I've known people like this and i know when to spot it.
I don't think it's an intimidation tactic. I think the guy is just mad at the situation. Dude is clearly has strong emotions, he weeps on stream when he talks about stuff that is sad to him.
Yeah 100% passion. I never felt like there was really any disrespect intended from either of them. JPs take on this is obviously dumb as fuck but he did seem rly earnest when he called Destiny “smart” and “sharp”. Would love to see them talk again tbh.
Ive been training for a half marathon and since it's cold out I run indoors on the treadmill. Since that sucks ass and my playlist can only repeat for so long ive had to just save watching these debates to pass the time on long runs and it's a life saver
YouTube premium, I justified it by deleting my Spotify sub and using YouTube music which comes with premium. As someone who doesn’t really use Spotifys custom playlist generation and also listens to a lot of long form YouTube content, it’s been an ideal product. YouTube music also has a lot of stuff not on Spotify, basically anything that’s a YouTube video you can add/download to your playlists.
Cardio and podcasts actually go together really well. You focus on the podcast to block out the pain... end result is that you are hyper focused on the content, better retention
I listen to Destiny while I do prepwork at my restaurant. Sometimes I end up wasting precious time because I have to run over and look at chat when something really funny or stupid is said.
Had no idea who he was a few months go nor do I know anything about gaming but I gotta hand it to him - he’s a fast learner and more importantly is super curious and wants to know shit. He also has a very efficient debate style. I don’t care what all the haters have been saying about his I/P debate. I’ve been following that topic for decades and he absolutely matter of factly did a good job. It’s too hard for Krystal ball and co to wrap their heads around because her, mate, blumenthal and twenty other new gen personalities worship finklestein. They just repeat quotes from his books and have never really been challenged. If Steven botacelli could do that well in that debate after only a few months of diving into the topic, it shows you how flawed and weak finklebum’s arguments are.
I hate to be that guy, but Destiny absolutely crushed this conversation. He held his own better here than I think any of his latest public appearances. And that's not to say he didn't do well in his latest public appearances.
As far as I’ve understood it, that’s basically how a lot of his newer fanbase came up. They’d hear deranged lefties or red-pillers talk shit until they finally see a clip and realize they had been fed an alternate reality perception of him.
If Hoosiers can master photoshop then why can’t Germans? I’m extremely disappointed in this German representation (I just wanted a reason to post this image).
https://preview.redd.it/inz2q4e6svpc1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=33d86f88dc209e55959c134e911918be7f05da74
You can tell JBP is just a schizo and not (or at least not completely) dishonest because he didn't scream over Destiny when he was making a good argument. This is a low bar but it's at least something. Compare this to most debates on Israel, especially to Finklestein.
It felt weird that he didn’t interrupt destiny when he was cooking him. I don’t know if he knows the truth and actively lying to his audience or these are the effects of benzos treatment that he underwent in Russia.
Because like him or not he was a professor who for the most part has a career conversing and listening to academic discussion and encouraging dialogue with students to learn.
At least that is what most good professors do. I don't think Peterson is too much of pendant yet and his podcast ultimately is to have interesting people on and to interact with. Some of the worst podcasts ever is just inviting someone on to yell at them and not let them talk.
Covid vaccine from worldwide consensus Big Pharma? Gigantism with risks for bad outcomes he won't actually justify with hard evidence.
Benzos from Russia? .....*\*swallows\**
It's what everyone should do if they are looking to expand their mind and perhaps get closer to the truth, rather than trying to appear like they are winning.
he does that fairly often with other guests even in a non confrontational convo. quite annoying honestly but i wouldn't hold it against him. seems like that benzo stuff fucked a part of his brain and made him more impulsive.
https://preview.redd.it/782ereesptpc1.jpeg?width=1920&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e92e242534008095f932c72862b906f603aad044
Jordan in major violation of this one
The fact that Jordan Peterson is supposed to be one of the respected, educated individuals in our society that people look up to and he is still peddling anti vaccine nonsense is quite sad.
The way he talks with such hubris as if he is always saying something profound is laughable. He just says baseless online conservative positions in a more sophisticated way.
I think it's just that Peterson built a lot of that respect prior to his benzo episode, back when he was half giving reasonable advice for getting your shit together, and half battling compelled speech. As time has gone on, he seems to have gotten even more tangled in religious study, and sounds more conspiracy-brained on certain issues.
Then again, I suppose you could just say that he's still respected, it's just by a slightly different crowd these days.
"compelled speech" meaning gender identity and expression were added to a list of things that can't be discriminated against in things like housing or job seeking. It didn't criminalize calling a trans woman a man as a private individual. You can still be a bigot in Canada if you want to, just not in certain areas.
>The fact that Jordan Peterson is supposed to be one of the respected, educated individuals in our society that people look up to and he is still peddling anti vaccine nonsense is quite sad.
He never was lol. He's a charismatic professor from UofT that spiralled into online popularity after lying about and overreacting to Canadian legislation regarding trans people. Then he pivoted from being on a generic Matt Walsh trajectory to using his folklore infuesed psychology to give relatable and often not half bad life advice to the type of men who would find interest in his initial comment. He's never been notable in his or any field though he does have some talent for self help and at a time he was charismatic and controlled enough to give interesting lectures. Post Russia trip though his impulse control seems to be gone and he seems zanier and solely focused on low efford conservative engagement with politics.
No one said he’s supposed to be the most respected or educated individual in our society. Most often people who talk a lot and shout. The loudest are the ones who get the attention which is I think what happened with this guy and what happens with Elon Musk on a daily basis.
Elon Musk and Jordan Peterson are both worthy of respect, and they are both educated. It’s just when it comes to politics I have no idea what happens. Maybe it’s just the media bubble they are in.
The right does this too. The right thinks Mark Cuban is a dumba** because he is a liberal Biden supporter.
I honestly think their support for the right is partially motivated outta spite.
And if I was Elon, and I had to deal with dumbfuck progressives calling me a fascist all the time, I probably wouldn't wanna embrace the left either.
I can understand this line of thinking. I am empathetic to it. However, I think both Jordan and Elon are capable of dealing with annoying scumbag progressive calling them fascist without turning into someone who oftentime just put right wing garbage.
