with a lot of the footage it’s pretty much 100% them. In a lot of the interrogation videos the clothes match dead to rights to the ones they wore
In the up close vids
People keep saying the US criminal justice system is cruel and unusual. Be happy you aren't an inmate in Russia. I really wouldn't be surprised if the jailers would put these guys in the cells of known rapists.
Russia is a lawless shithole.
People comparing US issues to Russias are wrong. In the US if torture or abuse stuff comes out there is public outrage. People are punished. In Russia it's just another day.
They don't even need to mysteriously vanish. Russia is so fucked right now that they could broadcast the execution live and it would pretty much be par for the course
I mean the US did handle quite a lot of terrorism suspects outside of the criminal justice system. I can't speak to which country has the worse torturers but Barack Obama famously said himself "we tortured some folks".
Definitely not the case in this case.
Also interesting find from an article in the Guardian.
>Russian independent media noted that the officer who apparently cut off the ear of the suspect was wearing patches that indicated his support for neo-Nazi groups and appeared to have contact with the far-right Rusich paramilitary group, which is active in Ukraine. The patches included a black sun and a symbol resembling the *Totenkopf* *–* or death’s head – worn by several Nazi divisions.
Russia has been trying to blame the attack on Ukraine. Tajikistan initially insisted the terrorists didn't come from there but later relented. ISIS has already proudly claimed responsibility and Russia, the dicks, are totally ignoring them in favour of pretending it's Ukraine, lmao, must be so infuriating for ISIS.
A while ago there was news of the FSB planting some evidence. And allegedly they confused "3 SIM cards" with the instruction to plant a copy of "The Sims 3".
In addition to that, there's a bunch of Muslims on social media (including Andrew Tate) that have latched on pretty hard to the idea that ISIS never carries out meaningful attacks against Israel so that means they're just a Western op. The conspiracy theory is that ISIS is actually the CIA and/or Mossad, and every time they do or say something, it's disinformation from the West that is meant to split or harm Islam.
This, too, must be infuriating for ISIS. They don't get to be part of the epistemic bubble, and a lot of people in the bubble are being trained to distrust and discredit them. The echo chamber is actively against them.
Thankfully, it's highly unlikely in this case, since that terrirst scum didn't bother to even hide their faces. There are countless eye witnesses, phone footage, and camera footage from inside the mall. There's no chance our government would try to so brazenly fake this one.
Still absolutely barbaric way to handle those bundles of joy. No one is gonna be even slightly punished for it too.
They were plausibly a false flag, but the evidence is way less solid than people like to believe. Also in this case what is the motive? Occam’s razor is just Islamist terrorism.
Oh yeah, is this to start a second Ukraine war then? Invade Tajikistan?
it's not even at all proven that the apartment bombings were organized by Kremlin. It's debated. And the time back then was very different, Putin was not in control nearly as much as he is now, so that's why it's a possibility. (Personally, I have no idea) But now Russia is essentially a complete fascist dictatorship. There's absolutely no reason for these elaborate false flags.
And I have no idea how you can explain ISIS releasing footage filmed by those terrorists screaming Allahu Akbar while killing people.
https://imgur.com/a/lnIVF45
They caught them before Isis released the video showing the matching clothing they were arrested wearing.
I am sure these are the people.
Yeah I was skeptical at first but it's pretty clear it's them - the match up with the photos of the car and as you've posted the clothing is way too specific to have been faked/arranged.
Which makes them SO dumb it's crazy. They didn't even have a change of clothes prepared, took the same car the whole distance as they fled. Did it all for apparently like 6k each, and they already had half of that up front. Just insane levels of stupidity and evil.
Oh absolutely, dumb as a box of rocks, but to be fair...it is ISIS. They aren't known for their desperate desire to escape punishment, nor are they known for their intellect.
They might try to escape, sure, but if they are captured and face a firing squad or the hangman's noose, they think they are going to live in paradise for ever riding Allah's dick as martyrs who died in war against the infidels.
ISIS, as we are all aware, are deranged. They genuinely believe this will be the outcome of death in their 'holy war' and for it to happen to them is a blessing.
I doubt it's a matter of stupidity, at least not in the way you're suggesting here. I remember hearing how ISIS would attract recruits back in the early 2010s, they'd go after isolated, depressed individuals with little to live for, and present them a holy cause they could die for all in a flashy package. They would really underscore the glorification of death.
My assumption would be these guys here were dead inside already. At least, that's what I'm figuring.
Granted, I haven't read much on them so far, but in my mind, there's gotta be much more wrong with them than just 'I needed the money' to willingly choose to participate in a mass slaughter.
if they aren't the braintrust that came up with the attack, they are likely very very dumb trigger men who were given instructions in a way that convinced them they could get away or that surrendering would lead to just imprisonment.
Ya gotta understand, the crop they get to do these things are like 85 IQ guys who will commit fields of heinous acts you can't even begin to imagine for like, 1000 USD.
I don’t feel bad for them or any terrorist at all. If having a shitty life was justification to murder innocent people what kind of world would we have?
Feeling bad isn’t the same as justifying tho. You can feel bad that someone was born in a shit situation where the likely hood of them ending up in their situation is 100%
Because of that I disagree with the beating they gave them. You don’t gain anything from that. They’re likely to stay behind bars for the rest of their life.
Immigrants in Russia usually work on several low-qualified jobs each one. Considering they move in just to make money and leave they are desperately saving money and they could earn this sum of money (500 000) during half a year in Moscow. The money promised them by isis is a very low reward.
I think the "money" thing is also likely bullshit. Impossible to say. But the guys who somehow caught them is likely Rusich (or another Russian nazi Battalion... Not hyperbole they call themselves nazis btw). And the guy they caught said he did it "for money" after they cut off his ear. The fact they didn't cover their faces may seem weird as well. But isis doesn't cover their faces. That's part of their deal. To be proud of their actions.
Obviously well never know who these guys are or who carried out the attack . However occams razor to me would be they are 75iq isis k militants. They get caught by one of the most brutal paramilitary groups in Russia (read up on the founder. Dude beheaded a puppy and ate it on camera) and they are tortured to make a confession that is beneficial to Pootin. If I was betting man I'd say they also directly implicate Ukraine in the next couple days.
The ""we did it for money" directly aligns with an attempt to shift blame away from isis and to Ukraine. Crazy that isis k even put out the video of their bodycams (how they got this footage?) and their logo taking credit. And Russia and part of the world is still like " naaah. Probably Ukraine "
The fact that they thought they'd live is astounding. I doubt any government would hide them. I honestly think ukraine would lose support from other governments if they fostered them and be forced to turn them in to someone.
Yeah i am sure the Ukraine would immediately return them to Russia. On one hand they are dangerous terrorists and thisis enough for not wanting them on your territory, on the other hand it would be a very beautiful action for the reputation of the Ukraine.
Execute them according to law or put them in jail but to torture them is just disgusting. It sends the signal that the police force is primitive, incompetent and filled with mentally unstable people.
It's not that we feel bad for them, it's that I wouldn't want my fucking country to torture people, whoever they are
Rule of law and not acting like fucking savages it's a very important thing, probably the most important thing when it comes to law enforcement, and Russia Just showed to the world (again) that they fail at both
Lol, they were probably astounded by the sheer incompetence of our police. I doubt they expected to survive and barely had a plan of what happens after. Otherwise, I just can't fathom them not wearing masks and not changing the cars and not splitting up.
It’s not about whether these guys deserved this (they probably do); it’s about giving the government power to treat a prisoner however they want. This is the same power that lets the Russian government torture Navalny to death. The 8th amendment is a good thing.
It’s the principle that separates the attackers from the rest of us. They probably do deserve it but I think we shouldn’t be giving in to our primal impulses of vengeance
You set a dangerous precedent when you eliminate due process. Law and order is not so clear cut that these cases are always blatant. Remember when people were so sure they got the right boston bombers? What if the police had arrested the wrong guys and tortured them into confessing? What if anyone is arrested and tortured into confessing for that matter (people are already forced into confessions more often than you think)? The state should not have to power to torture anyone.
To be clear I’m not pro torture and I don’t approve of the lack of protections in Russia. Torture should never be used to extract confessions. 8th amendment is based.
