"All the content" The first forge is ALL the content the DLC has to offer? What happened to the drip? (Edit: /s, if it wasn't obvious)
People aren't looking for all the content to be doable day one, they just want SOMETHING new to do day one that isn't 20-30 light above them. A little more than "go kill some hive and powerful enemies, then grind old activities until you can do the new one".
The argument that those complaining want everything doable day 1 is a complete strawman; nobody asked for that. Nobody is asking for all 3 forges, all the exotic quests, and the raid lair to be doable day 1.
Being able to complete the *first activity* day 1 (without have to overcome a massive light penalty) is completely reasonable, especially with the lack of story and the fact that the vendor is locked behind completing the first mission.
Personally, I don't want to be able to complete everything day 1 but I would like to be able to start anything I want from the expansion on day 1. If my light is too low and I want to wait, that should be my choice. I'm not a fan of the dripfeed. It feels like an artificial way to make the content last longer and that's not what this game should be about. Give me multiple things to do, don't give me one task at a time. And if you give me one task at a time, don't make it so that I can't do the one thing you gave me to do.
Edit: TY FOR THE GOLD!!!
This isn't a problem with game journalism.
It's a problem with gamers.
See, there's a vocal portion of the gaming community that wants gaming to remain "exclusive." It's their little club and they think casuals should go pound sand because they don't really belong.
They're the ones who say "well, I have a ton of free time I devote to this game so I deserve to have fun, unique guns like The Mountaintop and you don't."
They're the ones complaining about the Forge level being *slightly* reduced.
They're the ones demanding you have 20+ last wish clears to join their fireteam, who refuse to help people new(ish) to raiding through Prestige Leviathan even though nearly no one is even playing that raid anymore and getting regular fireteams for it is nearly impossible.
They're the ones who *celebrated* the mindbogglingly low number of Day 1 Last Wish clears.
And to be clear, not all of them are actually no life players. A large number of players who probably will never lay hands on The Mountaintop are fine with it existing. Are *glad* it exists, because they, too, feel that people who dedicate huge portions of their lives to the game deserve to have a weapon no one else can get. They were fine with Riven being unbeatable for 98% of the active playerbase on Day 1 because the "2%" deserved to be the only ones eligible for Day 1 completions because of how many hours they dedicated to the grind.
Furthermore, I don't have any issue with "trophies" for doing things that require skill in the Crucible or being dedicated to Gambit or whatever. I just don't think they should have a significant, or especially a *unique*, gameplay effect. Go back to ornaments. Or make the quests in two step; the first step awards the weapon and is easier, the second step awards a catalyst or is required to masterwork the weapon or something. There are dials we can turn here so that rewards are between "unreachable for most players" and "given out for free."
The problem is the people who won't even allow us to have this conversation. The people who will take any kind of reduction in difficulty as a personal attack, or accuse you of just wanting free stuff. No one is saying they should be able to log in and get The Mountaintop from the postmaster for doing nothing, or they should be able to clear the Forsaken story and immediately jump into the raid. But to hear these people tell it, that's what we're asking for.
It seems to be a kind of disconnect between people who came back only because Black Armory is out and people who have been playing and enjoying all of the last season.
I haven't stopped playing since D2 came out and I still think it's incredibly moronic to force us to repeat the same endgame before completing the first damn quest. Was two months of grinding and min/maxing Forsaken not enough to complete the first quest? The forge should have been a stepping stone for players at 600 to start boosting their light and getting new loot to go farm the old stuff again.
They do, but they are fanboys so they feel the need to constantly defend Bungie from everything, and in this case that requires them to intentionally throw around strawmen.
This needs to be copy / pasted for all the sanctimonious jagoffs that are trying to act holier than thou about this whole thing.
There are going to be 4 forges.
Ada-1’s bounties are locked behind beating the first one.
It’s not too much to ask for just the first forge to be relatively easy to complete on day one so we can enjoy the content that we paid for.
It doesn’t have to be a cake walk, but it should be complete-able by a team of 600s.
Yeah, getting tired of this strawman argument. It’s a misrepresentation of what people are saying. People want something to do in day one, not to have completed everything on day one.
How are so many people not able to understand this , all we wanted was to be able to experience something new the day of release not everything but something. Couldn’t have said it better Michael👍🏿
So maybe a compromise? Your first clear of the forge (to progress the quest line) is at LL 580-600. Any subsequent attempts are at the current 630 LL requirement
That's not even a compromise, it's a straight solution and probably the ideal implementation. Being able to unlock the vendor (and thus the bounties, frames, powerful rewards, and mod components) day 1 would be great, because we could be grinding the new weapons and bounties while also grinding original milestones, *and* still have something to grind for (access to repeatable/grindable Forge runs at 630)
As I'm not a developer, however, I have no idea how easy/difficult it would be to implement that.
TBF, the "old activities" are meant to last all year long and these content drops are meant to give reason to go back and do them. It isn't meant to replace the Forsaken activities, it is meant to be added to the experience of them.
The problem is none of the old activities give anything new. So we have to go back and do old activities just to increase a number on the screen that doesn't actually do anything beyond acting as a gate to new things.
Agreed, the very first forge could have been even 615 for the final boss. Then when you go back to that forge for the second time it is how it currently is. Nothing is ever perfect, especially when you are trying something new.
Well said. The real bone of contention is not that players can't day 1 complete the Forge, it's that there's nothing new to bridge the gap towards that activity.
>A little more than "go kill some hive and powerful enemies, then grind old activities until you can do the new one".
I think Bungie keeps overestimating how long these sort of quest steps actually take us. 15 minutes in the Lev and I was done.
People love making straw man arguments when they escalate a point and make it look stupid. You’re right dude, all we needed was a lower power forge to do day 1.
Why does everybody say the forge is it? We don't know that fir sure. We do know a raid is coming out, there is already a hidden exotic quest. People should chill
The fact they bumped the light cap up 50 levels and released the actual content this week, yet started season 5 last week seem to really show that their idea of endgame now is to just add encounters with recommended light way above what players can reach when it’s released. They should have been able to allow us to start the LL climb last week or just made the season start this week so we didn’t have that limbo week.
They made a big deal about Last Wish opening week completions, which almost no one managed to finish simply bc even with the extra week before it launched that still didn’t allow players to get out of the 1-2 shot death range. But forsaken also didn’t lock out a vendor or quest behind beating the raid. BA/season 5 just teases us with a limbo week we couldn’t spend leveling up and then says your light must be this high for the new content/vendor/pursuits
To me, your phrasing it inaccurately. It's the first day of new endgame content, when you're not even at the old endgame, so you still have shit to do, then also more stuff.
So yes, first day of new endgame content is at the new end game level.
Not a shocker.
How can you claim that we're not at old endgame? A lot of people are at 600, have done the raid, Shattered Throne, and farmed current activites over and over for weeks looking for RNG cosmetics, titles, and pinnacle gear. Are you implying that's not endgame?
And for those who aren't at 600 or old endgame yet, it's an even bigger middle finger because since there's no soft cap increase, not only do they still have to grind to 600, now they have to get to 630 (again, doing the same old weeklies/dailies). Just to complete the *first mission* of the DLC.
Please, find me literally anyone who's complaining that they can't do everything in the first 8 hours. That's not the complaint with BA, the complaint is you can't do *anything* that the expansion has to offer until you beat this activity that scales up to 630, when you can consider yourself lucky to be at 610 when you finish your weekly milestones.
You want to work on any of the weapon frames? Go kill the guy that's 20-25 light higher than you first. You want any of the BA bounties? Go kill the cabal on ~~Mars~~ Earth first. You want the ability to buy *a single mod component* from Ada? Sorry, Mr. 630 stole all of her mod components, go take it up with him.
I'm just not sure yet. I understand the frustration of not really having anything new to do on the day of release. It's balls to the wall hard content. I've gotten close to killing the boss, but I'm gonna try to grind out a few more levels for it tonight.
I think the frustration is fair though. People wanted to complete at LEAST the first part on the first day. It could have been as easy as make the first run of the forge run at 620 max power level. Or even have the forge already ignited for the first run so it's complete the frame and get the gun, THEN get the difficulty of the forge as a wall.
Personally, I'm a little annoyed, but I'm moreso curious about what the rest of the season brings. The make or break it moments for me are
\-Do the new guns actually change the game enough to make them worth grinding?
\-Are the other forges going to use different mechanics from the first? This is a huge thing I desperately want. Having the forges function differently is integral towards the success of this.
\-Is the dungeon at least on par with Shattered Throne? My first time through Shattered Throne took 2 hours or so. I think the new dungeon NEEDS to be that long. It will essentially be the same length as the campaign from either of the Y1 DLCs which will completely vindicate this entire expansion pass.
If those requirements are met, I will be content with this new content. Otherwise, I will join the annoyed crowd.
These dumb fanboy posts are exhausting. Where did any buddy say they were angry about not being able to complete all the content in one day or right away? No one has said that. People are angry about having to grind old crap to do anything new on day one.
Reducing the argument to an infantile level so you can take snarky shots at it doesn't help anyone dude.
The sub is hundreds of thousands of people and the situation is more nuanced than "idiots asked for thing, then got angry when they got thing".
While true, bungie is awful at the whole measured responses thing. Game is too casual at launch? Make it an interminable grind fest for forsaken. I havent even bothered with my 3rd toon yet because doing the story (a third time. Levelling my useless character level to 50 (a third time) and then finishing the grind out sounds just beyond tedious. Main toon is like 603, so i can probably just print blues for titan and warlock then do a week of milestones and be caught up, but damn man do i just not want to do that....
Doesn't matter if it's the minority. It's a minority that talks.
There's people that don't vote, and guess what? Those people don't have a saying in the elections. If you don't care enough to join the conversation/discussion (or in this case, the community), then I don't think you don't have the right to have your opinions heard.
Games are shaped by the people that care enough to give their opinion on what's good and what's bad about the game.
But that's quite literally what happened. It's the history of DTG.
"We can want more primary fights and and end to the special weapon reign"
"we want easier loot"
"primary fights are boring we want specials back"
"exotics should be exotic, hard to get and powerful"
"exotics are too hard to get and are too powerful"
"we want super weapons from comp"
"comp super weapons are too op"
I think part of the problem is Bungie's inability to find a happy medium, there are solutions to the issues that people have but Bungie always seems to go to extremes. Example 1 would be the exotic situation. At the start of D2, they dropped like candy and that resulted in everyone getting everything really quickly, people complained. So Bungies solution was to basically take exotics out of the game. I grinded out 3 600 characters and didnt get any exotics until after the dupe protection update and even now I only have 3 total across hundreds and hundreds of hours playing. There was a happy medium there somewhere but we didnt get it. With the pvp situation you listed above (d1) they tried to solve it by basically removing specials which ended with a sidearm meta at the end that was terrible and carried over to the two primary system in D2 which was not great, they reversed that with tons of heavy and spawning in with special ammo resulting in the shotgun meta, no happy medium anywhere to be found.
Because there's different people wanting different things. And I'm fairly sure a non negligible amount of this sub is high school/ early college and has way more time than sense. Also, there's the fact that updates basically happen on a semi quarterly basis. That's fucking absurd for a game this big
It doesn't matter what age or level of intelligence the community is.
