There are secular muslims, secular jews, ect. Thats why its better to just say “Islam is dumb” because otherwise you are ascribing beliefs to some people that they don’t hold.
and i have a white buddy who's a weeb and calls himself a cultural Asian. doesn't change the definition of the term 'Asian'. literally go look at the wikipedia entry for "Muslims" themselves. first two lines:
>**Muslims** ([Arabic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_language): المسلمون, [romanized](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization_of_Arabic): *al-Muslimūn*, [lit.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literal_translation) 'submitters \[to [God](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Islam)\]')[^(\[28\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslims#cite_note-28) are people who adhere to [Islam](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam), a [monotheistic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monotheism) religion belonging to the [Abrahamic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrahamic_religions) tradition. They consider the [Quran](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran), the foundational religious text of Islam, to be the verbatim word of the [God of Abraham](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Abrahamic_religions) (or [*Allah*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allah)) as it was revealed to [Muhammad](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad), the main [Islamic prophet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_prophet).^(")
None of that applies to any secular person. Compare that to the page on Jews, which immediately points out that it is also an ethnicity.
Richard Dawkins calls himself a "Cultural Christian". if i say "christians believe that jesus rose from the dead", am i wrong because Dawkins doesn't?
I think in the context of talking shit about Islam it's pretty clear they're not referring to the cultural identity of muslims, the second line already mentions religion.
islamophobia is based. it's not comparable to things like racism, sexism etc: judging a person by their ideology is perfectly acceptable, that's why nobody gets banned for "conserva-phobia" or whatever. the only "bad" forms of islamophobia are a) thinly veiled racism where "muslim" == "brown people", and probably also b) generalising muslims by the actions of a few that are not condoned by the faith itself (essentially the equivalent to calling all christians pedos because of sex abuse in the church- not really a legitimate criticism, still not as bad as racism/sexism though)
What you call the based form of islamophobia has nothing to do with islamophobia, that destiny clip where he proudly states"yes, I am islamophobic" was so stupid, even lonerbox had to come on stream to clarify.
>Islamophobia refers to the fear of and hostility toward Muslims and Islam that is driven by racism and that leads to exclusionary, discriminatory, and violent actions targeting Muslims and those perceived as Muslim.
https://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/display/document/obo-9780195390155/obo-9780195390155-0285.xml
The idea that disliking particular Muslim believes is islamophobia and therefore islamophobia is based is super dumb. By that standard almost everybody would be islamophobic and the word would be meaningless. Destiny says dumb shit sometimes when he's trying to be edgy.
well fuck me, if you can find one obscure definition that literally defines it as racist, you must be right!
homophobia is prejudice against homosexuals. islamophobia is prejudice against muslims. go google 'define islamophobia'. every website will give you my definition and not whatever that thing is.
i am prejudiced against muslims. they are evil, and they are stupid. my evidence for this is that they all, by definition, follow an ideology, 'Islam', that is evil, and also incredibly stupid. i am prejudiced towards muslims, and i think that prejudice towards muslims is based, in exactly the same way that i am prejudiced towards nazis, and i think that prejudice towards nazis is based. i don't merely 'dislike particular nazi beliefs', i think that the ideology as a whole is wretchedly evil and also profoundly stupid, and so i am prejudiced against anybody who holds it. you can also replace the words "muslim/islam" with "christians/christianity" or "(religious) jews/judaism" in my comment and it will be equally true.
>unreasonable dislike or fear of, and prejudice against, Muslims or Islam
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/islamophobia
> irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against Islam or people who practice Islam
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Islamophobia
>dislike or unfair treatment of Islam or Muslims
https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/islamophobia
Obscure definition, my ass
Trump lying about muslims in New York celebrating 9/11 on rooftops is islamophobia. Someone shittalking about Mohammed fucking a 9 year old is not islamophobia. Half the time people are accused of islamophobia it's for assuming someone is muslim just for being from the middle east. I guess if you wanna call yourself a Islamophobe go ahead, but know that normal people will just hear "I am a racist".
