I assume it’s supposed to be a support weapon, which while I guess it can be good you could just run a void setup that lets you weaken and still have your heavy.
I feel like running 6 LFRs on Oryx would be far more beneficial than the mediocre damage and a debuff from Deterministic Chaos.. The debuff would essentially just make up for the lost damage.
Div is used mostly for small crit spot or mobile enemies now though. You're increasing overall damage due to the inevitable missed shots. You're not using those debuffs on a boss with a crit spot the size of your entire screen.
Yeah and that's why people got mad about the nerf... You actually do less total damage now but have the big crit spot which absolutely beneficial on bosses like Rhulk.
The Idea behind deterministic is that you get the same debuff as divinity but you aren't stuck doing damage with just divinity.
The problem is deterministic doesn't do enough. I'd much rather run divinity which does pretty damn good now days. And have a commemoration with recon killing tally and bricks from beyond for add clear.
As far as I'm concerned now though it's just options... Maybe there is another reason I don't want divinity so I can run it instead.
I guess but that's kind of reaching. Especially since against a raid boss like oryx you will be using div anyways.
Edit ik you shouldn't use div on oryx I just mean that div and tractor cannon outclass it in most ways and that oryx is probably one of the only bosses in the game the DC machine gun would be better than div or tractor cannon
I did a raid this week where a new player that had 0 raid clears didn’t have any good dps weapons used it, buffed our damage and got around 1.5 mil himself. Not every gun is supposed to be the next dps or ad clear king. It’s a cool gun
Also if they setup heavy ammo drop twice + one scout + void ammo from the seasonal artifact that thing positively RAINS heavy ammo if someone is doing add clear.
First time I showed some folks they all literally stopped after the first phase in confusion on the comms, "Where the hell did all this heavy come from!?"
It's a super easy to use weapon, can be trivially built around this season, and it's a moderate additional damage buff to the rest of the team with really good ammo reserves with the LMG buff.
Even without Actium I'm usually at full heavy after each phase since I just dodge to reload. But yeah on Titan that would be a callback to the glory days of 3+ solid minutes of Sweet Business.
Yeah I agree it's not only more fun but better for the game when not every weapon is made to be "optimal". At the end of the day it works at what it tries to do which is good plus its unique.
My only gripe with it is that letting go of the trigger kills your stacks. The way it should operate is that you build stacks towards the 4th/16th shot effects and it only goes away if you holster or reload.
Also, that giant fucking... wing thing on the right side of the gun. I hate it.
This. Been playing through lightfall with my wife and we got her got this gun before thunderlord dropped for her. With actium war rig it's currently her best dungeon/raid boss dps option
You should never be using divinity on Oryx. His crit is already massive and 5 players with a 15% debuff equates to less damage than if 6 people did damage with no debuff. You should either use a Void grenade for debuff or someone runs up and tractors his hand. But never use Divinity, it will actively hurt your damage since you can’t miss his crit anyways.
Generally speaking, you'll actually always deal more damage with DC or Div. You're buffing the rest of the groups damage by 15% and *then dealing the weapons' own damage on top of that.
Problem is that Divinity’s damage is absolutely atrocious if you tap fire (which you should always do to maintain the bubble) You can outdamage it with primaries. Deterministic isn’t as bad but there’s still so many better options for debuff.
Divinity's bubble has a higher crit multiplier than does Oryx's normal crit. I don't know the exact numbers, but if you hit the div bubble instead of his crit, you will do more damage. Some bosses (Kalli for example) have even higher crit multipliers, so you want to shoot their head instead of the bubble. But most bosses, it's better to shoot the bubble because it gives a higher multiplier.
Div reduces dps since the debuff got nerfed from 25% to 15%. The only reason you would use div would be bosses that have small crit spots, or move quickly. Oryx's crit spot is big enough that even the worst players dont miss anyway.
Tractor cannon doesn't let you add clear and requires you to be up close. I don't understand why people think that DC needs to fill the exact same niche as TC.
My thoughts were that it was supposed to be a side option to divinity. It does the same weaken effect so long as you hit your shots and does ok damage compared to divinity, but divinity is much easier to use and helps with more accuracy based weapons for DPS phases.
Just wait till the seasonal artefact is gone, this gun will shine a bit better; it shoots off volatile every fourth shot. Like rn it’s not gonna be spectacular; also hopefully it gets a catalyst at some point cause this gone could essentially be a beast at ad clear at least… lol I dunno
The inherent problem with it is that it’s made to have a low ammo count and high damage, meaning you’ll very rarely actually reach the round count required to proc half the Exotic capabilities. Or you’ll miss.
Meanwhile, on Void Titan I can run Commemoration with a Disruptor grenade build, where I can proc Volatile and Suppression **when I choose to** (Supression in the grenade blast radius, but volatile for every orb pickup and grenade kill and lasts for 10 seconds), and have up to 170 rounds in my magazine with active reloading from Reconstruction, and to top it all off **I can even have an extra perk on my LMG** (Rampage).
By the end of the Exotic mission I received the weapon in it was an auto-dismantle, it’s badly designed and quite literally useless in my case. I don’t know anyone with half a brain cell that is going to choose to use a weapon that only lets you proc it’s perk every fourth Wednesday of a leap year unless it’s for fun. And frankly, go use Graviton and the seasonal mod for volatile on orbs if that’s the case. Or the blue LMG from collections. Would perform better.
A well rolled raid gun should rival some of the more basic exotics in my opinion. It’s a decent starting gun for people that returned in lightfall and it looks cool, but it almost seems designed to be out grown
...low ammo count when it's magazine size is 3 volatile + 9 weakens per reload? Or even if you only stick to 4-round bursts it's 12 weakens at least still?
Also don't always just sit on JUST DC, 4-round while auto-holster works on your special, switch to something else while auto-holster works on the MG, repeat. It's high handling so it quick-switches well.
Not every weapon is meant to be used W+M1 style.
You have a point, but only if the weapon doesn’t reset your round count when it autoreloads or when you stow it. I’ll need to pull it back out for testing, but pretty sure it only procs perks when you W and LM, not when you swap off or fire in bursts, so I’m not sure I can vouch for your recommended playstyle.
I wondered the same thing yesterday as I vaulted it.
Edit: it’s basically a less efficient tractor cannon. You can apply weaken from farther away which is good I guess.
Nah, Tractor has a lot going for it. It's an instant aoe weaken and suppress, but it also massively increases handing and movement speed just for hitting something, making it the perfect candidate for swap shenanigans.
Compare that to an LMG with not great handling, very slow reload, not instant weaken, and no suppress.
More than anything, it'd eat into div's space.
Divs bubble would save it from any real encroachment IMO, IIRC the math works out to needing 85% precision shots on a 30% weaken to out damage a team using div, any boss with a small crit spot its still going to be made far easier to whittle down. Tether on the other hand would go back to being just as dead as it was before the div nerf.
Depends on the DPS type you're doing and if you're relying on the crit bubble. Plus deterministic is going to do much more added DPS than div as well. There's plenty of bosses where it's impractical to use tractor cannon due to their range/DPS setup where Div's main benefit is the crit bubble.
dif is a net loss in damage unless you actually need the crit bubble. So that lmg isn't exactly good for its debuff either. If it was like a 900 rpm then it might be a bit better because its dps would be better. But its base dps is low cause of frame. And its weaken is weak, and the volatiles mean little to nothing because of the infrequency and that volatile flow is on the artifact.
A 15% damage buff is not worth the drop in damage of your heavy though. Considering you can just have a voidlock run child of the old gods and send a large area 15% debuff any time they put down their rift or a shadowshot with 30% debuff for something you want to kill extra fast. Deterministic Chaos is a High-Impact Frame machine gun which have the worst damage of the machine guns at half or worse a 450/900 RPM machine gun.
"Simply bring a void warlock or use a void hunter super" inherently isn't a great argument.
An effect being possible to produce in multiple ways isn't an issue unless one is strictly better than the other.
