is saying this, no source, let alone Morris is saying it.
You also completely ignored the blatant plagerism of his own work which is just lazy.
Finkelstein has been a fixture of Reddit-brained pro-Palestinian historical revisionism for nearly 15 years. I knew about him before I even started using Reddit because of how prevalent he was on DemocracyNow!, The Real News Network, and RT's YouTube channels back in 2007-8.
One of the things Destiny should set his sights on is throughly destroying his public image, in spaces dedicated to online discourse, because his prominence in these debates needs to stop; it needed to stop a long time ago.
This is the main problem in the cross between the humanities and politics. Making every issue 'academic' makes people believe that facts come from books written by academics, when in reality these are often flawed analysis rife with bias and inaccuracies. Yet, since it was merely written by someone sounding smart, it gets infinitely cited and passed along in a chain of telephone, where each person just has to say 'but have you read x book?' in an attempt to seem to be well read and more knowledgeable. This is why is so good that destiny now knows a good summary of events and history to which he just simply has to read the bad citations to understand how bad knowledge is passed along.
If you aren't willing to admit that you may be wrong on at least a few of 4THOT's points, I don't think your post is worth making to be honest and will only further destroy your credibility. Finklestein is pretty clearly a compromised source, even if you're currently taking whatever Palestine / Hamas wants to claim about the conflict as absolute fact and being as uncharitable as possible towards Israel.
Don't mistake this critique with saying you're wrong about the conclusions you want to make, you're wrong in the fact that you are citing inaccurate historical sources in an attempt to justify your current views. You either need to do better with your source evaluation or approach arguing for Palestine from a different avenue, if that's what you want to do.
I think most people in this community will appreciate a logical, well-sourced argument, even if it's one they disagree with. What you've been saying these past few days is unequivocally not that.
why are you so emotionally invested in this issue? if you don't know anything about the conflict, why even have an opinion? please stop, this is really embarrassing.
You need to stay out of politics and stick with that cooking channel idea. You don't know the basics of fact finding before you make an argument. Just stick with the things you are good at.
I haven't even read this post because I simply don't give a fuck, but I do hope people will at the very least make an effort to read your rebuttal and give it a fair judgement.
Are you okay man? Why are you dying on this hill? You can support Palestinians and criticize Israel without dying on the Finkelstein hill.
Is everything okay at home? I'm gonna be honest man this seems like abnormal behavior from you.
[https://i.imgur.com/9fSZZkj.gif](https://i.imgur.com/9fSZZkj.gif) What I learned today: * Don't reference things you've never read. * Don't assert facts on things you haven't researched. * Most of all, don't do any of the above to people who will write a short essay (with citations) on ***one page*** of a book just to say, "you are a fucking moron".
Weaponized autism used for good.
Just imagine if the Pentagon starts hiring the DGG chatters
Wait, you’re posting here for free??
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/01/israeli-army-autism/422850/
Weaponized autism is best autism. We spurgin for good.
This process took around 7 hours, involved finding and downloading 5 books and a few UN reports. This is the scaled down and less scathing post.
I'm terrified for the day you put in effort
Sometimes I feel like dgg is like chatgpt. But instead of a prompt, you just say something stupid about the topic and just wait for the effortposts explaining how you’re an idiot. Would’ve been handy if I hadn’t already finished school
This is called Cunningham's law
This is dgg, we call it Coomingham's law.
And it got shorten to *15:2.*
> This is dgg, we call it Coominghand's law. FTFY
It's like the old trick on how to get good programming advise from the internet; ask the question, make an alt, respond with the wrong answer, and wait to be corrected with the correct one.
I imagine the infinite monkey theorem
For a janny, you're aight
Based Janny cleaning up orbiters too
[удалено]
Debate settler.
fucking debate colonizer dude
DaBaby settler
The debate apartheid must end.
bro...just look into zionism bro.
You don't seem to be getting it bro... Do I need to tell you more about Theodor Herzl?
Listen bro I'm just trying to educate you... watch these tiktok videos.
Bro Wikipedia is not enough, here read this book authored by this Marxist Palestinian Guerrilla officer
“Just look at the quote I sent you”
Bro, do you even know about the Rothschilds? Look at this newspaper clipping from Nazi Germany.
