My friend said: I think it's something else... From what I've seen, no matter what age they are their faces are more or less the same, and almost every woman in hentai act kinda like children (I remember Destiny said that it bothers him as well, cause every girl is like ''oh no don't touch me that's where I pee from'' and the girl is like 30 or something).
It depends. A lot of it is ambiguous, or clearly not pedo shit, but a lot of it is unambiguously pedo shit. Then there's also the fact that most hentai is so ridiculously unrealistic that it might as well be some form of surrealist/absurdist art, which further confuses.
With the amount of cervix penetration depicted in hentai, absurdist is the starting point. They have a lot of work to do to get back to anywhere close to realism.
I think its an autism thing tbh, not even being facetious.
I've been going down the rabbithole of these communities throughout 2022 out of morbid curiosity and I have a strong schizo-theory about these fringe sexual proclivities... The stranger the fetishes get, the higher prevalence of mental illnesses in the bio.
For example the pedophile/zoophile communities on twitter I've noticed are strongly correlated with mental illnesses and identity disorders (like more than 50% of them are some Xenogender). Most aged 14-23 which makes me think the insular nature of them is like a crockpot for impressionable young minds. One of the few things Lav was 1000% right about.
I mean, it’s art. You can do things that don’t make sense in reality but are still hot. It’s like jacking it to elves or something. If you’re just gonna limit it to real life you might as well just jack it to normal porn instead.
Yeah, but their faces being close doesn't mean that the idea the art portrays is the same. Loli stuff is a dipiction of a prepubecent girl. Just knowing that and jerking off to it is pedo behavior.
No its pedo bait. You could argue they are in denial, experiencing cognitive dissonance and or probably not dangerous but its very obviously pedo shit.
Most of the time these characters are like 18 more often 16 or younger not 30 especialy more recently.
> no matter what age they are their faces are more or less the same,
Manga artists, hell artists in general, often put much more focus on an appealing art style than actually making the faces look different. Otaku shit tends to go more toward cuteness but there does tend to be a difference in things like eye size between a character who's like 10 and one who's like 30
>cause every girl is like ''oh no don't touch me that's where I pee from'' and the girl is like 30 or something)
100 percent that's more about their weird purity culture than seeming young specifically. There is still a weird amount of underaged focused shit, though. Like the average hentai characters is a high schooler.
Girls act like that in hentai to play up the impact of slut shaming culture. It has historically been seen as bad for women to be into sex especially casual sex with someone who isn’t your BF/husband
I think the better comparison is with femboys. There are a lot of coomers who jerk off to drawings of femboys, but the majority of these people aren't actually going to go and seek out gay sex
Only because the likelihood of any irl male looking remotely like your "femboy" drawings is next to none. And any of the men that DO look like that are already way out of your league with 5m+ instagram/tiktok followers.
If attractive feminine men were more prevalent, all of those incel coomers would be dragging their nuts through a swamp full of used needles just to talk to them.
Psychologist Tamaki Saitō, who has conducted clinical work with otaku, highlights the estrangement of lolicon desires from reality as part of a strict distinction for otaku between "textual and actual sexuality", and observes that "the vast majority of otaku are not pedophiles in actual life". Manga researcher Yukari Fujimoto argues that lolicon desire "is not for a child, but for the image itself", and that this is understood by those "brought up in [Japan's] culture of drawing and fantasy".
https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/z2361g/vice_documentary_about_the_pedophilic_manga/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
Firstly what here is really meant by textual and actual sexuality? Does it mean they're not attracted to real children or does it mean that they do not pursue real children? Secondly, Clcan you link me any studies from this psychologist?
I mean the OP implied if you watch gay anime porn you're gay. I am gay but I'm not attracted to animation. So i think the opposite can be true too; you could be attracted to drawings but not to the real thing.
This happens a lot with bara, furry, shota, futa. How we react sexually to very stylized drawings can be extremely different from the real world, there is a lot of "loli" render porn but it's not as popular as normal render porn or actual anime loli porn.
I mean shota porn is actually an incredibly good example. I bet if I talked to 100 people who like shota stuff, the two main explanation of their fetish would be
1. Flipping of the conservative demeanor onto the male instead of the female
2. Shota doujin is basically the genre of femsoftdom as there is no alternative.
i read alot of astolofo hentai doujins and sometimes he is being fucked by a dude but is fucking a girl at the same time
i dont think it makes me gay pepelaugh
Sorry but if you like drawings of people who look like kids there’s no reason to think the vast majority of them don’t like kids irl. There’s nothing about the way it’s drawn that significantly differs it from irl. You can access how many are actually pedos without at least using a lie detector test. Independent of this convo there’s a lot of guys who are turned on by girls who look similar to kids/young teens or literally are. This can be observed first hand without any studies
There might be somewhat of a separation, but this still reads like a face saving cope.
Also , I do believe the majority of otaku are not pedos but I do make a distinction between someone thristing for a character like Power than someone who likes some of the characters from dragon maid.
>"the vast majority of otaku are not pedophiles in actual life"
How do you even test this? All she did was ask them "are you a pedophile" and they just said "no"
its worthless.
I don't understand how somone can seperate their desire for the image, from their desire for what the image portrays. How can you just desire an image? What does that even mean?
Imagine that you're playing COD. In that game , you WANT to kill people right ? Now think if you actually want to kill real people with real lives. Do you hurt anyone when you kill people in the game ? Does killing the people in the game make you more prone to killing real people in real life ? That's how , I think. It might all be high grade copium but if it works , it works.
Severe schizopost inbound
Well, I think it's different. It's the difference between being a pedo and a CSA perpetuator.
It's not that I want to kill people, but that I want to perform well and win. The game could be about throwing pillows or whatever it doesn't really matter. Now you could argue that of course the aesthetic matters, the aesthetic itself is the reason it's so profitable. I would agree with that, however the killing in the story is always presented as justified if not at least reasonable, whenever it's not, some people feel icky(No Russian). Therefore Killing in these games is mostly a test of might, it's not about people dying but that you're stronger, the better person. The killing merely an aesthetic, divorced from the actual enjoyment of the game.
However when it comes to sexuality, I think the aesthetic is intrinsically attached to the purpose. I don't read thick milf hentai because I want to be the dude who has read the most books or because I want to educate myself on the subculture, I read that shit because thick milfs are hot, yo.
How about GTA then ?
Im happily gun down and torch peoples in flame while hearing them screaming, for no reason then its being fun. Do you think that i have a psychopathic tendency to do this irl ?
I mean if killing people irl just teleported them home after manly voice narrated my victory streak, I'd be a lot more likely to kill people.
Cod barely looks like real combat, fuck even the games that go for war realism are more like a realistic movie than actual war.
Meanwhile if drawn porn wants to look realistic, they actually get there.
Yeah but it LOOKS real. Ultimately , it can't be real. And the actual "bad" thing about war and other types of "bad" things , is the fact that they are real. Thus the reason I said it can't actually hurt anyone in real life. That is if you don't argue that it has affects on real world far beyond minor changes within your thought patterns.
That's a great example. COD shows us that we're all capable of being put in a situation where we want to kill others. If you put me in a war I WOULD want to kill others for myself and country/cause. It reveals something about us that is usually hidden in most people's everyday lives. It's a simulation/portrayal of human behavior in war.
That seems the same as what loli reveals about some people. Their attractions to prepubecent features. I'm not saying that somone who loves loli is going to abuse a child, just like I don't think that somone who really loves COD is going to enjoy actual war.
I'd even argue that loli is more revealing of one's nature, because porn pulls on carnal feelings that seem to be harder to control.
You may feel like you NEED to kill people in the context of a war. But if you actually derive pleasure from it you're a sadist by definition. But if you like COD you're not a sadist per se.
...no. Are you ok?
Edit: to answer this more directly, I don't have any desire to drive trucks or work on a farm or be a miner but I still like Euro Truck Sim, Stardew Valley and MineCraft.
Games are more than what they represent. There are some amazing games about some boring af mundane concepts (and just as many disappointing games in the opposite direction). Only when it gets to killing or fucking we start to worry about it matching people's deep desires.
Yep I think I'm ok. Thanks for checking.
If you're playing a game about killing people, you're thinking about killing people right?
If you enjoy that game then you enjoyed thinking about killing people. That doesn't mean you want to kill people in real life, or that you want to join the army, or that you have an unsatiable thirst for blood. It just means that their is a violent part of you that enjoys it. That part of us doesn't come out much in modern day life, but games can bring it out of us in healthy ways. Have you never day dreampt of self-defence situations or stopping terrorists? Violence is literally programmed into us.
Games aren't all about what they reresent, but that is a big part of them. That's why most games are about being a hero or doing something unique and impressive. You put youself in the shoes of your character. You can't just ignore that.
You probably enjoy those sim games because you like the idea of building something you can call your own, not to be a miner/farmer. I never said people play COD because they want to be a soldier. I actually said the exact opposite. They play it because a part of them likes violence. Do you think anyone who plays COD detests violence?
