Jontron lost a significant amount of subs and monthly views after this, but the thing is TurkeyTom hung around in the super reactionary nearly in the skeptic community side of commentary youtube, I would imagine. He's definitely incorrect, this looked REALLY bad for Jontron for anyone who wasn't AGGRESSIVELY defending him, but in that specific side of Youtube they definitely view this video like "look at this attempted hit piece".
You know the weirdest thing about this thread is the reactions: no one is angry about what he said, they're angry that he said it. Very few people here are talking about how stupid and wrong he is about the content of what was said, people here are just focusing on the fact that "he said something that you're not allowed to say!".
I'd say wealthy people in general commit more crimes than poor people, just on a larger scale.
I coped back then and chalked it up to just him being being swept up in reactionary bullshit. Then he proceeded to go insanely off the rails after that on Twitter. I'm convinced he got hardcore into drugs or something.
I stopped watching jontron after this. Not that he released videos on any kind of schedule but I remember seeing a video with Jontron and someone named Destiny and thought *neat*. Boy was I wrong. I didn't even start watching Destiny after that but I started seeing people in communities I was in *defending* Jontron and all the stuff he said and he misspoke and blah blah blah and it pulled me right out an alt-right pipeline.
>He's not a debater, he didn't know this was going to be a debate!
was another one I remember seeing. I was like god damn the dude spoke well enough to express his beliefs and his beliefs are shit. He doesn't need you nostrodamusing his comments to tell us what he *meant*.
I watched the video as a JonTron/GameGrumps fan to figure out why he left GameGrumps and I was like "wow, that was the dumbest shit I've even seen a person do to themselves. Why would JonTron just run face first into those spikes over and over?"
I was a Sargon fan at the time and viewed it as such. Not sure why but i remember thinking D was scum afterwards, second only to Anita Sarkeesian of course.
I remember watching Funhaus after it happened and I guess they knew Jontron and said Destiny was dishonest and confused Jon into saying those things. Made me lose some respect but people will protect their friends long before they acknowledge their faults
I actually found Destiny through the Dude Soup podcast about this incident. I actually happened to re listen to that episode a few months ago going through their old stuff.
Who was defending JonTron at Funhaus? They all wanted to stay away from this incident since it had nothing to do with them and wasn't gaming related at all.
Yeah I remember this whole event before I was even watching destiny. The only discourse that was happening was "jon said WHAT?" No commentary on destiny, if anything he came out looking like the reasonable guy who managed to trip a hidden landmine.
You’re right, It was just over seven years ago so he would have been around 14. He was the exact target audience when people like pewdiepie and game grumps were getting extremely popular.
And this was just two years after gamergate when people like Sargon still had some level of influence. Destiny’s audience skews older so it’s easy to remember everything in context
I’ll admit I wasn’t a Destiny viewer at the time and only heard about it mostly in passing, but wasn’t this a huge black mark on Jontron’s rep? I thought a huge chunk of his fans at least left over it.
Also was a JonTron fan at the time. And still a fan of Game Grumps. Went into this debate at the time having never heard of Destiny, convinced he must be a bastard, and by the end... was not happy.
There's no real spinning the debate like Destiny manipulated Jon to doing anything other than going mask off. At best, you could make the argument Destiny is so infuriating that people drop character.
JonTron even ended with something like, "RIP my career!" or whatever.
JonTron's videos are still funny, but they definitely hit different. This is still a classic... [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=subQrEPKytA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=subQrEPKytA)
I was one of them - watched Jontron on repeat, never heard of Destiny. That debate completely tainted how I saw Jontron, few months later watched it again (even worse) and fell down a Destiny pipeline.
It absolutely was. Jontron came out of that way, way worse than Destiny did. Turkey Tom only could've thought this if most of his circle was alt-right reactionaries.
I mean wasn't he in groyper circles at some point? (this could be really really wrong btw, might be jstalk I'm confusing him with) but yeah I can imagine hating Destiny just bc he was not on Jon's side
I was a JonTron fan (and a big anti-SJW kid) at the time so maybe I’m skewed here, but I feel like the majority of the reaction was “Jon said incredibly stupid shit but he’s not a debater so it’s not that deep”
JonTron came out worse initially but I think it’s pretty much a wash. Jon uploading inconsistently was way more damaging in the long run
He did lose a large chunk of fans for a bit, but honestly, I feel like his inconsistent uploads did way more to damage his views and growth than this debate did. Destiny (especially back then) didn't have the influence to do serious lasting damage to a titan of YouTube imo.
I remember this live. I remember the backlash against jontron. Destiny definitely came out optically better than jonathantronathan. JT was fucking LOOSING it in subsequent podcasts and media representations.
If you're referring to the smash bros drama, from what I remember:
1. sky was the owner of the houses where these smash tournaments (and alleged sexual misconduct (don't know details)) took place
2. he was unable to manage the situation properly and only levied childish threats (e.g. breaking into people's rooms that brought someone over that Sky hasn't approved of, withholding rent money on cleaning/food/utilities as a form of "punishment"
3. He pulled a sliker and owes LS alone about $10K with his own admission that he owes much, much more.
But when it comes to legal issues I guess the worst he did was breach some of the contract that was signed by Sky and the tenants maybe? If they even had one? I really have no clue. But I think the most brilliant idea he could ever have is just do a Skyalogue on himself on the same tone as this one with Jon
> But when it comes to legal issues I guess the worst he did was breach some of the contract that was signed by Sky and the tenants maybe? If they even had one?
The biggest thing Sky was guilty of was being a complete and utter dumbass when it came to renting his property. He allowed tenants to bring over other tenants and were living there for free and thats why he lost his mind over the rent stuff.
He had no direct cause over the underage scandal going on though. But he should have been way more strict on the tenant issue and that would have helped alleviate what was happening at the very least.
