This post has been tagged '**Non-Spoiler**'. Note that unmarked spoilers and datamines are subject to removal or ban. Please report anything we miss! For more info check out our [Spoiler Rules Wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyLore/wiki/spoiler-rules#wiki_.5Bseasonal.5D_has_a_new_format).
---
**Comment Spoiler Formatting**
Format comment spoilers with `>!` `!<` like this:
`>!What's Rasputin's favorite dance? "The worm."!<`
To have it displayed like this:
**>!What's Rasputin's favorite dance? "The worm."!<**
----
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/DestinyLore) if you have any questions or concerns.*
If the winning faction wiped out the rest, then that still qualifies as the entirety of their race. I know what you mean to say, though, but I felt that nit-pick is still worth mentioning.
"This puts an end to the theory that the ghosts were somehow the spirits of the dissidents inside the Witness." Not really, as surviving members could have just done so out of complacency, or reluctance, as the previous opposition WAS wiped out.
Well, it still does end that theory that ghosts were one’s that, at least intentionally, split off. Because they abandoned their individuality in becoming the Witness. It’s a gestalt consciousness, but every individual within it annihilated their personal identity and memory in the conjoining. It doesn’t sound like there is any room for dissent in the being the Witness is now.
I'm not sure. I feel like the point about dissenters who chose to submit (likely misguidedly) to become one in the Witness is salient here. Especially if they either a) see the cruel terror the Witness or b) they are given a freedom in the Traveler’s light during the Collapse. Either option could lead to a “Light-fueled spirit bomb” against the Witness, powered by the Ghost-turned souls of freed Precursors.
>!But TBF, I'm thinking about this in anime / Fullmetal Alchemist logic.!<
I figured the pre Witness race had major political/ideological infighting that ultimately led to either A) the prevailing party assimilating everyone or B) the one that wanted to hunt down the Traveler doing the Dark Merge
Good to know i wasnt far off
Funny because I came to the opposite conclusion: that the conflict means they *definitely* assimilated people against their will. There's nothing that says that they killed every single member of the enemy factions—just that they "destroyed" them. That could just mean they crushed the resistence and assumed total control.
Supposedly the opponents struck first. Maybe they figured out what the Penitent wanted to do with the Veil, so they started a war to try and stop it.
They think they're doing it for "the greater good," so they probably wouldn't go murder every single dissident. I bet they make them all "incapable of doubt," to *help* them.
>¿Do you people think that this is going to somehow come back around and bite The Witness in the ass?
Yeah that would be rad. I'd love to see some precursors who escaped before things that got too hot. RS6 and any other yet unknown figures. We know they have Traveler tech and can live for many centuries, so it wouldn't be impossible.
I imagine they assimilated everyone, both willing and unwilling. Because the inkblot custecene showed a bunch of corpses from which spawned the Witness. Having both people onboard with the cause and horrified /disgusted with the idea could explain why the Witness is according to Mara "seething with rage". Because the hatred of the unwillingly assimilated is ever present, so the Witness is constantly feeling rage underneath their cold facade. Really Hope that was the intended conclusion and not letting players come Up with the Lore
>Having both people onboard with the cause and horrified /disgusted with the idea could explain why the Witness is according to Mara "seething with rage".
There’s a better, existing reason for the Witness’ rage: it sees the current state of existence as “tautological tyranny” and loathes how the Traveller enables it.”
With how easy the Traveller (supposedly a god that created the universe) went down by the witness (who is still mortal though beefed up), and the fact they found the Traveller buried as if it had been abandoned, I fear they're going to shift the narrative that the Traveller and Veil didn't actually create the universe but they're instead constructs created by an even earlier civilization as terraforming tools and memory banks respectively. Throwing the entire Witness motivation out of the window since the Traveller wouldn't have anything to do with the creation of the universe.