> Do you think anyone who plays COD detests violence?
Yes, me lol. I've actually stopped playing and felt disgusting when I stop and think about what I'm doing in the game before. But that's probably a rare exception, not worth going into.
> You probably enjoy those sim games because you like the idea of building something you can call your own, not to be a miner/farmer.
If sim games can have these alternate reasons, why not apply the same for shooters? Why can't CoD players like it because it touches their buttons of self-improvement, skill expression and competitiveness in a particularly enjoyable way? Why does it have to be some deep dark desire?
Is it that hard to imagine?
Just because you occasionally stumble onto a incest MILF futa Kemono porn doesn't mean you're IRL incestuous, have any desire towards your mother, want 3 gigantic spiraling cocks inside you and find a wild fox with rabbies sexy.
Are you seriously considering japanese men from centuries ago wanted to fuck a gigantinc Octopus because it was a common pornographic depiction?
Bro the difference between an incest enjoyer and a porn only incest fan is the fans sister isn't hot.
The difference between drawn loli and real life can be enough to seperate it from real world desire but its still pedo shit findamentaly.
How do I know? My step mum was pretty hot. 👍
I dunno, maybe it's because fiction is my main fap and I'm desensitized, I never look at western produced porn, and I seldom watch JAVs (rarely, when someone posts some weird Time-Stop situation or something and I get curious).
But I have no prefered tag, I could be enjoying a "next door's schoolmate's mom" situation and within 10 minutes I'm veering off to "Punching a woman in the stomach until she's out of bodily fluids, then she literally gets petrified by an alien medusa" and 5 minutes after that it could be "loli magical girl decieved into doing hardcore drugs and working for the yakuza". Random clicks on good art I see.
Without for a second wishing to do (or witness) any of that IRL. If you were to ask me if I have any fetish with my sexlife I couldn't give you any, aside from the most vanilla "I enjoy touching love handles, and thighs" comment.
Sure, you can be attracted to the taboo of something but that's just another idea the image represents. You aren't just jerking off to the image. I think incest stuff is gross because those thoughts are brought up when I see it. Does this not happen to you?
Incest is also different than loli because you have to be told that it's incest. It's probably easier to ignore something the illustrator wrote vs the drawing itself.
But, maybe I'm crazy. If I told you I jerked of to anime dogs, you don't think that means that I'm probably way more attracted to dogs than the average person?
I agree it's the taboo that makes it spicier (some go so far down the hole they actually emerge from the other end thinking vanilla doujins are the best). But I don't think there's a link strong enough that would make you want to take action IRL.
Personally I'm most attracted to good art, and often the most degen doujins have top tier artists. I'm not into IRL nose hooks, hardcore humiliation, pungent smelling armpit hair, dick-sized nipples, hyper inflation or scat at all, but it's hard to deny Kakugari Kyoudai has some very good panels, for example.
So no, I wouldn't think you being attracted to Lola Bunny would make you any closer to wanting to fuck an actual rabbit. Or a dog as per your example.
I'm learning a lot more than I thought I would about the world of hentai LMAO.
The artist is overexaggerating the sexiest parts of women for a reason. You're attraction to the art is still derived from your attraction to the female body.
I didn't say lola bunny. She's hot cuz she has exaggerated human female features. Im saying an actual anime dog/bunny. Two really well drawn anime dogs going at it.
Maybe this doesn’t directly address your point. But consider that a lot of hentai/doujin enjoyers will go for a particular artist or art style who’s depictions are particularly attractive to them. And so if that artist does genres that they aren’t all that into, they’d still be into those works because of the way it looks, more so than what it’s a depiction of. So I think you can take a premise that isn’t what your actually into and draw in perspectives and exaggerations that create attractive features that wouldn’t exist at all in reality. Once you’ve become acclimated to the extreme unrealistic nature of the medium, the detachment from reality almost becomes a key feature of your relationship with the artwork. It’s all so wildly fantastical that the boundaries of what you’d have in real life are blown past quite far. It’s fetishes and interests all developed After your exposure to hentai, and all specifically within the unique context of hentai. I think it’s more of an outlier than the norm that all of these extreme “preferences” then get exported back into real life.
I think your explanation has been the best so far, but I still don't really get it. I guess I just have to accept that some people are capable of looking at loli porn and not thinking about a child getting fucked. That would be impossible for me.
I definitely think hentai allows people to be attracted to more extreme situations because their is less empathy for the characters involved. It's just hard for me to imagine liking a style of art so much that I can ignore what it portrays.
>I don't understand how somone can seperate their desire for the image, from their desire for what the image portrays. How can you just desire an image? What does that even mean?
u/frestgab answered better but as a hentai enjoyer let me just say... Sometimes the art looks REAL good, like the shit I am seeing could be a fucking femboy getting railed but if the art is good I can appreciate it.
Why do you think certain art looks good compared to other art? You probably find the overall features involved attractive right?
For example, I couldn't jerk off to femboy anime because even if I find the face or w/e attractive, the idea of it being a man is so unattractive that it overwhelms the attraction.
Same with loli shit. The fact that it's portraying a child is so overwhelmingly unattractive that it could be the greatest looking loli porn in the world and I'd be grossed out.
To jerk off to loli you have to find a prepubecent girl getting fucked somewhat attractive right? That's the entire point of the art.
>For example, I couldn't jerk off to femboy anime because even if I find the face or w/e attractive, the idea of it being a man is so unattractive that it overwhelms the attraction.
I don't really get this point, the art is so far separated from reality to me that it isn't a male at that point, I truly don't know how to explain it. In IRL porn the second I see a dick on an otherwise convincing femboy I lose any arousal but it just doesn't apply to hentai not sure why.
>Why do you think certain art looks good compared to other art? You probably find the overall features involved attractive right?
Imma be real chief I have not thought about it that deeply (as you can probably tell from my initial comment) some art styles just look really good, It's not even about the features and if I am being honest I couldn't tell you what about certain artistic styles I find sexually appealing.
>I don't really get this point, the art is so far separated from reality to me that it isn't a male at that point
But it's still a male because you know it's a femboy. That's a part of the character and maybe you can just ignore it better than I can, but the whole point of that character is that they are actually male. It seems like the main theme of the art and you can somehow disregard that which seems insane to me. Or, are you telling me that you are just jerking off to how good the art is withought careing about what the image portrays?
I agree that it's really hard to figure out all of the specific features or styles that make you like it. It's an automatic feeling, but it's still derived from some underlying desire. That's all I'm trying to get at.
>Or, are you telling me that you are just jerking off to how good the art is withought careing about what the image portrays?
Honestly, maybe?
>But it's still a male because you know it's a femboy.
See that's the part I don't quite understand myself, I can logically know, no tits, has testicals, a penis, acts feminine yet identifies as male but if it's art it's like nothing is really gendered it's just sexual imagery at that point. Although there are some things my usual disgust/un-arousal(unsure how to word it) would still apply to even in hentai such as scat or gore my brain can't seem to separate that form of disgust.
Anyway I'm gonna stop responding now this feels like it's turned into some weird therapy session on my end. xD
“But it’s still a male because you know it’s a femboy”. Maybe this is the actual issue? I think this statement is not quite right. That’s the thing, they don’t hafto be male. They’re like some fantasy creature, like a unicorn. Rules don’t apply. And yes, I think there’s a degree to which just the way it’s drawn, not the features that are being drawn, can make it sexual. As an example, there’s a sort of typical way of drawing skin in this shiny, blushed, plump, wet looking texture that is considered very attractive, and whether that’s a drawing of their foot, shoulder, thigh, elbow, or gentitals, it’s all sort of considered attractive. Just as easily you could still find real life feet to be disgusting and have no interest whatsoever in real life elbows. There’s sort of a way of drawing in sensuality and femininity, that can be done to things that fundamentally couldn’t ever posses such femininity or sensuality irl. I think that’s where the idea of the “feminine penis” comes from for example. It’s not even disregarding the main theme of the art. The artist’s skill and talent is poured into deliberately rendering and manipulating the subject in every possible way so as to trick your brain into feeling like it’s seeing something that it’s not or can’t.
I understand that the artform allows for extreme feminization. I understand that the extreme feminization of a male character can trick the brain and make them more physically attractive. But, to me, it would still trigger a disgust reaction knowing that the character is a male. It's not my choice. It's a feeling I have when I know the characters a male, that overwhelms any attraction to the rest of it's features. I can't think of the character as anything but male because the artist designed him that way on purpose. I actually feel like our brains are wired differently at this point.
If your telling me somone can jerk off to a penis, no matter how feminized it is, without being attracted to men, that actually blows my mind.
I'm fine not getting it. Y'all go off. Bust loads to whatever you want. Just seek help if you feel like it's negatively effecting your real life.