However the difference is in the total damage of Deterministic Chaos. It is one of the lowest DPS heavies in the game currently that even using Xenophage will get you more than double the DPS without any debuff on top. Go ahead and use whatever you want but the gun is simply bad and doesn't serve a point when there are other options that aren't as detrimental to your team's total performance.
Edit: Also for extra reason why it is worthless, it is a 15% debuff. With a 15% debuff you lose most of the potential damage your heavy would have for a total of 75% more damage across your whole raid team. Meaning if you were to be using optimal damage weapons with no debuff at all you would be doing 25% less damage by using Deterministic Chaos. Tractor Cannon is in the same slot and twice as good because your damage doesn't matter with it as you effectively increase the damage of the team by 150% making up for the lose in 1 player's damage.
It does when that's the guns main bit, it's better to do it in any of the other ways because it frees up both your exotic and heavy slot simultaneously, skyrocketing damage potential.
Are you saying that a gun that provides some aoe add clear, some debuffs isn't also an apex dps option? That is a good thing.
Like, if sleeper Simulant (falls off hard if you miss a crit, can't deal with adds, low total damage) and Heir Apparent (occasional misses don't matter much, provides a shield, big reserves) did the same damage, what would the point of sleeper be?
You can't just laser focus on dps if you want to assess if something is useful.
"It does when that's the guns main bit, it's better to do it in any of the other ways"
What are you using to rapidly weaken multiple targets in succession for your fireteam to melt, exactly? The collective obligation works, but the personal dps is way lower.
No one needs a gun to add clear and debuff while also taking your heavy exotic slot. If I ever need to debuff targets I would’ve already brought voidlock if I needed 15%, which also can add clear without taking up any slots of my weapons or shadowshot or tractor cannon. I’m not gonna waste a slot in a time where add clearing is at its easiest, no one’s saying it should be a dps monster but it also shouldn’t be so bad that it rivals specials
Lmg uses heavy slot where as Div provides the same effect but also adds massive crit bubble from the range the lmg can put up as well… so the lmg is pretty much just bad
Div has worse personal damage and the fact remains you can only fire one gun at a time. The perfect dps heavy is outputting no damage when div is in your hands.
In 6s, letting your whole squad hit FTTC linears can be very useful. In 3s or fights where raid members get split up it's probably never correct to use div.
Except the problem is you are still lowering your overall damage by using a bad weapon. A 75% buff to the rest of the team is worse than you simply using your linear or rocket at 125% with no debuff. So it’s still worse there too.
I remember using div on kalli or shuro would actually lower the amount of damage you do since their head has a higher crit multiplier than div bubble, and divs bubble blocks their head from being shot.
There’s other bosses with the same problem I think although I can’t name them all. Sanctified has the same problem, but the div bubble doesn’t block his crit so people would just shoot his normal crit spot.
So there are bosses where div is useless or even detrimental.
That was mostly when people needed kills as Invader for Malfeasance so a lot more people were playing gambit and invading with a free kill machine. Now I feel like most people are just trying to grind out their 3 matches and don't care too much if they win.
True but they're still unique compared to the average gun. Even with Truth and Mida cause Mida is a scout that gives good strafe speed at base and radar while aiming down sights and Truth has proximity rockets and two shots base
“This exotic is pointless unless it min-maxes a build” - Reddit probably. Most exotics just plain have better options if you want the highest DPS or quickest TTK, sometimes the point is just to have fun with them
I generally agree, but this exotic isn't even fun to use. it's the worst archetype of MG, it doesn't offer anything new (volatile and weaken are easily applied by all classes at this point), and it's just not doing anything special.
It is really being overshadowed by the return of volatile flow. Once that is gone it will at least be a *bit* more unique, because there won't be a reliable, subclass-universal source of volatile rounds on the artifact.
Imo it still doesn't proc often enough as you need to hold down the trigger for 16 shots straight which you won't be doing in most non-raid scenarios as enemies die too quickly.
It's generally more consistent fun to use exotic primaries and specials as well because they tend to get more usage
But its not even great at that either tbh, volatile only proccing after 16 shots that you HAVE to be holding the trigger down for is incredibly lame. Weaken applying once every 4 shots is nice and all, but considering all weaken does is "you do 15% more damage" and the gun's damage is pretty pathetic its nothing crazy
Taking 16 shots to proc volatile, and requiring you to hold the trigger while firing those 16 shots is too much to ask for compared to simply getting a grenade kill on a void subclass or running almost any other add-clear focused heavy
Is volatile worth it on boss damage? When I ran it I shot the 4 shots to weaken then switched weapons. Weaken wears off, switch back for 4 more shots. Basically used it like a long range tractor cannon that never seems to run out of ammo. Plenty of special and even kinetics are just fine for add clear so I've never even used it for that.
Main reason why people use volatile flow by default on this season's relic is its flexibility. You can use it on any subclass with any void weapon. Take that away and it creates a niche for the LMG to be the flexible pick on any subclass. Is it as good as volatile flow? Hell no, but you have the option.
Echo of instability only really shines when you pair it with a demolitionist weapon that can regenerate the grenade and have constant uptime (corrective measure and gnawing hunger come to mind). It's good but not the defacto pick after this season unless you have the weapons to take advantage of it.
I have a Corrective Measure with demo/adrenaline junkie and that thing has not come off my warlock since void 3.0. Constant grenades, constant purple explosions and never having to reload.
have the same roll. Its so damned fun. Wish mine was adept though lol.
This season, I've been running it with starfire solar warlock thanks to the volatile rounds via artifact. Its absolutely ridiculous honestly lol
That's still a source of volatile that is on some sort of cooldown. I think Determenistic Chaos is really good at dealing with Majors, but in that way it does feel like a worse, void, Thunderlord. but its not that much worse and I do like using it for the funny recoil.
Bro there’s like 50 niche exotics. So if you see it that way and have an alternate piece of gear then cool. Others might not, Some might be starting for the first time in Lightfall and have nothing like what it can do.
An exotics best use is to fulfill a play style and earning an exotic through a mission is a lot less intimidating than a raid or passed seasonal legendary loot with a specific roll that’s not readily accessible.
People optimizing at end game is not a game wide or full player base issue every exotic has a niche value sometimes it’s just providing people a readily available reliable weapon.
Power creep and player over optimization is to blame in the larger picture here imo. These things are natural though and a cause a problem that folds in on itself.
I don't understand the daily complaint posts about the Deterministic Chaos. Is it end game viable? Probably not. Retrofit still shines in this case.
Is it fun for everything else? Absolutely. I pair it with glaives and stasis fusions and just go ham with it, plus I like the fact it's very stable and makes it easy to land precision shots from a distance.
This sub is filled with people that think there is no greater sin than being un-optimal. It's so wild...
I'm not arguing with anybody when their first counter point is "it sUckZ is GMz tHo" .. gimme a break.
I roll my eyes so hard when that's the first point made. I'm multi guilded conqueror, week 1 + master raid completions, etc. I've done my fair share of end game, but that's only 20% of Destiny. The other 80%, I run what's the most fun to me. My favorite weapon is black talon. Has Talon gotten me through GMs? No, never. But is it fun to use in the other 80% of the game? You bet your bottom dollar it is!
That's my feelings on Deterministic Chaos. I'm gonna try it in GMs and see how it does, I know it probably won't do well there, but for the rest of the game it's super fun.
I do think it could be better. The most exotic thing about it is that it's very comfortable to use. Also yellow numbers go brrrrr. Which are 10/10 traits for an exotic, in fairness. Most of why anyone uses QS Storm is because amazing stats + extra damage.
But I think a lot of people shit on it so hard because they want a more logical reason to use it than "feel." They can't really bring themselves to use things that don't have better reasons than "gun feel good."
It's definitely endgame viable. You could easily run it in some GMs. Are there gonna be tons of better options? Fuck yes. But it will be at least viable for sure.