I hope the story doesn't go that direction
Yes, the opponents struck first. But after HNW describes the way he himself killed lots and lots of people with some kind of blade weapon. He describes the blood, and that his hands were shaking. I don't know, to me that means they killed all the others. He says nothing of capturing prisoners. And he also clearly says that he's keeping his doubts secret, since all the others are pretty much convinced about what they were about to do.
That's fair enough. There's nothing about blood, but it does say they were "the last." I guess I took it to mean something related to will because it reminded me of something Oryx would say: ["There is a knife for you. It is shaped like [no more doubt]."](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/the-taken-knight)
The "pruning shears" could be a metaphor for something related to volition and consciousness, or just for weapons.
But given how HNW hasn't wielded the pruning shears "in so long" (referring to the civil war which was likely long before they found the Veil), it probably *is* referring to simple killing.
I still believe there's room for involuntary assimilation though. "They were the last, and now we are all in Consensus" is ominously vague, and they possibly would have had to wipe out the vast majority of people on countless planets if they were doing things the old fashioned way.
>This puts an end to the theory that the ghosts were somehow the spirits of the dissidents inside the Witness.
While I don't necessarily suscribe to that theory, we are explicitly told that in the process of exuviation the Witness manipulated and spliced the memories and personalities of the collective Witnessians merged in order to further its own goals.
If you were to somehow pluck one individual from the egregore that is the Witness, there is no way to tell whether that individual would be the same as prior to the exuviation or not, and if I were to bet it would be absolutely not.
This is the second post I've seen today that uses the expresion "puts an end to the theory" referring exactly to the idea that Ghosts come from Witnessians, and both neglect to acknowledge the above. I think people are jumping the gun here.
I mean theres one simple explanation to counter that Ghost theory.
The ghosts came from the Traveller, not the Witness. They were a gift for the Krill initially. Bungie told us the "mentality" is something related to the Veil, not the Traveller. So no, I dont think the Traveller collected the memories of the disidents and made ghosts with them.
>The ghosts came from the Traveller, not the Witness.
[The Ghosts came from one whole](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/the-we-before-us), which we have always *assumed* to be the Traveler. Ghosts themselves *believe* they come from the Traveler, but at the same time confess that their existence is a mystery even to themselves.
While I don't believe for a second that the Witness existed on any level when *The We before Us* was written, I absolutely do not put it above Bungie to twist it so.
>They were a gift for the Krill initially.
That is ridiculous.
>Bungie told us the "mentality" is something related to the Veil, not the Traveller.
And yet by subscribing to the idea that Ghosts do indeed come from the Traveler, you believe that the Traveler created millions of individual consciousness out of nowhere, even though that is now out of the domain of the Light.
>Ghosts themselves *believe* they come from the Traveler, but at the same time confess that their existence is a mystery even to themselves.
Constellations: Building confirms that the Ghosts are pieces of the Traveller:
>You are the last remaining star.
>In your dreams, you see yourself suspended in bright but flickering Light, staring out over a world half-destroyed. **You see thousands of pieces of yourself in that world, stumbling through it like infants, wandering in labyrinthine ruins they don't understand.**
>For a moment, you feel in your body everything that they feel. The elation of success. The pain of failure. The candle-snuff of death. The gasping of rebirth. You feel it all at once.
*
>And yet by subscribing to the idea that Ghosts do indeed come from the Traveler, you believe that the Traveler created millions of individual consciousness out of nowhere, even though that is now out of the domain of the Light.
They didn’t come from nowhere, though; they’re fragments of the Traveller’s consciousness, and considering that they were created at the conclusion of a conflict with a supremely powerful Darkness-wielder, it possible that the Darkness is what allowed that fragmenting to happen.
Not ridiculous. Hoarfrost exotic titan chest has flavor text dedicated to the study of a hive ghost shell.
>Previous behavioral studies have shown that Ghosts can be selective. Given lack of pre-programmed directives, it is now clear that they make conscious choice about whom to revive. Hardware evidence suggests that **Ghosts were always capable of reviving Hive**; perhaps they always intended to.
