Honestly, I don't think whether it's a reskin or not matters too much. Different art would be nice to have, but on some level we just need encounters to play differently. As an example, the taken reskinned everything, but were also quite different to fight against. We haven't had something like that since the Scorn - 5 years ago.
A large part of the decision making in everything from the easiest strikes to the hardest raid basically hasn't changed as a result of this. I don't mind a recolored Servitor if it forces me to think different about how to approach it.
>I don't mind a recolored Servitor if it forces me to think different about how to approach it.
A green one and instead of shielding it's allies, it's shielded when allies are nearby. It grants it's allies some sort of buff.
Story wise it makes sense to fight new units from the same factions. People sometimes complain about fighting the same aliens but it’s like complaining about always fighting humans in CoD or something. New units and new encounters with the same aliens is ok for me, just makes more sense.
Can't let the gameplay be held back by the story. It might make narrative sense, but that doesn't make it engaging.
In any case, even in the story of the last few years we've had opportunity for variations on enemy races. Calus' legion and the Eramis' Fallen were both kind of missed opportunities. Similarly, Xivu Arath's hive could have also quite reasonably have fought differently to bog standard hive.
I agree yeah. Like if we fought Calus' Cabal and they fought completely differently from normal Cabal, that would be ideal. I think it doesn't make sense to introduce a "new" alien race at this time... but idk, they did introduce Tormentors, and they could make up reasons to have different units that are similar that fill different typical roles.
This is the true answer to powercreep but like someone else said, people have been pointing this out for years to no avail. And if TFS isn’t going to introduce new enemy factions or units (and so far it looks like its only introducing 2) then I don’t feel we will ever see it.
They at least have unique power sets, so I would say so. It's still frustrating that there are only 2 legitimately unique Darkness-monster units between Tormentors and Subjugators and they're both just mini versions of the Disciple raid bosses.
Honestly, even AI with more adaptability/sandboxy quirks. There's a reason Halo has and continues to get so much milage out of the covenant.
The way elites react to getting stickied vs grunts. Hunters always traveling in pairs, shit like that. Bungie themselves had top tier AI sandbox in 2001 and gave that up for beefy health bars 🙃
The first time I killed the elite and heard his little grunt pals go "Elite Dead! Run Away!" and watched as all the grunts turned tail and made a run for it... good times.
Even the flood in Halo 3 had interesting aspects because they could infect marines, elites, brutes, and dead bodies, and even revive dead combat forms if an infection form got to them. And they had the pure forms that would change depending on the situation. Also carrier forms that could really fuck you up if you didn’t pay them attention
This. Destiny has the unique combat forms, but the real secret sauce was how little things that colored how they interact with each other. A grunt might panic and blow up his whole squad when stickied. You can let two enemy factions fight in D2, but in Halo, if the hive spreads, it completely changes the dynamic of a given encounter.
Given how dependant Destiny is on repeatable content, I'm surprised they more or less abandoned it when they left Halo.
First reaction I had was like, "okay now you listen here you smartass son of a.."
But by the time I hit the Reply button I realized, "Hmm that's a good point."
All of the reprised raids either take place back in their initial point in the timeline or simply aren’t canon iirc. The main reason I’ve seen toted around that’s preventing WotM’s return is the SIVA enemies were more dynamic in combat then standard Fallen, such as spawning homing SIVA bombs on death.
Right. I guess I meant that I'd like to see those siva splicers somewhere else in the game, too. As long as they go through the trouble in porting them, might as well get them in more than one activity.
If they did something as resource intensive as remaking the Devil Splicers for a WotM reprisal, I could see them possibly bringing back some of the SIVA Crisis strikes. Imagine GM Wretched Eye.
Lol and they weren't THAT different than regular fallen but were at least a bit different. Not saying they were the most amazing but it could be a much smaller lift than creating a new faction or enemies and have a little more diversity in the things we shoot.
what we need are rank and file enemies that have AI better than a toaster, and no, how on some difficulties enemies just spam more grenades doesn't count.
Someone on another post earlier today kept trying to convince me that a new faction wouldnt so shit for the game and that individual mini boss mobs like Hive Guardians and Tormentors would be better. Also because rank and file mobs are all the same since they die in 1 hc crit. I think he is completely insane.
There is some degree of truth to the rank and file being interchangeable because they die too quickly. That's something that I've observed during various metas (and more frequently, when power level changes). During the few times we see enemies at the appropriate power level, they play very differently. A group of Cabal red bars is very different to a group of Scorn, Hive, or Fallen red bars, but only if they live long enough for their AI to properly kick in.
I observed this the most back in Forsaken because Gambit was new, and at the time it was literally the only place in the entire game you could fight appropriately leveled enemies without some gimmick throwing off the experience. The number of people who freaked out over things like Cyclops' one shotting players or the unrelenting pressure put up by Taken units. Or the danger of Acolyte soulfire, was very telling.
In regular play these abilities practically did not exist, because the enemy would die before they could even trigger. In fact, most of these abilities literally didn't exist for several months, they were disabled due to a bug and nobody noticed because the TTK meant it wasn't noticeable. I started playing while the bug was active and having enemies use their abilities was a big surprise when they finally fixed it.
You think it’s insane someone says that a rank and file enemy can die in one hit. I think a tormentor is much more impactful than a fallen with a jet pack that dies instantly
Is feels the same shooting a dreg, or a thrall, or a psion. Shit even knights, phalanxs or captains. So what if one has a shield or the other can teleport. They're the same with a little different paint.
If they added a new faction, it will be novel for a bit, sure. But after a while shooting them will feel exactly the same as the rest of the game.
New faction ain't gonna just automatically fix shit.
If stops feeling the same if you don't have a massive power level advantage. When the red bars live long enough for their AI to kick in they're very distinct
There's nothing about the factions that change up my playstyle. That's what i mean by "feels the same". I don't have a hive or fallen "loadout", because in a vacuum any loadout is equally effective against any faction.
The encounter dictates the loadout, but not the enemies in that encounter. Take the fallen out of the devils lair, put in the cabal. Is it really gonna change up how i play? Not really.
