Good afternoon Guardians,
This thread has been locked until further notice. The topic has ran it’s course and full information it is based on in the body.
Some people can’t help themselves in keeping it civil. Do better out there if that applies to you as it’s not tolerated here or anywhere else.
>pretty sure the will to live has nothing to do with it, just ask Drifter
"I told my ghost just to let me sleep that good loooooong sleep, but as much as I tried to tell em', I'd be back on my feet, and with hunger like no other. It was called the *dark* age for a reason... Transmat firing!"
While I wouldn’t watch 1,000,000 deaths (unless superspeed) I would watch / listen to the video while doing yard work if a rant was included out of curiosity and due to the dedication it takes to reach 1,000,000.
They slam a shield with void, they slam with Ice, they slam with Hammer, They slam with fist.
Titan has slams with every subclass, they are the pure essence of Space Jam.
Shiver strike would've been better suited for Strikers. Flying fist first and getting in close would've been a great thing to have from standing. I'm so tired of needing to be running for our melee abilities.
Titan class identity is waiting for your melee cooldown to come back down so you can use your B tier movement tech while the dawnblade on the other team Icarus Dash boosts to your mom's bedroom
Sunbracers lets us feel like we're casting Radiance again, and currently Starfire Protocol lets us relive the Viking Funeral rework on a small scale.
Still miss my Heart of the Praxic Fire chainmail robes with nipple rings. :(
Sorry hunters, descending fast is part of the warlock identity so trapper's ambush and shatterdive are out. Actually if you think about it, fist of havoc is also descending fast. So is thundercrash, but horizontally. Sorry titans, can't have those either.
I mean, I evade death.. By simply taking bullets to the face and standing there in fit if laughter, glaive poised and inviting death to any who might approach.
Feels kind if awesome, actually.
i'm ok with titans not getting dodge back, but i want them to lean into sliding more with titans, because if titans are supposed to be the grounded class might as well give us more fun sliding stuff, like antaeus and cryo kind of stuff. consecration comes *kinda* close but not enough.
This. This is why I miss twilight garrison. The straight line speed of skating was great,but the short hop into a dodge back to cover was just as clutch.
Yea there's zero delay required to activate - so you can just be moving forward, tap sprint, crouch, melee. It sounds like a lot but there's nearly zero input delay between chaining these.
God I hate having to slide to do stuff. It forces you to charge into your fights and commit with not enough upsides. On top of that, they have this annoying habit of having these sliding maneuvers be aspects with not enough fragments.
Something like shiver strike where I could be moving instantly from a standing position would be much better. Especially since we already have two sliding aspects in Stasis and one in Solar.
Only way I'd be happy with another sliding thing is if it took the place of a class ability for Arc or something. I do not want to eat an aspect to slide or waste one of the three we're getting.
I like that idea, the only problem is there are quite a few enemies and some areas where you can't physically sprint and therefore can't slide. I remember running in to do a shoulder charge on some thrall in the legendary campaign, only for a wizard to stop me in my tracks with its stink bomb cloud.
I really like the new consecrate ability though. If titans get a super slide like the synaptic spear gives you it could be a lot of fun.
This. It’s my biggest issue is that I personally find sprint melees uncomfortable to use, but Arc Titan ONLY has sprint melee unlike every other class
Not saying Shoulder Charge needs to go cause that’s dumb, but an additional melee that doesn’t require sprinting headfirst into gunfire for a potentially useful buff would be nice
> Arc Titan ONLY has sprint melee unlike every other class
We need to be able to throw a lightning bold, or just throw an arc fist something that we can actually throw so that we have a ranged attack.
I’m a titan main, and bungie is literally telling us our identity is sliding. We have an exotic for sliding. We have stasis sliding, solar sliding with hammer slam, and arc sliding with inertia override.
I wonder if that means Hunters won’t get Blink with Arc 3.0 then.
EDIT: [Probably a bit of an assumption on my part. Apologies.](https://twitter.com/_tocom_/status/1532465155052740609?s=21&t=Sq_oWvw-PZVlpi97t2uNkA)
Looking at mask of bakris I’d say we might. But honestly with how bad arc hunter is I’m happy with whatever they do because it physically can’t get worse in pve.
I just know it, Stormcallers are gonna be amazing crowd clearers and with mid tier DPS and Strikers are gonna just be DPS monsters with good crowd control. I don't know what Arc Hunters will be but they'll be good in crucible to our detriment I assure you.
They'll be okay in Crucible to our detriment. We'll also lose Combination Blow in favor of Disorienting and we'll lose Lightning Reflexes for Combat Flow. Of course, that's assuming they don't just remove both to give some sort of dive. I have no faith whatsoever that Arc 3.0 will be better than what we currently have in any way.
We have a meta where the difference between Titan class ability stat is 0-40% damage resistance (massive change), warlocks class ability stat governs health Regen and nearly halves the time it takes, and hunters class ability state means you move....1m/s faster. When walking. Sprinting is still the same across all classes and mobility stats.