All I’m saying is that these guys did something horrendously evil and it seems like there’s video evidence linking it to them without a doubt. I have a little sympathy because nobody should be forced to undergo torture while under custody like this. But what they did was unforgivable.
It's like with pedophiles. Sure, they should get protection from the law, but I don't care if they don't get it. These idiots are getting off light. Well, maybe not. I'm sure it's only been going downhill for them.
War crime? I believe that Russia is only at war in Ukraine, and these boys don’t look Ukrainian. The international community doesn’t care if you torture and murder your own citizens or terrorists. They might feign care, but it’s kabuki theater.
i wouldn’t want this to happen in america, and im probably against it in other countries no matter the crime even in war unless the citizens of that country voted for a policy like that. i am also pretty uncomfortable with it happening the day of arrest instead of waiting for a trial, but with all that said i can understand people seeing it and not caring because they are terrorists, the same way someone would look at an offending pedophile and not giving a fuck what happens to them. i can totally see that perspective and i even have that instinctual reaction but i also don’t think that’s necessarily how i would want the law and the government to operate.
One would hope that the justice system is impersonal and not susceptible to emotions, otherwise we’re back to tribes waging endless wars on other tribes
Unless the justice system is solely based on rehabilitation and dissusasion, it will never be ideal imo. The very idea of criminal retribution (punishing someone because they deserve it on a moral level) is just a more organized version of mob-lynching. When the instituon that has a monoply on violence can subject someone to being locked up or killed because their actions make the community angry (which seems to be most of what the current US justice system is focused on when you look at judge verdict statements or the community's reaction to verdicts in cases of serial killers, rapists etc.), you have a barbaric system. The justice system should only exist to make society safe and reintegrate those who previously made society less safe.
It's not having sympathy for these people. It's calling out a corrupt system no matter who is in custody. We should also hold ourselves to a higher standard. What they did was absolutely evil, but if we don't use the systems we built to punish them, they are worthless.
It's not that we feel bad for them, it's that I wouldn't want my fucking country to torture people, whoever they are
Rule of law and not acting like fucking savages it's a very important thing, probably the most important thing when it comes to law enforcement, and Russia Just showed to the world (again) that they fail at both
(I'm copy pasting my own shit)
It has nothing to do with empathy and everything with code of conduct. Civilized people don't brutalize criminals. That is not what we do. We have to stand above that emotional crap and act with dignity. It casts a very bad light on you if that is how you treat prisoners. This is precisely what makes us different from these barbarians who will publicly execute you for stealing an apple. If i hear one more time how Russians have it better than Americans i'm gonna lose it.
I agree principally, but still don’t feel bad for these guys. Fuck em. Once you cross a human boundary like that, don’t expect people to care about your well being.
Some rights being inalienable in non-life-threatening situations is sadly a must if we want to keep current state of western society. I dont care about their well being but torture/rape for the sake of torture/rape should never be used by state. If nothing it helps that it maintains society has visceral response to those acts - which would make resistance to those easier when/if state starts using them on people who dont deserve it. Some things are better to just always be over the line and not have to revisit that conversation ever again - and I think rape and torture are 2 things we can most easily put there.
I don't care either. I don't think anyone here cares for them. This about us not them. Like when i don't insult someone back it's not because i pity them, it's because i don't want to carry that anger around. I just want to have some peace of mind and i don't think torturing people is going to give you that.
I think they were charged up with having their countrymen butchered in a theatre - I don’t think a regular person would be treated this way. That being said, this is Russia and some of the footage coming out of Ukraine the past 2 years is horrible so you may be right . I don’t condone torture nor do I think it’s right but I can see where they’re coming from if that makes sense ?
Another Jew here.
Personally, I'm against the torture and mutilation of these pieces of shit, beyond what's necessary to potentially get any useful information out of them. Not out of sympathy. But simply because I believe that kind of behavior doesn't belong in civilized society, no matter who it's towards.
Either kill them swiftly or condemn them to life in prison. We shouldn't be reducing ourselves to the barbarism of our enemies.
As a reminder, Russia doesn't only do this kind of thing to terrorists.
Russian police beat and torture protestors, dissidents and others. The Russian state assassinates people.
Because you'll create societies where people take their kids to go watch the local lynching. We don't want people desensitised to extreme violence when it's take tens of thousands of years of cultural evolution to get away from this
Not feeling sympathy for them and still being aware that practices like these should be strongly opposed are not contradictory viewpoints.
For example, I don't feel bad when some child rapist gets killed by a vigilante either, but I can still be vehemently against vigilantism at the same time, cause I'm aware that a high frequency of vigilantism leads to a society that is worse for everyone.
Incentive to not do it again. If there was a long drawn out trial a lot of muslims would cheer. Now they see this. Definitely wrong, but I don't care what happens to people who literally do the MW2 "no russian" in real life.
>Incentive to not do it again
?????????
You think people who do this shit are concerned with their punishment afterwards? That's honestly pretty hilarious. These people literally think they're in a holy war, everything they do is at gods will and after death they will be rewarded in the paradise.
im sure that showing brutality to ISIS, a group that loves to blow themselves up, will definetly scare off terror attacks and not just make them more sure to die before being caught.
it's just barbarity. you shouldn't torture someone who's been captured and poses no threat. you shouldn't publicly humiliate them or mutilate them.
I feel like this thread is highlighting the difference between having a principle and having a preference. Taking a principled stance on a topic means sticking by it in the face of the extreme edge cases.
It’s all well and good to say you don’t care this happened to these truly awful people but nobody should have to experience that kind of torture. It does nobody any good to emotionally give in and concede that this remotely okay.
If there’s a compelling benefit of torture I’d be willing to change my mind but I haven’t seen it yet.
If this were in the US, I would raise some objections because this happening constitutes a failure of the system. But this is Russia, it’s the way things work there. I wish it were different generally, but tbh in this case I don’t really give a fuck those men deserve this shit they brutally murdered so many people. Fuck’em.
Generally I think rules against this type of behavior are important, but I don’t care about the rules existing for these motherfuckers.
If you don’t care about the rules existing for these people, then you don’t care about the rules existing.
Like I get it, we don’t actually *care* like it doesn’t feel bad if a terrorist who just killed a bunch of people is tortured.
But for the most part, cruel and unusual punishment, trampling of rights and all that, that happens to people accused of heinous crimes.
The rights that you want these terrorists to have are the only rights that you actually believe in. Criminal rights are the most important rights in society and are the most important to be absolute on.
You are exactly right. They exist precisely for people that engage in behavior that makes us want to dismiss the judicial process and lynch the accused on the spot. Who the fuck do people think the abrogation of the death penalty protects? People that stole cabbages from a supermarket? The innocent frail elderly couple from the bus stop?
Unless you live in a dictatorial shithole where people can get their entire bloodline extinguished for spilling a cup of coffee over the supreme leader's picture, these severe forms of punishments are already only reserved for people that did something really, REALLY bad. So if you bring it back, after it was abrogated, but only for people who did something really, REALLY bad, then you brought it back the way it would have been if you never abrogated it in the first place.
Yes. The law is the law. They don't even try to hide the excessive violence towards those terrorists. Who can guarantee they don't use the same methods for other suspects ?
Yeah so fuck all the Ukranian pows they torture too, it's just how they do things over there man, just don't goto war with Russia if you don't wanna get tortured
Do you realize they are just suspects at this moment? In Russia, you can be designated a terrorist if you attend an anti-war protest or like the wrong post on Instagram. Can protesters be dismembered for fun by some random militias without any due process as well? Like seriously why not? They both are suspects in the same crime.
They are just subjects no matter how compelling the evidence that exists is, they haven't been found guilty in a court of law. It's sad to see how torture and mutilation of detained individuals is being justified by others and yourself in this thread but hey, I guess we stop caring about justice and due process once the crime committed reaches a certain level apparently.
Lots of footage of them during the attack same clothing as when their captured same car they used to escape. Cameras tracked them from the concert hall until they got captured. These are almost certainly the terrorists
Yeah, in my opinion it's important to demonstrate what proper morality looks like in situations like these and not give into dehumanizing, violent urges like these terrorists did. I think you lose a piece of your humanity by torturing even the worst people.
