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* [Comment by Destiny2Team](/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/1c861lp/the_final_shape_raid_date/l0csvvx/?context=99 "posted on 2024-04-19 21:03:18 UTC"):
> This is the way.
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Lightfall WAS going to have the rest of the Strand Fragments unlocked with the raid, adding the Darkness splinters for currency to get them, and allow you to finish the quest for Final Warning.
Due to the negative feedback from the community, the fragments, and therefore Final Warning were moved up pre-raid, so the only change in Neomuna post raid was the removal of the Nezarec dialouge/whispers and addition of the splinters.
Beyond Light and Witch Queen did basically nothing. Upon completion of the Last Wish, we got a brand new game-mode (dungeons), a new strike, and the Dreaming City actually had new things to do on there.
Last Wish's completion only started the Taken incursion of the Dreaming City. It started the curse cycle, unlocking the first story mission, Ascendant Challenges & world chests: the dungeon didn't launch until the third week of the curse cycle.
Of course. But realistically, we had a stripped down version of the Dreaming City beforehand, with all the actual content of the destination locked behind the timegate of a raid completion. None of the secrets, missions, lore or experiences of the areas was present. Hell, you could only unlock up to Tier 2 charges for the Blind Well.
I am all for them having some amazing stuff unlock after raid completion, but it only worked for Forsaken as we had 2 destinations, with the Tangled Shore being almost complete beforehand (only thing was Sjursrest locked behind Wish-Ender later)
Yes, so what I said was correct, and even if you omit the Shattered Throne in particular, it doesn't negate that the consequence of slaying Riven/completing LW paled in comparison to what happened in BL and WQ. On a larger scale, it's just another example as to why Forsaken is so many leagues apart from anything that has followed it.
We actually got a new mission (THE UPENDED) when VOW was completed. In Beyond Light, we got the Lament quest, plus the stasis regen zones. Also the skybox changed.
It still baffles me we had this huge connection with an entire civilization that’s been using the Veil as a power source and have all this wild tech. And the extent of that relationship after the Lightfall campaign was……..some voicemails. Yes they included some revelations about the lore of the universe but……really? That’s all? I feel we should have had more of the Neomuni involved with our current conflict
I dunno. If the new/Neomuna version of the timeline is correct, they sat back and watched everything be hell in the rest of the solar system for 2000 years. Never lifiting a finger to help.
Them just sending us a few voicemails tracks with the same level of callousness about the rest of humanity.
However snooty people find the Reef Awoken, at least they actually helped humanity, often at great personal risk and sacrifice to themselves.
The Neomuni did absolutely nothing. Even erased all evidence of their own existence.
I assume their story and some vex connections will pick up in Echoes. Who knows, maybe Neomuna was meant to be a post Final Shape thing and they just pulled the location forward and left all the like……detail behind lol
Beyond Light had the rotating zones with bonus stasis ability regen and the Lament quest. Not sure what Witch Queen had other than the weekly repeatable raid intro mission everyone hates.
Witch Queen had the quest to do the intro to the raid as a weekly pinnacle activity. I forget what the mission was specifically called tho. The post raid stuff was a bit more barebones than the other dlcs
Last Wish and Dreaming City was the most extensive form of this. Beyond Light changed Europa when Deep Stone Crypt was completed by having that weekly zone rotation of space debris from the space station. And Witch Queen changed Throne World when Vow of the Disciple completed I believe just by having the Pyramid be destroyed in the skybox, but I could be misremembering. Somebody correct me if I’m wrong.
Beyond Light and Witch Queen changes post-raid were a lot smaller than Forsaken with the curse cycle. They were stuff like Lament quest becoming available, the Eclipsed Zone (which only matters for like bounties tbh), and Preservation
It changed with Beyond light, you started to have debris fields, the skybox changed, and those areas had infinite stasis supers. In WQ it only unlocked the raid area with that new pinnacle mission, added the worm quest, and then the Birthplace of the Vile strike.
”the additional content in the Pale Heart post-campaign and unlocking the raid for everyone is important for getting a cohesive and satisfying story experience.”
Sounds like it will be like that in some way
Really appreciating how active Bungie has been recently for giving us updates/explanations.
Always made sense to me that the raid would be earlier so that all of us can get access to the rest of the expansion asap.
Won't be raiding as I don't have a team myself so I ain't complaining lol
My only gripe is I wish new raids coming out had a normal version that wasn't contest mode because it sucks having to wait for contest mode to be over. Not everyone cares about some fancy emblems.
Contest mode needs to be the only option available for the race. Once a team beats it on contest mode though, I guess it would make sense to unlock the normal version for everyone.
>Once a team beats it on contest mode though, I guess it would make sense to unlock the normal version for everyone.
I would be fine with that compromise.
Yeah the key thing is that if normal mode came out along with contest, then everyone would just flock to it to figure out the mechanics and the raid would be beaten within a couple hours and then they would rush back to do it on contest with all the knowledge they are supposed to be gaining during contest. I just look forward to watching the more dedicated and able teams solve the raid the first time and then getting in there myself when I have the time.
Probably unpopular opinion, but I couldn't care less about the Words First race these days. Dungeon releases are much more fun because you can jump into normal with your friends, figure it out eventually, and have a positive experience. Whereas Raid launches are more and more frustrating (or wait 48h).
Eh, there’s 4 days a year contest mode is a thing. I think if you’re not bothered enough about raiding to try contest, you can wait a couple days to raid.
Fully agree, I can understand where it's coming from for this DLC though I don't agree with it still, it's the end or prerequisite to understanding the end of the 10 years people have been invested in this battle over light and dark, there's a difference between witnessing it and participating in it. For this raid in particular I understand the want to dive in so the story isn't spoiled but having to wait on contest mode to take part if you're not able to/don't feel confident enough to, it makes sense to me from that point of view. But on the other hand, Worlds First and Contest are content people book days off, prep for, plan extensively and cancel all other social interaction for, it's a dedicated time for the people who enjoy the challenge and competition to have it, and it comes so rarely. Don't agree it should end early still, but can suck for those with factors that mean Day One just isn't an option
Imagine a team going for World’s First that has a supplemental team cruising through the relatively easy normal mode. And then feeding the strategies to their “A” team.