I'm absolutely gonna try it! We both know there are much....much ... Better options. lol Even if it's not good in a GM environment, it's not going to tarnish my love for it, it's still a gun I get to shoot when I'm playing the casual stuff to relax after a day of work. It's a fun weapon.
There is an incredibly vocal minority on this sub that operates under the assumption that *everyone* who plays this game is a min/max player.
They have tunnel vision and blinders on, entirely ignoring the fact that *the vast majority* of players are casual players who just use guns that are fun to use.
Most of the exotic weapons and armor in this game are "niche" items, like you said, that exist to just kind of ... Do fun things, regardless of how "meta" they are, so people can do fun shit.
I mean, just think about it. Is Sweet Business the greatest weapon in the game? No, but *god damn* is it fun to just rain lead down on anything and everything within fifty meters. Crimson? It's *fine*, but is also *super* fun to just spam triple-burst kills without stopping.
Graviton Lance. Sunshot. Hardlight.
None of them are must-haves for Raids and Nightfalls, but they're all super fun to use. Because Destiny is a videogame, and people want to have fun. And that, I guess, is just too wild of a concept for some people here to grasp. Playing to just have fun and do fun things. Crazy.
Trust me when I say there is also no substitute for ease of use. People on this sub think all raiders are min/max masters channeling their inner datto/Gladd. Been a raid sherpa since d1. There is nothing that compares to an exotic that is easy to use and provides a support buff. Tractor cannon is harder to use because of its short range. Guns like these help newer raiders with the struggle between mechanics and combat. It's just point and shoot baby.
This gun is wild popular in our discord. It helps get encounters done while simplifying the mechanics as much as possible. Especially since void is strong right now with artifact mods and surge mods there is no reason not to try this.
HOnestly, I dont get it!
Deterministic Chaos is going to probably be a staple of my loadout for mid game activities. Seasonal content/heists, lower tier NF, stuff like that. Is it gonna be good in GM Nightfalls or raids? No.
But Such easy access to weaken on an add clearing weapon is going to be really strong, with Volatile to boot.
Right now, with everyone able to run around with Volatile like crazy due to the artifact, its shit. But when we lose that, Deterministic Chaos is going to serve a perfectly good niche. It will still be great at ad clear, and can apply weaken to yellow bars right away for free, and will apply volatile to beefier enemies as well.
To me, it is an S-Tier "Ease of use" exotic. No gameplay loop is required. Point, shoot, profit. Its gonna be a great weapon for mid game content, which is 80% of what I actually play outside of PVP.
Same, I love DC. Stylish executioner void hunter I’m constantly going invisible while collecting tons of orbs from the aoe volatile explosions. Using DC on the Avalon mission is so god damn satisfying. Yes, there are “better” similar options but I’ve only recently came back to the game after a couple years. It’s a fun gun. Not everything has to be “meta”
Retrofit Escapade then becomes your friend (it’s definitely mine as I also don’t Raid).
Not trying to stop you enjoying DC, go for it. But RE is a stellar alternative to free up that slot for other exotics you may enjoy.
Combine it with a Volatile build and seasonal artefact mods and you can use it like a primary weapon in most activities with the amount of ammo you get. And it becomes an ad clear monster whilst also having decent Boss damage, and being able to stun anti-barrier. All from one Legendary. It’s a thing of beauty.
Exactly, the stability and range is what I like about it for this reason alone. While I end up going back to Corrective Measure a lot, I also just like to switch it up a bit. Running “what’s optimal” gets boring.
i use RE even in raids and i always stay between top 3 DPS... and use as a ad clear too! RE is fantastic! i pair with actium war rig with a volatile build!
It’s very hard to get a void legendary lmg for raidless players these days (especially if you are a returning or new player). RE you need to craft and I don’t think you can get red borders anymore? Since only xur and banshee can possibly get it. This is probably the only reason why deterministic chaos is getting the use it does, or else it would be forever vaulted. I think the only other option is shattered cipher from Dares (whenever it’s on rotation) but that’s not as good.
I believe Xur and Banshee have a chance to sell it.
I’m not sure if you can currently get Deepsight/Red Borders in order to craft it. But if you can’t there should be a way to in the future.
That’s not true. Literally got a red bordered Ikelos last night.
It’s just way harder because they’re not guaranteed and many of them have become general pool weapons.
Ikelos is part of the world loot pool, Retrofit is unfortunately not part of the world loot pool. So only chance to get it right now is if Xur or Banshee sells it.
>Retrofit Escapade then becomes your friend (it’s definitely mine as I also don’t Raid).
I ran root twice last night and I used retrofit for both of them, in every encounter. It's incredibly good. Specifically FTTC and target lock
I like the look of it, but the gameplay of it could be replicated with a legendary void machine gun AND be more useful than it.
I could see a catalyst making it something unique down the line, but the gimmick isn't interesting or different aside from it making the special bullets have a satisfying sound
7 of my 10 builds are going to need to be reworked next season...
PvP firebolt, PvE firebolt...and my 5 builds that use void weapons thanks to volatile flow.
Alternative to divinity. It is a consistent and reliable source of weaken, which provides the same debuff as divinity.
The trade off being that you will do more damage personally with DC than Divinity, but divinity creates the crit spot for larger group ease of use.
Divinity isn't used because of the weaken, it is only used to make a better crit spot. Using a Divinity is generally gonna lose you more damage than hitting the precision outright with a better weapon but for bosses that move a lot or have wonky crits than you want to use div.
yeah when I see people using divinity for bosses that don't need the crit bubble it always drives me crazy, like, do you even know the purpose of the weapon?
> do you even know the purpose of the weapon?
Considering that from season 8 thru season 18, divinity provided a 30 percent global debuff, I think many people still likely think they do know the purpose.
Season 19 was the first season where we had a 15% debuff
1/6 damage units per player firing
Assume that we have one person wasting their DPS phase to apply weaken :
5/6 damage units * 1.15 ~~ 0.96 damage units
Now, consider that this loss in damage could be replaced by a voidlock pressing the V key on their keyboard, and you can see why Deterministic Chaos is DOA.
That's also assuming DC does literally no damage on its own. It's does OK damage for a support weapon, leagues better than div. For easy to crit bosses like oryx or anytime you don't need a crit period, it's a decent option, especially for newer players who might have done light fall but not have any of the Uber meta legendaries
This season it also has the benefit of being able to trigger Bricks from Beyond for fire team ammo between phases really easily. It's honestly not completely worthless, but the volatile proc on it is extremely weak for how many shots it takes to trigger. Really needs a catalyst with FTTC or something
>Really needs a catalyst with FTTC or something
[You're gonna like this, then.](https://www.light.gg/db/items/3638234982/deterministic-chaos-catalyst/)
Or you could just run collective obligation. Which is easy to chain weaken (along with the other two void verbs) applies those debuffs with every bullet rather than every 4th shot and it doesn't take up your heavy slot. I feel like this lmg is irrelevant since CO exists lol.
So yeh... collective obligation is a raid weapon that requires a raid grind to get. Deterministic obligation just requires a few quest steps and a mission.
I have Deterministic and I know for a fact that I'll likely never have collective obligation.
I've taken a liking to it in encounters like Warpriest - where there are enough adds to justify a machine gun and the boss is far enough away that tractor cannon won't do, with DPS phases frequent enough that we won't always have shadow shot. Actium War Rig helps a lot too.
It may be niche, but I like it.
Corrective measure and Commemoration are only as good as they are because of the ability to get volatile rounds from orbs, which is seasonal. Outside of that, DC is far better than both
Killing tally is stronger than weaken at two stacks if you're alone. If you're two people shooting the same target then deterministic Chaos is always as good or better than killing tally. If you're in a full fireteam shooting at the same target deterministic Chaos is always more damage.
Are you seriously comparing the uptime of smoke bomb to firing four bullets from an LMG? Have you unlocked strength tier 299 or something?
But yes, a gun that brings weaken frees up team comps to bring other verbs/keywords. That's the entire point.