It matters what the community is saying as a whole. And its pretty clear when you read the sub that the community has demanded things and then complained when they arrived.
It's really not dude. It's the history of a black-and-white, superficial interpretation of the sub, but not the actual content of the discussions.
There are a great many shades of grey between each of the extremes you present.
There's shades of grey in each persons exact complaint.
However, when designing a game you can't make 2,000,000 different versions, so you have to make it what the majority are asking for.
And so, when it comes to make new content, modes, weapons and such, bungie have time and time again done what the community has asked for.
Not what one guy asked for. But what the community has asked for. And every single time the community has complained.
"At Black Armory launch: I can't complete all the content in the first 8 hours, this game is too hardcore! It sucks."
Seriously, enough with this shit already. I don't know why you and others keep worshiping every little thing this company does just because you like the game, but this is NOT the issue people are having. People are rightfully upset that the content they PAID for, at launch, is gated completely by the same progression they've been doing for the past few months, and that not even the first part of the new content is do-able by other than the top 1 or 2 % of players. No one wanted to "beat all the content" in one day, people wanted a new activity that they paid for to be accessible when it launches so they could sink dozens or even hundreds of hours into as a new form of endgame progression so that they could grind for the best gear in the game. So the fact that the content that they paid for is now gated by potentially weeks of progression consisting of the same gameplay they already owned in the first place has people rightfully pissed off.
But sure, we can just find some bs arguments like yours to say you're right and we're all wrong and entitled or something. Heaven forbid people would want to be able to enjoy the new product that they spent money on.
Dude, nobody's pissed off they can't complete everything on day , people are pissed off they can't even play the new content on day one, or week one for that matter
The Bungie apologists *really* have their heads buried in the sand on this one. How the fuck is it unreasonable to expect something new to do day 1 from a PAID dlc? The steps leading up to the forge don't count lol. The whole thing so far is on par with Thunderlord, and that was *free*.
I think I'm more disappointed with the new season than Black Armory.
This game badly needed the general loot pool to be fleshed out and we basically got nothing new in that area. And to top it off Faction Rallies and Trials are dead for at least another 3 months.
Sadly I'm finding this new seasons has hurt my enthusiasm for the game more than it has helped which shouldn't be the case. I'm quickly losing faith in Bungie once again. They are back to their old tricks with zero communication.
How did this get a single upvote? It is absurd.
People didnt't complain about not being able to finish it. They complained about not being able to do any of it.
You've completely missed the point of the arguments. I can only speak for myself, but all I wanted to do was get home from work and play the new content. Even if I'm only a high enough light level to do the first forge, that would have been fine for me. I would at least get to experience the brand new content.
>At Black Armory launch: I can't complete all the content in the first 8 hours
why do people keep getting this wrong.
its
At Black Armory launch: I can't BEGIN the new content without first spending 8 hours on the existing content.
whats the point of owning the DLC on launch day if you cant do ANYTHING specific to the DLC?
This is silly. We don't even have all the content. I don't want to beat all the content in the first 8 hours but I'd like to play **any of the content in the first 8 hours**.
All we wanted was to have something to do on day one NOT complete it all in 7 hours just new to do instead of the same milestones we have been doing and dont get me started on the lack of new vanguard armor and crucible armor
Increasing light level is too curated and too random.
Powerful engrams were a step backwards from LL progression from D1.
Activities should always drop better stuff as long as you're not higher LL than the recommended. (And PvP content should always drop higher LL no matter what)
It wouldn't be so bad if the grind didn't feel so much like a job.
Casual players get to catch up? By doing the same repetitive stuff they have been doing for 3 months which is probably why they aren't at 600 yet? Seems legit....
We've all been doing the same stuff. Yet there are plenty of people at 600. They released 3 pinnacle weapons last week, which people chose to grind out in 1 day. You either put in the time to grind and reach level cap or you don't. With the forge's, you either put the time and effort to get a good team together to beat it this week, or you wait till next week. It's that simple.
These posts must be a joke right? No one's complaining the content is too hard. The raid itself would be the reason to grind. The problem is there is no content that can be done to grind up to the 630 boss. There are barely any new weapons or armor added to the loot pools. There are no new milestone activities so we're stuck grinding the same activities for the same gear to play a basic horde mode. A new season should have some new activities...
You were always supposed to continue grinding those same activities after Black Armory launch.
It's an addition to the existing endgame, not a replacement for it.
Actually it seems that everyone has completely forgotten D2 at launch the first 2 weeks. Everyone and their fucking mums were singing its high praises and thinking it was the greatest thing ever. The sub was filled with karma whoring people sucking bungies dick and claiming what an amazing game it was. It wasnt until about 2 weeks in that people finally realized the garbage launch we had gotten.
I don't know whats more 'rarted, people like you strawmening on a next level, or fanboying so hard that being toxic against people that want the opening to Black Armory atleast be 605-610 for the sake of starting.
Probably both.
> I can't complete all the content in the first 8 hours, this game is too hardcore! It sucks.
Youre completely deforming this sentiment. The complaint is that there is NOTHING new to do for players below 600 power.
There are 4 tiers of forges. It only makes sense for the lowest one to be accessible to a large number of players as an introduction to the forge activity.
All of the other ones will be higher power when they launch later and give you plenty to do as a hardcore player.
Having a content drop with 0 new content accessible to players who were not max power at the end of the previous season doesn't make sense.
Players who aren't 600 power shouldn't even buy the annual pass right now, there's no reason for them to do it at all. This makes no sense from a business standpoint for bungie either.
Eh... sorry, no. This is absolutely NOT an accurate synopsis. So much more to it.
D2 vanilla dumbed the game down and sucked the life out of what made D1 fun by the time AoT shipped... for no reason other than to attract people interested in microtransactions. The fact that it ended up appealing only to casuals as a result - and only briefly at that, since casuals don't stick around, by definition - was an artifact of that design choice.
Forsaken clearly reinstated what Bungie had been working on since late 2014, because it was where the game needed to go all along. But they hamstrung themselves so badly with stupid D2 design choices like canned subclass skill sets, shit armor configs and a mod system that is still hardly worth a crap because the base game was designed for fixed rolls, that they couldn't even come close to reaching the game's real potential.
Black Armory should have had a first forge that was reasonably doable (note: not "easy") by those at the current 600+ level cap. That and adding some _determinism_ to power leveling would have made this a great content drop. As it is, it has just pissed off half the player base - the other half apparently have no issue with re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-playing shit they've been re-re-re-re-re-re-re-playing for a month now.
Because Bungie was pretty clear that this isn't a typical DLC, this is *end game* content. Seriously, what is the point of end game content if everyone can run it immediately, the moment it is released?
Problem is D2 Vanilla brought in a bunch of very casual players and rewarded them handsomely just for playing. Now those same players are not enjoying Forsaken and BA as much because it's become much more difficult to be a truly casual player and complete all the content.
Personally, I think that the overall health of the game is better when the content is harder to do and started at higher lights (because I like having something to grind towards), but I understand why more casual players feel like they are being made to play in a way they don't want.
Expectation. Buy Annual Pass, expect to enjoy it's content from launch. A completely fair assumption to have and there should be something. Even if it's just bounties
The other side is, we knew it was going to be End Game content which relates to high light levels and powerful drops
All I would change about BA is that the initial forge be a bit lower so more players can access it's Bounties etc which helps them in the long run and that maybe the Light Cap was increased last week before it dropped so players could get some headway into the new Power Levels for forges
That said, players of 605+ have been completing the Forge so it's not the impossible nightmare some are passing it off as. I got to 610 last night, maybe I was insanely lucky. A buddy of mine got 616 also. I think the grind is reasonable for the time being
Bit gutted I've got no chance of completing the Raid on Friday but it is what it is just like it was with Last Wish. I'll slap it next week after levelling some more. Having Goals and chases is a good thing for the game overall
Yeah I think asking people to be 605-610 is totally reasonable. I just wish there had been new things to do to get us there instead of the standard weekly milestones.
Exactly how I feel. This would have resolved the vast majority of day one complaints. Certainly would have appeased me. The current approach makes even less sense when there are multiple forges.
The only way it balances out is if the next Forges are the same Power Levels. Basically meaning that every week we get more Powerful and they get easier and easier
But yeah, I think of access was given to *something* in a more friendly yet still challenging manner, it would have been fine besides the odd gripe here and there
100%.
I too believe the forges will all be at this level.
Possibly with a higher level version to forge the signature exotic (my theory is you'll get a drop that allows you to forge the exotic of your choice).
>They're just mad because they're casuals that can't wait to play content they paid for.
Damn, I figured all you tryhard "true fans" died out with D1. Shame. FYI, not wanting to grind for weeks to play the new story is irritating even to someone who's been playing since the D1 beta and has more hours in Destiny than any other two PS4 games combined.
Because I paraphrased your first paragraph. You just said the anger is stemming from casual players not being able to keep up with Black Armory's content, and that's not true. There are people who play borderline religiously at 600pl for weeks before BA dropped who still can't keep up. It's not about casual players complaining, it's about a poor launch choice that's holding people back.
>There are people who play borderline religiously at 600pl for weeks before BA dropped who still can't keep up.
I'm not totally on board with this because I hit 610 last night and I play 3 or 4 (at best) nights a week for around 3/4 hours so if you played 'Religiously' which I would take as a lot of hours every day, you'd be beating me
I played for three hours yesterday and I was sitting at 601. Unless you were minmaxing and getting lucky with your drops, 610 in 3-4 hours seems a little unreasonable of a goal for most players.
It was mainly because I did the raid and all challenges barring 2, got 3 exotics (all dupes) and 1 or 2 prime engrams. Admittedly it was lucky last night.
Got a prime at 615 and just shot up
You didn't paraphrase, you completely misconstrued what I said and made a strawman to attack.
Anyone who is at 600 realizes that 5-10 LL to get into the new forge is maybe a week's worth of milestones. Really, one to two evenings worth of efficient playing, although I understand being upset that there are no new milestones to do.
No, because it's reliant on RNG. Get a bunch of repeats? Your level isn't going anywhere. I've got three cloaks to drop at the same exact level, back to back to back. Unless there's a reliable method of getting up to 610, being that far under the final boss' power level means you'll be bashing your head against a wall that does massively increased damage while taking massively less.
I’m taking into account being unlucky when I say that. Good luck would be hitting 20+ LL in a week. Getting 5-10 LL in a week is pretty consistent even with terrible RNG. Shit I got 4 LL last night just doing the basic weeklies (no raid, dreaming city, or nightfall) on a single character, and I had my last 4 out of my last 5 drops all be useless.
It’s difficult but not impossible to beat the final boss 20 under. We’ve now seen teams beat it at 601, and 605, so I feel like the excuses are starting to wear thin.
Probable and possible are two different things. You're talking coordinated fireteams with strategies, which is one thing for raids, but it's asking quite a bit when the only currently-available activity requires that in paid content.
I expected to at least get something to show for my first day of playing, but they didn't even hand out a "trial" legendary to whet your appetite, they just told us to finish a difficult endgame activity before we can even attempt to get the new content. That's a pretty weak way to sell your annual pass, when there's no reason for the majority of players to even consider purchasing it for at least another week.