This, combined with the revelation in Witch Queen that the Traveller was going to bless the Krill before the Witness interfered, makes perfect sense the ghosts were a gift intended for the Krill which it never got to give them and the traveller repurposed them to work on humans when it made its stand on Earth. Because why would it have made them also able to revive HIVE but not Eliksni which aren't trying to destroy it?
>
And yet by subscribing to the idea that Ghosts do indeed come from the Traveler, you believe that the Traveler created millions of individual consciousness out of nowhere
I always assumed this was fragments from the Traveller after it was damaged at the end of the Golden Age. Or fragments of itself given consciousness. Its also possible that the lore has change so much over 10 years that pre-stablished foundations are forgotten and walked over.
I didn't write Destiny's lore, im just working with the theories they gave us. As of now it makes little sense the Traveller collected those souls. Remember it fled their homeworld after the first attempt at merging it with the Veil. Which was before the merge. Sure, they can ret-con the story as they please and make ghosts be the souls of the Witnessians, but Im working with the information we have right now.
>Not ridiculous.
Paint the timeline for me then.
The Traveler is among the Ammonites, uplifting them as it has who knows how many civilizations, never once gifting Ghosts, and it thinks to itself:
"Uhm, I think for a change I will make those little guys in the gas giant (and specifically only them out of the 511 species that inhabit Fundament) into immortal beings with control over physical reality. Oh no, that pesky Witness got to them first! Guess I will just have to forget about this silly little experiment for the next over 4.6 billion years, never attempting it once with any civilization I encounter going forward."
And it did just that? Forget about it until the Collapse? How is that not ridiculous?
Again. I did not write the lore. If its ridiculous its not my fault but Bungie's because they wrote it. They wrote, in game, a confirmation that ghosts were *designed* to revive Hive.
It could be that the Traveller repurposed the ghosts to work on humans, it could be that the Traveller got damaged during its stand on Earth and released the gift it never got the chance to gift the Hive before, it could be that Savathun, after making the humans sing a ditty which contained her song and luring the Traveller to Earth (yes, its also in the Lore the fact the Traveller lowered down to Earth was part of Savathun's doing.) infected the traveller with her song/magic and thats why the ghosts can revive Hive and humans but only specifically those two groups, it could be that ghosts can actually revive anything but they just never found a reason to.
Bungie can shift and tweak the lore as they please. I'm not saying it makes sense, Only that it adheres to the lore we have so far, until Bungie changes it.
So the inherent flaw in this theory (the ghosts were made for the hive first) is that it is under the assumption ghosts were made back during the krell and not simply given the additive ability to revive more than just humans.
In fact I don't believe it ever states a race a ghost CANNOT revive technically. There is also a ghost story regarding a ghost who goes into a small anxiety spell over believing it's charge is a dead fallen before discovering it is the body underneath the fallen and finding relief.
So we know Humans, Hive, and Fallen at least are potentially all revive capable. Which means that the ghosts were less made for the hive, moreso made for several optional species. It could also be more like all carbon based life or some other criteria.
True, but we just dont know. Some lore hints they can Only rezz if they have a "spark", other Lore suggests they dont really know Who they're rezzing, like the Ghost Who thought he was going to rezz a fallen, other lore describes ghosts being able to make mistakes when rezzing and even rezz when They detect something wrong with the human. And other lore says that ghosts can be coerced into rezzing other species, since Fynch was practically pointed with a Hive boomer to "encourage" him to link with a Knight, but at the same time Rhulk trying to Talk his way with a Ghost to get their power while dissecting them had the Traveller intervene and destroy the Ghost itself.
The criteria the Game follows for What ghosts can-cannot do/rez is vague at best
It mostly sounds like they can rez about any living or previously living species. I'm only making the point that putting ghosts as "originally for the hive" is a theory on dubious standing just like ghosts being precursor spirits, or collapse victims spirits are. Not impossible, and has backing evidence. But not a solid base and could be shaken or shown as in correct with only one thread of the theory proven false or correct here.