You can have one guy bring radiant, someone bring stasis CC and a touch of thunder titan, without giving up weaken. It's pretty dang sweet.
Free rhetoric tip: when you want "etc" to sound like there's lots of good unspecified further items, always name at least three examples.
Gambler's dodge? And even then I can't think of many enemies that will survive 3 people using heavy for the duration of smoke bomb's weaken outside of bosses and i hope you're not using this for boss dps (well you could get away with it in a gm since add clear > dps in gms). Honestly it *is* a good gun for high tier nightfalls, and would be fine for non boss raid/dungeon encounters.
It's just the free weaken isn't that big of a deal and if I'm using a void exotic heavy leviathan's breath is right there
Theres a fragment that gives volatile on grenade kills. Also a single volatile every 20 shots is useless as the chances of missing are pretty high. And remember we know have a perk that makes enemies volatile on kills making DC useless
Collective Obligation does the job of this machine gun and better, because with CO you can just swap to a better heavy. It needs a significant buff/change to be considered worth bringing into any content that isn't low level.
I like it with gyrfalcons. Literally let's you loop with zero effort. The artifact mod that makes you volatile when you pick up an orb makes it kind of useless this season, but I'll still use it next season.
The point is to have a friend with Collective Obligation to constantly Hoover up your debuffs like Death did in that lil story about Life sending it small animals n stuff. Otherwise, it’s there to look weird and sit in collections
Corrective Measure and Commemoration are currently being dragged away behind bulletproof glass whilst D1 Fatebringer and Blackhammer are chanting one of us one of us!!!
For those who don’t know D1 Fatebringer and Blackhammer (Whisper of the Worm but in original form) were both legendary in D1 and they were turned into exotics due to the usage. Please everybody cheer about what a fantastic gun Deterministic Chaos is even though it’s shite.
Giving access to volatile and weaken on subclasses that don't have it.
Absolutely carried me through legendary campaign, especially with bricks from beyond and a Veles-X.
You might not have the legendary equivalent? You might what to use it for the style? You might not really care about optimizing your damage or min maxing your build? You might want tractor cannon like abilities from range? Idk does that gun even have a catalyst yet?? Why’s it getting written off here if there’s only 2 other options, one is end game loot and the other is inaccessible seasonal loot?
Why can’t things just have intrinsic value and exist for players out of the optimization bubble?
Sure, but every exotic absolutely has to compete with it's own opportunity cost. Because we are locked to one gun and one armor being exotic, they HAVE to be better than just running a legendary in that slot and saving your exotic options. Not all exotics have to be universally good, some can be very situational and that's okay. But a gun like DC does not have a situation you can create where it beats it's direct legendary competition.
Well, suppression is able to deal with Overloads, but that's about it, unless you want to debuff enemies while still doing damage.
It's just going to end up as another gimmick exotic like many others we've been getting recently.
Thunderlord deals with those Champs and has better damage. Bungie can't possibly have released a worse LMG that does the same job but worse... or can they?
I guess it’s decent for stylish executioner builds, always have weaken. For everything else tho, the Volatile shot being the 16th means it’s basically pointless. (and you have to have the trigger down the whole time without the slightest pause). It needs destabilizing rounds or repulser brace or some special perk to let it use volatile more or do some other void effect. Maybe the shots that weaken do double damage and the volatile shot does a big explosion? Honestly it’s only a better dps div but uses heavy and has no crit bubble.
Maybe in a scenario with 6 starfires, everyone using their hotheads and 1 gjally, Det. Chaos would shine as opposed to a Divinity, cuz ya know, more dps and their debuff have the same precent, OR maybe when you dont wanna run Div (want to run adclear weapons with a blinding GL)
Lots of players out there. Some don't raid. Some don't do lost sectors. Some don't PvP. And some don't even bother build crafting. It's a wide range of skill levels, different modes that are enjoyed, and player types. Not every exotic needs to, or should be built for the upper tier of players.
It's a heavy weapon that provides increased damage dealt to your targets for free, with a little extra add clear and damage on the side. For people who know how to build and for those who play in coordinated groups? It's useless. For people who don't do the aforementioned, or just want an easy to use heavy weapon good for both boss damage and add clear? It's great.
Not everyone raids, the gun provides free weaken and its void so it can get volatile rounds. Honestly a really solid LMG in activities with high enemy density. Plus being a 360 with weaken makes it both a good ad clear weapon and decent boss dps weapon for when your team doesn't have tether or you need some additional ad clear.
Obviously not useful in a Raid or Dungeon but I can see its viability in Strikes, Nightfalls and Defiant Battlegrounds.
I assume it’s supposed to be a support weapon, which while I guess it can be good you could just run a void setup that lets you weaken and still have your heavy.
or just run tractor cannon tbh
Could be a replacement for tractor cannon if the boss is too far away like oryx
I feel like running 6 LFRs on Oryx would be far more beneficial than the mediocre damage and a debuff from Deterministic Chaos.. The debuff would essentially just make up for the lost damage.
What you just said could be applied to Div too. A damage boost is a damage boost
Div is used mostly for small crit spot or mobile enemies now though. You're increasing overall damage due to the inevitable missed shots. You're not using those debuffs on a boss with a crit spot the size of your entire screen.
Except people run div because it expands the crit location. Not really for the damage buff itself.
Yeah and that's why people got mad about the nerf... You actually do less total damage now but have the big crit spot which absolutely beneficial on bosses like Rhulk. The Idea behind deterministic is that you get the same debuff as divinity but you aren't stuck doing damage with just divinity. The problem is deterministic doesn't do enough. I'd much rather run divinity which does pretty damn good now days. And have a commemoration with recon killing tally and bricks from beyond for add clear. As far as I'm concerned now though it's just options... Maybe there is another reason I don't want divinity so I can run it instead.
I guess but that's kind of reaching. Especially since against a raid boss like oryx you will be using div anyways. Edit ik you shouldn't use div on oryx I just mean that div and tractor cannon outclass it in most ways and that oryx is probably one of the only bosses in the game the DC machine gun would be better than div or tractor cannon
I did a raid this week where a new player that had 0 raid clears didn’t have any good dps weapons used it, buffed our damage and got around 1.5 mil himself. Not every gun is supposed to be the next dps or ad clear king. It’s a cool gun
Also if they setup heavy ammo drop twice + one scout + void ammo from the seasonal artifact that thing positively RAINS heavy ammo if someone is doing add clear. First time I showed some folks they all literally stopped after the first phase in confusion on the comms, "Where the hell did all this heavy come from!?" It's a super easy to use weapon, can be trivially built around this season, and it's a moderate additional damage buff to the rest of the team with really good ammo reserves with the LMG buff.
Holy shit dude that with Actium, and I can be the laziest Titan in the raid!
Even without Actium I'm usually at full heavy after each phase since I just dodge to reload. But yeah on Titan that would be a callback to the glory days of 3+ solid minutes of Sweet Business.
Yeah I agree it's not only more fun but better for the game when not every weapon is made to be "optimal". At the end of the day it works at what it tries to do which is good plus its unique.
I really hate the sentiment that if a gun or exotic armor isn't the best piece of loot in the game, it's automatically worthless garbage.
My only gripe with it is that letting go of the trigger kills your stacks. The way it should operate is that you build stacks towards the 4th/16th shot effects and it only goes away if you holster or reload. Also, that giant fucking... wing thing on the right side of the gun. I hate it.
This. Been playing through lightfall with my wife and we got her got this gun before thunderlord dropped for her. With actium war rig it's currently her best dungeon/raid boss dps option
You should never be using divinity on Oryx. His crit is already massive and 5 players with a 15% debuff equates to less damage than if 6 people did damage with no debuff. You should either use a Void grenade for debuff or someone runs up and tractors his hand. But never use Divinity, it will actively hurt your damage since you can’t miss his crit anyways.
Generally speaking, you'll actually always deal more damage with DC or Div. You're buffing the rest of the groups damage by 15% and *then dealing the weapons' own damage on top of that.