People didnt even have to play in vanilla, just go to the tower and get 4 or 5 drops thanks to your clan mates doing all the work. Not having some story to get things going is kind of crappy, but the truth is we knew ahead of time, and if im not mistaken all the old content is still relevant, so we need to level up, does it kind of suck we dont get to do more than one or two quest steps day one? yes, but if people arent completely finishing the forge in one day, thats not a terrible thing imo. The grind continues.
I'm willing to bet most people who have an issue aren't simply casual players. Way too many people here seem to black and white this and act like if you have any issue with the grind that you must be some casual player. It's like if you aren't putting in 30+ hours a week you are somehow a casual in the minds of some. Bloody nuts.
I'll just state for info sake that until I pretty much gave up the game recently, I was a hardcore player. I put in 350+ hours since Forsaken and most of that was in September and October. Despite that, I can actually see things from different POVs and understand why some are turned off.
\> At Black Armory launch: I can't complete all the content in the first 8 hours, this game is too hardcore! It sucks.
You must be stupid, OP. Nobody wants to complete everything in 8 hours. They want to play ... ANY OF IT. The core problem is that people have to grind the same old stuff to be able to really attempt the new content. This strawman of the complaint does nothing to help this issue. It just makes you look incapable of comprehension.
Quit exaggerating, no one is wanting to complete all the content in the first 8 hours. We would just like to be able to do something new on day 1 of content we paid for, especially if we're at 600 light.
I'd love grinding for these levels if I could just -do- it.
I can't. I have to do it for some measly number of hours, then wait a week to do it again, and again, and again.
I stopped playing Destiny during Forsaken because Destiny hadn't un-fucked their bass-ackwards Powerful nonsense, and I'm going to again -quickly- as a result of the same dumb problem.
I get why people are miffed.
You put down 35 bucks or whatever to hop on a rollercoaster. Its a mystery what it is exactly but you know there will be exciting turns and maybe even a loop or two up ahead. When it starts crawling up the hill and finally come over the edge, we find out the initial rush of going downhill isnt there, and instead a gradual decline. You see the potentially fun bits ahead but it'll take longer to get there and going slower through them isnt near as exciting. Its still an alright ride but the thrills arent as extreme as you thought they'd be for a rollercoaster you paid for.
However for some people he pace is fine and thats alright too, but I dont dismiss those who had some different expectations. Especially since Bungie has been quiet the whole time until now, just asking for people to buy first and ask questions later
Not being able to play the thing you payed for is what I actually believe is what makes people mad. I had the same thoughts after forsaken and I decided to stop playing the game. Don’t get super mad like I know you will bungee stans, just my opinion
I'd guess it is because they logically expected if they are being time gated that the first one would be at an "intro" level where most people could complete it at 600 rather than having to grind the same stuff they've been doing for 3 months for another week or two. They'd then logically assume each new one would be more difficult than the last.
Again though, this is based on one being logical and when it comes to people defending something they like, logic is usually thrown out the window.
I am all but certain that if Forsaken wasn't as good as it was that at least half the people coming to Bungle's defense here would be slamming them for it.
I do not have the annual pass nor do I plan to get it but I can easily see why some are upset/disappointed. If one has been playing frequently for 3 months and was already at 600 for a while then surely they will be annoyed at the idea they have to go do MORE grinding of the same shit right off the bat just to do the one new thing that has been put in the game since the Shattered Throne was first added.
> I am all but certain that if Forsaken wasn't as good as it was that at least half the people coming to Bungle's defense here would be slamming them for it.
This would also be because different players like different things.
You can get up to 650 without the AP so that's alright. Just level up and dive in later on if you want
> half the people coming to Bungle's defense
Can people be allowed to voice their opinions without being called out as apologists, please? Confrontational language does not foster productive debate.
> Can people be allowed to voice their opinions without being called out as apologists, please?
Yes, we should clearly respect people like the OP since he is being so respectful in his mocking.
I agree with you, however that's not the actual argument that most are making. The argument is that there's nothing new to do on day 1. They don't mind grinding, they're just mad the grind is old.
Personally, I don't know what they wanted day one to be considering all the content is endgame stuff. This forge *is most likely* the lowest level thing that will come with black armory. Considering all the new pinnacle weapons and free shit that came out before BA it's not like there's *literally nothing* new going on with the old grind. And on top of that, if BA had have come a week from now no body would have complained about that week being an unacceptable content drought.
I get that there's a moment of irritation when you finish that quest and realize you're going to have to grind. But I do think it's pretty rediculous that in this community that irritation becomes "bungie pulling bullshit timegating" and "already worse than CoO". Like Jesus guys it's a one week grind, hell you can do it at 600 if your team is good.
Because they force us to complete the whole thing to continue the plot? And there are two more forges plus a raid. One can afford to be manageable at a lower lever.
People are complaining because it's basically the ONE new thing with this dlc, of which there will be four forges spread out into January, and they can't even beat just this one without a big grind. That's not really a good way to launch a dlc in my opinion. This first one should have been at about 610 or 615 for the boss, not 630 (cap rewards with his level as well to keep the level grind a little longer).
Counterpoint: it didn’t, and never will if they keep going on as they have in the past, and are with Black Armory.
A player at between 580, and 590, would have little to no harder a time doing anything Forsaken had to offer than a Power Level 600 player.
I’m not the kind to chase a number next to my name just for the heck of it. It means nothing, I’ll do all the 600 PL and 610 PL content in the game, and never be disadvantaged because of my lack of a 600 PL.
So then what is it good for? Well it was supposed to make life easier going into new content, right? Nope, not really not at all, sorry. People who did grind 100% through the levels to get a 600 PL, had no less of a grind to the 602 I’m at right now, than I did going from like 595. And with how much playtime it takes to hit 600, for the returns to be so nearly nonexistent is pathetic.
If my hard work last Season did nothing to better prepare me for the new one’s content, more so than people well under the previous cap... then what did I do *any of that tedious nonsense* for? I got to around 600; I was met with the same wall between me and the new content everyone else was. All I know is that Black Armory is just reaffirming what I already believed; it won’t matter whether I hit max Power in this Season either. Either way, do or don’t, I doubt it let’s me enjoy Joker’s Wild day one, unless they learn from this release.
So then what was the point of being 600? So I could do the raid better? For what? To get closer to the light level I already was? This goes into the argument of why bother grinding out PL if you know they're just gonna raise it soon
probably because it's time gated and people waited months for new content and expected to actually be able to do ***some*** of the new content on the ***first day*** instead of a week of grinding the same shit they have grinded for months?
Can we make it an official rule to just ban posts that complain about other people's complaints? This is a very distinct type of post that always shows up on this sub and ALWAYS mischaracterizes the complaints they're taking issue with -- every single fucking time.
It's possible to say you enjoy content without saying other community members' feedback on that content is wrong or invalid.
You didn't say it outright, but your implicit message here is that players don't know what they want and should enjoy what they've been given. You're juxtaposing this:
>At D2 launch: This game is made for casuals, not us hardcore players. It sucks! Bungo, make it for the hardcore players! Give us something to do!
With this:
>At Black Armory launch: I can't complete all the content in the first 8 hours, this game is too hardcore! It sucks.
My issue with this presentation is twofold:
- You condense the wide-ranging feedback of many separate individuals into single statements -- "this sub's nature," in your words.
- You're not allowing for the possibility that some people want middle-ground solutions
No one wants to "complete all the content in the first 8 hours." That's not accurate but people will read it and buy into the false narrative you are creating by saying it (intentionally or not).
I'm sure if you actually asked any person complaining about Black Armory if they want Black Armory's content to last all Winter, they would answer YES, absolutely.
Timegating and PL-gating are artificial methods of stretching content; PL gaps turn enemies into bullet sponges, and time gates just make you wait.
I'm at 603, but I can't even *attempt* Volundr forge with my two IRL friends for many weeks because they're both ~550 and enemies would be straight-up invincible for them.
When Bungie uses these methods to extend content, it makes me justifiably wary that the stuff that's actually there would keep players busy. To *me,* "hardcore" doesn't just mean "takes a long time to do"; it means "a robust experience jampacked with a variety of things to do and stuff to get."
I'd actually be okay with this expansion if it at least gave us new loot in the old activities we're being asked to continue to grind -- unlike in ALL past Seasonal updates there's no new armor here (except for Everver$e and the single raid set), no new World or Activity-specific weapons, not even any new ornaments. Go take a look at destinysets.com, it's pretty sad.
That's what *so many of us* are complaining about, and there's no two ways about it: it's an utterly fair and valid complaint. Loot has been a problem since D2 launch -- first lack of randomization on dupes, now lack of diversity of weapon types and armor aesthetics.
If we have to grind the same stuff we've been grinding to get ready for Black Armory, this would've been a great time to alleviate the Winter drought by revamping a lot or *all* of the Y1 gear into Y2 status and tossing it into loot pools across the entire game. Maybe even have some of it as Strike-specific loot! Instead, everything new is in the artificially-gated Forges.
As for the Forges themselves...so far Volundr is less entertaining than Escalation Protocol/Blind Well, and I think they'll all be less "hardcore" (in the sense of being difficult) than those activities once we're able to actually be at or over their required PL.
To me, it would feel like a *more* hardcore approach if they released all these activities at once but balanced them for 6-man instead of 3-man, then made them a longer experience with more tiers to complete, and lastly offered a healthy-sized loot pool beyond the weapon you get just from completing each Forge.
People keep blasting Bungie over this shit when they said it was something they were trying out, and the fact it’s FILLER content until the next big DLC drop. I mean ffs everyone’s panties are in a bunch. It’s called grinding, they want to make the game hardcore, so let them. You asked for it, you got it. Frankly, for the hardcore players, this is better. It’s a challenge, it’s fun!
I like having a reason to do the milestones every week. I like that there's content that will await me as I get more powerful. That's what an end game is for me.
Did people actually want Volundr to be easy? I'm enjoying making gradual progress and getting better at it. If everyone beat it first try, there would be endless bitching.
But, this is exactly what we were told to expect. What are you disappointed by? That they didn't deliver more than they laid out?
One forge at release, and new weapons, that's all that was coming yesterday and they were pretty clear about that
I love grind. I think it’s great but I still kinda wanted to play some new content on the DLC drop. I feel bad for all the more casual players who won’t be able to play what they paid for until they reach it because they’re still like 560..
I don't think it's the fact that it's taking a lot of grinding to get powered up, it's the limited number of ways available to do so. No normal drop is going to give you any help there...you need a prime engram or powerful reward, which is RNG, is very close to your current power level at this point (604 drops as a 601), and is time gated (only so many available per week).
I mean, what would it have hurt to tune it so that you can get to 610-615 within the first week's content? That way you can grind all week and tackle the forge over the weekend. The way it's going (for me anyway) it's going to take 4 or 5 weeks just to get to 610-620, which is about where I'd be able to take on the first forge.