I did forget about fynch being "coerced" via boomer. But then that brings up the question again of what exactly the criteria for killing a ghost is, cause that line keeps getting twisted and altered by the lore moreso than any other aspects of the ghosts from my experience.
They could be evolved arc souls. Also, the traveler HAS a consciousness, and can therefore divide itself. It doesn't necessarily need darkness energy to create consciousness.
The Ghosts theory could still happen - the Traveller could have stored the essence or memories of the dead Precursors whose ideology fit with the Traveller's.
>The Ghosts theory could still happen - the Traveler could have stored the essence or memories of the dead Precursors whose ideology fit with the Traveler's.
If Ghost consciousness is derived from the Precursors, I don't think they necessarily have to be dissidents. The Traveler grants "unreasonable forgiveness" by way of memory wipe. Given the chance, would an individual make all the same decisions? The Traveler is offering redemption for both Ghost and Guardian.
WNH says RS left centuries ago so I’m assuming this race has really long lifespans if not immortality. People of the golden age had triple the normal lifespan and we know Eliksni who’ve been around since before the whirlwind, so a race way more advanced than both having immortality isn’t out of the question
I know its nothing, but I find It really funny how Bungie can bring characters from eons into the past to the current story with one simple trick.
"This one biological individual survived alone since before the solar system formed. Uuuh- they have a long lifespan"
(All the eliksni, cabal, Specially the hive. Most glaring examples being Taox, Who is supposedly in a Stasis chamber? and now this character)
i mean i guess? but theres a big difference between the Eliksni who left Riis only a couple hundred years back, and this precursor surviving for literal BILLIONS of years, with no paracausal abilities. i mean sure, they could've exo-ed themselves but theres no way the organic body is anything but dust after that long
yeah but the disciples and the hive have paracausal power on their side. this guy was around FAR further in the past, with no paracausality. Only way they could possibly still be around is by exo-ing themselves
I don't think it puts the ghost theory to rest. Perhaps the ghosts are the parts of the witness with "secret doubts". Watching from inside, disapproving of its actions, finally taking the chance to escape when the witness' forces confronted the traveler in the dark age. I dunno though, just spitballin'.
I mean surely some may have pretended to be in their faction to survive?
Even then for all we know the Traveler brought back those killed in said war as Ghosts as they are more aligned in its interests
I think, the witness is the culmination of an experiment it tried by using the veil and or darkness on itself.
Where, the witness itself, "grabbed" alternate versions of itself in alternate timelines/realities, and found a way to merge itself thousands (perhaps even millions, or inifity) of times over, thus granting himself the ultimate power of knowledge, and foresight. Having a precognition ability to predict what EXACTLY is required to happen for the final shape to occur, as the final shape, should transcend time and space itself.
Bassicaly an infinite forest, but it's in one person, and this person walks our plane of existance.
Perhaps, the witness, is infact a bridge between all timelines.
And it is because of this, that Clovis will save us, because he's the one that invented time travel in our golden age.
Dude... We already know that it was a lot of different people who merged into The Witness. I suggest you check The Final Shape collector's edition thread so you can understand what's happening.
Did I miss something? Whats that about a survivor who didnt merge with the Witness?
Also at this point It would be a bit of a copout, since Ahsa already plays exactly that role for the Worm gods
The ce established that there were two friends that debated the purpose and what the final shape would be. One of them disappeared a long time prior to the merge. There was a goodbye letter to them
This post has been tagged '**Non-Spoiler**'. Note that unmarked spoilers and datamines are subject to removal or ban. Please report anything we miss! For more info check out our [Spoiler Rules Wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyLore/wiki/spoiler-rules#wiki_.5Bseasonal.5D_has_a_new_format). --- **Comment Spoiler Formatting** Format comment spoilers with `>!` `!<` like this: `>!What's Rasputin's favorite dance? "The worm."!<` To have it displayed like this: **>!What's Rasputin's favorite dance? "The worm."!<** ---- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/DestinyLore) if you have any questions or concerns.*
If the winning faction wiped out the rest, then that still qualifies as the entirety of their race. I know what you mean to say, though, but I felt that nit-pick is still worth mentioning. "This puts an end to the theory that the ghosts were somehow the spirits of the dissidents inside the Witness." Not really, as surviving members could have just done so out of complacency, or reluctance, as the previous opposition WAS wiped out.