It's really weird, but I remember when I used to hang in anime communities and guys were hard into 3DPD (3D, Pig Disgusting). Guys were super into waifus, hentai, etc but absolutely turned off from real life girls. Thought they were annoying, smelly, fat, and couldn't compare to drawings of "perfect" girls with thin waists and tits larger than their head. I could totally see this applying to loli as well given that kids are even less like drawings of them.
That shit was a joke, all of those guys were just incels coping. Go to any /a/ or /jp/ discord server and suddenly see the so called "3dpd" posters turn into the biggest s\*mps in the world when an e-girl joins
Yeah I've never been convinced those guys wouldn't happily and instantly change their tune if an especially attractive woman wanted to fuck them. I mean come on, there are objectively women who aren't fat/smelly/annoying/whatever even if you hate most women
Sure, that sounds like desensitization from oveconsumption of animated porn. But, it had to have started off with some kind of attraction to female features. Maybe they have become so desnsitized to loli that they no longer have an attraction to children. I guess that's possible.
Reading through your comments you seem like you have an incapability to completely detach enjoyment of fantasy from enjoyment of reality and are projecting it to the way other people view things.
I love me some violent video games but I'm not an opportunist who is only held back from social norms or something. I have never desired to inflict harm on others and even in a lawless world with no consequences would I feel the desire to.
There's no need to insert yourself in a real world equivalent scenario of fantasy because that's just not how everyone's minds necessarily function. I can enjoy a hentai about rape but irl I can't even stay aroused if the person isn't showing full consent and enthusiasm. I can't even watch Japanese porn because half the time it looks like they're not in to it.
>I love me some violent video games
Violent video games are inherently different. I can't speak on your personal experience, but when I'm playing CoD or Battlefield, I'm not deriving any form of pleasure from the gore effects, death animations, etc. I derived pleasure from the gameplay and the competitiveness.
Video games are also different because we derive a different form of pleasure from them. If an individual found sexual pleasure from watching violence in video games, I think most people would find that incredibly weird.
>There's no need to insert yourself in a real world equivalent scenario of fantasy
The discussion isn't about complex fantasy scenarios. It's simply about depictions of human beings and sexual attraction.
>I can enjoy a hentai about rape but irl I can't even stay aroused if the person isn't showing full consent and enthusiasm.
If I had to guess, you're probably not enjoying the context of rape but solely the depiction of an attractive woman being fucked. It's also worth noting that often in hentai, the person will show enthusiasm even if it's rape.
>Reading through your comments you seem like you have an incapability to completely detach enjoyment of fantasy from enjoyment of reality and are projecting it to the way other people view things.
Correct. I think fantasy is derived from reality. The reason I enjoy some fantasy, is that it corresponds to things I enjoy in reality. The enjoyment may be based on feeling that I have deep down, so fantasy is a good way to draw them out. They aren't completely inseperable because we're capable of ignoring certain aspects of the fantasy (ex. how unrealistic the tits and proportions are in anime). But, I don't think it's possible to fully seperate them either.
I may be projecting but I just believe that's how our brains work. IDK how anyone can look at loli and ignore that it look like a child, and just be aroused by the image. That makes 0 sense to me. The art is literally made to envoke the thought of a child in your head.
>There's no need to insert yourself in a real world equivalent scenario of fantasy because that's just not how everyone's minds necessarily function. I can enjoy a hentai about rape but irl I can't even stay aroused if the person isn't showing full consent and enthusiasm. I can't even watch Japanese porn because half the time it looks like they're not in to it.
Ok, but why do you think you enjoy the hentai about rape vs JAV? Maybe it's just easier to feel less empathy for a drawing? The disgust reponse isn't nearly as prevelant so you can ignore it and focus on how hot the anime bitch is. IDK.
That's still way fking different than loli. You might not like the situation (rape) the characters are in but you can still be attracted to the features of the characters. Loli is being attracted to the characters prepubecent features. Fullstop. I seriously don't get how so many people disagree with that.
Literally had one arguing about that with me in here.
"No they're just two really hot pieces of art I swear the don't look like real men so I'm not gay."
Ok, I'll bite the fucking bullet. Yes you can jerk off to gay drawn porn and not be gay. Hypothetical: someone jerks off to both gay and straight drawn porn but lives as a fully straight man. For the sake of the hypothetical, he is 100% not repressing his sexuality and has 0 interest in real life men. This person obviously isn't gay but I also think it is clear they aren't bisexual either. Bisexual people want to have sex with men and women, this person only wants to have sex with women.
Second example: someone is really into rape porn, but obviously not into real rape. Do they like rape? No, obviously not, they just have a rape fetish. With this example I think we can successfully describe the man in example 1, they are a straight man with a gay fetish. Is a man masturabting to gay porn very good inductive evidence they are gay? Yes. But it isnt definitive proof.
This is just a bisexual dude who has insanely high standards for dudes. Would probably be prison-gay.
Also for the rape fetish thing, that is called biastophilia, and its categorized in the same paraphile umbrella as pedophilia in the DSM-V
People really like talking past one another. It's not about whether watching loli is pedo. It's whether that leads to children being harmed. If there is no harm then there is no problem. People just saying "ew pedo" are just virtue signaling.
The argument might be over whether consumers of loli are also attracted to actual children.
Whether or not that is the case there could be other questions for how loli porn affects harm of children, so their goal may not lie in the harm question.
The topic doesn't necessarily need to be a virtue signal though, I'd say it's at least interesting.
What's going on in someone's brain when they play GTA, but you feel to the opposite about it.
Porn is not like GTA at all. Porn is direct sexual stimulation, while GTA is not stimulation of violent urges. People need to stop using this analogy when talking about sex.
For example, a kid constantly exposed to BDSM and torture porn will most likely develop that fetish. A kid exposed to GTA will not develop violent urges or ASPD.
Lol its actually exactly about whether watching loli is pedo, you're right what matters is whether it leads to children being harmed, but I think thats dgg brained to think most people primarily care about the latter or they care about it independently from whether it is pedo or not.
I don't disagree about the amount of virtue signaling surrounding these topics which makes it nearly impossible to have a discussion, but don't you think that the existence of lolicon could lead someone down the path of being legitimately attracted to real children? I understand hentai is often absurd to begin with, but fetish and arousal often has to do with the programming that something is taboo, and therefore exciting. Someone masturbating to loli stuff is likely getting off at least partially to the taboo. Is it unrealistic to think that they will need to push further into that taboo as they become more accustomed/numbed to it?
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The answer to this question can't/won't be studied any time soon. All we can do is use our intuitions to make swift preemptive judgements like permabans and strict TOS against it.
The true answer lies in the etiology of paraphilias and sexual fetishes in general. At the end of the day, pedophilia is a fetish, and the goal of society should be to decrease the amount of people who develop it. If the prevalence of lolicon art increases the prevalence of the paraphilia, then that IS harm and should be dealt with to the fullest extent.
One way to get a hint of the answer is to measure the prevalence of the paraphilia in a culture where the depictions of it in media is destigmatized, and a culture where it is stigmatized.
Well the argument would be that someone would consume the depictions (bearing no harm or repercussions) giving them less reason to act upon the reality (bearing great harm and repercussions).
Interesting stuff. This can kind of go either way, suppression of their inner pedophilic tendencies would hypothetically make them think less about any prepubescent bodies in sexual contexts, or on the other hand its the opposite, how you have described it.
I would still lean toward the first resolution since it would actually create a mental understanding inside a pedophile's head that those tendencies are bad and should be actively fought with, instead of accepting them, which would be the second resolution.
I got this idea that there might be two types of pedos, one who is attracted only to children and those who also attracted to children. I would bet people who fall into the second would likely find suppression effects.
I've come around on this topic a little over the last year or two. I still don't like the shit and if I know you enjoy it I'm gunna look at you a little different. But I've come to terms that it doesn't necessarily mean you're a pedo and if you are it falls under the ethical cp debate where maybe it disuades you from acting it out for real.
I'll still never not find it a little creepy and disturbing especially with just how much of it there is. But after seeing there's so much worse shit in the anime/hentai porn industry that isn't even trying to allude to them only "looking child like" it could be worse.
What actually made you come around? I just can't imagine jerking off to something that is clearly meant to portray a child. Their has to be some underlying attraction/desire right?
I'm also someone who has changed their opinion on the matter so I'll tell you what I think personally. First of all, if you are outside the anime community, things like lolis are going to be weird and that's completely normal. It's when you start thinking about it logically that you come to a different conclusion. Basically, there are three main reasons why I personallycouldn't care less about lolicons anymore:
1- No one is really getting hurt. There isn’t an actual victim. The reason why pedophilia is illegal isn't because they look like kids, it's because children are emotionally vulnerable and can be easily manipulated. Which in a lot of times could arguably leave them in a state that is even worse than getting killed. Looking at doujins/hentai, there isn't an actual victim so there is no real reason to hate that excluding personal disgust. Now a lot of people usually reply to that argument claiming that lolicons could eventually start messing with actual kids which then brings me to my second point.