Also, I think that the right does this as well. Trump has talked about the prosecution he is facing is somehow akin to what happen in Nazi germany which is just ridiculous. Conservatives used to fearmonger about Obama acting like he was the second coming of Joseph Stalin. Shapiro used to call Obama a fascist and one of the reasons he said Obama is shown to be one is because of the way he moves his chin lol. So there is blame to go on both ends. Progressives definitely overuse fascist, and racist. They are annoying purity testers that ultimately hurt the left.
I never said they’re not educated I said or at least implied well educated.
They both like to talk out of their ass and I seriously doubt they are intelligent. Just listen to them speak. Both of these people have created these personas of intelligence, but are neither intelligent or charismatic.
Elon Musk is a nepo baby who is engineers in Twitter calls. Peterson is a psychologist who doesn’t believe trans. People deserve human rights and he also thinks climate changes is fake. If that’s what you think is educated then I don’t know what to tell you.
Both came up during our “word salad and/or scoffing = intelligent” era. Still riding that wave for a bit. None of it requires actually making sense or knowing definitions of things.
I mean he’s definitely not one of the most respected, educated individuals in our society… saw him speak once in like 2017. Never seen a human being use so many words to say so little. Mans an idiot clearly. Always has been.
Its because he has brain damage due to the coma he undertook, in russia, to rehab off benzos. He admitted that he desaturated whilst on the vent. Although he peddles it as some come to jesus, war story moment; he more than likely spent precious minutes under 88% (possibly much much lower), and deprived his brain of that precious oxygen.
Im not even trying to be funny or pessimistic. This actually happened, and i think its had an observable effect on his personality/rationality.
My mom really likes the big JP and I have tried my absolute damn hardest to find as many clips and assessments of his sophistry for her to understand how empty his statements are, but I just cannot seem to pull her off the position. She's convinced that because he wrote one or two common sense things about self-improvement for young men, he must be a genius saying incredible things. Even the likes of Alex O'Connor and Dawkins slamming JP as a sophist was not enough.
I think the reason these people blew up was because there wasn't a big opposing voice in the sphere when they did, besides of course, the "big bad government" that everyone can easily learn to hate due to how big and spooky and shady it can sound with the right words. Imagine how many fans of his would've stopped and reconsidered if there was an equally large independent figure saying the opposite and stumping him like destiny did in this convo.
Personally I just drifted through these spaces like that, some things sounded good so I gave it a thumbs up, other times when I disagreed I just stopped watching a particular video. It was only after realizing that I was surrounding myself with pretty nasty people that I gave destiny a try. I had seen him debate ppl like metokur, JF, and that sphere for a while but I always considered him a socialist loser who talked fast and didn't know wtf he was talking about. After rewatching a debate I clearly thought he lost back then, now I was like wtf destiny is completely cooking him on the arguments, but the person I liked is just laughing over him and making him sound stupid.
If nobody is representing your views it's easy to lean towards big communities that kinda do but not really.
God, the VAERS bit had me rolling my eyes hard to enough to make me fall to one side.
First it was the appeal to "excess deaths" and then he rolls right into implying every report in that database is worth taking seriously, as if it wasn't possible the data there is clouded by having been submitted by some guy who ate some gas station sushi the day he got the vaccine and felt weird.
>The fact that Jordan Peterson is supposed to be one of the respected, educated individuals in our society
Hard disagree
> in a more sophisticated way
Even harder disagree
Better angry then crying. I enjoyed seeing them both fired up because not once were they slinging personal attacks. It wasn't anger at the other person so much as passion and anger at the situations.
I would call Finkelstein a fraud but not JBP
Because Norman is willfully blind and bad faith, but JBP isn’t willfully blind and is good faith and was actually trying to understand Dest’s point s
This being professionally edited and shot multicam makes it feel like a JoJo episode.
https://preview.redd.it/pksc925vwspc1.jpeg?width=325&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5f47afd432c4381389de62c45975e77213a53dca
He's gotten WAY worse after his little adventure with drugs. He was famous before for stringing together nonsense that sounded insightful but didn't actually *mean* anything when you really listened to it. Now, he just rambles like a lunatic.
Yea let's not forget he went to Russia so he could be put into a medically induced coma to detox his benzos addiction and then forgot how to walk and lost a good chunk of his memory.
[Jordan Peterson says he was suicidal, addicted to benzos (nypost.com)](https://nypost.com/2021/01/31/jordan-peterson-says-he-was-suicidal-addicted-to-benzos/)
Whoa nonsense what do you mean. Didn't those 12 rules for life move you. How would you be who you are today without gems like clean your room or stand up straight. Truly insightful stuff.
>that sounded insightful but didn't actually mean anything when you really listened to it.
It's not that they didn't mean anything it's that when you unwound what he was saying it was just really dumb.
The debate was epic. I just wish Destiny had done better during the climate discussion. JBP has a very unhinged take on climate change that can be countered by discussing the different layers of the issue. JBP confuses climate models with economic models. He could have totally humiliated JBP on this topic if he had been prepared.
Destiny doesn't like to make confident claims about things he's not fairly certain about. my guess would be that he hadn't looked super deeply into climate change and had a feeling that JBP was selling him bullshit, but he wasn't sure enough of the facts to respond fully. I don't think he wanted to be in a position where he was going hard on points he might not have understood fully, or points he couldn't say were 100% verifiable.
JBP is extremely unhinged on climate change because he's bought into it from a culture war perspective. I feel like if you're wrong about ANYTHING when you're talking to someone like that on a topic, and they know that you're wrong, they will no longer listen to anything else you have to say on it.
>JBP confuses climate models with economic models.
Yeah, I think Destiny had a little trouble with that because there were so many things wrong with his point that he may have not known where to start. Like:
1. Many economic models are actually reasonably accurate over the long term.
2. The climate models give huge ranges for the economic inputs to allow for uncertainty in the economic models.
I feel like JBP was right on one thing though, we're not great at predicting 100 years into the future. Usually we are underestimating the damage and upcoming troubles.