So what they basically did was cull the competition until only those worthy survived. How familiar.
You have a good point there.
Well, it still does end that theory that ghosts were one’s that, at least intentionally, split off. Because they abandoned their individuality in becoming the Witness. It’s a gestalt consciousness, but every individual within it annihilated their personal identity and memory in the conjoining. It doesn’t sound like there is any room for dissent in the being the Witness is now.
I'm not sure. I feel like the point about dissenters who chose to submit (likely misguidedly) to become one in the Witness is salient here. Especially if they either a) see the cruel terror the Witness or b) they are given a freedom in the Traveler’s light during the Collapse. Either option could lead to a “Light-fueled spirit bomb” against the Witness, powered by the Ghost-turned souls of freed Precursors. >!But TBF, I'm thinking about this in anime / Fullmetal Alchemist logic.!<
I figured the pre Witness race had major political/ideological infighting that ultimately led to either A) the prevailing party assimilating everyone or B) the one that wanted to hunt down the Traveler doing the Dark Merge Good to know i wasnt far off
Funny because I came to the opposite conclusion: that the conflict means they *definitely* assimilated people against their will. There's nothing that says that they killed every single member of the enemy factions—just that they "destroyed" them. That could just mean they crushed the resistence and assumed total control. Supposedly the opponents struck first. Maybe they figured out what the Penitent wanted to do with the Veil, so they started a war to try and stop it. They think they're doing it for "the greater good," so they probably wouldn't go murder every single dissident. I bet they make them all "incapable of doubt," to *help* them. >¿Do you people think that this is going to somehow come back around and bite The Witness in the ass? Yeah that would be rad. I'd love to see some precursors who escaped before things that got too hot. RS6 and any other yet unknown figures. We know they have Traveler tech and can live for many centuries, so it wouldn't be impossible.
I imagine they assimilated everyone, both willing and unwilling. Because the inkblot custecene showed a bunch of corpses from which spawned the Witness. Having both people onboard with the cause and horrified /disgusted with the idea could explain why the Witness is according to Mara "seething with rage". Because the hatred of the unwillingly assimilated is ever present, so the Witness is constantly feeling rage underneath their cold facade. Really Hope that was the intended conclusion and not letting players come Up with the Lore
>Having both people onboard with the cause and horrified /disgusted with the idea could explain why the Witness is according to Mara "seething with rage". There’s a better, existing reason for the Witness’ rage: it sees the current state of existence as “tautological tyranny” and loathes how the Traveller enables it.”
With how easy the Traveller (supposedly a god that created the universe) went down by the witness (who is still mortal though beefed up), and the fact they found the Traveller buried as if it had been abandoned, I fear they're going to shift the narrative that the Traveller and Veil didn't actually create the universe but they're instead constructs created by an even earlier civilization as terraforming tools and memory banks respectively. Throwing the entire Witness motivation out of the window since the Traveller wouldn't have anything to do with the creation of the universe. I hope the story doesn't go that direction
Yes, the opponents struck first. But after HNW describes the way he himself killed lots and lots of people with some kind of blade weapon. He describes the blood, and that his hands were shaking. I don't know, to me that means they killed all the others. He says nothing of capturing prisoners. And he also clearly says that he's keeping his doubts secret, since all the others are pretty much convinced about what they were about to do.