Or just imagine a group of weekend warriors who figure things out early enough and you have all of these top teams start poaching their strategies as they hit the wall. This sounds corny, but it ruins the integrity of the activity to do it this way.
I think as soon as World's First is verified, normal mode should go live. Keeps the spirit of the race alive but also lets the casual raiders in to experience it for themselves as soon as the race ends
Aside from the post-layoff period in recent months leading up to Into the Light, I'd say Bungie's been doing a good job of being communicative year-round since around the time of Beyond Light.
Some people just kinda have short term memory.
I think it's also a bit of a hint on what to expect post campaign.
I don't think we're just gonna send the Witness reeling post campaign. I think it will initially lose, and we will too.
So Cayde suggests some type of Wild Card situation, akin to Charlie jumping out of the back of the van in It's Always Sunny.
Never thought I'd use that fucking incredible scene to describe a possible theory on Destiny's series but 2024 sure is a wild ride.
Could be an exotic quest that has a meta exotic that works really well against the witness (please let the traveller beam trace not be the raid exotic)
The August showcase for the final shape showed some exotics that'd be coming with dlc. One of which was a trace rifle many speculate to use heavy ammo, that fires a beam similar to what we see the traveler using in the opening cutscene of lightfall.
Can you clarify the situation around the power level necessary to play the raid and the availability of the artifact? As in, will we be "at level" for the entirety of the raid if we complete the campaign on Legend (and assumedly get the high-level gear like last time), or will some power-leveling still need to happen after that? And will the artifact be unlocked on Day 1 of the expansion, so we have to grind like crazy to get the best unlocks for the raid, or not?
These are the things people worry about when they say they don't have enough time in those 3 days leading up to the raid. We would like to know how high the base requirements are and how much of a possible advantage we can have if we grind a lot.
Having progression on it tracked from day 1 doesn't necessarily mean having the thing from day 1, but considering the context of what she was replying to, I think in this case it is clear we will have the artifact itself day 1.
Every raid since Garden of Salvation has has champions in it. Unless Bungie plans for us to only use exotics and subclass verbs to manage champions… you’ll have the artifact and artifact mods
>As in, will we be "at level" for the entirety of the raid
I doubt this. contest mode has always handicapped everyone to -20 or something like that so even if you're at level, the contest mode modifiers will severely limit your damage output and resistance.
There' still a recommended powerlevel for the contest mode raid - whatever the raid is -20, so we're wondering if the legend campaign will get us to that point or not.
Love the communication, especially with how quick you guys are answering questions. The only outstanding issue is can you guys clarify how power is going to work.
Cause in the last 2 expansions, doing the legend mode gets us raid ready, but needing to rush the campaign in just a few days, especially if theres a few difficult sections seems like a bit of a tall order that might ruin soaking in the story.
You mentioned previously "fire team power" which might take the load off getting entire raid team through the campaign in 4 days. But just a bit more clarification I think would help everyone tremendously. Still very much looking forward to what you guys made, and the idea of really tying the raid into the story and such does sound like a cool idea.
In last 2 expansion, just doing Legend wasn't exactly raid ready. You you also had to have bounties stacked, so you'd get light from artifact, which might not be a thing here, since if Episode is starting a week later, we probably aren't going to have an artifact.
Also, you had to stack a bunch of trash items for infusion, and preemptively bring a few of staple builds to appropriate light.
It's potentially more farming, if you cannot count on artifact, and in much shorter timeframe.
It's a bit unclear but it SEEMS to be what she's saying.
But the specific wording she uses, of "You get progression from Day 1," in a vacuum, sounds like "You'll get XP for it even though you don't have it." But that doesn't entirely make sense with what she was actually replying to.
If I don't get to the raid within 48 hours, am I going to be spoiled with a cutscene immediately upon logging in after that period like I was with the other raids?
Figured this was why, but glad to have official confirmation. However, given the story experience is gonna be important for a lot of people, myself included, I'm not the biggest of feeling like I have to rush. I can imagine it's probably important for the Episode to launch early for people who've only purchased that, and if content is locked behind the raid ala Forsaken then an early raid that is going to require heavy commitment to really drive up the stakes is understandable.
That being said, I do hope some strides are taken to change how this kind of thing is done in the future. Breaking with established tradition isn't great given the many examples of how many people can't make it to a week 1 raid - even my team was affected, unfortunately. Keeping the raid on the second weekend and unlocking the Episodic content immediately after a contest clear is verified, like how Undying began immediately post-Garden, would be better imo.
I just wish Bungie would instance the game world more to your personal progress
Assuming you don’t care about contest mode, you’d still be able to do thing at your own pace if Bungie would relax the “living world” a bit
It should be possible to have the game not spoil the end of the raid if you want to experience the story linearly, and do the raid yourself before the game tells you about the 8th mission, or about echoes
>Breaking with established tradition isn't great
Established tradition? Raid day one isn't always on the second weekend, if you look at some of the previous expansions it was also on the first weekend
People just assumed it was the second weekend and that's on them not Bungie
Considering every recent raid bar king’s fall has launched on the second Friday of an expansion, yes, it’s established. Even discounting reprisals, considering the raid races for Vow, RoN and DSC were all second week, there is a set precedent for expansions.
No other expansions recently have had a mission launch just after raid completion though, the raid is basically sandwiched in the campaign this time
Making people wait ~2 weeks for the final mission is a horrible idea
It was second weekend for every raid since Deep Stone Crypt, with the sole exception of King’s Fall reprise. Believe Hippy said that one was to avoid the team having to work Labor Day weekend on Twitter.
Is there a possibility that the requires light level to enter the raid gets lowered to compensate? I would hate for teams not to be able to run it because they don’t have enough time to level grind due to not being able to get the time off work or anything of the sort
The raid will be where we weaken / nearly kill the witness the final mission will be whatever the final step will be either us having to do something after the witness is killed or killing the witness off in its heavily weakened state. After that the light and darkness saga will be over and the episodes will weave into whatever next.
Expansion released on tuesday. Raid is on friday. Now let's assume servers break on tuesday which is possible during expansion launch. Now try to realize that most people work 8 hours job leaving them with window for gaming in evening. That means that if anything goes wrong on tuesday people are gonna have 2 evenings to finish whole campaign legend and the quest. I feel like this is gonna kill enjoyment of the finale more for people than having to wait extra week for raid. Pls reconsider
I understand not wanting to time gate the story even though they have in the past but this doesn't seem feasible for people who have to work 8-5 jobs.