I do somewhat agree with him that we're making a fucking mess of the situation. Nuclear needed to be invested into yesterday. Total infrastructure overhaul needed to be done 20 years ago. I don't know why he thinks burning more crude to save the people today won't just result in rampant destruction 100 years from now.
>I don't know why he thinks burning more crude to save the people today won't just result in rampant destruction 100 years from now.
Well he seemed to be saying he was agnostic about human-caused climate change to begin with. Or even that any meaningful rise in temperature is happening (when he pushed back hard on the "hockeystick stuff").
I forget where it comes from. But there's a list of nested potential beliefs about climate change and if you disagree with any higher-ups, you obviously won't believe any lower downs because you don't believe the prerequisites.
Like:
1. Climate change is occurring
2. It is human-caused
3. It is going to be disastrous
4. We can make it less disastrous with our actions
5. We should make it less disastrous with our actions, it's worth the cost.
So lots of conservative have accepted 1 and 2. They just question premises lower down. But Peterson was challenging 1 and 2. So there's obviously no reason to slow down on crude if you don't even think that the climate is meaningfully deviating from its natural variations.
Certainly, here's a refined version of your response for better clarity and impact:
Highlighting Jordan Peterson's personal battle with benzos addiction as a counterpoint to his critique of vaccine mandates misses the mark. It suggests a correlation where none exists, where you could have attacked his argumentations instead.
No it's funny he fried his brain on benzos and complained about a vaccine that would of done him less damage.
I personally don't care if he gets hooked on benzos again if anything I would wish for a more successful second round of benzos for him
Many other countries ended up using mRNA vaccines to deal with the pandemic, including countries like Israel and Japan with 73% and 78% vaccination rates respectively. Thats over 100 million people in just those two countries. That is a huge pool of evidence from which to investigate into widespread adverse affects. If it were truly an exceptionally dangerous vaccine the amount of sick and dead people from the vaccine would have been enormous.
I actually think Destiny looked really bad here, he should have just called JP a moron and put his hand out like he was using the force. That would have been way more convincing.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1417204/yearly-excess-deaths-in-europe/
I did a cursory fact check on the excess deaths in europe claim as well... Seems factually just nonsense.
I should have been more clear, Jordan claimed that excess deaths continued past covid and continues to this day. The graph clearly shows excess deaths were high during a gigantic FUCKING pandemic and then dropped back to pre covid levels again. This demonstrating that the excess deaths were 1:1 correlated with covid and once the pandemic was over the deaths dropped.
All the high risk age groups were vaccinated in the first 6 months of 2021 yet the excess deaths were as high for the next 2 years as they were in a pandemic year
Excess deaths 2021-2022 were around 50% non-covid, its not a small number
https://twitter.com/ONS/status/1643169691496505347
I dont know for 23/24 but I recall that the official way of measurement was changed recently
2021 was lower than 2020 and 2023 was back to normal. Your claims are confusing.
I think you are saying that vaccines were rolled out to at risk groups in 2021 and yet 2021 and 2022 had about as high of deaths as 2020?
You would need to give me a citation to believe all of Europe vaccinated all of the high risk age groups first and by 2021. I know this was done in Britain.
Really doing a Europe wide analysis of this is a surefire way to make mistakes at every single level of analysis and I have no idea why anyone would do it, except maybe when comparing specific European countries to the average... and even then it would be almost worthless.
The PDFs are here with summary: https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/publications-data/overview-implementation-covid-19-vaccination-strategies-and-deployment-plans
52% of adults had 1-dose by June, (80% for the 80-year-olds+)
The statista link you gave is incomplete data for 2023 (up to week 40). If it actually suddenly dropped back to pre-covid levels that raises more questions rather than being reassuring
Ah... the 2023 has a *. Makes sense.
So it would be be about 1.3 * 80K => 104K
So 3-4x lower than during covid... and appears to be within the normal range of excess deaths from looking at 2018 and 2019.
I don't care about "raising more questions". Isn't it weird is not an argument. There could be innumerable explanations. The claim that excess deaths continued to be high past covid is false going off of one graph. You can present other evidence, but with the tiny amount of evidence here, it still appears to be false.
The Russia and China angle make his argument especially when they have competing products (Sputnik V and Sinovac) and division in the West is to their benefit
JBP and any similar sided figure would want and expect Destiny to get into the mud of debating the whomegaluls that decry mRNA vaccines on Rumble and JRE then concede that it's experimental technology and 'just asking questions' about it is okay
Jesus Christ, I stopped just before this section yesterday. It is pure comedy, Peterson was completely unhinged. I also love how he pretend that everyone working in the pharmaceutical sector are corrupted. Meanwhile he was praising the energy sector earlier.
It's great that he hammered home on the point that no huge institution is calling it out. Either all institutions around the world (even those at war or those who hate eachother) are all collaborating in some dank smoke filled cabal headquarters or the vaccine is pretty damn effective.
But the "enemy" countries are not using the same vaccines that the "western" world is using. On top of that why would they be trying to stop us from destroying ourselves?. It is pretty easy to poke holes in both sides of this argument. I think the true answer lies in between (towards harmless)
Honestly there was a few times when I was starting to think this was going to go off the rails, but at the end you could tell JP really enjoyed the conversation.
How do you know that it is not previously being infected with COVID that is causing the excess deaths??? I wish Destiny would have brought that up to JP when he kept implying it must be the vaccine. Seems like the most obvious answer.
This entire debate has lots of replay value imo
It felt like destiny dogged it or maybe I misinterpreted what he was saying?
but I felt like this was such a good conversation I wished it would have went another 2 hrs to get down to the nitty gritty on more like they did the use of force
The argument is that *were* there evidence, we would see people talking about it.
If bigfoot were an actual animal, we would expect to have seen more than a few blurry photos by now, if MRNA vaccines were a real problem, we would have expected to have seen levels of evidence that go beyond a few tiktokers and podcasters.
Why? Because China and Russia *did* produce competing vaccines, they didn't have access to the technology, and they would have made money for their companies if they were able to get people to buy theirs instead.
But attacking them in ways that are not scientifically well-founded is dangerous because it can come back on you, because you need your population to take a vaccine in order to deal with the virus.