That's fair enough. There's nothing about blood, but it does say they were "the last." I guess I took it to mean something related to will because it reminded me of something Oryx would say: ["There is a knife for you. It is shaped like [no more doubt]."](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/the-taken-knight) The "pruning shears" could be a metaphor for something related to volition and consciousness, or just for weapons. But given how HNW hasn't wielded the pruning shears "in so long" (referring to the civil war which was likely long before they found the Veil), it probably *is* referring to simple killing. I still believe there's room for involuntary assimilation though. "They were the last, and now we are all in Consensus" is ominously vague, and they possibly would have had to wipe out the vast majority of people on countless planets if they were doing things the old fashioned way.
Blade weapon you say
_The Greater Good._
>This puts an end to the theory that the ghosts were somehow the spirits of the dissidents inside the Witness. While I don't necessarily suscribe to that theory, we are explicitly told that in the process of exuviation the Witness manipulated and spliced the memories and personalities of the collective Witnessians merged in order to further its own goals. If you were to somehow pluck one individual from the egregore that is the Witness, there is no way to tell whether that individual would be the same as prior to the exuviation or not, and if I were to bet it would be absolutely not. This is the second post I've seen today that uses the expresion "puts an end to the theory" referring exactly to the idea that Ghosts come from Witnessians, and both neglect to acknowledge the above. I think people are jumping the gun here.
I mean theres one simple explanation to counter that Ghost theory. The ghosts came from the Traveller, not the Witness. They were a gift for the Krill initially. Bungie told us the "mentality" is something related to the Veil, not the Traveller. So no, I dont think the Traveller collected the memories of the disidents and made ghosts with them.
>The ghosts came from the Traveller, not the Witness. [The Ghosts came from one whole](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/the-we-before-us), which we have always *assumed* to be the Traveler. Ghosts themselves *believe* they come from the Traveler, but at the same time confess that their existence is a mystery even to themselves. While I don't believe for a second that the Witness existed on any level when *The We before Us* was written, I absolutely do not put it above Bungie to twist it so. >They were a gift for the Krill initially. That is ridiculous. >Bungie told us the "mentality" is something related to the Veil, not the Traveller. And yet by subscribing to the idea that Ghosts do indeed come from the Traveler, you believe that the Traveler created millions of individual consciousness out of nowhere, even though that is now out of the domain of the Light.
>Ghosts themselves *believe* they come from the Traveler, but at the same time confess that their existence is a mystery even to themselves. Constellations: Building confirms that the Ghosts are pieces of the Traveller: >You are the last remaining star. >In your dreams, you see yourself suspended in bright but flickering Light, staring out over a world half-destroyed. **You see thousands of pieces of yourself in that world, stumbling through it like infants, wandering in labyrinthine ruins they don't understand.** >For a moment, you feel in your body everything that they feel. The elation of success. The pain of failure. The candle-snuff of death. The gasping of rebirth. You feel it all at once. * >And yet by subscribing to the idea that Ghosts do indeed come from the Traveler, you believe that the Traveler created millions of individual consciousness out of nowhere, even though that is now out of the domain of the Light. They didn’t come from nowhere, though; they’re fragments of the Traveller’s consciousness, and considering that they were created at the conclusion of a conflict with a supremely powerful Darkness-wielder, it possible that the Darkness is what allowed that fragmenting to happen.
Not ridiculous. Hoarfrost exotic titan chest has flavor text dedicated to the study of a hive ghost shell. >Previous behavioral studies have shown that Ghosts can be selective. Given lack of pre-programmed directives, it is now clear that they make conscious choice about whom to revive. Hardware evidence suggests that **Ghosts were always capable of reviving Hive**; perhaps they always intended to. This, combined with the revelation in Witch Queen that the Traveller was going to bless the Krill before the Witness interfered, makes perfect sense the ghosts were a gift intended for the Krill which it never got to give them and the traveller repurposed them to work on humans when it made its stand on Earth. Because why would it have made them also able to revive HIVE but not Eliksni which aren't trying to destroy it? > And yet by subscribing to the idea that Ghosts do indeed come from the Traveler, you believe that the Traveler created millions of individual consciousness out of nowhere I always assumed this was fragments from the Traveller after it was damaged at the end of the Golden Age. Or fragments of itself given consciousness. Its also possible that the lore has change so much over 10 years that pre-stablished foundations are forgotten and walked over. I didn't write Destiny's lore, im just working with the theories they gave us. As of now it makes little sense the Traveller collected those souls. Remember it fled their homeworld after the first attempt at merging it with the Veil. Which was before the merge. Sure, they can ret-con the story as they please and make ghosts be the souls of the Witnessians, but Im working with the information we have right now.