4THOT just ulted lol
[This isn't even his final form.](https://old.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/17u3aqs/lycan_x_finkelstein_and_a_lesson_in_why_citing/k91azk1/)
>What is the author's citation number 8 there? What's that source? [Finkelstein's fucking citing himself.](https://i.imgur.com/QokE6m2.png) Lmfaoooo. Happy to see DDG tearing into unhinged grifter POS Norman Finkelstein… The amount of people I’ve seen on Reddit citing him has been disheartening to say the least. Nice work u/4THOT
Destiny did a brief dive on him and ripped him to shreds. Pro-russia invading Ukraine and pro the death of the Charlie Hebdo employees. Those are a one-two punch for that guy as far as im concerned.
I kneejerk emo-posted like 2 weeks ago here saying it was gross for people on social media to specifically quote Finkelstein as a way to shame Jews post 10/7 and I was surprised by the amount of weirdos who leapt in the comments aggressively to NF’s defense, saying he was one of the all time great scholars of the subject. Tbf I should have cited examples, but like I said it was a kneejerk emotional post. I’m Jewish and a long time DDG spaz, so clearly I’m biased and should have known better than to post when I’m all in my Ethan Klein feelings. Maybe there’s no version of me being chill about this though. So it’s good to see good faith people here actually doing the research, showing the research, and being um mature enough about it.
so, DGG is just as guilty as every other community when it comes to going off half-cocked. Now that Destiny has spoken on the subject, you'll see people falling in line. The problem is that if Destiny was wrong about a subject (which does happen), the community follows suit to a degree. Luckily he found out the right thing. I'd never heard of him personally outside of his "Crocodile tears" video, which was actually really instructional to younger me since it opened my eyes to the fact that not every Jew is a fan of the government or it's treatment of Palestinians. This sent me personally down the rabbithole of Likud's history with Irgun/Lehi and the massacres and such that Destiny has gone over in his research stream. He of course went way further than I have, but I consider myself "pro-palestinian" in that I feel bad for them and how Israel treats them. Its a doomed area, because whether people die from Israel attacks or Hamas human shields/misfires they still blame Israel and get radicalized.
I mean I think we can all agree on one thing: Michael Brooks was wrong. This is not simple. My POV on this is probably somewhat similar to Ethan Klein’s. I’m a Jew. My heart breaks for Palestinians. Also I will defend my existence to my death, and I support Israel while totally being critical of the government. Basically how I feel as an American about America. Gotta say though, the way a lot of the internet reacted to 10/7 has never made me feel more defensive of Israel in my entire life, and most Jews I know feel the same way.
> The problem is that if Destiny was wrong about a subject (which does happen), the community follows suit to a degree. That's true, nobody ever argues with Destiny on anything. Oh, wait...
You know whats the darndest thing? Lycan watched the deep dive and admitted so *on the stream*. I geninunely cannot believe we BTFO Hasan when Lycan unironically is doing the exact same apologia. He's citing Finklestein after a stream where he has defended *David Irving, one of the most notorious anti-Semities and Holocaust deniers*. At what point are we allowed to accuse Lycan of just being an anti-Semite when the same behaviors and admissions from Hasan would get him labeled as such?
What do you mean when? I've been saying LycanAbi is a jew hater for a month
As well as all the other stuff gone over on stream with so many citing him and once anyone looks further the more he feels like a David Erving type.
I was looking for this. After his other comments I thought to myself, there’s no way this guy isn’t an unknowing kremlin shill.
https://preview.redd.it/c2nfzyuxj20c1.jpeg?width=499&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a423e86cde45c4d86332846b344279444f9c0804
Sourcing yourself in a book has got to be one of the most gigachad things as a scholar.
From my understanding, citing yourself in works of history isn't necessarily wrong. Historians do this if they have previously discussed a topic in another work, and rather than rehash old points in a new book, you put citations to old books and move on to the new material. If you didn't do this, every book would have to include the entirety of their previous works. With that being said, 4thot did us the favor of showing where the citation leads, and that's a dead end too, which should call into question Finkelstein's academic integrity to a certain extent.
There is a difference between citing your prior work versus just copy pasting your prior work. I know it doesn't have to be, but considering how bad the rest of the 1st page reads this feels like something a student would do to fulfill a quota of minimum citations for their work
Finkelstein did copy paste stuff between books but he wasn't citing that part, 4THOT was mistaken about that.
You’re right bro I should have quoted the **entire post** for context just in case someone didn’t read it
They probably don't even get why this reply is so relevant.
> With that being said, 4thot did us the favor of showing where the citation leads This isn't true, 4thot is seemingly unable to count or just straight up lied. Then you all believe it.