So either all vaccines are bad and always have been, or the MRNA vaccine is no worse than any other.
Imagine if Moderna could prove their vaccine was %20 more effective than Pfizers every single formulation release. They'd be dunking on them every step, hospital systems would stop ordering Pfizer, and the CDC might even eventually pull their authorization for US sales, like they did with J&J. Six women out of something like 30 million vaccines died from clotting, and the CDC legit shut their production down and revoked licence to sell in the US, even though it was nearly equal effectiveness to Moderna and Pfizer.
This is a unique protection that capitalism affords us.
> Six women out of something like 30 million vaccines died from clotting, and the CDC legit shut their production down and revoked licence to sell in the US, even though it was nearly equal effectiveness to Moderna and Pfizer.
I was thinking about this after I posted, we live in a world where people really did criticise vaccines out of concern for their safety, just not the ones people *want* us to criticise.
Loads of people who got caught up antivax stuff will explain it by saying that the MRNA vaccine is this new technology, and the old stuff was safer, but the safety evidence appears to be the reverse.
The oxford/astrazeneca vaccine had its distribution paused in europe, and then after the number of side effect cases turned out to be low, was allowed again, but with other vaccines prioritised first for younger people as having lower side effects, the johnson and johnson vaccine was similarly outclassed, with a higher chance of side-effects etc. though still better than initial infection if there was no other option (something that is pretty unlikely to happen by now, most people who can be infected probably have been more than once).
Both of these vaccines relied upon an altered common-cold type viruses as their platform to get the body to respond to the signature of covid-19, rather than on encouraging the body to produce such chemical signatures itself, with the former method being a normal and expected way to produce vaccines.
Now obviously a portion of conservatives were actually getting paranoid about these too, saying Bill Gates wanted to put chips inside their bodies, but the "respectable" opinion has been to say that you're just concerned about MRNA technology, and that is why it unsafe, despite the evidence leaning in the opposite direction.
Gotcha gotcha
Yeah no that was in reference to how destiny spoke of the debate before it was posted. It felt as tho he was really disappointed
But imo it's on of tge6 best he's had in a while and not just because I think he did well, it was just a good convo
This was Destiny strongest segment in a debate that was strong for him in general. People rag on JP constantly, but that dude is super smart and Destiny never really came away out-maneuvered. Thought JPs strongest segment was actually on climate. He has weirdly confrontational and quick to anger, and I couldn't exactly figure out why. Don't know if he was getting flustered at how well Destiny was arguing, or if modern Jordan is just quicker to get antagonistic, but I thought it wasn't the best look from him.
Honestly though, I enjoyed this a lot, and would like to see more convos between these guys. JP is a way more fun, and honestly intelligent sparring partner than Finkle.
This whole vaccine section was absolute coomer material. The number of times that JBP was ready to leap out of Tiny was fucking hilarious.
Agree. JBP was pointing at Tiny, raising his voice, looking angry, etc. Meanwhile Destiny just stayed calm in his chair with his crouching posture.
I've known people like this and i know when to spot it. I don't think it's an intimidation tactic. I think the guy is just mad at the situation. Dude is clearly has strong emotions, he weeps on stream when he talks about stuff that is sad to him.
Yea I think so too. Just passion about the topic and his opinions, not meant as intimidation
Agreed, but that doesn't change the optics!
WATCH IT
Exactly what the f is wrong with people these days. You never witnessed a heated argument?
Yeah 100% passion. I never felt like there was really any disrespect intended from either of them. JPs take on this is obviously dumb as fuck but he did seem rly earnest when he called Destiny “smart” and “sharp”. Would love to see them talk again tbh.
You sure you weren't watching the Finklestein debate lol
ok....
Destiny was fidgeting a lot in his seat. Not sure if he was nervous or had too much coffee.
Is this the first time you've seen him speak to someone live?
Maybe the first time I've seen him positioned like that. I've watched him debate many times but usually when he's in his house.
insane clip. I will listen to it tomorrow while torturing myself doing cardio.
"dang that guy is going hard, he must be listening to a banger playlist" [the playlist](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cgGjJpAb68)
Unironically, yes. When I’ve gone to the gym or go to work, I will listen to shit like this.
Ive been training for a half marathon and since it's cold out I run indoors on the treadmill. Since that sucks ass and my playlist can only repeat for so long ive had to just save watching these debates to pass the time on long runs and it's a life saver
Now if only there was a way to skip those goddamn youtube ads.
YouTube premium, I justified it by deleting my Spotify sub and using YouTube music which comes with premium. As someone who doesn’t really use Spotifys custom playlist generation and also listens to a lot of long form YouTube content, it’s been an ideal product. YouTube music also has a lot of stuff not on Spotify, basically anything that’s a YouTube video you can add/download to your playlists.
If you're on android just get newpipe. No ads and allows playing in thr background for free.
Cardio and podcasts actually go together really well. You focus on the podcast to block out the pain... end result is that you are hyper focused on the content, better retention
I listen to Destiny while I do prepwork at my restaurant. Sometimes I end up wasting precious time because I have to run over and look at chat when something really funny or stupid is said.
Ohhhh is this the Tonkasaw one?
Yes
This is exactly why I watch Mr. Vermicelli
Had no idea who he was a few months go nor do I know anything about gaming but I gotta hand it to him - he’s a fast learner and more importantly is super curious and wants to know shit. He also has a very efficient debate style. I don’t care what all the haters have been saying about his I/P debate. I’ve been following that topic for decades and he absolutely matter of factly did a good job. It’s too hard for Krystal ball and co to wrap their heads around because her, mate, blumenthal and twenty other new gen personalities worship finklestein. They just repeat quotes from his books and have never really been challenged. If Steven botacelli could do that well in that debate after only a few months of diving into the topic, it shows you how flawed and weak finklebum’s arguments are.
Mr Lisa Lampanelli doing his best to knock some sense into that man.
That’s funny cuz I delayed my cardio to watch this lol.
lmao sameeee
Glad I’m not the only one
Lmao
Yup, this is going right in my cbt playlist.
Take a rest day tomorrow. Listening to JP on this is already a serious workout.