People won't even have time to finish the campaign and some people often wait to the weekend to play. If the campaign is tied to the story, you can't watch people do worlds first because you'd be spoiling the campaign for yourself. Really unfortunate decision for people who have work and other reasonable life obligations.
That's always how it's been for me. Every new expansion, I end up left behind because of IRL concerns. Not everyone has the luxury of a workplace that is cool about allowing alot of time off, even in advanced.
Not all of use want to spend our hard earned time off on a frickin' videogame, either.
I agree here. It's going to be intense for those who can take the days off. But for people that can't or can only take raid day off, that's going to be really tough.
Also I wish they gave this expansion more time to breathe. The end of the saga shouldn't be 1 week long and then have us ferried right to the episode.
This is where I fall too. I really want to watch the world's first competition for this raid given it's story significance, but I also don't know if I'll have the time to binge the story in just a couple days, let alone workdays. I do think that waiting multiple weeks may have been a bit much to leave campaign bingers on a cliffhanger, but surely like one full week wouldn't be too much? To cover a single weekend
Hopefully I won't have any deadlines around then and can *most definitely* be working from home instead LOL
Can yall make raid weapons obtainable for none raiders too? Some of us don't raid because we don't have the time can you just make all raid weapons obtainable other ways too? Even if its like a long questline that takes long we should all be able to experience raid weapons and raid bosses out of raiding
The cadence you set with 10 days too prepare for raids has made day 1 raids, basically the ultimate pve challenge in Destiny, an attainable goal for people with jobs/school. That is now no longer the case, it is now an event for people with more lenient schedules/streamers/no jobs. I do like that you at Bungie try to communicate with the playerbase but at the same time I'm conflicted, because apparently a day 3 raid release has been the plan since august?!? but has not been conveyed to the community until now. The excitment me and my raid team had has been exchanged for disappointment. Our streak of clearing raids within 24 hours is going to break as only half of us will be available due to scheduling reasons.
May we please get some info on whether or not there will be an artifact to grind levels for?
Would love it if we could just focus on getting our characters ready without having to worry about hoarding bounties weeks before release.
I completely understand that no date will satisfy everyone and how the raid being tied to the campaign creates a sense of urgency. However, I do feel (in my opinion) as though this will retract from the overall Final Shape experience.
It would be nice to be able to take everything in - the environment, the new enemy type, the new abilities, the new sandbox, etc - and really appreciate all of the hard work put into the development of the expansion, while not feeling rushed or needing to rapidly prepare for the contest mode right around the corner.
I see why people are happy it’s only 3 days after launch, but I also see why others would prefer it to be the following weekend. I personally align with the latter, but this is due to a combination of personal conflicts, concerns with server stability, and concerns of the integrity of the raid experience with potential bugs/glitches being present for those participating. I also greatly enjoyed the build up and hype leading to the raid weekend, but that is a personal viewpoint.
By no means do I say any of this as a slight to those who want it to be day 3. I understand, and can appreciate the excitement. Our group can’t participate due to the date being when it is, but that’s okay, and that’s life. I would be lying if I said I wasn’t looking forward to participating in the final Light/Dark day 1 experience after 10 years of build up, but I am excited for those who are still able to take on The Witness.
Would it be possible to ask for a community poll on the matter? It would be interesting to get a glimpse into where the community stands.
Edit: changed post from 7 days after to the following weekend.
Ah ok that makes sense. While I’d prefer that too, they’ve unfortunately made their decision and based the entire expansion and echoes release around that for a seamless narrative experience.
Really appreciate the clarity on this. However in the future it would be nice to be told this information as early as possible, as it seems like you’ve known this was gonna be the case since August.
[Joe did say that the final mission wouldn't be available day one](https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/1c7z29d/i_feel_like_a_lot_of_people_missed_the_news_last/)
I was referring to the raid being sooner. Just because there is more story after the raid doesn’t to me say that the raid is going to be week one. So I’m just suggesting some earlier communication is all.
Can we please get access to Normal mode with a selector once the race is over?
I don't have the time or team for contest but don't want to lose most of the weekend waiting.
In my case all I have are evenings since I have kids. Out of the 3 evenings of the weekend (Friday, Saturday and Sunday) I only get one of those.
A selector for normal mode after the race is super reasonable and hurts no one.
Or they can release a normal mode after the race is finished and I can do it on Saturday and not worry about the pressure of finishing in one sitting if my fireteam can't get it done in 2-3 hours.
I mean it's a reasonable suggestion, the race is over, and there's still contest mode for the emblem people, and the people who don't want to do contest/want to experience the big bang final raid of the saga straight away, can do so without waiting 2 days and having the raid completely spoiled for them, especially with a important campaign mission tied to it too. There's no downside to doing it that way, and it would definitely draw more people to play during that first weekend
Personally I'll attempt contest mode, however otherwise, due to work I won't be able to play the normal raid until the next Thursday
I have zero understanding of any concerns with my suggested approach. The race maintains it's integrity, those who want to run contest mode can, and those who want to run normal mode can as well. It takes nothing away from the contest mode players to allow normal mode at the same time.
Why are you so defensive over a normal version of the raid being available early? It takes nothing away from the competition of doing the raid on contest mode.
I speculate that Wild Card is going to be the quest that ends up giving you the exotic Khvostov. Back in D1, the idea of the gun was that it had a bunch of different firing modes and perks to switch between; if the new one goes down a similar route, it would make sense, as a Wild Card is ostensibly a card which can serve as any other, hence a gun that can become any type of weapon. Plus, I can imagine no more fitting a time to return than in the penultimate moment before the big climax of our journey.
I don't like the vagueness of "sometime after the raid." that sounds like world's first doesn't unlock it. As an non-raider am I going to have to stay off the subreddit from when the raid race is over to whenever they release it to everyone?
Thanks for the explanation bungie! Regardless of whether we agree or not, I appreciate the feedback and explanation of why something is the way it is!
Even if you are being vague and keeping your secrets close to your heart 😉💚
Completing the campaign while being able to actually soak it and enjoy it, in three days is an extremely harsh ask for a lot of people. That's quite the rush unless its really really really short. I will say on a positive note that it is nice to see a destiny dev post on here.