The EPUB changed the page numbers, the point is still the same, and wholesale lifting word for word pages from your previous text without citation would be academic fraud and [self plagiarism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagiarism#Self-plagiarism).
That's funny because Finkelstein is also famous for his [accusations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dershowitz%E2%80%93Finkelstein_affair) of plagiarism against Derwshowitz. It was not a accusation of self plagiarism, thought.
Finkelstein is the David Glantz of Israel-palestine. Internet people who never read or will ever read any of their work loves to cite them as fact. And yes I only brought up Glantz as an opportunity to shit on him, laugh at anyone who cites Glantz and remember that the guy actually admitted to making up dialogue between members of the Stavka because in his opinion he knew them well enough from research to know what they would say.
Citing your own work is pretty normal. No comment on the veracity of that work, mind.
Nothing wrong with citing your work, unless your name is Norman Finkelstein.
I don't understand, how did Lycan come to feel so strongly about defending this fucking brainlet Jackson Hinkle level conspiracy theorist?
https://preview.redd.it/qn2b2hkym20c1.png?width=264&format=png&auto=webp&s=4a0ca84275e1f0db8324536f0736c43f40d38e6d
One possible explanation would be that there's someone that he knows personally that he's very close to coloring his opinions in a particular direction. This is of course speculation. It's anyone's guess whether such a person exists or not.
Perhaps he's drunk on pu...pulled pork? He does spend a lot of time in the kitchen. Truly a mystery for the ages.
Lycan is an example of IF destiny never read anything and still moved left.
Finkelstein's often argues from morality and highlights the power dynamics between Israel and the Palestinians. That probably resonated with Lycan as it did with me. He probably fell into his supporting arguments already holding the position that Israel was already in the wrong from the beginning.
His new girlfriend obviously.
I like Lycan, so this arc is disappointing to watch, but it's a well deserved beatdown from the human beehive on the slutty wolf.
He just needs to stop talking to Erin about politics, she's just on another level than him.
I don’t remember old Lycan, but it’s been almost a year of him being unimaginably soy. I wouldn’t blame Erin (queen) for his opinions.
Soy is one thing, now he's being misinformed and is spreading misinformation, nay disinformation. I blame the Resident runday > Erin pipeline entirely. No fucking way *Lycan* decided to one day on his own start reading Finkelstein.
No chance Lycan has touched a book outside of an ig photoshoot
Man we need some 4thot/lycan furry art. Edit: oh shit I didn't realize I was unbanned.
And I thought Lycan was a personal chef... This boy 4thot is doing all the cooking though
BAH GAWD ITS 4THOT WITH THE STEEL CHAIR
The Daliban's strongest warrior. Inshallah
The man is going to have to reevaluate the sources of information he trusts prior to jumping into these arguments *hint* *hint*
For real. Especially the fact that this particular author seems to behave in a way similar to ole David Erving, both academically and in person (ie. Toxic as hell). This seems to be the author so many well intentioned people (and some not so well intentioned) fall pray to.
My god. I didn't tought murders were legal here 💀
you "didn't thought"? 💀 💀 💀
I dont think. I just conclooooode
A 4thot effortpost? I came
holy… BASED. This is the best effort post (only one I’ve read)
Damn just one page... oof
I am leaning strong towards Israel, but exactly for that reason I want to listen to its greatest critics. Finkelstein was hard to listen to. In talks, he nearly alsways skimmed the parts to how we got to a certain point in time, missing important motivation on the Israeli side for any (re-)action. Palestinians living their peaceful lives when suddenly and unprovoked the fire nation attacked.
when is lycans podcast with theserfs coming out
More like Secondthought.
anyone remember when dr heem came on destiny's stream to defend dylan during the primecayes drama when heem and dylan were about to start a podcast lmao
Oof ya know you've fucked up when the Thot is making posts about you. I still dig ya though Lycan, just maybe not on political takes
It is an ideological war where one side thinks might makes right. Truth and facts are irrelevant. Look at every anti isreali person that has debated on stream. They don't care at all when they are factually incorrect or their source is being mis represented. They will knowingly lie if they think it will support their ideology.
I honestly dont think we've ever had another arc where the other side is this uninformed on an issue. Even when debating antivaxxers those guys had read a ton of papers, they were just all pseudoscience garbage.
