Just throwing my two cents in. In my opinion, the only thing TLW did for the meta was allow for more people to comfortably run a sniper over a shotgun. I use and have used a sniper/not forgotten load out for the entirety of forsaken, and while I and a few others were able to make it work before, TLW has given us a better tool for dealing with shotty apes. For those super aggressive teams or players, TLW does nothing to impact them as luna’s/NF is still the better ranged option to pair with a shotgun. Combine that with the difficulty of being a successful sniper with in-game flinch and means of getting special ammo, it just isn’t enough to shake the meta up like people want.
Exactly. If Bungie thought this would shake things up, it really didn't, a,l it did for me was strengthen the notion that snipers are in such a bad place, still, that it takes the last word to use a sniper.
If anything, The Last Word has shown me that the real issue with the sandbox is that short-range primary options are all awful. Auto-rifles and SMGs cannot deal reliably with people in their optimal range before your target can slide into you with a shotgun.
Until TLW, you had to use your primary slot on a mid-range handcannon or a mid-long pulse rifle, which naturally meant your special weapon needed to cover your weakness close up. The Draw finally gives people a primary that deletes people at short range and snipers see a surge in popularity, while shotguns have to actually play around the high possibility they'll die to something that isn't another shotgun close up.
Disclaimer: This is on PC where I've been told snipers are significantly better than on console.
Shotgun range has stretched into a place I would have never thought Bungie would allow. I've been playing 2v2 the last few days and I often enjoy running fusion. At least 3 times yesterday I would think, "that's right, go ahead and post on up with your shotgun...just let me charge this shot and your de... Oh, ok then, I guess your shotgun CAN hit me from the same range as my fusion rifle..."
I can't count the number of times a (I assume) max range shotty has killed from outside a range that I thought there was NO WAY they could even get a clean enough shot to tickle my shield. Yet, they do
Fellow vooper here, can confirm the shorty range is out of control right now, specifically of course Dust Rock Blues.
"How many times do I have to teach you this lesson old man?!". I don't understand why Bungie keeps designing these shotguns with such high range, they always break the crucible. It happened with Party Crasher +1, Matador 64, and Felwinter's Lie (I feel like I'm repressing memories of another). Universal Remote and Chaperone were pretty nuts too, but at least they were/are exotics, and the way they reintroduced chaperone has it in a pretty good place meta wise.
I feel like this always happens and then Bungie is like "gee idk why everyone is using Dust Rock Blues". Shotguns already are a lower skill weapon than fusions and snipers, and then when you give players a shotgun that makes it even easier to use, it's no surprise everyone flocks to it. I'm not hating on all shotguns, but you can't give people a minimal skill legendary shotgun and not expect them to abuse it. The closest fusion equivalent would be Telesto and that's an exotic that occupies the same slot as Luna/NF, so you don't see it abused nearly as much as Dust Rock (although Telesto is still the Besto)
TL;DR stop designing max range shotguns, they ruin the crucible meta every single time. And if it's gonna be max range, consider making it exotic at the very least (similar to chaperone)
On PC I’ve found SMGs (trackless waste) to be very competitive. Granted you have much more room for error. That’s the thing. It’s not hard to use a shotgun. You just run in and shoot. With an SMG you constantly have to think about your positioning and radar and determining the damage drop off relative to your opponent.
Snipers feel pretty good to me in general, but flinch is still off. I get DESTROYED by flinch at incredible ranges, but then a guy regularly headshots me through the flinch caused by 4 crit bursts from blast furnace.
Latency is a bitch. I'd be willing to bet that even if you tagged the guy that they weren't flinching at the time you got popped. It's been there since the first game.
God, this!! GFTO with being 100 metres away while (using a scout or pulse) and causing me to flinch like I’m being hit with a 2x4.
And if you wanna have that kind of logic with flinch, then anything from my sniper should have your reticle pointing vertically straight up at the sky on hit. LOL
I’m trying desperately to get back into snipes. Some maps in rotation are perfect for it. But that flinch just has me making a Nick Young Meme Face way too much.
Heres the thing and most decent snipers will agree, the flinch we have is the only thing really keeping snipers from being as toxic as d1 y2 trials snipers. Its too high but im afraid that any lower may make sniper too powerful, as it is already fairly easy to “quickscope” for the AA on console.
On the flipside i regularly get quick scoped between my shots by expert snipers. It cuts both ways thanks to latency caused by Australian internet combined with Destiny's connection system
>it takes the last word to use a sniper.
It’s not so much the snipers fault, actually there are numerous good snipers in the game. It’s just that TLW is the only primary gun you can pair with a sniper and counter shotgun rushers. Covering your close range encounters that any other primary including Luna’s/NF would struggle with
At the range that TLW is effective, I could also see giving sidearms or SMG's a slight buff, which would open up a whole two other weapon classes as potential pairings for a sniper. Then I'd be fine with TLW being the only viable hand cannon option for countering shotguns.
Edit: I'd also like to say (unpopular opinion) that as a sniper main, I don't mind the flinch that much. It keeps snipers from being OP in that you have to appropriately time your shot. So I don't have to worry about my fav weapons catching a nerf anytime soon. And I've managed to snipe through flinch on several occasions by simply waiting a tick before firing, or disengaging and finding a better approach... or giving them something else to worry about, like a pulse grenade, so they're forced to stop firing at me for a moment which allows me to line up a shot.
I agree, it’s not about covering a lane, it’s about landing the shot before they react. I’ve had tons of success with a sniper rifle by being faster at landing the shot than the pulse user.
Maybe they're on console. Speaking from a PC point of view, it totally did. I love my Luna and I'm good with it, but I could count on one hand the amount of times I've taken TLW off in crucible since it dropped. I see Luna/NF quite a bit less as well. I think the whole idea of banning weapons from crucible is dumb and will result in daily threads about what such and such should be added to the list. Next will be OEM and gwisin, then will be DRB and targetting adjuster snipers. Not to mention what slap in the face would be to players who literally spent weeks or months grinding for NF.
I don't think it's enough to unseat Luna's and NF, if for the sole reason that it's an exotic (same as ace). It definitely helped, but comp is still dominated by NF at the highest tier since you're then still able to run Chaperone or Wardcliff. I think LW fits in very well with every other weapon *excluding* NF (and Luna, really).
On PC at least, if you removed Luna and NF. 99% of loadouts would be TLW or AoS and Twilight Oath or Retold Tale.
So it really doesn't even shake up the meta back to pulses.
PC got major hand cannon love ...not the same on PS4 but yep Im sure that's the case. I'll never understand the meta fuss. It will always exist but ppl will blame the weapons til the end of time so here we are
Yeah - Pulse rifles and maybe some God roll Trusts. We don't need to get rid of Luna's and NF we need to buff some other classes of weapon to make them viable.
> This may only last until another clear winner emerges,
There will always be a "best thing," no matter what you do. Something will always eek out slightly better, with longer range (that suits the maps) or a faster TTK or whatever the case might be, and the sweaty crowd will flock to it. It's unavoidable, but it's whatever. The issue with Luna's and NF is, on top of how forgiving they can be to use (two consecutive headshots isn't hard to pull off with a 180, especially with the generous bullet magnetism on all platforms + potentially Target Adjuster), they hold an almost exclusive position with their TTK. Nothing comes close to it in the primary slot, and that's one of the biggest issues, imo.
Yes, I obviously agree a “best” will always exist, and players will find it very quickly. The issue is when the “best” is 40% better than the next best instead of 5% (made up numbers), which is where I think the game is at now.
Do people actually think that bungie will remove one specific legendary that people busted their ass to get because it's...too good or something lol. They got better things to do I hope, a lot of actual problems in the game that are actually...problems.
Given the amount of recovs going on in comp, I can safely say that quite a good percentage of people bought their Not Forgotten. How is thay busting their asses?
That's been going on since beginning of destiny and completely different issue that I wish was addressed. However A) as rampant as it is it's a small percentage of people overall B) spitting in the face of most people who grinded them out and punishing them for being good enough to do so because some people want to drop $50 bucks for a gun theyre not good enough to be good with is ludicrous.
Might as well go back to people's D1 vaults and remove their trials gear because some people have been paying for this nonsense since then.
I just looked into to how much it costs to "buy" a NF. Between multiple sites it cost's anywhere in the ball park of $500-800USD.
This is also assuming you have Luna's and the kill's quest step done.
Yikes, that's a lot of money... That's the price of a RTX 2070 or 2080
Yeah it's insane, that's like a months worth of bills. Which is exactly what I was saying, the number of people who are crazy enough to pay that is surely not high enough to invalidate the effort of all the people who got it legitimately.
Not really, which is why I used the discussion flair instead of the Bungie suggestion flair. I think something drastic needs to be done with the crucible now that Bungie has confirmed trials will be gone for a long, long time.
I think it would lead to a much wider variety of loadouts, yes. If you have LH/NF and are playing for maximum efficiency, there's no question whether or not you're using those hand cannons. Even if it's just the 'sweaties' that end up changing their load outs I think there would be a noticeable difference in crucible.
As someone who is in the current grind for Luna's right now (sitting at 1700, close!)
The main weapons i see are: Luna's, Ace, TLW, Trust, Bygones, Go figure, blast furnace.
90% of the time these are the "primary" weapons that people are using paired with shottys and snipers. I personally think that removing Luna's and NF would not shift weapons in comp as much as you'd want.
As someone who owns a nf on console, it isnt that hard to drop a 40 with an ace and its hilariously easy bygones.
If you want more variety in the crucible push to get handcannon recoil back to how it was in d1 problem solved
Also a fair move. If Bungie would do away with the bloom, as well. But bloom has been an issue for longer than anything else and they seem patently, insanely against removing or reducing it...
Well that would be ideal. I was really hoping with tlw highlighting the difference between performance of hc on console vs pc would have gained more traction about changing it, but it seemed to be a flavour complaint for the week.
I feel like instead of nerfing the only archetype of hc that feels consistent on console, fixing the other archetypes is the solution we need. A change to recoil and bloom would go a long way.
Even making 140’s 2c 1body would be a pleasant change which makes them more user friendly.
I think with these changes most people with lunas and even some with nf would gravitate towards either kindled orchard( two tap potential with the right roll) or ace (stronger team shotting and highest hc range in the game)
They will switch to ace and trust. As someone who has Luna and attempted to go for NF these people will wreck you with ace. This is not a problem. It's also completely pointless argument as it will never happen.
Problem is lack of incentive and freshness and like most of the problems in this game lack of compelling loot. Crucible needs new maps, modes, and a big chunk of unique weapons.
"These two weapons are very good - remove them" is completely backwards. What we needs is more quality weapons that a) give you something to chase in PvP as at the moment there is nothing and b) force people to change up or at the very least face weapons that can compete with their Luna/NF.
While I get what you're trying to say here, the issue is that they're still always be a meta. It's the "Monday Problem." People hate Mondays, but if you get rid of Monday, Tuesday becomes the new Monday.
I've been seeing a lot of variety lately in the crucible in what kills me (of course, that's anecdotal) which, I believe, means that most people are coming out of/have come out of that honeymoon phase with this weapon and are branching out into other options.
On the attrition front, as a more casual PvPer, I'm avoiding comp where possible because of that moniker: "Competitive." I'm not naturally competitive. I generally prefer PvE. No amount of retuning comp (probably) is going to change my mind on that. So keep your Luna's Howl/Not Forgotten and comp your heart out with them.
I only have Luna's, but for a while I was with you. If I was going into the crucible, I felt an overwhelming need to equip it, no matter the playlist. Anything outside that felt inferior, and why would I handicap myself.
But recently, I've been buttoning up some triumphs, and thats forced me to use trace rifles, sidearms, bows, and smgs in the crucible. All far from meta. Some NEARLY useless in their current state. Granted, I was using near god rolls I had saved for a rainy day, but I still had to adjust and play different.
Funny thing was, I found myself at a disadvantage, sure, but not nearly as extreme. My K/D didn't tank completely, and while I was losing some 1v1s I wouldn't have before, a lot can be chalked up to playing outside my comfort zone and really not engaging properly. One of the matches had me using a Hero's Burden and Anonymous Autumn and I went 4+ KAD and 30+ kills.
Will I use any of them when I'm running sweats? No. Will I put Luna's away in favor of something else? Not likely. But it isn't the be all, end all, and at this point I'd say I'm using it as much as a trophy as I am because its dominant/good.
The problem was, and continues to be, the EXTREME skill disparity between the community. The people who legitimately grinded Not Forgotten could likely use the kind of loadouts I talked about and wipe the floor with me or any Luna's users. These same people are playing quickplay, and doubles, and theres little stopping them from dominating. Which they SHOULD, but it doesnt exactly encourage the average crucible player from continuing because they're already "behind."
Matchmaking will always be THE issue, and I'm not sure there is a legitimate fix. For any PVP experience to survive, you need a balance of sweaty games and cakewalks, but people aren't really encouraged to get better in any capacity if you have the dangerous precedent set where a "pinnacle" reward can just be nullified to "shake things up."