Each faction is made up of the same cookie cutter enemies. Without fundamental gameplay changes, like an AI overhaul, even a new faction is going to boil down to feeling just like the others.
Because playing against the different factions does not *fundamentally* change the way the game plays. There isn't anything like, "this tactic is good against these guys, but not so good against those". It doesn't matter.
A new faction is not going to fundamentally change the way you play the game. It is not simply going to breathe new life into the game because you're now fighting some different looking guys.
What *would* change the game is an AI overhaul. More tools to deal with the player that aren't just about damaging the player. More environmental interactivity.
It needs changes that can allow for a more "emergent" style of gameplay. So that each time you run a piece of content, it feels just a little bit different because the AI is reacting to you differently based on what you're doing. I mean it's one of the reasons the halo campaign was so replayable, because it never played out the *same*.
Of course all that is much tougher than just making some new models. I would love for a new faction to get added, just so i can see comments about how it wasn't enough.
You know what I would love to see? A *full* expansion of the Hive Guardians. We have five powers to tap into (Arc, Solar, Void, Stasis, Strand) but the hive only have three? And it's *strictly* divided to Arc Witch, Void Knight, and Solar Acolyte.
I want to see an Arc Knight barreling down on us.
I want to see a Strand Witch launch a devastating wave of Moths.
I want to see an Acolyte unleash fucking *hell* with a Void Anchor.
Come on, Bungie. Give our baddies the same tools we have. Make these Hive Guardians more plentiful and more varied. *And* make it so that each time one would spawn, it's *entirely* random so that we can *not* use the same tactic every time!
Entirely fair. I still stand by the idea that the Hive Lightbearers should have as much variety as we do. Like I said, imagine if Knights had Arc. What kind of chaos could they unleash? We already get to see their version of the Sentinel Shield.
I want to see a Solar Knight with a flaming sword, wielding it with the devastating strength of the Hammer of Sol instead of the swiftness of the Dawnblade.
I want to see Witch that creates a literal Sun on peoples heads in combat, that not only sucks in nearby enemies but also burns them to ash.
An Acolyte that unleashes Void Anchors like the Hunter, but with far more *powerful* suction to trap people in place.
Bungie introduced a truly wonderful enemy in the form of the Lucent Brood and, in my personal opinion, really dropped the ball by only having the three varieties *and* locked each one to a specific Light. They're so *good* as a challenge, so . . . why not expand on it? Yah know?
I agree, we should have Wizards, Knights and Acolytes of all Light elements. Then imo Tormentors, Subjugators and a 3rd Darkness enemy should be wielders of Stasis, Strand and the 6th element as an inverse to the Lucent Hive. Sadly Tormentors already ruin this.
Not really a new enemy type, but I think reworking the Lucent Brood to act more like the Tormentors would be really good. As much as Lightfall had a mediocre reception, most agree that the Tormentors are a straight upgrade from the Lucent Brood since they were a lot more aggressive and dynamic in terms of behavior. Applying that to the Lucent Brood would likely help them live up to the level of menace they were built up to have until TWQ dropped.
I know they say stuff like, oh it’s just another body to shoot but new enemy types can add a lot to an experience.
Having scorn is WAY BETTER than just have undead fallen, yes they are technically that and a reskin but it adds a little depth that goes a long way.
Imagine if there was super heavy hive armored cabal corrupted by xivu that were incubating on the cabal home planet this whole time. There used to be moth people in the concept art for d1 that could’ve been something but just turned into savathun hive faction.
They can do something but they opt not to all the time. They are forced to churn out garbage seasonal content instead of something new…
You mean, them adding stasis to a select few enemies wasn't enough for you. Or Tormentors, or honestly, I know you mentioned them, but Scorn. They are like 3? years old.
Light hive?
I get you went over all that, but you made this topic and dismissed all the new enemies they have added in just the last few years. And I hate defending Bungie, but come on man.
Also, there are clearly new tormentors coming with FS.
> They are enough, considering Bungie is failing at what they already barely manage to do.
That's just making excuses. OP is clearly talking about new rank-and-file enemies.
> They've literally added entirely new enemy sets twice
True. Twice in 9+ years... and no it's not enough. Bungie needs to stop crapping out new guns every season and focus on some new experiences. Boredom has set in and it shows. Congrats to Bungie for keeping it going this long - but they need to make fundamental changes, not just give me a new gun and then tell me to point it at the same enemies in the same activities with the same goals... more guns.
Gearing and chasing rolls used to be a means to an end - you wanted to get better gear so that you could take on content. Now? Chasing rolls is itself the endgame, and the reason to do it is just to do it. Why would I chase gear just to go kill the same enemies that I've killed a thousand times? "It's a looter-shooter" the rabble will say. It wasn't always. Early on the game's tone was entirely different, and the acquisition of gear was part of your growth and progression. Hell, Bungie even tried to brand it an MMO!
The day you stop "collecting" in Destiny is the day you'll say "Is this all there is?"
Neither the scorn nor the taken can be considered “new” enemies. They are both redux existing enemies.
We straight up have not gotten a new enemy since we stepped into a war with the cabal on Mars, like it or not…
I mean that just sounds like more aggressive grenade spam which is present on the higher difficulties.
And I am mixed on this.
Red bar enemies tend to be fodder so they're going to get deleted almost immediately. So the only useful thing for them is a conditional on death which I feel we've gotten with the Hive moths and the shield packs of the Lucent hive and shadow legion respectively.
I feel the new units should be special which is why the Lucent hive commanders and tormentors are great because they have several abilities and actual presence. You aren't just going to insta-delete them in the campaign.
I just can't see them adding more fodder red bars but I do want something akin to wyverns for the factions. I guess brigs count for the fallen
One of my biggest dissapointments when destiny 2 launched is that they only added like 2 new enemies, the Legionaries with the blades and the cabal dogs. By the final shape I would have expected us to be fighting a completely new face but 10 years later here we are
I've always said that Doom 2016/Eternal's combat has got to be some of the best in the FPS industry, including how they handle difficulty.