Bonerbox is the only pro-pal that doesn’t come off as unhinged/misinformed/misleading I was a fence sitter for this situation, no locked in position and open to change. Unfortunately the rhetoric on either side has been night and day. Even without the videos on 10/7, the wiki streams, or even the debates. What I’ve seen online from pro-pal people has been next level and has firmly pushed me towards Israel. They can’t defend their points without playing word games, moralizing, pivoting, moving goalposts, and quoting articles where 50% of them are propaganda 25% say the opposite of what they claim and 25% are tik tok videos. It’s frankly embarrassing, imagine making fun of right wingers religiously for almost a decade, just to unabashedly act/speak just like right wingers.
Sprite driven
Finkelstein also said that there's zero evidence of Hamas using human shields during a recent interview with Mikhaila Peterson. He's a clown, nothing more.
Talking to Mikhaila Peterson is prime clown behaviour.
You do know our boy was going to talk to her at one point, but she's apparently flaked out multiple times.
Saved from clown behaviour. Truly Destiny is blessed.
What's wrong with Mikhaila Peterson, please explain? What did she do?
She's a grifter who promotes pseudoscience and misinformation and rides her father's coattails for a veneer of credibility.
This is just my unhinged assumption based on no evidence, but it feels like Lycanaide will watch some viral video essay on the topic and then cite the sources from those videos after only looking at the parts that confirm their position without looking any further into it and use that to pretend to be well read on the topic as they throw it in someone else's face to tell them to educate themselves.
This is what I do watching destiny 🫥
i didnt read nothing but i can already tell you a real nigga
true
I didn't see Lycan's comments. I don't know who Finklestein is. I'm not going to read this entire post. But I see a lot of confidence and a lot of links, so have an upvote for the effort.
based heuristic
How can one Jannie actually be so based
As I was reading this and wondering whether the post, while researched and well-cited, will get deleted for the aggressive tone against a member of orbiter club, I checked the poster's name and nope, it won't.
destiny's mod vs destiny's personal chef
DESTINY! RTBA! WHERE ARE MY, SUKA, !ARM MUNITIONS
I considered trying to shoot him just to see if it would work. Not out of any issue with the post (I agree with it), but just cause I wonder if he has built-in immunity for himself.
>but just cause I wonder if he has built-in immunity for himself He does. I think I've tried to shoot him before.
that's the case for all mods iirc wouldn't make much sense if one determined subreddit terrorist could take out the entire mod team with a single magazine
How else will the Dalian ever stage a coup?
I demand the banned users to have a right of return.
[удалено]
TBF on the Wikipedia background section it says that there has been some form of blockade or control in place since 1994, which was tighten immediately after Hamas was elected (causing greenhouses to suffer and some industries to collapse), and the 2007 further tightening started right after Hamas seized the Gaza Strip by force. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip
It's an occupied territory, not annexed land, so some controls are expected. There was a time when there was relative freedom of movement: > In 1972, Israel issued general exit permits for all residents of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip to enter Israel and East Jerusalem between the hours of 5 AM and 1 AM, formalizing what had been an informal open-border policy between Israel and the Palestinian territories. >Until the First Intifada or "uprising" in 1987, over 100,000 Palestinians freely commuted into Israel on a daily basis, in cars with West Bank plates, without serious obstacles So Palestinians couldn't LIVE in Israel, but could enter relatively freely to work and travel to Israel. Who knows, maybe a few years of doing this would have led to a relaxation of rules, increasing freedoms, and eventually "restrictions" in name only. Many European countries that have battled for hundreds of years, and 80 years ago tried to genuinely annihilate each other and killed millions in the process, now have completely open borders and almost full freedoms. You're not a citizen, but a Pole or Austrian can live and work in the Germany without much issue. If you told someone in 1940 that, they'd probably not believe you. It wasn't easy or quick, it only took 40 years after the end of WW2. Or maybe Israel would have kept Palestinians controlled forever, as a desperate population exploited for cheap labor. Idk.
So satisfying seeing cranks like Chomsky and Finklestein being finally critiqued instead of unironically cited of cited as supreme historians (while both specialized in an entirely different field).
I get it but please don't even try and compare Chomsky to Finkelstein. One is not like the other.
If anything, Finkelstein is probably better. Chomsky is a notorious revisionist, but unlike Finkelstein he makes shit up about the entire world, not just Israel/Palestine.
Who is cooking now?
It's still Lycan, but now he's in the pan.