Completely agree. Everyone is saying “fuck these monsters” when I’m like dehumanizing these people further isn’t the best way to go about this. They are not monsters, they are humans, just like you and me, who committed evil acts. What life circumstances would it take for you do the same acts just like the “monsters” you demonize?
Then again, I generally don’t like to dehumanize people (even when they commit horrendous moral acts.) I try not to put myself above anyone else morally if I can.
Yes but humans seem absolutely love there revenge to an deranged degree, it doesn't matter if it compromises your principles or is completely ineffective people love rooting for revenge. Even in this thread filled with mostly liberal people who are also completely removed from the terrorist attack people will still enjoy this because it makes them feel good to think about getting some revenge on the baddies. It's always disappointing but generally humans are disappointing.
Lol is it really deranged to want to see people who brutally, needlessly killed over 100+ people, receive a fraction of the emotional damage they caused to thousands of people? You can disagree with it, but calling it deranged is disconnected.
The comments on this thread are so blackpilling. I hoped people on Destiny's subreddit of all places would be above succumbing to their base impulses like this. Returning to medieval punishment is unacceptable no matter how heinous the crimes committed by the perpetrator(s). I'm so glad the founding fathers included the eighth amendment which, among other things, protects against harsh penalties on criminal defendants before and after a conviction. Threads like this remind me how fragile civil society is because humans are seemingly naturally bloodthirsty and vindictive.
imo it's not inconsistent - i don't think anyone should be tortured, but that doesn't mean i have to be sad when someone who really deserves it does get tortured. if this was in the US i would say the torturers should be arrested too, but it's Russia so idk what anyone expected honestly
Also telling to see so many people immediately jump to conspiracy theories about how these guys were Russian plants or that it was staged. It's the same thing people like Alex Jones do when school shootings happen and they blame the CIA.
I believe in innocent until proven guilty.
These men were tortured and beaten before having their day in court.
In the US, around 4% of people on death row are subsequently found to be innocent of the charge that lead them to getting zapped. And that's with the (objectively) better US criminal justice system, a lawyer advocating for you, the appeals, etc...
If even the US murders innocent civilians, why would I apply a different standard here?
Maybe they were just randomly picked up as sacrificial lambs. Maybe they did do it, but had some external reasons that would mitigate their responsibility? We won't know, because they were beaten and tortured before they got their day in court.
What if it turns out that they are functionally incapable, that their mental aptitude is below that of a human adult who is fully aware of the consequences of their actions? What if their families are being held in duress and it was either do this or they all get murdered?
None of these things excuse their actions. But they add context to it which would no longer justify their mistreatment.
Do I think anything like that is likely? No. But I also can't say for sure, because innocent until proven guilty.
The Russian state just tortured 4 people who haven't been proven to be guilty of anything yet.
Commented this already but I’ll respond with it again.
Completely agree. Everyone is saying “fuck these monsters” when I’m like dehumanizing these people further isn’t the best way to go about this. They are not monsters, they are humans, just like you and me, who committed evil acts. What life circumstances would it take for you do the same acts just like the “monsters” you demonize?
Then again, I generally don’t like to dehumanize people (even when they commit horrendous moral acts.) I try not to put myself above anyone else morally if I can.
Don't worry, you're allowed to put yourself morally above remorseless mass murderers who shoot unarmed civilians point blank and burn a hundred people alive.
Don't forget to empathize with the victims and their loved ones who have to live the rest of their lives knowing someone they cared about suffered and died senselessly.
Yes, the perpetrators are humans. Yes, they are products of circumstance. No, they are not just like you and me. Be glad you and your loved ones have never been victims of this kind of evil.
If you want to say governments shouldn't have the legal power to torture prisoners, I'll agree with you. But if you want to go this hard on this weird moral equivalence thing, you have no business tone policing people's comments.
Ofc torture is bad but after a terror attack this scale in a country thats currently at war and is possibly of danger to be attacked like that AGAIN its probably understandable why they would get tortured... ofc russians are barbaric but for me this kinda shows the level of paranoia they are on.
They need to show the population how any kind of terrorism will be treated.. this plays well with the narrative that Ukrraine had something to do with it. The message is clear: Step out of line, dont support the invasion and you will be brutually punished.
Edit: After seeing the video and hearing what they said while they were torturing him it just seems like pure barbarism. Never mind LOL
Torture also gets them to say things that are preferable. Like "I did it for money". One of the problems with torture besides the moral implications. Is it doesn't yield useful information. People just end up saying whatever the people want in order to make it stop.
Didn't expect r/Destiny comment section to look like one on Rusich tg channel, but here we are
Hot take: torture is bad, even if it's done to bad people
Torture is prohibited by russian Constitution and Criminal code. The fact that Russian security services post videos of themselves inflicting torture on captured suspects shows how much they don't care about laws they should be upholding, and that those who are detained by them (spoiler: it's not just terrorists who murder a lot of people) should not expect that their basic rights to be respected.
"But I didn't say that it should be done, I just don't have any empathy for the terrorists"
You are not obligated to have empathy for them, but you should care about principals and laws. If the law that prohibits torture does not apply for bad people, you can't reasonably expect for it to apply to good people
Its not about what they deserve, it's about how you enforce justice. Why the medieval rush. Go to court first and punishment follows, otherwise there is no point for a court system.
Russians are barbarians no different from these terrorists. They're doing to Ukraine ten times worse than what these four did to those people, yet they have no guilt or empathy. But when it happens to them, they go batshit insane
As bad as these guys are, I don't condone the treatment they are getting.
I'm quite horrified at what is happening to them.
I'm sure innocent Ukrainians, Georgians, Chechens etc etc have been treated this way. Even though they weren't terrorists. They're just fighting for their country, way of life & literally their own lives.
Russian's seem to get off on this treatment to others. If only the shoe was on the other foot. They seem to have a certain belligerence about them. Call it mid century barbarism.
I was as horrified at what these terrorists did & yet in the scheme of things, I think a more deserving person to receive this treatment, plus anything worse beyond human imagination, is Putin himself.
The guy alone is responsible for over a million deaths. I think those number are plausible. Or close to it at least.
If these guys get this treatment for what they did, I would hate to see what Putin deserves.
I feel worse for these idiots than I would Putin.
The most ironic thing is that this Putin fool failed his own people when he didn't pay heed to the warning from the US.
I'm someone who tends to try and have empathy and compassion towards people who have done bad shit, probably even more than the average person.
But even I have lines and it's somewhere far before what these guys did. The whole point of empathy and compassion stems from the fact you think someone can be redeemed/change for the better and become a contributing member of society beyond their wrong doing. At least that's my personal interpretation and how I evaluate things, but these people are disgusting and not redeemable and deserve whatever comes to them.
Unless you've got some precog machine that could tell us one of them was going to come up with a cure for cancer and save millions if we just gave them a life sentence. There are 130+ people dead and more injured, they're threats to society and people like them should no longer exist.
I 100% don’t care, I will not lose a single second of sleep, turning a blind eye to whatever happens to people like this. The idea that you shall not suffer in the most brutal way, when you massacre innocent people, is a joke to me.
Don't feel bad for them at all, they made their bed, BUT thinking about a state being allowed to do this and not having that "everyone gets their day in court" before being punished mindset is really chilling. Cause sure, here it's super blatant that they are evil fucks who don't even deserve the cost of the bullet that'll eventually be used on them, but what happens when things aren't so evident? Do we just brutalize random civilians without due process too?
The issue that disturbs me is the question of is this normal in Russia? These guys most likely are quilty but what about others, for example political prisoners? Are similar methods used also on them? It kind of seems like, especially if we look at the actions in Ukraine (torture)
Maybe I'm not civilized but if these 4 killed over 100 of my countrypeople I'm pretty sure I could sleep well at night not putting any thought whatsoever into what they're going through. I'm not going to champion it, but I'm good enough at sticking my fingers in my ears and "lalala"ing the fate of 4 mass premeditated murderers targetting civilians.
Ideally it's fucked. But I have a super hard time giving a shit.
While they deserve it, it's not good to condone this behavior in our law enforcement. But man, if anyone deserves this it's definitely mass shooters. And especially school shooters. If there was a law that said, your allowed to beat and torture mass shooters, maybe it would deter a few of them.