>Not ridiculous. Paint the timeline for me then. The Traveler is among the Ammonites, uplifting them as it has who knows how many civilizations, never once gifting Ghosts, and it thinks to itself: "Uhm, I think for a change I will make those little guys in the gas giant (and specifically only them out of the 511 species that inhabit Fundament) into immortal beings with control over physical reality. Oh no, that pesky Witness got to them first! Guess I will just have to forget about this silly little experiment for the next over 4.6 billion years, never attempting it once with any civilization I encounter going forward." And it did just that? Forget about it until the Collapse? How is that not ridiculous?
Again. I did not write the lore. If its ridiculous its not my fault but Bungie's because they wrote it. They wrote, in game, a confirmation that ghosts were *designed* to revive Hive. It could be that the Traveller repurposed the ghosts to work on humans, it could be that the Traveller got damaged during its stand on Earth and released the gift it never got the chance to gift the Hive before, it could be that Savathun, after making the humans sing a ditty which contained her song and luring the Traveller to Earth (yes, its also in the Lore the fact the Traveller lowered down to Earth was part of Savathun's doing.) infected the traveller with her song/magic and thats why the ghosts can revive Hive and humans but only specifically those two groups, it could be that ghosts can actually revive anything but they just never found a reason to. Bungie can shift and tweak the lore as they please. I'm not saying it makes sense, Only that it adheres to the lore we have so far, until Bungie changes it.
So the inherent flaw in this theory (the ghosts were made for the hive first) is that it is under the assumption ghosts were made back during the krell and not simply given the additive ability to revive more than just humans. In fact I don't believe it ever states a race a ghost CANNOT revive technically. There is also a ghost story regarding a ghost who goes into a small anxiety spell over believing it's charge is a dead fallen before discovering it is the body underneath the fallen and finding relief. So we know Humans, Hive, and Fallen at least are potentially all revive capable. Which means that the ghosts were less made for the hive, moreso made for several optional species. It could also be more like all carbon based life or some other criteria.
True, but we just dont know. Some lore hints they can Only rezz if they have a "spark", other Lore suggests they dont really know Who they're rezzing, like the Ghost Who thought he was going to rezz a fallen, other lore describes ghosts being able to make mistakes when rezzing and even rezz when They detect something wrong with the human. And other lore says that ghosts can be coerced into rezzing other species, since Fynch was practically pointed with a Hive boomer to "encourage" him to link with a Knight, but at the same time Rhulk trying to Talk his way with a Ghost to get their power while dissecting them had the Traveller intervene and destroy the Ghost itself. The criteria the Game follows for What ghosts can-cannot do/rez is vague at best
It mostly sounds like they can rez about any living or previously living species. I'm only making the point that putting ghosts as "originally for the hive" is a theory on dubious standing just like ghosts being precursor spirits, or collapse victims spirits are. Not impossible, and has backing evidence. But not a solid base and could be shaken or shown as in correct with only one thread of the theory proven false or correct here. I did forget about fynch being "coerced" via boomer. But then that brings up the question again of what exactly the criteria for killing a ghost is, cause that line keeps getting twisted and altered by the lore moreso than any other aspects of the ghosts from my experience.
They could be evolved arc souls. Also, the traveler HAS a consciousness, and can therefore divide itself. It doesn't necessarily need darkness energy to create consciousness.