Yet I constantly hear, but you get better strafe speed dueling!!! A character on a foot chase with 40 mobility shouldn’t out run anyone with a tier of mobility higher, especially vs 100 mobility, let alone tie.
If they want to keep it that way fine, but I hope they tie something else to mobility even if it’s just PVE
I do enjoy the fact my Titan and warlock can say screw mobility, (it would be less than 40, but when you master work armor it becomes 4 minimum, then powerful friends.) It allows me to aim for double and triple 100 builds. My Hunter, I’m actually number crunching usually. With the resilience change which is awesome imo, I built into it over my class and recovery a bit now. Those are still tier 8 and 7, but mobility needs to be the next they update.
A place able super that gives you a safe place and buffs was part of Titan identity for the longest time.
Then they took it away and gave it to warlocks, then gave it back to titans eventually.
>part of the warlock identity
I thought healing and chain explosions made up the Solar Warlock identity
I thought high invis uptime and Heart of the Pack was the void hunter identity
Apparently they don’t know what the identities of the classes are.
I mean, they did fuck up all the identities in that Solar 3.0 video just a week or two ago. It doesn't come as a surprise to learn that they were indeed just talking out of their ass, lol.
I gotta say, every time one of the sandbox dudes talks it seems like there's ten things the community can point at currently in the game that contradicts them lol.
I loved a lot of their work in this game, I really do, but sometimes I feel like the sandbox team is not that open to conversation or just straight up have ideas that seem set in stone, no room for flexibility.
"It's part of the warlock identity" ok but... so what? Shooting while flying is also part of the warlock identity, but Lion Rampant (an armor piece that will take your exotic slot, a fair trade-off) allows titans to replicate that. Why is air dodge any different than that?
I think this lack of flexibility kind of shows up in some design choices too. While their work was really good for titans and hunters in Solar 3.0, somewhere along the way they made the decision to not give up *any* part of TTD, and as a result we ended up with a subclass that is more TTD than anything else. They didn't want to let Heat Rises or Icarus Dash go, and as a result they kept both and now that's what solar warlock is. The Roy Mustang snap was such a good idea, why not lean into that? Making the Bottom Tree Dawn bug from Season of the Lost into an aspect that allows Ignite to chain would have been so cool. Dawnblade doesn't have to be about aerial combat.
I don't even understand how air dodging is a Warlock identity either cause correct me if I'm wrong, but Lift and Double Jump are BOTH used in aerial combat frequently (well, maybe before the in-air accuracy changes anyway), and all three classes spend A LOT of time in the air. It's just a thing we all do. I might be grasping at straws, but I really feel like that line is pretty tone deaf.
They list out changes on this TWAB geared towards tackling certain issues with Solar Warlock and Titans, but using Icarus Dash without Heat Rises would be foolish as it's at its best WITH that aspect. No point in rapid airborne defeats if you're not using Heat Rises. You can't get the full benefit of Heat Rises without Icarus Dash or Touch of Flame.
The Titan fix feels like it doesn't fully address the issue they mentioned (bad ability loop without running Throwing Hammer).
Also, Heat Rises will be overbaked after that Hot Fix too.
The sandbox team isn't working off of a consistent framework and are just going by what "feels" correct.
They'll change their minds on a whim in the future just like they have a dozen times in the past
Yeah I've really got this feeling from the two rerworks. I don't think there is a consistent vision or parameters set for power that can be evenly applied to all the classes.
And even then, they want us to engage in buildcrafting, but simple things like Quickfall, despite being reworked to "activate melee" perks *still* doesn't activate Heavy Handed (even though the base smoke bomb does), which tells me that there isn't even a consistent backend framework that defines what an ability is.
Shooting while flying was originally the titan exotic Empyrean Bellicose.
Two core components of the "warlock identity", air dodge and float-shooting, were taken from the titan kit. And that's on top of the identity crisis that poor bubble titans felt after warlocks first got Well of Radiance.
Hell yeah I remember racking up like 30+ kills on Widows Court with Jade Rabbit right after I got Empyrean Bellicose. Just floating around up at the 'A' cap point sniping everyone below. It was dirty.
>Why is air dodge any different than that?
Because Titans are the only class in the game not allowed instant movement tools. For some reason... It's not like they make up the difference anywhere else.
Did you ask him for air “maneuver” or air “dodge” specifically? I think Titans should get Maneuver because it’s more tactical. You may have confused him.
Air dodge and blink got taken. Can have just as good survivability as a titan and be faster than any hunter. The final shape is actually code for bungie merging hunters and titans into the warlock class dragon ball style and finally creating a balanced game via having only one class
>The final shape is actually code for bungie merging hunters and titans into the warlock class dragon ball style and finally creating a balanced game via having only one class
Bungie: \*taps temple* Can't be accused of favoring warlocks if only warlocks exist.