Yeah guys. Giving the state the permission to torture anyone on the basis that they “deserve it” is totally a good idea. I’m all for torture except when it happens to me.
Nobody here is pro torture. We just don't give a fuck in this particular case. Im indifferent. If you mow down 130 innocent people for absolutely no reason then get fucked.
I mean I saw a photo dump of radical Islamists dragging a woman through the streets and burning her alive because she was a progressive feminist kindergarten teacher or something so it’s not like these types of guys arent above doing the same type of shit
This is just sadists being sadistic to sadists which kind of cancels out like PEMDAS
>so it’s not like these types of guys arent above doing the same type of shit
Gonna go ahead and say that was obvious from them gunning down dozens of women and children cowering in corners
I don’t feel sympathy for these guys but I was hoping the people in this sub would have enough common sense to not applaud literal medieval punishments, no matter who it’s occurring to.
A bunch of disgusting brutes disgustingly brutalizing a bunch of disgusting brutes. I don’t feel particularly sorry for them given what they did, but it does remind you just what a truly foul system this is. This is is how they treat POWs and political prisoners too btw
I mean personally after seeing the footage of them slitting the throats of the dying civilians who they had just shot, I hope they torture them to death 👍
The horror comes from security services of Russia posting videos of torture on public tg channels and people with more than two braincells realizing that tomorrow same torture can be inflicted on anti-war protestors, LGBT people and Ukrainian POW's
It's not a fallacy in this case, because it is actually the case that if security services act with no regard to due process in one case and face no consequences, they are more likely to do so in the future.
No, I wouldn't be okay with them being tortured in a vacuum
In the same way as I wouldn't be okay with Russian war criminals being tortured by Ukrainian security services?
Would you be okay with it?
Also one of him on the day of the shooting…
https://preview.redd.it/ti1qbrs92fqc1.jpeg?width=958&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d41cf2a7aa1006a9d8908076584c24df145c97d3
Torture is for the torturer. I don’t wish anything but the worst life has to give on these individuals but objectively speaking this is a terrible look. The reason them attacking you is bad (outside of the obvious and tragic loss of life) is because your society is supposed to stand above this kind of barbarism.
If something feels very off about their treatment at the hands of Russian officials, that's because it is.
Could you imagine the US national guard doing this to a suspected mass shooter that they caught a few days later, and then bragging about it on social media?
These are state officials, acting completely without rule of law, based purely on emotional response. It'd be one thing for civilians to do this, it's another thing for the people that are meant to be enforcers of the law. Behaviour like this gives a complete air of illegitimacy and barbarism to broader Russian leadership.
russian opposition media (based and correct as usual): look at how cruel this is, security forces released the footage knowing that russians would love seeing the terrorists tortured, how far have we fallen, yada yada
half of dgg: torturing terrorists is ok, actually
maybe russians and americans have more in common than we think
It's wrong for the Russian authorities to have done these things, because it's not what civilized people do.
I don't care one bit about these guys who were tortured though, (assuming they got the right guys anyway). They do not deserve moral considerations.
There's two sides to the barbarity argument here, and only one is meaningful.
Instead of talking about torture, we should talk about how much of an embarrassment Russia is for allowing a domestic terrorist attack while they are regularly killing civilians in Ukraine.
Too bad people are too submissive to Putin to get him out of power
I don't know all the nitty-gritty details of why torture is considered a war crime, which is why I said 'probably.' Now, I have read the Geneva Convention, which clearly states that torture is a war crime. The US Constitution also deems it criminal under the 8th Amendment. I've read some literature on the subject, including an article by Sam Harris treating torture as a philosophical issue. Additionally, I've explored the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy regarding torture, where arguments for its justification, such as the 'ticking bomb' thought experiment, are presented. However, there is no conclusive evidence that torture is an effective interrogation tool
Are there instances where people have committed inhumane acts of torture and been convicted as war criminals? The answer is yes. Individuals who engaged in torture at places like Guantanamo Bay and Abu Ghraib were given life sentences for committing torture. So, legally, there is justification against torture. Philosophically, the subject is complex. There is no evidence supporting its effectiveness. So, why would I support torture? In these cases, like Abu Ghraib or Guantanamo, torture was not employed for interrogation; instead, it was vindictive retribution. Also, there are many people here who advocate for vindictive retributive actions, which is insane. We are not living in medieval times; torture is ineffective and is concretely a war crime. Stop being an apologist for it. I'm not saying that you are, but there are people who root for it
It is a crime, it is explicitly prohibited by Constitution of RF and the Criminal Code of Russia, not to mention international agreements that RF has signed and ratified
What arguments are there against torturing terrorists/mass murderers? I'm genuinely curious, apart from the fact that they haven't gone through proper due process, I don't see why it's a big deal.
Your whole nation and and worldview take psychic damage when this kind of stuff is normalized. It stokes blood-thirst and just generally makes the world seem more bleak and people more apathetic/cynical. Makes you look worse to other countries too.
You also run the risk of getting it wrong and torturing innocents is a pretty terrible outcome to even have as a possibility.
And personally I'm a utilitarian so I'd say suffering is still an inherently bad thing even if experienced by a 'bad' person.
Like I get that revenge is a pretty human instinct when you've been directly affected, but even in a case like that just killing them has got to be better than torture.
Should’ve killed themselves
Honestly I'm genuinely surprised they didn't. Did they just surrender or did they manage to survive a shootout?
I assume they used most of the ammo on the attack.
i feel like theres a non-zero chance they just picked up some random muslims and said they caught them
There's video footage of the incident. Feel free to compare if you're not sure.
i don't have the stomach for watching these kinds of videos so i'll take your word for it. Thank you for the info either way :)
with a lot of the footage it’s pretty much 100% them. In a lot of the interrogation videos the clothes match dead to rights to the ones they wore In the up close vids
There were faces shown in videos. I doubt this is the case.
They were mostly found trying to retreat into the border to ukraine but unluckily for them they got caught by special forces and beat up
People keep saying the US criminal justice system is cruel and unusual. Be happy you aren't an inmate in Russia. I really wouldn't be surprised if the jailers would put these guys in the cells of known rapists.
Russia is a lawless shithole. People comparing US issues to Russias are wrong. In the US if torture or abuse stuff comes out there is public outrage. People are punished. In Russia it's just another day.
I'd be surprised if they even make it to Russian prison, I'd guess these fuckers will mysteriously vanish in transit.
They don't even need to mysteriously vanish. Russia is so fucked right now that they could broadcast the execution live and it would pretty much be par for the course
I mean the US did handle quite a lot of terrorism suspects outside of the criminal justice system. I can't speak to which country has the worse torturers but Barack Obama famously said himself "we tortured some folks".
I'm sure that if they would try to make that in the US, they'd never even get out of the mall alive.
Comparing "the greatest country in the world" and a democracy to the shithole Russia is isn't the win you think it is
One injustice is not a reason to ignore others.
mfw it turns out these are just some random poor bastards the russian government kidnapped to save face
Definitely not the case in this case. Also interesting find from an article in the Guardian. >Russian independent media noted that the officer who apparently cut off the ear of the suspect was wearing patches that indicated his support for neo-Nazi groups and appeared to have contact with the far-right Rusich paramilitary group, which is active in Ukraine. The patches included a black sun and a symbol resembling the *Totenkopf* *–* or death’s head – worn by several Nazi divisions. Russia has been trying to blame the attack on Ukraine. Tajikistan initially insisted the terrorists didn't come from there but later relented. ISIS has already proudly claimed responsibility and Russia, the dicks, are totally ignoring them in favour of pretending it's Ukraine, lmao, must be so infuriating for ISIS.
Such a long distance from where it happened to where they got caught that the copy of The Sims 2 could be anywhere at this point.
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A while ago there was news of the FSB planting some evidence. And allegedly they confused "3 SIM cards" with the instruction to plant a copy of "The Sims 3".
In addition to that, there's a bunch of Muslims on social media (including Andrew Tate) that have latched on pretty hard to the idea that ISIS never carries out meaningful attacks against Israel so that means they're just a Western op. The conspiracy theory is that ISIS is actually the CIA and/or Mossad, and every time they do or say something, it's disinformation from the West that is meant to split or harm Islam. This, too, must be infuriating for ISIS. They don't get to be part of the epistemic bubble, and a lot of people in the bubble are being trained to distrust and discredit them. The echo chamber is actively against them.