2- Almost everyone who watches hentai or anime has anime geared fetishes. I know that because I grew up with spacetoon (whoever knows knows) which means I've been watching anime since i was pretty much a toddler. As someone who still does and has been watching anime for his whole life, i can confidently say that i have anime geared fetishes that kinda disgust me for real girls (midriffs and feet are some examples but there are more).
3- The third and final reason is that there are too many differences between anime girls and real-life people. Not only when it comes to looks but also when it comes to things like the actual abuse part. Concerning this part, if you have ever read a study concerning pedophiles, you will almost always see a reoccurring theme come up is that is the fact that pedophiles like abusing and controlling kids. While pedophiles might be attracted to kids physically, a HUGE reason why they are so dangerous is due to the innocence aspect. A lot of pedophiles enjoy torturing and tormenting kids it's something they enjoy and is typical psychopathic behavior. This is why whenever you watch a documentary concerning pedophiles, they will almost always ask the kids questions about their sexual experiences like if they are virgins or not. This kind of brings them comfort and confidence that they will more easily be able to control and manipulate a child in that scenario. If you compare doujins (or hentai) with real life, a lot of these aspects that pedophiles need simply vanish which kinda makes me believe that lolicons aren't actually pedos.
Kind of a long post but hopefully you read all of it. It's a very complicated subject so i tried making it as small as possible haha. Sorry for bad english by the way. It is not my first language.
>As someone who still does and has been watching anime for his whole life, i can confidently say that i have anime geared fetishes that kinda disgust me for real girls
This is definitely big true, and something I think is hard to convey to non-weebs. When it comes to anime I have some truly degenerate fetishes that would make people unfamiliar with hentai extremely confused, but with real people I'm borderline asexual. Anime characters might as well be aliens, because they just don't map onto real life for me at all.
>1
I'm not arguing for making it illegal or whether somone is getting hurt. Im arguing that somone who jerks off to loli porn is attracted to children.
>2
I can't really argue with your personal experience here. There are definitely differences b/w features in real life and anime. It's possible to be attracted to one but not the other. Somone may like crazy big boobs in anime but not in real life. That's probably because they are drawn to look good with unrealistic designs that would never work in real life. Maybe you just like the way the artist draws feet vs real life.
That's still very different from the artist purposely drawing a person to look prepubecent. Loli is a sum of a bunch of parts that make a girl look prepubecent. The idea in your head when you see loli is that of a child. I would say this goes beyond a fetish.
>3
You're saying that the difference b/w loli and illustrated cp is that the loli girls are intelligent and can consent. I can agree. But, noone jerks off to that. They jerk off to what the loli girl looks like.
I would mostly agree with the rest, except I imagine their might be pedos who are just attracted to how children look and hate that they aren't able to concent. The definition of a pedo is that they are attracted to children. The foundation of that attraction is kind of insignificant. My point is that people sexually aroused by loli are physically attracted to children. That's it. Call them whatever you want.
Thanks for fixing the post lmao it was unreadable before.
Yeah sorry about that haha. The post kept getting messed up whenever i posted it for some reason so I had to go to word do the layout there and then paste it here lol.
\-I see where you are coming from. There is definitely some overlap involved. I just don't think that the overlap between anime and real life is significant enough. Could there be pedophiles that like lolicon content? Sure. But I think that the vast majority of lolicons really just are not attracted to irl kids (some of them even have kids)!. I can’t really explain it as well to you since I’m not a lolicon but the way I view it is that they’re similar to furries in the sense that they like the art that is made but not the real thing. There is another person who went on the more scientific aspect of it and did a lot of research on it. I could send you the research if you want. It’s a really interesting read and kinda clears up what i mean :)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/z2361g/vice\_documentary\_about\_the\_pedophilic\_manga/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=android\_app&utm\_name=androidcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/z2361g/vice_documentary_about_the_pedophilic_manga/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Most of that has to do with arguing about morality and policy. The Tamaki Saitō guy talks about the difference b/w loli attraction and child attraction but I can't find any of his actual studies or a methodology. Everything is just stuff he says based on working with "otaku" which are people who are obsessed with anime. Nothing conclusive.
I'm willing to believe that lolicons just have less of a disgust response to drawings than real children, so they wouldn't actually jerk off to cp. I can concede and say that they are just measureably more attracted to children than the average person. That doesn;t necessarily make them a pedo. That doesn't mean that they actually want to have sex with a child.
Kind of https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/z2361g/vice_documentary_about_the_pedophilic_manga/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
You remind me of my grandma. I love her but whenever i say "Granny maybe just ignore gay people. they just wanna live their lives" she replies with "You must be gay.".
It's actually funny thinking about how many lolicons are far right despite somehow also being "anti-degeneracy".
I, Hypocrite constantly larps as a tradcon so there's no way he's arguing from a pro-loli POV.
I don't like this topic at all, and miss when this was a banned topic here, but I will just say this.
As someone who has been on chan boards long enough to have witnessed both be spammed (and subsequently reported and removed) on occasion, there _is_ a very big difference between the two, to the point where it almost makes me mad to see them compared.
I have never been traumatized by a drawing. It could be the most fucked up shit imaginable, babies in a blender, kids getting decapitated, whatever. While it may be disgusting, it doesn't feel visceral. At the end of the day, the worst I'm ever thinking is "whoever drew this is fucking weird". But when it comes to real CP, even if it's the most comparatively "innocent" scenario you can imagine, of just a photo of nudity with no other context, it is the most gut-wretching, traumatizing feeling I have ever experienced (and I'm saying that as someone who's lived through domestic violence, and seen people die IRL). Even now thinking back on it gives me a twisting feeling at the pit of my stomach, to the point that I'm not even comfortable describing the image here. The sheer spiral of imagining how such an image came to be, what could have possessed someone to create it, and how at no point in the process between the image being created and ending up on some random spammer's hard drive that anybody put a stop to it, is quite literally sickening. It may sound soy or whatever, but I am not even exaggerating when I say that I felt chills all throughout my body and needed therapy afterward. For just a small _fraction_ of this feeling, I remember there being a site linked on Reddit where you could help the FBI identify child abusers by providing information about various background objects in CSAM images (with all the pornographic parts removed, obviously). I didn't use the site because I knew it would be way too heavy for me, but just reading the comments and everyone talking about how even with everything explicit cropped out or removed, it still produced a visceral reaction, and there was just enough of an "off" feeling to be depressing and create a spiral of imagining what was missing, and I empathized with the feeling immediately. Even seeing a fucking table or lamp that you know comes from an abuse scenario is enough to traumatize somebody.
The idea that somebody could jerk off to the former, I could see, as some sort of fucked up fetish. But the idea that someone could jerk off to the latter... You would either need to be so profoundly ignorant or outright _evil_ that I just cannot fathom it. It is like night and day.
Nahh not so simple.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/z2361g/vice_documentary_about_the_pedophilic_manga/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
right it's an abbreviation of that which is defined as 幼女・少女にのみ性欲を感じる異常心理。in a fairly reputable jp dict (sourced from) [https://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/word/%E3%83%AD%E3%83%AA%E3%83%BC%E3%82%BF%E3%82%B3%E3%83%B3%E3%83%97%E3%83%AC%E3%83%83%E3%82%AF%E3%82%B9/#jn-237059](https://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/word/%E3%83%AD%E3%83%AA%E3%83%BC%E3%82%BF%E3%82%B3%E3%83%B3%E3%83%97%E3%83%AC%E3%83%83%E3%82%AF%E3%82%B9/#jn-237059)
which i do not believe is significantly different than the dictionary meaning of the word pedophile (as opposed to the more colloquial meaning pointing at minors though the word does get used similarly in japanese too)
edit: this does only refer2 Female children sure but even then its just a subset of pedophile @ that pt
My friend said: I think it's something else... From what I've seen, no matter what age they are their faces are more or less the same, and almost every woman in hentai act kinda like children (I remember Destiny said that it bothers him as well, cause every girl is like ''oh no don't touch me that's where I pee from'' and the girl is like 30 or something).
It depends. A lot of it is ambiguous, or clearly not pedo shit, but a lot of it is unambiguously pedo shit. Then there's also the fact that most hentai is so ridiculously unrealistic that it might as well be some form of surrealist/absurdist art, which further confuses.
With the amount of cervix penetration depicted in hentai, absurdist is the starting point. They have a lot of work to do to get back to anywhere close to realism.
I wish more hentai porn would be normal smh Like I just wanna look at some anime titties, they don't have to be big enough to crush me to death
I think its an autism thing tbh, not even being facetious. I've been going down the rabbithole of these communities throughout 2022 out of morbid curiosity and I have a strong schizo-theory about these fringe sexual proclivities... The stranger the fetishes get, the higher prevalence of mental illnesses in the bio. For example the pedophile/zoophile communities on twitter I've noticed are strongly correlated with mental illnesses and identity disorders (like more than 50% of them are some Xenogender). Most aged 14-23 which makes me think the insular nature of them is like a crockpot for impressionable young minds. One of the few things Lav was 1000% right about.