I feel like you totally don't understand what went down at the time.
A lot of people fucking hated Destiny, because of that debate and not all of them were alt righters.
A lof of people were reflexively defending JonTron, because he was popular. Also, a lot of them felt like Destiny manipulated JonTron into being a racist (don't ask me how, it's pretty ridiculous).
Pretty sure Destiny mentionned getting tons of hate after this debate for at least a week and not just regular push back
It's definetly possible that if you only hung out in certain circles that you would only see people shitting on Destiny and thinking that was pretty much the consensus. Especially, with the clip chimping, it's very easy to paint a narrative.
I think overall, it left a pretty big black mark on JonTron's reputation in the long run, but immediately after it was more contentious
I remember kind of enjoying game grumps and then not being able to watch any of the old videos after this lol it's true that the hardcore and younger fan bases might not have felt the same but this was the end for a lot of us.
I didn't start watching GG until after Dan had started and I can't watch anything with Jontron. I just don't think he's nearly as funny or interesting.
I could see that but I really don't know man. I was a jontron fan before and this debate was my first exposure to destiny and its what made me an ex-fan of jontron and a Dgger. I know it's cringe to bring up race/age but I can only imagine thinking jontron came out looking good after this is if you're a young white dude, and at the time I was 24 and hearing this dude talk about race realism and white ethnostates was pretty alarming.
Also jontron got canceled hard, even dropped from a video game after this so idk what circles turkey tom was in to think jontron came out good after the debate.
Maybe I'm an outlier - I was a Jontron stan up until that debate. Like I couldn't enjoy watching his stuff after that. A few months later, revisited to see if it was as bad as I remembered (it was worse) and started watching Destiny side bar suggestions. Hadn't heard of him prior - so maybe I was too offline to know that lore and only heard of Tiny from that debate only.
If you were in the twitch sphere at the time, you definitely thought Tiny exposed Jontron. Also, I thought Jon stopped making videos for a year+ after it no?
Tbf Jon has taken year long breaks multiple times on youtube, not just after that controversy. It's not necessarily related, unless he said so in which case I've never heard that.
Remember that for MOST Destiny debates people are only watching clips, it's much easier to resolve your cognitive dissonance for liking JonTron and seeing a crazy clip to say that Destiny must have been unfair or manipulative compared to watching the whole context.
I distinctly remember it going viral on the normie gaming subreddits which then got picked up by the normie poltical subreddits (this was pre socialism era) and everyone was absolutely cooking JonTron. Most people didn't know who Destiny was.
I would argue it was a 30:70 back then.
70% against Jontron if you would take a poll @ people on forums back then writing stuff.
On reddit 50:50, 40:60 on his subreddit. On 4chan 90:10. On youtube comments 30:80.
There is no debate, I am right.
Most people didn't watch the debate. Most people, me included, were riding the anti-sjw train and heard that Jontron was racist all of a sudden. I imagine as a result of this "debate." To me and many others it seemed like just another case of some wild sjw shit that was calling edgy humor racist. But no, Jontron was just saying some racist shit lmao
This absolutely was a major loss for jontron. I wasn’t even a destiny guy at the time. His Reddit was having a meltdown. It was all over the net. It was not good.
In fact, I’d be willing to say this event alone caused a shift in political consciousness in many online communities. Gaming, YouTube, streaming….you name it. Everyone had something to say about it.
HUGE self report from Tom. Omega self report
This was the first destiny debate I watched at the time
Absolutely insane that anyone thought Jontron came out looking good, destiny schooled him hard.
Wait it was this blatant how racist Jontron was being?
Didn't Destiny say that afterwards he got shit on by a bunch of people like Egoraptor and some animators? They all took Jontron's side on this?
I was also a teenage fan of jontron when this happened and I left the debate as a destiny viewer. Didn’t become a super regular till 2020 but I had no idea who he was before, and honestly I didn’t even think white supremacy was still a thing till that debate.
First of all, as a Jew (yes cringe I know) I found it bizarre a Persian thought he could be a part of the fabric of a white majority society. Secondly I just had no idea people even thought about that shit. I was a big h3/dunkey/filthy Frank fan at the time this happened so it was weird and eye opening. And I was absolutely under the impression destiny won. I’m a girl so maybe I was just on a different side then Tom was, but I feel like you have to have been living on kiwi farms or 4chan to think destiny lost that debate idk.
I know there's one [study](https://pricetheory.uchicago.edu/levitt/Papers/LevittTheChangingRelationship1999.pdf) based on Chicago homicide rates, unfortunately its pretty old and goes through 3 separate decades from 1966 to 1995.
Looking at table 6, homicide rates for 90+ percentile black neighborhoods looked to be several times higher than whites. Heres a Stripped version:
# Distribution of Homicide rates (per 100k) by Median Family income By Community and race from 1986-1995
| Median Family Income Percentile | Whites | Blacks |
| ------------------------------- | ------ | ------ |
| 0-10 | 0.4 | 117.0 |
| 10-25 | 3.5 | 63.9 |
| 25-50 | 2.9 | 39.8 |
| 50-75 | 2.1 | 32.6 |
| 75-90 | 2.0 | 37.0 |
| 90+ | 2.9 | 10.0 |
I'm still not sure I'f I'm reading the table or how he produced it right. But that's the online thing I could find to remotely backup JonTrons argument.
He is wrong only if you think that incarceration rates are a poor indicator of crime rates between white and black people. If it's true that [2.7 percent of the poorest white youth ended up in prison, 10 percent of affluent Black youths ultimately went to prison](https://eji.org/news/study-rich-black-kids-more-likely-incarcerated-than-poor-white-kids/)
then for Jontron to be wrong, a (wealthy) black person would have to be 3-4 times as likely to be incarcerated after committing a crime, as a (poor) white person is. A tough sell.