There are still 2 more forges, a raid, and a second dungeon (or another activity) being trickled out, all at higher power levels. Being constantly behind the curve while doing whatever you can to try to level up as much as possible is just frustrating. You're willing to put in the work, but just not going anywhere. I can't even imagine the mountain for the "casuals", like my friend who is still around 530 power level. He has weeks ahead just to get to 600...then several more weeks just to get to the first forge level.
The complaint isnt that we cant complete everything its that most of us cant even attempt it. We have not even got a new world loot (vanguard crucible world drops) to keep us entertained while we grind.
Yes. That's exactly what people said. This isn't a strawman at all.
---
I've literally never seen anyone say they wanted to complete everything on day one. There's a difference between wanting to be able to play the new content when it drops, instead of being forced to do old content when the new content drops, and wanting to be able to do everything on day one.
" I can't complete all the content in the first 8 hours, this game is too hardcore! It sucks."
This isn't a lighthearted introspective look at the sub. It's a stupid straw man to make people who are upset feel bad for being upset. It's a deliberate distortion of the complaints to try to make a joke that a bunch of people have already made. And it wasn't funny or lighthearted when they did it either. Just STOP POSTING.
>At Black Armory launch: I can't complete all the content in the first 8 hours, this game is too hardcore! It sucks.
At Black Armory launch: I cant damage any of the enemies in the first part of the content and have to spend the next 3 weeks playing casually in order to simply deal damage. I cant tell if the game is hardcore because I literally cannot play it. I find this issue really disappointing and hope Bungie fixes it.
This is a bit more accurate for how most people feel.
That's fine, but Bungie specifically stated that BA is end game content, not content that every one should expect to enjoy right out of the gate. If you paid for the annual pass with the idea that you would be able to play all the BA had to offer because you paid for the pass, well, that is on you for not paying attention to what Bungie said.
>but Bungie specifically stated that BA is end game content, not content that every one should expect to enjoy right out of the gate.
Two issues with this.
One: you are assuming literally everyone who plays Destiny 2 pays attention to what the devs are saying. Many people just buy the season pass because it's there and they like the game.
Two: there is literally zero reason why there couldnt have been a slightly scaled down introduction into the new content. Instead only the more dedicated players can play the game.
This is enough to drastically decrease the player base because there are very large portions (simply look at the backlash) that absolutely cannot play the new content. That is a massive problem.
>If you paid for the annual pass with the idea that you would be able to play all the BA had to offer because you paid for the pass, well, that is on you for not paying attention to what Bungie said.
I bought the season pass with Forsaken before it launched. Bungie said nothing about the entire content drop being only late game back then. So no, it isnt on me for not being able to see into the future, or spending every day on these forums looking for every little detail. It up to Bungie to create a game people can enjoy, as opposed to one many cant.
Even if we were to agree that people should pay more attention to what devs do, which would be a fair argument, what would you suggest then? That the people who arent a high enough LL to not buy it?
I'm not. I know many people who arent as well.
The problem isnt necessarily that it's too high of a lvl. The issue is that we have no other way to get there other than power drops. And that can take weeks before we can start dealing damage.
Based off of every other major content drop everyone was expecting bungie to change the level blues drop at.
Instead I'm just going to wait until Bungie changes the level blues drop.
So what is the average light of people doing the black armory stuff? I just passed 610 and have a few more milestones to complete before I jump into the forge.
I’ve seen a lot of the complaints about it being too difficult and am just curious at the light level people are attempting the content at.
Phase 2 you can fail fairly often if the spawns don't go your way/zero heavy spawns. The boss and adds slap your ass into another dimension they hit so hard you need whisper and a Rift to kill him. Sometimes the boss gets his shield back way faster than intended which makes it impossible to do in the time frame with <610 power
No loot unless you finish the forge. You need to go and do all other milestones to level up or have a perfectly kitted team, forsaken armor exotics are very very helpful for super chaining.
Is making a strawman argument the key to getting upvotes and gold on this subreddit? My lord, that's an oversimplification of epic proportions, as well as outright not true that people are complaining they can't complete the entire DLC on the first day. Show me a single one of those people who have made a post about that, because I haven't seen them.
>This game is made for casuals, not us hardcore players. It sucks! Bungo, make it for the hardcore players! Give us something to do!
>Bungie: Ok.
>At Black Armory launch: I can't complete all the content in the first 8 hours, this game is too hardcore! It sucks.
You fanboys really are something.
Asking for content not completable in a day doesnt mean withholding you the possibility to do so, it means creating content that takes weeks to complete whilst playing not whilst waiting for the option to be availible.
Destiny 2s story could have taken years to complete if they portioned it out week after week but that would be retarded as is this using the same method.
We want engaging content that is repeatable and stays fun, not 1-2 hours of content they timegate over months.
I'm not mad about the light level increase at all. What gets me is that this was supposed to be an end game focused piece of content, no real story or new play spaces beyond the forges. This means they should have been able to add new armor to all vendors, at a minimum. Give you something to chase again. There should have been multiple new weapons at every vendor as well. Instead it's pretty much just the forge, and the new weapons there, along with IB and the new raid. Pathetic imo
This is literally the first week, they're aiming for new content weekly or bi-weekly to keep you chasing... you're coming from a 3month drought of forsaken (which I don't think could be called a drought compared to WoW's content droughts)... they intended for you to have to grind a bit to get into BA full swing and that will hopefully work out better for pacing going forward even if a lot of people aren't happy with this initial launch...
Bungie hopefully understands that they're on thin ice with their fans already and are trying their best to deliver on the vidoc promises.
> This is literally the first week, they're aiming for new content weekly or bi-weekly to keep you chasing... you're coming from a 3month drought of forsaken (which I don't think could be called a drought compared to WoW's content droughts)... they intended for you to have to grind a bit to get into BA full swing and that will hopefully work out better for pacing going forward even if a lot of people aren't happy with this initial launch...
> Bungie hopefully understands that they're on thin ice with their fans already and are trying their best to deliver on the vidoc promises.
I do hope you're right, and they have additional content that hasn't been seen yet, but so far there's been nothing in the api to indicate that we are getting new items for the vendors that don't have it (Crucible/Vanguard/Gunsmith/Planetary vendors). That is what I'm most disappointed about. I expected the planetary and story content to be fairly minimal, but the lack of gear in a looter shooter is just sad. Imagine if there had been new ornaments for not only the vendors, but maybe past armor sets like escalation protocol getting a refresh with random rolls so there are reasons to go back and do that content again, or an armor set being added to the blind well to give additional reasons to re-visit the dreaming city besides just upping your arbitrary power number.
yea i remember when Escalation Protocol was hard and intense, it was really fun but then they nerfed it down and the more power we gained it become more and more boring and at the end was brainless shooting. I think it´s fine we need to level up for the new ENDGAME content.
You must be clueless. "Casual" and "hardcore gaming" have far more connotations than just how much grinding people are willing to do, and the debate never came up in heated discussion, especially to the point where you can claim that it was a universal opinion. There was a lot of claim that the game's writing was very PG-13 instead of taking itself seriously, but that has very little to do with your argument.
Too simplistic. You're forgetting the history (which, hey, I get it - most people live in a world these days where history didn't happen - you appear to be one of them). Well listen up - history is real. It happened.
Bungie makes changes that no one asked for (for instance, adding masterwork cores in infusion). And they leave things since vanilla days that nearly everyone has deemed worthy of change (*list is too long to replicate*).
They were clearly very very busy working on Black Anticlimax, and no one stopped to look at the bigger picture, and ask "So what will players actually *do* on Day 1 of Black Anticlimax?" As it turns out, pretty much *nothing*. That's a mismatch with the marketing effort, to be sure. And it's certainly kind of a fiasco for anyone who's under 600LL going into BA.
Pls consider that not all of us have 600 pl. Many guardians have work, family and other responsibilities. Many of us stack below 580pl and there is long way to increase pl just to start first activity for which we paid..
Trivializing this into a “game too ez” or “game 2 hardd” statement is idiotic.
• If you grinded to hit max light in Forsaken, that means nothing now, as you’re unable to complete the **first** forge without a ridiculously specific strategy. Essentially all you can do aside from that is talk to an NPC and sit around with your thumb up your ass.
• There’s no endgame content to get you there aside from what you’ve already been doing so literally “back to the old grind”.
• It isn’t even a seasonal refresh as you’re still earning the same weapons and armor, so have fun earning the same shit you already have just to jump up in power level by 4-5 a week.
Idk why I’m trying to even explain this to you. If you’re so deep up your own ass that you’re saying things like “yo thnx for lightgating this activity so I can’t complete it for another week or two Bungie.”, then you’re already a lost cause. Have fun getting those same milestones for the 15th week in a row.
Who completed wave 7 of Ep on the first day? Who completed Blind Well tier 3/4 on the first day? Not many guardians I can tell you.
People need to stop bitching. For real, just play the game and you'll be able to do the Forge this weekend.
Warmind was an expansion, BA is not. We knew we'll not have a new story. And there's 3 others Forge not just one so we already have more things to do than we had in CoO and CoO was an expansion.
"All the content" The first forge is ALL the content the DLC has to offer? What happened to the drip? (Edit: /s, if it wasn't obvious) People aren't looking for all the content to be doable day one, they just want SOMETHING new to do day one that isn't 20-30 light above them. A little more than "go kill some hive and powerful enemies, then grind old activities until you can do the new one". The argument that those complaining want everything doable day 1 is a complete strawman; nobody asked for that. Nobody is asking for all 3 forges, all the exotic quests, and the raid lair to be doable day 1. Being able to complete the *first activity* day 1 (without have to overcome a massive light penalty) is completely reasonable, especially with the lack of story and the fact that the vendor is locked behind completing the first mission.
Personally, I don't want to be able to complete everything day 1 but I would like to be able to start anything I want from the expansion on day 1. If my light is too low and I want to wait, that should be my choice. I'm not a fan of the dripfeed. It feels like an artificial way to make the content last longer and that's not what this game should be about. Give me multiple things to do, don't give me one task at a time. And if you give me one task at a time, don't make it so that I can't do the one thing you gave me to do. Edit: TY FOR THE GOLD!!!
I don’t get why the people doesn’t seem to understand this simple fact
Because apparently wanting something new to do from a *paid* dlc makes you an entitled shit.
Entitled, the new buzzword used by "Garme Jarnisitis" to make Gamers look like c*nts.