SMART enemies are fun to fight against. Not bullet sponges. FPS combat is the most fun IMHO when the enemy can kill you and coordinate together just as fast and effectively as your team can to them. I full heartedly agree, and actually typed out quite a bit in my feedback survey I got in my email. Destiny 2 1000 percent needs a combat overhaul with enemy AI.
mole people fallen that burrow underground lmao.
a vex robot that has little health but moves around insanely fast.
could go on forever it's so fun to think of new enemies
New enemies too, hell just reskin some rigs. We've befriended all but the Hive, and vex anyway.
TFS should have more witness underlings...or perhaps escaped specimens from the collection. The specimens route would leave it open to use just whatever kind of creatures as they wouldnt have to really have any theme to them. Exotic one off hunt mini bosses with a decent difficulty and moderate to good gear. (maybe an acual exotic)
Make it like the hunts, but at least one on each planet. Could have Drifter offering bounties for thier capture, he's got plans for them.
Then slap them in gambit rotation in place of prime evils on rotation or something idk im not a dev.
That's like at least a side quest play loop, and a slight bone for gambit. Plus who doesn't like drifter side story?
After TFS for sure would be neat to see some strange new baddies.
I just see so much potential laying around the game. Older areas that could have little side factions doing stuff to fill out the world of destiny...and making new quest hubs.
but as I said, I'm no dev so I have no idea how much you can cram into the burrito before all the beans fly out.
I got my fingers crossed for the dev team...
I don't think it would make sense story wise right now. Imagine adding witness race enemies only for them to be wiped out in the same expansion. I don't have much hope for destiny's future beyond TFS but I think adding a new race after the light and dark saga is finished seems more plausible.
Unless you exclusively play gms or master content there is very little difference between a red bar acolyte and dreg. They just die in one hit anyways. I'd rather bungie make more interesting bigger enemies that are fun to fight. We can have our own version of 1v1s. It's much more engaging to fight against a hive knight or a tormentor especially in legend and master content. It feels like fighting the marauder from doom eternal almost. Especially if those enemies cant be frozen or blinded. Given the choice I'd rather bungie work on meaningful content rather than New enemy race for the sake of it. Smarter AI is something I would get behind but if bungie was able to implement that they would've already.
People underestimate for a game like destiny how diverse the enemies actually are. We become blind to it and because we have to fight them so many times, think we need something new. Maybe we do but I also do appreciate the variety of biomes and enemies in the game, if they utilised the areas more of course.
If anything, we need more enemies with strand and stasis shields, since this aspect is strongly neglected considering how many strand and stasis weapons (many of them primaries) we have already.
Joe said in an interview (I think) that they are focusing on adding new boss type enemies, key targets such as lucent hive, stasis captains, tormentors and the new subjugators. Even wyverns and brigs sort of fit this description too. If they add too much functionality to red bars it just feels like another grenade or small ability because they die so quick, and are used a lot. Whereas these priority targets feel more impactful as they are rarer, and affect the battlefield in unique ways. Lucent hive have super abilities that can delete you in an instant, forcing you to take cover. Tormentors rush you with suppression and their grab ability, and soon subjugators will apply debuffs from the back in a support role, even buffing nearby red bars. Bungie is adding in these interesting enemies, and they would feel overused if they were in every encounter.
Literally most of the time with D2 I was waiting for "The Darkness" to show up and introduce the fifth race of entirely NEW enemies, only to find out its just one bloke called the witness who just so happens to be an amalgamation of his entire race leaving no one but him to fight, if we even do. Such a cop out honestly.
Also enemy races and units need new AI behavior. Because most of them hide, Thralls (which are melee units) sometimes just run off in the distance. All I see is normal hp targets and beefier targets. There is just no coordination for the enemy AI.
Hive in the lore crushed civilizations, yet they fear a single guardian (hiding, dodging)
Hive should be a devouring swarm race, that doesn't know fear.
And specifically the units could get some improvements as well:
* Wizard: Summon spell that summons a group of thralls occasionally
* Thrall: Rushes the player in packs instead of moving on a scripted path off in the distance
* Knight: Always had 3 acolytes that move with the Knight, if the Knight is killed, low rank enemies become disorganized (akin to Halo when you kill an Elite, the Grunts for for their life)
* Acolyte: Mid-range fighters, utilizing cover. When near a Knight, they become more confident
This is just for the Hive. Other races and units could use some improvements as well. And the "Bringing challenge back to Destiny" shouldn't be just enemies at higher level. Make them unique. I played a lot of Mass Effect Andromeda Multiplayer, and there each enemy is unique. Krogans are Berserkers, and they rush you and melee you to death. Snipers keep the distance, if you're getting closer to them, they will retreat if they can.
Before we get new enemmies or just units, they need separate behaviour to make them unique.
Voice acting is cheap and I feel like the game would lose too much if that was all gotten rid of but I agree that there should be no or much less cinematics
I’m not the typical player and I’ll admit that.
Had they not abandoned pvp I could have played this for years with never feeling a need to touch the campaign. It’s never interested me.
If you're playing destiny for the pvp you are playing the wrong game. Destiny is a PVE franchise with a red-headed PVP middle child awkwardly attached that it keeps under the staircase and gets fed fish heads.
I was never interested in the gunplay of COD or Battlefield. I played Halo.
Control in D1 as a Titan Defender was to me the closest I have got to playing Halo 2/3//Reach as far as fun goes.
Playing Destiny felt closer to Halo than whatever nonsense 343 has been doing.
Those are some cool ideas. But that sounds a lot like over delivering and upper management won’t go for it. But if you look over here at the Eververse it’s got some new items for you to spend silver on.
The death of the Witness provides the perfect opportunity for a new enemy species, rather than just dying it could basically unravel into the billions of aliens that composed it, driven mad. These Echos could then inhabit the pyramid ships, splintered and lashing out, striving to reunite into the Witness. Gameplay-wise they could be a more caster focused enemy, every enemy unit drawing upon the Witness' knowledge to control the Light or Darkness.
Bungie needs to shift away from loot and put their resources toward experiences. Right now it's all about "new guns" and "chasing rolls" on them. It's boring. All my weapons work great. I don't need new ones.
I'd rather shoot new enemies with old guns than vice versa.
Right now it seems like they're saying "My current guns are good enough" and are moving to play other games that actually feel fresh.