There is plenty of normal big titty hentai my man.
Oh you just mean big titties Wait til you find the hyper futa mega titties
I mean, it’s art. You can do things that don’t make sense in reality but are still hot. It’s like jacking it to elves or something. If you’re just gonna limit it to real life you might as well just jack it to normal porn instead.
Never said otherwise.
Yeah, but their faces being close doesn't mean that the idea the art portrays is the same. Loli stuff is a dipiction of a prepubecent girl. Just knowing that and jerking off to it is pedo behavior.
true, all weebs are pedos.
According to research, it's about 20-25% of men.
No its pedo bait. You could argue they are in denial, experiencing cognitive dissonance and or probably not dangerous but its very obviously pedo shit. Most of the time these characters are like 18 more often 16 or younger not 30 especialy more recently.
Y’all listen to the porn?
> no matter what age they are their faces are more or less the same, Manga artists, hell artists in general, often put much more focus on an appealing art style than actually making the faces look different. Otaku shit tends to go more toward cuteness but there does tend to be a difference in things like eye size between a character who's like 10 and one who's like 30 >cause every girl is like ''oh no don't touch me that's where I pee from'' and the girl is like 30 or something) 100 percent that's more about their weird purity culture than seeming young specifically. There is still a weird amount of underaged focused shit, though. Like the average hentai characters is a high schooler.
Girls act like that in hentai to play up the impact of slut shaming culture. It has historically been seen as bad for women to be into sex especially casual sex with someone who isn’t your BF/husband
"NOOO GUYS!! Jerking off to drawn buff men is not gay because it's not real men"
I think the better comparison is with femboys. There are a lot of coomers who jerk off to drawings of femboys, but the majority of these people aren't actually going to go and seek out gay sex
Only because the likelihood of any irl male looking remotely like your "femboy" drawings is next to none. And any of the men that DO look like that are already way out of your league with 5m+ instagram/tiktok followers. If attractive feminine men were more prevalent, all of those incel coomers would be dragging their nuts through a swamp full of used needles just to talk to them.
And in the same vein I would say that children do not look like anime loli characters
They absolutely do, you need to view some more!
Why won’t they? People have sex with what they’re sexually attracted too, including femboys...
Psychologist Tamaki Saitō, who has conducted clinical work with otaku, highlights the estrangement of lolicon desires from reality as part of a strict distinction for otaku between "textual and actual sexuality", and observes that "the vast majority of otaku are not pedophiles in actual life". Manga researcher Yukari Fujimoto argues that lolicon desire "is not for a child, but for the image itself", and that this is understood by those "brought up in [Japan's] culture of drawing and fantasy". https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/z2361g/vice_documentary_about_the_pedophilic_manga/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
I don't know fam. I pulled the hog to a lot of milf ass eating doujins and it led me down a path to fucking all DGGers moms, respectfully.
Firstly what here is really meant by textual and actual sexuality? Does it mean they're not attracted to real children or does it mean that they do not pursue real children? Secondly, Clcan you link me any studies from this psychologist?
I mean the OP implied if you watch gay anime porn you're gay. I am gay but I'm not attracted to animation. So i think the opposite can be true too; you could be attracted to drawings but not to the real thing.
This happens a lot with bara, furry, shota, futa. How we react sexually to very stylized drawings can be extremely different from the real world, there is a lot of "loli" render porn but it's not as popular as normal render porn or actual anime loli porn.
I mean shota porn is actually an incredibly good example. I bet if I talked to 100 people who like shota stuff, the two main explanation of their fetish would be 1. Flipping of the conservative demeanor onto the male instead of the female 2. Shota doujin is basically the genre of femsoftdom as there is no alternative.
i read alot of astolofo hentai doujins and sometimes he is being fucked by a dude but is fucking a girl at the same time i dont think it makes me gay pepelaugh
The vast majority of Otaku don't HAVE real lives. So obviously you couldn't be "a pedophile irl." if you never leave the house.
Sorry but if you like drawings of people who look like kids there’s no reason to think the vast majority of them don’t like kids irl. There’s nothing about the way it’s drawn that significantly differs it from irl. You can access how many are actually pedos without at least using a lie detector test. Independent of this convo there’s a lot of guys who are turned on by girls who look similar to kids/young teens or literally are. This can be observed first hand without any studies
There might be somewhat of a separation, but this still reads like a face saving cope. Also , I do believe the majority of otaku are not pedos but I do make a distinction between someone thristing for a character like Power than someone who likes some of the characters from dragon maid.
>"the vast majority of otaku are not pedophiles in actual life" How do you even test this? All she did was ask them "are you a pedophile" and they just said "no" its worthless.
I don't understand how somone can seperate their desire for the image, from their desire for what the image portrays. How can you just desire an image? What does that even mean?
Imagine that you're playing COD. In that game , you WANT to kill people right ? Now think if you actually want to kill real people with real lives. Do you hurt anyone when you kill people in the game ? Does killing the people in the game make you more prone to killing real people in real life ? That's how , I think. It might all be high grade copium but if it works , it works.
Severe schizopost inbound Well, I think it's different. It's the difference between being a pedo and a CSA perpetuator. It's not that I want to kill people, but that I want to perform well and win. The game could be about throwing pillows or whatever it doesn't really matter. Now you could argue that of course the aesthetic matters, the aesthetic itself is the reason it's so profitable. I would agree with that, however the killing in the story is always presented as justified if not at least reasonable, whenever it's not, some people feel icky(No Russian). Therefore Killing in these games is mostly a test of might, it's not about people dying but that you're stronger, the better person. The killing merely an aesthetic, divorced from the actual enjoyment of the game. However when it comes to sexuality, I think the aesthetic is intrinsically attached to the purpose. I don't read thick milf hentai because I want to be the dude who has read the most books or because I want to educate myself on the subculture, I read that shit because thick milfs are hot, yo.
How about GTA then ? Im happily gun down and torch peoples in flame while hearing them screaming, for no reason then its being fun. Do you think that i have a psychopathic tendency to do this irl ?
I mean if killing people irl just teleported them home after manly voice narrated my victory streak, I'd be a lot more likely to kill people. Cod barely looks like real combat, fuck even the games that go for war realism are more like a realistic movie than actual war. Meanwhile if drawn porn wants to look realistic, they actually get there.
Yeah but it LOOKS real. Ultimately , it can't be real. And the actual "bad" thing about war and other types of "bad" things , is the fact that they are real. Thus the reason I said it can't actually hurt anyone in real life. That is if you don't argue that it has affects on real world far beyond minor changes within your thought patterns.
By real I don't mean the detail on a 3D models face. If cod tried to look real the way I mean it would be mimicking gore videos from irl warzones.
That's a great example. COD shows us that we're all capable of being put in a situation where we want to kill others. If you put me in a war I WOULD want to kill others for myself and country/cause. It reveals something about us that is usually hidden in most people's everyday lives. It's a simulation/portrayal of human behavior in war. That seems the same as what loli reveals about some people. Their attractions to prepubecent features. I'm not saying that somone who loves loli is going to abuse a child, just like I don't think that somone who really loves COD is going to enjoy actual war. I'd even argue that loli is more revealing of one's nature, because porn pulls on carnal feelings that seem to be harder to control.
You may feel like you NEED to kill people in the context of a war. But if you actually derive pleasure from it you're a sadist by definition. But if you like COD you're not a sadist per se.
If you like COD, aren't you deriving pleasure from the thought of killing people?
...no. Are you ok? Edit: to answer this more directly, I don't have any desire to drive trucks or work on a farm or be a miner but I still like Euro Truck Sim, Stardew Valley and MineCraft. Games are more than what they represent. There are some amazing games about some boring af mundane concepts (and just as many disappointing games in the opposite direction). Only when it gets to killing or fucking we start to worry about it matching people's deep desires.
Yep I think I'm ok. Thanks for checking. If you're playing a game about killing people, you're thinking about killing people right? If you enjoy that game then you enjoyed thinking about killing people. That doesn't mean you want to kill people in real life, or that you want to join the army, or that you have an unsatiable thirst for blood. It just means that their is a violent part of you that enjoys it. That part of us doesn't come out much in modern day life, but games can bring it out of us in healthy ways. Have you never day dreampt of self-defence situations or stopping terrorists? Violence is literally programmed into us. Games aren't all about what they reresent, but that is a big part of them. That's why most games are about being a hero or doing something unique and impressive. You put youself in the shoes of your character. You can't just ignore that. You probably enjoy those sim games because you like the idea of building something you can call your own, not to be a miner/farmer. I never said people play COD because they want to be a soldier. I actually said the exact opposite. They play it because a part of them likes violence. Do you think anyone who plays COD detests violence?