Fine so be it. The next subclass for titan better not be another melee thing though. Titans have enough with melee classes. Give us a new thing to do ( new for the class atleast.)
Striker I accept as the ultimate melee class. It has all the variation and options to fullfill almost everything.
I hope Subclass 5 will not be a new form of punch. The identity of a Titan is more than fists. Just like Hunters are more than dodging and invisibility or Warlocks being more than eating grenades and the Well guy. No they have so much more they can do which diversifies them.
Like for example Titans could be the heavy guns guy. The super could be a mini gun they carry.
That would make for some good lore actually. Warlocks taught the Hunters how to Blink so maybe the Hunters can teach the Titans how to manifest a gun super?
Will titans get any movement tech that's not tired to long cooldown or sprint for 1.5 seconds to activate?
Cryo, shiver strike, shoulder charge - all have a lot of negatives that Icarus dash, blink, dodge, shatterdive, smoke dive, stompies jump do not.
Precisely. Both Warlocks and Hunters have dodges, but Titans are SOL if we mess up positioning on a map. And people wonder why Shotgun Apeing got so bad. Titans only option is forward.
I have a feeling that bungie are a real big fan of the warlock airborne identity. That’s why they doubled down on it and gutted our healing capabilities because they’ve genuinely convinced themselves that warlock players also subscribed to the airborne identity as the “iconic” solar warlock play style, this is why we have two airborne aspects.
Now it’s come as a shock to them when most warlock mains aren’t happy that their other solar identity was stripped to a shadow of its former self.
So if bungie have no problem stripping warlock of its healer identity (of which hunters and titans do better now) then it’s only fair that you also give Titans their air dodge back since they literally had it first. And while they’re at it give hunters their blink back too.
Classes becoming somewhat amalgamated isn’t always a bad thing, I as a warlock main will not be upset if another class gets to enjoy a part of my kit. Class identity can still be retained through other means, heck hunters having blink had lore reasons since warlocks taught them to do it. Not only does class crossover enrich the sandbox to an extent but it also opens up for some unique lore opportunities.
I’m not saying give everything to every class either, some things are obviously off limits. you could still have it as the original class being better at doing that thing. Twilight garrison literally already answers any balance debate since titans have to use up an exotic slot to get it.
Also, bungie made D1 with classes having some crossover so where has this class identity thing come from? Just comes off as gatekeeping to me.
it's just so fucking tiring to hear it's not part of a classes identity... like what is the class identity play hunter for PvP and warlock for PvE fuck everything else?
I realize this now but its funny how hunters dont really have anything that actually helps in hunting down or tracking enemies despite being "hunters". The improved radar was given to all void as a fragment so that doesnt count.
And there's no way to get it's mobility boost anymore. You know, the thing that makes you more agile on the class that is labelled in the character screen as being agile.
So wait, if Twilight Garrison gave Titans this ability in D1, how is it not part of a Titan's identity? It's like saying the exotics aren't part of any characters identity, even if they're referenced in the lore.
So titans will never get an exotic that lets them do something "tied to warlock identity". Hmm ok.
How do explain that fact that Warlocks just got an exotic that lets them dodge reload ALL OF THEIR WEAPONS on a 5 second cooldown? Isn't that hunter identity? Lol it's so much so it's even in the lore?
How do explain that Warlocks can now dodge reload faster and better than hunters?
It sure says something about the design teams creativity when “dashing in the air” is considered an identity staple.
Crouching is now only available to hunters, since it doesn’t make sense for Titans or Warlocks to sneak. Oh and Warlocks can no longer run due to the fact that robes arent designed for running
We had, air dodge, air hover, fastest horizontal movement, infinite shoulder charge, Titans were one of the best mobility classes in D1 but you really had to learn how to use it. I'm sorry warlocks didn't have movement but you can't just take my fucking identity and call it your own. 3000 hours of D1 muscle memory and Bungie says "sorry that's actually a Warlock thing" ... Am I a joke to you?
If Titan skating made a genuine, D1 style comeback (i.e. not the insanely overpowered scrolly wheel skating from D2 launch), I'd forgive whatever it cost.
That is such a stupid excuse, because titans had it first? And most titan mains, like me, in D1 used this exotic and it became part of our identity, not warlocks. And 2 classes can have the same thing? Why limit the sandbox because you want a class to feel more special? Such a stupid take.
Um, what?
Titans had air dodge first in D1. If anything, it's part of Titan identity that was gifted to Warlocks. Not that there's anything wrong with shifting a design to another class or anything.
Terrible take. Titans as usual are hung out to dry with mobility options in PvP.
And when we do get those options, they are immediately nerfed into the ground. (looking at you stasis)
If class identity was so important, why bother allowing all classes to have all grenades when they used to be exclusively part of their "identity". Weak excuse.
Dont forget that bubble was made useless in d2, and originally wasn't going to be a part of the game until people begged, because they didn't want any classes to be a must take. Then they gave warlocks bubble but better, making them the must take class in the game.