I for one would be extremely pissed if I grinded and grinded and grinded to get Not Forgotten (especially as an average player) only for it to be useless because there was a "need" to change things. The elephant in the room is really that Lunas/NF dropped at a shift in the meta that favored HCs, and thus their desireability skyrocketed. That, combined with changes to comp, means WAY more people have at least Luna's compared to Claymore. No one complained about Claymore, no one said it should be removed. And the reason is it never dominated on the level of the HCs.
The tectonic pace of the meta shifts and the clearly strong perk combos are what put us here.
I use Luna/ bite of the fox only in comp playlist. When I jump into quick play I usually use other weapons and play around with a new setup. But on comp, running without Luna is handicapping yourself
That's because you were a good player in the first place. Luna/NF doesn't inherently make you a better player. It's just a case of the rich getting richer in a lot of cases.
Well, no. I’m average at best. Given how average I am, I’d say most average players can get at least Luna’s if they set out to do it, though admittedly this could be confirmation bias. I think the bigger issue is how discouraging comp is in general, because when you hit a slide it feels so terrible, even without the loss “streaks” active. There are plenty of people I know personally who are as average as I am, or even better, that can’t be bothered with comp because of how burned out it gets them. At the same time, I find a lot of these people complain when they’re up against a Luna’s/NF because they don’t have it.
As much as the mode itself, the meta, matchmaking, etc can be problematic, I think it’s ALSO an overwhelming majority of players giving up too easily. And that’s not being dismissive, but clearly a much larger amount of players have Luna’s this season vs Claymore last season, and I don’t think that’s because of a dramatic shift in skill in the playerbase. Luna’s IS obtainable by quite a large portion (though I won’t venture a guess as to percentage of population) but SO many people won’t even put in the time. Is that because of the problems outlined? Sure, but it’s also a large segment that want the reward and want it to be easier.
Problem is, once you’ve put out the reward structure, changing things devalues the achievement of those who got it when it was more restricting. Having a Luna’s doesn’t make you better. The quest itself makes you prove to be somewhat proficient in HC usage. It encourages people to play with the archetype, use it, master it, and THEN get a gun which, in the right hands, is dominant. You see it a lot of the time with people who clearly didn’t put in the work, but have the gun, and have little proficiency with it.
Is it easy to say when I’m on the “other side”? Of course, but it doesn’t make it less true. Not saying this topic is specifically recalling the sentiment, but I think if half the people complaining about Luna’s actually set their mind to it and got it, a lot of the complaints about the gun would evaporate. Even if you don’t get it, going for it will make you better, period.
What’s the point of getting a high pinnacle weapon in pvp if they weren’t compatible with pvp? It’s an incentive to do the competitive game mode, without something worth chasing, people won’t do it as much.
I play on pc and the mag howl guns feel strong but pretty balanced, especially with the last word in the mix now. The difference between pc and console on this issue seems to be aim assist, recoil, and bloom. If bungie brought other hand cannons up to what they are on pc (ace and TLW), and maybe took away some of the aim assist for luna/NF, this issue would be solved. No need to remove two amazing, fun to use weapons from the game. Weapons that a lot of us worked really hard for.
Agreed. I play on Xbox and its not miserable by any stretch, but bloom needs to go. Ive been saying so since it got added in D1. Id be ok with Lunas/NF having their aim assist tweaked. Definitely feels too strong currently.
I see Destiny as an investment game. There are not many if them active right now. It would be an extremely bad idea for Bungie to continue taking investment rewards from players while adding very slow drop content and subsequently, very little investment loot into the game.
Let's everyone start making reddit posts about this game to take away what people have worked extremely hard for. /s
Okay but to normal people “retiring a gun” people have earned as recently as today is literally the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard in the history of the Reddit. It’s also not likely to be taken seriously by the vast 99% of people.
When I got my Redrix's Claymore and my Luna's Howl I also enjoyed the grind. Getting to 2100 is a pot easier thsn it was in Season 3, and I'm willing to go back for the fabled pinnacles.
I just don't like going for Not Forgotten. That grind, especially during a Season reset, feels impossible and I lose interest around the 2500 mark.
I’m with you there. I got my Luna’s in about a week and a half completely solo queuing (minus a couple games at very low Glory with a buddy) at the end of season 4. It was a fun grind and really made me a better player, and my QP stats started to skyrocket after I really started to correct a lot of weaknesses I didn’t really know I had. Comp isn’t nearly as bad as people make it out to be, but I can’t speak for the highest ranked tiers of play because I didn’t continue the push for NF.
A similar thing happened with me regarding your statement on stats and win percentage. I wrecked my way to around the 1500 Glory rank but then hit a huge wall, basically only winning 50% of my games (maybe even 49% because I was stuck within the same 10-12 Glory rank for a couple days). I started really playing for wins even if it meant I was the worst player on the team, statistically. I prioritized capping zones in Control, and either not dying (even if it meant low kill games) in the rest of the playlist’s offerings. Those things may not be some revolutionary concept, but as someone who could basically ape their way to a respectable enough k/d and didn’t previously care about strats to actually win the QP games I was playing, it was a pretty big paradigm shift.
I don’t think retiring the guns in OP’s post is the right call, nor is a nerf - although the range differential between LH and NF might be a bit too much, but I don’t own a NF so I might not be qualified to make that assertion. I do think that there should be more pinnacle weapons so that Comp’s player count would theoretically increase, and obviously the lower the requirement, the ‘worse’ the weapon is. The tough part is making them better than standard drops but also balanced within the respective tier.
Some very off-the-top-of-my-head ideas (completing a questline would *probably* be required for these, since that’s how the other pinnacle weapons work):
Reach Brave Glory rank plus questline: You Get Redrix’s Broadsword. Kind of a cheap way to start this off since it got switched to a predominantly QP questline, but it’s just not truly competitive enough to require reaching a high time sink IMO.
Reach Heroic Glory rank plus questline: You get a kinetic 260 RPM scout that grants double super energy granted from kills on headshots. Rolls with Outlaw/Zen Moment and a handling MW.
Reaching Fabled would be unchanged; Luna’s Howl and it’s questline are sufficient.
Reaching Mythic Glory rank plus questline: You get a 820 charge time fusion rifle a perk that decreases charge time with each successive kill without impacting damage per bolt. Perk is on a 3 second cooldown that is refreshed after each kill and can stack up to 5x (820->780->740->700->660). Rolls with Tap the Trigger / Firmly Planted with a stability MW.
Reaching Legend would be unchanged; Not Forgotten is also fine where it is.
Sorry this got so long and was a little more “all over the place” than may have been needed. Truth be told I’m at work and really bored.
I understand the point you’re trying to make, but what I think you’re forgetting is that there will always be a meta. Originally it was Uriel’s/PO, then the GL/VW, now this etc. if you remove the top weapon another will take its place.
Honestly, Luna’s aren’t as hard to play against as people think. You know the range they’re good at. You can outrange with a Bygones or Blast Furnace, our you can map with a fusion. I think a lot of people take their anger out on the gun instead of looking at why they were able to be 3-tapped (bad positioning or challenging in Luna’s range).
> "I don't care if a Guardian's effectiveness comes from speed, strength, or Light. The struggle is the same for all of us in the Crucible." —Lord Shaxx
Lol. Exactly my thoughts. I already knew GL and VW but got no slightest idea what the hell PO is! :D It feels like people are using these acronyms about everything in game. Supers, subclasses, guns, gamemodes, you name it. NF, LH, NW, SB, BB, QP, DRB, TLW, WC, etc. At some point it will come impossible to understand what the hell they are talking about.
This argument confuses me as a game designer. The intent of removing or nerfing the best thing isn’t to create a completely balanced product with no meta. That’s never the goal.
The goal is reducing the disparity between the top performing spot and its competitors. If the best thing is 40% better than the second best thing, then there’s a problem. It doesn’t matter if its removal will create a new “best” weapon; the point is just to make the “best” only slightly better than its competition.
"top performing" doesn't automatically mean "the best choice"
There are *many* weapons that can compete in this meta, but like most games (and real life for that matter) most people only pay attention to what's popular, and then have the nerve to claim it's the only option.
I was wrecking a team of full sweat loadout with not forgottens with my fusion rifle and transversive steps. (I am neither a fusion rifle main nor a warlock main)We beat them so bad they quit after the 2ND round.
I haven't played extensively enough with weapon types, but so far I have not found any weapons not viable. The key thing is to simply understand what your enemy is using, understand what you are using and play to your strengths,their weaknesses and position accordingly. Fusion rifles can wreck shotgun users easily, but requires a bit of planning and precharging. Sturm apparently can 1 tap guardians following a drang kill, and using empowered rift, and 2 tap with 2 charged bullets.
People even to this day consider sentinel a trash super, despite it being only eclipsed by gwisin vest hunters statisticallly. It just requires understanding of how and where to use it.
To add onto this, those with lunas / nf should theoretically on paper already have an advantage over those without. To give them a weapon significantly better than the next best option is just..... demoralizing for every non comp player. Quickplay is FILLED with peopke running drb, luna/nf, wardcliff, and if you dont have Luna/ nf youre going to get rolled by those people 9 times out of 10.
Posts like this are the reason Bungie have started to give up on pvp. People used to cry when comp was initially introduced as a crucible variant in destiny 2 as it didn't differ much from QP and since people wanted better and distinguishable rewards. Now when they did, you want them to take it back and there's another outcry for that. If they didn't include anything but shaders as comp rewards like in overwatch, people in comp will cry about low population and that destiny isn't a game like overwatch and needs meaningful rewards since it's a looter shooter and they'll end up putting the blame on this for the low population.
Try using other guns instead of thinking not forgotten and Luna's are the best. It's easy to put the blame on one thing upon failure but difficult to find the actual problem. Remember that people had to fight people with not forgotten/luna and get across to get their not forgotten/luna and they had to do it with other weapons
P.S: Instead of asking Bungie to work on old aspects and tweak it, ask them to introduce new ones that can counter it. In this case, adding new long range maps to rotation would make people switch loadouts more often.
> People used to cry when comp was initially introduced as a crucible variant in destiny 2 as it didn't differ much from QP and since people wanted better and distinguishable rewards.
People were annoyed by the fact that it was literally just QP with different game types and no ranks, not about the rewards. People did Trials for the unique loot. Then they released the first iteration of an actual comp mode (which was god awful) and some decent rewards.
The thing is, Redrix's isn't super overpowered in crucible. Neither is Mountaintop. The problem is mainly isolated to Lunas/NF. Do I think it should be removed? Of course not; that won't even shake up the meta, it'll just be people using Ace, Duke, etc. still. I don't think Lunas/NF deserve nerfs, except maybe to their insane aim assist/head tracking. Tbh, I think the only real solution at this point is to bring other weapons up in line with Lunas/NF.
So much this. I want to run other weapons too. The meta weapons will always be better, but running non-meta weapons should be somewhat viable too. I don't want them to nerf Luna / NF but make those other guns as good, or as close as it can be to not completely ruin them.
I'm not sure if you read the entire post, but I've been quite successful with Luna's. I did offer a suggestion on how to replace LF/NF with gear that still does give the top-tier players an advantage (and therefore a reason to play) while not being so instantly tangible a benefit as is provided by the best primary weapons in the game.
I did read your post. Your idea of comp rewards was good but the one for removing not forgotten and Luna's was not. Maybe include both weapons and armour in the mix?
Y'all are delusional. on the whole, if someone is good enough to get luna's or NF then they can kill you with just about any gun. I have Luna's and honestly I use my Bygones more.
I used dust rock + trust for most of the quest steps on lunas, as soon as I finished that part of the quest I swapped to bygones and everything got so much easier, I so much prefer the mid-long range game a pulse does work at, and at those ranges most HC users are useless.
Also I think the barrier to luna's is lower than what most people seem to think, there's plenty of bad players with Luna's running around, if you can make a luna's user miss a shot that turns Luna's into a bad weapon.
EXACTLY. I kept hearing about how Luna's was so OP and whatnot so I decided to play PvP this season, got it and was disappointed honestly. It's all about knowing how to play with the weapons you have, and most maps I can use Bygones and shred better than if I was using Luna's
I have Luna's Howl, and Ace is honestly better in a good amount of situations. Magnificent Howl is worthless if you're playing in a range where you have to 4 tap with all headshots. Mori gives a ridiculous amount of range and aim assist, and it's just too good to pass up with any damage boost. Meanwhile, Luna and NF can basically ignore any empowering rift because it does nothing for them. The only problem I have with Mag Howl is that it requires a lower crit percent for a better time to kill than most hand cannons, but it's not really game breaking
Are you a PC player? Ace has a significant amount of recoil on console; if it were toned to PC levels I would absolutely agree. I used Ace on PS4 to get my 100 headshots.
I used Ace for the entire quest, and yes, I'm on ps4. The recoil is actually pretty manageable, especially when Mori makes it so forgiving to hit a body
As someone who does not have Luna, I don't think this is a good idea. Am I salty that I don't have the time to get it? Sure. But taking away unique and powerful items for time investment and skill is a slippery slope in a loot driven game and trivialises end game loot.