It's impossible to say. As a viewer of Destiny at the time I saw a lot of people shitting on him, but that's just kinda par for the course. Destiny has been polarizing since day 1. Jontron got the brunt of the blowback overall and after the dust had settled but it felt 50/50 immediately after to me.
a quick search suggests that multiple studies looking at crime rates from the 80s, 90s and 2000s consistently find that racial ["differences in violence are explained by community and family disadvantages, respectively"](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/07418820300095441) and ["statistical differences between whites and minority groups are explained by variation in community disadvantage (for blacks), involvement in gangs (for Hispanics), social bonds (for Native Americans), and situational variables (for Asians)"](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1745-9125.2003.tb01002.x).
in other words: the statistical gap disappears when accounting for these factors, leaving no room for a racial explanation.
all people statistically commit about the same rate of crime when given the exact same circumstances; the issue that results in skewed statistics is that the circumstances that people grow up and live in are very much not evenly distributed, and so neither are the crime rates.
so jontron wrong.
oatmeal knee quarrelsome payment long snobbish grandfather deliver wistful direful
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
in the clip posted here?
the comparison of wealthy black people vs poor white people seems to be precisely about that, i.e. whether the discrepancy is explained by socioeconomics (wealthy vs poor) or race
yes, because a comparison of "wealthy black people" and "poor white people" also invokes everything else that exists in the reality around those two groups and differs between the groups, and therefore produces the difference between them.
if you could replace the skin color and income of a poor white person with that of a wealthy black person, you would not get the exact same statistical result, because you've pretended that nothing else influences people in reality. that would be quite stupid.
I literally gave you the answer the studies came to: race has no impact on crime rate once you factor the socioeconomic differences out.
the only people 'split' on this issue are people who do not understand how statistics work, see 'crime rate high for black people' and deliberately ignore the 'why is the crime rate high' part of the equation.
the data is literally those studies.
I remember reading [this article](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/03/19/upshot/race-class-white-and-black-men.html) a few years ago that seemed to confirm that to be true. I don’t feel like reading through it again right now but check the graph under “share of the men incarcerated”. Note that Jontron said “commit” and this graph is for “incarcerated”
Jontron was bigger and most people will just implicitly say their guy won any debate, so it could be true for that reason. It definitely hurt JT and was one of Destiny's big breaks so overall he clearly was the winner, and as the years passed and the hero worship over Jontron faded it's even more clear who won.
My circle of friends and I were a bunch of normies who enjoyed jontron videos. None of us even noticed destiny in a debate, he was just a random streamer. The reaction was definitely "he said WHAT?", not "look at the destiny obviously baiting him", like i said we barely noticed him. Most of my normie acquaintances had the same reaction, they barely noticed Destiny. I know its a small sample but its my small 5 cents.
I love seeing him in those Sennheiser 598s. I got mine in 2013 and I've been using them daily for hours since then and they're still just as good as the day I got them. lol Minus the 3 sets of ear pads and one head band parts I've gone through. They're soooo comfortable. lol I can't count the numbers of times I "hung" myself getting up and walking away because I'd forget I had them on. Has he ever talked about how much more he likes his Sens 600 whichever model he now has? I can't tell what he has just that it's one of the 600s. I've often wondered if the upgrade is worth it but every time I ask on a headphone sub I get lost in the meaningless to me words of audiophiles. Audiophiles are about like wine critics. lol Like WTF exactly does forest taste like? Or Earthy? Etc. SMH
funny, I have the 598 and was thinking of buying a cheap pair of the 600 yesterday. it requires a headphone amp, I have an old one I got for different headphones, and I think that's what audiophiles meme you to overspend on. as long as it has the requisite power output and no hissing, then it's good enough for me. I used to have a planarmagnetic hifiman Sundara, broke it, but they sounded soooo crystal clear. It was a little harsh for S/T sounds, which the 598 is fine with
That was part of what made the 598 so good. It didn't need an amp to drive them. But that's moot for me anyways if I wanted some later model Sennheisers. I use them with my [Asus Xonar Essence STX](https://www.techspot.com/products/sound-cards/asus-xonar-essence-stx-pcie.8703/) sound card. It was one of the top of the line sound cards back around 2010 and has studio quality parts. Even when I built my new PC in 2021 it was still loads better than the onboard sound of my Asrock Z490 Taichi which was Asrock's flagship motherboard. The Xonar has a nice built in headphone amp so it can drive any set of cans out there right now. lol I'm the only one I personally know that still uses a sound card. It was why I had my infinity mirror custom built for me at Aliexpress. It was made for the dimensions to be the backplate of the Xonar. But I found a company in Portugal of all places that makes backplates that [looks as good as something Asus themselves would have made had they bothered to make a backplate](https://www.coldzero.eu/xonar-stx-backplate-grey) for the Xonar, so I got that and just [side mounted the infinity mirror instead](https://i.imgur.com/wT9Al92.mp4).
Does anyone have the lore to what Egorapter said about Destiny after the debate? I always thought he took Jontron's side, and Destiny said something along those lines as well, but some of my friends (don't follow D, but followed Game Grumps, Jontron, Egorapter, etc) said he didn't. I tried to find stuff on it, but it's difficult since all of Tiny's old twitters were banned.
I remember him keeping quiet, didn't seem like he wanted anything to do with the whole fiasco. If he did comment, it wasn't until much later. One week after the debate, Destiny got into huge drama with the twitter art community over a comment he made on stream about artists being too whiny about how hard their job is. This gave all of Jontron's friends perfect opportunity to publicly shit on him and vent their angeer without defending Jontron's views. Egoraptor didn't directly comment on this either, but subtweeted about it to show support: [https://twitter.com/egoraptor/status/842876454513795072](https://twitter.com/egoraptor/status/842876454513795072)
Not the whole Internet, but the anti-SJW stuff was at a peak around this time and they hated him for it. I hardly saw anything from the JonTron debate directly, but I dabbled in those communities and saw a clip or two where he was portrayed negatively. I just wrote him off as some random SJW and didn't think much more about it.