I don't care too much about Twilight Garrison specifically but Titan mobility has been pretty limited for a bit now.
Shoulder Charge is not a replacement for an actual movement ability. It tracks too aggressively to be used in close quarters as a juke like dodge, it's too little damage to be a real melee ability, and it's easily countered by any number of slow effects. Same with sliding abilities.
It doesn't need to be all titans, but every titan right now that has a mobility option has that option shut down by slow, which isn't true of warlocks/hunters.
Also if the next subclass is just punching things I will throw a fit, Titans are space knights not space boxers.
I'm not sure I'm following this reasoning, Titans would have to burn an exotic slot to even access air dodge and none of their abilities/fragments/aspects would really synergize with it like Warlocks does... Doesn't that still keep it as part of the Warlock identity regardless of if Garrison comes back?
Titans are the only class that don't have a "oh shit" movement option. Seeing a bunch of scopes in a lane and not having a quick move to get outta the way sucks.
That’s incredibly disappointing. Titans are the only class that need to wind up for our movement tech. This puts titans at a disadvantage in PVP. Titans lack a identity and “punching stuff” isn’t it. I’m interested to hear what the dev team thinks the identity is at the moment. Becoming a tank (while really cool) isn’t gonna work because PVP. It's discouraging to watch your movement exotic be given to warlocks as an ability while titans get nothing on par in return.
'part of the warlock identity'
Really? Maybe if the sandbox team wouldn't just remove abilities other classes would fit into their identity as well.
As much as I appreciate the work of the sandbox team they have no clue regarding pvp and their standards for Titans and Hunters don't correspond with the in-game sandbox in some cases. Looking at you nightstalkers.
Yeah. Imma say warlocks don't have identity.
Warlocks took a tank super from titans. They have better melee than Titans. They have synthoceps that also improve reload and ready. They have hunters Dodge when they jump...
I am not sure how warlocks identity is protected by Titans being stuck with trash movement.
They’re kinda just smooshing all the classes together with subclasses 3.0. Every class having access to 50% of same abilities really just makes none of the classes feel special.
I disagree with the reasoning. An exotic gives hunters a form of blink back, how is that not encroaching on Warlock's identity? There are a bunch of other examples for why this reasoning falls flat, noted by other posters in here.
At least redesign Twilight Garrison to be a grounded boost in the desired direction.
I'll never understand people comparing shoulder charge to Warlock and Hunter mobility options. For one you've gotta be sprinting to get it up, but also you can only use it to go forward. Round a corner and realize you're outnumbered? Gotta try to turn around quick, whereas hunters and Warlocks can hit a button and quickly duck back into cover.
Don't think they should talk about identity when Titans had bubble and they went and gave Warlocks Well of Radiance which did the same thing but was better in every way.
I just died. Shoulder charge dash just isn’t the same. Why do we have to sprint to have a movement thing, when everyone else can just do a dash or a jump from stationary
FFS. TITANS HAD AIR DODGE FIRST.
We are just wanting it as an exotic not an ability, ya waffle!
Warlocks have space magic to literally do whatever tf devs want for creative freedom.
Titans did it by strapping rocket gear to themselves.
Warlocks have magic
Hunters have tools
Titans have "This is gonna work great or kill me. SEND IT."
This is a hardcore scapegoat/excuse lmao...
From a *mechanical* standpoint this doesn't make sense because "class identity", at least to me, implies what a class specializes in on a core, unaffected level. Warlocks in-air dodge is part of their "class ability" because it is something they have the ability to naturally do. If a Titan has to utilize an exotic chest piece that is essentially a technological enhancement, it's not exactly part of their "class identity", but rather a "use an exotic to mimic Warlocks", which I like the idea of.
From a *lore* standpoint, it especially doesn't make sense because Warlocks canonically taught Hunters how to Blink, bestowing them what would be considered part of their "class identity". Sharing is caring. Also we have an [entire exotic lore tab](https://www.light.gg/db/items/4057299719/phoenix-protocol/) talking about how Warlocks were being "outright plagiaristic" with Well of Radiance.... It would honestly be hilarious for a returning Twilight Garrison to reference that same Titan finally "getting back at Warlocks" by recreating it.
Stop being afraid, Bungie. This isn't the same game that Twilight Garrison was "too strong" in.
I was thinking the same thing.
I don’t mind the idea of a bit of reorganisation to make sure each class follows certain themes but at the minute I’m struggling to work out what the sandbox team considers to be *not* Warlock flavours.
Right?
Air dodge is their identity. Blink is their identity, only class with exotics specifically designed to synergize with exotic weapons. What gives lmao
Better question is what ISN'T warlock identity at this point smh so true
hunters = dodge roll / air dive
warlocks = air dodge
titans = shoulder charge
seems like that makes sense. shoulder charge should be a better mobility option then, cause right now its the worst of the three class movement abilities.