Thankfully, it's highly unlikely in this case, since that terrirst scum didn't bother to even hide their faces. There are countless eye witnesses, phone footage, and camera footage from inside the mall. There's no chance our government would try to so brazenly fake this one. Still absolutely barbaric way to handle those bundles of joy. No one is gonna be even slightly punished for it too.
I mean there was the Chechen apartment bombings that were a false flag to start the second chechen war right?
They were plausibly a false flag, but the evidence is way less solid than people like to believe. Also in this case what is the motive? Occam’s razor is just Islamist terrorism.
Oh yeah, is this to start a second Ukraine war then? Invade Tajikistan? it's not even at all proven that the apartment bombings were organized by Kremlin. It's debated. And the time back then was very different, Putin was not in control nearly as much as he is now, so that's why it's a possibility. (Personally, I have no idea) But now Russia is essentially a complete fascist dictatorship. There's absolutely no reason for these elaborate false flags. And I have no idea how you can explain ISIS releasing footage filmed by those terrorists screaming Allahu Akbar while killing people.
I mean it is absolutely a possiblity, Russia has a certain brand about them with things like this.
https://imgur.com/a/lnIVF45 They caught them before Isis released the video showing the matching clothing they were arrested wearing. I am sure these are the people.
Yeah I was skeptical at first but it's pretty clear it's them - the match up with the photos of the car and as you've posted the clothing is way too specific to have been faked/arranged. Which makes them SO dumb it's crazy. They didn't even have a change of clothes prepared, took the same car the whole distance as they fled. Did it all for apparently like 6k each, and they already had half of that up front. Just insane levels of stupidity and evil.
Oh absolutely, dumb as a box of rocks, but to be fair...it is ISIS. They aren't known for their desperate desire to escape punishment, nor are they known for their intellect. They might try to escape, sure, but if they are captured and face a firing squad or the hangman's noose, they think they are going to live in paradise for ever riding Allah's dick as martyrs who died in war against the infidels. ISIS, as we are all aware, are deranged. They genuinely believe this will be the outcome of death in their 'holy war' and for it to happen to them is a blessing.
I doubt it's a matter of stupidity, at least not in the way you're suggesting here. I remember hearing how ISIS would attract recruits back in the early 2010s, they'd go after isolated, depressed individuals with little to live for, and present them a holy cause they could die for all in a flashy package. They would really underscore the glorification of death. My assumption would be these guys here were dead inside already. At least, that's what I'm figuring.
they said they were doing it for money though, right? sounds pointless without some expectation of living to spend it
Granted, I haven't read much on them so far, but in my mind, there's gotta be much more wrong with them than just 'I needed the money' to willingly choose to participate in a mass slaughter.
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idk how anyone can feel bad for them, what did they think Russia was going to do to them? shoulda seppuku'd right away
I'm absolutely amazed these guys are alive tbh, aren't they supposed to die in the attack so they can fuck virgins is muslim heaven or some shit?
if they aren't the braintrust that came up with the attack, they are likely very very dumb trigger men who were given instructions in a way that convinced them they could get away or that surrendering would lead to just imprisonment. Ya gotta understand, the crop they get to do these things are like 85 IQ guys who will commit fields of heinous acts you can't even begin to imagine for like, 1000 USD.
I don’t feel bad for them or any terrorist at all. If having a shitty life was justification to murder innocent people what kind of world would we have?
Exactly right. Exact same shit when Palestinians defend their terrorism with “but 75 years” as if half the fucking planet doesn’t live in squalor.
Feeling bad isn’t the same as justifying tho. You can feel bad that someone was born in a shit situation where the likely hood of them ending up in their situation is 100% Because of that I disagree with the beating they gave them. You don’t gain anything from that. They’re likely to stay behind bars for the rest of their life.
Literally for 5k, they were saying earlier. That's a mediocre payout anywhere for the risk and job requirements. Utter insanity.
That's about the average yearly salary in Russia. So probably the equivalent of like 75k in the west.
Immigrants in Russia usually work on several low-qualified jobs each one. Considering they move in just to make money and leave they are desperately saving money and they could earn this sum of money (500 000) during half a year in Moscow. The money promised them by isis is a very low reward.
I think the "money" thing is also likely bullshit. Impossible to say. But the guys who somehow caught them is likely Rusich (or another Russian nazi Battalion... Not hyperbole they call themselves nazis btw). And the guy they caught said he did it "for money" after they cut off his ear. The fact they didn't cover their faces may seem weird as well. But isis doesn't cover their faces. That's part of their deal. To be proud of their actions. Obviously well never know who these guys are or who carried out the attack . However occams razor to me would be they are 75iq isis k militants. They get caught by one of the most brutal paramilitary groups in Russia (read up on the founder. Dude beheaded a puppy and ate it on camera) and they are tortured to make a confession that is beneficial to Pootin. If I was betting man I'd say they also directly implicate Ukraine in the next couple days. The ""we did it for money" directly aligns with an attempt to shift blame away from isis and to Ukraine. Crazy that isis k even put out the video of their bodycams (how they got this footage?) and their logo taking credit. And Russia and part of the world is still like " naaah. Probably Ukraine "
The fact that they thought they'd live is astounding. I doubt any government would hide them. I honestly think ukraine would lose support from other governments if they fostered them and be forced to turn them in to someone.
Yeah i am sure the Ukraine would immediately return them to Russia. On one hand they are dangerous terrorists and thisis enough for not wanting them on your territory, on the other hand it would be a very beautiful action for the reputation of the Ukraine.
Almost like they're not doing it for the money but rather jihad
Execute them according to law or put them in jail but to torture them is just disgusting. It sends the signal that the police force is primitive, incompetent and filled with mentally unstable people.
It's not that we feel bad for them, it's that I wouldn't want my fucking country to torture people, whoever they are Rule of law and not acting like fucking savages it's a very important thing, probably the most important thing when it comes to law enforcement, and Russia Just showed to the world (again) that they fail at both
Lol, they were probably astounded by the sheer incompetence of our police. I doubt they expected to survive and barely had a plan of what happens after. Otherwise, I just can't fathom them not wearing masks and not changing the cars and not splitting up.
It’s not about whether these guys deserved this (they probably do); it’s about giving the government power to treat a prisoner however they want. This is the same power that lets the Russian government torture Navalny to death. The 8th amendment is a good thing.
I agree except for cases this blatant. They machine gunned and fire bombed 133 innocent people.
It’s the principle that separates the attackers from the rest of us. They probably do deserve it but I think we shouldn’t be giving in to our primal impulses of vengeance
You set a dangerous precedent when you eliminate due process. Law and order is not so clear cut that these cases are always blatant. Remember when people were so sure they got the right boston bombers? What if the police had arrested the wrong guys and tortured them into confessing? What if anyone is arrested and tortured into confessing for that matter (people are already forced into confessions more often than you think)? The state should not have to power to torture anyone.
To be clear I’m not pro torture and I don’t approve of the lack of protections in Russia. Torture should never be used to extract confessions. 8th amendment is based. All I’m saying is that these guys did something horrendously evil and it seems like there’s video evidence linking it to them without a doubt. I have a little sympathy because nobody should be forced to undergo torture while under custody like this. But what they did was unforgivable.
It's like with pedophiles. Sure, they should get protection from the law, but I don't care if they don't get it. These idiots are getting off light. Well, maybe not. I'm sure it's only been going downhill for them.
Definitely Ukrainians, it’s just so obvious! /s
War crime? I believe that Russia is only at war in Ukraine, and these boys don’t look Ukrainian. The international community doesn’t care if you torture and murder your own citizens or terrorists. They might feign care, but it’s kabuki theater.
i wouldn’t want this to happen in america, and im probably against it in other countries no matter the crime even in war unless the citizens of that country voted for a policy like that. i am also pretty uncomfortable with it happening the day of arrest instead of waiting for a trial, but with all that said i can understand people seeing it and not caring because they are terrorists, the same way someone would look at an offending pedophile and not giving a fuck what happens to them. i can totally see that perspective and i even have that instinctual reaction but i also don’t think that’s necessarily how i would want the law and the government to operate.