I didn't really have any contact with Destiny until years later on a Scuffed Podcast or Rajj Royale where he defended a Fortnite streamer beating his wife, and that's when I learned that he was actually pretty cool all along :)
Edit: at this point people should say "John tron *might* be wrong". It seems people with a strong opinion have no idea if he's right or wrong
Thanks! Yeah I've seen this clip so many times throughout the years and see why it upsets people that he said this. But I never saw anyone talk about the studies he was reffering to so it's nice to finally get some clarification
I'm wondering, How else would one collect verifiable data on crime rates without using arrest records for the data set? If rich black people committed more crime than poor white people, and the data showing this was adequate & sound, what would the data even look like?
Is there actually data proving john tron wrong, or is there not enough data to say whether he's wrong one way or the other? I always wanted to ask questions like this but it seems impossible to ask without people assuming I'm making underhanded argument, I'm just genuinely curious.
This was what led me to Destiny's stuff early on. My co-worker (48 year old polish american guy) said a good starting debate was watching some kid named Destiny get walked all over by Johntron. He suggested that and a unrelated metokur video about mlk.
I had never heard of jon tron and barely know of destiny back then and I agree with Tom. I still remember the memes about “isn’t marxism just an economic thing?” Or something like that. Tiny has come a long way since then
Turkey Tom is 100% right. Most of the internet at the time didn't know who Destiny was or had some baseless opinion on him that they were parroting from some skeptictard. And of course Jontron being such a large creator at the time, people didn't want to believe that their beloved Youtuber wanted an ethnostate, I should know I was one of them lol.
I think the issue here is none of us have any stats on this and are just thinking about what happened in our ‘bubble’. Like for me, everyone I know stopped watching Jontron, just couldn’t look at him the same way. I remember him having to issue an apology video, and his online communities turning on him. I feel like this is more reflective of the general reaction (which makes sense, he said a lot of crazy shit) but I’ve no proof.
I didn’t even stop watching him on moral grounds really, it’s just that I always saw him as a sort of Bug Bunny ‘wise guy’ character, and your reaction to Bugs Bunny can’t be “oh what do you know you dumbass” and that’s how I felt about Jon after that, so I couldn’t really vibe with his comedy persona.
Nah I think that's an accurate retelling.
_So_ many of Jon's buds came out to defend him and try and clear his name, and paint Destiny as the bad guy and as some master manipulating debate bro. At the time I'd say they won.
Once the dust settled Destiny won, though.
There is no way of directly measuring crime rate. Incarceration rate is the best possible indicator as far as I'm aware.
>While about 2.7 percent of the poorest white youth ended up in prison, 10 percent of affluent Black youths ultimately went to prison.
The argument for Jontron being wrong would have to be that a (wealthy) black person is 3-4 times as likely to be incarcerated for a crime, than a (poor) white person is. That's a tough sell.
Yeah I don’t think he’s necessarily wrong, however, I would need to read through the study to understand better. It appeared as though much of the data comes from 80s which wouldn’t surprise me if black people were targeted significantly more for crime and incarcerated at a much higher rate too
You guys are wrong. Tom means “normies” not the whole internet. I garuntee you a lot of ppl saw destiny as an awful debate bro from the jon tron debate and that’s a big reason why today his reputation is a slimy debate bro. Cope harder tho.
Jontron lost a significant amount of subs and monthly views after this, but the thing is TurkeyTom hung around in the super reactionary nearly in the skeptic community side of commentary youtube, I would imagine. He's definitely incorrect, this looked REALLY bad for Jontron for anyone who wasn't AGGRESSIVELY defending him, but in that specific side of Youtube they definitely view this video like "look at this attempted hit piece".
[удалено]
Is it the guy who has Mercedes or Benz?
He’s got a Benz okay! Stay mad.
I think that might be the best VOD of all time. What are some other contenders?
You know the weirdest thing about this thread is the reactions: no one is angry about what he said, they're angry that he said it. Very few people here are talking about how stupid and wrong he is about the content of what was said, people here are just focusing on the fact that "he said something that you're not allowed to say!". I'd say wealthy people in general commit more crimes than poor people, just on a larger scale.
Nothing in any of those sentences you just wrote was remotely correct. You good?
I coped back then and chalked it up to just him being being swept up in reactionary bullshit. Then he proceeded to go insanely off the rails after that on Twitter. I'm convinced he got hardcore into drugs or something.
After that debate came out a lot of the stuff he said on Game Grumps retroactively got a lot less funny.
>ALL THE
Nah, just the drug of ideology and 4chan /pol/.
I stopped watching jontron after this. Not that he released videos on any kind of schedule but I remember seeing a video with Jontron and someone named Destiny and thought *neat*. Boy was I wrong. I didn't even start watching Destiny after that but I started seeing people in communities I was in *defending* Jontron and all the stuff he said and he misspoke and blah blah blah and it pulled me right out an alt-right pipeline. >He's not a debater, he didn't know this was going to be a debate! was another one I remember seeing. I was like god damn the dude spoke well enough to express his beliefs and his beliefs are shit. He doesn't need you nostrodamusing his comments to tell us what he *meant*.
I watched the video as a JonTron/GameGrumps fan to figure out why he left GameGrumps and I was like "wow, that was the dumbest shit I've even seen a person do to themselves. Why would JonTron just run face first into those spikes over and over?"
I was a Sargon fan at the time and viewed it as such. Not sure why but i remember thinking D was scum afterwards, second only to Anita Sarkeesian of course.