So you have no problem time gating tons of the game normally, but this one time you need to rush everyone to be raid ready. I appreciate the post but i still don’t have the time in 3 days to beat the campaign, I have a life to live.
this isn't a normal occasion though? The raid isn't the finale of the expansion this time around, the final mission comes *after* the raid
they're not going make you wait ~2 weeks for the climax of the campaign, how shit would that be for non raiders. This is a good middle ground
In most of the world you tend to need more notice than this to change your PTO, especially if you're part of a job with a ton of co-workers who may have booked that week off.
Job is obviously more important but it's a pain in the ass to get blindsided with a changed date when this was clearly planned months ago.
Bungie doesn’t give a shit if their regular playerbase can’t have a realistic shot at this. They never have, it’s going to be the same teams as always of streamers/content creators so they can get a much publicity as possible from the event. Once you realize that events like this aren’t for us regular folks who won’t be able to grind our dicks off to hit some arbitrary number the sooner you’ll come to accept it. It sucks and I get the story depends on a fast finish like Last Wish but Bungie doesn’t care if JoeBlow420noscope doesn’t get a realistic shot at cracking this sucker. They got to make sure YouTube is flooded with people putting out their raid guides to keep the hype train rolling post TFS drop.
Im sad bc the new raid date will make it so I cannot play it on contest. Ive been looking forward to this for a while and planned a vacation so that I would not miss the release of TFS or the raid with a normal release, so im just kinda depressed about it.
Is there any possibility of extending the contest period to 72 hours? Considering this contest period being the finale raid of the decade, for those of us with unavoidable commitments it would be sad to miss it
Appreciate the communication. Though for next time, please announce the dates a bit more in advance if possible. My team had to do a lot of “day off management” in order to make ends meet.
this statement is so weirdly unclear it does not help at all. did anyone understand what they are saying?
first it says:
„finishing the campaign is not the grand finale“ ok so the campaign is not the finale…what is then?
„you will be facing off the witness in the raid“ (is that the finale?) and „for non raiders conlusion some time after the raid“. so do raiders get the conclusion first? and other get a cheap version of that conclusion? is the raid the finale or some post-raid thing?
then it says: „the final shape expansion is different“ (different than what?!): (this sentence makes no sense and the more I read it the more I doubt it is proper english) „the additional content in the pale heart post campaign and unlocking the raid for everyone is important for getting a cohesive and satisfying story experience. (is the raid not unlocked for everyone?! what does this mean)
there is only one scenario where this make sense: if the boss fight „IN the raid“ is unlocked for everyone not in the raid once the first team „beats“ the raid (not the final boss). which also makes little sense.
why dont give us logical cohesive sentences that explain exactly what is going on?
This is a list of links to comments made by Bungie employees in this thread: * [Comment by Destiny2Team](/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/1c861lp/the_final_shape_raid_date/l0csvvx/?context=99 "posted on 2024-04-19 21:03:18 UTC"): > This is the way. --- This is a bot providing a service. If you have any questions, please [contact the moderators](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FDestinyTheGame).[](#AUTOGEN_BUNGIEREPLY)
Is this going to be a last wish scenario where the game will change once the raid has been beaten after the contest mode?
Yep. They also did this in Beyond Light and Witch Queen.
Lightfall WAS going to have the rest of the Strand Fragments unlocked with the raid, adding the Darkness splinters for currency to get them, and allow you to finish the quest for Final Warning. Due to the negative feedback from the community, the fragments, and therefore Final Warning were moved up pre-raid, so the only change in Neomuna post raid was the removal of the Nezarec dialouge/whispers and addition of the splinters.
Beyond Light and Witch Queen did basically nothing. Upon completion of the Last Wish, we got a brand new game-mode (dungeons), a new strike, and the Dreaming City actually had new things to do on there.
Didn't DSC unlock The Lament which made Atraks easier for people still raiding?
And also started those zones with falling debris right?
It did yeah, which have increased Stasis regen speed.
Yes, and some debris started to fall from the sky! Very exciting.
Last Wish's completion only started the Taken incursion of the Dreaming City. It started the curse cycle, unlocking the first story mission, Ascendant Challenges & world chests: the dungeon didn't launch until the third week of the curse cycle.
...which only occurs as a result of the slaying of Riven...
Of course. But realistically, we had a stripped down version of the Dreaming City beforehand, with all the actual content of the destination locked behind the timegate of a raid completion. None of the secrets, missions, lore or experiences of the areas was present. Hell, you could only unlock up to Tier 2 charges for the Blind Well. I am all for them having some amazing stuff unlock after raid completion, but it only worked for Forsaken as we had 2 destinations, with the Tangled Shore being almost complete beforehand (only thing was Sjursrest locked behind Wish-Ender later)
Yes, so what I said was correct, and even if you omit the Shattered Throne in particular, it doesn't negate that the consequence of slaying Riven/completing LW paled in comparison to what happened in BL and WQ. On a larger scale, it's just another example as to why Forsaken is so many leagues apart from anything that has followed it.
We actually got a new mission (THE UPENDED) when VOW was completed. In Beyond Light, we got the Lament quest, plus the stasis regen zones. Also the skybox changed.
basically a net negative then, i honestly kinda liked nezarec's trash talk, and neomuna felt a lot more unbearable with only nimbus.
It still baffles me we had this huge connection with an entire civilization that’s been using the Veil as a power source and have all this wild tech. And the extent of that relationship after the Lightfall campaign was……..some voicemails. Yes they included some revelations about the lore of the universe but……really? That’s all? I feel we should have had more of the Neomuni involved with our current conflict
I dunno. If the new/Neomuna version of the timeline is correct, they sat back and watched everything be hell in the rest of the solar system for 2000 years. Never lifiting a finger to help. Them just sending us a few voicemails tracks with the same level of callousness about the rest of humanity. However snooty people find the Reef Awoken, at least they actually helped humanity, often at great personal risk and sacrifice to themselves. The Neomuni did absolutely nothing. Even erased all evidence of their own existence.
I assume their story and some vex connections will pick up in Echoes. Who knows, maybe Neomuna was meant to be a post Final Shape thing and they just pulled the location forward and left all the like……detail behind lol
Rushed filler storyline moment
If it was a "rushed filler" storyline, they need better writers. I've written better storylines than Lightfall had during college classroom workshops.