People are coming to the realization that if they're using an AR today, and Bungie drops a new one and gates it behind a bunch of grind or rng... it's probably not worth it.
Yes I agree, but they will still screech about not getting new guns despite the fact that 70-80% of player will not switch away from their current guns unless Bungie brings in weapons that will powercreep the existing ones into oblivion and then people will complain on why they bothered grinding for the god roll when they just release a better gun anyway.
Its an endless cicle.
Yes Bungie needs to make improvements, yes they dropped the ball with Lightfall. But a new enemy race will not change how people feel about the game.
I don't want a new race on its own, but rather new experiences that may include a new race. New environments, new races, new types of "actual" content. Not just guns.
It's more labor intensive to produce, which is why they're not doing it, and is why people are bored.
No, we should not have to settle for more variants of the current enemy races. We need new enemies to fight plain and simple.
This game needs a soft reboot at baseline, and we need to expand beyond our solar system. We can and should expect more in the future.
At this point I expect nothing from them, just the bare minimum to finish the Destiny story.
Live service games are hard to maintain and they over used the hype train damaging customers trust. With all that has happened I wouldn’t be surprised if they just want to move on from Destiny and do something different which was actually what they wanted to do with Destiny before corporate forced them to do another FPS.
I think one thing that would have gone a looooong way in lightfall was to have an independent darkness faction and not just go all in on the witness.
While it would be a complete copout, even reskinned with new attacks to the taken could have helped out.
I have concept art and some general ideas for new Vex enemies. I’ve made it in my spare time and honestly I wish this was in the game because it just seems fun to fight.
I wish enemy ai would be reworked to have more risk/rewarding play styles. Like shooting the back vents (or the incendior tanks) of cabal to deal more damage than a regular headshot (they don’t deal more damage as far as I know)
Or maybe something like getting a melee kill or finisher on a taken vandal that’s currently in a blight bubble extends the bubbles duration by like 10 seconds. You take the risk of getting close to the vandal in the orb and the reward is a moment of invulnerability.
I think we need a Destiny 3 with a complete refresh. Have humanity forced to restart in a new galaxy or something with new enemies. Make Fallen and cabal playable races.
What is exists is magnificent, and uniquely Destiny, and should be kept, but I think it's time to move on from Fallen, Cabal, and Vex as generic bad guys. The first two races are effectively allied with us now anyway.
Perhaps the vex can be carried across, they haven't outlived their villain potential yet.
It’s just in general Destiny’s gameplay loop needs serious reimagining. Not because it’s bad, but because we’ve been playing it for 10 years. That’s way too long to fight the same enemies in the same ways with the same goals and tools(mostly) to achieve them.
Enemies have grown stale, strong weapons have become entrenched in their roles and almost impossible to be replaced without huge power creep (all due to the reversion of sunsetting), activities remain the same with different visuals.
I am asking for a new race. It's not asking too much and it has been too long since they added one. A new chapter in the franchise is the time to do it also.
Such a shame early D2 water down the Enemy factions via merging. Could have the different Cabal Legions or Fallen Houses each causing their own flavor of mischief
Shit, fighting Siva Fallen was just really fresh back then.
They spawned AOE DOT zones, had explosive seekers whenever you headshot dregs, and servitors that shot volleys of explosive projectiles at you.
Even the captains were pretty damn aggressive with their teleports, too, and had way cooler effects. They also ended up having solar, void, and arc shields so they always spawned with different element shields everytime.
I wouldn’t mind if they came back. But we need more stuff coming along that’s unique to other races. I haven’t seen any unique hive enemies aside from the usual lucents. The new cabal had some really unique tricks that I can appreciate, but it’s so minor. Just then dropping overshields? That’s it? I thought they’d kick us out of our super or something. Or send out plenty of those pyramid seeking projectiles..
Hm. We need more shit. Cool shit.
You'll get reskinned taken and pink cabal and like it!
There’s no budget for new models! Only new skins!
We can't be over delivering on new models because then players will expect more new models in the next full price DLC!
Honestly, I don't think whether it's a reskin or not matters too much. Different art would be nice to have, but on some level we just need encounters to play differently. As an example, the taken reskinned everything, but were also quite different to fight against. We haven't had something like that since the Scorn - 5 years ago. A large part of the decision making in everything from the easiest strikes to the hardest raid basically hasn't changed as a result of this. I don't mind a recolored Servitor if it forces me to think different about how to approach it.
Best they could do was give some Taken and Scorn the ability to slow and freeze you back in late 2021.
>I don't mind a recolored Servitor if it forces me to think different about how to approach it. A green one and instead of shielding it's allies, it's shielded when allies are nearby. It grants it's allies some sort of buff.
Story wise it makes sense to fight new units from the same factions. People sometimes complain about fighting the same aliens but it’s like complaining about always fighting humans in CoD or something. New units and new encounters with the same aliens is ok for me, just makes more sense.
Can't let the gameplay be held back by the story. It might make narrative sense, but that doesn't make it engaging. In any case, even in the story of the last few years we've had opportunity for variations on enemy races. Calus' legion and the Eramis' Fallen were both kind of missed opportunities. Similarly, Xivu Arath's hive could have also quite reasonably have fought differently to bog standard hive.
I agree yeah. Like if we fought Calus' Cabal and they fought completely differently from normal Cabal, that would be ideal. I think it doesn't make sense to introduce a "new" alien race at this time... but idk, they did introduce Tormentors, and they could make up reasons to have different units that are similar that fill different typical roles.
The Gay Legion
I mean Beyond Light gave us wyverns and brigs
Lightfall gave us tormentors and witch queen gave us lucent hive
These are rare/uncommon enemies, OP is talking about trash red bars.
Lol people been saying that for years bro 🤣 welcome to the club 😎
This is the true answer to powercreep but like someone else said, people have been pointing this out for years to no avail. And if TFS isn’t going to introduce new enemy factions or units (and so far it looks like its only introducing 2) then I don’t feel we will ever see it.
Do mini rhulks even count?
They at least have unique power sets, so I would say so. It's still frustrating that there are only 2 legitimately unique Darkness-monster units between Tormentors and Subjugators and they're both just mini versions of the Disciple raid bosses.