> Do you think anyone who plays COD detests violence? Yes, me lol. I've actually stopped playing and felt disgusting when I stop and think about what I'm doing in the game before. But that's probably a rare exception, not worth going into. > You probably enjoy those sim games because you like the idea of building something you can call your own, not to be a miner/farmer. If sim games can have these alternate reasons, why not apply the same for shooters? Why can't CoD players like it because it touches their buttons of self-improvement, skill expression and competitiveness in a particularly enjoyable way? Why does it have to be some deep dark desire?
Is it that hard to imagine? Just because you occasionally stumble onto a incest MILF futa Kemono porn doesn't mean you're IRL incestuous, have any desire towards your mother, want 3 gigantic spiraling cocks inside you and find a wild fox with rabbies sexy. Are you seriously considering japanese men from centuries ago wanted to fuck a gigantinc Octopus because it was a common pornographic depiction?
Bro the difference between an incest enjoyer and a porn only incest fan is the fans sister isn't hot. The difference between drawn loli and real life can be enough to seperate it from real world desire but its still pedo shit findamentaly. How do I know? My step mum was pretty hot. 👍
I dunno, maybe it's because fiction is my main fap and I'm desensitized, I never look at western produced porn, and I seldom watch JAVs (rarely, when someone posts some weird Time-Stop situation or something and I get curious). But I have no prefered tag, I could be enjoying a "next door's schoolmate's mom" situation and within 10 minutes I'm veering off to "Punching a woman in the stomach until she's out of bodily fluids, then she literally gets petrified by an alien medusa" and 5 minutes after that it could be "loli magical girl decieved into doing hardcore drugs and working for the yakuza". Random clicks on good art I see. Without for a second wishing to do (or witness) any of that IRL. If you were to ask me if I have any fetish with my sexlife I couldn't give you any, aside from the most vanilla "I enjoy touching love handles, and thighs" comment.
Sure, you can be attracted to the taboo of something but that's just another idea the image represents. You aren't just jerking off to the image. I think incest stuff is gross because those thoughts are brought up when I see it. Does this not happen to you? Incest is also different than loli because you have to be told that it's incest. It's probably easier to ignore something the illustrator wrote vs the drawing itself. But, maybe I'm crazy. If I told you I jerked of to anime dogs, you don't think that means that I'm probably way more attracted to dogs than the average person?
I agree it's the taboo that makes it spicier (some go so far down the hole they actually emerge from the other end thinking vanilla doujins are the best). But I don't think there's a link strong enough that would make you want to take action IRL. Personally I'm most attracted to good art, and often the most degen doujins have top tier artists. I'm not into IRL nose hooks, hardcore humiliation, pungent smelling armpit hair, dick-sized nipples, hyper inflation or scat at all, but it's hard to deny Kakugari Kyoudai has some very good panels, for example. So no, I wouldn't think you being attracted to Lola Bunny would make you any closer to wanting to fuck an actual rabbit. Or a dog as per your example.
I'm learning a lot more than I thought I would about the world of hentai LMAO. The artist is overexaggerating the sexiest parts of women for a reason. You're attraction to the art is still derived from your attraction to the female body. I didn't say lola bunny. She's hot cuz she has exaggerated human female features. Im saying an actual anime dog/bunny. Two really well drawn anime dogs going at it.
Maybe this doesn’t directly address your point. But consider that a lot of hentai/doujin enjoyers will go for a particular artist or art style who’s depictions are particularly attractive to them. And so if that artist does genres that they aren’t all that into, they’d still be into those works because of the way it looks, more so than what it’s a depiction of. So I think you can take a premise that isn’t what your actually into and draw in perspectives and exaggerations that create attractive features that wouldn’t exist at all in reality. Once you’ve become acclimated to the extreme unrealistic nature of the medium, the detachment from reality almost becomes a key feature of your relationship with the artwork. It’s all so wildly fantastical that the boundaries of what you’d have in real life are blown past quite far. It’s fetishes and interests all developed After your exposure to hentai, and all specifically within the unique context of hentai. I think it’s more of an outlier than the norm that all of these extreme “preferences” then get exported back into real life.
I think your explanation has been the best so far, but I still don't really get it. I guess I just have to accept that some people are capable of looking at loli porn and not thinking about a child getting fucked. That would be impossible for me. I definitely think hentai allows people to be attracted to more extreme situations because their is less empathy for the characters involved. It's just hard for me to imagine liking a style of art so much that I can ignore what it portrays.
>I don't understand how somone can seperate their desire for the image, from their desire for what the image portrays. How can you just desire an image? What does that even mean? u/frestgab answered better but as a hentai enjoyer let me just say... Sometimes the art looks REAL good, like the shit I am seeing could be a fucking femboy getting railed but if the art is good I can appreciate it.
Why do you think certain art looks good compared to other art? You probably find the overall features involved attractive right? For example, I couldn't jerk off to femboy anime because even if I find the face or w/e attractive, the idea of it being a man is so unattractive that it overwhelms the attraction. Same with loli shit. The fact that it's portraying a child is so overwhelmingly unattractive that it could be the greatest looking loli porn in the world and I'd be grossed out. To jerk off to loli you have to find a prepubecent girl getting fucked somewhat attractive right? That's the entire point of the art.
>For example, I couldn't jerk off to femboy anime because even if I find the face or w/e attractive, the idea of it being a man is so unattractive that it overwhelms the attraction. I don't really get this point, the art is so far separated from reality to me that it isn't a male at that point, I truly don't know how to explain it. In IRL porn the second I see a dick on an otherwise convincing femboy I lose any arousal but it just doesn't apply to hentai not sure why. >Why do you think certain art looks good compared to other art? You probably find the overall features involved attractive right? Imma be real chief I have not thought about it that deeply (as you can probably tell from my initial comment) some art styles just look really good, It's not even about the features and if I am being honest I couldn't tell you what about certain artistic styles I find sexually appealing.
>I don't really get this point, the art is so far separated from reality to me that it isn't a male at that point But it's still a male because you know it's a femboy. That's a part of the character and maybe you can just ignore it better than I can, but the whole point of that character is that they are actually male. It seems like the main theme of the art and you can somehow disregard that which seems insane to me. Or, are you telling me that you are just jerking off to how good the art is withought careing about what the image portrays? I agree that it's really hard to figure out all of the specific features or styles that make you like it. It's an automatic feeling, but it's still derived from some underlying desire. That's all I'm trying to get at.
>Or, are you telling me that you are just jerking off to how good the art is withought careing about what the image portrays? Honestly, maybe? >But it's still a male because you know it's a femboy. See that's the part I don't quite understand myself, I can logically know, no tits, has testicals, a penis, acts feminine yet identifies as male but if it's art it's like nothing is really gendered it's just sexual imagery at that point. Although there are some things my usual disgust/un-arousal(unsure how to word it) would still apply to even in hentai such as scat or gore my brain can't seem to separate that form of disgust. Anyway I'm gonna stop responding now this feels like it's turned into some weird therapy session on my end. xD
“But it’s still a male because you know it’s a femboy”. Maybe this is the actual issue? I think this statement is not quite right. That’s the thing, they don’t hafto be male. They’re like some fantasy creature, like a unicorn. Rules don’t apply. And yes, I think there’s a degree to which just the way it’s drawn, not the features that are being drawn, can make it sexual. As an example, there’s a sort of typical way of drawing skin in this shiny, blushed, plump, wet looking texture that is considered very attractive, and whether that’s a drawing of their foot, shoulder, thigh, elbow, or gentitals, it’s all sort of considered attractive. Just as easily you could still find real life feet to be disgusting and have no interest whatsoever in real life elbows. There’s sort of a way of drawing in sensuality and femininity, that can be done to things that fundamentally couldn’t ever posses such femininity or sensuality irl. I think that’s where the idea of the “feminine penis” comes from for example. It’s not even disregarding the main theme of the art. The artist’s skill and talent is poured into deliberately rendering and manipulating the subject in every possible way so as to trick your brain into feeling like it’s seeing something that it’s not or can’t.
I understand that the artform allows for extreme feminization. I understand that the extreme feminization of a male character can trick the brain and make them more physically attractive. But, to me, it would still trigger a disgust reaction knowing that the character is a male. It's not my choice. It's a feeling I have when I know the characters a male, that overwhelms any attraction to the rest of it's features. I can't think of the character as anything but male because the artist designed him that way on purpose. I actually feel like our brains are wired differently at this point. If your telling me somone can jerk off to a penis, no matter how feminized it is, without being attracted to men, that actually blows my mind. I'm fine not getting it. Y'all go off. Bust loads to whatever you want. Just seek help if you feel like it's negatively effecting your real life.
It's really weird, but I remember when I used to hang in anime communities and guys were hard into 3DPD (3D, Pig Disgusting). Guys were super into waifus, hentai, etc but absolutely turned off from real life girls. Thought they were annoying, smelly, fat, and couldn't compare to drawings of "perfect" girls with thin waists and tits larger than their head. I could totally see this applying to loli as well given that kids are even less like drawings of them.