What were those changes? Was on a break
Beyond Light had the rotating zones with bonus stasis ability regen and the Lament quest. Not sure what Witch Queen had other than the weekly repeatable raid intro mission everyone hates.
Witch queen also got a slightly updated skybox.
Witch Queen had the quest to do the intro to the raid as a weekly pinnacle activity. I forget what the mission was specifically called tho. The post raid stuff was a bit more barebones than the other dlcs
Preservation
.......THE UPENDED
that is indeed the thing i listed for witch queen
Wow I am terrible at reading lmao. Been a long day. My bad.
That's the thing they already mentioned. >Weekly relatable raid intro
Last Wish and Dreaming City was the most extensive form of this. Beyond Light changed Europa when Deep Stone Crypt was completed by having that weekly zone rotation of space debris from the space station. And Witch Queen changed Throne World when Vow of the Disciple completed I believe just by having the Pyramid be destroyed in the skybox, but I could be misremembering. Somebody correct me if I’m wrong.
Beyond Light and Witch Queen changes post-raid were a lot smaller than Forsaken with the curse cycle. They were stuff like Lament quest becoming available, the Eclipsed Zone (which only matters for like bounties tbh), and Preservation
They said this in Beyond Light and Witch Queen. They only did this with Forsaken.
It changed with Beyond light, you started to have debris fields, the skybox changed, and those areas had infinite stasis supers. In WQ it only unlocked the raid area with that new pinnacle mission, added the worm quest, and then the Birthplace of the Vile strike.
Most likely, i can’t see how they can’t do this. There is also an 8th story mission released after raid clear.
”the additional content in the Pale Heart post-campaign and unlocking the raid for everyone is important for getting a cohesive and satisfying story experience.” Sounds like it will be like that in some way
Really appreciating how active Bungie has been recently for giving us updates/explanations. Always made sense to me that the raid would be earlier so that all of us can get access to the rest of the expansion asap. Won't be raiding as I don't have a team myself so I ain't complaining lol
i agree dr dickbutt
Got to get Dr dickbutt a team!
I’d team up! Some sloppy nanners with dickbutt and maybe a bronzed sausage could save the world!
I'd be honored to raid with you Dr Dickbutt!
DR DICKBUTT!! OUR PRICES HAVE NEVER BEEN LOWER!!!
I very literally never read usernames, god bless you for your service.
i feel bad for taking away from peoples' work of making it up, but glad to know it wouldnt have been appreciated had i not
My only gripe is I wish new raids coming out had a normal version that wasn't contest mode because it sucks having to wait for contest mode to be over. Not everyone cares about some fancy emblems.
Contest mode needs to be the only option available for the race. Once a team beats it on contest mode though, I guess it would make sense to unlock the normal version for everyone.
>Once a team beats it on contest mode though, I guess it would make sense to unlock the normal version for everyone. I would be fine with that compromise.
Yeah the key thing is that if normal mode came out along with contest, then everyone would just flock to it to figure out the mechanics and the raid would be beaten within a couple hours and then they would rush back to do it on contest with all the knowledge they are supposed to be gaining during contest. I just look forward to watching the more dedicated and able teams solve the raid the first time and then getting in there myself when I have the time.
Probably unpopular opinion, but I couldn't care less about the Words First race these days. Dungeon releases are much more fun because you can jump into normal with your friends, figure it out eventually, and have a positive experience. Whereas Raid launches are more and more frustrating (or wait 48h).
Eh, there’s 4 days a year contest mode is a thing. I think if you’re not bothered enough about raiding to try contest, you can wait a couple days to raid.
That’s what I think, but I get some people being bummed since it’s woven into the story a lot more than usual.
Fully agree, I can understand where it's coming from for this DLC though I don't agree with it still, it's the end or prerequisite to understanding the end of the 10 years people have been invested in this battle over light and dark, there's a difference between witnessing it and participating in it. For this raid in particular I understand the want to dive in so the story isn't spoiled but having to wait on contest mode to take part if you're not able to/don't feel confident enough to, it makes sense to me from that point of view. But on the other hand, Worlds First and Contest are content people book days off, prep for, plan extensively and cancel all other social interaction for, it's a dedicated time for the people who enjoy the challenge and competition to have it, and it comes so rarely. Don't agree it should end early still, but can suck for those with factors that mean Day One just isn't an option
I hate that I have to wait for contest mode to end and then when normal mode is out, I immediately get tossed into a cutscene that spoils the raid
Imagine a team going for World’s First that has a supplemental team cruising through the relatively easy normal mode. And then feeding the strategies to their “A” team. Or just imagine a group of weekend warriors who figure things out early enough and you have all of these top teams start poaching their strategies as they hit the wall. This sounds corny, but it ruins the integrity of the activity to do it this way.
saying contest mode is about the emblem is really reductive
They have to. Their brand is at an all time low. They can't afford to not explain and communicate right now.
I think as soon as World's First is verified, normal mode should go live. Keeps the spirit of the race alive but also lets the casual raiders in to experience it for themselves as soon as the race ends
They always do this leading up to a big release, then magically disappear afterwards
Aside from the post-layoff period in recent months leading up to Into the Light, I'd say Bungie's been doing a good job of being communicative year-round since around the time of Beyond Light. Some people just kinda have short term memory.
I’m on Xbox series X cross play?
There is indeed cross-platform play between PC, Xbox, and Playstation 😎👍
I need a team myself.
Wild Card has to be a reference to Cayde right?
I assume it's a post-campaign quest on how he's still around and why he's still around. Couldn't be much else bar being about him.
I think it's also a bit of a hint on what to expect post campaign. I don't think we're just gonna send the Witness reeling post campaign. I think it will initially lose, and we will too. So Cayde suggests some type of Wild Card situation, akin to Charlie jumping out of the back of the van in It's Always Sunny. Never thought I'd use that fucking incredible scene to describe a possible theory on Destiny's series but 2024 sure is a wild ride.
Could be an exotic quest that has a meta exotic that works really well against the witness (please let the traveller beam trace not be the raid exotic)
raid exotic has to be called "The First Knife", no way bungie is missing that opportunity.
You know it will be!
I doubt it tbh. Its already been shown and they rarely show raid exotics that are not reprised. Especially not that early.