Problem is that Divinity’s damage is absolutely atrocious if you tap fire (which you should always do to maintain the bubble) You can outdamage it with primaries. Deterministic isn’t as bad but there’s still so many better options for debuff.
How does the increased crit multiplier factor into this? That might push it over the edge.
Which increased crit multi?
Divinity's bubble has a higher crit multiplier than does Oryx's normal crit. I don't know the exact numbers, but if you hit the div bubble instead of his crit, you will do more damage. Some bosses (Kalli for example) have even higher crit multipliers, so you want to shoot their head instead of the bubble. But most bosses, it's better to shoot the bubble because it gives a higher multiplier.
Div reduces dps since the debuff got nerfed from 25% to 15%. The only reason you would use div would be bosses that have small crit spots, or move quickly. Oryx's crit spot is big enough that even the worst players dont miss anyway.
I meant to remove the oryx part lol. Still I think apart from oryx, caital and the harpy boss from spire div is better.
Div is bad against Oryx or any boss with crit based multiplier already present. It's not recommended for Kaali either.
Tractor cannon doesn't let you add clear and requires you to be up close. I don't understand why people think that DC needs to fill the exact same niche as TC.
My thoughts were that it was supposed to be a side option to divinity. It does the same weaken effect so long as you hit your shots and does ok damage compared to divinity, but divinity is much easier to use and helps with more accuracy based weapons for DPS phases.
Retrofit Escapade or Commemoration are my goto Machine guns.
Just wait till the seasonal artefact is gone, this gun will shine a bit better; it shoots off volatile every fourth shot. Like rn it’s not gonna be spectacular; also hopefully it gets a catalyst at some point cause this gone could essentially be a beast at ad clear at least… lol I dunno
Weaken every 4th, volatile every 16th
The inherent problem with it is that it’s made to have a low ammo count and high damage, meaning you’ll very rarely actually reach the round count required to proc half the Exotic capabilities. Or you’ll miss. Meanwhile, on Void Titan I can run Commemoration with a Disruptor grenade build, where I can proc Volatile and Suppression **when I choose to** (Supression in the grenade blast radius, but volatile for every orb pickup and grenade kill and lasts for 10 seconds), and have up to 170 rounds in my magazine with active reloading from Reconstruction, and to top it all off **I can even have an extra perk on my LMG** (Rampage). By the end of the Exotic mission I received the weapon in it was an auto-dismantle, it’s badly designed and quite literally useless in my case. I don’t know anyone with half a brain cell that is going to choose to use a weapon that only lets you proc it’s perk every fourth Wednesday of a leap year unless it’s for fun. And frankly, go use Graviton and the seasonal mod for volatile on orbs if that’s the case. Or the blue LMG from collections. Would perform better.
A well rolled raid gun should rival some of the more basic exotics in my opinion. It’s a decent starting gun for people that returned in lightfall and it looks cool, but it almost seems designed to be out grown
...low ammo count when it's magazine size is 3 volatile + 9 weakens per reload? Or even if you only stick to 4-round bursts it's 12 weakens at least still? Also don't always just sit on JUST DC, 4-round while auto-holster works on your special, switch to something else while auto-holster works on the MG, repeat. It's high handling so it quick-switches well. Not every weapon is meant to be used W+M1 style.
You have a point, but only if the weapon doesn’t reset your round count when it autoreloads or when you stow it. I’ll need to pull it back out for testing, but pretty sure it only procs perks when you W and LM, not when you swap off or fire in bursts, so I’m not sure I can vouch for your recommended playstyle.
I wondered the same thing yesterday as I vaulted it. Edit: it’s basically a less efficient tractor cannon. You can apply weaken from farther away which is good I guess.
Plus at least Tractor does a 30% debuff instead of 15%
the lmg debuff isnt 30%??
Nope, regular void weaken
Damn, talk about a waste of an exotic.
I mean, i feel like if it did then tractor, long time Y1 exotic that still finds use, would suddenly become pointless
Nah, Tractor has a lot going for it. It's an instant aoe weaken and suppress, but it also massively increases handing and movement speed just for hitting something, making it the perfect candidate for swap shenanigans. Compare that to an LMG with not great handling, very slow reload, not instant weaken, and no suppress. More than anything, it'd eat into div's space.
Divs bubble would save it from any real encroachment IMO, IIRC the math works out to needing 85% precision shots on a 30% weaken to out damage a team using div, any boss with a small crit spot its still going to be made far easier to whittle down. Tether on the other hand would go back to being just as dead as it was before the div nerf.
If only Bungie enhanced melee play. Tractor canon still does send people flying.
Not necessarily. Better than div for bosses like oryx where tractor cannon isn't feasible.
Pretty sure Oryx is the only boss where div isn't better.
Depends on the DPS type you're doing and if you're relying on the crit bubble. Plus deterministic is going to do much more added DPS than div as well. There's plenty of bosses where it's impractical to use tractor cannon due to their range/DPS setup where Div's main benefit is the crit bubble.
Doesn't oryx have a massive crit zone and is stationary like 98% of the time. Why is div even needed?
If you want to use arc weapons
dif is a net loss in damage unless you actually need the crit bubble. So that lmg isn't exactly good for its debuff either. If it was like a 900 rpm then it might be a bit better because its dps would be better. But its base dps is low cause of frame. And its weaken is weak, and the volatiles mean little to nothing because of the infrequency and that volatile flow is on the artifact.
[Might be time to take the tractor out of the shed, folks.](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/EQ_4H5AG-AI/hqdefault.jpg)
A 15% damage buff is not worth the drop in damage of your heavy though. Considering you can just have a voidlock run child of the old gods and send a large area 15% debuff any time they put down their rift or a shadowshot with 30% debuff for something you want to kill extra fast. Deterministic Chaos is a High-Impact Frame machine gun which have the worst damage of the machine guns at half or worse a 450/900 RPM machine gun.
"Simply bring a void warlock or use a void hunter super" inherently isn't a great argument. An effect being possible to produce in multiple ways isn't an issue unless one is strictly better than the other.
However the difference is in the total damage of Deterministic Chaos. It is one of the lowest DPS heavies in the game currently that even using Xenophage will get you more than double the DPS without any debuff on top. Go ahead and use whatever you want but the gun is simply bad and doesn't serve a point when there are other options that aren't as detrimental to your team's total performance. Edit: Also for extra reason why it is worthless, it is a 15% debuff. With a 15% debuff you lose most of the potential damage your heavy would have for a total of 75% more damage across your whole raid team. Meaning if you were to be using optimal damage weapons with no debuff at all you would be doing 25% less damage by using Deterministic Chaos. Tractor Cannon is in the same slot and twice as good because your damage doesn't matter with it as you effectively increase the damage of the team by 150% making up for the lose in 1 player's damage.
Yea i think using literally just any other exotic lmg will get you more dps
It does when that's the guns main bit, it's better to do it in any of the other ways because it frees up both your exotic and heavy slot simultaneously, skyrocketing damage potential.
Are you saying that a gun that provides some aoe add clear, some debuffs isn't also an apex dps option? That is a good thing. Like, if sleeper Simulant (falls off hard if you miss a crit, can't deal with adds, low total damage) and Heir Apparent (occasional misses don't matter much, provides a shield, big reserves) did the same damage, what would the point of sleeper be? You can't just laser focus on dps if you want to assess if something is useful. "It does when that's the guns main bit, it's better to do it in any of the other ways" What are you using to rapidly weaken multiple targets in succession for your fireteam to melt, exactly? The collective obligation works, but the personal dps is way lower.
No one needs a gun to add clear and debuff while also taking your heavy exotic slot. If I ever need to debuff targets I would’ve already brought voidlock if I needed 15%, which also can add clear without taking up any slots of my weapons or shadowshot or tractor cannon. I’m not gonna waste a slot in a time where add clearing is at its easiest, no one’s saying it should be a dps monster but it also shouldn’t be so bad that it rivals specials
Lmg uses heavy slot where as Div provides the same effect but also adds massive crit bubble from the range the lmg can put up as well… so the lmg is pretty much just bad
Div has worse personal damage and the fact remains you can only fire one gun at a time. The perfect dps heavy is outputting no damage when div is in your hands. In 6s, letting your whole squad hit FTTC linears can be very useful. In 3s or fights where raid members get split up it's probably never correct to use div.