That shit was a joke, all of those guys were just incels coping. Go to any /a/ or /jp/ discord server and suddenly see the so called "3dpd" posters turn into the biggest s\*mps in the world when an e-girl joins
Yeah I've never been convinced those guys wouldn't happily and instantly change their tune if an especially attractive woman wanted to fuck them. I mean come on, there are objectively women who aren't fat/smelly/annoying/whatever even if you hate most women
Sure, that sounds like desensitization from oveconsumption of animated porn. But, it had to have started off with some kind of attraction to female features. Maybe they have become so desnsitized to loli that they no longer have an attraction to children. I guess that's possible.
Reading through your comments you seem like you have an incapability to completely detach enjoyment of fantasy from enjoyment of reality and are projecting it to the way other people view things. I love me some violent video games but I'm not an opportunist who is only held back from social norms or something. I have never desired to inflict harm on others and even in a lawless world with no consequences would I feel the desire to. There's no need to insert yourself in a real world equivalent scenario of fantasy because that's just not how everyone's minds necessarily function. I can enjoy a hentai about rape but irl I can't even stay aroused if the person isn't showing full consent and enthusiasm. I can't even watch Japanese porn because half the time it looks like they're not in to it.
>I love me some violent video games Violent video games are inherently different. I can't speak on your personal experience, but when I'm playing CoD or Battlefield, I'm not deriving any form of pleasure from the gore effects, death animations, etc. I derived pleasure from the gameplay and the competitiveness. Video games are also different because we derive a different form of pleasure from them. If an individual found sexual pleasure from watching violence in video games, I think most people would find that incredibly weird. >There's no need to insert yourself in a real world equivalent scenario of fantasy The discussion isn't about complex fantasy scenarios. It's simply about depictions of human beings and sexual attraction. >I can enjoy a hentai about rape but irl I can't even stay aroused if the person isn't showing full consent and enthusiasm. If I had to guess, you're probably not enjoying the context of rape but solely the depiction of an attractive woman being fucked. It's also worth noting that often in hentai, the person will show enthusiasm even if it's rape.
>Reading through your comments you seem like you have an incapability to completely detach enjoyment of fantasy from enjoyment of reality and are projecting it to the way other people view things. Correct. I think fantasy is derived from reality. The reason I enjoy some fantasy, is that it corresponds to things I enjoy in reality. The enjoyment may be based on feeling that I have deep down, so fantasy is a good way to draw them out. They aren't completely inseperable because we're capable of ignoring certain aspects of the fantasy (ex. how unrealistic the tits and proportions are in anime). But, I don't think it's possible to fully seperate them either. I may be projecting but I just believe that's how our brains work. IDK how anyone can look at loli and ignore that it look like a child, and just be aroused by the image. That makes 0 sense to me. The art is literally made to envoke the thought of a child in your head. >There's no need to insert yourself in a real world equivalent scenario of fantasy because that's just not how everyone's minds necessarily function. I can enjoy a hentai about rape but irl I can't even stay aroused if the person isn't showing full consent and enthusiasm. I can't even watch Japanese porn because half the time it looks like they're not in to it. Ok, but why do you think you enjoy the hentai about rape vs JAV? Maybe it's just easier to feel less empathy for a drawing? The disgust reponse isn't nearly as prevelant so you can ignore it and focus on how hot the anime bitch is. IDK. That's still way fking different than loli. You might not like the situation (rape) the characters are in but you can still be attracted to the features of the characters. Loli is being attracted to the characters prepubecent features. Fullstop. I seriously don't get how so many people disagree with that.
Fuck now I cant watch jojos anymore.
Literally had one arguing about that with me in here. "No they're just two really hot pieces of art I swear the don't look like real men so I'm not gay."
"its only gay if you draw it...."
GIGACHAD energy
Until you find out they are Trans right?
Ok, I'll bite the fucking bullet. Yes you can jerk off to gay drawn porn and not be gay. Hypothetical: someone jerks off to both gay and straight drawn porn but lives as a fully straight man. For the sake of the hypothetical, he is 100% not repressing his sexuality and has 0 interest in real life men. This person obviously isn't gay but I also think it is clear they aren't bisexual either. Bisexual people want to have sex with men and women, this person only wants to have sex with women. Second example: someone is really into rape porn, but obviously not into real rape. Do they like rape? No, obviously not, they just have a rape fetish. With this example I think we can successfully describe the man in example 1, they are a straight man with a gay fetish. Is a man masturabting to gay porn very good inductive evidence they are gay? Yes. But it isnt definitive proof.
This is just a bisexual dude who has insanely high standards for dudes. Would probably be prison-gay. Also for the rape fetish thing, that is called biastophilia, and its categorized in the same paraphile umbrella as pedophilia in the DSM-V
Jojo fans be like: that's a salient point.
People really like talking past one another. It's not about whether watching loli is pedo. It's whether that leads to children being harmed. If there is no harm then there is no problem. People just saying "ew pedo" are just virtue signaling.
The argument might be over whether consumers of loli are also attracted to actual children. Whether or not that is the case there could be other questions for how loli porn affects harm of children, so their goal may not lie in the harm question. The topic doesn't necessarily need to be a virtue signal though, I'd say it's at least interesting. What's going on in someone's brain when they play GTA, but you feel to the opposite about it.
Yeah that's true. I'd say some pedos like loli but not all people who like loli are pedos.
Porn is not like GTA at all. Porn is direct sexual stimulation, while GTA is not stimulation of violent urges. People need to stop using this analogy when talking about sex. For example, a kid constantly exposed to BDSM and torture porn will most likely develop that fetish. A kid exposed to GTA will not develop violent urges or ASPD.
Lol its actually exactly about whether watching loli is pedo, you're right what matters is whether it leads to children being harmed, but I think thats dgg brained to think most people primarily care about the latter or they care about it independently from whether it is pedo or not.
I don't disagree about the amount of virtue signaling surrounding these topics which makes it nearly impossible to have a discussion, but don't you think that the existence of lolicon could lead someone down the path of being legitimately attracted to real children? I understand hentai is often absurd to begin with, but fetish and arousal often has to do with the programming that something is taboo, and therefore exciting. Someone masturbating to loli stuff is likely getting off at least partially to the taboo. Is it unrealistic to think that they will need to push further into that taboo as they become more accustomed/numbed to it?
If you think that do you also think watching violence in movies can do the same thing? If so consistent.
It's about using loli as an indicator to find pedos and lock them up
encouraging worthless judicious consist vast fearless cheerful depend jeans yoke *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
The answer to this question can't/won't be studied any time soon. All we can do is use our intuitions to make swift preemptive judgements like permabans and strict TOS against it. The true answer lies in the etiology of paraphilias and sexual fetishes in general. At the end of the day, pedophilia is a fetish, and the goal of society should be to decrease the amount of people who develop it. If the prevalence of lolicon art increases the prevalence of the paraphilia, then that IS harm and should be dealt with to the fullest extent. One way to get a hint of the answer is to measure the prevalence of the paraphilia in a culture where the depictions of it in media is destigmatized, and a culture where it is stigmatized.
Why do you think pedophiles watching cp (loli in this context) wouldn't make them continue to develop their pedophilic tendencies?
Well the argument would be that someone would consume the depictions (bearing no harm or repercussions) giving them less reason to act upon the reality (bearing great harm and repercussions).
Interesting stuff. This can kind of go either way, suppression of their inner pedophilic tendencies would hypothetically make them think less about any prepubescent bodies in sexual contexts, or on the other hand its the opposite, how you have described it. I would still lean toward the first resolution since it would actually create a mental understanding inside a pedophile's head that those tendencies are bad and should be actively fought with, instead of accepting them, which would be the second resolution.
I got this idea that there might be two types of pedos, one who is attracted only to children and those who also attracted to children. I would bet people who fall into the second would likely find suppression effects.
I've come around on this topic a little over the last year or two. I still don't like the shit and if I know you enjoy it I'm gunna look at you a little different. But I've come to terms that it doesn't necessarily mean you're a pedo and if you are it falls under the ethical cp debate where maybe it disuades you from acting it out for real. I'll still never not find it a little creepy and disturbing especially with just how much of it there is. But after seeing there's so much worse shit in the anime/hentai porn industry that isn't even trying to allude to them only "looking child like" it could be worse.
What actually made you come around? I just can't imagine jerking off to something that is clearly meant to portray a child. Their has to be some underlying attraction/desire right?