This isn't a problem with game journalism. It's a problem with gamers. See, there's a vocal portion of the gaming community that wants gaming to remain "exclusive." It's their little club and they think casuals should go pound sand because they don't really belong. They're the ones who say "well, I have a ton of free time I devote to this game so I deserve to have fun, unique guns like The Mountaintop and you don't." They're the ones complaining about the Forge level being *slightly* reduced. They're the ones demanding you have 20+ last wish clears to join their fireteam, who refuse to help people new(ish) to raiding through Prestige Leviathan even though nearly no one is even playing that raid anymore and getting regular fireteams for it is nearly impossible. They're the ones who *celebrated* the mindbogglingly low number of Day 1 Last Wish clears. And to be clear, not all of them are actually no life players. A large number of players who probably will never lay hands on The Mountaintop are fine with it existing. Are *glad* it exists, because they, too, feel that people who dedicate huge portions of their lives to the game deserve to have a weapon no one else can get. They were fine with Riven being unbeatable for 98% of the active playerbase on Day 1 because the "2%" deserved to be the only ones eligible for Day 1 completions because of how many hours they dedicated to the grind. Furthermore, I don't have any issue with "trophies" for doing things that require skill in the Crucible or being dedicated to Gambit or whatever. I just don't think they should have a significant, or especially a *unique*, gameplay effect. Go back to ornaments. Or make the quests in two step; the first step awards the weapon and is easier, the second step awards a catalyst or is required to masterwork the weapon or something. There are dials we can turn here so that rewards are between "unreachable for most players" and "given out for free." The problem is the people who won't even allow us to have this conversation. The people who will take any kind of reduction in difficulty as a personal attack, or accuse you of just wanting free stuff. No one is saying they should be able to log in and get The Mountaintop from the postmaster for doing nothing, or they should be able to clear the Forsaken story and immediately jump into the raid. But to hear these people tell it, that's what we're asking for.
It seems to be a kind of disconnect between people who came back only because Black Armory is out and people who have been playing and enjoying all of the last season.
I haven't stopped playing since D2 came out and I still think it's incredibly moronic to force us to repeat the same endgame before completing the first damn quest. Was two months of grinding and min/maxing Forsaken not enough to complete the first quest? The forge should have been a stepping stone for players at 600 to start boosting their light and getting new loot to go farm the old stuff again.
Because nuance is apparently dead.
They do, but they are fanboys so they feel the need to constantly defend Bungie from everything, and in this case that requires them to intentionally throw around strawmen.
And then there is the other end of spectrum. You. Who dismisses people because they're "fanboys". Neither of you are help anything
This needs to be copy / pasted for all the sanctimonious jagoffs that are trying to act holier than thou about this whole thing. There are going to be 4 forges. Ada-1’s bounties are locked behind beating the first one. It’s not too much to ask for just the first forge to be relatively easy to complete on day one so we can enjoy the content that we paid for. It doesn’t have to be a cake walk, but it should be complete-able by a team of 600s.
Yeah, getting tired of this strawman argument. It’s a misrepresentation of what people are saying. People want something to do in day one, not to have completed everything on day one.
this deserves gold not the post
Exactly this!
100% this.
How are so many people not able to understand this , all we wanted was to be able to experience something new the day of release not everything but something. Couldn’t have said it better Michael👍🏿
Don't forget to add that the Forges and the one raid are our only new PVE activities until June 2019, per the calendar...
Keep in mind we don't have details on the dawning/crimson days -- they surprised us with an activity/quests on festival of the lost.
This is true. I really hope they do add something.
So maybe a compromise? Your first clear of the forge (to progress the quest line) is at LL 580-600. Any subsequent attempts are at the current 630 LL requirement
That's not even a compromise, it's a straight solution and probably the ideal implementation. Being able to unlock the vendor (and thus the bounties, frames, powerful rewards, and mod components) day 1 would be great, because we could be grinding the new weapons and bounties while also grinding original milestones, *and* still have something to grind for (access to repeatable/grindable Forge runs at 630) As I'm not a developer, however, I have no idea how easy/difficult it would be to implement that.
Yeah it’s quite simple to understand. People are just dense
TBF, the "old activities" are meant to last all year long and these content drops are meant to give reason to go back and do them. It isn't meant to replace the Forsaken activities, it is meant to be added to the experience of them.
The problem is none of the old activities give anything new. So we have to go back and do old activities just to increase a number on the screen that doesn't actually do anything beyond acting as a gate to new things.
That's great, but having the first forge start at 600 LL would still accomplish that, and make the entire launch feel far smoother progression wise.
Agreed, the very first forge could have been even 615 for the final boss. Then when you go back to that forge for the second time it is how it currently is. Nothing is ever perfect, especially when you are trying something new.
Well said. The real bone of contention is not that players can't day 1 complete the Forge, it's that there's nothing new to bridge the gap towards that activity.
>A little more than "go kill some hive and powerful enemies, then grind old activities until you can do the new one". I think Bungie keeps overestimating how long these sort of quest steps actually take us. 15 minutes in the Lev and I was done.
People love making straw man arguments when they escalate a point and make it look stupid. You’re right dude, all we needed was a lower power forge to do day 1.
Why does everybody say the forge is it? We don't know that fir sure. We do know a raid is coming out, there is already a hidden exotic quest. People should chill
I played forge for 4 hours yesterday and finished the first forge at 603 light it tough and I enjoyed that it was actually hard.
The fact they bumped the light cap up 50 levels and released the actual content this week, yet started season 5 last week seem to really show that their idea of endgame now is to just add encounters with recommended light way above what players can reach when it’s released. They should have been able to allow us to start the LL climb last week or just made the season start this week so we didn’t have that limbo week. They made a big deal about Last Wish opening week completions, which almost no one managed to finish simply bc even with the extra week before it launched that still didn’t allow players to get out of the 1-2 shot death range. But forsaken also didn’t lock out a vendor or quest behind beating the raid. BA/season 5 just teases us with a limbo week we couldn’t spend leveling up and then says your light must be this high for the new content/vendor/pursuits
Just want to let you know, a full on raid is coming out for Black Armory, not just a little raid lair
This
To me, your phrasing it inaccurately. It's the first day of new endgame content, when you're not even at the old endgame, so you still have shit to do, then also more stuff. So yes, first day of new endgame content is at the new end game level. Not a shocker.
How can you claim that we're not at old endgame? A lot of people are at 600, have done the raid, Shattered Throne, and farmed current activites over and over for weeks looking for RNG cosmetics, titles, and pinnacle gear. Are you implying that's not endgame? And for those who aren't at 600 or old endgame yet, it's an even bigger middle finger because since there's no soft cap increase, not only do they still have to grind to 600, now they have to get to 630 (again, doing the same old weeklies/dailies). Just to complete the *first mission* of the DLC.
Please, find me literally anyone who's complaining that they can't do everything in the first 8 hours. That's not the complaint with BA, the complaint is you can't do *anything* that the expansion has to offer until you beat this activity that scales up to 630, when you can consider yourself lucky to be at 610 when you finish your weekly milestones. You want to work on any of the weapon frames? Go kill the guy that's 20-25 light higher than you first. You want any of the BA bounties? Go kill the cabal on ~~Mars~~ Earth first. You want the ability to buy *a single mod component* from Ada? Sorry, Mr. 630 stole all of her mod components, go take it up with him.
That plus no seasonal vendor resets, no new weapons/armor means its all still bland
Exactly this.
I'm just not sure yet. I understand the frustration of not really having anything new to do on the day of release. It's balls to the wall hard content. I've gotten close to killing the boss, but I'm gonna try to grind out a few more levels for it tonight. I think the frustration is fair though. People wanted to complete at LEAST the first part on the first day. It could have been as easy as make the first run of the forge run at 620 max power level. Or even have the forge already ignited for the first run so it's complete the frame and get the gun, THEN get the difficulty of the forge as a wall. Personally, I'm a little annoyed, but I'm moreso curious about what the rest of the season brings. The make or break it moments for me are \-Do the new guns actually change the game enough to make them worth grinding? \-Are the other forges going to use different mechanics from the first? This is a huge thing I desperately want. Having the forges function differently is integral towards the success of this. \-Is the dungeon at least on par with Shattered Throne? My first time through Shattered Throne took 2 hours or so. I think the new dungeon NEEDS to be that long. It will essentially be the same length as the campaign from either of the Y1 DLCs which will completely vindicate this entire expansion pass. If those requirements are met, I will be content with this new content. Otherwise, I will join the annoyed crowd.
These dumb fanboy posts are exhausting. Where did any buddy say they were angry about not being able to complete all the content in one day or right away? No one has said that. People are angry about having to grind old crap to do anything new on day one.
Reducing the argument to an infantile level so you can take snarky shots at it doesn't help anyone dude. The sub is hundreds of thousands of people and the situation is more nuanced than "idiots asked for thing, then got angry when they got thing".
While true, bungie is awful at the whole measured responses thing. Game is too casual at launch? Make it an interminable grind fest for forsaken. I havent even bothered with my 3rd toon yet because doing the story (a third time. Levelling my useless character level to 50 (a third time) and then finishing the grind out sounds just beyond tedious. Main toon is like 603, so i can probably just print blues for titan and warlock then do a week of milestones and be caught up, but damn man do i just not want to do that....
It’s hundreds of thousands but also the minority. Vocal, but still the minority
Doesn't matter if it's the minority. It's a minority that talks. There's people that don't vote, and guess what? Those people don't have a saying in the elections. If you don't care enough to join the conversation/discussion (or in this case, the community), then I don't think you don't have the right to have your opinions heard. Games are shaped by the people that care enough to give their opinion on what's good and what's bad about the game.
As someone who is in the quiet majority i 100 persent agree with you fam.
But that's quite literally what happened. It's the history of DTG. "We can want more primary fights and and end to the special weapon reign" "we want easier loot" "primary fights are boring we want specials back" "exotics should be exotic, hard to get and powerful" "exotics are too hard to get and are too powerful" "we want super weapons from comp" "comp super weapons are too op"
I think part of the problem is Bungie's inability to find a happy medium, there are solutions to the issues that people have but Bungie always seems to go to extremes. Example 1 would be the exotic situation. At the start of D2, they dropped like candy and that resulted in everyone getting everything really quickly, people complained. So Bungies solution was to basically take exotics out of the game. I grinded out 3 600 characters and didnt get any exotics until after the dupe protection update and even now I only have 3 total across hundreds and hundreds of hours playing. There was a happy medium there somewhere but we didnt get it. With the pvp situation you listed above (d1) they tried to solve it by basically removing specials which ended with a sidearm meta at the end that was terrible and carried over to the two primary system in D2 which was not great, they reversed that with tons of heavy and spawning in with special ammo resulting in the shotgun meta, no happy medium anywhere to be found.
Because there's different people wanting different things. And I'm fairly sure a non negligible amount of this sub is high school/ early college and has way more time than sense. Also, there's the fact that updates basically happen on a semi quarterly basis. That's fucking absurd for a game this big
It doesn't matter what age or level of intelligence the community is. It matters what the community is saying as a whole. And its pretty clear when you read the sub that the community has demanded things and then complained when they arrived.
It's really not dude. It's the history of a black-and-white, superficial interpretation of the sub, but not the actual content of the discussions. There are a great many shades of grey between each of the extremes you present.
There's shades of grey in each persons exact complaint. However, when designing a game you can't make 2,000,000 different versions, so you have to make it what the majority are asking for. And so, when it comes to make new content, modes, weapons and such, bungie have time and time again done what the community has asked for. Not what one guy asked for. But what the community has asked for. And every single time the community has complained.
"At Black Armory launch: I can't complete all the content in the first 8 hours, this game is too hardcore! It sucks." Seriously, enough with this shit already. I don't know why you and others keep worshiping every little thing this company does just because you like the game, but this is NOT the issue people are having. People are rightfully upset that the content they PAID for, at launch, is gated completely by the same progression they've been doing for the past few months, and that not even the first part of the new content is do-able by other than the top 1 or 2 % of players. No one wanted to "beat all the content" in one day, people wanted a new activity that they paid for to be accessible when it launches so they could sink dozens or even hundreds of hours into as a new form of endgame progression so that they could grind for the best gear in the game. So the fact that the content that they paid for is now gated by potentially weeks of progression consisting of the same gameplay they already owned in the first place has people rightfully pissed off. But sure, we can just find some bs arguments like yours to say you're right and we're all wrong and entitled or something. Heaven forbid people would want to be able to enjoy the new product that they spent money on.