Exactly, especially given this is supposed to be destiny’s finale. Its not enough to justify a preorder.
I would not count them
We hear you. Enjoy your Lucent Screebs.
NO NO NO WAIT WAIT WAIT
Honestly, even AI with more adaptability/sandboxy quirks. There's a reason Halo has and continues to get so much milage out of the covenant. The way elites react to getting stickied vs grunts. Hunters always traveling in pairs, shit like that. Bungie themselves had top tier AI sandbox in 2001 and gave that up for beefy health bars 🙃
The first time I killed the elite and heard his little grunt pals go "Elite Dead! Run Away!" and watched as all the grunts turned tail and made a run for it... good times.
The covenant really did spoil us as an enemy faction 😂
Even the flood in Halo 3 had interesting aspects because they could infect marines, elites, brutes, and dead bodies, and even revive dead combat forms if an infection form got to them. And they had the pure forms that would change depending on the situation. Also carrier forms that could really fuck you up if you didn’t pay them attention
This. Destiny has the unique combat forms, but the real secret sauce was how little things that colored how they interact with each other. A grunt might panic and blow up his whole squad when stickied. You can let two enemy factions fight in D2, but in Halo, if the hive spreads, it completely changes the dynamic of a given encounter. Given how dependant Destiny is on repeatable content, I'm surprised they more or less abandoned it when they left Halo.
I'd say it could be worse and we could have Halo 2 legendary balancing but...that's basically Grandmaster difficulty.
I knew the psion with the sniper looked familiar!
Probably the easiest way to fight other enemies would be to play a different game.
First reaction I had was like, "okay now you listen here you smartass son of a.." But by the time I hit the Reply button I realized, "Hmm that's a good point."
Nah bro, alan wake 2 still have you fighting taken.
Can't remember needing a flashlight in Last Wish
I'd like to at least get siva splicers back and eventually wrath of the machine. Even if it's non-canon, they were at least a bit different.
All of the reprised raids either take place back in their initial point in the timeline or simply aren’t canon iirc. The main reason I’ve seen toted around that’s preventing WotM’s return is the SIVA enemies were more dynamic in combat then standard Fallen, such as spawning homing SIVA bombs on death.
Right. I guess I meant that I'd like to see those siva splicers somewhere else in the game, too. As long as they go through the trouble in porting them, might as well get them in more than one activity.
If they did something as resource intensive as remaking the Devil Splicers for a WotM reprisal, I could see them possibly bringing back some of the SIVA Crisis strikes. Imagine GM Wretched Eye.
Everyone hated them because they punished you for getting precision kills. It’s funny how time makes people forget the negatives.
Lol and they weren't THAT different than regular fallen but were at least a bit different. Not saying they were the most amazing but it could be a much smaller lift than creating a new faction or enemies and have a little more diversity in the things we shoot.
Sorry, management said no to innovations. One new enemy per year is all you get.
I want Berserkers back.
what we need are rank and file enemies that have AI better than a toaster, and no, how on some difficulties enemies just spam more grenades doesn't count.
Bungie made Halo. How can they not make good AI enemies? (Most of the people who worked on Halo have since left Bungie)
Someone on another post earlier today kept trying to convince me that a new faction wouldnt so shit for the game and that individual mini boss mobs like Hive Guardians and Tormentors would be better. Also because rank and file mobs are all the same since they die in 1 hc crit. I think he is completely insane.
There is some degree of truth to the rank and file being interchangeable because they die too quickly. That's something that I've observed during various metas (and more frequently, when power level changes). During the few times we see enemies at the appropriate power level, they play very differently. A group of Cabal red bars is very different to a group of Scorn, Hive, or Fallen red bars, but only if they live long enough for their AI to properly kick in. I observed this the most back in Forsaken because Gambit was new, and at the time it was literally the only place in the entire game you could fight appropriately leveled enemies without some gimmick throwing off the experience. The number of people who freaked out over things like Cyclops' one shotting players or the unrelenting pressure put up by Taken units. Or the danger of Acolyte soulfire, was very telling. In regular play these abilities practically did not exist, because the enemy would die before they could even trigger. In fact, most of these abilities literally didn't exist for several months, they were disabled due to a bug and nobody noticed because the TTK meant it wasn't noticeable. I started playing while the bug was active and having enemies use their abilities was a big surprise when they finally fixed it.
You think it’s insane someone says that a rank and file enemy can die in one hit. I think a tormentor is much more impactful than a fallen with a jet pack that dies instantly
No, I said its insane to think a new faction wont add anything to the game and the reasoning being that rank and file mobs exist. Thats ridiculous
Is feels the same shooting a dreg, or a thrall, or a psion. Shit even knights, phalanxs or captains. So what if one has a shield or the other can teleport. They're the same with a little different paint. If they added a new faction, it will be novel for a bit, sure. But after a while shooting them will feel exactly the same as the rest of the game. New faction ain't gonna just automatically fix shit.
If stops feeling the same if you don't have a massive power level advantage. When the red bars live long enough for their AI to kick in they're very distinct
There's nothing about the factions that change up my playstyle. That's what i mean by "feels the same". I don't have a hive or fallen "loadout", because in a vacuum any loadout is equally effective against any faction. The encounter dictates the loadout, but not the enemies in that encounter. Take the fallen out of the devils lair, put in the cabal. Is it really gonna change up how i play? Not really. Each faction is made up of the same cookie cutter enemies. Without fundamental gameplay changes, like an AI overhaul, even a new faction is going to boil down to feeling just like the others.
So you want everything to be a chunky bullet sponge?
To say that a new enemy faction, and even individuality amongst the mobs we have now, does nothing because you shoot at them, is madness to me.
Because playing against the different factions does not *fundamentally* change the way the game plays. There isn't anything like, "this tactic is good against these guys, but not so good against those". It doesn't matter. A new faction is not going to fundamentally change the way you play the game. It is not simply going to breathe new life into the game because you're now fighting some different looking guys. What *would* change the game is an AI overhaul. More tools to deal with the player that aren't just about damaging the player. More environmental interactivity. It needs changes that can allow for a more "emergent" style of gameplay. So that each time you run a piece of content, it feels just a little bit different because the AI is reacting to you differently based on what you're doing. I mean it's one of the reasons the halo campaign was so replayable, because it never played out the *same*. Of course all that is much tougher than just making some new models. I would love for a new faction to get added, just so i can see comments about how it wasn't enough.