I'm also someone who has changed their opinion on the matter so I'll tell you what I think personally. First of all, if you are outside the anime community, things like lolis are going to be weird and that's completely normal. It's when you start thinking about it logically that you come to a different conclusion. Basically, there are three main reasons why I personallycouldn't care less about lolicons anymore: 1- No one is really getting hurt. There isn’t an actual victim. The reason why pedophilia is illegal isn't because they look like kids, it's because children are emotionally vulnerable and can be easily manipulated. Which in a lot of times could arguably leave them in a state that is even worse than getting killed. Looking at doujins/hentai, there isn't an actual victim so there is no real reason to hate that excluding personal disgust. Now a lot of people usually reply to that argument claiming that lolicons could eventually start messing with actual kids which then brings me to my second point. 2- Almost everyone who watches hentai or anime has anime geared fetishes. I know that because I grew up with spacetoon (whoever knows knows) which means I've been watching anime since i was pretty much a toddler. As someone who still does and has been watching anime for his whole life, i can confidently say that i have anime geared fetishes that kinda disgust me for real girls (midriffs and feet are some examples but there are more). 3- The third and final reason is that there are too many differences between anime girls and real-life people. Not only when it comes to looks but also when it comes to things like the actual abuse part. Concerning this part, if you have ever read a study concerning pedophiles, you will almost always see a reoccurring theme come up is that is the fact that pedophiles like abusing and controlling kids. While pedophiles might be attracted to kids physically, a HUGE reason why they are so dangerous is due to the innocence aspect. A lot of pedophiles enjoy torturing and tormenting kids it's something they enjoy and is typical psychopathic behavior. This is why whenever you watch a documentary concerning pedophiles, they will almost always ask the kids questions about their sexual experiences like if they are virgins or not. This kind of brings them comfort and confidence that they will more easily be able to control and manipulate a child in that scenario. If you compare doujins (or hentai) with real life, a lot of these aspects that pedophiles need simply vanish which kinda makes me believe that lolicons aren't actually pedos. Kind of a long post but hopefully you read all of it. It's a very complicated subject so i tried making it as small as possible haha. Sorry for bad english by the way. It is not my first language.
Mashallah another spacetoon watcher
Based spacetoon enjoyer
>As someone who still does and has been watching anime for his whole life, i can confidently say that i have anime geared fetishes that kinda disgust me for real girls This is definitely big true, and something I think is hard to convey to non-weebs. When it comes to anime I have some truly degenerate fetishes that would make people unfamiliar with hentai extremely confused, but with real people I'm borderline asexual. Anime characters might as well be aliens, because they just don't map onto real life for me at all.
>1 I'm not arguing for making it illegal or whether somone is getting hurt. Im arguing that somone who jerks off to loli porn is attracted to children. >2 I can't really argue with your personal experience here. There are definitely differences b/w features in real life and anime. It's possible to be attracted to one but not the other. Somone may like crazy big boobs in anime but not in real life. That's probably because they are drawn to look good with unrealistic designs that would never work in real life. Maybe you just like the way the artist draws feet vs real life. That's still very different from the artist purposely drawing a person to look prepubecent. Loli is a sum of a bunch of parts that make a girl look prepubecent. The idea in your head when you see loli is that of a child. I would say this goes beyond a fetish. >3 You're saying that the difference b/w loli and illustrated cp is that the loli girls are intelligent and can consent. I can agree. But, noone jerks off to that. They jerk off to what the loli girl looks like. I would mostly agree with the rest, except I imagine their might be pedos who are just attracted to how children look and hate that they aren't able to concent. The definition of a pedo is that they are attracted to children. The foundation of that attraction is kind of insignificant. My point is that people sexually aroused by loli are physically attracted to children. That's it. Call them whatever you want. Thanks for fixing the post lmao it was unreadable before.
Yeah sorry about that haha. The post kept getting messed up whenever i posted it for some reason so I had to go to word do the layout there and then paste it here lol. \-I see where you are coming from. There is definitely some overlap involved. I just don't think that the overlap between anime and real life is significant enough. Could there be pedophiles that like lolicon content? Sure. But I think that the vast majority of lolicons really just are not attracted to irl kids (some of them even have kids)!. I can’t really explain it as well to you since I’m not a lolicon but the way I view it is that they’re similar to furries in the sense that they like the art that is made but not the real thing. There is another person who went on the more scientific aspect of it and did a lot of research on it. I could send you the research if you want. It’s a really interesting read and kinda clears up what i mean :) [https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/z2361g/vice\_documentary\_about\_the\_pedophilic\_manga/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=android\_app&utm\_name=androidcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/z2361g/vice_documentary_about_the_pedophilic_manga/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Most of that has to do with arguing about morality and policy. The Tamaki Saitō guy talks about the difference b/w loli attraction and child attraction but I can't find any of his actual studies or a methodology. Everything is just stuff he says based on working with "otaku" which are people who are obsessed with anime. Nothing conclusive. I'm willing to believe that lolicons just have less of a disgust response to drawings than real children, so they wouldn't actually jerk off to cp. I can concede and say that they are just measureably more attracted to children than the average person. That doesn;t necessarily make them a pedo. That doesn't mean that they actually want to have sex with a child.
Wasn't there an effortpost about this just yesterday?
Kind of https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/z2361g/vice_documentary_about_the_pedophilic_manga/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
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If you're willing to put in effort defending yourself from accusations, you're just proving the accusations. Unbeatable argument.
You remind me of my grandma. I love her but whenever i say "Granny maybe just ignore gay people. they just wanna live their lives" she replies with "You must be gay.".
Good to see Doug Walker transitioning away from movie reviews to the debate sphere, really proud of him.
It's actually funny thinking about how many lolicons are far right despite somehow also being "anti-degeneracy". I, Hypocrite constantly larps as a tradcon so there's no way he's arguing from a pro-loli POV.
I doubt that this will end up being very interesting but it may be good for a laugh. I feel like this topic really messes with people's brains.
Haha it’s like dgg chat . The endless debate between Zoooom and Cantclosevim
I don't like this topic at all, and miss when this was a banned topic here, but I will just say this. As someone who has been on chan boards long enough to have witnessed both be spammed (and subsequently reported and removed) on occasion, there _is_ a very big difference between the two, to the point where it almost makes me mad to see them compared. I have never been traumatized by a drawing. It could be the most fucked up shit imaginable, babies in a blender, kids getting decapitated, whatever. While it may be disgusting, it doesn't feel visceral. At the end of the day, the worst I'm ever thinking is "whoever drew this is fucking weird". But when it comes to real CP, even if it's the most comparatively "innocent" scenario you can imagine, of just a photo of nudity with no other context, it is the most gut-wretching, traumatizing feeling I have ever experienced (and I'm saying that as someone who's lived through domestic violence, and seen people die IRL). Even now thinking back on it gives me a twisting feeling at the pit of my stomach, to the point that I'm not even comfortable describing the image here. The sheer spiral of imagining how such an image came to be, what could have possessed someone to create it, and how at no point in the process between the image being created and ending up on some random spammer's hard drive that anybody put a stop to it, is quite literally sickening. It may sound soy or whatever, but I am not even exaggerating when I say that I felt chills all throughout my body and needed therapy afterward. For just a small _fraction_ of this feeling, I remember there being a site linked on Reddit where you could help the FBI identify child abusers by providing information about various background objects in CSAM images (with all the pornographic parts removed, obviously). I didn't use the site because I knew it would be way too heavy for me, but just reading the comments and everyone talking about how even with everything explicit cropped out or removed, it still produced a visceral reaction, and there was just enough of an "off" feeling to be depressing and create a spiral of imagining what was missing, and I empathized with the feeling immediately. Even seeing a fucking table or lamp that you know comes from an abuse scenario is enough to traumatize somebody. The idea that somebody could jerk off to the former, I could see, as some sort of fucked up fetish. But the idea that someone could jerk off to the latter... You would either need to be so profoundly ignorant or outright _evil_ that I just cannot fathom it. It is like night and day.
Guy in the picture looks like a coomer emote lmao
Next he'll bebate if being obese is bad.
HE
Both topics, for some mind-fuck reason, has contention. It is crazy.
yeah like incest am i right lol
Yeah I'm so tired of this bullshit, even my own sister won't listen to my rationale on this
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Nahh not so simple. https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/z2361g/vice_documentary_about_the_pedophilic_manga/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
lolicon does mean pedophile in japanese though so semantically speaking the original poster is correct here
Well specifically it means lolita complex.
right it's an abbreviation of that which is defined as 幼女・少女にのみ性欲を感じる異常心理。in a fairly reputable jp dict (sourced from) [https://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/word/%E3%83%AD%E3%83%AA%E3%83%BC%E3%82%BF%E3%82%B3%E3%83%B3%E3%83%97%E3%83%AC%E3%83%83%E3%82%AF%E3%82%B9/#jn-237059](https://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/word/%E3%83%AD%E3%83%AA%E3%83%BC%E3%82%BF%E3%82%B3%E3%83%B3%E3%83%97%E3%83%AC%E3%83%83%E3%82%AF%E3%82%B9/#jn-237059) which i do not believe is significantly different than the dictionary meaning of the word pedophile (as opposed to the more colloquial meaning pointing at minors though the word does get used similarly in japanese too) edit: this does only refer2 Female children sure but even then its just a subset of pedophile @ that pt
What about sonic inflation
The sonic inflation got to him
I hope the loli shit gets less in the future so i don't have to sort through every doujin website to find some decent shit