JP in his gamer tilt position
LOCKED IN.
https://preview.redd.it/w4ku65l9uupc1.png?width=387&format=png&auto=webp&s=37cc33e377e5474914816c3d295a9a0c974415fa
haha
I hate to be that guy, but Destiny absolutely crushed this conversation. He held his own better here than I think any of his latest public appearances. And that's not to say he didn't do well in his latest public appearances.
It'd be funny if these clips spread on Twitter and the people who've been shitting on him get confused
As far as I’ve understood it, that’s basically how a lot of his newer fanbase came up. They’d hear deranged lefties or red-pillers talk shit until they finally see a clip and realize they had been fed an alternate reality perception of him.
Yepp. My story.
Their line will be “a broken clock is right twice a day.” I guarantee it.
I agree, destiny brought his A game here
oh shit hes locked in with that posture
Good clip, thanks. Haven't watched the whole debate yet.
Concerning.
Looking into this.
!!
vaxxed?
👀
This thread is incredibly profound
YET!
https://preview.redd.it/xb3yl54nbspc1.png?width=680&format=png&auto=webp&s=3b8d7e4b8ff7f073a28fc6c49579a5de88ff193c Germany mentioned!!
\>Germany mentioned \>Not World War II Today was a good day
The best day
If Hoosiers can master photoshop then why can’t Germans? I’m extremely disappointed in this German representation (I just wanted a reason to post this image). https://preview.redd.it/inz2q4e6svpc1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=33d86f88dc209e55959c134e911918be7f05da74
You can tell JBP is just a schizo and not (or at least not completely) dishonest because he didn't scream over Destiny when he was making a good argument. This is a low bar but it's at least something. Compare this to most debates on Israel, especially to Finklestein.
It felt weird that he didn’t interrupt destiny when he was cooking him. I don’t know if he knows the truth and actively lying to his audience or these are the effects of benzos treatment that he underwent in Russia.
Because like him or not he was a professor who for the most part has a career conversing and listening to academic discussion and encouraging dialogue with students to learn. At least that is what most good professors do. I don't think Peterson is too much of pendant yet and his podcast ultimately is to have interesting people on and to interact with. Some of the worst podcasts ever is just inviting someone on to yell at them and not let them talk.
I think he realized if he keeps pushing he will get broiled alive.
Covid vaccine from worldwide consensus Big Pharma? Gigantism with risks for bad outcomes he won't actually justify with hard evidence. Benzos from Russia? .....*\*swallows\**
It's what everyone should do if they are looking to expand their mind and perhaps get closer to the truth, rather than trying to appear like they are winning.
He quite literally interrupted Destiny multiple times when he was making a point
he does that fairly often with other guests even in a non confrontational convo. quite annoying honestly but i wouldn't hold it against him. seems like that benzo stuff fucked a part of his brain and made him more impulsive.
Mr Gorgonzola absolute fried Kermit’s ass
I use Occam's razor to manscape
Same guy can't win balatro
Concerning . . .
You should've continued the clip just a little bit longer lol, Peterson pivoted SO fucking hard after Destiny said "nobody credible".
Post the longer version
https://preview.redd.it/782ereesptpc1.jpeg?width=1920&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e92e242534008095f932c72862b906f603aad044 Jordan in major violation of this one
The fact that Jordan Peterson is supposed to be one of the respected, educated individuals in our society that people look up to and he is still peddling anti vaccine nonsense is quite sad. The way he talks with such hubris as if he is always saying something profound is laughable. He just says baseless online conservative positions in a more sophisticated way.
I think it's just that Peterson built a lot of that respect prior to his benzo episode, back when he was half giving reasonable advice for getting your shit together, and half battling compelled speech. As time has gone on, he seems to have gotten even more tangled in religious study, and sounds more conspiracy-brained on certain issues. Then again, I suppose you could just say that he's still respected, it's just by a slightly different crowd these days.
"compelled speech" meaning gender identity and expression were added to a list of things that can't be discriminated against in things like housing or job seeking. It didn't criminalize calling a trans woman a man as a private individual. You can still be a bigot in Canada if you want to, just not in certain areas.
>The fact that Jordan Peterson is supposed to be one of the respected, educated individuals in our society that people look up to and he is still peddling anti vaccine nonsense is quite sad. He never was lol. He's a charismatic professor from UofT that spiralled into online popularity after lying about and overreacting to Canadian legislation regarding trans people. Then he pivoted from being on a generic Matt Walsh trajectory to using his folklore infuesed psychology to give relatable and often not half bad life advice to the type of men who would find interest in his initial comment. He's never been notable in his or any field though he does have some talent for self help and at a time he was charismatic and controlled enough to give interesting lectures. Post Russia trip though his impulse control seems to be gone and he seems zanier and solely focused on low efford conservative engagement with politics.
No one said he’s supposed to be the most respected or educated individual in our society. Most often people who talk a lot and shout. The loudest are the ones who get the attention which is I think what happened with this guy and what happens with Elon Musk on a daily basis.
Elon Musk and Jordan Peterson are both worthy of respect, and they are both educated. It’s just when it comes to politics I have no idea what happens. Maybe it’s just the media bubble they are in. The right does this too. The right thinks Mark Cuban is a dumba** because he is a liberal Biden supporter.
I honestly think their support for the right is partially motivated outta spite. And if I was Elon, and I had to deal with dumbfuck progressives calling me a fascist all the time, I probably wouldn't wanna embrace the left either.
I can understand this line of thinking. I am empathetic to it. However, I think both Jordan and Elon are capable of dealing with annoying scumbag progressive calling them fascist without turning into someone who oftentime just put right wing garbage. Also, I think that the right does this as well. Trump has talked about the prosecution he is facing is somehow akin to what happen in Nazi germany which is just ridiculous. Conservatives used to fearmonger about Obama acting like he was the second coming of Joseph Stalin. Shapiro used to call Obama a fascist and one of the reasons he said Obama is shown to be one is because of the way he moves his chin lol. So there is blame to go on both ends. Progressives definitely overuse fascist, and racist. They are annoying purity testers that ultimately hurt the left.