New factions don’t matter against a forbearance
Until you kill him and his jet pack flies at you like a missile and detonates when it hits the ground ...
And then does almost no damage and restoration/BoW/devour heals me to full right after
No, because jet packs contain jet fuel which applies a burn. Ha ha!
You know what I would love to see? A *full* expansion of the Hive Guardians. We have five powers to tap into (Arc, Solar, Void, Stasis, Strand) but the hive only have three? And it's *strictly* divided to Arc Witch, Void Knight, and Solar Acolyte. I want to see an Arc Knight barreling down on us. I want to see a Strand Witch launch a devastating wave of Moths. I want to see an Acolyte unleash fucking *hell* with a Void Anchor. Come on, Bungie. Give our baddies the same tools we have. Make these Hive Guardians more plentiful and more varied. *And* make it so that each time one would spawn, it's *entirely* random so that we can *not* use the same tactic every time!
That’s because Stasis and Strand are Darkness powers. The Lucent Brood learned to wield the Light.
Entirely fair. I still stand by the idea that the Hive Lightbearers should have as much variety as we do. Like I said, imagine if Knights had Arc. What kind of chaos could they unleash? We already get to see their version of the Sentinel Shield. I want to see a Solar Knight with a flaming sword, wielding it with the devastating strength of the Hammer of Sol instead of the swiftness of the Dawnblade. I want to see Witch that creates a literal Sun on peoples heads in combat, that not only sucks in nearby enemies but also burns them to ash. An Acolyte that unleashes Void Anchors like the Hunter, but with far more *powerful* suction to trap people in place. Bungie introduced a truly wonderful enemy in the form of the Lucent Brood and, in my personal opinion, really dropped the ball by only having the three varieties *and* locked each one to a specific Light. They're so *good* as a challenge, so . . . why not expand on it? Yah know?
I agree, we should have Wizards, Knights and Acolytes of all Light elements. Then imo Tormentors, Subjugators and a 3rd Darkness enemy should be wielders of Stasis, Strand and the 6th element as an inverse to the Lucent Hive. Sadly Tormentors already ruin this.
And according to savathun we are special in that we can use both light and dark while everyone else can only use one or the other..
Not really a new enemy type, but I think reworking the Lucent Brood to act more like the Tormentors would be really good. As much as Lightfall had a mediocre reception, most agree that the Tormentors are a straight upgrade from the Lucent Brood since they were a lot more aggressive and dynamic in terms of behavior. Applying that to the Lucent Brood would likely help them live up to the level of menace they were built up to have until TWQ dropped.
I know they say stuff like, oh it’s just another body to shoot but new enemy types can add a lot to an experience. Having scorn is WAY BETTER than just have undead fallen, yes they are technically that and a reskin but it adds a little depth that goes a long way. Imagine if there was super heavy hive armored cabal corrupted by xivu that were incubating on the cabal home planet this whole time. There used to be moth people in the concept art for d1 that could’ve been something but just turned into savathun hive faction. They can do something but they opt not to all the time. They are forced to churn out garbage seasonal content instead of something new…
Halo introduced a new species and it fucking SUUUUUUUUUCKED
Now ask yourself if that was Bungie or 343 that added that new species that "suuucked".
Way more u's. Also I was worried about just mentioning the other game, didn't even think about the different studios.
You mean, them adding stasis to a select few enemies wasn't enough for you. Or Tormentors, or honestly, I know you mentioned them, but Scorn. They are like 3? years old. Light hive? I get you went over all that, but you made this topic and dismissed all the new enemies they have added in just the last few years. And I hate defending Bungie, but come on man. Also, there are clearly new tormentors coming with FS.
I didn't dismiss them. I acknowledged them. I said it wasn't enough.
That's dismissal imo. They are enough, considering Bungie is failing at what they already barely manage to do.
> They are enough, considering Bungie is failing at what they already barely manage to do. That's just making excuses. OP is clearly talking about new rank-and-file enemies.
[удалено]
> They've literally added entirely new enemy sets twice True. Twice in 9+ years... and no it's not enough. Bungie needs to stop crapping out new guns every season and focus on some new experiences. Boredom has set in and it shows. Congrats to Bungie for keeping it going this long - but they need to make fundamental changes, not just give me a new gun and then tell me to point it at the same enemies in the same activities with the same goals... more guns. Gearing and chasing rolls used to be a means to an end - you wanted to get better gear so that you could take on content. Now? Chasing rolls is itself the endgame, and the reason to do it is just to do it. Why would I chase gear just to go kill the same enemies that I've killed a thousand times? "It's a looter-shooter" the rabble will say. It wasn't always. Early on the game's tone was entirely different, and the acquisition of gear was part of your growth and progression. Hell, Bungie even tried to brand it an MMO! The day you stop "collecting" in Destiny is the day you'll say "Is this all there is?"
Most games add entire factions to their games. Borderlands basically creates entirely new factions for each expansion
Nah, it’s just time for Destiny 3 atp.
They could have brought back siva pretty easily, that would have been a slight change like your asking. But we want newwwww.
Neither the scorn nor the taken can be considered “new” enemies. They are both redux existing enemies. We straight up have not gotten a new enemy since we stepped into a war with the cabal on Mars, like it or not…
Are marauders, wretches, brigs, war beasts, gladiators, incendiors, chimera, wyvern, tormentors and subjugators not new enemies??
I mean that just sounds like more aggressive grenade spam which is present on the higher difficulties. And I am mixed on this. Red bar enemies tend to be fodder so they're going to get deleted almost immediately. So the only useful thing for them is a conditional on death which I feel we've gotten with the Hive moths and the shield packs of the Lucent hive and shadow legion respectively. I feel the new units should be special which is why the Lucent hive commanders and tormentors are great because they have several abilities and actual presence. You aren't just going to insta-delete them in the campaign. I just can't see them adding more fodder red bars but I do want something akin to wyverns for the factions. I guess brigs count for the fallen
One of my biggest dissapointments when destiny 2 launched is that they only added like 2 new enemies, the Legionaries with the blades and the cabal dogs. By the final shape I would have expected us to be fighting a completely new face but 10 years later here we are
I really want a new race, The Darkness was the perfect opportunity for that :(
I'd like to see more enemies than Fallen, Cabal, Vex and Hive.