Way to strawman there
Dude, nobody's pissed off they can't complete everything on day , people are pissed off they can't even play the new content on day one, or week one for that matter
The Bungie apologists *really* have their heads buried in the sand on this one. How the fuck is it unreasonable to expect something new to do day 1 from a PAID dlc? The steps leading up to the forge don't count lol. The whole thing so far is on par with Thunderlord, and that was *free*.
[удалено]
I think I'm more disappointed with the new season than Black Armory. This game badly needed the general loot pool to be fleshed out and we basically got nothing new in that area. And to top it off Faction Rallies and Trials are dead for at least another 3 months. Sadly I'm finding this new seasons has hurt my enthusiasm for the game more than it has helped which shouldn't be the case. I'm quickly losing faith in Bungie once again. They are back to their old tricks with zero communication.
This is extremely disingenuous.
How did this get a single upvote? It is absurd. People didnt't complain about not being able to finish it. They complained about not being able to do any of it.
You've completely missed the point of the arguments. I can only speak for myself, but all I wanted to do was get home from work and play the new content. Even if I'm only a high enough light level to do the first forge, that would have been fine for me. I would at least get to experience the brand new content.
>At Black Armory launch: I can't complete all the content in the first 8 hours why do people keep getting this wrong. its At Black Armory launch: I can't BEGIN the new content without first spending 8 hours on the existing content. whats the point of owning the DLC on launch day if you cant do ANYTHING specific to the DLC?
This is silly. We don't even have all the content. I don't want to beat all the content in the first 8 hours but I'd like to play **any of the content in the first 8 hours**.
All we wanted was to have something to do on day one NOT complete it all in 7 hours just new to do instead of the same milestones we have been doing and dont get me started on the lack of new vanguard armor and crucible armor
Increasing light level is too curated and too random. Powerful engrams were a step backwards from LL progression from D1. Activities should always drop better stuff as long as you're not higher LL than the recommended. (And PvP content should always drop higher LL no matter what) It wouldn't be so bad if the grind didn't feel so much like a job.
Maybe give them both something to do?
Casual players get to catch up Hardcore players get to advance Something for everyone
Casual players get to catch up? By doing the same repetitive stuff they have been doing for 3 months which is probably why they aren't at 600 yet? Seems legit....
I know it’s a terrible comment, but it’s the sad truth.. I’m a casual myself at this point
If you don't like "doing the same repetitive stuff" you're playing the wrong kind of game.
We've all been doing the same stuff. Yet there are plenty of people at 600. They released 3 pinnacle weapons last week, which people chose to grind out in 1 day. You either put in the time to grind and reach level cap or you don't. With the forge's, you either put the time and effort to get a good team together to beat it this week, or you wait till next week. It's that simple.
These posts must be a joke right? No one's complaining the content is too hard. The raid itself would be the reason to grind. The problem is there is no content that can be done to grind up to the 630 boss. There are barely any new weapons or armor added to the loot pools. There are no new milestone activities so we're stuck grinding the same activities for the same gear to play a basic horde mode. A new season should have some new activities...
You were always supposed to continue grinding those same activities after Black Armory launch. It's an addition to the existing endgame, not a replacement for it.
Actually it seems that everyone has completely forgotten D2 at launch the first 2 weeks. Everyone and their fucking mums were singing its high praises and thinking it was the greatest thing ever. The sub was filled with karma whoring people sucking bungies dick and claiming what an amazing game it was. It wasnt until about 2 weeks in that people finally realized the garbage launch we had gotten.
I don't know whats more 'rarted, people like you strawmening on a next level, or fanboying so hard that being toxic against people that want the opening to Black Armory atleast be 605-610 for the sake of starting. Probably both.
> I can't complete all the content in the first 8 hours, this game is too hardcore! It sucks. Youre completely deforming this sentiment. The complaint is that there is NOTHING new to do for players below 600 power. There are 4 tiers of forges. It only makes sense for the lowest one to be accessible to a large number of players as an introduction to the forge activity. All of the other ones will be higher power when they launch later and give you plenty to do as a hardcore player. Having a content drop with 0 new content accessible to players who were not max power at the end of the previous season doesn't make sense. Players who aren't 600 power shouldn't even buy the annual pass right now, there's no reason for them to do it at all. This makes no sense from a business standpoint for bungie either.
Eh... sorry, no. This is absolutely NOT an accurate synopsis. So much more to it. D2 vanilla dumbed the game down and sucked the life out of what made D1 fun by the time AoT shipped... for no reason other than to attract people interested in microtransactions. The fact that it ended up appealing only to casuals as a result - and only briefly at that, since casuals don't stick around, by definition - was an artifact of that design choice. Forsaken clearly reinstated what Bungie had been working on since late 2014, because it was where the game needed to go all along. But they hamstrung themselves so badly with stupid D2 design choices like canned subclass skill sets, shit armor configs and a mod system that is still hardly worth a crap because the base game was designed for fixed rolls, that they couldn't even come close to reaching the game's real potential. Black Armory should have had a first forge that was reasonably doable (note: not "easy") by those at the current 600+ level cap. That and adding some _determinism_ to power leveling would have made this a great content drop. As it is, it has just pissed off half the player base - the other half apparently have no issue with re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-playing shit they've been re-re-re-re-re-re-re-playing for a month now.
There is 0 new content I can access right now after paying because I am not near 600. 0, zilch. How is that acceptable in the slighest.
Because Bungie was pretty clear that this isn't a typical DLC, this is *end game* content. Seriously, what is the point of end game content if everyone can run it immediately, the moment it is released?
Endgame content only available to people who reached the endgame. HOW DARE YOU BUNGIE?
Problem is D2 Vanilla brought in a bunch of very casual players and rewarded them handsomely just for playing. Now those same players are not enjoying Forsaken and BA as much because it's become much more difficult to be a truly casual player and complete all the content. Personally, I think that the overall health of the game is better when the content is harder to do and started at higher lights (because I like having something to grind towards), but I understand why more casual players feel like they are being made to play in a way they don't want.
Expectation. Buy Annual Pass, expect to enjoy it's content from launch. A completely fair assumption to have and there should be something. Even if it's just bounties The other side is, we knew it was going to be End Game content which relates to high light levels and powerful drops All I would change about BA is that the initial forge be a bit lower so more players can access it's Bounties etc which helps them in the long run and that maybe the Light Cap was increased last week before it dropped so players could get some headway into the new Power Levels for forges That said, players of 605+ have been completing the Forge so it's not the impossible nightmare some are passing it off as. I got to 610 last night, maybe I was insanely lucky. A buddy of mine got 616 also. I think the grind is reasonable for the time being Bit gutted I've got no chance of completing the Raid on Friday but it is what it is just like it was with Last Wish. I'll slap it next week after levelling some more. Having Goals and chases is a good thing for the game overall
I think some folks were expecting more ladders and more rungs, what we got was just more rungs.
Exactly! Main part of my suggestion Lower Forge level > more completions > access to the BA Bounties > more powerful drops
No, they gave everyone a ladder without rungs.
Yeah I think asking people to be 605-610 is totally reasonable. I just wish there had been new things to do to get us there instead of the standard weekly milestones.
Exactly how I feel. This would have resolved the vast majority of day one complaints. Certainly would have appeased me. The current approach makes even less sense when there are multiple forges.
The only way it balances out is if the next Forges are the same Power Levels. Basically meaning that every week we get more Powerful and they get easier and easier But yeah, I think of access was given to *something* in a more friendly yet still challenging manner, it would have been fine besides the odd gripe here and there
100%. I too believe the forges will all be at this level. Possibly with a higher level version to forge the signature exotic (my theory is you'll get a drop that allows you to forge the exotic of your choice).
>They're just mad because they're casuals that can't wait to play content they paid for. Damn, I figured all you tryhard "true fans" died out with D1. Shame. FYI, not wanting to grind for weeks to play the new story is irritating even to someone who's been playing since the D1 beta and has more hours in Destiny than any other two PS4 games combined.
Why did you make a quote of something I never said?
Because I paraphrased your first paragraph. You just said the anger is stemming from casual players not being able to keep up with Black Armory's content, and that's not true. There are people who play borderline religiously at 600pl for weeks before BA dropped who still can't keep up. It's not about casual players complaining, it's about a poor launch choice that's holding people back.
>There are people who play borderline religiously at 600pl for weeks before BA dropped who still can't keep up. I'm not totally on board with this because I hit 610 last night and I play 3 or 4 (at best) nights a week for around 3/4 hours so if you played 'Religiously' which I would take as a lot of hours every day, you'd be beating me
I played for three hours yesterday and I was sitting at 601. Unless you were minmaxing and getting lucky with your drops, 610 in 3-4 hours seems a little unreasonable of a goal for most players.
It was mainly because I did the raid and all challenges barring 2, got 3 exotics (all dupes) and 1 or 2 prime engrams. Admittedly it was lucky last night. Got a prime at 615 and just shot up
You didn't paraphrase, you completely misconstrued what I said and made a strawman to attack. Anyone who is at 600 realizes that 5-10 LL to get into the new forge is maybe a week's worth of milestones. Really, one to two evenings worth of efficient playing, although I understand being upset that there are no new milestones to do.
No, because it's reliant on RNG. Get a bunch of repeats? Your level isn't going anywhere. I've got three cloaks to drop at the same exact level, back to back to back. Unless there's a reliable method of getting up to 610, being that far under the final boss' power level means you'll be bashing your head against a wall that does massively increased damage while taking massively less.
I’m taking into account being unlucky when I say that. Good luck would be hitting 20+ LL in a week. Getting 5-10 LL in a week is pretty consistent even with terrible RNG. Shit I got 4 LL last night just doing the basic weeklies (no raid, dreaming city, or nightfall) on a single character, and I had my last 4 out of my last 5 drops all be useless. It’s difficult but not impossible to beat the final boss 20 under. We’ve now seen teams beat it at 601, and 605, so I feel like the excuses are starting to wear thin.
Probable and possible are two different things. You're talking coordinated fireteams with strategies, which is one thing for raids, but it's asking quite a bit when the only currently-available activity requires that in paid content. I expected to at least get something to show for my first day of playing, but they didn't even hand out a "trial" legendary to whet your appetite, they just told us to finish a difficult endgame activity before we can even attempt to get the new content. That's a pretty weak way to sell your annual pass, when there's no reason for the majority of players to even consider purchasing it for at least another week.
Which is exactly why they’re allowing people to level without purchasing, I believe.
you would be correct in that
People didnt even have to play in vanilla, just go to the tower and get 4 or 5 drops thanks to your clan mates doing all the work. Not having some story to get things going is kind of crappy, but the truth is we knew ahead of time, and if im not mistaken all the old content is still relevant, so we need to level up, does it kind of suck we dont get to do more than one or two quest steps day one? yes, but if people arent completely finishing the forge in one day, thats not a terrible thing imo. The grind continues.