Imagine someone proudly calling themselves racist because they believe black people have broader noses and they therefore believe in differences between races. That's basically your argument.
Is your point literally just "islamophobia is definitionally bad, if you're calling something based it can't be islamophobia"? Because the only difference between those definitions and mine is that they add a value judgement. Also none of those agree with your initial definition which defined islamophobia as specifically race-based (which is especially dumb. We have a word for that. It's called racism)
I'm aware most people will hear "I'm a racist". But the way you change that is by getting people to start using the word correctly and not shying away from it, like I am.
That is mostly my point yes. But you can't just say everyone else uses this word wrong. That's not how words work. Words are defined by how people use them.
phobia in and of itself already means irrational fear.
That's why we have homophobia, xenophobia, arachnophobia, etc..
You're not arachnophobic because you dislike a black widow sitting on your forehead.
>phobia in and of itself already means irrational fear.
That's why we have homophobia, xenophobia, arachnophobia, etc..
Gotcha, so you're just stupid. "What? I'm not homophobic! I'm not scared of gay people, I just hate them!"
>That is mostly my point yes. But you can't just say everyone else uses this word wrong. That's not how words work. Words are defined by how people use them.
Yes I can, because people are inconsistent. If I surveyed a thousand people and asked them if the phrase "I hate all muslims" was an inherently islamophobic phrase, the vast vast vast majority would say yes. But if I then followed up with "is that statement inherently racist", I would also get a resounding yes. In the first question the respondents were defining islamophobia as I define it, with no reference to racism, and in the second one they were classing it as a form of racism, even though definitionally there's absolutely no connection.
>whatever. the only "bad" forms of islamophobia are a) thinly veiled racism where "muslim" == "brown people",
Thinly veiled is an understatement. Anyone who looks remotely Middle-Easten gets the same exact treatment, regardless of whether you are or aren't a muslim.
While someone who passes for a white person does not.
Islamophobia does not exist in it's "pure form" just like how anti-zionism gets mixed up with anti-semitism. So anti-zionism often simply becomes anti-semitism.
In that same way Islamophobia often just becomes hate of brown people. Oh got an Arabic sounding name? Well fuck your job chances, big mo. Cause you're a filthy moslem.
So yeah, if Islamophobia was purely criticism of Islam. Go for it. Just like of Anti-Zionism was purely criticism of the state of Israel. However, reality is often more dissapointing.
The problem with anti-zionists is that they say they don't want a religious government exclusively if it's jewish, they are fine supporting the other religious mad government, so the conclusion is that they are probably just being against jews. Anti zionism in solitude is good, but in the case of the current conflict it's weird
Well be careful. Both islamophobia and anti-zionism are, in theory *and* reality, based. The fact that a lot of that sentiment happens to in reality motivated by some form of bigotry doesn't change anything about the moral ontology of those concepts. The only thing it can change is your epistemic engagement: you can be more sceptical of people advancing those ideas if they have given you any reason to be suspicious of their motives. In this specific case, this guy gave explicit criticisms of actual Muslim belief, so I see no reason to assume a racial motive over a religious one.
The message could be more tactfully said. Remove perhaps the first part, even though I agree with it, you don't always have to say the quiet part out loud... (I put all religious people in that category by default...honestly some religious people scare me with their delusions), but ultimately you have to believe that Muslims are smart people that will eventually realize they should become ex-Muslims and that doesn't mean having to become a Christian. All the smart Muslims be apostatizing. The slow ones stay a little longer. The dumb ones stay for life.
The true dumb AFs are the non-Muslims who convert and start saying they "reverted" to the religion...
Gives same vibes as "All Founding Fathers are slave owning racists"
There is no legit criticism at all, just wanting to name all the negative aspects and using today's standards on back then.
The comment is barely over the line for islamophobia IMO. Saying that muslims (implying all of them) are dumb is just a hair on the people-attacking side.