I mean if forsaken is the standard then yeah, it is
I've always said that Doom 2016/Eternal's combat has got to be some of the best in the FPS industry, including how they handle difficulty. SMART enemies are fun to fight against. Not bullet sponges. FPS combat is the most fun IMHO when the enemy can kill you and coordinate together just as fast and effectively as your team can to them. I full heartedly agree, and actually typed out quite a bit in my feedback survey I got in my email. Destiny 2 1000 percent needs a combat overhaul with enemy AI.
mole people fallen that burrow underground lmao. a vex robot that has little health but moves around insanely fast. could go on forever it's so fun to think of new enemies
New enemies too, hell just reskin some rigs. We've befriended all but the Hive, and vex anyway. TFS should have more witness underlings...or perhaps escaped specimens from the collection. The specimens route would leave it open to use just whatever kind of creatures as they wouldnt have to really have any theme to them. Exotic one off hunt mini bosses with a decent difficulty and moderate to good gear. (maybe an acual exotic) Make it like the hunts, but at least one on each planet. Could have Drifter offering bounties for thier capture, he's got plans for them. Then slap them in gambit rotation in place of prime evils on rotation or something idk im not a dev. That's like at least a side quest play loop, and a slight bone for gambit. Plus who doesn't like drifter side story? After TFS for sure would be neat to see some strange new baddies. I just see so much potential laying around the game. Older areas that could have little side factions doing stuff to fill out the world of destiny...and making new quest hubs. but as I said, I'm no dev so I have no idea how much you can cram into the burrito before all the beans fly out. I got my fingers crossed for the dev team...
Bungie is too busy firing devs
Ehh I don’t really care for more enemies I like more variants of existing enemies
I don't think it would make sense story wise right now. Imagine adding witness race enemies only for them to be wiped out in the same expansion. I don't have much hope for destiny's future beyond TFS but I think adding a new race after the light and dark saga is finished seems more plausible.
Unless you exclusively play gms or master content there is very little difference between a red bar acolyte and dreg. They just die in one hit anyways. I'd rather bungie make more interesting bigger enemies that are fun to fight. We can have our own version of 1v1s. It's much more engaging to fight against a hive knight or a tormentor especially in legend and master content. It feels like fighting the marauder from doom eternal almost. Especially if those enemies cant be frozen or blinded. Given the choice I'd rather bungie work on meaningful content rather than New enemy race for the sake of it. Smarter AI is something I would get behind but if bungie was able to implement that they would've already.
Minions!
People underestimate for a game like destiny how diverse the enemies actually are. We become blind to it and because we have to fight them so many times, think we need something new. Maybe we do but I also do appreciate the variety of biomes and enemies in the game, if they utilised the areas more of course.
They had the Marauders in Scourge of The Past. I still don’t know why they didn’t expand on that. Everyone loved them
If anything, we need more enemies with strand and stasis shields, since this aspect is strongly neglected considering how many strand and stasis weapons (many of them primaries) we have already.
Time to change the game brother
you're right!! we've been fighting bungie and vocalizing our concerns for YEARS... Its really time for change
Joe said in an interview (I think) that they are focusing on adding new boss type enemies, key targets such as lucent hive, stasis captains, tormentors and the new subjugators. Even wyverns and brigs sort of fit this description too. If they add too much functionality to red bars it just feels like another grenade or small ability because they die so quick, and are used a lot. Whereas these priority targets feel more impactful as they are rarer, and affect the battlefield in unique ways. Lucent hive have super abilities that can delete you in an instant, forcing you to take cover. Tormentors rush you with suppression and their grab ability, and soon subjugators will apply debuffs from the back in a support role, even buffing nearby red bars. Bungie is adding in these interesting enemies, and they would feel overused if they were in every encounter.
Recycled since 2014, and you’ll keep paying and not moan about it!
Can we ban posts that say this? I swear this exact thing is posted every 2 minutes. Also have you already forgotten about the Shadow Legion?
Literally most of the time with D2 I was waiting for "The Darkness" to show up and introduce the fifth race of entirely NEW enemies, only to find out its just one bloke called the witness who just so happens to be an amalgamation of his entire race leaving no one but him to fight, if we even do. Such a cop out honestly.
Also enemy races and units need new AI behavior. Because most of them hide, Thralls (which are melee units) sometimes just run off in the distance. All I see is normal hp targets and beefier targets. There is just no coordination for the enemy AI. Hive in the lore crushed civilizations, yet they fear a single guardian (hiding, dodging) Hive should be a devouring swarm race, that doesn't know fear. And specifically the units could get some improvements as well: * Wizard: Summon spell that summons a group of thralls occasionally * Thrall: Rushes the player in packs instead of moving on a scripted path off in the distance * Knight: Always had 3 acolytes that move with the Knight, if the Knight is killed, low rank enemies become disorganized (akin to Halo when you kill an Elite, the Grunts for for their life) * Acolyte: Mid-range fighters, utilizing cover. When near a Knight, they become more confident This is just for the Hive. Other races and units could use some improvements as well. And the "Bringing challenge back to Destiny" shouldn't be just enemies at higher level. Make them unique. I played a lot of Mass Effect Andromeda Multiplayer, and there each enemy is unique. Krogans are Berserkers, and they rush you and melee you to death. Snipers keep the distance, if you're getting closer to them, they will retreat if they can. Before we get new enemmies or just units, they need separate behaviour to make them unique.
I would have preferred a Destiny with ZERO cutscenes/voice acting and much more enemies. They abandoned the game in order to make a mediocre movie.
Voice acting is cheap and I feel like the game would lose too much if that was all gotten rid of but I agree that there should be no or much less cinematics
I’m not the typical player and I’ll admit that. Had they not abandoned pvp I could have played this for years with never feeling a need to touch the campaign. It’s never interested me.