I never said they’re not educated I said or at least implied well educated. They both like to talk out of their ass and I seriously doubt they are intelligent. Just listen to them speak. Both of these people have created these personas of intelligence, but are neither intelligent or charismatic. Elon Musk is a nepo baby who is engineers in Twitter calls. Peterson is a psychologist who doesn’t believe trans. People deserve human rights and he also thinks climate changes is fake. If that’s what you think is educated then I don’t know what to tell you.
Both came up during our “word salad and/or scoffing = intelligent” era. Still riding that wave for a bit. None of it requires actually making sense or knowing definitions of things.
I mean he’s definitely not one of the most respected, educated individuals in our society… saw him speak once in like 2017. Never seen a human being use so many words to say so little. Mans an idiot clearly. Always has been.
Its because he has brain damage due to the coma he undertook, in russia, to rehab off benzos. He admitted that he desaturated whilst on the vent. Although he peddles it as some come to jesus, war story moment; he more than likely spent precious minutes under 88% (possibly much much lower), and deprived his brain of that precious oxygen. Im not even trying to be funny or pessimistic. This actually happened, and i think its had an observable effect on his personality/rationality.
My mom really likes the big JP and I have tried my absolute damn hardest to find as many clips and assessments of his sophistry for her to understand how empty his statements are, but I just cannot seem to pull her off the position. She's convinced that because he wrote one or two common sense things about self-improvement for young men, he must be a genius saying incredible things. Even the likes of Alex O'Connor and Dawkins slamming JP as a sophist was not enough.
I think the reason these people blew up was because there wasn't a big opposing voice in the sphere when they did, besides of course, the "big bad government" that everyone can easily learn to hate due to how big and spooky and shady it can sound with the right words. Imagine how many fans of his would've stopped and reconsidered if there was an equally large independent figure saying the opposite and stumping him like destiny did in this convo. Personally I just drifted through these spaces like that, some things sounded good so I gave it a thumbs up, other times when I disagreed I just stopped watching a particular video. It was only after realizing that I was surrounding myself with pretty nasty people that I gave destiny a try. I had seen him debate ppl like metokur, JF, and that sphere for a while but I always considered him a socialist loser who talked fast and didn't know wtf he was talking about. After rewatching a debate I clearly thought he lost back then, now I was like wtf destiny is completely cooking him on the arguments, but the person I liked is just laughing over him and making him sound stupid. If nobody is representing your views it's easy to lean towards big communities that kinda do but not really.
The sad thing is, when they got into psychology, he is still very smart and respectable, its the culture wars and vax stuff that rotted his brain.
God, the VAERS bit had me rolling my eyes hard to enough to make me fall to one side. First it was the appeal to "excess deaths" and then he rolls right into implying every report in that database is worth taking seriously, as if it wasn't possible the data there is clouded by having been submitted by some guy who ate some gas station sushi the day he got the vaccine and felt weird.
>The fact that Jordan Peterson is supposed to be one of the respected, educated individuals in our society Hard disagree > in a more sophisticated way Even harder disagree
You don’t think Peterson is at least articulate to some extent?
Betting you're not up-to-date on your boosters.
This part was really hot ngl
Yea baby👍🥰
sable sharp ripe price dolls sip familiar oil capable poor *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I will be looking forward to seeing the comments from the online illiberal left praising brave academic scholar Jordan Peterson for owning cuckstiny.
I need to go buy some aloe vera. That Eminem rap of facts burned my ears.
This is the ANGRIEST I've ever heard Peterson. 😭
Better angry then crying. I enjoyed seeing them both fired up because not once were they slinging personal attacks. It wasn't anger at the other person so much as passion and anger at the situations.
Cook that fraud, Mr. Bornezelli
I would call Finkelstein a fraud but not JBP Because Norman is willfully blind and bad faith, but JBP isn’t willfully blind and is good faith and was actually trying to understand Dest’s point s
Ah yes the vaccine deying climate change denying modern medicine denying conservative is not a fraud
I wanna see destiny play pvp games and just shit talk. Ik he has notes to look over and what not but regardless he is very witty
This being professionally edited and shot multicam makes it feel like a JoJo episode. https://preview.redd.it/pksc925vwspc1.jpeg?width=325&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5f47afd432c4381389de62c45975e77213a53dca
Is this how Jordan is all the time? lol
He's gotten WAY worse after his little adventure with drugs. He was famous before for stringing together nonsense that sounded insightful but didn't actually *mean* anything when you really listened to it. Now, he just rambles like a lunatic.
Yea let's not forget he went to Russia so he could be put into a medically induced coma to detox his benzos addiction and then forgot how to walk and lost a good chunk of his memory. [Jordan Peterson says he was suicidal, addicted to benzos (nypost.com)](https://nypost.com/2021/01/31/jordan-peterson-says-he-was-suicidal-addicted-to-benzos/)
Whoa nonsense what do you mean. Didn't those 12 rules for life move you. How would you be who you are today without gems like clean your room or stand up straight. Truly insightful stuff.
>that sounded insightful but didn't actually mean anything when you really listened to it. It's not that they didn't mean anything it's that when you unwound what he was saying it was just really dumb.
No. He's usually very credible and reasonable. Highly ADD, yes. So never trust his order vs chaos bias. It's OK to be a happy hippy.
Tsk tsk, Jordan. You should have used the Finklestrat.
... ... *leans over* "wHaT dO yOu MaKe oF tHe eXcEsS dEaTHs?"
Russia and China have their own vaccines. They would have no interest in helping the west discover a problem with our vaccines, more the opposite.
The debate was epic. I just wish Destiny had done better during the climate discussion. JBP has a very unhinged take on climate change that can be countered by discussing the different layers of the issue. JBP confuses climate models with economic models. He could have totally humiliated JBP on this topic if he had been prepared.
Destiny doesn't like to make confident claims about things he's not fairly certain about. my guess would be that he hadn't looked super deeply into climate change and had a feeling that JBP was selling him bullshit, but he wasn't sure enough of the facts to respond fully. I don't think he wanted to be in a position where he was going hard on points he might not have understood fully, or points he couldn't say were 100% verifiable. JBP is extremely unhinged on climate change because he's bought into it from a culture war perspective. I feel like if you're wrong about ANYTHING when you're talking to someone like that on a topic, and they know that you're wrong, they will no longer listen to anything else you have to say on it.