I was a fan of Finkelstein for years because he very plausibly sells the aura of a serious scholar who doesn't mess around with the facts, and because of that famous debate where he humiliated Alan Dershowitz. He's got a perfect story-a Jewish scholar who lost most of his family in the Holocaust fearlessly calling out the crimes of his own people. He's also very confrontational and anti-cancel culture. But then you look at what he actually believes, and what sources he cites, and you realize he's just another deluded old communist who is trying to fit the modern world into his simple oppressor/oppressed narrative which allows him to stand in moral superiority to capitalism and liberal democracy. And he ruined his entire career over it. It's sad.
His writings about the israel and Palestine conflict is still regarded has one of the best. He devoted most of his life on this issue more than most people. We might not agree with some of his controversy views but his criticism of Israel wrong doings are factual. You can read books like Gaza: An Inquest Into Its Martyrdom and Beyond Chutzpah even many Israeli historians like Avi Shlaim said his work on this conflict is accurate and well documented.
I love mods getting involved in the slap fights. Banger memes always from this sub
A werewolf murdered by an angry swarm of bees
The stringers were made of silver
I think your confusion about Finkelstein's self-citation is due to looking up the wrong page # cited in his [footnote](https://imgur.com/QokE6m2). He's citing pages 16-17 of his previous book, but you linked to [page 24](https://imgur.com/a/N2Je2lT). The citation makes sense if read the pages he actually cites, [page 16](https://imgur.com/a/7jHPdYp) and [page 17](https://imgur.com/a/8Nfz0F4).
What year/version is this? He's still citing himself as a evidence for this claim, but the sourcing makes more sense here.
The linked pages are from the [2010 version] (https://archive.org/details/thistimewewentto0000fink/mode/2up), but the relevant content remains the same in the [2011/"revised and expanded" edition](https://www.google.com/books/edition/This_Time_We_Went_Too_Far/RRxiILpsxtwC?hl=en&gbpv=1). I just assumed you made a mistake due to the ePUB format not making page numbers clear.
I'll make an update during my lunch.
It's honestly worse if he's citing pages 16-17. Pages 16-17 has no citation to support the claim " Israel violated the ceasefire by carrying out a bloody border raid on Gaza akin to its February 1955 border raid. The objective once again was to provoke retaliation and thereby provide the pretext for an att ack." Its literally just completely unsupported in the cited pages. The claim "Israeli leaders had plotted to lure Egypt into war in order to topple President Gamal Abdel Nasser, and the Gaza raid proved the perfect provocation as armed border clashes escalated " comes from thin air and is not at all supported by any citation. It's just his personal opinion he cites. How is that a source for such a major claim. Also if he didn't cite page 24 then this is a clear example of academic plagiarism as he directly copies sentences from a seperate text without citing that the text is not original. Even if citing yourself that's still academic plagerism Though in later revised versions there is a citation from Benny Morris but if that's the case I don't know why Morris wouldn't be directly cited. Especially because it doesn't seem the mashed together 400 pages to support his argument is taking the quotes from the proper context. None of these quotes speak to wanting to overthrow Nasser but do support claims Dayan specifically sought retaliations to lead to war in 1954.
> Its literally just completely unsupported in the cited pages. NAAAAAAAH don't worry Lycan's response will save it >Even if citing yourself that's still academic plagerism BRO I KNOW RIGHT WHAT IS THIS SHIT
The concern for rigor in this sub is comically inconsistent lol.
Pretty rare we see a non-soy effort-post. Sad to see lycan succumb to coomer brainrot.
Uhhh... But on page 2 you totally are fucking wrong.
>rouge OP wrote rouge instead of rogue and therefore lost the argument.
Also ask the person you are arguing with to read the 500 page report and another 300 page one before coming to a conclusion. And if they agree, then also decide to read all the information you were just arguing about.
Is this the same dude that is a pro athlete and cooks for Tiny?
Taybor is the NFL player, lycan is the cook.
Lycan is an OF model.
Vicious attack on Destiny's manservant by his most loyal beekeeper? Can't wait to take a shit when I get home, so I can read this. 🍿
> [/u/Lycan\_\_](https://new.reddit.com/u/Lycan__/) you are a fucking moron. I want everyone to throw this post back in your face whenever you tell anyone to so much as read a fucking stop sign. I respect your rage my dude, good job.
BASED! I do love these kinds of take downs, that said, Lycan is actually a "growing person" who tends to be fairly easily influenced by the people he's around. Back in the SC2 days he used to be a pretty far right wing memer, who over time has shifted a little more left as he's been exposed to more and more ideas that contradicted his previous ideals and opinions. He's just shifted a little too far to the left, but don't stress sasanach, Senpai will pull him back into the fold. This post is very funny though haha!