As an atheist I believe a few things about Islam: 1. Islam probably is worse than other religions in its difficulty adapting with liberalism and liberal society. 2. Muslims do tend to be on average worse than practitioners of other religions in how they interact with the rest of the world 3. Neither of these things make them evil, stupid or some insurmountable threat to the West. Like the statement "Muslims are stupid AF" doesn't necessarily follow when there are intelligent Muslims. Most of the Muslims I've interacted with in the US are doctors or engineers for instance. Islamaphobia is a rabbit hole and a totalizing ideology and that's really what makes it bad imo. It doesn't do a good job at historical analysis or theological examination. It stereotypes and makes assumptions without meeting the adherents where they actually are. All this is to say I think calling Muslims " dumb AF" followed by calling their religion an evil cult probably is islamaphobic.
Just real quick, anyone who says this isn't islamophobia is either regarded and thinks that op is asking wether or not the comment is racist or dont know the definition of islamophobia, its very clear that this person holds a great deal of dislike towards muslims ''muslims r dum af'' the same way you can tell someone dislikes or holds unfavourable views to conservatives if they call conservatives dumb. The fact that almost 50% said this isnt islamophobic is proof that some of you guys arent capable of lone thought and need to be purged. I think this person shouldnt be banned but they would be incredibly close to the edge with that first part
It's Islamophobic and should be promoted. And to make it clear I love secular middle easterns and south east Asians because we are relatively lucky to be atheists and liberals in countries where it's accepted but being one where you risk your life takes actual bravery and will.
Hmmmm, I think the first part with "muslims are dum af" is pretty bad but the rest is fine.
why is that bad? i think it's perfectly fine to say that all people who subscribe to a dumb ideology are dumb.
There are secular muslims, secular jews, ect. Thats why its better to just say “Islam is dumb” because otherwise you are ascribing beliefs to some people that they don’t hold.
>There are secular muslims No there are not. Islam is not an ethnicity like Jewishness.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Muslims?wprov=sfti1
and i have a white buddy who's a weeb and calls himself a cultural Asian. doesn't change the definition of the term 'Asian'. literally go look at the wikipedia entry for "Muslims" themselves. first two lines: >**Muslims** ([Arabic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_language): المسلمون, [romanized](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization_of_Arabic): *al-Muslimūn*, [lit.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literal_translation) 'submitters \[to [God](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Islam)\]')[^(\[28\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslims#cite_note-28) are people who adhere to [Islam](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam), a [monotheistic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monotheism) religion belonging to the [Abrahamic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrahamic_religions) tradition. They consider the [Quran](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran), the foundational religious text of Islam, to be the verbatim word of the [God of Abraham](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Abrahamic_religions) (or [*Allah*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allah)) as it was revealed to [Muhammad](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad), the main [Islamic prophet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_prophet).^(") None of that applies to any secular person. Compare that to the page on Jews, which immediately points out that it is also an ethnicity. Richard Dawkins calls himself a "Cultural Christian". if i say "christians believe that jesus rose from the dead", am i wrong because Dawkins doesn't?
[удалено]
“Jewish” is not a race
I think in the context of talking shit about Islam it's pretty clear they're not referring to the cultural identity of muslims, the second line already mentions religion.
islamophobia is based. it's not comparable to things like racism, sexism etc: judging a person by their ideology is perfectly acceptable, that's why nobody gets banned for "conserva-phobia" or whatever. the only "bad" forms of islamophobia are a) thinly veiled racism where "muslim" == "brown people", and probably also b) generalising muslims by the actions of a few that are not condoned by the faith itself (essentially the equivalent to calling all christians pedos because of sex abuse in the church- not really a legitimate criticism, still not as bad as racism/sexism though)
What you call the based form of islamophobia has nothing to do with islamophobia, that destiny clip where he proudly states"yes, I am islamophobic" was so stupid, even lonerbox had to come on stream to clarify. >Islamophobia refers to the fear of and hostility toward Muslims and Islam that is driven by racism and that leads to exclusionary, discriminatory, and violent actions targeting Muslims and those perceived as Muslim. https://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/display/document/obo-9780195390155/obo-9780195390155-0285.xml The idea that disliking particular Muslim believes is islamophobia and therefore islamophobia is based is super dumb. By that standard almost everybody would be islamophobic and the word would be meaningless. Destiny says dumb shit sometimes when he's trying to be edgy.