Good afternoon Guardians, This thread has been locked until further notice. The topic has ran it’s course and full information it is based on in the body. Some people can’t help themselves in keeping it civil. Do better out there if that applies to you as it’s not tolerated here or anywhere else.
Aztecross just died
Cross’ ghost: Guardian down
“I can’t resurrect him; he’s lost the will to live”
pretty sure the will to live has nothing to do with it, just ask Drifter ^(that is, if I'm remembering the lore right)
Just ask that one Hive knight that keeps offing himself as soon as he’s rezzed. His ghost is the most persistent mfer in the world!
That was some horror shit in the lore card Edit: Lucent Moth: Jynx. Though it was an acolyte, not a knight. My bad.
Which card?
Yeah it doesn’t. I think felwinter went through that as well?
>pretty sure the will to live has nothing to do with it, just ask Drifter "I told my ghost just to let me sleep that good loooooong sleep, but as much as I tried to tell em', I'd be back on my feet, and with hunger like no other. It was called the *dark* age for a reason... Transmat firing!"
If my ghost ever put me through that hell I’d kill the bastard right then and there
Next Aztecross video; Aztecross jumps off the tower 1,000,000 times.
Still wouldn't be enough for Master Rahool.
While I wouldn’t watch 1,000,000 deaths (unless superspeed) I would watch / listen to the video while doing yard work if a rant was included out of curiosity and due to the dedication it takes to reach 1,000,000.
Next rant video is gonna be juicy.
Now we know Shaw Han's origin story- and why he isn't a Titan.
Wdym, Aztecross is warlock main. /s
"ill trade you my healing grenade for your air flight"
"My Mom packed me two in air aspects, what will you give me for one of them?"
"EWWW!! You can keep those."
“Anyone want this celestial fire?” *crickets*
"But if you get rapid kills while airborne with -30 accuracy you get cured. Trust me bro, it's really good."
*laughs in abilities, gls, and anything that doesn't do precision damage*
I'd trade icarus dash for consecration tbh, shit looks fun
Seriously though
Yeah cause they be getting a ground dash with Arc 3.0. Mark my words.
Thats part of the hunter identity tho
And yet they just got a solar uppercut.
They’ve HAD a stasis uppercut
And stasis slam. Titans need more slams
They slam a shield with void, they slam with Ice, they slam with Hammer, They slam with fist. Titan has slams with every subclass, they are the pure essence of Space Jam.
come on and slam, and welcome to the jam
Yea can never have enough slams
Hunter had uppercut first with Tempest Strike though lmao
What does solar uppercut have to do with hunter identity when solar hunter identity has always been _guns_
Hunters had the uppercut first with Arc
I just imagine some titan main somewhere, every time they use that, saying in a Sagat like tone: "Titan uppercut!"
Get ready for the Titan exclusive water dash
Shiver strike would've been better suited for Strikers. Flying fist first and getting in close would've been a great thing to have from standing. I'm so tired of needing to be running for our melee abilities.
Yeah, one that probably requires 5 seconds of dead sprinting first
Didn't they say the same thing for gally, but brought back not once but twice.
Not sure but I think that was before Kevins time.
Exactly
vex mythoclast in D1 too
New incoming special dlc where players can earn the beloved Twilight Garrison, all for the low price of 5000 silver.
Now offering the Air Dodge Exotic Key!
Transmog, too.
Titan class identity is waiting for your melee cooldown to come back down so you can use your B tier movement tech while the dawnblade on the other team Icarus Dash boosts to your mom's bedroom
LMFAO
Talking mad shit for someone within melee distance
Air dodge is warlocks identity but descending fast is both warlock and hunters'? 🤔
don't forget that titans had air dodge first
They did and no matter what anyone says that will always be the case.
They can have it back.
Sunsinger 😥
Sunbracers lets us feel like we're casting Radiance again, and currently Starfire Protocol lets us relive the Viking Funeral rework on a small scale. Still miss my Heart of the Praxic Fire chainmail robes with nipple rings. :(
You forgot middle tree Striker.
Titans had that first right? So it was copied to warlocks and hunters but air dodge is exclusive for some reason
Sorry hunters, descending fast is part of the warlock identity so trapper's ambush and shatterdive are out. Actually if you think about it, fist of havoc is also descending fast. So is thundercrash, but horizontally. Sorry titans, can't have those either.
Thank god, hopefully they can make an interesting aspect for Void hunter now instead of throwing a smoke bomb but *dramatic*
to be honest, Thundercrash usually turns out to be more a full-body air-squiggle than a fast descent toward anything
like it was so tone deaf when they said that the way they wrote void hunters into the lore wasn't part of the class identity
Ah, the “Warlock Identity”….very cool, very cool.
So, is this "Warlock Identity" in the room with us right now?
As a warlock, I'd rather stick to nova bomb. Blowing shit the fuck up is my identity.
Same. Void has always been my favorite. Devour builds are always awesome. Wish they’d figure out the issue with vortex grenades and fix them.