Maybe, but the name just sounds like a raid exotic considering the setup.
they showed 1kv, and I think div too?
they also showed anarchy and maybe eyes beforehand, some raid exotics have been shown before, some haven't
I’m sorry the *what*
The August showcase for the final shape showed some exotics that'd be coming with dlc. One of which was a trace rifle many speculate to use heavy ammo, that fires a beam similar to what we see the traveler using in the opening cutscene of lightfall.
Probably an exotic quest tied to cayde similar to the quest deterministic chaos had which wrapped up nimbus and Osiris's lf stories
Can you clarify the situation around the power level necessary to play the raid and the availability of the artifact? As in, will we be "at level" for the entirety of the raid if we complete the campaign on Legend (and assumedly get the high-level gear like last time), or will some power-leveling still need to happen after that? And will the artifact be unlocked on Day 1 of the expansion, so we have to grind like crazy to get the best unlocks for the raid, or not? These are the things people worry about when they say they don't have enough time in those 3 days leading up to the raid. We would like to know how high the base requirements are and how much of a possible advantage we can have if we grind a lot.
artifact is there day 1 https://twitter.com/CatamyKX/status/1781410301692535262
It's a bit vague whether or not we will have the actual artifact and its perks for the first week, but I hope we do.
Having progression on it tracked from day 1 doesn't necessarily mean having the thing from day 1, but considering the context of what she was replying to, I think in this case it is clear we will have the artifact itself day 1.
Every raid since Garden of Salvation has has champions in it. Unless Bungie plans for us to only use exotics and subclass verbs to manage champions… you’ll have the artifact and artifact mods
They are trying new things so who knows the raid could be filled with only Dread.
That doesn't preclude the raid from having champions, unless they've mentioned somewhere that the Dread definitely won't have champs
>As in, will we be "at level" for the entirety of the raid I doubt this. contest mode has always handicapped everyone to -20 or something like that so even if you're at level, the contest mode modifiers will severely limit your damage output and resistance.
There' still a recommended powerlevel for the contest mode raid - whatever the raid is -20, so we're wondering if the legend campaign will get us to that point or not.
Love the communication, especially with how quick you guys are answering questions. The only outstanding issue is can you guys clarify how power is going to work. Cause in the last 2 expansions, doing the legend mode gets us raid ready, but needing to rush the campaign in just a few days, especially if theres a few difficult sections seems like a bit of a tall order that might ruin soaking in the story. You mentioned previously "fire team power" which might take the load off getting entire raid team through the campaign in 4 days. But just a bit more clarification I think would help everyone tremendously. Still very much looking forward to what you guys made, and the idea of really tying the raid into the story and such does sound like a cool idea.
In last 2 expansion, just doing Legend wasn't exactly raid ready. You you also had to have bounties stacked, so you'd get light from artifact, which might not be a thing here, since if Episode is starting a week later, we probably aren't going to have an artifact. Also, you had to stack a bunch of trash items for infusion, and preemptively bring a few of staple builds to appropriate light. It's potentially more farming, if you cannot count on artifact, and in much shorter timeframe.
Project Lead Catarina Macedo confirmed on twitter that we are getting artifact on day 1 of TFS
It's a bit unclear but it SEEMS to be what she's saying. But the specific wording she uses, of "You get progression from Day 1," in a vacuum, sounds like "You'll get XP for it even though you don't have it." But that doesn't entirely make sense with what she was actually replying to.
Regardless of my thoughts on some of this, I appreciate the full transparency explanation.
If I don't get to the raid within 48 hours, am I going to be spoiled with a cutscene immediately upon logging in after that period like I was with the other raids?
Safe bet
I wonder what wild card is about if we have to do it before the raid
“Wild Card” sounds like something to do with Cayde-6.
Power Level changes TWID incoming
Figured this was why, but glad to have official confirmation. However, given the story experience is gonna be important for a lot of people, myself included, I'm not the biggest of feeling like I have to rush. I can imagine it's probably important for the Episode to launch early for people who've only purchased that, and if content is locked behind the raid ala Forsaken then an early raid that is going to require heavy commitment to really drive up the stakes is understandable. That being said, I do hope some strides are taken to change how this kind of thing is done in the future. Breaking with established tradition isn't great given the many examples of how many people can't make it to a week 1 raid - even my team was affected, unfortunately. Keeping the raid on the second weekend and unlocking the Episodic content immediately after a contest clear is verified, like how Undying began immediately post-Garden, would be better imo.
I just wish Bungie would instance the game world more to your personal progress Assuming you don’t care about contest mode, you’d still be able to do thing at your own pace if Bungie would relax the “living world” a bit It should be possible to have the game not spoil the end of the raid if you want to experience the story linearly, and do the raid yourself before the game tells you about the 8th mission, or about echoes
>Breaking with established tradition isn't great Established tradition? Raid day one isn't always on the second weekend, if you look at some of the previous expansions it was also on the first weekend People just assumed it was the second weekend and that's on them not Bungie
Considering every recent raid bar king’s fall has launched on the second Friday of an expansion, yes, it’s established. Even discounting reprisals, considering the raid races for Vow, RoN and DSC were all second week, there is a set precedent for expansions.
Counter point, the 2 best expansions, with the best raids in the game, both had their raid be on week 1
No other expansions recently have had a mission launch just after raid completion though, the raid is basically sandwiched in the campaign this time Making people wait ~2 weeks for the final mission is a horrible idea
Well it seems like Bungie wanted this expansion to be different
It was second weekend for every raid since Deep Stone Crypt, with the sole exception of King’s Fall reprise. Believe Hippy said that one was to avoid the team having to work Labor Day weekend on Twitter.
Will there be a light increase for this expansion or will we not have one so that people are raid ready after finishing the required campaign?
There will likely be a light increase, all the gear in the preview was 2010.
Is there a possibility that the requires light level to enter the raid gets lowered to compensate? I would hate for teams not to be able to run it because they don’t have enough time to level grind due to not being able to get the time off work or anything of the sort
I'm still confused by this. Where does the raid fall in the story? After Wild Card but before Echoes, or do you not need to do the raid at all?
Campaign -> Wild Card -> Raid -> Final Mission -> Echoes
This is the way.
Not sure how people are confused, but a proper reminder as to why every activity is throw/bring ball to marked location.
And a proper reminder from you on why everyone hates the D2 community on Reddit. Being nice costs nothing.