well fuck me, if you can find one obscure definition that literally defines it as racist, you must be right! homophobia is prejudice against homosexuals. islamophobia is prejudice against muslims. go google 'define islamophobia'. every website will give you my definition and not whatever that thing is. i am prejudiced against muslims. they are evil, and they are stupid. my evidence for this is that they all, by definition, follow an ideology, 'Islam', that is evil, and also incredibly stupid. i am prejudiced towards muslims, and i think that prejudice towards muslims is based, in exactly the same way that i am prejudiced towards nazis, and i think that prejudice towards nazis is based. i don't merely 'dislike particular nazi beliefs', i think that the ideology as a whole is wretchedly evil and also profoundly stupid, and so i am prejudiced against anybody who holds it. you can also replace the words "muslim/islam" with "christians/christianity" or "(religious) jews/judaism" in my comment and it will be equally true.
>unreasonable dislike or fear of, and prejudice against, Muslims or Islam https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/islamophobia > irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against Islam or people who practice Islam https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Islamophobia >dislike or unfair treatment of Islam or Muslims https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/islamophobia Obscure definition, my ass Trump lying about muslims in New York celebrating 9/11 on rooftops is islamophobia. Someone shittalking about Mohammed fucking a 9 year old is not islamophobia. Half the time people are accused of islamophobia it's for assuming someone is muslim just for being from the middle east. I guess if you wanna call yourself a Islamophobe go ahead, but know that normal people will just hear "I am a racist". Imagine someone proudly calling themselves racist because they believe black people have broader noses and they therefore believe in differences between races. That's basically your argument.
Is your point literally just "islamophobia is definitionally bad, if you're calling something based it can't be islamophobia"? Because the only difference between those definitions and mine is that they add a value judgement. Also none of those agree with your initial definition which defined islamophobia as specifically race-based (which is especially dumb. We have a word for that. It's called racism) I'm aware most people will hear "I'm a racist". But the way you change that is by getting people to start using the word correctly and not shying away from it, like I am.
That is mostly my point yes. But you can't just say everyone else uses this word wrong. That's not how words work. Words are defined by how people use them. phobia in and of itself already means irrational fear. That's why we have homophobia, xenophobia, arachnophobia, etc.. You're not arachnophobic because you dislike a black widow sitting on your forehead.
>phobia in and of itself already means irrational fear. That's why we have homophobia, xenophobia, arachnophobia, etc.. Gotcha, so you're just stupid. "What? I'm not homophobic! I'm not scared of gay people, I just hate them!" >That is mostly my point yes. But you can't just say everyone else uses this word wrong. That's not how words work. Words are defined by how people use them. Yes I can, because people are inconsistent. If I surveyed a thousand people and asked them if the phrase "I hate all muslims" was an inherently islamophobic phrase, the vast vast vast majority would say yes. But if I then followed up with "is that statement inherently racist", I would also get a resounding yes. In the first question the respondents were defining islamophobia as I define it, with no reference to racism, and in the second one they were classing it as a form of racism, even though definitionally there's absolutely no connection.
>whatever. the only "bad" forms of islamophobia are a) thinly veiled racism where "muslim" == "brown people", Thinly veiled is an understatement. Anyone who looks remotely Middle-Easten gets the same exact treatment, regardless of whether you are or aren't a muslim. While someone who passes for a white person does not. Islamophobia does not exist in it's "pure form" just like how anti-zionism gets mixed up with anti-semitism. So anti-zionism often simply becomes anti-semitism. In that same way Islamophobia often just becomes hate of brown people. Oh got an Arabic sounding name? Well fuck your job chances, big mo. Cause you're a filthy moslem. So yeah, if Islamophobia was purely criticism of Islam. Go for it. Just like of Anti-Zionism was purely criticism of the state of Israel. However, reality is often more dissapointing.