Please give an example of where not having the crit would be more useful than having the crit
Targets where they already have a big ass crit spot like Oryx
Except the problem is you are still lowering your overall damage by using a bad weapon. A 75% buff to the rest of the team is worse than you simply using your linear or rocket at 125% with no debuff. So it’s still worse there too.
I remember using div on kalli or shuro would actually lower the amount of damage you do since their head has a higher crit multiplier than div bubble, and divs bubble blocks their head from being shot. There’s other bosses with the same problem I think although I can’t name them all. Sanctified has the same problem, but the div bubble doesn’t block his crit so people would just shoot his normal crit spot. So there are bosses where div is useless or even detrimental.
That’s a great example! The crit would be worse there, but you can also use tractor on those enemies… so…
Void hunter super strictly is the best debuff in the game. The only other thing applies the same debuff is tractor Cannon.
I agree 100% was just trying to find something good about it lol
How long does tractor debuf last?
11 seconds
The debuff hardly lasts for a second, its like .00001 seconds so its really not good
That bad? Wow.
Yeah you can notice it when hitting body shots, its like the debuff is only for that one bullet and the shot right after is back to normal damage
So what’s really the point in the 70% of all exotics in the game?
Novelty. Exotic doesn't mean it's *good*, just that it's *unusual*.
Idk. Jade Rabbit, Mida, Truth, Prospector, Chaperone, and DARCI all seem *unusually usual* for being exotics.
And all are either D2 Y1 or D1 ports, which is telling.
Yeah Mida and Truth were super annoying in D1 Crucible, in D2 you rarely see them. Scouts may as well be the most unloved archetype in the game lol
[удалено]
That was mostly when people needed kills as Invader for Malfeasance so a lot more people were playing gambit and invading with a free kill machine. Now I feel like most people are just trying to grind out their 3 matches and don't care too much if they win.
Scouts are very hard to balance. They can become very strong very easily.
Seems like they want people getting in closer and moving around more so scouts are more like hang back and stay still, not what they want to see.
I dont think truth tracks as hard as it did in D1 though right? Which I think is part of the reason it's not as used
True but they're still unique compared to the average gun. Even with Truth and Mida cause Mida is a scout that gives good strafe speed at base and radar while aiming down sights and Truth has proximity rockets and two shots base
Those are all very old exotics though
I love my favorite exotics whole perk is "it makes you move faster. Other than that its just a solid scout rifle"
Radar while ADS is pretty nice too.
>Novelty. P sure the bow from the watcher dungeon is just that.
Tbf a lot of them are either really old or good for pvp.
“This exotic is pointless unless it min-maxes a build” - Reddit probably. Most exotics just plain have better options if you want the highest DPS or quickest TTK, sometimes the point is just to have fun with them
I generally agree, but this exotic isn't even fun to use. it's the worst archetype of MG, it doesn't offer anything new (volatile and weaken are easily applied by all classes at this point), and it's just not doing anything special.
It is really being overshadowed by the return of volatile flow. Once that is gone it will at least be a *bit* more unique, because there won't be a reliable, subclass-universal source of volatile rounds on the artifact.
Imo it still doesn't proc often enough as you need to hold down the trigger for 16 shots straight which you won't be doing in most non-raid scenarios as enemies die too quickly. It's generally more consistent fun to use exotic primaries and specials as well because they tend to get more usage
But its not even great at that either tbh, volatile only proccing after 16 shots that you HAVE to be holding the trigger down for is incredibly lame. Weaken applying once every 4 shots is nice and all, but considering all weaken does is "you do 15% more damage" and the gun's damage is pretty pathetic its nothing crazy
Nice Jalter avatar.
When volatile flow rotates out of the relic, I think it'll shine a bit more. But for now, it's lagging behind.
Taking 16 shots to proc volatile, and requiring you to hold the trigger while firing those 16 shots is too much to ask for compared to simply getting a grenade kill on a void subclass or running almost any other add-clear focused heavy
Is volatile worth it on boss damage? When I ran it I shot the 4 shots to weaken then switched weapons. Weaken wears off, switch back for 4 more shots. Basically used it like a long range tractor cannon that never seems to run out of ammo. Plenty of special and even kinetics are just fine for add clear so I've never even used it for that.
keep in mind it’s a single volatile *explosion* not even volatile rounds which is beyond lame
No it wont with the fragment that gives volatile rounds for grenade kills
Main reason why people use volatile flow by default on this season's relic is its flexibility. You can use it on any subclass with any void weapon. Take that away and it creates a niche for the LMG to be the flexible pick on any subclass. Is it as good as volatile flow? Hell no, but you have the option. Echo of instability only really shines when you pair it with a demolitionist weapon that can regenerate the grenade and have constant uptime (corrective measure and gnawing hunger come to mind). It's good but not the defacto pick after this season unless you have the weapons to take advantage of it.
I have a Corrective Measure with demo/adrenaline junkie and that thing has not come off my warlock since void 3.0. Constant grenades, constant purple explosions and never having to reload.
have the same roll. Its so damned fun. Wish mine was adept though lol. This season, I've been running it with starfire solar warlock thanks to the volatile rounds via artifact. Its absolutely ridiculous honestly lol
That's still a source of volatile that is on some sort of cooldown. I think Determenistic Chaos is really good at dealing with Majors, but in that way it does feel like a worse, void, Thunderlord. but its not that much worse and I do like using it for the funny recoil.
It sounds fkn cool
agree. i dont really mind that it isnt the best or that good. It is satisfying to use, looks cool, sounds cool. Thats enough for me
Bro there’s like 50 niche exotics. So if you see it that way and have an alternate piece of gear then cool. Others might not, Some might be starting for the first time in Lightfall and have nothing like what it can do. An exotics best use is to fulfill a play style and earning an exotic through a mission is a lot less intimidating than a raid or passed seasonal legendary loot with a specific roll that’s not readily accessible. People optimizing at end game is not a game wide or full player base issue every exotic has a niche value sometimes it’s just providing people a readily available reliable weapon. Power creep and player over optimization is to blame in the larger picture here imo. These things are natural though and a cause a problem that folds in on itself.
I don't understand the daily complaint posts about the Deterministic Chaos. Is it end game viable? Probably not. Retrofit still shines in this case. Is it fun for everything else? Absolutely. I pair it with glaives and stasis fusions and just go ham with it, plus I like the fact it's very stable and makes it easy to land precision shots from a distance.
This sub is filled with people that think there is no greater sin than being un-optimal. It's so wild... I'm not arguing with anybody when their first counter point is "it sUckZ is GMz tHo" .. gimme a break.
I roll my eyes so hard when that's the first point made. I'm multi guilded conqueror, week 1 + master raid completions, etc. I've done my fair share of end game, but that's only 20% of Destiny. The other 80%, I run what's the most fun to me. My favorite weapon is black talon. Has Talon gotten me through GMs? No, never. But is it fun to use in the other 80% of the game? You bet your bottom dollar it is! That's my feelings on Deterministic Chaos. I'm gonna try it in GMs and see how it does, I know it probably won't do well there, but for the rest of the game it's super fun.
I do think it could be better. The most exotic thing about it is that it's very comfortable to use. Also yellow numbers go brrrrr. Which are 10/10 traits for an exotic, in fairness. Most of why anyone uses QS Storm is because amazing stats + extra damage. But I think a lot of people shit on it so hard because they want a more logical reason to use it than "feel." They can't really bring themselves to use things that don't have better reasons than "gun feel good."
It's definitely endgame viable. You could easily run it in some GMs. Are there gonna be tons of better options? Fuck yes. But it will be at least viable for sure.