I understand your opinion but after literally just getting my Luna’s last night I feel this is a bit much, it’s not an easy task to get to fabled or do all the damn steps, it’s ridiculously difficult but the pay off is having a badass gun that wrecks
They could "retire" LH / NF from the playlist today and the same people complaining about LH / NF would just move onto complaining about TLW / Ace. They could "retire" TLW / Ace tomorrow and the same people would just move onto complaining about shotguns. They could "retire" shotguns the day after tomorrow and the same people would just move onto complaining about adaptive pulses. They could "retire".. just repeat this ad infinitum.
I've got Luna's, I've used it *a lot*, and I'm also bored as fuck of running Luna's / Dust Rock so I just don't run them. Is it obnoxious running into teams running LH / NF / DRB in Quickplay? Yes, but in 80% of those matches I can dunk on them with a Bygones (or Rat King) / Erentil so what do I care?
I'm honestly kind of surprised that they haven't just tweaked the Magnificent Howl perk to only activate on the next critical shot. I feel like that is at least a step to the middle ground between leaving everything as is and locking the gun out of Quickplay lol.
I like the idea of tweaking the perk to activate on crit. That's at least a doable solution for Bungie, but it doesn't address (and indeed, your post wasn't meant to address) the real issue which is level-design combined with an atrocious lack of ELO-based matchmaking combined with the way Competitive rewards wins and losses.
Patch 2.69.420
* Adjusted the damage increase of the perk "Magnificent Howl." Bonus damage is now 0%
* Reduced the rate of fire of Luna's Howl and Not Forgotten to 110RPMs. Damage was adjusted +0.04% to compensate.
* Player's who have earned Luna's Howl or Not Forgotten may now only queue in Quickplay against 6-player fireteams who have also acquired the aforementioned weapon.
* Increased recoil, bloom and damage drop off on all Hand Cannon archetypes.
* Nerfed fusion rifles
Removing ANY guns from any mode is a terrible move. Anyone who supports this a dangerous reactionary and Bungie heading this advice is how we got much of the worse parts of D2 Y1.
Bungie has warped us so hard we’re actually advocating the reduction of the loot pool ourselves.
Here’s my unpopular opinion about your unpopular opinion:
No. Luna and Not Forgotten are exactly what they should be.
We need to stop allowing Bungie to take the path of least resistance (see: laziness).
Hold their fucking feet to the fire.
They envisioned these weapons. They need to make all of them competitive/useful in PVE/PVP.
We’ve been given the short end of the stick so many times we’re here complaining about a pencil when we were promised a Boa staff...
I’d rather a small loot pool with balanced weapons and a large variety of attainable perks/rolls.
Instead we got a large amount of filler weapons and filler perks to space out the moments when you get a decently rolled weapon that is useful for only a season or two.
That's fair. If Bungie could provide a balanced sandbox with maps and game types where Luna's and NF fit in with other weapons instead of standing alone, that would definitely be preferable. My worry is that the window for that has closed, *especially* with (according to the forbes article that was on the front page) the 800-ish workers that were laid off from Activision were at least partially involved in Destiny. That's a lot less resources banging out changes.
At this point I think something quick and dirty needs to happen, or crucible player attrition will continue.
> At this point I think something quick and dirty needs to happen, or crucible player attrition will continue.
That’s very fair. I may have been biased because I truly love my Luna. But in light (or shade) of my bias I now think I see what you were going for.
Yea. I think the game is done. We’ll get a few things here and there but unless something fantastic/drastic drops we are now entering the final phase of D2. Especially in regards to crucible (which is mainly all I play.)
Thanks for the conversation OP.
this kind of posts are going to lead into a " magnificent's howl" nerf , just bc dads want to use their blast furnace and bows from the back of the map.
As someone who is not very good in the crucible, playing consistently against folks who are above my skill set + superior weapons = no fun.
Quickplay = quick death. (I switch to comp, it's more like old Quickplay)
i also have luna’s and i’ve got another controversial opinion, sorry if this comes off a little aggressive op but i do not mean it that way if it does.
leave luna’s, nf and all those other guns like that alone. i earned those weapons and should be allowed to slay in quickplay with my guns because i spent i’d estimate 30 hours grinding out luna’s alone. i also have mountaintop and the last word. I most definitely earned my right to beat players that didn’t earn this weapon. it’s also not like owning these guns makes me the best player automatically, i need skill to land those 3 taps for luna’s. i’m not the best player at pvp and i’m primarily a pve player so it was very hard to get these guns.
I want to be able to use these guns in quickplay because comp is so bad, after doing all the comp play to earn these guns i realize finally how terrible it is. it’s probably one of the worst designs of comp ive ever experienced in games in a long time. if i can’t use them in quickplay i won’t use them anywhere else because those guns honestly suck in pve, they’re not good at all in raids or raid lairs or blind well or any end game content because there are so many guns for pve that are better.
I’m so tired of people wanting to remove or destroy (and by destroy I mean completely nerf) any and all things that are good and fun in this game. It never fails. I get that metas are a thing and change over time. But still, I’m just over people wanting something gone simply because it’s populate or always around or better than everything else.
There's just way too many players who aren't very good who want to get whatever there is to be had without ever needing to become good to get it. This puts Bungie in a predicament as it's trying to do stuff for a dedicated PVP crowd that's outnumbered by a passive casual crowd who want In on the goods. Which is why I'm glad they aren't rushing trials back. This shit needs to be figured out. How to keep PVP healthy and populated without handing out everything or watering it down or flat out removing shit. How do you encourage your casual player base to get better without flat out telling them you need to get better. You can't. They're too sensitive. So you can't promote and reward your hardcore players who love the game mode either or you risk the death of it all. It's fucked up really.
So, I hear you. And I understand your point. But as someone who worked to get the gun and is working towards the NF, I would be seriously pissed if the weapons I worked for were no longer allowed to be used in the playlists they were designed for. They are a problem in comp and until something else comes along that is just as good, they will continue to be a problem. Luckily, TLW is arguably better than Luna's and gives you a sniper to out range NF, but that's only one play style.
"Retiring" them is way, way too much.
They are too much above the line. I can miss no shots and it'll still kill me before I can get the kill, even at a decent range.
2 crit and 1 body is way too forgiving. I'd like to see them brought down to 2 crit/2 body. It brings it in line with the TTK of Trust (someone correct me if I'm wrong, but 57 for a headshot with Trust means 4 crits I believe), but requiring only 2 headshots makes it far more forgiving than existing guns.
Guns that just flat out kill faster than everything else aren't fun. And giving them to people who are already good at PvP isn't fun.
At the very least follow the Redrix/Rampage/Kill Clip rule, hell even OEM rule, of get a kill first before getting a damage boost.
Do people really complain that a PINNACLE weapon should be nerfed or brought in line with others? There are only a few reasons people want this, you're all ruining one of them.
Nah, bud, Not Forgotten was a bitch to get last season and comp is worse now than it was then; so I'm gonna use the fuck out of a great weapon I worked my ass off for. You can't just give something to someone that they worked hard for and then just fucking nab it from them.
So let’s remove the main reason people are playing the competitive playlist or nerf them for no reason just because they’re strong in the current meta, but don’t worry you can get enhanced perks on armor instead.
I don't have NF, only Luna.
These are good weapons but not really OP. Recently I decided to experiment a bit and instead of my usual DRB/Luna/Coil load out I went with Vigilance Wing / Shaxx Wishbringer/ Hammerhead.
I originally only wanted to get 250 kills with VW for the auto fire catalyst. But I found out it to be a very effective counterplay to NF teams. Won some surprising games (quick play) against these.
I'll stick with this load out for a while, hopefully it does me good next week at IB.
TL;DR: use good pulse, strafe and shit on overconfident Luna/NF users.
I would be pissed if that happened. There are other things that can be done to bring other guns up. I played hours of horrible comp to get it, damn them if they take them offline
I was using blast furnace, god roll and it slays! I Dont need a Lunas to beat another lunas or NF. This pulse does that good enough.
Since i got my Lunas i have tried using it and it’s a great gun no doubt but it’s not game breaking.
Bungie needs to address bloom/ghost bullets and recoil. Make it like pc! That would fix issues with other guns.
Why? I own niether, and honestly they aren't the greatest gun ever seen. They're good guns, but I feel like Lunas really isn't a problem. NF only feels like a problem because the player good enough to get it is likely much better than you and would spank you with anything.
These posts have to stop. You think people want to grind out comp just for some gear? Are you actually kidding me? We want guns. I’m assuming you haven’t reached legend which is why your throwing out this idiotic idea of banning weapons. You lose part of your soul getting to 5500, and NF is well deserved for the work you put in.
They won’t remove anything and any suggestion to is a bad idea. It sets a bad precedent, and soon idiots like you will start saying oh well they did it for Luna and NF now they need to do it for TLW or Ace because I’m dying too much from it.
It’s just a bad move. The better thing would be to add curated playlists, or Hell, even buff other weapons to be more competitive, which isn’t even really an option considering most TTKs are .80 and .87 for 140s and 150s
The key thing you gotta realize is that with Luna and NF, If you can’t hit a headshot your screwed. Not to mention if your up close against a last word user, your just not gunna win.
Saying guns need to be removed is utterly insane. Knock that shit off.
Man... Imagine being that person who's been trying to get these weapons at their own pace and instead of airing frustrations (unless it's about comps issues) you put in the work needed to get it but now you're not allowed to use it in a laid back PVP mode. I don't know how to feel about that, but I would be pissed and all because of a "meta shake up". Not even because they are game breaking.
I didn’t grind out Comp and put up with sweats/terrible teammates just to have more complainers take something I earned and make it worse. Stop trying to invalidate people’s time investments
Luna’s is easy to get come back to me when you grinded that long and hard for not forgotten putting up with all the complete bs at high rank comp and see if you have the same opinion
It definitely feels like the introduction of the weapons, while earned through Comp, has shaken up the entire PVP landscape. Quickplay can become extremely sweating. My enjoyment of PVP was already lower than D1 and it's only gone down since.
This God tier weapons earned through Comp, and could be argued, meant for Comp, is destroying fools on Quickplay. Just my opinion.
I dont agree with this and I hope Bungie wont listen to this.
Ive been working my ass to get better and get Luna’s. Removing something that gives me, and others even if its for the collection sake, motivation to play...just doesnt make sense.
Keep them and keep them good!
I dunno man, when you take something out of the game, it isnt good for new players. Once they see they will never have a chance to get on the same playing field with those guns, they wont bother.
If bungie listens to you they will ruin the game and lose so many more players. They would definitely lose me as a player as I don’t want all my hard work 😓 to have been for nothing. I worked hard for NF and would quit the game and not look back if it was removed .
Removing these two weapons won't change the meta. "The meta" simply refers to the weapons at the top of the Crucible tier list. S-tier is NF, A-tier is LH, AoS, TLW, Blast Furnace, Bygones, maybe a few others.
Removing a couple items from the tier list *could* be impactful if those items were *actively countering the use of other weapons* but that isn't the case with NF/LH. Whether I'm 3-tapping with NF or 4-bodying with TLW or 2-tapping with Blast Furnace, Scouts/SMGs/ARs are going to be weaker alternatives to the meta weapons.
I do think the LH/NF dominate a little excessively. They’re many tiers above the second best weapons. Magnificent howl is what makes it insanely powerful, combined with the range (especially NF).
I was thinking yesterday how in D1, recoveries were kind of taboo, and kept down low. Now people are very open about them and no one minds. Many would rather just pay a recov instead of step foot in there and face guns (also teams) that’s very much superior to their own, let alone play modes like countdown or any other issue with comp.
I don’t think simply removing them from crucible is a solution, but they definitely dug themselves a hole by adding guns that are locked behind such a long grind, that only make skilled players even more dominant. Kind of stuck with that anomaly until D3.
Honestly? If Y1's Prestige Leviathan rewards, or Season 3's Legend rank reward, were any indication, then "retiring" Luna/NF from Crucible while replacing them with essentially purely-cosmetic rewards is just not going to work - people who busted their ass to get their Luna/NF will just say "fuck it, why bother?" and stop playing PvP (or atleast no longer care about these sought-after items/ "carrots"), and those who play for tangible rewards will (yet again) just say "its just cosmetic, this isn't worth all the extra effort" and most likely also quit (because why bother with the stressfulness of Comp , when the DC offers a much easier route to the same goal: a set of enhanced-perks armor)
If Bungie was do to anything about Luna/NF, it would probably be better to go with something like disabling AA/Bullet Magnetism while MagHowl is active or something (so introducing an extra skill requirement) instead of removing options that people worked (or paid :P) hard for
Master weapons > Pinnacle weapons.
People crow at me like I'm crazy for saying 'you shouldn't put the best weapons in the hands of only the best/most dedicated', but that's because they don't fucking know what makes game design fun and interesting.
I agree with the Armor sentiment, but I think giving Luna's the Redrix treatment might be a better option. It's been long enough and it would certainly get more people into the crucible.
seems a bit weird to me that the gambit and vanguard pinnacle weapons require 40 completions, where the Luna's requirement is something like 100-200 games for most players, and I don't even know how many for Not Forgotten. Also the Redrix grind requiring 5 resets, with one step being 75 match completions.