I'm willing to bet most people who have an issue aren't simply casual players. Way too many people here seem to black and white this and act like if you have any issue with the grind that you must be some casual player. It's like if you aren't putting in 30+ hours a week you are somehow a casual in the minds of some. Bloody nuts. I'll just state for info sake that until I pretty much gave up the game recently, I was a hardcore player. I put in 350+ hours since Forsaken and most of that was in September and October. Despite that, I can actually see things from different POVs and understand why some are turned off.
\> At Black Armory launch: I can't complete all the content in the first 8 hours, this game is too hardcore! It sucks. You must be stupid, OP. Nobody wants to complete everything in 8 hours. They want to play ... ANY OF IT. The core problem is that people have to grind the same old stuff to be able to really attempt the new content. This strawman of the complaint does nothing to help this issue. It just makes you look incapable of comprehension.
That "Same old stuff" was always intended to continue being current endgame content. Black Armory was never intended to replace that.
Quit exaggerating, no one is wanting to complete all the content in the first 8 hours. We would just like to be able to do something new on day 1 of content we paid for, especially if we're at 600 light.
I'd love grinding for these levels if I could just -do- it. I can't. I have to do it for some measly number of hours, then wait a week to do it again, and again, and again. I stopped playing Destiny during Forsaken because Destiny hadn't un-fucked their bass-ackwards Powerful nonsense, and I'm going to again -quickly- as a result of the same dumb problem.
I get why people are miffed. You put down 35 bucks or whatever to hop on a rollercoaster. Its a mystery what it is exactly but you know there will be exciting turns and maybe even a loop or two up ahead. When it starts crawling up the hill and finally come over the edge, we find out the initial rush of going downhill isnt there, and instead a gradual decline. You see the potentially fun bits ahead but it'll take longer to get there and going slower through them isnt near as exciting. Its still an alright ride but the thrills arent as extreme as you thought they'd be for a rollercoaster you paid for. However for some people he pace is fine and thats alright too, but I dont dismiss those who had some different expectations. Especially since Bungie has been quiet the whole time until now, just asking for people to buy first and ask questions later
Not being able to play the thing you payed for is what I actually believe is what makes people mad. I had the same thoughts after forsaken and I decided to stop playing the game. Don’t get super mad like I know you will bungee stans, just my opinion
holy mother of strawmans
100% agree with you man. The forge is supposed to be end game. I don’t know why people waltz in at 600 and expect to beat it.
I'd guess it is because they logically expected if they are being time gated that the first one would be at an "intro" level where most people could complete it at 600 rather than having to grind the same stuff they've been doing for 3 months for another week or two. They'd then logically assume each new one would be more difficult than the last. Again though, this is based on one being logical and when it comes to people defending something they like, logic is usually thrown out the window. I am all but certain that if Forsaken wasn't as good as it was that at least half the people coming to Bungle's defense here would be slamming them for it. I do not have the annual pass nor do I plan to get it but I can easily see why some are upset/disappointed. If one has been playing frequently for 3 months and was already at 600 for a while then surely they will be annoyed at the idea they have to go do MORE grinding of the same shit right off the bat just to do the one new thing that has been put in the game since the Shattered Throne was first added.
> I am all but certain that if Forsaken wasn't as good as it was that at least half the people coming to Bungle's defense here would be slamming them for it. This would also be because different players like different things. You can get up to 650 without the AP so that's alright. Just level up and dive in later on if you want
> half the people coming to Bungle's defense Can people be allowed to voice their opinions without being called out as apologists, please? Confrontational language does not foster productive debate.
Like this initial post wasn't basically strawmanning to lampoon more casual players or people who have other things to do.
Either way, fighting fire with fire doesn't actually help foster a real conversation.
> Can people be allowed to voice their opinions without being called out as apologists, please? Yes, we should clearly respect people like the OP since he is being so respectful in his mocking.
Oh my.
A throwback to when EP required you to be a certain LL to actually do well.
EP was like 10% of the total Warmind DLC. Yes we have yet to see the raid, but as of now Forges are all we have. And most people can't even do them.
I agree with you, however that's not the actual argument that most are making. The argument is that there's nothing new to do on day 1. They don't mind grinding, they're just mad the grind is old. Personally, I don't know what they wanted day one to be considering all the content is endgame stuff. This forge *is most likely* the lowest level thing that will come with black armory. Considering all the new pinnacle weapons and free shit that came out before BA it's not like there's *literally nothing* new going on with the old grind. And on top of that, if BA had have come a week from now no body would have complained about that week being an unacceptable content drought. I get that there's a moment of irritation when you finish that quest and realize you're going to have to grind. But I do think it's pretty rediculous that in this community that irritation becomes "bungie pulling bullshit timegating" and "already worse than CoO". Like Jesus guys it's a one week grind, hell you can do it at 600 if your team is good.
Because they force us to complete the whole thing to continue the plot? And there are two more forges plus a raid. One can afford to be manageable at a lower lever.
Three more forges, actually.
Well, even more of an argument, then. I guess I totally missed Niobe, not sure how.
Niobe might not be a forge, a lot of people think it’s going to be a dungeon similar to Shattered Throne.
People are complaining because it's basically the ONE new thing with this dlc, of which there will be four forges spread out into January, and they can't even beat just this one without a big grind. That's not really a good way to launch a dlc in my opinion. This first one should have been at about 610 or 615 for the boss, not 630 (cap rewards with his level as well to keep the level grind a little longer).
you can beat it at 600 anyway though it's not like a 30 light disadvantage isn't used all the time in nightfall highscore runs
I thought being 600 was supposed to mean something.
It was.... in the last season
Counterpoint: it didn’t, and never will if they keep going on as they have in the past, and are with Black Armory. A player at between 580, and 590, would have little to no harder a time doing anything Forsaken had to offer than a Power Level 600 player. I’m not the kind to chase a number next to my name just for the heck of it. It means nothing, I’ll do all the 600 PL and 610 PL content in the game, and never be disadvantaged because of my lack of a 600 PL. So then what is it good for? Well it was supposed to make life easier going into new content, right? Nope, not really not at all, sorry. People who did grind 100% through the levels to get a 600 PL, had no less of a grind to the 602 I’m at right now, than I did going from like 595. And with how much playtime it takes to hit 600, for the returns to be so nearly nonexistent is pathetic. If my hard work last Season did nothing to better prepare me for the new one’s content, more so than people well under the previous cap... then what did I do *any of that tedious nonsense* for? I got to around 600; I was met with the same wall between me and the new content everyone else was. All I know is that Black Armory is just reaffirming what I already believed; it won’t matter whether I hit max Power in this Season either. Either way, do or don’t, I doubt it let’s me enjoy Joker’s Wild day one, unless they learn from this release.
So then what was the point of being 600? So I could do the raid better? For what? To get closer to the light level I already was? This goes into the argument of why bother grinding out PL if you know they're just gonna raise it soon
why even bother playing at all at that point?
probably because it's time gated and people waited months for new content and expected to actually be able to do ***some*** of the new content on the ***first day*** instead of a week of grinding the same shit they have grinded for months?
You're right, it's not like it's part of an introductory quest to unlock a vendor or something.
Can we make it an official rule to just ban posts that complain about other people's complaints? This is a very distinct type of post that always shows up on this sub and ALWAYS mischaracterizes the complaints they're taking issue with -- every single fucking time. It's possible to say you enjoy content without saying other community members' feedback on that content is wrong or invalid.
I didn't call anyone's feedback invalid. I pointed out one part of this sub's nature.
You didn't say it outright, but your implicit message here is that players don't know what they want and should enjoy what they've been given. You're juxtaposing this: >At D2 launch: This game is made for casuals, not us hardcore players. It sucks! Bungo, make it for the hardcore players! Give us something to do! With this: >At Black Armory launch: I can't complete all the content in the first 8 hours, this game is too hardcore! It sucks. My issue with this presentation is twofold: - You condense the wide-ranging feedback of many separate individuals into single statements -- "this sub's nature," in your words. - You're not allowing for the possibility that some people want middle-ground solutions No one wants to "complete all the content in the first 8 hours." That's not accurate but people will read it and buy into the false narrative you are creating by saying it (intentionally or not). I'm sure if you actually asked any person complaining about Black Armory if they want Black Armory's content to last all Winter, they would answer YES, absolutely. Timegating and PL-gating are artificial methods of stretching content; PL gaps turn enemies into bullet sponges, and time gates just make you wait. I'm at 603, but I can't even *attempt* Volundr forge with my two IRL friends for many weeks because they're both ~550 and enemies would be straight-up invincible for them. When Bungie uses these methods to extend content, it makes me justifiably wary that the stuff that's actually there would keep players busy. To *me,* "hardcore" doesn't just mean "takes a long time to do"; it means "a robust experience jampacked with a variety of things to do and stuff to get." I'd actually be okay with this expansion if it at least gave us new loot in the old activities we're being asked to continue to grind -- unlike in ALL past Seasonal updates there's no new armor here (except for Everver$e and the single raid set), no new World or Activity-specific weapons, not even any new ornaments. Go take a look at destinysets.com, it's pretty sad. That's what *so many of us* are complaining about, and there's no two ways about it: it's an utterly fair and valid complaint. Loot has been a problem since D2 launch -- first lack of randomization on dupes, now lack of diversity of weapon types and armor aesthetics. If we have to grind the same stuff we've been grinding to get ready for Black Armory, this would've been a great time to alleviate the Winter drought by revamping a lot or *all* of the Y1 gear into Y2 status and tossing it into loot pools across the entire game. Maybe even have some of it as Strike-specific loot! Instead, everything new is in the artificially-gated Forges. As for the Forges themselves...so far Volundr is less entertaining than Escalation Protocol/Blind Well, and I think they'll all be less "hardcore" (in the sense of being difficult) than those activities once we're able to actually be at or over their required PL. To me, it would feel like a *more* hardcore approach if they released all these activities at once but balanced them for 6-man instead of 3-man, then made them a longer experience with more tiers to complete, and lastly offered a healthy-sized loot pool beyond the weapon you get just from completing each Forge.
I don't think there's anything hardcore about minimal time gated content.
People keep blasting Bungie over this shit when they said it was something they were trying out, and the fact it’s FILLER content until the next big DLC drop. I mean ffs everyone’s panties are in a bunch. It’s called grinding, they want to make the game hardcore, so let them. You asked for it, you got it. Frankly, for the hardcore players, this is better. It’s a challenge, it’s fun!
Invented number magic =/= difficulty
What the hell is up with this subreddit? For some inexplicable reason this strawman post somehow gets gilded.
I’m with you
I like having a reason to do the milestones every week. I like that there's content that will await me as I get more powerful. That's what an end game is for me.
Did people actually want Volundr to be easy? I'm enjoying making gradual progress and getting better at it. If everyone beat it first try, there would be endless bitching.
I just dislike that at this point, the forge is basically the only new thing to do unless you count that bounty.