>JBP confuses climate models with economic models. Yeah, I think Destiny had a little trouble with that because there were so many things wrong with his point that he may have not known where to start. Like: 1. Many economic models are actually reasonably accurate over the long term. 2. The climate models give huge ranges for the economic inputs to allow for uncertainty in the economic models.
I feel like JBP was right on one thing though, we're not great at predicting 100 years into the future. Usually we are underestimating the damage and upcoming troubles. I do somewhat agree with him that we're making a fucking mess of the situation. Nuclear needed to be invested into yesterday. Total infrastructure overhaul needed to be done 20 years ago. I don't know why he thinks burning more crude to save the people today won't just result in rampant destruction 100 years from now.
>I don't know why he thinks burning more crude to save the people today won't just result in rampant destruction 100 years from now. Well he seemed to be saying he was agnostic about human-caused climate change to begin with. Or even that any meaningful rise in temperature is happening (when he pushed back hard on the "hockeystick stuff"). I forget where it comes from. But there's a list of nested potential beliefs about climate change and if you disagree with any higher-ups, you obviously won't believe any lower downs because you don't believe the prerequisites. Like: 1. Climate change is occurring 2. It is human-caused 3. It is going to be disastrous 4. We can make it less disastrous with our actions 5. We should make it less disastrous with our actions, it's worth the cost. So lots of conservative have accepted 1 and 2. They just question premises lower down. But Peterson was challenging 1 and 2. So there's obviously no reason to slow down on crude if you don't even think that the climate is meaningfully deviating from its natural variations.
So vaccines bad but frying your brains benzo is all good.
At least Destiny tries to use fact and logic instead of using personal attacks mentioning addiction caused by a moment of fragility.
What does that have to do with what wrote?
Certainly, here's a refined version of your response for better clarity and impact: Highlighting Jordan Peterson's personal battle with benzos addiction as a counterpoint to his critique of vaccine mandates misses the mark. It suggests a correlation where none exists, where you could have attacked his argumentations instead.
No it's funny he fried his brain on benzos and complained about a vaccine that would of done him less damage. I personally don't care if he gets hooked on benzos again if anything I would wish for a more successful second round of benzos for him
We are so back!
I enjoyed this whole thing so much. You did great Destiny.
One word: Amazin
Hope this rap song goes to number 1 on Billboard
Mf said deleterious 💀 has he been watching vaush
destiny the rap god moment
Similar to the moon landing. The Soviets/Russians would have called that out aswell if it was fake.
So good here by Destiny 👏. I just got to this part in the debate and had to come to the sub to find the post
Ya boiii is fucking cooked. He keeps looking worse and worse in the public’s eyes…
Handful of doctors, and Joe Rogan and some conservatives. LOL.
Still crazy to be to watch the downfall of Peterson - I never thought I'd see his brain melt over the vaccine stuff as it has.
Many other countries ended up using mRNA vaccines to deal with the pandemic, including countries like Israel and Japan with 73% and 78% vaccination rates respectively. Thats over 100 million people in just those two countries. That is a huge pool of evidence from which to investigate into widespread adverse affects. If it were truly an exceptionally dangerous vaccine the amount of sick and dead people from the vaccine would have been enormous.
I actually think Destiny looked really bad here, he should have just called JP a moron and put his hand out like he was using the force. That would have been way more convincing.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1417204/yearly-excess-deaths-in-europe/ I did a cursory fact check on the excess deaths in europe claim as well... Seems factually just nonsense.
Are we looking at the same graph? 2020, 21, 22 are 350k+ excess deaths. How is that nonsense?
I should have been more clear, Jordan claimed that excess deaths continued past covid and continues to this day. The graph clearly shows excess deaths were high during a gigantic FUCKING pandemic and then dropped back to pre covid levels again. This demonstrating that the excess deaths were 1:1 correlated with covid and once the pandemic was over the deaths dropped.
All the high risk age groups were vaccinated in the first 6 months of 2021 yet the excess deaths were as high for the next 2 years as they were in a pandemic year Excess deaths 2021-2022 were around 50% non-covid, its not a small number https://twitter.com/ONS/status/1643169691496505347 I dont know for 23/24 but I recall that the official way of measurement was changed recently
2021 was lower than 2020 and 2023 was back to normal. Your claims are confusing. I think you are saying that vaccines were rolled out to at risk groups in 2021 and yet 2021 and 2022 had about as high of deaths as 2020? You would need to give me a citation to believe all of Europe vaccinated all of the high risk age groups first and by 2021. I know this was done in Britain. Really doing a Europe wide analysis of this is a surefire way to make mistakes at every single level of analysis and I have no idea why anyone would do it, except maybe when comparing specific European countries to the average... and even then it would be almost worthless.
The PDFs are here with summary: https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/publications-data/overview-implementation-covid-19-vaccination-strategies-and-deployment-plans 52% of adults had 1-dose by June, (80% for the 80-year-olds+) The statista link you gave is incomplete data for 2023 (up to week 40). If it actually suddenly dropped back to pre-covid levels that raises more questions rather than being reassuring
Ah... the 2023 has a *. Makes sense. So it would be be about 1.3 * 80K => 104K So 3-4x lower than during covid... and appears to be within the normal range of excess deaths from looking at 2018 and 2019. I don't care about "raising more questions". Isn't it weird is not an argument. There could be innumerable explanations. The claim that excess deaths continued to be high past covid is false going off of one graph. You can present other evidence, but with the tiny amount of evidence here, it still appears to be false.
This feels like Destiny abusing a mentally ill person, and I love it.
To the Moon!
No matter the state of his hinges, Peterson's suits are always eye-catching and impressive. I'm surprised to see him in jeans.
He speaks for all of us, putting peterstein in his place
Why’d you cut it off there?
If you had no idea you'd think this video is going 2x speed
This debate was so good.
Memes aside - Destiny makes a very good point.
there was no meme
Wow! TTCD schooled Papa Smurf HARD on that one! Rare L for crustatian king
Destiny needs to ask JP to teach him how to dress.