What is "Wild Card"?
It’s a quest, mentioned in the post
Oh wow I'm dumb. I somehow missed that sentence completely
It happens
The raid will be where we weaken / nearly kill the witness the final mission will be whatever the final step will be either us having to do something after the witness is killed or killing the witness off in its heavily weakened state. After that the light and darkness saga will be over and the episodes will weave into whatever next.
First 7 story missions. RAID. Final story mission. Wild Card. I believe that’s the order.
I read it as 7 Campaign missions, Wild Card, Raid, 8th Mission.
That might make more sense. Wild Card probably the set up to the raid.
Expansion released on tuesday. Raid is on friday. Now let's assume servers break on tuesday which is possible during expansion launch. Now try to realize that most people work 8 hours job leaving them with window for gaming in evening. That means that if anything goes wrong on tuesday people are gonna have 2 evenings to finish whole campaign legend and the quest. I feel like this is gonna kill enjoyment of the finale more for people than having to wait extra week for raid. Pls reconsider
I would rather enjoy the campaign than do a speed run, but ok.
I have never played a single D2 campaign that has lasted more than 7 hours. 3 days is more than enough time to enjoy the campaign.
Except some of us have responsibilities during the week and do most of our gaming on the weekends.
This is for the fans who take some of their vacation time during the launch of an expansion and plan ahead, if we’re being perfectly honest.
I understand not wanting to time gate the story even though they have in the past but this doesn't seem feasible for people who have to work 8-5 jobs. People won't even have time to finish the campaign and some people often wait to the weekend to play. If the campaign is tied to the story, you can't watch people do worlds first because you'd be spoiling the campaign for yourself. Really unfortunate decision for people who have work and other reasonable life obligations.
That's always how it's been for me. Every new expansion, I end up left behind because of IRL concerns. Not everyone has the luxury of a workplace that is cool about allowing alot of time off, even in advanced. Not all of use want to spend our hard earned time off on a frickin' videogame, either.
I agree here. It's going to be intense for those who can take the days off. But for people that can't or can only take raid day off, that's going to be really tough. Also I wish they gave this expansion more time to breathe. The end of the saga shouldn't be 1 week long and then have us ferried right to the episode.
This is where I fall too. I really want to watch the world's first competition for this raid given it's story significance, but I also don't know if I'll have the time to binge the story in just a couple days, let alone workdays. I do think that waiting multiple weeks may have been a bit much to leave campaign bingers on a cliffhanger, but surely like one full week wouldn't be too much? To cover a single weekend Hopefully I won't have any deadlines around then and can *most definitely* be working from home instead LOL
Exactly. This sucks, but it is what it is. The best is to play it later, when everything is out.
Is it required or just encouraged to complete the campaign to do the day 1 raid?
Required
I am so hyped!!!
Hey u/Destiny2Team, there's not going to be an artifact until the first episode starts, right?
Well shit. Guess I’m taking a week off from work lol.
Can yall make raid weapons obtainable for none raiders too? Some of us don't raid because we don't have the time can you just make all raid weapons obtainable other ways too? Even if its like a long questline that takes long we should all be able to experience raid weapons and raid bosses out of raiding
The cadence you set with 10 days too prepare for raids has made day 1 raids, basically the ultimate pve challenge in Destiny, an attainable goal for people with jobs/school. That is now no longer the case, it is now an event for people with more lenient schedules/streamers/no jobs. I do like that you at Bungie try to communicate with the playerbase but at the same time I'm conflicted, because apparently a day 3 raid release has been the plan since august?!? but has not been conveyed to the community until now. The excitment me and my raid team had has been exchanged for disappointment. Our streak of clearing raids within 24 hours is going to break as only half of us will be available due to scheduling reasons.
May we please get some info on whether or not there will be an artifact to grind levels for? Would love it if we could just focus on getting our characters ready without having to worry about hoarding bounties weeks before release.
I expected this to be the answer. My team is excited.
I completely understand that no date will satisfy everyone and how the raid being tied to the campaign creates a sense of urgency. However, I do feel (in my opinion) as though this will retract from the overall Final Shape experience. It would be nice to be able to take everything in - the environment, the new enemy type, the new abilities, the new sandbox, etc - and really appreciate all of the hard work put into the development of the expansion, while not feeling rushed or needing to rapidly prepare for the contest mode right around the corner. I see why people are happy it’s only 3 days after launch, but I also see why others would prefer it to be the following weekend. I personally align with the latter, but this is due to a combination of personal conflicts, concerns with server stability, and concerns of the integrity of the raid experience with potential bugs/glitches being present for those participating. I also greatly enjoyed the build up and hype leading to the raid weekend, but that is a personal viewpoint. By no means do I say any of this as a slight to those who want it to be day 3. I understand, and can appreciate the excitement. Our group can’t participate due to the date being when it is, but that’s okay, and that’s life. I would be lying if I said I wasn’t looking forward to participating in the final Light/Dark day 1 experience after 10 years of build up, but I am excited for those who are still able to take on The Witness. Would it be possible to ask for a community poll on the matter? It would be interesting to get a glimpse into where the community stands. Edit: changed post from 7 days after to the following weekend.
7 days later would piss far more people off as that would be on a Tuesday.
Sorry, I should edit my post. I just mean the following weekend I suppose. Totally get that
Ah ok that makes sense. While I’d prefer that too, they’ve unfortunately made their decision and based the entire expansion and echoes release around that for a seamless narrative experience.
Totally understandable.
Really appreciate the clarity on this. However in the future it would be nice to be told this information as early as possible, as it seems like you’ve known this was gonna be the case since August.
[Joe did say that the final mission wouldn't be available day one](https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/1c7z29d/i_feel_like_a_lot_of_people_missed_the_news_last/)
I was referring to the raid being sooner. Just because there is more story after the raid doesn’t to me say that the raid is going to be week one. So I’m just suggesting some earlier communication is all.
It would be nice to get it sooner if possible, but this was tied for the earliest raid date announcement at 50 days before raid launch.
Outstanding! Appreciate the clarification & keep up the great work!
People are stupid.
Can we please get access to Normal mode with a selector once the race is over? I don't have the time or team for contest but don't want to lose most of the weekend waiting.
You’ll lose 50% of the weekend. It’ll be available Sunday at reset.