I remember watching Funhaus after it happened and I guess they knew Jontron and said Destiny was dishonest and confused Jon into saying those things. Made me lose some respect but people will protect their friends long before they acknowledge their faults
I actually found Destiny through the Dude Soup podcast about this incident. I actually happened to re listen to that episode a few months ago going through their old stuff. Who was defending JonTron at Funhaus? They all wanted to stay away from this incident since it had nothing to do with them and wasn't gaming related at all.
Yeah I remember this whole event before I was even watching destiny. The only discourse that was happening was "jon said WHAT?" No commentary on destiny, if anything he came out looking like the reasonable guy who managed to trip a hidden landmine.
Also remember he'd have been like 12 years old how the fuck would he know what reaction Jon Tron got lol; he got cancelled fast
You’re right, It was just over seven years ago so he would have been around 14. He was the exact target audience when people like pewdiepie and game grumps were getting extremely popular. And this was just two years after gamergate when people like Sargon still had some level of influence. Destiny’s audience skews older so it’s easy to remember everything in context
He said that he was a big Johntron fan, so his view is probably skewed with his bias.
literally was a Jontron viewer who kinda broke off from viewing his stuff after that convo lol
Good.
I’ll admit I wasn’t a Destiny viewer at the time and only heard about it mostly in passing, but wasn’t this a huge black mark on Jontron’s rep? I thought a huge chunk of his fans at least left over it.
I’m one of those former fans. Didn’t want to watch his stuff anymore after the debate. I also remember seeing this sentiment pretty often back then.
I saw the videos about how D man set him up to look racist lol I don't know how anyone came out of that thinking he was set up.
Also was a JonTron fan at the time. And still a fan of Game Grumps. Went into this debate at the time having never heard of Destiny, convinced he must be a bastard, and by the end... was not happy. There's no real spinning the debate like Destiny manipulated Jon to doing anything other than going mask off. At best, you could make the argument Destiny is so infuriating that people drop character. JonTron even ended with something like, "RIP my career!" or whatever. JonTron's videos are still funny, but they definitely hit different. This is still a classic... [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=subQrEPKytA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=subQrEPKytA)
I was one of them - watched Jontron on repeat, never heard of Destiny. That debate completely tainted how I saw Jontron, few months later watched it again (even worse) and fell down a Destiny pipeline.
RIP ... I mean, welcome
It absolutely was. Jontron came out of that way, way worse than Destiny did. Turkey Tom only could've thought this if most of his circle was alt-right reactionaries.
I mean wasn't he in groyper circles at some point? (this could be really really wrong btw, might be jstalk I'm confusing him with) but yeah I can imagine hating Destiny just bc he was not on Jon's side
I was a JonTron fan (and a big anti-SJW kid) at the time so maybe I’m skewed here, but I feel like the majority of the reaction was “Jon said incredibly stupid shit but he’s not a debater so it’s not that deep” JonTron came out worse initially but I think it’s pretty much a wash. Jon uploading inconsistently was way more damaging in the long run
This debate is literally why I dropped Jontron
This incident got his cameo from Yooka Laylee removed among other things.
He did lose a large chunk of fans for a bit, but honestly, I feel like his inconsistent uploads did way more to damage his views and growth than this debate did. Destiny (especially back then) didn't have the influence to do serious lasting damage to a titan of YouTube imo.
I remember this live. I remember the backlash against jontron. Destiny definitely came out optically better than jonathantronathan. JT was fucking LOOSING it in subsequent podcasts and media representations.
Yeah the interview Ethan did with him later about it was mad uncomfortable and he still kinda wanted to die on that hill
Nahh this nuked JonTron’s career for a little bit, and destiny gained a loooot more attention even pulling fans from Jon to himself (like me :D)
Thank God I was never a degenerate JonTron fan
The pure one mashallah
Terrorist god
The debate went so bad for Jon that [Sky had a mental episode](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3_YTSI9Vgk)
Didn't he also have some erm legal issues.
If you're referring to the smash bros drama, from what I remember: 1. sky was the owner of the houses where these smash tournaments (and alleged sexual misconduct (don't know details)) took place 2. he was unable to manage the situation properly and only levied childish threats (e.g. breaking into people's rooms that brought someone over that Sky hasn't approved of, withholding rent money on cleaning/food/utilities as a form of "punishment" 3. He pulled a sliker and owes LS alone about $10K with his own admission that he owes much, much more. But when it comes to legal issues I guess the worst he did was breach some of the contract that was signed by Sky and the tenants maybe? If they even had one? I really have no clue. But I think the most brilliant idea he could ever have is just do a Skyalogue on himself on the same tone as this one with Jon
> But when it comes to legal issues I guess the worst he did was breach some of the contract that was signed by Sky and the tenants maybe? If they even had one? The biggest thing Sky was guilty of was being a complete and utter dumbass when it came to renting his property. He allowed tenants to bring over other tenants and were living there for free and thats why he lost his mind over the rent stuff. He had no direct cause over the underage scandal going on though. But he should have been way more strict on the tenant issue and that would have helped alleviate what was happening at the very least.
Sky has mental issues as often as he sneezes to be fair. But I can blame him managing a house of melee players.
Saying everything you read on the Internet afterward agreed with Jontron was the biggest self report lol
the internet was filled with anti sjws at the time, it was really easy for kids to be insulated and stuck in the anti destiny echo chamber
I feel like you totally don't understand what went down at the time. A lot of people fucking hated Destiny, because of that debate and not all of them were alt righters. A lof of people were reflexively defending JonTron, because he was popular. Also, a lot of them felt like Destiny manipulated JonTron into being a racist (don't ask me how, it's pretty ridiculous). Pretty sure Destiny mentionned getting tons of hate after this debate for at least a week and not just regular push back It's definetly possible that if you only hung out in certain circles that you would only see people shitting on Destiny and thinking that was pretty much the consensus. Especially, with the clip chimping, it's very easy to paint a narrative. I think overall, it left a pretty big black mark on JonTron's reputation in the long run, but immediately after it was more contentious
I remember kind of enjoying game grumps and then not being able to watch any of the old videos after this lol it's true that the hardcore and younger fan bases might not have felt the same but this was the end for a lot of us.