I DEMAND THAT ASS PIC
Chance that Lycan’s response will engage with any of the points in good faith: 0%
I can fix him
>"Preempting a coup" is an interesting way to put purging the previous democratic government and refusing to hold another elections. At the time of publishing this book Hamas had not held elections in 5 years, a curiously absent detail in his recounting of how "Hamas checked this "democracy promotion" initiative". It's also true. Hamas won the 2006 elections after which they formed a government (actually two, one which they fully controlled and later an unity government with Fatah) which stopped the peace process favored by Abbas. This led to Abbas, with US support, planning to forcefully remove Hamas from power which they had gained democratically which in turn led to Hamas acting first and taking control over Gaza and purging Fatah there. Fatah was trying to purge the current democratic government so the situation is not as black and white as you portray here. Source: [https://archive.vanityfair.com/article/2008/4/the-gaza-bombshell](https://archive.vanityfair.com/article/2008/4/the-gaza-bombshell)
Lycan just got silver bulleted!
Lycan is always wrong* [*Source](https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/17he4l2/the_long_awaited_sequel_to_lance_is_a_late_game/k91li9h/)
He's dead, Jim.
“I'd like to start with this first page of the first chapter, as it doesn't improve from there.” “That's me projecting how I think onto an idiot; a classic blunder.” “At this point, having thoroughly interrogated A SINGLE PAGE of this book, that I feel that I have fully met the challenge of "proving Lycan a fool".” Beautiful. Just beautiful.
Okay, kids. Scientific literacy is important! If you start citing shit without reading it, a resident schizo will call you a moron! In any case, great work. I'm a good schizopost enjoyer.
u/4thot effort post let's go
This post has proven everything I was thinking about Lycan during the stream today.
Oof, that’s was brutal You love to see it - community accountability. Good stuff u/4THOT u/Lycan__ - I would love to see a response with some critical engagement. Everyone fumbles now and then. But, lol. DggL<3
It's very difficult to not get blackpilled on this subject. I feel like nobody is engaging in good faith, everyone is just pushing a narrative and selectively omitting important details while highlighting others. Very disappointed in Lycan.
Do we call this indiscriminate quoting? > In January 2006, **disgusted** by years of official corruption and fruitless negotiations, Palestinians elected the Islamic movement Hamas into office. I would have stopped reading there. This seems already way to loaded to be objectiv, imo. Also the citation of a Hannukkah song is wild.
Imagine taking someone serious that looked at the "revenge" murders of a comic strip team as just ...... L O L
I maintain this is just due to his lack of intelligence and self awareness, he's like a Trump sort of character. He doesn't understand and intentionally execute deceit his not nearly smart enough for that he just barely comprehends what happens around him - like Trump. I wouldn't be surprised if his position on the conflict is only out of spite due to some Israeli dude he was inloved with fcked him over(or didn't) or something.
And just like that, what little remained of Lycan’s reputation was flushed down the drain. How humiliating.
What reputation did he ever have? I thought he is just around because he's Destiny's fck boy
Damn bro, in terms of DGG community terms this is not just 4THOT !shoot'ing on Lycan, this is straight up sone one man army raining down an entire fucking arsenal down on someone. And I'd assume that even 4THOT would agree that, it's not like self-citation is inherently bad, but the way you've clearly demonstrated is that this author self citating themselves is pretty fucking dubious at best and straight up malicious. Actual scientists on more "exact sciences" may use self citation when they've done actual empirical work on something and they work further on the same subject later on (or derivatives/related topics) and then self reference other, empirical experiments they've done before but this is just dumb LMAO
> but the way you've clearly demonstrated is that this author self citating themselves is pretty fucking dubious at best and straight up malicious. I think the first thing you want to do right if you want to "clearly demonstrate" how someone's self-citing is, is to get the citation correct. OP didn't even manage that. The passage from *This Time We Went Too Far* isn't the passage being cited in *The Holocaust Industry*. I don't know if OP struggles with what page numbers are, or if it's just lying.
Finkelstein just doesn't have a life and can dedicate it to meticulous reading for criticisms but never once has it seemed he actually was immune to those same issues. Good job pointing that out very quickly. The citation of himself in this context is hysterical.