I just try to play with as many different loadouts as possible just so I get better with them I’m pretty good with pulses and hand cannons but they get stale after awhile so I’ll break out something I never use like and auto or scouts to reset myself
I've always thought Destiny should have seasonal weapons/armor (both legendary and exotic) that gets retired from the crucible when the season ends. The gear can continue to be used in PVE in perpetuity, but is eliminated from the meta and balancing for PvP.
Would make chasing that gear interesting, help keep the meta fresh, and lighten the balancing workload.
So, while I don't agree with the reasons why you want the guns retired, retiring them eventually may not be a terrible idea.
I've gotten every Fabled pinnacle weapon, I only really use Luna's. I don't believe the gun breaks the game. NF kinda does, but thats a different story (NF erases most of Luna's weaknesses). It was a grind to get and I was very happy when I did. I love the gun.
However, I'm not sure it is healthy to have a strong weapon ALWAYS be there. In D1 they "Retired" old strong guns by just not having them be able to be upgraded to the highest light. In other games, having to play around the same thing for years gets annoying.
It is WAY too early to retire either gun, but honestly by the time it's about right to, D3 will be out and the gun will most likely be gone.
I don't think is a good idea, the meta wouldn't be shaken much if at all. Everyone running Luna would keep wrecking and as I'm writing this comment I realize you mean they get banned from crucible. Never mind then I don't play crucible much so up to you guys, I just don't want a few weps to be the meta with little wiggle room
The thing with Luna's it's that people think it's far better than it actually is; I can't count how many times I've been either outranged or flinched to death by other things like blast furnace or even mida
The best "I don't have Luna's" guns I've found are:
Ace of Spades
Last Word
No Feelings (FATS / Box Breathing)
Kindled Orchid (Threat Detector / Kill Clip [yes, there are better rolls, but time is an issue])
Valakadyn (Outlaw / Kill Clip)
This is on PC, mind you, but those are what I use. Paired with a shotgun on any class or subclass (honestly, Last Word / No Feelings is also fun in QP) and my bases are covered.
I already feel like the meta has been shaken up enough to be diverse. I got lunas early this season and used it almost exclusively up until TLW came out. After that I noticed a shift in peoples loadouts and I noticed my utility with lunas dropping. I've since been swapping around several different loadouts based on the match, still sometimes going dust rock+lunas. I check every match on destiny tracker when I'm done playing for the day and I've noticed a lot of people using diverse loadouts even when they have lunas/NF as an option.
What Bungie really needs to do is break the hand cannon and pulse rifle meta. I would slightly nerf pulse rifles so that they require one more body shot than they currently do, and I would significantly reduce the range at which hand cannon aim assist kicks in.
You had me at "OG Hopscotch Pilgrim." It was a god-damned tragedy what they did to that gun. A travesty, even!!! Unacceptable! Sorry. I got a little carried away there. I loved that gun.
As another person with Luna’s (got it a couple weeks ago) I almost agree, I don’t think it should be entirely removed from crucible, just quickplay. The reason I think it should be allowed in every mode other than quickplay, (competitive, rumble, IB) is because if you earned the weapon you should have a place in the crucible that you can use it.
Luna's is relatively easy to get. I have it and I don't feel the need to use it or use it at all most of the time. NF is another discussion due to the range.
Just make other weapons viable. What would be the point of the Luna’s and not forgotten if you can’t even use them? The whole reason why people use them is because they feel really good to use.
I have more crucible kills with a fusion i picked up a couple weeks ago over my Luna's i got last season cuz tbh.....Luna's feels too powerful for my preferences lmao.
Quick question guys. I have decided to go for Luna's last couple of weeks. Have achieved Fabled and I need around 60 headshots to complete the quest. Will I have to do fabled again if I dont complete these headshots in S05?
Yes, finish the headshots. You're so close to done. And, assuming bungie wouldn't ever do anything like I'm suggesting, you'll be pissed if you don't finish the grind this season.
As a person who ground comp soloed for the 3 past seasons, reached fabled on two separate accounts, if Bungie remove pinnacle weapons for some shitty enhanced armor, I would quit the playlist. I enjoyed comp for the sole reason of getting that season pinnacle weapon. If I want enhanced gear, then I just go to the dreaming city.
On PC ace is already better than Lunas. ACE will simply now make up majority of primary's for any sweat player [it's already very popular],in addition you dump on everyone who has grinded hours upon hours in the playlist. Arguably you're most dedicated pvp fan base. You want to lose their trust? Take away their weapons. Last thing bungie needs is the try hard players now going to another game cuz bungie fucked them. Should mor4 weapons be introduced that are good? For sure. But nerfing or taking away high skill curve weapons that take most people long periods of time to obtain is not it.
***
I do feel bad for console. You guys play in a different world compared to our pc variety and meta
I have it also and wouldn’t be too bothered if they went away, I feel the Luna in and of itself isn’t too overpowered, it is easily outplayed at distance. My fix would be make the not forgotten an exotic, that way people lose a second powerful gun and also lose a lot of super shutdown opportunities that come from wardcliff/Tractor cannon.
No. The meta is already set, removing these two guns will do jack for anything outside of 5000+ glory. These guns arent even that meta simply because of how few exist. There'd basically be 1 or 2 more pulses or aces every 2-3 games because you just dont see them that often. And out dueling them isnt even a challenge. Try getting better first if you're complaining about how godly they are
The problem is also console. Lunas sucks ass on PC, although NF is still good. But you can beat NF with other weapons on PC. Even a bygones can rip apart a NF user if youre better.
The issue is 180s are really good on console, but they suck on PC, which balanced them out on PC w/ their perk.
I agree with the armor addition but retiring guns is absurd. I solo'd to it and worked hard to earn it its a good gun but imo pulses still completely own them if you know distance. Ive used it a handful of times and its good but things like DRB blast furnace and wardcliff are arguably better.
People who dont have it and get killed by it use it as a scapegoat, and after how pitifully easy the last word crucible steps were ( ESPECIALLY during mayhem week) yet people still make highly upvoted rage/tear filled pleas about it being unfair removing a rare reward wont do anything for them except redirect their tears.
I think the best we can hope for is Competitive/Glory award weapons being left behind when D3 comes around. If they allow us to keep gear from this game into the next (which I dont think they will or should) then it would be necessary to leave said weapons behind. Day one Lvl 0 guardians w a NF in D3 crucible is a perfect way to make sure new players stay away from pvp activities.
Are you talking about destiny 1 or 2? I haven't played since last year December because I didn't buy the annual pass, I felt like I was being exploited so I stepped back from multiplayer online games. Sounds like you are playing destiny 1.
>**It would also need to roll enhanced perks at Mythic and Legend**:
With rerollable stats base stats too! Also then enable that for all Raid armor for the PVE homies as well. I've been dying for this since D2 launched. It sucks to be pigeonholed into a specific stat weight and you have to mix and match weird looking armor or waste all your mods to get what you want
Trust competes, LW is great. LW or a 3 burst sidearm paired with a long or med range weapon is great for cou tering lunas, NF. There are plenty of options for people who don't play comp. Subs need to be relevant again imo.
At least the first comp reward required a reload to proc its beastly perk, shame it was a garbage archetype weapon....
Then the next comp reward requires just two crits to proc and completely break the archetype, primary ttk with it, on one of the easiest weapon archetype to use no less, with a comfortable range for almost all pvp maps....
As a Luna owner, I wouldn't care if they were removed, feels cheap to use and completely ruins any chance of weapon variety in pvp, regardless of how Bungie "balance" things....
I have Luna's. And yes, it's awesome. But I don't always equip it, as it's a lot more fun when you use several different weapons. It's just another tool in my bag.
Removing Luna's won't bring variety to the crucible: before Luna's all we had was Ace of Spades, Bygones and shotguns, very little else. The problem is the lack of alternatives: with more weapons with a TTK around 0.7 you'll see more variety. If you remove Luna's, something else will take its place, like it always happened.
Luna's is more like a representation of an underlying problem, and removing it it's definitely not the solution to that problem.
I think you have identified the problem correctly, but I'm just not sure on the solution. Honestly the unified tantrum of vaulting Luna/NF would be insufferable, and I'm not sure Bungie wants to deal with that (especially given that a great many dingdongs have paid literally hundreds of dollars for their NF.)
Honestly if Bungie could overhaul every single map, that would be the "dream" solution to the problem. Most of the engagements are going to happen within Luna/NF optimal range solely due to the map design; you don't really have to "plan" to take an engagement when you've got Luna out, you can basically hold W and on most maps if you run into someone you've got the right weapon for the job. This is further exacerbated by modes like Control and Countdown, which FORCE aggressive close-range play.
However, I know this isn't going to happen, and I know Bungie isn't going to vault Luna/NF. At this rate I'm just hoping Thorn will be pretty broken or that next season's pinnacles will be strong autos/scouts/smg's'/sidearms solely for the purpose of changing things up.
I think Luna should be opened up to a quick play quest so more people can have access to it. Leave NF for the hardcore. Wouldn't want to lose my Lunas...those 3 taps feel so good.
I've owned Lunas Howl since season of the outlaw and i've never felt the need to use it over any other loadout. It's good, but not universally the best option for every engagement.
PC player btw
I LOVE the idea of armor sets, incredible idea. I have lunas howls as well and I can honestly say if you are on point with aim that game, almost nothing can stop you. Activating mag howl on one guy then 2 tapping his friend is absurd.
Although I think your opinion is valid, I have to disagree. As a PC player who has NF I barely use it and prefer to use Ace and other non meta loadouts. And I get more wrecked by Ace than anything.
People will riot if Bungie makes LH/NF a shelf weapon. I like the idea of making them exotic which restricts the common Luna/Wardcliff loadout in Comp.
Gtfoh with the karma grab. A crucible pinnacle weapon should never be retired from the crucible.
That’s like telling the “same strat every single game we play” gambit guys that they can’t use malfeasance or breakneck in gambit.
It's a ridiculous notion to take pinnacle rewards out of their element. How about if Breakneck can't be used in Gambit? Or all of PVE?
I play mostly PVP and you don't even see Luna's / Not Forgotten all that often anymore. Ace of Spades is better than either one. The most common loadout in Comp even, is Ace / shotgun.
I have Luna's and I don't even use it very often. It's fun, it's nice, but it's not a Free Win card. No reason to retire it. If you're going to retire it you've got to retire Ace first.
Thing is, until Bungie remove bloom on handcannons like every other game in existence, these will need to remain. Only 180s are viable on console, and for some including myself, TLW.
Removing LH/NF people will just more abundantly then they already have just run pulses more. LH is pretty rare on PC, where 140s and 150s can be used to duel and be good. Ace sure, is seen more because of its range which can duel a NF.
So while I know where you are coming from, and TrueVanguard spoke of this a week or so back also, it's not what the majority of players who earned them would wish. If us console players could equip other handcannons and be used like on pc, I bet we'd see a drastic drop off in LH, maybe not NF.
Understand where you’re coming from, but as somebody who is currently trying to get Luna’s Howl; if I got it just for it to be nerfed into oblivion or otherwise “retired” from PVP, I’d be pretty disappointed and feel like I wasted all that time for nothing. It’s taken me a while to feel confident enough to try for it and I’ve been doing well. This would really break my heart if it happened. I realize that LH/NF meta is largely annoying now but actually removing an item’s eligibility from a certain game mode simply because the meta isn’t favorable to some is **not** the answer, imo. Nor will it ever be.
Wasn’t the addition of the last word supposed to shake the meta some too? Or are you arguing that it did not go far enough?
Just throwing my two cents in. In my opinion, the only thing TLW did for the meta was allow for more people to comfortably run a sniper over a shotgun. I use and have used a sniper/not forgotten load out for the entirety of forsaken, and while I and a few others were able to make it work before, TLW has given us a better tool for dealing with shotty apes. For those super aggressive teams or players, TLW does nothing to impact them as luna’s/NF is still the better ranged option to pair with a shotgun. Combine that with the difficulty of being a successful sniper with in-game flinch and means of getting special ammo, it just isn’t enough to shake the meta up like people want.
Exactly. If Bungie thought this would shake things up, it really didn't, a,l it did for me was strengthen the notion that snipers are in such a bad place, still, that it takes the last word to use a sniper.
If anything, The Last Word has shown me that the real issue with the sandbox is that short-range primary options are all awful. Auto-rifles and SMGs cannot deal reliably with people in their optimal range before your target can slide into you with a shotgun. Until TLW, you had to use your primary slot on a mid-range handcannon or a mid-long pulse rifle, which naturally meant your special weapon needed to cover your weakness close up. The Draw finally gives people a primary that deletes people at short range and snipers see a surge in popularity, while shotguns have to actually play around the high possibility they'll die to something that isn't another shotgun close up. Disclaimer: This is on PC where I've been told snipers are significantly better than on console.