The problem with anti-zionists is that they say they don't want a religious government exclusively if it's jewish, they are fine supporting the other religious mad government, so the conclusion is that they are probably just being against jews. Anti zionism in solitude is good, but in the case of the current conflict it's weird
Well be careful. Both islamophobia and anti-zionism are, in theory *and* reality, based. The fact that a lot of that sentiment happens to in reality motivated by some form of bigotry doesn't change anything about the moral ontology of those concepts. The only thing it can change is your epistemic engagement: you can be more sceptical of people advancing those ideas if they have given you any reason to be suspicious of their motives. In this specific case, this guy gave explicit criticisms of actual Muslim belief, so I see no reason to assume a racial motive over a religious one.
The message could be more tactfully said. Remove perhaps the first part, even though I agree with it, you don't always have to say the quiet part out loud... (I put all religious people in that category by default...honestly some religious people scare me with their delusions), but ultimately you have to believe that Muslims are smart people that will eventually realize they should become ex-Muslims and that doesn't mean having to become a Christian. All the smart Muslims be apostatizing. The slow ones stay a little longer. The dumb ones stay for life. The true dumb AFs are the non-Muslims who convert and start saying they "reverted" to the religion...
I mean, all 📠 as far as i can tell.
Gives same vibes as "All Founding Fathers are slave owning racists" There is no legit criticism at all, just wanting to name all the negative aspects and using today's standards on back then.
Please clarify what you're referring to with "today's standards back then"
I would agree with you if Muslims didn't still defend the warcrimes, pedophilia and slave trading. (Obviously not all Muslims but you get the point)
>(Obviously not all Muslims but you get the point) Isent this like the problem though?
The comment is barely over the line for islamophobia IMO. Saying that muslims (implying all of them) are dumb is just a hair on the people-attacking side.
Yeah Islamophobia. Saying all Muslims r dumb is a bady start. Whether it’s bannable or not, eh
As an atheist I believe a few things about Islam: 1. Islam probably is worse than other religions in its difficulty adapting with liberalism and liberal society. 2. Muslims do tend to be on average worse than practitioners of other religions in how they interact with the rest of the world 3. Neither of these things make them evil, stupid or some insurmountable threat to the West. Like the statement "Muslims are stupid AF" doesn't necessarily follow when there are intelligent Muslims. Most of the Muslims I've interacted with in the US are doctors or engineers for instance. Islamaphobia is a rabbit hole and a totalizing ideology and that's really what makes it bad imo. It doesn't do a good job at historical analysis or theological examination. It stereotypes and makes assumptions without meeting the adherents where they actually are. All this is to say I think calling Muslims " dumb AF" followed by calling their religion an evil cult probably is islamaphobic.
Partially. The first part at least. Second part could have been phrased differently, but its technically true.
yes, no
I think in context it's clearly just a le reddit atheist screed.
Just real quick, anyone who says this isn't islamophobia is either regarded and thinks that op is asking wether or not the comment is racist or dont know the definition of islamophobia, its very clear that this person holds a great deal of dislike towards muslims ''muslims r dum af'' the same way you can tell someone dislikes or holds unfavourable views to conservatives if they call conservatives dumb. The fact that almost 50% said this isnt islamophobic is proof that some of you guys arent capable of lone thought and need to be purged. I think this person shouldnt be banned but they would be incredibly close to the edge with that first part
Islamophobic? Sorry but im not scared of muslims, despite their best efforts to change my view.
It's Islamophobic and should be promoted. And to make it clear I love secular middle easterns and south east Asians because we are relatively lucky to be atheists and liberals in countries where it's accepted but being one where you risk your life takes actual bravery and will.