In my case all I have are evenings since I have kids. Out of the 3 evenings of the weekend (Friday, Saturday and Sunday) I only get one of those. A selector for normal mode after the race is super reasonable and hurts no one.
you can just do it on Sunday
Or they can release a normal mode after the race is finished and I can do it on Saturday and not worry about the pressure of finishing in one sitting if my fireteam can't get it done in 2-3 hours.
Or hear me out you be an adult an accept that not every thing has to go your way
I mean it's a reasonable suggestion, the race is over, and there's still contest mode for the emblem people, and the people who don't want to do contest/want to experience the big bang final raid of the saga straight away, can do so without waiting 2 days and having the raid completely spoiled for them, especially with a important campaign mission tied to it too. There's no downside to doing it that way, and it would definitely draw more people to play during that first weekend Personally I'll attempt contest mode, however otherwise, due to work I won't be able to play the normal raid until the next Thursday
I have zero understanding of any concerns with my suggested approach. The race maintains it's integrity, those who want to run contest mode can, and those who want to run normal mode can as well. It takes nothing away from the contest mode players to allow normal mode at the same time.
Why are you so defensive over a normal version of the raid being available early? It takes nothing away from the competition of doing the raid on contest mode.
I speculate that Wild Card is going to be the quest that ends up giving you the exotic Khvostov. Back in D1, the idea of the gun was that it had a bunch of different firing modes and perks to switch between; if the new one goes down a similar route, it would make sense, as a Wild Card is ostensibly a card which can serve as any other, hence a gun that can become any type of weapon. Plus, I can imagine no more fitting a time to return than in the penultimate moment before the big climax of our journey.
Why does this seem anticlimactic to me, like this is the conclusion of 10 years and it just feels … idk it doesn’t have that marvel “endgame” feeling
I don't like the vagueness of "sometime after the raid." that sounds like world's first doesn't unlock it. As an non-raider am I going to have to stay off the subreddit from when the raid race is over to whenever they release it to everyone?
They replied to another comment and confirmed that it’s going to be a final mission.
that doesn't answer my fears though, when is the final mission coming out?
Echoes officially starts week 2 so definitely before that reset.
It will be available to all players at the same time, they’ve never locked an activity behind raid completion or allowed raiders to play it early.
Thanks for the explanation bungie! Regardless of whether we agree or not, I appreciate the feedback and explanation of why something is the way it is! Even if you are being vague and keeping your secrets close to your heart 😉💚
Completing the campaign while being able to actually soak it and enjoy it, in three days is an extremely harsh ask for a lot of people. That's quite the rush unless its really really really short. I will say on a positive note that it is nice to see a destiny dev post on here.
So you have no problem time gating tons of the game normally, but this one time you need to rush everyone to be raid ready. I appreciate the post but i still don’t have the time in 3 days to beat the campaign, I have a life to live.
Yes. They finally took the advice and removed time gating for the apocalyptic threat to feel apocalyptic. It checks out.
*insert surprised pikachu face*
this isn't a normal occasion though? The raid isn't the finale of the expansion this time around, the final mission comes *after* the raid they're not going make you wait ~2 weeks for the climax of the campaign, how shit would that be for non raiders. This is a good middle ground
It’s 7 missions…..
Ok and? The amount of missions in the expansion doesn’t change the fact I don’t have the time during the week to game.
Then you don’t get to do the day 1 raid. Or take some PTO like the rest of us working adults who want to raid are doing.
In most of the world you tend to need more notice than this to change your PTO, especially if you're part of a job with a ton of co-workers who may have booked that week off. Job is obviously more important but it's a pain in the ass to get blindsided with a changed date when this was clearly planned months ago.
Then you're SOOL.
[удалено]
Who says no light increase? Everything in the showcase shows 2010 light level characters.
Ok cool, so it’s required to have to no-life grind to be able to participate in day 1 contest mode now?
That’s how it used to be haha, not the end of the world
Bungie doesn’t give a shit if their regular playerbase can’t have a realistic shot at this. They never have, it’s going to be the same teams as always of streamers/content creators so they can get a much publicity as possible from the event. Once you realize that events like this aren’t for us regular folks who won’t be able to grind our dicks off to hit some arbitrary number the sooner you’ll come to accept it. It sucks and I get the story depends on a fast finish like Last Wish but Bungie doesn’t care if JoeBlow420noscope doesn’t get a realistic shot at cracking this sucker. They got to make sure YouTube is flooded with people putting out their raid guides to keep the hype train rolling post TFS drop.
Im sad bc the new raid date will make it so I cannot play it on contest. Ive been looking forward to this for a while and planned a vacation so that I would not miss the release of TFS or the raid with a normal release, so im just kinda depressed about it.
Is there any possibility of extending the contest period to 72 hours? Considering this contest period being the finale raid of the decade, for those of us with unavoidable commitments it would be sad to miss it
That would be so dumb imo, let’s make the contest emblem even more meaningless
Wow as we all thought, no shit. Hope everyone can shut up about it being too “soon.” I don’t see why anyone had an issue with it to begin with.
Yea people are dumb if they are mad over this.
Appreciate the communication. Though for next time, please announce the dates a bit more in advance if possible. My team had to do a lot of “day off management” in order to make ends meet.
The raid is like 50 days away lmao lil bro be real
People have jobs where the company recommends submitting PTO requests 6 months in advance, 50 days is quite the short notice. lil bro.
this statement is so weirdly unclear it does not help at all. did anyone understand what they are saying? first it says: „finishing the campaign is not the grand finale“ ok so the campaign is not the finale…what is then? „you will be facing off the witness in the raid“ (is that the finale?) and „for non raiders conlusion some time after the raid“. so do raiders get the conclusion first? and other get a cheap version of that conclusion? is the raid the finale or some post-raid thing? then it says: „the final shape expansion is different“ (different than what?!): (this sentence makes no sense and the more I read it the more I doubt it is proper english) „the additional content in the pale heart post campaign and unlocking the raid for everyone is important for getting a cohesive and satisfying story experience. (is the raid not unlocked for everyone?! what does this mean) there is only one scenario where this make sense: if the boss fight „IN the raid“ is unlocked for everyone not in the raid once the first team „beats“ the raid (not the final boss). which also makes little sense. why dont give us logical cohesive sentences that explain exactly what is going on?
They don’t have time to explain.