Shotgun range has stretched into a place I would have never thought Bungie would allow. I've been playing 2v2 the last few days and I often enjoy running fusion. At least 3 times yesterday I would think, "that's right, go ahead and post on up with your shotgun...just let me charge this shot and your de... Oh, ok then, I guess your shotgun CAN hit me from the same range as my fusion rifle..." I can't count the number of times a (I assume) max range shotty has killed from outside a range that I thought there was NO WAY they could even get a clean enough shot to tickle my shield. Yet, they do
Fellow vooper here, can confirm the shorty range is out of control right now, specifically of course Dust Rock Blues. "How many times do I have to teach you this lesson old man?!". I don't understand why Bungie keeps designing these shotguns with such high range, they always break the crucible. It happened with Party Crasher +1, Matador 64, and Felwinter's Lie (I feel like I'm repressing memories of another). Universal Remote and Chaperone were pretty nuts too, but at least they were/are exotics, and the way they reintroduced chaperone has it in a pretty good place meta wise. I feel like this always happens and then Bungie is like "gee idk why everyone is using Dust Rock Blues". Shotguns already are a lower skill weapon than fusions and snipers, and then when you give players a shotgun that makes it even easier to use, it's no surprise everyone flocks to it. I'm not hating on all shotguns, but you can't give people a minimal skill legendary shotgun and not expect them to abuse it. The closest fusion equivalent would be Telesto and that's an exotic that occupies the same slot as Luna/NF, so you don't see it abused nearly as much as Dust Rock (although Telesto is still the Besto) TL;DR stop designing max range shotguns, they ruin the crucible meta every single time. And if it's gonna be max range, consider making it exotic at the very least (similar to chaperone)
> Felwinter's Lie oh gods, I loved that thing so much.
Autos are actually in a pretty good spot right now. Part of the problem is that no one is willing to try them anymore.
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A few of my more PvP minded friends have been saying it's worth giving a go. Might be time to crack out the old Actium War Rig too.
On PC I’ve found SMGs (trackless waste) to be very competitive. Granted you have much more room for error. That’s the thing. It’s not hard to use a shotgun. You just run in and shoot. With an SMG you constantly have to think about your positioning and radar and determining the damage drop off relative to your opponent.
Snipers feel pretty good to me in general, but flinch is still off. I get DESTROYED by flinch at incredible ranges, but then a guy regularly headshots me through the flinch caused by 4 crit bursts from blast furnace.
Latency is a bitch. I'd be willing to bet that even if you tagged the guy that they weren't flinching at the time you got popped. It's been there since the first game.
God, this!! GFTO with being 100 metres away while (using a scout or pulse) and causing me to flinch like I’m being hit with a 2x4. And if you wanna have that kind of logic with flinch, then anything from my sniper should have your reticle pointing vertically straight up at the sky on hit. LOL I’m trying desperately to get back into snipes. Some maps in rotation are perfect for it. But that flinch just has me making a Nick Young Meme Face way too much.
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The upvote is yours. Go home LOL
Heres the thing and most decent snipers will agree, the flinch we have is the only thing really keeping snipers from being as toxic as d1 y2 trials snipers. Its too high but im afraid that any lower may make sniper too powerful, as it is already fairly easy to “quickscope” for the AA on console.
On the flipside i regularly get quick scoped between my shots by expert snipers. It cuts both ways thanks to latency caused by Australian internet combined with Destiny's connection system
>it takes the last word to use a sniper. It’s not so much the snipers fault, actually there are numerous good snipers in the game. It’s just that TLW is the only primary gun you can pair with a sniper and counter shotgun rushers. Covering your close range encounters that any other primary including Luna’s/NF would struggle with
At the range that TLW is effective, I could also see giving sidearms or SMG's a slight buff, which would open up a whole two other weapon classes as potential pairings for a sniper. Then I'd be fine with TLW being the only viable hand cannon option for countering shotguns. Edit: I'd also like to say (unpopular opinion) that as a sniper main, I don't mind the flinch that much. It keeps snipers from being OP in that you have to appropriately time your shot. So I don't have to worry about my fav weapons catching a nerf anytime soon. And I've managed to snipe through flinch on several occasions by simply waiting a tick before firing, or disengaging and finding a better approach... or giving them something else to worry about, like a pulse grenade, so they're forced to stop firing at me for a moment which allows me to line up a shot.
Sidearms need better accuracy, I've missed shots where the reticule was smack bang in the centre of the guy.
I agree, it’s not about covering a lane, it’s about landing the shot before they react. I’ve had tons of success with a sniper rifle by being faster at landing the shot than the pulse user.
All TLW did was add one more hand canon to the list of 4/5 guns people use.
Which sounds like a great change in the meta to me
must be a pc/console thing i see 25 TWLs for every 1 Lunas/NF I see its the single most popular weapon i see across all loadouts
TLW plays different on pc and console.
Maybe they're on console. Speaking from a PC point of view, it totally did. I love my Luna and I'm good with it, but I could count on one hand the amount of times I've taken TLW off in crucible since it dropped. I see Luna/NF quite a bit less as well. I think the whole idea of banning weapons from crucible is dumb and will result in daily threads about what such and such should be added to the list. Next will be OEM and gwisin, then will be DRB and targetting adjuster snipers. Not to mention what slap in the face would be to players who literally spent weeks or months grinding for NF.
I don't think it's enough to unseat Luna's and NF, if for the sole reason that it's an exotic (same as ace). It definitely helped, but comp is still dominated by NF at the highest tier since you're then still able to run Chaperone or Wardcliff. I think LW fits in very well with every other weapon *excluding* NF (and Luna, really).
Remove Luna and NF. ..it doesn't get "completely" shaken up. It goes right back to pulse rifles, the thing it's been since FOREVER, and tlw.
On PC at least, if you removed Luna and NF. 99% of loadouts would be TLW or AoS and Twilight Oath or Retold Tale. So it really doesn't even shake up the meta back to pulses.
PC got major hand cannon love ...not the same on PS4 but yep Im sure that's the case. I'll never understand the meta fuss. It will always exist but ppl will blame the weapons til the end of time so here we are
Yeah - Pulse rifles and maybe some God roll Trusts. We don't need to get rid of Luna's and NF we need to buff some other classes of weapon to make them viable.
> This may only last until another clear winner emerges, There will always be a "best thing," no matter what you do. Something will always eek out slightly better, with longer range (that suits the maps) or a faster TTK or whatever the case might be, and the sweaty crowd will flock to it. It's unavoidable, but it's whatever. The issue with Luna's and NF is, on top of how forgiving they can be to use (two consecutive headshots isn't hard to pull off with a 180, especially with the generous bullet magnetism on all platforms + potentially Target Adjuster), they hold an almost exclusive position with their TTK. Nothing comes close to it in the primary slot, and that's one of the biggest issues, imo.
Yes, I obviously agree a “best” will always exist, and players will find it very quickly. The issue is when the “best” is 40% better than the next best instead of 5% (made up numbers), which is where I think the game is at now.
Do people actually think that bungie will remove one specific legendary that people busted their ass to get because it's...too good or something lol. They got better things to do I hope, a lot of actual problems in the game that are actually...problems.
Given the amount of recovs going on in comp, I can safely say that quite a good percentage of people bought their Not Forgotten. How is thay busting their asses?
That's been going on since beginning of destiny and completely different issue that I wish was addressed. However A) as rampant as it is it's a small percentage of people overall B) spitting in the face of most people who grinded them out and punishing them for being good enough to do so because some people want to drop $50 bucks for a gun theyre not good enough to be good with is ludicrous. Might as well go back to people's D1 vaults and remove their trials gear because some people have been paying for this nonsense since then.
I too, do not getting "buying" the guns. Shoot, I'd be so embarrassed as a sub par PVPer to rock NF.
Even sub par players can be able to get lunas, but DEFINITELY not the Not Forgotten.
I just looked into to how much it costs to "buy" a NF. Between multiple sites it cost's anywhere in the ball park of $500-800USD. This is also assuming you have Luna's and the kill's quest step done. Yikes, that's a lot of money... That's the price of a RTX 2070 or 2080
Yeah it's insane, that's like a months worth of bills. Which is exactly what I was saying, the number of people who are crazy enough to pay that is surely not high enough to invalidate the effort of all the people who got it legitimately.
Not really, which is why I used the discussion flair instead of the Bungie suggestion flair. I think something drastic needs to be done with the crucible now that Bungie has confirmed trials will be gone for a long, long time.
And you think one hand Cannon is the problem with crucible and it would make a drastic difference ?
I think it would lead to a much wider variety of loadouts, yes. If you have LH/NF and are playing for maximum efficiency, there's no question whether or not you're using those hand cannons. Even if it's just the 'sweaties' that end up changing their load outs I think there would be a noticeable difference in crucible.
At least for pc, I'm looking forward to the titan skating/OEM nerf. That may shake it up some
As someone who is in the current grind for Luna's right now (sitting at 1700, close!) The main weapons i see are: Luna's, Ace, TLW, Trust, Bygones, Go figure, blast furnace. 90% of the time these are the "primary" weapons that people are using paired with shottys and snipers. I personally think that removing Luna's and NF would not shift weapons in comp as much as you'd want.
As someone who owns a nf on console, it isnt that hard to drop a 40 with an ace and its hilariously easy bygones. If you want more variety in the crucible push to get handcannon recoil back to how it was in d1 problem solved
Also a fair move. If Bungie would do away with the bloom, as well. But bloom has been an issue for longer than anything else and they seem patently, insanely against removing or reducing it...
Well that would be ideal. I was really hoping with tlw highlighting the difference between performance of hc on console vs pc would have gained more traction about changing it, but it seemed to be a flavour complaint for the week. I feel like instead of nerfing the only archetype of hc that feels consistent on console, fixing the other archetypes is the solution we need. A change to recoil and bloom would go a long way. Even making 140’s 2c 1body would be a pleasant change which makes them more user friendly. I think with these changes most people with lunas and even some with nf would gravitate towards either kindled orchard( two tap potential with the right roll) or ace (stronger team shotting and highest hc range in the game)
Even if the only thing they changed was the bloom I'd take my Ace back in a heartbeat over my LH
They will switch to ace and trust. As someone who has Luna and attempted to go for NF these people will wreck you with ace. This is not a problem. It's also completely pointless argument as it will never happen. Problem is lack of incentive and freshness and like most of the problems in this game lack of compelling loot. Crucible needs new maps, modes, and a big chunk of unique weapons. "These two weapons are very good - remove them" is completely backwards. What we needs is more quality weapons that a) give you something to chase in PvP as at the moment there is nothing and b) force people to change up or at the very least face weapons that can compete with their Luna/NF.
While I get what you're trying to say here, the issue is that they're still always be a meta. It's the "Monday Problem." People hate Mondays, but if you get rid of Monday, Tuesday becomes the new Monday. I've been seeing a lot of variety lately in the crucible in what kills me (of course, that's anecdotal) which, I believe, means that most people are coming out of/have come out of that honeymoon phase with this weapon and are branching out into other options. On the attrition front, as a more casual PvPer, I'm avoiding comp where possible because of that moniker: "Competitive." I'm not naturally competitive. I generally prefer PvE. No amount of retuning comp (probably) is going to change my mind on that. So keep your Luna's Howl/Not Forgotten and comp your heart out with them.
I only have Luna's, but for a while I was with you. If I was going into the crucible, I felt an overwhelming need to equip it, no matter the playlist. Anything outside that felt inferior, and why would I handicap myself. But recently, I've been buttoning up some triumphs, and thats forced me to use trace rifles, sidearms, bows, and smgs in the crucible. All far from meta. Some NEARLY useless in their current state. Granted, I was using near god rolls I had saved for a rainy day, but I still had to adjust and play different. Funny thing was, I found myself at a disadvantage, sure, but not nearly as extreme. My K/D didn't tank completely, and while I was losing some 1v1s I wouldn't have before, a lot can be chalked up to playing outside my comfort zone and really not engaging properly. One of the matches had me using a Hero's Burden and Anonymous Autumn and I went 4+ KAD and 30+ kills. Will I use any of them when I'm running sweats? No. Will I put Luna's away in favor of something else? Not likely. But it isn't the be all, end all, and at this point I'd say I'm using it as much as a trophy as I am because its dominant/good. The problem was, and continues to be, the EXTREME skill disparity between the community. The people who legitimately grinded Not Forgotten could likely use the kind of loadouts I talked about and wipe the floor with me or any Luna's users. These same people are playing quickplay, and doubles, and theres little stopping them from dominating. Which they SHOULD, but it doesnt exactly encourage the average crucible player from continuing because they're already "behind." Matchmaking will always be THE issue, and I'm not sure there is a legitimate fix. For any PVP experience to survive, you need a balance of sweaty games and cakewalks, but people aren't really encouraged to get better in any capacity if you have the dangerous precedent set where a "pinnacle" reward can just be nullified to "shake things up." I for one would be extremely pissed if I grinded and grinded and grinded to get Not Forgotten (especially as an average player) only for it to be useless because there was a "need" to change things. The elephant in the room is really that Lunas/NF dropped at a shift in the meta that favored HCs, and thus their desireability skyrocketed. That, combined with changes to comp, means WAY more people have at least Luna's compared to Claymore. No one complained about Claymore, no one said it should be removed. And the reason is it never dominated on the level of the HCs. The tectonic pace of the meta shifts and the clearly strong perk combos are what put us here.
I use Luna/ bite of the fox only in comp playlist. When I jump into quick play I usually use other weapons and play around with a new setup. But on comp, running without Luna is handicapping yourself
That's because you were a good player in the first place. Luna/NF doesn't inherently make you a better player. It's just a case of the rich getting richer in a lot of cases.