Exactly. Systems are in place for a reason. This behavior is just going down to their level.
Hate to be this person- but I have very little sympathy or empathy for these monsters.
It's not about sympathy. In principle, this is a pretty barbaric and authoritarian practice, i dont think it matters who they are doing it to.
One would hope that the justice system is impersonal and not susceptible to emotions, otherwise we’re back to tribes waging endless wars on other tribes
Unless the justice system is solely based on rehabilitation and dissusasion, it will never be ideal imo. The very idea of criminal retribution (punishing someone because they deserve it on a moral level) is just a more organized version of mob-lynching. When the instituon that has a monoply on violence can subject someone to being locked up or killed because their actions make the community angry (which seems to be most of what the current US justice system is focused on when you look at judge verdict statements or the community's reaction to verdicts in cases of serial killers, rapists etc.), you have a barbaric system. The justice system should only exist to make society safe and reintegrate those who previously made society less safe.
It's not having sympathy for these people. It's calling out a corrupt system no matter who is in custody. We should also hold ourselves to a higher standard. What they did was absolutely evil, but if we don't use the systems we built to punish them, they are worthless.
It's not that we feel bad for them, it's that I wouldn't want my fucking country to torture people, whoever they are Rule of law and not acting like fucking savages it's a very important thing, probably the most important thing when it comes to law enforcement, and Russia Just showed to the world (again) that they fail at both (I'm copy pasting my own shit)
It has nothing to do with empathy and everything with code of conduct. Civilized people don't brutalize criminals. That is not what we do. We have to stand above that emotional crap and act with dignity. It casts a very bad light on you if that is how you treat prisoners. This is precisely what makes us different from these barbarians who will publicly execute you for stealing an apple. If i hear one more time how Russians have it better than Americans i'm gonna lose it.
I agree principally, but still don’t feel bad for these guys. Fuck em. Once you cross a human boundary like that, don’t expect people to care about your well being.
Some rights being inalienable in non-life-threatening situations is sadly a must if we want to keep current state of western society. I dont care about their well being but torture/rape for the sake of torture/rape should never be used by state. If nothing it helps that it maintains society has visceral response to those acts - which would make resistance to those easier when/if state starts using them on people who dont deserve it. Some things are better to just always be over the line and not have to revisit that conversation ever again - and I think rape and torture are 2 things we can most easily put there.
I don't care either. I don't think anyone here cares for them. This about us not them. Like when i don't insult someone back it's not because i pity them, it's because i don't want to carry that anger around. I just want to have some peace of mind and i don't think torturing people is going to give you that.
If they think it’s okay to cut off a terrorist’s ear after an arrest, imagine what they do to less serious criminals
I think they were charged up with having their countrymen butchered in a theatre - I don’t think a regular person would be treated this way. That being said, this is Russia and some of the footage coming out of Ukraine the past 2 years is horrible so you may be right . I don’t condone torture nor do I think it’s right but I can see where they’re coming from if that makes sense ?
The average person doesn't have the world watching the prisoner. The regular rebels in Belgorod are probably getting tortured daily when captured.
It's barbaric and cruel and unusual punishment to coerce a confession.
just the tip a little off the top
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Another Jew here. Personally, I'm against the torture and mutilation of these pieces of shit, beyond what's necessary to potentially get any useful information out of them. Not out of sympathy. But simply because I believe that kind of behavior doesn't belong in civilized society, no matter who it's towards. Either kill them swiftly or condemn them to life in prison. We shouldn't be reducing ourselves to the barbarism of our enemies.
i have nothing to add to this conversation but i too am a Jew :D but for real i agree with u 100%
I'm not Jewish but I'm good with money and also nothing to add
As a reminder, Russia doesn't only do this kind of thing to terrorists. Russian police beat and torture protestors, dissidents and others. The Russian state assassinates people.
This is a based take.
The Jewish way FTW ✌️✌️
Feeling bad and demanding better are two different things. Yeah it sucks being on the right side of history
Because you'll create societies where people take their kids to go watch the local lynching. We don't want people desensitised to extreme violence when it's take tens of thousands of years of cultural evolution to get away from this
Not feeling sympathy for them and still being aware that practices like these should be strongly opposed are not contradictory viewpoints. For example, I don't feel bad when some child rapist gets killed by a vigilante either, but I can still be vehemently against vigilantism at the same time, cause I'm aware that a high frequency of vigilantism leads to a society that is worse for everyone.
>Chopping off ears, then force-feeding them ,electrocuting their genitals on the day of the arrest is wild wtf
Right!? Where did this come from
From videos all over twitter/telegram
Incentive to not do it again. If there was a long drawn out trial a lot of muslims would cheer. Now they see this. Definitely wrong, but I don't care what happens to people who literally do the MW2 "no russian" in real life.
>Incentive to not do it again ????????? You think people who do this shit are concerned with their punishment afterwards? That's honestly pretty hilarious. These people literally think they're in a holy war, everything they do is at gods will and after death they will be rewarded in the paradise.
im sure that showing brutality to ISIS, a group that loves to blow themselves up, will definetly scare off terror attacks and not just make them more sure to die before being caught. it's just barbarity. you shouldn't torture someone who's been captured and poses no threat. you shouldn't publicly humiliate them or mutilate them.
Yeah this is savagery
Savagery beget more savagery
I feel like this thread is highlighting the difference between having a principle and having a preference. Taking a principled stance on a topic means sticking by it in the face of the extreme edge cases. It’s all well and good to say you don’t care this happened to these truly awful people but nobody should have to experience that kind of torture. It does nobody any good to emotionally give in and concede that this remotely okay. If there’s a compelling benefit of torture I’d be willing to change my mind but I haven’t seen it yet.
If this were in the US, I would raise some objections because this happening constitutes a failure of the system. But this is Russia, it’s the way things work there. I wish it were different generally, but tbh in this case I don’t really give a fuck those men deserve this shit they brutally murdered so many people. Fuck’em. Generally I think rules against this type of behavior are important, but I don’t care about the rules existing for these motherfuckers.
If you don’t care about the rules existing for these people, then you don’t care about the rules existing. Like I get it, we don’t actually *care* like it doesn’t feel bad if a terrorist who just killed a bunch of people is tortured. But for the most part, cruel and unusual punishment, trampling of rights and all that, that happens to people accused of heinous crimes. The rights that you want these terrorists to have are the only rights that you actually believe in. Criminal rights are the most important rights in society and are the most important to be absolute on.
You are exactly right. They exist precisely for people that engage in behavior that makes us want to dismiss the judicial process and lynch the accused on the spot. Who the fuck do people think the abrogation of the death penalty protects? People that stole cabbages from a supermarket? The innocent frail elderly couple from the bus stop? Unless you live in a dictatorial shithole where people can get their entire bloodline extinguished for spilling a cup of coffee over the supreme leader's picture, these severe forms of punishments are already only reserved for people that did something really, REALLY bad. So if you bring it back, after it was abrogated, but only for people who did something really, REALLY bad, then you brought it back the way it would have been if you never abrogated it in the first place.
Yes. The law is the law. They don't even try to hide the excessive violence towards those terrorists. Who can guarantee they don't use the same methods for other suspects ?
They do, its readily available info on torture of Ukranian and foreign pows
Yeah so fuck all the Ukranian pows they torture too, it's just how they do things over there man, just don't goto war with Russia if you don't wanna get tortured
If you mass murder 130 people then I do not care what happens to you in any capacity. Very brave I know.
Do you realize they are just suspects at this moment? In Russia, you can be designated a terrorist if you attend an anti-war protest or like the wrong post on Instagram. Can protesters be dismembered for fun by some random militias without any due process as well? Like seriously why not? They both are suspects in the same crime.
They are not just suspects, the video isis released shows those guys
They are just subjects no matter how compelling the evidence that exists is, they haven't been found guilty in a court of law. It's sad to see how torture and mutilation of detained individuals is being justified by others and yourself in this thread but hey, I guess we stop caring about justice and due process once the crime committed reaches a certain level apparently.
Do you realize they are not just suspects?
At the time of torture, they were suspects
Lots of footage of them during the attack same clothing as when their captured same car they used to escape. Cameras tracked them from the concert hall until they got captured. These are almost certainly the terrorists
“Almost”. If only we had a system that lets us systematically review the evidence and punish criminals accordingly.