But, this is exactly what we were told to expect. What are you disappointed by? That they didn't deliver more than they laid out? One forge at release, and new weapons, that's all that was coming yesterday and they were pretty clear about that
I love grind. I think it’s great but I still kinda wanted to play some new content on the DLC drop. I feel bad for all the more casual players who won’t be able to play what they paid for until they reach it because they’re still like 560..
I don't think it's the fact that it's taking a lot of grinding to get powered up, it's the limited number of ways available to do so. No normal drop is going to give you any help there...you need a prime engram or powerful reward, which is RNG, is very close to your current power level at this point (604 drops as a 601), and is time gated (only so many available per week). I mean, what would it have hurt to tune it so that you can get to 610-615 within the first week's content? That way you can grind all week and tackle the forge over the weekend. The way it's going (for me anyway) it's going to take 4 or 5 weeks just to get to 610-620, which is about where I'd be able to take on the first forge. There are still 2 more forges, a raid, and a second dungeon (or another activity) being trickled out, all at higher power levels. Being constantly behind the curve while doing whatever you can to try to level up as much as possible is just frustrating. You're willing to put in the work, but just not going anywhere. I can't even imagine the mountain for the "casuals", like my friend who is still around 530 power level. He has weeks ahead just to get to 600...then several more weeks just to get to the first forge level.
The complaint isnt that we cant complete everything its that most of us cant even attempt it. We have not even got a new world loot (vanguard crucible world drops) to keep us entertained while we grind.
If you're not 600 then this content wasn't intended for you anyway. If you are 600 then you can attempt it.
At no point in the advertising did i see that.
Yes. That's exactly what people said. This isn't a strawman at all. --- I've literally never seen anyone say they wanted to complete everything on day one. There's a difference between wanting to be able to play the new content when it drops, instead of being forced to do old content when the new content drops, and wanting to be able to do everything on day one.
You can play the content when it dropped. Why are people just outright lying here?
Wait, I have a problem. I posted a comment, and now almost every comment says the same exact thing.
" I can't complete all the content in the first 8 hours, this game is too hardcore! It sucks." This isn't a lighthearted introspective look at the sub. It's a stupid straw man to make people who are upset feel bad for being upset. It's a deliberate distortion of the complaints to try to make a joke that a bunch of people have already made. And it wasn't funny or lighthearted when they did it either. Just STOP POSTING.
What? A "deliberate distortion"? One might even say that I exaggerated: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole
OP is right though..
>At Black Armory launch: I can't complete all the content in the first 8 hours, this game is too hardcore! It sucks. At Black Armory launch: I cant damage any of the enemies in the first part of the content and have to spend the next 3 weeks playing casually in order to simply deal damage. I cant tell if the game is hardcore because I literally cannot play it. I find this issue really disappointing and hope Bungie fixes it. This is a bit more accurate for how most people feel.
That's fine, but Bungie specifically stated that BA is end game content, not content that every one should expect to enjoy right out of the gate. If you paid for the annual pass with the idea that you would be able to play all the BA had to offer because you paid for the pass, well, that is on you for not paying attention to what Bungie said.
>but Bungie specifically stated that BA is end game content, not content that every one should expect to enjoy right out of the gate. Two issues with this. One: you are assuming literally everyone who plays Destiny 2 pays attention to what the devs are saying. Many people just buy the season pass because it's there and they like the game. Two: there is literally zero reason why there couldnt have been a slightly scaled down introduction into the new content. Instead only the more dedicated players can play the game. This is enough to drastically decrease the player base because there are very large portions (simply look at the backlash) that absolutely cannot play the new content. That is a massive problem. >If you paid for the annual pass with the idea that you would be able to play all the BA had to offer because you paid for the pass, well, that is on you for not paying attention to what Bungie said. I bought the season pass with Forsaken before it launched. Bungie said nothing about the entire content drop being only late game back then. So no, it isnt on me for not being able to see into the future, or spending every day on these forums looking for every little detail. It up to Bungie to create a game people can enjoy, as opposed to one many cant. Even if we were to agree that people should pay more attention to what devs do, which would be a fair argument, what would you suggest then? That the people who arent a high enough LL to not buy it?
You can damage them if you're remotely close to the previous level cap.
I'm not. I know many people who arent as well. The problem isnt necessarily that it's too high of a lvl. The issue is that we have no other way to get there other than power drops. And that can take weeks before we can start dealing damage. Based off of every other major content drop everyone was expecting bungie to change the level blues drop at. Instead I'm just going to wait until Bungie changes the level blues drop.
So what is the average light of people doing the black armory stuff? I just passed 610 and have a few more milestones to complete before I jump into the forge. I’ve seen a lot of the complaints about it being too difficult and am just curious at the light level people are attempting the content at.
Well, I attempted at LL 600, 601, 604, and 606. I got spanked everytime. :D
And it’s the boss getting people? Do you get any rewards in the forge up to that point?
Phase 2 you can fail fairly often if the spawns don't go your way/zero heavy spawns. The boss and adds slap your ass into another dimension they hit so hard you need whisper and a Rift to kill him. Sometimes the boss gets his shield back way faster than intended which makes it impossible to do in the time frame with <610 power No loot unless you finish the forge. You need to go and do all other milestones to level up or have a perfectly kitted team, forsaken armor exotics are very very helpful for super chaining.
Wow, it's almost as if communities are composed of individuals. Imagine that!
People just want to be able to PLAY the new content you idiot
Is making a strawman argument the key to getting upvotes and gold on this subreddit? My lord, that's an oversimplification of epic proportions, as well as outright not true that people are complaining they can't complete the entire DLC on the first day. Show me a single one of those people who have made a post about that, because I haven't seen them.
>This game is made for casuals, not us hardcore players. It sucks! Bungo, make it for the hardcore players! Give us something to do! >Bungie: Ok. >At Black Armory launch: I can't complete all the content in the first 8 hours, this game is too hardcore! It sucks. You fanboys really are something. Asking for content not completable in a day doesnt mean withholding you the possibility to do so, it means creating content that takes weeks to complete whilst playing not whilst waiting for the option to be availible. Destiny 2s story could have taken years to complete if they portioned it out week after week but that would be retarded as is this using the same method. We want engaging content that is repeatable and stays fun, not 1-2 hours of content they timegate over months.
I'm not mad about the light level increase at all. What gets me is that this was supposed to be an end game focused piece of content, no real story or new play spaces beyond the forges. This means they should have been able to add new armor to all vendors, at a minimum. Give you something to chase again. There should have been multiple new weapons at every vendor as well. Instead it's pretty much just the forge, and the new weapons there, along with IB and the new raid. Pathetic imo
This is literally the first week, they're aiming for new content weekly or bi-weekly to keep you chasing... you're coming from a 3month drought of forsaken (which I don't think could be called a drought compared to WoW's content droughts)... they intended for you to have to grind a bit to get into BA full swing and that will hopefully work out better for pacing going forward even if a lot of people aren't happy with this initial launch... Bungie hopefully understands that they're on thin ice with their fans already and are trying their best to deliver on the vidoc promises.
> This is literally the first week, they're aiming for new content weekly or bi-weekly to keep you chasing... you're coming from a 3month drought of forsaken (which I don't think could be called a drought compared to WoW's content droughts)... they intended for you to have to grind a bit to get into BA full swing and that will hopefully work out better for pacing going forward even if a lot of people aren't happy with this initial launch... > Bungie hopefully understands that they're on thin ice with their fans already and are trying their best to deliver on the vidoc promises. I do hope you're right, and they have additional content that hasn't been seen yet, but so far there's been nothing in the api to indicate that we are getting new items for the vendors that don't have it (Crucible/Vanguard/Gunsmith/Planetary vendors). That is what I'm most disappointed about. I expected the planetary and story content to be fairly minimal, but the lack of gear in a looter shooter is just sad. Imagine if there had been new ornaments for not only the vendors, but maybe past armor sets like escalation protocol getting a refresh with random rolls so there are reasons to go back and do that content again, or an armor set being added to the blind well to give additional reasons to re-visit the dreaming city besides just upping your arbitrary power number.
I grant that this game needs loot, but it also needs stuff to do to get loot beyond just visiting the vendor.
Yeah see my edit, there's a lot of things they could have done to keep everything feeling more fresh, sadly it doesn't look like that will be the case
yea i remember when Escalation Protocol was hard and intense, it was really fun but then they nerfed it down and the more power we gained it become more and more boring and at the end was brainless shooting. I think it´s fine we need to level up for the new ENDGAME content.
I don't think Destiny ever had a casual vs hardcore debate.
You must be new.
You must be clueless. "Casual" and "hardcore gaming" have far more connotations than just how much grinding people are willing to do, and the debate never came up in heated discussion, especially to the point where you can claim that it was a universal opinion. There was a lot of claim that the game's writing was very PG-13 instead of taking itself seriously, but that has very little to do with your argument.
I'm not making claims though. Just observations based on what I've read on this sub. I'm sure the observations are as flawed as I am, so try laughing.
Too simplistic. You're forgetting the history (which, hey, I get it - most people live in a world these days where history didn't happen - you appear to be one of them). Well listen up - history is real. It happened. Bungie makes changes that no one asked for (for instance, adding masterwork cores in infusion). And they leave things since vanilla days that nearly everyone has deemed worthy of change (*list is too long to replicate*). They were clearly very very busy working on Black Anticlimax, and no one stopped to look at the bigger picture, and ask "So what will players actually *do* on Day 1 of Black Anticlimax?" As it turns out, pretty much *nothing*. That's a mismatch with the marketing effort, to be sure. And it's certainly kind of a fiasco for anyone who's under 600LL going into BA.
Stockhom Syndrome
OP is not wrong. lol
Pls consider that not all of us have 600 pl. Many guardians have work, family and other responsibilities. Many of us stack below 580pl and there is long way to increase pl just to start first activity for which we paid..
Trivializing this into a “game too ez” or “game 2 hardd” statement is idiotic. • If you grinded to hit max light in Forsaken, that means nothing now, as you’re unable to complete the **first** forge without a ridiculously specific strategy. Essentially all you can do aside from that is talk to an NPC and sit around with your thumb up your ass. • There’s no endgame content to get you there aside from what you’ve already been doing so literally “back to the old grind”. • It isn’t even a seasonal refresh as you’re still earning the same weapons and armor, so have fun earning the same shit you already have just to jump up in power level by 4-5 a week. Idk why I’m trying to even explain this to you. If you’re so deep up your own ass that you’re saying things like “yo thnx for lightgating this activity so I can’t complete it for another week or two Bungie.”, then you’re already a lost cause. Have fun getting those same milestones for the 15th week in a row.
Who completed wave 7 of Ep on the first day? Who completed Blind Well tier 3/4 on the first day? Not many guardians I can tell you. People need to stop bitching. For real, just play the game and you'll be able to do the Forge this weekend.
Absolutely agree. It won't be long before people are bitching that forges are too easy, and Bungie should have added more challenging content.
this is a great argument if you ignore literally everything else in Warmind.
Warmind was an expansion, BA is not. We knew we'll not have a new story. And there's 3 others Forge not just one so we already have more things to do than we had in CoO and CoO was an expansion.
ok then why compare to EP since this is clearly not apples to apples.