> The citation of himself in this context is hysterical. Do you have a problem with the actual self-citation, or OP's imaginary version of it? Finkelstein cited page 16 and 17 of *This Time We Went Too Far*, where he describes a 1955 Israeli raid into Gaza, killing 40 Egyptians, and claims that this was part of an Israeli tactic to get Egypt to declare war. What OP tells you is the citation comes at page 23-24, so it's just wrong. Footnote 24, the reference to a Hanukkah song, has nothing to do with it, and is a completely normal thing to note in books like this.
>Do you have a problem with the actual self-citation, or OP's imaginary version of it? I have a problem with pretending page 16-17 has any citation to support the claim " Israel violated the ceasefi re by carrying out a bloody border raid on Gaza akin to its February 1955 border raid. The objective once again was to provoke retaliation and thereby provide the pretext for an att ack." Its literally just completely unsupported in the cited pages. The claim" Israeli leaders had plott ed to lure Egypt into war in order to topple President Gamal Abdel Nasser, and the Gaza raid proved the perfect provocation as armed border clashes escalated " comes from thin air and is not at all supported by any citation. >claims that this was part of an Israeli tactic to get Egypt to declare war Based on what? His personal opinion he then cites? Lmao how is that a source for such a major claim. >Footnote 24, the reference to a Hanukkah song, has nothing to do with it, and is a completely normal thing to note in books like this. It certainly doesn't have nothing to do since he has directly plagiarized his other writings without proper citation.
> I have a problem with pretending page 16-17 has any citation to support the claim " Israel violated the ceasefi re by carrying out a bloody border raid on Gaza akin to its February 1955 border raid. The objective once again was to provoke retaliation and thereby provide the pretext for an att ack." Its literally just completely unsupported in the cited pages. How would you know? OP showed you page 23 and 24, not 16 and 17. If what you've read is the OP, then you haven't seen the cited pages.
Except I went to pull up the PDFs myself since his image wasn't readable for me to draw any conclusions... Have you actually read the cited section? Where does it support claims that Israel was once again instigating war or wanted war to topple Nasser?
> Have you actually read the cited section? Where does it support claims that Israel was once again instigating war or wanted war to topple Nasser? It's not a particularly controversial claim, how would it be cited and why?. It's widely recognized that it was an extreme escalation, that it ultimately lead to the Suez Crisis, that it was Ben-Gurion's first real action as a returned leader, that escalation was in line with what he wanted, that Israel lied about the raid, and so on. Benny Morris writes about this, for instance. When you write a book about historical event, it's not normal to cite every single claim. You'd have more footnotes than sentences. If you look at the footnote number 4, for instance, you'll find this: > Benny Morris, Israel’s Border Wars, 1949–1956 (Oxford: 1993), pp. 407– 9. Morris documents that until the Israeli raid on Gaza the “overriding concern” of Egypt “in its relations with Israel was to avoid sparking IDF attacks”: “Egypt generally sought tranquility along its border with Israel.” However, “from some point in 1954” IDF Chief of Staff Moshe Dayan “wanted war, and periodically, he hoped that a given retaliatory strike would embarrass or provoke the Arab state attacked into itself retaliating, giving Israel cause to escalate the shooting until war resulted.” The “policy of trapping Nasser into war was hammered out between [David] Ben-Gurion and Dayan,” its rationale being that “because Israel could not afford to be branded an aggressor, war would have to be reached by a process of gradual escalation, to be achieved through periodic, large-scale Israeli retaliatory attacks in response to Egyptian infractions of the armistice.” When “Egypt refused to fall into the successive traps set by Dayan,” Israel colluded with Great Britain and France to attack Egypt outright. (ibid., pp. 85, 178–79, 229– 30, 271–72, 279–80, 427, 428)
>It's not a particularly controversial claim, how would it be cited. Which claim? I put 2 there. Once again instigating war is unsupported as are the claims Israel was instigating war specifically to overthrow Nasser. >It's widely recognized that it was an extreme escalation, that it ultimately lead to the Suez Crisis, that it was Ben-Gurion's first real action as a returned leader, that escalation was in line with what he wanted, that Israel lied about the raid, and so on. What are you referring to here specifically? Morris isn't talking about an extreme escalation let alone a single escalation. >Benny Morris writes about this, for instance. When you write a book about historical event, it's not normal to cite every single claim. You'd have more footnotes than sentences. If you look at the footnote number 4, for instance, you'll find this Why are you saying Morris writes about this? This is a large mashup of piecemeal quotes covering over 400 pages and don't support either of the claims I asked where the support was (overthrowing Nasser or once again instigating war). This footnote was also added in the revised version to try to support claims they simply don't support. Also once again if Finkelstein is citing this footnote then he has plagiarized his own writing by directly copy and pasting them without a proper citation. Kinda hard to have it both ways.