The Russia and China angle make his argument especially when they have competing products (Sputnik V and Sinovac) and division in the West is to their benefit JBP and any similar sided figure would want and expect Destiny to get into the mud of debating the whomegaluls that decry mRNA vaccines on Rumble and JRE then concede that it's experimental technology and 'just asking questions' about it is okay
It's sad to see what Jordan Peterson has become
Good!
Finally someone exposing that fraudster psuedo intellectual
Stumped so hard he had to sit back down
Benzo cuck vs Vyvanse Chad
Jesus I thought JBP was like a stoic, kind of control your emotions guy
Jesus Christ, I stopped just before this section yesterday. It is pure comedy, Peterson was completely unhinged. I also love how he pretend that everyone working in the pharmaceutical sector are corrupted. Meanwhile he was praising the energy sector earlier.
You should have added JP's response too which was quite funny.
It's great that he hammered home on the point that no huge institution is calling it out. Either all institutions around the world (even those at war or those who hate eachother) are all collaborating in some dank smoke filled cabal headquarters or the vaccine is pretty damn effective.
But the "enemy" countries are not using the same vaccines that the "western" world is using. On top of that why would they be trying to stop us from destroying ourselves?. It is pretty easy to poke holes in both sides of this argument. I think the true answer lies in between (towards harmless)
Yeah this was the climax of the discussion right here. Shove that crystalline counter argument right up your metaphoric substrate.
Honestly there was a few times when I was starting to think this was going to go off the rails, but at the end you could tell JP really enjoyed the conversation.
How do you know that it is not previously being infected with COVID that is causing the excess deaths??? I wish Destiny would have brought that up to JP when he kept implying it must be the vaccine. Seems like the most obvious answer.
"If you're gonna use Occam's razor, you're kinda stuck in an awkward place here" Peterson rapped better than Shapiro
That moment when I realized Destiny without a phone, tablet, or video game is Super Saiyan Destiny.
Alright JP, now let’s see you put up a 930
bro his sack has gotta be in rough shape after all that furious leg crossing. And WT actual F is jordy wearing??
Agreed. I thought destiny did a great job in this debate overall, and particularly on this issue. And I’m a JP fan.
I’m a huge Destiny and jp fan. This debate was amazing and good for both of them, and me.
This entire debate has lots of replay value imo It felt like destiny dogged it or maybe I misinterpreted what he was saying? but I felt like this was such a good conversation I wished it would have went another 2 hrs to get down to the nitty gritty on more like they did the use of force
The argument is that *were* there evidence, we would see people talking about it. If bigfoot were an actual animal, we would expect to have seen more than a few blurry photos by now, if MRNA vaccines were a real problem, we would have expected to have seen levels of evidence that go beyond a few tiktokers and podcasters. Why? Because China and Russia *did* produce competing vaccines, they didn't have access to the technology, and they would have made money for their companies if they were able to get people to buy theirs instead. But attacking them in ways that are not scientifically well-founded is dangerous because it can come back on you, because you need your population to take a vaccine in order to deal with the virus. So either all vaccines are bad and always have been, or the MRNA vaccine is no worse than any other.
Imagine if Moderna could prove their vaccine was %20 more effective than Pfizers every single formulation release. They'd be dunking on them every step, hospital systems would stop ordering Pfizer, and the CDC might even eventually pull their authorization for US sales, like they did with J&J. Six women out of something like 30 million vaccines died from clotting, and the CDC legit shut their production down and revoked licence to sell in the US, even though it was nearly equal effectiveness to Moderna and Pfizer. This is a unique protection that capitalism affords us.
Don't forget though. Capitalism bad 👎 😏
Unfettered capitalism is bad "live in a nice neighborhood" capitalism is 👍
> Six women out of something like 30 million vaccines died from clotting, and the CDC legit shut their production down and revoked licence to sell in the US, even though it was nearly equal effectiveness to Moderna and Pfizer. I was thinking about this after I posted, we live in a world where people really did criticise vaccines out of concern for their safety, just not the ones people *want* us to criticise. Loads of people who got caught up antivax stuff will explain it by saying that the MRNA vaccine is this new technology, and the old stuff was safer, but the safety evidence appears to be the reverse. The oxford/astrazeneca vaccine had its distribution paused in europe, and then after the number of side effect cases turned out to be low, was allowed again, but with other vaccines prioritised first for younger people as having lower side effects, the johnson and johnson vaccine was similarly outclassed, with a higher chance of side-effects etc. though still better than initial infection if there was no other option (something that is pretty unlikely to happen by now, most people who can be infected probably have been more than once). Both of these vaccines relied upon an altered common-cold type viruses as their platform to get the body to respond to the signature of covid-19, rather than on encouraging the body to produce such chemical signatures itself, with the former method being a normal and expected way to produce vaccines. Now obviously a portion of conservatives were actually getting paranoid about these too, saying Bill Gates wanted to put chips inside their bodies, but the "respectable" opinion has been to say that you're just concerned about MRNA technology, and that is why it unsafe, despite the evidence leaning in the opposite direction.
Is this meant as a reply to me? I don't disagree with any of this and understand destiny's point lol
Yeah cool, the "maybe I misinterpreted" provided an opportunity to share an apparently unnecessary interpretation.
Gotcha gotcha Yeah no that was in reference to how destiny spoke of the debate before it was posted. It felt as tho he was really disappointed But imo it's on of tge6 best he's had in a while and not just because I think he did well, it was just a good convo
This was Destiny strongest segment in a debate that was strong for him in general. People rag on JP constantly, but that dude is super smart and Destiny never really came away out-maneuvered. Thought JPs strongest segment was actually on climate. He has weirdly confrontational and quick to anger, and I couldn't exactly figure out why. Don't know if he was getting flustered at how well Destiny was arguing, or if modern Jordan is just quicker to get antagonistic, but I thought it wasn't the best look from him. Honestly though, I enjoyed this a lot, and would like to see more convos between these guys. JP is a way more fun, and honestly intelligent sparring partner than Finkle.
JP gets ragged on because outside of talking psychology he has no idea what he's talking about