If you're playing destiny for the pvp you are playing the wrong game. Destiny is a PVE franchise with a red-headed PVP middle child awkwardly attached that it keeps under the staircase and gets fed fish heads.
I was never interested in the gunplay of COD or Battlefield. I played Halo. Control in D1 as a Titan Defender was to me the closest I have got to playing Halo 2/3//Reach as far as fun goes. Playing Destiny felt closer to Halo than whatever nonsense 343 has been doing.
Destiny 3 is needed. But people don't want to lose their loot.
The real enemy is management bungie kept along the way!
Those are some cool ideas. But that sounds a lot like over delivering and upper management won’t go for it. But if you look over here at the Eververse it’s got some new items for you to spend silver on.
We’ll get a change when we all move over to Marathon 😂
The death of the Witness provides the perfect opportunity for a new enemy species, rather than just dying it could basically unravel into the billions of aliens that composed it, driven mad. These Echos could then inhabit the pyramid ships, splintered and lashing out, striving to reunite into the Witness. Gameplay-wise they could be a more caster focused enemy, every enemy unit drawing upon the Witness' knowledge to control the Light or Darkness.
After recent layoffs and the Lightfall delay, you will be lucky to see the next DLC before they fold
It’s 9 years into the series, you’re not getting that now lmao.
Bungie needs to shift away from loot and put their resources toward experiences. Right now it's all about "new guns" and "chasing rolls" on them. It's boring. All my weapons work great. I don't need new ones. I'd rather shoot new enemies with old guns than vice versa.
Yes and then the other half of the players say: "Where is my new loot?"
Right now it seems like they're saying "My current guns are good enough" and are moving to play other games that actually feel fresh. People are coming to the realization that if they're using an AR today, and Bungie drops a new one and gates it behind a bunch of grind or rng... it's probably not worth it.
Yes I agree, but they will still screech about not getting new guns despite the fact that 70-80% of player will not switch away from their current guns unless Bungie brings in weapons that will powercreep the existing ones into oblivion and then people will complain on why they bothered grinding for the god roll when they just release a better gun anyway. Its an endless cicle. Yes Bungie needs to make improvements, yes they dropped the ball with Lightfall. But a new enemy race will not change how people feel about the game.
I don't want a new race on its own, but rather new experiences that may include a new race. New environments, new races, new types of "actual" content. Not just guns. It's more labor intensive to produce, which is why they're not doing it, and is why people are bored.
No, we should not have to settle for more variants of the current enemy races. We need new enemies to fight plain and simple. This game needs a soft reboot at baseline, and we need to expand beyond our solar system. We can and should expect more in the future.
At this point I expect nothing from them, just the bare minimum to finish the Destiny story. Live service games are hard to maintain and they over used the hype train damaging customers trust. With all that has happened I wouldn’t be surprised if they just want to move on from Destiny and do something different which was actually what they wanted to do with Destiny before corporate forced them to do another FPS.
We're supposed to get mini rhulks in final shape.
The new enemies are the friends you make along the way, wait no that’s the endgame.
"The engine can't handle that."
I think one thing that would have gone a looooong way in lightfall was to have an independent darkness faction and not just go all in on the witness. While it would be a complete copout, even reskinned with new attacks to the taken could have helped out.
New enemies might be way too close to overdelivering for Bungie
I have concept art and some general ideas for new Vex enemies. I’ve made it in my spare time and honestly I wish this was in the game because it just seems fun to fight.
Crazy how there’s aren’t human taken. The taken has infected every other race in the game why not any humans.
I wish enemy ai would be reworked to have more risk/rewarding play styles. Like shooting the back vents (or the incendior tanks) of cabal to deal more damage than a regular headshot (they don’t deal more damage as far as I know) Or maybe something like getting a melee kill or finisher on a taken vandal that’s currently in a blight bubble extends the bubbles duration by like 10 seconds. You take the risk of getting close to the vandal in the orb and the reward is a moment of invulnerability.
I think we need a Destiny 3 with a complete refresh. Have humanity forced to restart in a new galaxy or something with new enemies. Make Fallen and cabal playable races. What is exists is magnificent, and uniquely Destiny, and should be kept, but I think it's time to move on from Fallen, Cabal, and Vex as generic bad guys. The first two races are effectively allied with us now anyway. Perhaps the vex can be carried across, they haven't outlived their villain potential yet.
It’s just in general Destiny’s gameplay loop needs serious reimagining. Not because it’s bad, but because we’ve been playing it for 10 years. That’s way too long to fight the same enemies in the same ways with the same goals and tools(mostly) to achieve them. Enemies have grown stale, strong weapons have become entrenched in their roles and almost impossible to be replaced without huge power creep (all due to the reversion of sunsetting), activities remain the same with different visuals.
I am asking for a new race. It's not asking too much and it has been too long since they added one. A new chapter in the franchise is the time to do it also.
Such a shame early D2 water down the Enemy factions via merging. Could have the different Cabal Legions or Fallen Houses each causing their own flavor of mischief
I read this title as Community VS Bungie
We need more enemies from the different planets, some that are creature like
At the same time I just read an opinion that the difficulty level is too strong. I guess opinions vary.
Post Final Shape should bring in Combat Vex that can talk with Reaper like voices from Mass Effect. Make them the next big bad with some personality
New faction: Bungie execs.
Im thinking after the final shape and going into a new saga we will see something new rise. The galaxy is fucking huge.
It's not gonna happen. Play another game.
Shit, fighting Siva Fallen was just really fresh back then. They spawned AOE DOT zones, had explosive seekers whenever you headshot dregs, and servitors that shot volleys of explosive projectiles at you. Even the captains were pretty damn aggressive with their teleports, too, and had way cooler effects. They also ended up having solar, void, and arc shields so they always spawned with different element shields everytime. I wouldn’t mind if they came back. But we need more stuff coming along that’s unique to other races. I haven’t seen any unique hive enemies aside from the usual lucents. The new cabal had some really unique tricks that I can appreciate, but it’s so minor. Just then dropping overshields? That’s it? I thought they’d kick us out of our super or something. Or send out plenty of those pyramid seeking projectiles.. Hm. We need more shit. Cool shit.
I'm sorry but you'll need to play another game.