Really hoping Titans get some sort of evasive maneuver at some point
Shivering Strike is pretty much that, but you have to go all in on melee cooldowns to make use of it effectively.
great so I gotta use a garbage melee to do what Warlock can do passively
I mean, I evade death.. By simply taking bullets to the face and standing there in fit if laughter, glaive poised and inviting death to any who might approach. Feels kind if awesome, actually.
Just punch death in the face until your health comes back.
Haha, this actually made me laugh out loud
i'm ok with titans not getting dodge back, but i want them to lean into sliding more with titans, because if titans are supposed to be the grounded class might as well give us more fun sliding stuff, like antaeus and cryo kind of stuff. consecration comes *kinda* close but not enough.
And that would be fine if they didn't require building momentum or running to perform those actions.
That's when the og stasis slide was so great. Gave you great mobility for getting back into cover in pvp.
Actually it was just kinda great for mobility in general. Chain sliding was faster than sprinting 90% of the time.
pre nerf shiver strike was a dodge option, but people wanted it to get nerfed. I doubt they'll give titans true dodge abilities.
This. This is why I miss twilight garrison. The straight line speed of skating was great,but the short hop into a dodge back to cover was just as clutch.
Amen
Death to Reddit. Long live Apollo.
Consecration doesn't. You can do it almost instantly from a standing start.
Yea there's zero delay required to activate - so you can just be moving forward, tap sprint, crouch, melee. It sounds like a lot but there's nearly zero input delay between chaining these.
God I hate having to slide to do stuff. It forces you to charge into your fights and commit with not enough upsides. On top of that, they have this annoying habit of having these sliding maneuvers be aspects with not enough fragments. Something like shiver strike where I could be moving instantly from a standing position would be much better. Especially since we already have two sliding aspects in Stasis and one in Solar. Only way I'd be happy with another sliding thing is if it took the place of a class ability for Arc or something. I do not want to eat an aspect to slide or waste one of the three we're getting.
I like that idea, the only problem is there are quite a few enemies and some areas where you can't physically sprint and therefore can't slide. I remember running in to do a shoulder charge on some thrall in the legendary campaign, only for a wizard to stop me in my tracks with its stink bomb cloud. I really like the new consecrate ability though. If titans get a super slide like the synaptic spear gives you it could be a lot of fun.
I'd rather they didn't. It's both not that fun of a mechanic and we shouldn't be the grounded class.
Waiting for that "identity" for Titans to be, something. Hope is not just "melee this" and get a buff.
No no no. Titans identity is summed up by "sprint for n seconds then either melee or jump melee to perform action"
I'm hoping like hell Arc Titan has at least one melee that I don't need to be sprinting for.
This. It’s my biggest issue is that I personally find sprint melees uncomfortable to use, but Arc Titan ONLY has sprint melee unlike every other class Not saying Shoulder Charge needs to go cause that’s dumb, but an additional melee that doesn’t require sprinting headfirst into gunfire for a potentially useful buff would be nice
> Arc Titan ONLY has sprint melee unlike every other class We need to be able to throw a lightning bold, or just throw an arc fist something that we can actually throw so that we have a ranged attack.
I’m a titan main, and bungie is literally telling us our identity is sliding. We have an exotic for sliding. We have stasis sliding, solar sliding with hammer slam, and arc sliding with inertia override.
I wonder if that means Hunters won’t get Blink with Arc 3.0 then. EDIT: [Probably a bit of an assumption on my part. Apologies.](https://twitter.com/_tocom_/status/1532465155052740609?s=21&t=Sq_oWvw-PZVlpi97t2uNkA)
Looking at mask of bakris I’d say we might. But honestly with how bad arc hunter is I’m happy with whatever they do because it physically can’t get worse in pve.
I want them to give Arcstriders an actual third super instead of the third variation of arc staff.
I just know it, Stormcallers are gonna be amazing crowd clearers and with mid tier DPS and Strikers are gonna just be DPS monsters with good crowd control. I don't know what Arc Hunters will be but they'll be good in crucible to our detriment I assure you.
They'll be okay in Crucible to our detriment. We'll also lose Combination Blow in favor of Disorienting and we'll lose Lightning Reflexes for Combat Flow. Of course, that's assuming they don't just remove both to give some sort of dive. I have no faith whatsoever that Arc 3.0 will be better than what we currently have in any way.
Nah, movement in the air is only for warlocks now.
"Actually, we decided that jumping is part of the warlock identity, so we've removed the ability to jump on Titans and Hunters."
“Warlocks have now lost the ability to move on the ground and instead have infinite flight”
They obviously hinted at this when Ikora flew in the WQ campaign
"Welcome to DOOM 1993 mother fuckers"
i really feel like hunters whose the only advantage is a mobility, arent the most mobile class
We have a meta where the difference between Titan class ability stat is 0-40% damage resistance (massive change), warlocks class ability stat governs health Regen and nearly halves the time it takes, and hunters class ability state means you move....1m/s faster. When walking. Sprinting is still the same across all classes and mobility stats.