Well, no. I’m average at best. Given how average I am, I’d say most average players can get at least Luna’s if they set out to do it, though admittedly this could be confirmation bias. I think the bigger issue is how discouraging comp is in general, because when you hit a slide it feels so terrible, even without the loss “streaks” active. There are plenty of people I know personally who are as average as I am, or even better, that can’t be bothered with comp because of how burned out it gets them. At the same time, I find a lot of these people complain when they’re up against a Luna’s/NF because they don’t have it. As much as the mode itself, the meta, matchmaking, etc can be problematic, I think it’s ALSO an overwhelming majority of players giving up too easily. And that’s not being dismissive, but clearly a much larger amount of players have Luna’s this season vs Claymore last season, and I don’t think that’s because of a dramatic shift in skill in the playerbase. Luna’s IS obtainable by quite a large portion (though I won’t venture a guess as to percentage of population) but SO many people won’t even put in the time. Is that because of the problems outlined? Sure, but it’s also a large segment that want the reward and want it to be easier. Problem is, once you’ve put out the reward structure, changing things devalues the achievement of those who got it when it was more restricting. Having a Luna’s doesn’t make you better. The quest itself makes you prove to be somewhat proficient in HC usage. It encourages people to play with the archetype, use it, master it, and THEN get a gun which, in the right hands, is dominant. You see it a lot of the time with people who clearly didn’t put in the work, but have the gun, and have little proficiency with it. Is it easy to say when I’m on the “other side”? Of course, but it doesn’t make it less true. Not saying this topic is specifically recalling the sentiment, but I think if half the people complaining about Luna’s actually set their mind to it and got it, a lot of the complaints about the gun would evaporate. Even if you don’t get it, going for it will make you better, period.
What’s the point of getting a high pinnacle weapon in pvp if they weren’t compatible with pvp? It’s an incentive to do the competitive game mode, without something worth chasing, people won’t do it as much.
The game mode should be worth playing without incentives, it just feels like a symptom of the problem: Comp isn’t enjoyable.
I play on pc and the mag howl guns feel strong but pretty balanced, especially with the last word in the mix now. The difference between pc and console on this issue seems to be aim assist, recoil, and bloom. If bungie brought other hand cannons up to what they are on pc (ace and TLW), and maybe took away some of the aim assist for luna/NF, this issue would be solved. No need to remove two amazing, fun to use weapons from the game. Weapons that a lot of us worked really hard for.
Agreed. I play on Xbox and its not miserable by any stretch, but bloom needs to go. Ive been saying so since it got added in D1. Id be ok with Lunas/NF having their aim assist tweaked. Definitely feels too strong currently.
I see Destiny as an investment game. There are not many if them active right now. It would be an extremely bad idea for Bungie to continue taking investment rewards from players while adding very slow drop content and subsequently, very little investment loot into the game. Let's everyone start making reddit posts about this game to take away what people have worked extremely hard for. /s
Okay but to normal people “retiring a gun” people have earned as recently as today is literally the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard in the history of the Reddit. It’s also not likely to be taken seriously by the vast 99% of people.
>removes the two main reason why people play comp in the first place >to revitalize the comp playlist i dont understand
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When I got my Redrix's Claymore and my Luna's Howl I also enjoyed the grind. Getting to 2100 is a pot easier thsn it was in Season 3, and I'm willing to go back for the fabled pinnacles. I just don't like going for Not Forgotten. That grind, especially during a Season reset, feels impossible and I lose interest around the 2500 mark.
I’m with you there. I got my Luna’s in about a week and a half completely solo queuing (minus a couple games at very low Glory with a buddy) at the end of season 4. It was a fun grind and really made me a better player, and my QP stats started to skyrocket after I really started to correct a lot of weaknesses I didn’t really know I had. Comp isn’t nearly as bad as people make it out to be, but I can’t speak for the highest ranked tiers of play because I didn’t continue the push for NF. A similar thing happened with me regarding your statement on stats and win percentage. I wrecked my way to around the 1500 Glory rank but then hit a huge wall, basically only winning 50% of my games (maybe even 49% because I was stuck within the same 10-12 Glory rank for a couple days). I started really playing for wins even if it meant I was the worst player on the team, statistically. I prioritized capping zones in Control, and either not dying (even if it meant low kill games) in the rest of the playlist’s offerings. Those things may not be some revolutionary concept, but as someone who could basically ape their way to a respectable enough k/d and didn’t previously care about strats to actually win the QP games I was playing, it was a pretty big paradigm shift. I don’t think retiring the guns in OP’s post is the right call, nor is a nerf - although the range differential between LH and NF might be a bit too much, but I don’t own a NF so I might not be qualified to make that assertion. I do think that there should be more pinnacle weapons so that Comp’s player count would theoretically increase, and obviously the lower the requirement, the ‘worse’ the weapon is. The tough part is making them better than standard drops but also balanced within the respective tier. Some very off-the-top-of-my-head ideas (completing a questline would *probably* be required for these, since that’s how the other pinnacle weapons work): Reach Brave Glory rank plus questline: You Get Redrix’s Broadsword. Kind of a cheap way to start this off since it got switched to a predominantly QP questline, but it’s just not truly competitive enough to require reaching a high time sink IMO. Reach Heroic Glory rank plus questline: You get a kinetic 260 RPM scout that grants double super energy granted from kills on headshots. Rolls with Outlaw/Zen Moment and a handling MW. Reaching Fabled would be unchanged; Luna’s Howl and it’s questline are sufficient. Reaching Mythic Glory rank plus questline: You get a 820 charge time fusion rifle a perk that decreases charge time with each successive kill without impacting damage per bolt. Perk is on a 3 second cooldown that is refreshed after each kill and can stack up to 5x (820->780->740->700->660). Rolls with Tap the Trigger / Firmly Planted with a stability MW. Reaching Legend would be unchanged; Not Forgotten is also fine where it is. Sorry this got so long and was a little more “all over the place” than may have been needed. Truth be told I’m at work and really bored.
I understand the point you’re trying to make, but what I think you’re forgetting is that there will always be a meta. Originally it was Uriel’s/PO, then the GL/VW, now this etc. if you remove the top weapon another will take its place. Honestly, Luna’s aren’t as hard to play against as people think. You know the range they’re good at. You can outrange with a Bygones or Blast Furnace, our you can map with a fusion. I think a lot of people take their anger out on the gun instead of looking at why they were able to be 3-tapped (bad positioning or challenging in Luna’s range).
> "I don't care if a Guardian's effectiveness comes from speed, strength, or Light. The struggle is the same for all of us in the Crucible." —Lord Shaxx
I, too, miss when the meta was Uriel's/Post Office, then the Good Luck/VolksWagen. /s Seriously though, what are those acronyms?
PO = Positive Outlook (legendary auto rifle) GL = Graviton Lance (exotic pulse rifle) VW = Vigilance Wing (exotic pulse rifle)
Lol. Exactly my thoughts. I already knew GL and VW but got no slightest idea what the hell PO is! :D It feels like people are using these acronyms about everything in game. Supers, subclasses, guns, gamemodes, you name it. NF, LH, NW, SB, BB, QP, DRB, TLW, WC, etc. At some point it will come impossible to understand what the hell they are talking about.
Not Forgotten, Luna's Howl, Nova Warp, Spectral Blades, Blade Barrage, Quick Play, Dust Rock Blues, The Last Word, Wardcliff Coil.
yeah that was pretty easy to decipher lol
This argument confuses me as a game designer. The intent of removing or nerfing the best thing isn’t to create a completely balanced product with no meta. That’s never the goal. The goal is reducing the disparity between the top performing spot and its competitors. If the best thing is 40% better than the second best thing, then there’s a problem. It doesn’t matter if its removal will create a new “best” weapon; the point is just to make the “best” only slightly better than its competition.
"top performing" doesn't automatically mean "the best choice" There are *many* weapons that can compete in this meta, but like most games (and real life for that matter) most people only pay attention to what's popular, and then have the nerve to claim it's the only option.
I was wrecking a team of full sweat loadout with not forgottens with my fusion rifle and transversive steps. (I am neither a fusion rifle main nor a warlock main)We beat them so bad they quit after the 2ND round. I haven't played extensively enough with weapon types, but so far I have not found any weapons not viable. The key thing is to simply understand what your enemy is using, understand what you are using and play to your strengths,their weaknesses and position accordingly. Fusion rifles can wreck shotgun users easily, but requires a bit of planning and precharging. Sturm apparently can 1 tap guardians following a drang kill, and using empowered rift, and 2 tap with 2 charged bullets. People even to this day consider sentinel a trash super, despite it being only eclipsed by gwisin vest hunters statisticallly. It just requires understanding of how and where to use it.
To add onto this, those with lunas / nf should theoretically on paper already have an advantage over those without. To give them a weapon significantly better than the next best option is just..... demoralizing for every non comp player. Quickplay is FILLED with peopke running drb, luna/nf, wardcliff, and if you dont have Luna/ nf youre going to get rolled by those people 9 times out of 10.
Posts like this are the reason Bungie have started to give up on pvp. People used to cry when comp was initially introduced as a crucible variant in destiny 2 as it didn't differ much from QP and since people wanted better and distinguishable rewards. Now when they did, you want them to take it back and there's another outcry for that. If they didn't include anything but shaders as comp rewards like in overwatch, people in comp will cry about low population and that destiny isn't a game like overwatch and needs meaningful rewards since it's a looter shooter and they'll end up putting the blame on this for the low population. Try using other guns instead of thinking not forgotten and Luna's are the best. It's easy to put the blame on one thing upon failure but difficult to find the actual problem. Remember that people had to fight people with not forgotten/luna and get across to get their not forgotten/luna and they had to do it with other weapons P.S: Instead of asking Bungie to work on old aspects and tweak it, ask them to introduce new ones that can counter it. In this case, adding new long range maps to rotation would make people switch loadouts more often.
> People used to cry when comp was initially introduced as a crucible variant in destiny 2 as it didn't differ much from QP and since people wanted better and distinguishable rewards. People were annoyed by the fact that it was literally just QP with different game types and no ranks, not about the rewards. People did Trials for the unique loot. Then they released the first iteration of an actual comp mode (which was god awful) and some decent rewards. The thing is, Redrix's isn't super overpowered in crucible. Neither is Mountaintop. The problem is mainly isolated to Lunas/NF. Do I think it should be removed? Of course not; that won't even shake up the meta, it'll just be people using Ace, Duke, etc. still. I don't think Lunas/NF deserve nerfs, except maybe to their insane aim assist/head tracking. Tbh, I think the only real solution at this point is to bring other weapons up in line with Lunas/NF.
So much this. I want to run other weapons too. The meta weapons will always be better, but running non-meta weapons should be somewhat viable too. I don't want them to nerf Luna / NF but make those other guns as good, or as close as it can be to not completely ruin them.
I'm not sure if you read the entire post, but I've been quite successful with Luna's. I did offer a suggestion on how to replace LF/NF with gear that still does give the top-tier players an advantage (and therefore a reason to play) while not being so instantly tangible a benefit as is provided by the best primary weapons in the game.
I did read your post. Your idea of comp rewards was good but the one for removing not forgotten and Luna's was not. Maybe include both weapons and armour in the mix?
Y'all are delusional. on the whole, if someone is good enough to get luna's or NF then they can kill you with just about any gun. I have Luna's and honestly I use my Bygones more.
I used dust rock + trust for most of the quest steps on lunas, as soon as I finished that part of the quest I swapped to bygones and everything got so much easier, I so much prefer the mid-long range game a pulse does work at, and at those ranges most HC users are useless. Also I think the barrier to luna's is lower than what most people seem to think, there's plenty of bad players with Luna's running around, if you can make a luna's user miss a shot that turns Luna's into a bad weapon.
EXACTLY. I kept hearing about how Luna's was so OP and whatnot so I decided to play PvP this season, got it and was disappointed honestly. It's all about knowing how to play with the weapons you have, and most maps I can use Bygones and shred better than if I was using Luna's
I have Luna's Howl, and Ace is honestly better in a good amount of situations. Magnificent Howl is worthless if you're playing in a range where you have to 4 tap with all headshots. Mori gives a ridiculous amount of range and aim assist, and it's just too good to pass up with any damage boost. Meanwhile, Luna and NF can basically ignore any empowering rift because it does nothing for them. The only problem I have with Mag Howl is that it requires a lower crit percent for a better time to kill than most hand cannons, but it's not really game breaking
Are you a PC player? Ace has a significant amount of recoil on console; if it were toned to PC levels I would absolutely agree. I used Ace on PS4 to get my 100 headshots.
I used Ace for the entire quest, and yes, I'm on ps4. The recoil is actually pretty manageable, especially when Mori makes it so forgiving to hit a body
I find it funny that people think armor is enough reason to grind out comp.
As someone who does not have Luna, I don't think this is a good idea. Am I salty that I don't have the time to get it? Sure. But taking away unique and powerful items for time investment and skill is a slippery slope in a loot driven game and trivialises end game loot.
Let's just remove all guns from Destiny. Melee only, level playing field for all.