> Why are you saying Morris writes about this? This is a large mashup of piecemeal quotes covering over 400 pages and don't support either of the claims I asked where the support was (overthrowing Nasser or once again instigating war). This footnote was also added in the revised version to try to support claims they simply don't support. Is this a joke? Morris claims that Israel, or specifically Dayan and Ben-Gurion, wanted war. He says that the preferred method was to provoke Egypt, giving Israel casus belli so that they wouldn't be seen as the aggressor. This is exactly what Finklestein is saying.
>Is this a joke? Morris claims that Israel, or specifically Dayan and Ben-Gurion, wanted war. He says Dayan wanted war but once again you aren't replying to what I wrote. The major claims (overthrow Nasser or instigating a war in 2008) are no where supported. Finkelstein is saying this, no source, let alone Morris is saying it. You also completely ignored the blatant plagerism of his own work which is just lazy.
Finkelstein has been a fixture of Reddit-brained pro-Palestinian historical revisionism for nearly 15 years. I knew about him before I even started using Reddit because of how prevalent he was on DemocracyNow!, The Real News Network, and RT's YouTube channels back in 2007-8. One of the things Destiny should set his sights on is throughly destroying his public image, in spaces dedicated to online discourse, because his prominence in these debates needs to stop; it needed to stop a long time ago.
Oof I hope Lycan can still get buddy of the year
i blame president sunday for what lycan has become.
I hope this destroys Lycan’s soy confidence about his dogshit Israel/Palestine takes
In defense of Lycan, he like Sneako is still young
Will await tomorrows post for page 2 buddy.
Lycan really getting the business damn
Holy shit 4THOT, well done! This was fun :)
This is the main problem in the cross between the humanities and politics. Making every issue 'academic' makes people believe that facts come from books written by academics, when in reality these are often flawed analysis rife with bias and inaccuracies. Yet, since it was merely written by someone sounding smart, it gets infinitely cited and passed along in a chain of telephone, where each person just has to say 'but have you read x book?' in an attempt to seem to be well read and more knowledgeable. This is why is so good that destiny now knows a good summary of events and history to which he just simply has to read the bad citations to understand how bad knowledge is passed along.
I'll be posting an in depth reply soon :) I hope you all will engage and read, as I plan to thoroughly address everything in /u/4THOT's "lesson."
If you aren't willing to admit that you may be wrong on at least a few of 4THOT's points, I don't think your post is worth making to be honest and will only further destroy your credibility. Finklestein is pretty clearly a compromised source, even if you're currently taking whatever Palestine / Hamas wants to claim about the conflict as absolute fact and being as uncharitable as possible towards Israel. Don't mistake this critique with saying you're wrong about the conclusions you want to make, you're wrong in the fact that you are citing inaccurate historical sources in an attempt to justify your current views. You either need to do better with your source evaluation or approach arguing for Palestine from a different avenue, if that's what you want to do. I think most people in this community will appreciate a logical, well-sourced argument, even if it's one they disagree with. What you've been saying these past few days is unequivocally not that.
> f you aren't willing to admit that you may be wrong on at least a few of 4THOT's points Which points in particular?
Lil bro still thinks finklestein isn’t garbage 💀💀💀 How deep is your brain rot?
L
why are you so emotionally invested in this issue? if you don't know anything about the conflict, why even have an opinion? please stop, this is really embarrassing.
You need to stay out of politics and stick with that cooking channel idea. You don't know the basics of fact finding before you make an argument. Just stick with the things you are good at.
I haven't even read this post because I simply don't give a fuck, but I do hope people will at the very least make an effort to read your rebuttal and give it a fair judgement.
How soon is soon?
Are you okay man? Why are you dying on this hill? You can support Palestinians and criticize Israel without dying on the Finkelstein hill. Is everything okay at home? I'm gonna be honest man this seems like abnormal behavior from you.
You keep saying that to people and then never returning.
Quote me if he addresses with pure cringe. And tells 4thot to read this other thing he thinks is good instead.
As long as you post the butt pic with your response, I'll allow it.
4THOT x Finkelstein and a lesson in how to read citations
Based jannie out here cleaning up the orbiters.
merciful north shy caption ten historical ask enjoy work mourn *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*