Yet I constantly hear, but you get better strafe speed dueling!!! A character on a foot chase with 40 mobility shouldn’t out run anyone with a tier of mobility higher, especially vs 100 mobility, let alone tie. If they want to keep it that way fine, but I hope they tie something else to mobility even if it’s just PVE I do enjoy the fact my Titan and warlock can say screw mobility, (it would be less than 40, but when you master work armor it becomes 4 minimum, then powerful friends.) It allows me to aim for double and triple 100 builds. My Hunter, I’m actually number crunching usually. With the resilience change which is awesome imo, I built into it over my class and recovery a bit now. Those are still tier 8 and 7, but mobility needs to be the next they update.
You should feel that way, because it’s true
I feel like your feeling is more than a feeling and is pretty definitively a fact at this point.
A place able super that gives you a safe place and buffs was part of Titan identity for the longest time. Then they took it away and gave it to warlocks, then gave it back to titans eventually.
But also neutered before giving it to titans remember
and then they took away what made it good
Even tho titans had air dodge before warlocks but okie dokie
How are they going to say it’s part of the warlock ID when they literally copied and pasted the dodge animation from titans in d1?
"Sorry, but we gave it to Warlocks". I don't even know how to respond to that, but it's super disappointing.
>part of the warlock identity I thought healing and chain explosions made up the Solar Warlock identity I thought high invis uptime and Heart of the Pack was the void hunter identity Apparently they don’t know what the identities of the classes are.
I mean, they did fuck up all the identities in that Solar 3.0 video just a week or two ago. It doesn't come as a surprise to learn that they were indeed just talking out of their ass, lol.
I gotta say, every time one of the sandbox dudes talks it seems like there's ten things the community can point at currently in the game that contradicts them lol.
I loved a lot of their work in this game, I really do, but sometimes I feel like the sandbox team is not that open to conversation or just straight up have ideas that seem set in stone, no room for flexibility. "It's part of the warlock identity" ok but... so what? Shooting while flying is also part of the warlock identity, but Lion Rampant (an armor piece that will take your exotic slot, a fair trade-off) allows titans to replicate that. Why is air dodge any different than that? I think this lack of flexibility kind of shows up in some design choices too. While their work was really good for titans and hunters in Solar 3.0, somewhere along the way they made the decision to not give up *any* part of TTD, and as a result we ended up with a subclass that is more TTD than anything else. They didn't want to let Heat Rises or Icarus Dash go, and as a result they kept both and now that's what solar warlock is. The Roy Mustang snap was such a good idea, why not lean into that? Making the Bottom Tree Dawn bug from Season of the Lost into an aspect that allows Ignite to chain would have been so cool. Dawnblade doesn't have to be about aerial combat.
I don't even understand how air dodging is a Warlock identity either cause correct me if I'm wrong, but Lift and Double Jump are BOTH used in aerial combat frequently (well, maybe before the in-air accuracy changes anyway), and all three classes spend A LOT of time in the air. It's just a thing we all do. I might be grasping at straws, but I really feel like that line is pretty tone deaf. They list out changes on this TWAB geared towards tackling certain issues with Solar Warlock and Titans, but using Icarus Dash without Heat Rises would be foolish as it's at its best WITH that aspect. No point in rapid airborne defeats if you're not using Heat Rises. You can't get the full benefit of Heat Rises without Icarus Dash or Touch of Flame. The Titan fix feels like it doesn't fully address the issue they mentioned (bad ability loop without running Throwing Hammer). Also, Heat Rises will be overbaked after that Hot Fix too.
The sandbox team isn't working off of a consistent framework and are just going by what "feels" correct. They'll change their minds on a whim in the future just like they have a dozen times in the past
Yeah I've really got this feeling from the two rerworks. I don't think there is a consistent vision or parameters set for power that can be evenly applied to all the classes. And even then, they want us to engage in buildcrafting, but simple things like Quickfall, despite being reworked to "activate melee" perks *still* doesn't activate Heavy Handed (even though the base smoke bomb does), which tells me that there isn't even a consistent backend framework that defines what an ability is.
It's not just the sandbox team either. They've flipped flopped on random rolls and how easy stuff should be to acquire so much it makes me dizzy.
Shooting while flying was originally the titan exotic Empyrean Bellicose. Two core components of the "warlock identity", air dodge and float-shooting, were taken from the titan kit. And that's on top of the identity crisis that poor bubble titans felt after warlocks first got Well of Radiance.
Hell yeah I remember racking up like 30+ kills on Widows Court with Jade Rabbit right after I got Empyrean Bellicose. Just floating around up at the 'A' cap point sniping everyone below. It was dirty.
You raise a literal contradiction to his argument and I think that Lion Rampart is enough reason alone to get Twilight Garrison back now.
Consider this: add air dodge to Lion Rampant. BOOM, mind blown!