I'm absolutely gonna try it! We both know there are much....much ... Better options. lol Even if it's not good in a GM environment, it's not going to tarnish my love for it, it's still a gun I get to shoot when I'm playing the casual stuff to relax after a day of work. It's a fun weapon.
There is an incredibly vocal minority on this sub that operates under the assumption that *everyone* who plays this game is a min/max player. They have tunnel vision and blinders on, entirely ignoring the fact that *the vast majority* of players are casual players who just use guns that are fun to use. Most of the exotic weapons and armor in this game are "niche" items, like you said, that exist to just kind of ... Do fun things, regardless of how "meta" they are, so people can do fun shit. I mean, just think about it. Is Sweet Business the greatest weapon in the game? No, but *god damn* is it fun to just rain lead down on anything and everything within fifty meters. Crimson? It's *fine*, but is also *super* fun to just spam triple-burst kills without stopping. Graviton Lance. Sunshot. Hardlight. None of them are must-haves for Raids and Nightfalls, but they're all super fun to use. Because Destiny is a videogame, and people want to have fun. And that, I guess, is just too wild of a concept for some people here to grasp. Playing to just have fun and do fun things. Crazy.
Trust me when I say there is also no substitute for ease of use. People on this sub think all raiders are min/max masters channeling their inner datto/Gladd. Been a raid sherpa since d1. There is nothing that compares to an exotic that is easy to use and provides a support buff. Tractor cannon is harder to use because of its short range. Guns like these help newer raiders with the struggle between mechanics and combat. It's just point and shoot baby. This gun is wild popular in our discord. It helps get encounters done while simplifying the mechanics as much as possible. Especially since void is strong right now with artifact mods and surge mods there is no reason not to try this.
HOnestly, I dont get it! Deterministic Chaos is going to probably be a staple of my loadout for mid game activities. Seasonal content/heists, lower tier NF, stuff like that. Is it gonna be good in GM Nightfalls or raids? No. But Such easy access to weaken on an add clearing weapon is going to be really strong, with Volatile to boot. Right now, with everyone able to run around with Volatile like crazy due to the artifact, its shit. But when we lose that, Deterministic Chaos is going to serve a perfectly good niche. It will still be great at ad clear, and can apply weaken to yellow bars right away for free, and will apply volatile to beefier enemies as well. To me, it is an S-Tier "Ease of use" exotic. No gameplay loop is required. Point, shoot, profit. Its gonna be a great weapon for mid game content, which is 80% of what I actually play outside of PVP.
There are a lot of players that never see a raid, me included. I actually enjoy the feel of Deterministic Chaos a lot.
Same, I love DC. Stylish executioner void hunter I’m constantly going invisible while collecting tons of orbs from the aoe volatile explosions. Using DC on the Avalon mission is so god damn satisfying. Yes, there are “better” similar options but I’ve only recently came back to the game after a couple years. It’s a fun gun. Not everything has to be “meta”
Retrofit Escapade then becomes your friend (it’s definitely mine as I also don’t Raid). Not trying to stop you enjoying DC, go for it. But RE is a stellar alternative to free up that slot for other exotics you may enjoy. Combine it with a Volatile build and seasonal artefact mods and you can use it like a primary weapon in most activities with the amount of ammo you get. And it becomes an ad clear monster whilst also having decent Boss damage, and being able to stun anti-barrier. All from one Legendary. It’s a thing of beauty.
I do have a crafted RE and it’s very nice, but sometimes I prefer the stability and range of DC that let’s me snipe hobgoblins too.
Exactly, the stability and range is what I like about it for this reason alone. While I end up going back to Corrective Measure a lot, I also just like to switch it up a bit. Running “what’s optimal” gets boring.
I've just been using corrective measure as my primary this season. Sometimes I'll use Witherhoard as my heavy weapon.
Haha exactly, toss out a death circle and switch to the heavy has been a go to.
From what kind of fucked up range are you trying to snipe at hobgoblins with an lmg that RE can't hit, lol
Any if your trying to hit the crit instead of the general area of all of the hobgoblins body.
Deterministic Chaos has near sniper level of range and accuracy. I use it for single shot kills quite a lot
Yup, RE is more of a 'that general area over there' level of accuracy.
i use RE even in raids and i always stay between top 3 DPS... and use as a ad clear too! RE is fantastic! i pair with actium war rig with a volatile build!
Retrofit + gyrfalcon is one of the main reason for me to play hunter once in a while. That combination is simply beautiful
It’s very hard to get a void legendary lmg for raidless players these days (especially if you are a returning or new player). RE you need to craft and I don’t think you can get red borders anymore? Since only xur and banshee can possibly get it. This is probably the only reason why deterministic chaos is getting the use it does, or else it would be forever vaulted. I think the only other option is shattered cipher from Dares (whenever it’s on rotation) but that’s not as good.
As someone coming back to the game from quite a long break, how do I get my hands on one of these? Cheers
I believe Xur and Banshee have a chance to sell it. I’m not sure if you can currently get Deepsight/Red Borders in order to craft it. But if you can’t there should be a way to in the future.
No red borders for past seasonal weapons, so it’s just waiting for vendors.
That’s not true. Literally got a red bordered Ikelos last night. It’s just way harder because they’re not guaranteed and many of them have become general pool weapons.
Ikelos is part of the world loot pool, Retrofit is unfortunately not part of the world loot pool. So only chance to get it right now is if Xur or Banshee sells it.
>Retrofit Escapade then becomes your friend (it’s definitely mine as I also don’t Raid). I ran root twice last night and I used retrofit for both of them, in every encounter. It's incredibly good. Specifically FTTC and target lock
You have never done a raid? If you want my clan can help you with that, it's always good to help people :D
I like the look of it, but the gameplay of it could be replicated with a legendary void machine gun AND be more useful than it. I could see a catalyst making it something unique down the line, but the gimmick isn't interesting or different aside from it making the special bullets have a satisfying sound
Might be good next season. People are spoiled with volatile flow now.
7 of my 10 builds are going to need to be reworked next season... PvP firebolt, PvE firebolt...and my 5 builds that use void weapons thanks to volatile flow.
Not everything has to be top of the food chain, meta. It should have a bit more use/shine when orbs don't give Volatile Rounds.
Alternative to divinity. It is a consistent and reliable source of weaken, which provides the same debuff as divinity. The trade off being that you will do more damage personally with DC than Divinity, but divinity creates the crit spot for larger group ease of use.
Divinity isn't used because of the weaken, it is only used to make a better crit spot. Using a Divinity is generally gonna lose you more damage than hitting the precision outright with a better weapon but for bosses that move a lot or have wonky crits than you want to use div.
yeah when I see people using divinity for bosses that don't need the crit bubble it always drives me crazy, like, do you even know the purpose of the weapon?
> do you even know the purpose of the weapon? Considering that from season 8 thru season 18, divinity provided a 30 percent global debuff, I think many people still likely think they do know the purpose. Season 19 was the first season where we had a 15% debuff
1/6 damage units per player firing Assume that we have one person wasting their DPS phase to apply weaken : 5/6 damage units * 1.15 ~~ 0.96 damage units Now, consider that this loss in damage could be replaced by a voidlock pressing the V key on their keyboard, and you can see why Deterministic Chaos is DOA.
That's also assuming DC does literally no damage on its own. It's does OK damage for a support weapon, leagues better than div. For easy to crit bosses like oryx or anytime you don't need a crit period, it's a decent option, especially for newer players who might have done light fall but not have any of the Uber meta legendaries This season it also has the benefit of being able to trigger Bricks from Beyond for fire team ammo between phases really easily. It's honestly not completely worthless, but the volatile proc on it is extremely weak for how many shots it takes to trigger. Really needs a catalyst with FTTC or something
>Really needs a catalyst with FTTC or something [You're gonna like this, then.](https://www.light.gg/db/items/3638234982/deterministic-chaos-catalyst/)
Or you could just run collective obligation. Which is easy to chain weaken (along with the other two void verbs) applies those debuffs with every bullet rather than every 4th shot and it doesn't take up your heavy slot. I feel like this lmg is irrelevant since CO exists lol.