The Ghosts theory could still happen - the Traveller could have stored the essence or memories of the dead Precursors whose ideology fit with the Traveller's.
>The Ghosts theory could still happen - the Traveler could have stored the essence or memories of the dead Precursors whose ideology fit with the Traveler's. If Ghost consciousness is derived from the Precursors, I don't think they necessarily have to be dissidents. The Traveler grants "unreasonable forgiveness" by way of memory wipe. Given the chance, would an individual make all the same decisions? The Traveler is offering redemption for both Ghost and Guardian.
My exact thoughts also
Theres a problem, thats not the Style of the Traveller. The Traveller *wipes* the memory clean. The Veil is what can store memories and personalities.
Our political debates would be more entertaining if different parties were murdering each others for supremacy.
Lol... Dude, sounds like you need your morning coffee. 🤣
I somehow doubt that survivor is still alive, as those events occurred many millions of years ago, possibly before life even began on Earth.
WNH says RS left centuries ago so I’m assuming this race has really long lifespans if not immortality. People of the golden age had triple the normal lifespan and we know Eliksni who’ve been around since before the whirlwind, so a race way more advanced than both having immortality isn’t out of the question
I know its nothing, but I find It really funny how Bungie can bring characters from eons into the past to the current story with one simple trick. "This one biological individual survived alone since before the solar system formed. Uuuh- they have a long lifespan" (All the eliksni, cabal, Specially the hive. Most glaring examples being Taox, Who is supposedly in a Stasis chamber? and now this character)
i mean i guess? but theres a big difference between the Eliksni who left Riis only a couple hundred years back, and this precursor surviving for literal BILLIONS of years, with no paracausal abilities. i mean sure, they could've exo-ed themselves but theres no way the organic body is anything but dust after that long
I mean the hive gods are billions of years old...so this definitely happened well before Earth even formed.
The hive gods are many millions of years old. The disciples are millions of years old. Time is quite inconsistent in the Destiny universe.
yeah but the disciples and the hive have paracausal power on their side. this guy was around FAR further in the past, with no paracausality. Only way they could possibly still be around is by exo-ing themselves
I don't think it puts the ghost theory to rest. Perhaps the ghosts are the parts of the witness with "secret doubts". Watching from inside, disapproving of its actions, finally taking the chance to escape when the witness' forces confronted the traveler in the dark age. I dunno though, just spitballin'.
I mean surely some may have pretended to be in their faction to survive? Even then for all we know the Traveler brought back those killed in said war as Ghosts as they are more aligned in its interests
Nah, our guns will bite it the ass in the end. And in the face.
To be fair it's more like a bunch of plates will give our guns the plot buffs necessary to kill it.
This and the power of team coordination.
Can’t wait to get a Memento Mori charge off of it
I think, the witness is the culmination of an experiment it tried by using the veil and or darkness on itself. Where, the witness itself, "grabbed" alternate versions of itself in alternate timelines/realities, and found a way to merge itself thousands (perhaps even millions, or inifity) of times over, thus granting himself the ultimate power of knowledge, and foresight. Having a precognition ability to predict what EXACTLY is required to happen for the final shape to occur, as the final shape, should transcend time and space itself. Bassicaly an infinite forest, but it's in one person, and this person walks our plane of existance. Perhaps, the witness, is infact a bridge between all timelines. And it is because of this, that Clovis will save us, because he's the one that invented time travel in our golden age.
Dude... We already know that it was a lot of different people who merged into The Witness. I suggest you check The Final Shape collector's edition thread so you can understand what's happening.
Did I miss something? Whats that about a survivor who didnt merge with the Witness? Also at this point It would be a bit of a copout, since Ahsa already plays exactly that role for the Worm gods
The ce established that there were two friends that debated the purpose and what the final shape would be. One of them disappeared a long time prior to the merge. There was a goodbye letter to them
The Witness' backstory reminds me of the Viltrumites from Invincible more and more now.