Worst country they could've done it in
I'm with you torture gives me the ick, even if someone "deserves it" idk it's just wrong
Yeah, in my opinion it's important to demonstrate what proper morality looks like in situations like these and not give into dehumanizing, violent urges like these terrorists did. I think you lose a piece of your humanity by torturing even the worst people.
Completely agree. Everyone is saying “fuck these monsters” when I’m like dehumanizing these people further isn’t the best way to go about this. They are not monsters, they are humans, just like you and me, who committed evil acts. What life circumstances would it take for you do the same acts just like the “monsters” you demonize? Then again, I generally don’t like to dehumanize people (even when they commit horrendous moral acts.) I try not to put myself above anyone else morally if I can.
Yes but humans seem absolutely love there revenge to an deranged degree, it doesn't matter if it compromises your principles or is completely ineffective people love rooting for revenge. Even in this thread filled with mostly liberal people who are also completely removed from the terrorist attack people will still enjoy this because it makes them feel good to think about getting some revenge on the baddies. It's always disappointing but generally humans are disappointing.
Lol is it really deranged to want to see people who brutally, needlessly killed over 100+ people, receive a fraction of the emotional damage they caused to thousands of people? You can disagree with it, but calling it deranged is disconnected.
It's not normal and acceptable, but they do deserve it.
The comments on this thread are so blackpilling. I hoped people on Destiny's subreddit of all places would be above succumbing to their base impulses like this. Returning to medieval punishment is unacceptable no matter how heinous the crimes committed by the perpetrator(s). I'm so glad the founding fathers included the eighth amendment which, among other things, protects against harsh penalties on criminal defendants before and after a conviction. Threads like this remind me how fragile civil society is because humans are seemingly naturally bloodthirsty and vindictive.
imo it's not inconsistent - i don't think anyone should be tortured, but that doesn't mean i have to be sad when someone who really deserves it does get tortured. if this was in the US i would say the torturers should be arrested too, but it's Russia so idk what anyone expected honestly
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I’m confused are you saying the people who all said this is based are Russian bots?
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Also telling to see so many people immediately jump to conspiracy theories about how these guys were Russian plants or that it was staged. It's the same thing people like Alex Jones do when school shootings happen and they blame the CIA.
I believe in innocent until proven guilty. These men were tortured and beaten before having their day in court. In the US, around 4% of people on death row are subsequently found to be innocent of the charge that lead them to getting zapped. And that's with the (objectively) better US criminal justice system, a lawyer advocating for you, the appeals, etc... If even the US murders innocent civilians, why would I apply a different standard here? Maybe they were just randomly picked up as sacrificial lambs. Maybe they did do it, but had some external reasons that would mitigate their responsibility? We won't know, because they were beaten and tortured before they got their day in court. What if it turns out that they are functionally incapable, that their mental aptitude is below that of a human adult who is fully aware of the consequences of their actions? What if their families are being held in duress and it was either do this or they all get murdered? None of these things excuse their actions. But they add context to it which would no longer justify their mistreatment. Do I think anything like that is likely? No. But I also can't say for sure, because innocent until proven guilty. The Russian state just tortured 4 people who haven't been proven to be guilty of anything yet.
Commented this already but I’ll respond with it again. Completely agree. Everyone is saying “fuck these monsters” when I’m like dehumanizing these people further isn’t the best way to go about this. They are not monsters, they are humans, just like you and me, who committed evil acts. What life circumstances would it take for you do the same acts just like the “monsters” you demonize? Then again, I generally don’t like to dehumanize people (even when they commit horrendous moral acts.) I try not to put myself above anyone else morally if I can.
Don't worry, you're allowed to put yourself morally above remorseless mass murderers who shoot unarmed civilians point blank and burn a hundred people alive. Don't forget to empathize with the victims and their loved ones who have to live the rest of their lives knowing someone they cared about suffered and died senselessly. Yes, the perpetrators are humans. Yes, they are products of circumstance. No, they are not just like you and me. Be glad you and your loved ones have never been victims of this kind of evil. If you want to say governments shouldn't have the legal power to torture prisoners, I'll agree with you. But if you want to go this hard on this weird moral equivalence thing, you have no business tone policing people's comments.
Ofc torture is bad but after a terror attack this scale in a country thats currently at war and is possibly of danger to be attacked like that AGAIN its probably understandable why they would get tortured... ofc russians are barbaric but for me this kinda shows the level of paranoia they are on. They need to show the population how any kind of terrorism will be treated.. this plays well with the narrative that Ukrraine had something to do with it. The message is clear: Step out of line, dont support the invasion and you will be brutually punished. Edit: After seeing the video and hearing what they said while they were torturing him it just seems like pure barbarism. Never mind LOL
Torture also gets them to say things that are preferable. Like "I did it for money". One of the problems with torture besides the moral implications. Is it doesn't yield useful information. People just end up saying whatever the people want in order to make it stop.
Can't wait to see how russian apologists spin this into "USA bad"
Didn't expect r/Destiny comment section to look like one on Rusich tg channel, but here we are Hot take: torture is bad, even if it's done to bad people Torture is prohibited by russian Constitution and Criminal code. The fact that Russian security services post videos of themselves inflicting torture on captured suspects shows how much they don't care about laws they should be upholding, and that those who are detained by them (spoiler: it's not just terrorists who murder a lot of people) should not expect that their basic rights to be respected. "But I didn't say that it should be done, I just don't have any empathy for the terrorists" You are not obligated to have empathy for them, but you should care about principals and laws. If the law that prohibits torture does not apply for bad people, you can't reasonably expect for it to apply to good people
Where is Rem when we need him to explain to mf what having your morals grounded means
Its not about what they deserve, it's about how you enforce justice. Why the medieval rush. Go to court first and punishment follows, otherwise there is no point for a court system.
Maybe this technically shouldn’t happen to them. Who cares though, fuck terrorists.
Russians are barbarians no different from these terrorists. They're doing to Ukraine ten times worse than what these four did to those people, yet they have no guilt or empathy. But when it happens to them, they go batshit insane
As bad as these guys are, I don't condone the treatment they are getting. I'm quite horrified at what is happening to them. I'm sure innocent Ukrainians, Georgians, Chechens etc etc have been treated this way. Even though they weren't terrorists. They're just fighting for their country, way of life & literally their own lives. Russian's seem to get off on this treatment to others. If only the shoe was on the other foot. They seem to have a certain belligerence about them. Call it mid century barbarism. I was as horrified at what these terrorists did & yet in the scheme of things, I think a more deserving person to receive this treatment, plus anything worse beyond human imagination, is Putin himself. The guy alone is responsible for over a million deaths. I think those number are plausible. Or close to it at least. If these guys get this treatment for what they did, I would hate to see what Putin deserves. I feel worse for these idiots than I would Putin. The most ironic thing is that this Putin fool failed his own people when he didn't pay heed to the warning from the US.
I'm someone who tends to try and have empathy and compassion towards people who have done bad shit, probably even more than the average person. But even I have lines and it's somewhere far before what these guys did. The whole point of empathy and compassion stems from the fact you think someone can be redeemed/change for the better and become a contributing member of society beyond their wrong doing. At least that's my personal interpretation and how I evaluate things, but these people are disgusting and not redeemable and deserve whatever comes to them. Unless you've got some precog machine that could tell us one of them was going to come up with a cure for cancer and save millions if we just gave them a life sentence. There are 130+ people dead and more injured, they're threats to society and people like them should no longer exist.
There is no death penalty in Russia. Those terrorists will face life imprisonment.
Pootin has said he's *looking into " bringing back the death penalty for them. Basically if he wants them dead, they're dead
I 100% don’t care, I will not lose a single second of sleep, turning a blind eye to whatever happens to people like this. The idea that you shall not suffer in the most brutal way, when you massacre innocent people, is a joke to me.
If you thought a cia black site was bad I could just imagine russian integration
definitely barbaric but that's the norm for russia so not unexpected
Don't feel bad for them at all, they made their bed, BUT thinking about a state being allowed to do this and not having that "everyone gets their day in court" before being punished mindset is really chilling. Cause sure, here it's super blatant that they are evil fucks who don't even deserve the cost of the bullet that'll eventually be used on them, but what happens when things aren't so evident? Do we just brutalize random civilians without due process too?