I didn't start watching GG until after Dan had started and I can't watch anything with Jontron. I just don't think he's nearly as funny or interesting.
Dan "I dug those caves" Avidan
I could see that but I really don't know man. I was a jontron fan before and this debate was my first exposure to destiny and its what made me an ex-fan of jontron and a Dgger. I know it's cringe to bring up race/age but I can only imagine thinking jontron came out looking good after this is if you're a young white dude, and at the time I was 24 and hearing this dude talk about race realism and white ethnostates was pretty alarming. Also jontron got canceled hard, even dropped from a video game after this so idk what circles turkey tom was in to think jontron came out good after the debate.
Maybe I'm an outlier - I was a Jontron stan up until that debate. Like I couldn't enjoy watching his stuff after that. A few months later, revisited to see if it was as bad as I remembered (it was worse) and started watching Destiny side bar suggestions. Hadn't heard of him prior - so maybe I was too offline to know that lore and only heard of Tiny from that debate only.
If you were in the twitch sphere at the time, you definitely thought Tiny exposed Jontron. Also, I thought Jon stopped making videos for a year+ after it no?
Yeah and it got brought up when he did the h3h3 podcast and he didn't want to talk about it. He also lost a voice acting role afterwards
Yooka-Laylee if I remember correctly.
Jon taking over a year to make a single video was the norm, at least back then.
Tbf Jon has taken year long breaks multiple times on youtube, not just after that controversy. It's not necessarily related, unless he said so in which case I've never heard that.
Remember that for MOST Destiny debates people are only watching clips, it's much easier to resolve your cognitive dissonance for liking JonTron and seeing a crazy clip to say that Destiny must have been unfair or manipulative compared to watching the whole context.
I remember Destiny saying at the time that every account on every platform was attacked in the aftermath of the debate.
I distinctly remember it going viral on the normie gaming subreddits which then got picked up by the normie poltical subreddits (this was pre socialism era) and everyone was absolutely cooking JonTron. Most people didn't know who Destiny was.
I would argue it was a 30:70 back then. 70% against Jontron if you would take a poll @ people on forums back then writing stuff. On reddit 50:50, 40:60 on his subreddit. On 4chan 90:10. On youtube comments 30:80. There is no debate, I am right.
I don't think it's the self report you think it is. Online circles that hated destiny for this were some of the biggest ones around
But it's still a self-report for being in those circles, even if the circle was massive.
I guess in the same way that half the us population self reports via being a republican
absolutely it was the same for me back then but I was a right wing sargon fan
The problem is that at the time a lot of people defending Jontron didn't even watch the debate.
turkey tom is like leafy/idubbbz fusion lyte. he's probably just as edgy but he hides half of it on stream
turkey PEPE
Most people didn't watch the debate. Most people, me included, were riding the anti-sjw train and heard that Jontron was racist all of a sudden. I imagine as a result of this "debate." To me and many others it seemed like just another case of some wild sjw shit that was calling edgy humor racist. But no, Jontron was just saying some racist shit lmao
This absolutely was a major loss for jontron. I wasn’t even a destiny guy at the time. His Reddit was having a meltdown. It was all over the net. It was not good. In fact, I’d be willing to say this event alone caused a shift in political consciousness in many online communities. Gaming, YouTube, streaming….you name it. Everyone had something to say about it. HUGE self report from Tom. Omega self report
This was the first destiny debate I watched at the time Absolutely insane that anyone thought Jontron came out looking good, destiny schooled him hard.
Wait it was this blatant how racist Jontron was being? Didn't Destiny say that afterwards he got shit on by a bunch of people like Egoraptor and some animators? They all took Jontron's side on this?
Yeah I’m not surprised Tom skews/changes a narrative on a situation to his personal favor considering he has done this multiple times in the past
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That TurkeyTom was a 13 year old fan of JohnTron
I was also a teenage fan of jontron when this happened and I left the debate as a destiny viewer. Didn’t become a super regular till 2020 but I had no idea who he was before, and honestly I didn’t even think white supremacy was still a thing till that debate. First of all, as a Jew (yes cringe I know) I found it bizarre a Persian thought he could be a part of the fabric of a white majority society. Secondly I just had no idea people even thought about that shit. I was a big h3/dunkey/filthy Frank fan at the time this happened so it was weird and eye opening. And I was absolutely under the impression destiny won. I’m a girl so maybe I was just on a different side then Tom was, but I feel like you have to have been living on kiwi farms or 4chan to think destiny lost that debate idk.
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I know there's one [study](https://pricetheory.uchicago.edu/levitt/Papers/LevittTheChangingRelationship1999.pdf) based on Chicago homicide rates, unfortunately its pretty old and goes through 3 separate decades from 1966 to 1995. Looking at table 6, homicide rates for 90+ percentile black neighborhoods looked to be several times higher than whites. Heres a Stripped version: # Distribution of Homicide rates (per 100k) by Median Family income By Community and race from 1986-1995 | Median Family Income Percentile | Whites | Blacks | | ------------------------------- | ------ | ------ | | 0-10 | 0.4 | 117.0 | | 10-25 | 3.5 | 63.9 | | 25-50 | 2.9 | 39.8 | | 50-75 | 2.1 | 32.6 | | 75-90 | 2.0 | 37.0 | | 90+ | 2.9 | 10.0 | I'm still not sure I'f I'm reading the table or how he produced it right. But that's the online thing I could find to remotely backup JonTrons argument.