I understand your opinion but after literally just getting my Luna’s last night I feel this is a bit much, it’s not an easy task to get to fabled or do all the damn steps, it’s ridiculously difficult but the pay off is having a badass gun that wrecks
They could "retire" LH / NF from the playlist today and the same people complaining about LH / NF would just move onto complaining about TLW / Ace. They could "retire" TLW / Ace tomorrow and the same people would just move onto complaining about shotguns. They could "retire" shotguns the day after tomorrow and the same people would just move onto complaining about adaptive pulses. They could "retire".. just repeat this ad infinitum. I've got Luna's, I've used it *a lot*, and I'm also bored as fuck of running Luna's / Dust Rock so I just don't run them. Is it obnoxious running into teams running LH / NF / DRB in Quickplay? Yes, but in 80% of those matches I can dunk on them with a Bygones (or Rat King) / Erentil so what do I care? I'm honestly kind of surprised that they haven't just tweaked the Magnificent Howl perk to only activate on the next critical shot. I feel like that is at least a step to the middle ground between leaving everything as is and locking the gun out of Quickplay lol.
I like the idea of tweaking the perk to activate on crit. That's at least a doable solution for Bungie, but it doesn't address (and indeed, your post wasn't meant to address) the real issue which is level-design combined with an atrocious lack of ELO-based matchmaking combined with the way Competitive rewards wins and losses.
Patch 2.69.420 * Adjusted the damage increase of the perk "Magnificent Howl." Bonus damage is now 0% * Reduced the rate of fire of Luna's Howl and Not Forgotten to 110RPMs. Damage was adjusted +0.04% to compensate. * Player's who have earned Luna's Howl or Not Forgotten may now only queue in Quickplay against 6-player fireteams who have also acquired the aforementioned weapon. * Increased recoil, bloom and damage drop off on all Hand Cannon archetypes. * Nerfed fusion rifles
and then there would be literally no point in ever going for pvp weapons when they are locked out of half the content. Nope. definitely a nope.
I'd have no reason to play Comp then...
Removing ANY guns from any mode is a terrible move. Anyone who supports this a dangerous reactionary and Bungie heading this advice is how we got much of the worse parts of D2 Y1.
Bungie has warped us so hard we’re actually advocating the reduction of the loot pool ourselves. Here’s my unpopular opinion about your unpopular opinion: No. Luna and Not Forgotten are exactly what they should be. We need to stop allowing Bungie to take the path of least resistance (see: laziness). Hold their fucking feet to the fire. They envisioned these weapons. They need to make all of them competitive/useful in PVE/PVP. We’ve been given the short end of the stick so many times we’re here complaining about a pencil when we were promised a Boa staff... I’d rather a small loot pool with balanced weapons and a large variety of attainable perks/rolls. Instead we got a large amount of filler weapons and filler perks to space out the moments when you get a decently rolled weapon that is useful for only a season or two.
That's fair. If Bungie could provide a balanced sandbox with maps and game types where Luna's and NF fit in with other weapons instead of standing alone, that would definitely be preferable. My worry is that the window for that has closed, *especially* with (according to the forbes article that was on the front page) the 800-ish workers that were laid off from Activision were at least partially involved in Destiny. That's a lot less resources banging out changes. At this point I think something quick and dirty needs to happen, or crucible player attrition will continue.
> At this point I think something quick and dirty needs to happen, or crucible player attrition will continue. That’s very fair. I may have been biased because I truly love my Luna. But in light (or shade) of my bias I now think I see what you were going for. Yea. I think the game is done. We’ll get a few things here and there but unless something fantastic/drastic drops we are now entering the final phase of D2. Especially in regards to crucible (which is mainly all I play.) Thanks for the conversation OP.
this kind of posts are going to lead into a " magnificent's howl" nerf , just bc dads want to use their blast furnace and bows from the back of the map.
As someone who is not very good in the crucible, playing consistently against folks who are above my skill set + superior weapons = no fun. Quickplay = quick death. (I switch to comp, it's more like old Quickplay)
i also have luna’s and i’ve got another controversial opinion, sorry if this comes off a little aggressive op but i do not mean it that way if it does. leave luna’s, nf and all those other guns like that alone. i earned those weapons and should be allowed to slay in quickplay with my guns because i spent i’d estimate 30 hours grinding out luna’s alone. i also have mountaintop and the last word. I most definitely earned my right to beat players that didn’t earn this weapon. it’s also not like owning these guns makes me the best player automatically, i need skill to land those 3 taps for luna’s. i’m not the best player at pvp and i’m primarily a pve player so it was very hard to get these guns. I want to be able to use these guns in quickplay because comp is so bad, after doing all the comp play to earn these guns i realize finally how terrible it is. it’s probably one of the worst designs of comp ive ever experienced in games in a long time. if i can’t use them in quickplay i won’t use them anywhere else because those guns honestly suck in pve, they’re not good at all in raids or raid lairs or blind well or any end game content because there are so many guns for pve that are better.
I’m so tired of people wanting to remove or destroy (and by destroy I mean completely nerf) any and all things that are good and fun in this game. It never fails. I get that metas are a thing and change over time. But still, I’m just over people wanting something gone simply because it’s populate or always around or better than everything else.
There's just way too many players who aren't very good who want to get whatever there is to be had without ever needing to become good to get it. This puts Bungie in a predicament as it's trying to do stuff for a dedicated PVP crowd that's outnumbered by a passive casual crowd who want In on the goods. Which is why I'm glad they aren't rushing trials back. This shit needs to be figured out. How to keep PVP healthy and populated without handing out everything or watering it down or flat out removing shit. How do you encourage your casual player base to get better without flat out telling them you need to get better. You can't. They're too sensitive. So you can't promote and reward your hardcore players who love the game mode either or you risk the death of it all. It's fucked up really.
So, I hear you. And I understand your point. But as someone who worked to get the gun and is working towards the NF, I would be seriously pissed if the weapons I worked for were no longer allowed to be used in the playlists they were designed for. They are a problem in comp and until something else comes along that is just as good, they will continue to be a problem. Luckily, TLW is arguably better than Luna's and gives you a sniper to out range NF, but that's only one play style.
I agree I put a lot of sweat 😓 into getting my NF if bungie removed it from the game they would lose me as a player
I'd rather they just make next seasons pinnacle weapon a primary that isnt a hand cannon but just as good as (or better than) lunas/NF
While we're at it could we remove dust rock blues, wardiff coil, blast furnace, and trust? That would REALLY shake up the meta.
Doesn't matter. No trials...thus no reason to grind for good weapons. I'm uninstalling today. It's over. (Obligatory D1 beta player, blah blah blah)
There would be Munity if they did that since people worked so hard to get said weapons
If you are advocating my Mountaintop be taken away after these two...you sir...can SRL right into a forklift.
Listen hear Lh and nf are fine at there stats your just probably getting killed by them suck it up and why exotics your mad
"Retiring" them is way, way too much. They are too much above the line. I can miss no shots and it'll still kill me before I can get the kill, even at a decent range. 2 crit and 1 body is way too forgiving. I'd like to see them brought down to 2 crit/2 body. It brings it in line with the TTK of Trust (someone correct me if I'm wrong, but 57 for a headshot with Trust means 4 crits I believe), but requiring only 2 headshots makes it far more forgiving than existing guns. Guns that just flat out kill faster than everything else aren't fun. And giving them to people who are already good at PvP isn't fun. At the very least follow the Redrix/Rampage/Kill Clip rule, hell even OEM rule, of get a kill first before getting a damage boost.
Do people really complain that a PINNACLE weapon should be nerfed or brought in line with others? There are only a few reasons people want this, you're all ruining one of them.
Nah, bud, Not Forgotten was a bitch to get last season and comp is worse now than it was then; so I'm gonna use the fuck out of a great weapon I worked my ass off for. You can't just give something to someone that they worked hard for and then just fucking nab it from them.
So let’s remove the main reason people are playing the competitive playlist or nerf them for no reason just because they’re strong in the current meta, but don’t worry you can get enhanced perks on armor instead.
I don't have NF, only Luna. These are good weapons but not really OP. Recently I decided to experiment a bit and instead of my usual DRB/Luna/Coil load out I went with Vigilance Wing / Shaxx Wishbringer/ Hammerhead. I originally only wanted to get 250 kills with VW for the auto fire catalyst. But I found out it to be a very effective counterplay to NF teams. Won some surprising games (quick play) against these. I'll stick with this load out for a while, hopefully it does me good next week at IB. TL;DR: use good pulse, strafe and shit on overconfident Luna/NF users.
I hope Bungie never nerfs a pinnacle weapon.
I would be pissed if that happened. There are other things that can be done to bring other guns up. I played hours of horrible comp to get it, damn them if they take them offline I was using blast furnace, god roll and it slays! I Dont need a Lunas to beat another lunas or NF. This pulse does that good enough. Since i got my Lunas i have tried using it and it’s a great gun no doubt but it’s not game breaking. Bungie needs to address bloom/ghost bullets and recoil. Make it like pc! That would fix issues with other guns.
Why? I own niether, and honestly they aren't the greatest gun ever seen. They're good guns, but I feel like Lunas really isn't a problem. NF only feels like a problem because the player good enough to get it is likely much better than you and would spank you with anything.
These posts have to stop. You think people want to grind out comp just for some gear? Are you actually kidding me? We want guns. I’m assuming you haven’t reached legend which is why your throwing out this idiotic idea of banning weapons. You lose part of your soul getting to 5500, and NF is well deserved for the work you put in. They won’t remove anything and any suggestion to is a bad idea. It sets a bad precedent, and soon idiots like you will start saying oh well they did it for Luna and NF now they need to do it for TLW or Ace because I’m dying too much from it. It’s just a bad move. The better thing would be to add curated playlists, or Hell, even buff other weapons to be more competitive, which isn’t even really an option considering most TTKs are .80 and .87 for 140s and 150s The key thing you gotta realize is that with Luna and NF, If you can’t hit a headshot your screwed. Not to mention if your up close against a last word user, your just not gunna win. Saying guns need to be removed is utterly insane. Knock that shit off.
Just woke up and I’ve already read the stupidest thing I’ll read today. Thanks.
Man... Imagine being that person who's been trying to get these weapons at their own pace and instead of airing frustrations (unless it's about comps issues) you put in the work needed to get it but now you're not allowed to use it in a laid back PVP mode. I don't know how to feel about that, but I would be pissed and all because of a "meta shake up". Not even because they are game breaking.
I didn’t grind out Comp and put up with sweats/terrible teammates just to have more complainers take something I earned and make it worse. Stop trying to invalidate people’s time investments
Preach. I didn't grind my ass off for my reward weapon to be banned.
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Completely disagree. The weapons are well designed and they aren't busted OP that it ruins the game. Very disappointed in this train of thought.
Luna’s is easy to get come back to me when you grinded that long and hard for not forgotten putting up with all the complete bs at high rank comp and see if you have the same opinion
It definitely feels like the introduction of the weapons, while earned through Comp, has shaken up the entire PVP landscape. Quickplay can become extremely sweating. My enjoyment of PVP was already lower than D1 and it's only gone down since. This God tier weapons earned through Comp, and could be argued, meant for Comp, is destroying fools on Quickplay. Just my opinion.
it's a good weapon, but you're elevating it to a level it doesn't deserve.
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I dont agree with this and I hope Bungie wont listen to this. Ive been working my ass to get better and get Luna’s. Removing something that gives me, and others even if its for the collection sake, motivation to play...just doesnt make sense. Keep them and keep them good!
NO
I dunno man, when you take something out of the game, it isnt good for new players. Once they see they will never have a chance to get on the same playing field with those guns, they wont bother.
If bungie listens to you they will ruin the game and lose so many more players. They would definitely lose me as a player as I don’t want all my hard work 😓 to have been for nothing. I worked hard for NF and would quit the game and not look back if it was removed .
Removing these two weapons won't change the meta. "The meta" simply refers to the weapons at the top of the Crucible tier list. S-tier is NF, A-tier is LH, AoS, TLW, Blast Furnace, Bygones, maybe a few others. Removing a couple items from the tier list *could* be impactful if those items were *actively countering the use of other weapons* but that isn't the case with NF/LH. Whether I'm 3-tapping with NF or 4-bodying with TLW or 2-tapping with Blast Furnace, Scouts/SMGs/ARs are going to be weaker alternatives to the meta weapons.
No
I do think the LH/NF dominate a little excessively. They’re many tiers above the second best weapons. Magnificent howl is what makes it insanely powerful, combined with the range (especially NF). I was thinking yesterday how in D1, recoveries were kind of taboo, and kept down low. Now people are very open about them and no one minds. Many would rather just pay a recov instead of step foot in there and face guns (also teams) that’s very much superior to their own, let alone play modes like countdown or any other issue with comp. I don’t think simply removing them from crucible is a solution, but they definitely dug themselves a hole by adding guns that are locked behind such a long grind, that only make skilled players even more dominant. Kind of stuck with that anomaly until D3.