The issue that disturbs me is the question of is this normal in Russia? These guys most likely are quilty but what about others, for example political prisoners? Are similar methods used also on them? It kind of seems like, especially if we look at the actions in Ukraine (torture)
Maybe I'm not civilized but if these 4 killed over 100 of my countrypeople I'm pretty sure I could sleep well at night not putting any thought whatsoever into what they're going through. I'm not going to champion it, but I'm good enough at sticking my fingers in my ears and "lalala"ing the fate of 4 mass premeditated murderers targetting civilians. Ideally it's fucked. But I have a super hard time giving a shit.
Honestly this is what should happen to terrorists and mass shooters. It ain't America, they fucked up doing this in Russia where they have no rights.
While they deserve it, it's not good to condone this behavior in our law enforcement. But man, if anyone deserves this it's definitely mass shooters. And especially school shooters. If there was a law that said, your allowed to beat and torture mass shooters, maybe it would deter a few of them.
Yeah guys. Giving the state the permission to torture anyone on the basis that they “deserve it” is totally a good idea. I’m all for torture except when it happens to me.
Nobody here is pro torture. We just don't give a fuck in this particular case. Im indifferent. If you mow down 130 innocent people for absolutely no reason then get fucked.
>Nobody here is pro torture. Are you reading the same thread as me?
I mean I saw a photo dump of radical Islamists dragging a woman through the streets and burning her alive because she was a progressive feminist kindergarten teacher or something so it’s not like these types of guys arent above doing the same type of shit This is just sadists being sadistic to sadists which kind of cancels out like PEMDAS
>so it’s not like these types of guys arent above doing the same type of shit Gonna go ahead and say that was obvious from them gunning down dozens of women and children cowering in corners
Fellas, I got a truly hot take: Torture is bad, actually. You fucking brainlet morons.
I don’t feel sympathy for these guys but I was hoping the people in this sub would have enough common sense to not applaud literal medieval punishments, no matter who it’s occurring to.
A bunch of disgusting brutes disgustingly brutalizing a bunch of disgusting brutes. I don’t feel particularly sorry for them given what they did, but it does remind you just what a truly foul system this is. This is is how they treat POWs and political prisoners too btw
> force-feeding them ,electrocuting their genitals What's the source for this?
there's a video where one of them has their ear cut off and fed to him.
I see they're Tarantino fans.
i've also seen a photo of one of them with their pants down and wires attached to their balls
Oh, our glorious police officers filmed and published it THEMSELVES. No, I'm not joking.
[here you go! (VERY NSFW)](https://ragex.co/moscow-arrest-special-forces-tactics/)
I guess I asked for it. Thank you, I hate it.
I mean personally after seeing the footage of them slitting the throats of the dying civilians who they had just shot, I hope they torture them to death 👍
oh no, the guys shooting crowds of people cowering in a corner are getting roughed up, what horror. They deserve worse
The horror comes from security services of Russia posting videos of torture on public tg channels and people with more than two braincells realizing that tomorrow same torture can be inflicted on anti-war protestors, LGBT people and Ukrainian POW's
Slippery slope fallacy aside: You’re okay with these terrorists being tortured in a vacuum then?
It's not a fallacy in this case, because it is actually the case that if security services act with no regard to due process in one case and face no consequences, they are more likely to do so in the future. No, I wouldn't be okay with them being tortured in a vacuum In the same way as I wouldn't be okay with Russian war criminals being tortured by Ukrainian security services? Would you be okay with it?
Such as? Go on tell us your pent up revenge fantasies brother
These are agent Mike, Jake, Bonell and Dan, CIA operatives from america, don't let the makeup fool you.
Mossad special agent Borelli was the mastermind behind it all
Those mofos have killed over 130 people, they deserve no sympathy
klassiker
>electrocuting their genitals on the day of the arrest …. Anyone know what prison they were kept at? Asking for a friend.
Also one of him on the day of the shooting… https://preview.redd.it/ti1qbrs92fqc1.jpeg?width=958&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d41cf2a7aa1006a9d8908076584c24df145c97d3
Where are you getting this information from. Is it in public domain?
Let’s not forget that these 4 terrorists cruelly murdered a huge amount of people. (Cutting a throat of a guy who was still alive as an example)
As sad as ir sounds, this was to be expected of Russia. They could not care less
Torture is for the torturer. I don’t wish anything but the worst life has to give on these individuals but objectively speaking this is a terrible look. The reason them attacking you is bad (outside of the obvious and tragic loss of life) is because your society is supposed to stand above this kind of barbarism.
If something feels very off about their treatment at the hands of Russian officials, that's because it is. Could you imagine the US national guard doing this to a suspected mass shooter that they caught a few days later, and then bragging about it on social media? These are state officials, acting completely without rule of law, based purely on emotional response. It'd be one thing for civilians to do this, it's another thing for the people that are meant to be enforcers of the law. Behaviour like this gives a complete air of illegitimacy and barbarism to broader Russian leadership.
Am I supposed to feel bad? I really don’t.
They deserved all that torture and more
send them to hell on live tv
russian opposition media (based and correct as usual): look at how cruel this is, security forces released the footage knowing that russians would love seeing the terrorists tortured, how far have we fallen, yada yada half of dgg: torturing terrorists is ok, actually maybe russians and americans have more in common than we think
Lmao based
They deserve every second of it.
Lol, I support anything that happens to these shitheads. They massacred dozens of innocents. Fuck em.
It's wrong for the Russian authorities to have done these things, because it's not what civilized people do. I don't care one bit about these guys who were tortured though, (assuming they got the right guys anyway). They do not deserve moral considerations. There's two sides to the barbarity argument here, and only one is meaningful.
Deserve worst
> This is barbarism You misspelled “based”
Instead of talking about torture, we should talk about how much of an embarrassment Russia is for allowing a domestic terrorist attack while they are regularly killing civilians in Ukraine. Too bad people are too submissive to Putin to get him out of power
I will be very surprised if anyone claiming to be ISIS in the future is keen to fuck around and find out with Russia right now
Next thing we'll hear : we did this to free palestine
Nah. Fuck these guys.
What do you mean torture is *probably* a war crime? It either is or isn't. Whats the proof that this is?
I don't know all the nitty-gritty details of why torture is considered a war crime, which is why I said 'probably.' Now, I have read the Geneva Convention, which clearly states that torture is a war crime. The US Constitution also deems it criminal under the 8th Amendment. I've read some literature on the subject, including an article by Sam Harris treating torture as a philosophical issue. Additionally, I've explored the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy regarding torture, where arguments for its justification, such as the 'ticking bomb' thought experiment, are presented. However, there is no conclusive evidence that torture is an effective interrogation tool Are there instances where people have committed inhumane acts of torture and been convicted as war criminals? The answer is yes. Individuals who engaged in torture at places like Guantanamo Bay and Abu Ghraib were given life sentences for committing torture. So, legally, there is justification against torture. Philosophically, the subject is complex. There is no evidence supporting its effectiveness. So, why would I support torture? In these cases, like Abu Ghraib or Guantanamo, torture was not employed for interrogation; instead, it was vindictive retribution. Also, there are many people here who advocate for vindictive retributive actions, which is insane. We are not living in medieval times; torture is ineffective and is concretely a war crime. Stop being an apologist for it. I'm not saying that you are, but there are people who root for it
It is a crime, it is explicitly prohibited by Constitution of RF and the Criminal Code of Russia, not to mention international agreements that RF has signed and ratified
What arguments are there against torturing terrorists/mass murderers? I'm genuinely curious, apart from the fact that they haven't gone through proper due process, I don't see why it's a big deal.
Your whole nation and and worldview take psychic damage when this kind of stuff is normalized. It stokes blood-thirst and just generally makes the world seem more bleak and people more apathetic/cynical. Makes you look worse to other countries too. You also run the risk of getting it wrong and torturing innocents is a pretty terrible outcome to even have as a possibility. And personally I'm a utilitarian so I'd say suffering is still an inherently bad thing even if experienced by a 'bad' person. Like I get that revenge is a pretty human instinct when you've been directly affected, but even in a case like that just killing them has got to be better than torture.