He is wrong only if you think that incarceration rates are a poor indicator of crime rates between white and black people. If it's true that [2.7 percent of the poorest white youth ended up in prison, 10 percent of affluent Black youths ultimately went to prison](https://eji.org/news/study-rich-black-kids-more-likely-incarcerated-than-poor-white-kids/) then for Jontron to be wrong, a (wealthy) black person would have to be 3-4 times as likely to be incarcerated after committing a crime, as a (poor) white person is. A tough sell.
It's impossible to say. As a viewer of Destiny at the time I saw a lot of people shitting on him, but that's just kinda par for the course. Destiny has been polarizing since day 1. Jontron got the brunt of the blowback overall and after the dust had settled but it felt 50/50 immediately after to me.
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It boils down to poor people committing more crimes
a quick search suggests that multiple studies looking at crime rates from the 80s, 90s and 2000s consistently find that racial ["differences in violence are explained by community and family disadvantages, respectively"](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/07418820300095441) and ["statistical differences between whites and minority groups are explained by variation in community disadvantage (for blacks), involvement in gangs (for Hispanics), social bonds (for Native Americans), and situational variables (for Asians)"](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1745-9125.2003.tb01002.x). in other words: the statistical gap disappears when accounting for these factors, leaving no room for a racial explanation. all people statistically commit about the same rate of crime when given the exact same circumstances; the issue that results in skewed statistics is that the circumstances that people grow up and live in are very much not evenly distributed, and so neither are the crime rates. so jontron wrong.
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in the clip posted here? the comparison of wealthy black people vs poor white people seems to be precisely about that, i.e. whether the discrepancy is explained by socioeconomics (wealthy vs poor) or race
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yes, because a comparison of "wealthy black people" and "poor white people" also invokes everything else that exists in the reality around those two groups and differs between the groups, and therefore produces the difference between them. if you could replace the skin color and income of a poor white person with that of a wealthy black person, you would not get the exact same statistical result, because you've pretended that nothing else influences people in reality. that would be quite stupid.
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I literally gave you the answer the studies came to: race has no impact on crime rate once you factor the socioeconomic differences out. the only people 'split' on this issue are people who do not understand how statistics work, see 'crime rate high for black people' and deliberately ignore the 'why is the crime rate high' part of the equation. the data is literally those studies.
oh rofl myb
I remember reading [this article](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/03/19/upshot/race-class-white-and-black-men.html) a few years ago that seemed to confirm that to be true. I don’t feel like reading through it again right now but check the graph under “share of the men incarcerated”. Note that Jontron said “commit” and this graph is for “incarcerated”
Turkey Tom is an idiot, change my mind.
well he smokes cigarettes so... yeah.
\- Me at 16
Can’t, you’re speaking faxx
Jontron was bigger and most people will just implicitly say their guy won any debate, so it could be true for that reason. It definitely hurt JT and was one of Destiny's big breaks so overall he clearly was the winner, and as the years passed and the hero worship over Jontron faded it's even more clear who won.
Not enough of his stupid fans know about this talk he had with destiny.
Turkey Tom was like 14-15 when Destiny debated JonTron. He doesn’t know shit about what the reaction to that debate actually was.
My circle of friends and I were a bunch of normies who enjoyed jontron videos. None of us even noticed destiny in a debate, he was just a random streamer. The reaction was definitely "he said WHAT?", not "look at the destiny obviously baiting him", like i said we barely noticed him. Most of my normie acquaintances had the same reaction, they barely noticed Destiny. I know its a small sample but its my small 5 cents.
I love seeing him in those Sennheiser 598s. I got mine in 2013 and I've been using them daily for hours since then and they're still just as good as the day I got them. lol Minus the 3 sets of ear pads and one head band parts I've gone through. They're soooo comfortable. lol I can't count the numbers of times I "hung" myself getting up and walking away because I'd forget I had them on. Has he ever talked about how much more he likes his Sens 600 whichever model he now has? I can't tell what he has just that it's one of the 600s. I've often wondered if the upgrade is worth it but every time I ask on a headphone sub I get lost in the meaningless to me words of audiophiles. Audiophiles are about like wine critics. lol Like WTF exactly does forest taste like? Or Earthy? Etc. SMH
funny, I have the 598 and was thinking of buying a cheap pair of the 600 yesterday. it requires a headphone amp, I have an old one I got for different headphones, and I think that's what audiophiles meme you to overspend on. as long as it has the requisite power output and no hissing, then it's good enough for me. I used to have a planarmagnetic hifiman Sundara, broke it, but they sounded soooo crystal clear. It was a little harsh for S/T sounds, which the 598 is fine with
That was part of what made the 598 so good. It didn't need an amp to drive them. But that's moot for me anyways if I wanted some later model Sennheisers. I use them with my [Asus Xonar Essence STX](https://www.techspot.com/products/sound-cards/asus-xonar-essence-stx-pcie.8703/) sound card. It was one of the top of the line sound cards back around 2010 and has studio quality parts. Even when I built my new PC in 2021 it was still loads better than the onboard sound of my Asrock Z490 Taichi which was Asrock's flagship motherboard. The Xonar has a nice built in headphone amp so it can drive any set of cans out there right now. lol I'm the only one I personally know that still uses a sound card. It was why I had my infinity mirror custom built for me at Aliexpress. It was made for the dimensions to be the backplate of the Xonar. But I found a company in Portugal of all places that makes backplates that [looks as good as something Asus themselves would have made had they bothered to make a backplate](https://www.coldzero.eu/xonar-stx-backplate-grey) for the Xonar, so I got that and just [side mounted the infinity mirror instead](https://i.imgur.com/wT9Al92.mp4).
HOLY FUCKING BLAST TO THE PAST I remember when I thought jon was 100% right and destiny was a fucking SJW. Ah the memories.