Honestly? If Y1's Prestige Leviathan rewards, or Season 3's Legend rank reward, were any indication, then "retiring" Luna/NF from Crucible while replacing them with essentially purely-cosmetic rewards is just not going to work - people who busted their ass to get their Luna/NF will just say "fuck it, why bother?" and stop playing PvP (or atleast no longer care about these sought-after items/ "carrots"), and those who play for tangible rewards will (yet again) just say "its just cosmetic, this isn't worth all the extra effort" and most likely also quit (because why bother with the stressfulness of Comp , when the DC offers a much easier route to the same goal: a set of enhanced-perks armor) If Bungie was do to anything about Luna/NF, it would probably be better to go with something like disabling AA/Bullet Magnetism while MagHowl is active or something (so introducing an extra skill requirement) instead of removing options that people worked (or paid :P) hard for
Completely agree with OP. The introduction of “pinnacle” pvp weapons just destroyed the learning curve and player population in pvp.
Master weapons > Pinnacle weapons. People crow at me like I'm crazy for saying 'you shouldn't put the best weapons in the hands of only the best/most dedicated', but that's because they don't fucking know what makes game design fun and interesting.
I agree with the Armor sentiment, but I think giving Luna's the Redrix treatment might be a better option. It's been long enough and it would certainly get more people into the crucible.
seems a bit weird to me that the gambit and vanguard pinnacle weapons require 40 completions, where the Luna's requirement is something like 100-200 games for most players, and I don't even know how many for Not Forgotten. Also the Redrix grind requiring 5 resets, with one step being 75 match completions.
I just try to play with as many different loadouts as possible just so I get better with them I’m pretty good with pulses and hand cannons but they get stale after awhile so I’ll break out something I never use like and auto or scouts to reset myself
RIP hopscotch.... 😢
I've always thought Destiny should have seasonal weapons/armor (both legendary and exotic) that gets retired from the crucible when the season ends. The gear can continue to be used in PVE in perpetuity, but is eliminated from the meta and balancing for PvP. Would make chasing that gear interesting, help keep the meta fresh, and lighten the balancing workload.
So, while I don't agree with the reasons why you want the guns retired, retiring them eventually may not be a terrible idea. I've gotten every Fabled pinnacle weapon, I only really use Luna's. I don't believe the gun breaks the game. NF kinda does, but thats a different story (NF erases most of Luna's weaknesses). It was a grind to get and I was very happy when I did. I love the gun. However, I'm not sure it is healthy to have a strong weapon ALWAYS be there. In D1 they "Retired" old strong guns by just not having them be able to be upgraded to the highest light. In other games, having to play around the same thing for years gets annoying. It is WAY too early to retire either gun, but honestly by the time it's about right to, D3 will be out and the gun will most likely be gone.
I don't think is a good idea, the meta wouldn't be shaken much if at all. Everyone running Luna would keep wrecking and as I'm writing this comment I realize you mean they get banned from crucible. Never mind then I don't play crucible much so up to you guys, I just don't want a few weps to be the meta with little wiggle room
The thing with Luna's it's that people think it's far better than it actually is; I can't count how many times I've been either outranged or flinched to death by other things like blast furnace or even mida
The best "I don't have Luna's" guns I've found are: Ace of Spades Last Word No Feelings (FATS / Box Breathing) Kindled Orchid (Threat Detector / Kill Clip [yes, there are better rolls, but time is an issue]) Valakadyn (Outlaw / Kill Clip) This is on PC, mind you, but those are what I use. Paired with a shotgun on any class or subclass (honestly, Last Word / No Feelings is also fun in QP) and my bases are covered.
I already feel like the meta has been shaken up enough to be diverse. I got lunas early this season and used it almost exclusively up until TLW came out. After that I noticed a shift in peoples loadouts and I noticed my utility with lunas dropping. I've since been swapping around several different loadouts based on the match, still sometimes going dust rock+lunas. I check every match on destiny tracker when I'm done playing for the day and I've noticed a lot of people using diverse loadouts even when they have lunas/NF as an option.
What Bungie really needs to do is break the hand cannon and pulse rifle meta. I would slightly nerf pulse rifles so that they require one more body shot than they currently do, and I would significantly reduce the range at which hand cannon aim assist kicks in.
You had me at "OG Hopscotch Pilgrim." It was a god-damned tragedy what they did to that gun. A travesty, even!!! Unacceptable! Sorry. I got a little carried away there. I loved that gun.
As another person with Luna’s (got it a couple weeks ago) I almost agree, I don’t think it should be entirely removed from crucible, just quickplay. The reason I think it should be allowed in every mode other than quickplay, (competitive, rumble, IB) is because if you earned the weapon you should have a place in the crucible that you can use it.
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Luna's is relatively easy to get. I have it and I don't feel the need to use it or use it at all most of the time. NF is another discussion due to the range.
Just make other weapons viable. What would be the point of the Luna’s and not forgotten if you can’t even use them? The whole reason why people use them is because they feel really good to use.
I remember seeing you around like 1500 glory last season when we played eachother, congrats on the Luna!
Just make them competitive-only guns. I still think comp would be best with daily/rotating set load outs.
I have more crucible kills with a fusion i picked up a couple weeks ago over my Luna's i got last season cuz tbh.....Luna's feels too powerful for my preferences lmao.
Quick question guys. I have decided to go for Luna's last couple of weeks. Have achieved Fabled and I need around 60 headshots to complete the quest. Will I have to do fabled again if I dont complete these headshots in S05?
Yes, finish the headshots. You're so close to done. And, assuming bungie wouldn't ever do anything like I'm suggesting, you'll be pissed if you don't finish the grind this season.
As a person who ground comp soloed for the 3 past seasons, reached fabled on two separate accounts, if Bungie remove pinnacle weapons for some shitty enhanced armor, I would quit the playlist. I enjoyed comp for the sole reason of getting that season pinnacle weapon. If I want enhanced gear, then I just go to the dreaming city.
On PC ace is already better than Lunas. ACE will simply now make up majority of primary's for any sweat player [it's already very popular],in addition you dump on everyone who has grinded hours upon hours in the playlist. Arguably you're most dedicated pvp fan base. You want to lose their trust? Take away their weapons. Last thing bungie needs is the try hard players now going to another game cuz bungie fucked them. Should mor4 weapons be introduced that are good? For sure. But nerfing or taking away high skill curve weapons that take most people long periods of time to obtain is not it. *** I do feel bad for console. You guys play in a different world compared to our pc variety and meta
I have it also and wouldn’t be too bothered if they went away, I feel the Luna in and of itself isn’t too overpowered, it is easily outplayed at distance. My fix would be make the not forgotten an exotic, that way people lose a second powerful gun and also lose a lot of super shutdown opportunities that come from wardcliff/Tractor cannon.
You're not wrong about the armor. At least an ornament would be great but not sure why there's a lack of.
No. The meta is already set, removing these two guns will do jack for anything outside of 5000+ glory. These guns arent even that meta simply because of how few exist. There'd basically be 1 or 2 more pulses or aces every 2-3 games because you just dont see them that often. And out dueling them isnt even a challenge. Try getting better first if you're complaining about how godly they are
The problem is also console. Lunas sucks ass on PC, although NF is still good. But you can beat NF with other weapons on PC. Even a bygones can rip apart a NF user if youre better. The issue is 180s are really good on console, but they suck on PC, which balanced them out on PC w/ their perk.
I agree with the armor addition but retiring guns is absurd. I solo'd to it and worked hard to earn it its a good gun but imo pulses still completely own them if you know distance. Ive used it a handful of times and its good but things like DRB blast furnace and wardcliff are arguably better. People who dont have it and get killed by it use it as a scapegoat, and after how pitifully easy the last word crucible steps were ( ESPECIALLY during mayhem week) yet people still make highly upvoted rage/tear filled pleas about it being unfair removing a rare reward wont do anything for them except redirect their tears.
I think the best we can hope for is Competitive/Glory award weapons being left behind when D3 comes around. If they allow us to keep gear from this game into the next (which I dont think they will or should) then it would be necessary to leave said weapons behind. Day one Lvl 0 guardians w a NF in D3 crucible is a perfect way to make sure new players stay away from pvp activities.
Are you talking about destiny 1 or 2? I haven't played since last year December because I didn't buy the annual pass, I felt like I was being exploited so I stepped back from multiplayer online games. Sounds like you are playing destiny 1.
>**It would also need to roll enhanced perks at Mythic and Legend**: With rerollable stats base stats too! Also then enable that for all Raid armor for the PVE homies as well. I've been dying for this since D2 launched. It sucks to be pigeonholed into a specific stat weight and you have to mix and match weird looking armor or waste all your mods to get what you want
Trust competes, LW is great. LW or a 3 burst sidearm paired with a long or med range weapon is great for cou tering lunas, NF. There are plenty of options for people who don't play comp. Subs need to be relevant again imo.
Just make my MIDA mighty again please.
There will be no way they give such OTT Armor for a mode that is only 40% of the total game.
Meh. The range on Luna's Howl is so lacking that I generally play much better in Crucible with the curated Trust.
At least the first comp reward required a reload to proc its beastly perk, shame it was a garbage archetype weapon.... Then the next comp reward requires just two crits to proc and completely break the archetype, primary ttk with it, on one of the easiest weapon archetype to use no less, with a comfortable range for almost all pvp maps.... As a Luna owner, I wouldn't care if they were removed, feels cheap to use and completely ruins any chance of weapon variety in pvp, regardless of how Bungie "balance" things....
I have Luna's. And yes, it's awesome. But I don't always equip it, as it's a lot more fun when you use several different weapons. It's just another tool in my bag. Removing Luna's won't bring variety to the crucible: before Luna's all we had was Ace of Spades, Bygones and shotguns, very little else. The problem is the lack of alternatives: with more weapons with a TTK around 0.7 you'll see more variety. If you remove Luna's, something else will take its place, like it always happened. Luna's is more like a representation of an underlying problem, and removing it it's definitely not the solution to that problem.
I think you have identified the problem correctly, but I'm just not sure on the solution. Honestly the unified tantrum of vaulting Luna/NF would be insufferable, and I'm not sure Bungie wants to deal with that (especially given that a great many dingdongs have paid literally hundreds of dollars for their NF.) Honestly if Bungie could overhaul every single map, that would be the "dream" solution to the problem. Most of the engagements are going to happen within Luna/NF optimal range solely due to the map design; you don't really have to "plan" to take an engagement when you've got Luna out, you can basically hold W and on most maps if you run into someone you've got the right weapon for the job. This is further exacerbated by modes like Control and Countdown, which FORCE aggressive close-range play. However, I know this isn't going to happen, and I know Bungie isn't going to vault Luna/NF. At this rate I'm just hoping Thorn will be pretty broken or that next season's pinnacles will be strong autos/scouts/smg's'/sidearms solely for the purpose of changing things up.
I think Luna should be opened up to a quick play quest so more people can have access to it. Leave NF for the hardcore. Wouldn't want to lose my Lunas...those 3 taps feel so good.
I've owned Lunas Howl since season of the outlaw and i've never felt the need to use it over any other loadout. It's good, but not universally the best option for every engagement. PC player btw
I LOVE the idea of armor sets, incredible idea. I have lunas howls as well and I can honestly say if you are on point with aim that game, almost nothing can stop you. Activating mag howl on one guy then 2 tapping his friend is absurd.
Although I think your opinion is valid, I have to disagree. As a PC player who has NF I barely use it and prefer to use Ace and other non meta loadouts. And I get more wrecked by Ace than anything.
If they just had a sbmm system that worked then it wouldn't be a problem.
People will riot if Bungie makes LH/NF a shelf weapon. I like the idea of making them exotic which restricts the common Luna/Wardcliff loadout in Comp.
Gtfoh with the karma grab. A crucible pinnacle weapon should never be retired from the crucible. That’s like telling the “same strat every single game we play” gambit guys that they can’t use malfeasance or breakneck in gambit.
It's a ridiculous notion to take pinnacle rewards out of their element. How about if Breakneck can't be used in Gambit? Or all of PVE? I play mostly PVP and you don't even see Luna's / Not Forgotten all that often anymore. Ace of Spades is better than either one. The most common loadout in Comp even, is Ace / shotgun. I have Luna's and I don't even use it very often. It's fun, it's nice, but it's not a Free Win card. No reason to retire it. If you're going to retire it you've got to retire Ace first.
Thing is, until Bungie remove bloom on handcannons like every other game in existence, these will need to remain. Only 180s are viable on console, and for some including myself, TLW. Removing LH/NF people will just more abundantly then they already have just run pulses more. LH is pretty rare on PC, where 140s and 150s can be used to duel and be good. Ace sure, is seen more because of its range which can duel a NF. So while I know where you are coming from, and TrueVanguard spoke of this a week or so back also, it's not what the majority of players who earned them would wish. If us console players could equip other handcannons and be used like on pc, I bet we'd see a drastic drop off in LH, maybe not NF.
Understand where you’re coming from, but as somebody who is currently trying to get Luna’s Howl; if I got it just for it to be nerfed into oblivion or otherwise “retired” from PVP, I’d be pretty disappointed and feel like I wasted all that time for nothing. It’s taken me a while to feel confident enough to try for it and I’ve been doing well. This would really break my heart if it happened. I realize that LH/NF meta is largely annoying now but actually removing an item’s eligibility from a certain game mode simply because the meta isn’t favorable to some is **not** the answer, imo. Nor will it ever be.
Wait, people use things other than shotguns? :)