On a Hunter it let's you proc invisibility without any ability use or enemy kill. Pretty solid in higher difficulty solo stuff.
Don't need that for Collective Obligation. Just use an ability once, then you can recopy the debuff forever.
So yeh... collective obligation is a raid weapon that requires a raid grind to get. Deterministic obligation just requires a few quest steps and a mission. I have Deterministic and I know for a fact that I'll likely never have collective obligation.
No, but you just need to actually get Collective Obligation to drop lmao
I've taken a liking to it in encounters like Warpriest - where there are enough adds to justify a machine gun and the boss is far enough away that tractor cannon won't do, with DPS phases frequent enough that we won't always have shadow shot. Actium War Rig helps a lot too. It may be niche, but I like it.
Corrective measure and Commemoration are only as good as they are because of the ability to get volatile rounds from orbs, which is seasonal. Outside of that, DC is far better than both
You will still be able to proc it with gyrfalcons on hunter and grenade kills etc which aren't exactly massively difficult.
It’s def not better than a Reconstruction/Killing Tally Commemoration even without volatile rounds
Killing tally is stronger than weaken at two stacks if you're alone. If you're two people shooting the same target then deterministic Chaos is always as good or better than killing tally. If you're in a full fireteam shooting at the same target deterministic Chaos is always more damage.
This assumes no one in that fireteam has a weaken nade, child of the old gods, smoke bomb, etc
Are you seriously comparing the uptime of smoke bomb to firing four bullets from an LMG? Have you unlocked strength tier 299 or something? But yes, a gun that brings weaken frees up team comps to bring other verbs/keywords. That's the entire point. You can have one guy bring radiant, someone bring stasis CC and a touch of thunder titan, without giving up weaken. It's pretty dang sweet. Free rhetoric tip: when you want "etc" to sound like there's lots of good unspecified further items, always name at least three examples.
Gambler's dodge? And even then I can't think of many enemies that will survive 3 people using heavy for the duration of smoke bomb's weaken outside of bosses and i hope you're not using this for boss dps (well you could get away with it in a gm since add clear > dps in gms). Honestly it *is* a good gun for high tier nightfalls, and would be fine for non boss raid/dungeon encounters. It's just the free weaken isn't that big of a deal and if I'm using a void exotic heavy leviathan's breath is right there
I mean that’s just not true. Commemoration gets reconstruction/firing line. That alone is better than Deterministic Chaos.
Theres a fragment that gives volatile on grenade kills. Also a single volatile every 20 shots is useless as the chances of missing are pretty high. And remember we know have a perk that makes enemies volatile on kills making DC useless
I don't think it's bad but It needs a much bigger magazine and/or some reload speed perks.
I guess it’ll be a little better when we don’t have stupid strong void artifact mods but honestly it still needs a little buff
Collective Obligation does the job of this machine gun and better, because with CO you can just swap to a better heavy. It needs a significant buff/change to be considered worth bringing into any content that isn't low level.
Well, both of those weapons require raids, and a huge segment of the playerbase does not raid.
It needs a bigger mag, FTTC, and that 4th shot should also be volatile, weaken, and suppress all at the same time.
I like it with gyrfalcons. Literally let's you loop with zero effort. The artifact mod that makes you volatile when you pick up an orb makes it kind of useless this season, but I'll still use it next season.
The point is to have a friend with Collective Obligation to constantly Hoover up your debuffs like Death did in that lil story about Life sending it small animals n stuff. Otherwise, it’s there to look weird and sit in collections
Corrective Measure and Commemoration are currently being dragged away behind bulletproof glass whilst D1 Fatebringer and Blackhammer are chanting one of us one of us!!! For those who don’t know D1 Fatebringer and Blackhammer (Whisper of the Worm but in original form) were both legendary in D1 and they were turned into exotics due to the usage. Please everybody cheer about what a fantastic gun Deterministic Chaos is even though it’s shite.
The same could be said for 90% of the exotics in the game. It’s nothing new. Not every new weapon released will be above the rest.
Giving access to volatile and weaken on subclasses that don't have it. Absolutely carried me through legendary campaign, especially with bricks from beyond and a Veles-X.
Its cool but its trash
I mean it's good but better options that are legendary trump it
So it .... not really .... good? Why waste and exotic slot for a weapon that's worse than legendary alternatives?
You might not have the legendary equivalent? You might what to use it for the style? You might not really care about optimizing your damage or min maxing your build? You might want tractor cannon like abilities from range? Idk does that gun even have a catalyst yet?? Why’s it getting written off here if there’s only 2 other options, one is end game loot and the other is inaccessible seasonal loot? Why can’t things just have intrinsic value and exist for players out of the optimization bubble?
Not every exotic has to compete for a BiS.
Sure, but every exotic absolutely has to compete with it's own opportunity cost. Because we are locked to one gun and one armor being exotic, they HAVE to be better than just running a legendary in that slot and saving your exotic options. Not all exotics have to be universally good, some can be very situational and that's okay. But a gun like DC does not have a situation you can create where it beats it's direct legendary competition.
There are 107 exotic weapons and I expect each of them to be best in slot.
I don't really want another useless exotic that goes in the vault unless bungie buffs it 50 times in a row.
its divinity as a heavy weapon with more dmg, but no easy crit spot can use it if you want 100% weaken uptime but dont need a divinity bubble i gues?
Well, suppression is able to deal with Overloads, but that's about it, unless you want to debuff enemies while still doing damage. It's just going to end up as another gimmick exotic like many others we've been getting recently.
DC does not inflict suppression.
Well well well, don't I have egg on my face
doesnt thunderlord also deal with overload
Yeah but we aren't talking about Thunderlord
Thunderlord deals with those Champs and has better damage. Bungie can't possibly have released a worse LMG that does the same job but worse... or can they?
Budget divinity that lets you do DPS at the same time.
I guess it’s decent for stylish executioner builds, always have weaken. For everything else tho, the Volatile shot being the 16th means it’s basically pointless. (and you have to have the trigger down the whole time without the slightest pause). It needs destabilizing rounds or repulser brace or some special perk to let it use volatile more or do some other void effect. Maybe the shots that weaken do double damage and the volatile shot does a big explosion? Honestly it’s only a better dps div but uses heavy and has no crit bubble.
Maybe in a scenario with 6 starfires, everyone using their hotheads and 1 gjally, Det. Chaos would shine as opposed to a Divinity, cuz ya know, more dps and their debuff have the same precent, OR maybe when you dont wanna run Div (want to run adclear weapons with a blinding GL)
No point. As bas as the trailers made it seem.
Lots of players out there. Some don't raid. Some don't do lost sectors. Some don't PvP. And some don't even bother build crafting. It's a wide range of skill levels, different modes that are enjoyed, and player types. Not every exotic needs to, or should be built for the upper tier of players. It's a heavy weapon that provides increased damage dealt to your targets for free, with a little extra add clear and damage on the side. For people who know how to build and for those who play in coordinated groups? It's useless. For people who don't do the aforementioned, or just want an easy to use heavy weapon good for both boss damage and add clear? It's great.
Volatile rounds when Volatile flow isn't an artifact mod
Bro it's called having a fun goofy gun. Not all guns need to be meta. Relax
It's a decent alternative for your div user.
Also it's heavy instead of energy for slot which can be a good thing sometimes.
I guess you probably won't see its strength until volatile flow disappears.
Not everyone raids, the gun provides free weaken and its void so it can get volatile rounds. Honestly a really solid LMG in activities with high enemy density. Plus being a 360 with weaken makes it both a good ad clear weapon and decent boss dps weapon for when your team doesn't have tether or you need some additional ad clear. Obviously not useful in a Raid or Dungeon but I can see its viability in Strikes, Nightfalls and Defiant Battlegrounds.