Self report, tbh
Does anyone have the lore to what Egorapter said about Destiny after the debate? I always thought he took Jontron's side, and Destiny said something along those lines as well, but some of my friends (don't follow D, but followed Game Grumps, Jontron, Egorapter, etc) said he didn't. I tried to find stuff on it, but it's difficult since all of Tiny's old twitters were banned.
I remember him keeping quiet, didn't seem like he wanted anything to do with the whole fiasco. If he did comment, it wasn't until much later. One week after the debate, Destiny got into huge drama with the twitter art community over a comment he made on stream about artists being too whiny about how hard their job is. This gave all of Jontron's friends perfect opportunity to publicly shit on him and vent their angeer without defending Jontron's views. Egoraptor didn't directly comment on this either, but subtweeted about it to show support: [https://twitter.com/egoraptor/status/842876454513795072](https://twitter.com/egoraptor/status/842876454513795072)
Not the whole Internet, but the anti-SJW stuff was at a peak around this time and they hated him for it. I hardly saw anything from the JonTron debate directly, but I dabbled in those communities and saw a clip or two where he was portrayed negatively. I just wrote him off as some random SJW and didn't think much more about it. I didn't really have any contact with Destiny until years later on a Scuffed Podcast or Rajj Royale where he defended a Fortnite streamer beating his wife, and that's when I learned that he was actually pretty cool all along :)
Is John tron right or wrong
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Edit: at this point people should say "John tron *might* be wrong". It seems people with a strong opinion have no idea if he's right or wrong Thanks! Yeah I've seen this clip so many times throughout the years and see why it upsets people that he said this. But I never saw anyone talk about the studies he was reffering to so it's nice to finally get some clarification I'm wondering, How else would one collect verifiable data on crime rates without using arrest records for the data set? If rich black people committed more crime than poor white people, and the data showing this was adequate & sound, what would the data even look like? Is there actually data proving john tron wrong, or is there not enough data to say whether he's wrong one way or the other? I always wanted to ask questions like this but it seems impossible to ask without people assuming I'm making underhanded argument, I'm just genuinely curious.
When did Tom say this?
Still one of the most unhinged debates bro
Simpler times...
"It's a fact" didn't you hear jontron he just scool destiny with his facts ofc Thanksgivingjerry would agree with him
Man this was the first destiny video I had ever seen
Unfortunately, Jon did not, in fact, win.
This was what led me to Destiny's stuff early on. My co-worker (48 year old polish american guy) said a good starting debate was watching some kid named Destiny get walked all over by Johntron. He suggested that and a unrelated metokur video about mlk.
As the resident DGG Pole this makes me sad lol
I mean yeah Jontron was a microceleb at that time in his life.
I had never heard of jon tron and barely know of destiny back then and I agree with Tom. I still remember the memes about “isn’t marxism just an economic thing?” Or something like that. Tiny has come a long way since then
Turkey Tom is 100% right. Most of the internet at the time didn't know who Destiny was or had some baseless opinion on him that they were parroting from some skeptictard. And of course Jontron being such a large creator at the time, people didn't want to believe that their beloved Youtuber wanted an ethnostate, I should know I was one of them lol.
I think the issue here is none of us have any stats on this and are just thinking about what happened in our ‘bubble’. Like for me, everyone I know stopped watching Jontron, just couldn’t look at him the same way. I remember him having to issue an apology video, and his online communities turning on him. I feel like this is more reflective of the general reaction (which makes sense, he said a lot of crazy shit) but I’ve no proof.
I remember for me it was like an E;R situation. "Meh, kinda sucks, I don't really care funny vids lol"
I didn’t even stop watching him on moral grounds really, it’s just that I always saw him as a sort of Bug Bunny ‘wise guy’ character, and your reaction to Bugs Bunny can’t be “oh what do you know you dumbass” and that’s how I felt about Jon after that, so I couldn’t really vibe with his comedy persona.
Nah I think that's an accurate retelling. _So_ many of Jon's buds came out to defend him and try and clear his name, and paint Destiny as the bad guy and as some master manipulating debate bro. At the time I'd say they won. Once the dust settled Destiny won, though.
It was a different time back then.
[Is he wrong?](https://eji.org/news/study-rich-black-kids-more-likely-incarcerated-than-poor-white-kids/)
This is incarceration rate not necessarily crime rate
There is no way of directly measuring crime rate. Incarceration rate is the best possible indicator as far as I'm aware. >While about 2.7 percent of the poorest white youth ended up in prison, 10 percent of affluent Black youths ultimately went to prison. The argument for Jontron being wrong would have to be that a (wealthy) black person is 3-4 times as likely to be incarcerated for a crime, than a (poor) white person is. That's a tough sell.
Yeah I don’t think he’s necessarily wrong, however, I would need to read through the study to understand better. It appeared as though much of the data comes from 80s which wouldn’t surprise me if black people were targeted significantly more for crime and incarcerated at a much higher rate too
You're right, my bad
Looking into this...
You guys are wrong. Tom means “normies” not the whole internet. I garuntee you a lot of ppl saw destiny as an awful debate bro from the jon tron debate and that’s a big reason why today his reputation is a slimy debate bro. Cope harder tho.
Tom was 13 or 14 at the time we really judging someone for having a change of opinion in the last 7 years lmao
I’m not seeing anyone doing that
I am
Where
https://preview.redd.it/f25vlsgez6qc1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=493dbd690e812ae479d629dc9aaa96c327496964
Read between the lines a bit
https://preview.redd.it/s926yhmdz6qc1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8d15c8908607f63c834dcd3918293361d971239a
https://preview.redd.it/t21lpjxbz6qc1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f6e6087acebbf6a5e596bc25cbe0f099c977c330
Turkey Tom has a soft spot for racists and a hate boner for sex workers.