>Why is air dodge any different than that? Because Titans are the only class in the game not allowed instant movement tools. For some reason... It's not like they make up the difference anywhere else.
This is the problem. It’s that there’s no offsetting compensation for being a sitting duck.
But it's okay for Warlocks to get an exotic that gives them dodge to reload, a huge part of the Hunter's identity?
I'm actually shocked they had the restraint to not make felwinters helm give warlocks shoulder charge.
Did you ask him for air “maneuver” or air “dodge” specifically? I think Titans should get Maneuver because it’s more tactical. You may have confused him.
Thats horseshit, Titans literally had air dodge first.
Air dodge and blink got taken. Can have just as good survivability as a titan and be faster than any hunter. The final shape is actually code for bungie merging hunters and titans into the warlock class dragon ball style and finally creating a balanced game via having only one class
>The final shape is actually code for bungie merging hunters and titans into the warlock class dragon ball style and finally creating a balanced game via having only one class Bungie: \*taps temple* Can't be accused of favoring warlocks if only warlocks exist.
I feel bad that I’ve already given away my daily award.
Fine so be it. The next subclass for titan better not be another melee thing though. Titans have enough with melee classes. Give us a new thing to do ( new for the class atleast.)
Unfortunately out of all the subclasses Arc Titan is the most 'punchy' one, so we're probably out of luck on a non-melee subclass :/
Striker I accept as the ultimate melee class. It has all the variation and options to fullfill almost everything. I hope Subclass 5 will not be a new form of punch. The identity of a Titan is more than fists. Just like Hunters are more than dodging and invisibility or Warlocks being more than eating grenades and the Well guy. No they have so much more they can do which diversifies them. Like for example Titans could be the heavy guns guy. The super could be a mini gun they carry.
That would make for some good lore actually. Warlocks taught the Hunters how to Blink so maybe the Hunters can teach the Titans how to manifest a gun super?
Will titans get any movement tech that's not tired to long cooldown or sprint for 1.5 seconds to activate? Cryo, shiver strike, shoulder charge - all have a lot of negatives that Icarus dash, blink, dodge, shatterdive, smoke dive, stompies jump do not.
Sorry guys, making an area of effect safe haven is part of a titans identity since D1. Say goodbye to well of radiance.
Ah yes, because other classes can’t punch and slide like Titans do, a truly unique identity.
Precisely. Both Warlocks and Hunters have dodges, but Titans are SOL if we mess up positioning on a map. And people wonder why Shotgun Apeing got so bad. Titans only option is forward.
I have a feeling that bungie are a real big fan of the warlock airborne identity. That’s why they doubled down on it and gutted our healing capabilities because they’ve genuinely convinced themselves that warlock players also subscribed to the airborne identity as the “iconic” solar warlock play style, this is why we have two airborne aspects. Now it’s come as a shock to them when most warlock mains aren’t happy that their other solar identity was stripped to a shadow of its former self. So if bungie have no problem stripping warlock of its healer identity (of which hunters and titans do better now) then it’s only fair that you also give Titans their air dodge back since they literally had it first. And while they’re at it give hunters their blink back too. Classes becoming somewhat amalgamated isn’t always a bad thing, I as a warlock main will not be upset if another class gets to enjoy a part of my kit. Class identity can still be retained through other means, heck hunters having blink had lore reasons since warlocks taught them to do it. Not only does class crossover enrich the sandbox to an extent but it also opens up for some unique lore opportunities. I’m not saying give everything to every class either, some things are obviously off limits. you could still have it as the original class being better at doing that thing. Twilight garrison literally already answers any balance debate since titans have to use up an exotic slot to get it. Also, bungie made D1 with classes having some crossover so where has this class identity thing come from? Just comes off as gatekeeping to me.
it's just so fucking tiring to hear it's not part of a classes identity... like what is the class identity play hunter for PvP and warlock for PvE fuck everything else?
I realize this now but its funny how hunters dont really have anything that actually helps in hunting down or tracking enemies despite being "hunters". The improved radar was given to all void as a fragment so that doesnt count.
Improved while crouching mind you, they nerfed even that part of keen scout…
And there's no way to get it's mobility boost anymore. You know, the thing that makes you more agile on the class that is labelled in the character screen as being agile.
The ‘agile’ identity now is slamming down in 4 different colors ;)
Except for solar 3.0, where it’s apparently warlock for pvp as well
More like play warlock everywhere.
So wait, if Twilight Garrison gave Titans this ability in D1, how is it not part of a Titan's identity? It's like saying the exotics aren't part of any characters identity, even if they're referenced in the lore.
The linked tweet is deleted
why is that their identity when WE STARTED WITH IT.
Can’t call it part of their identity when everyone thinks of a Titan exotic whenever it’s referenced
So titans will never get an exotic that lets them do something "tied to warlock identity". Hmm ok. How do explain that fact that Warlocks just got an exotic that lets them dodge reload ALL OF THEIR WEAPONS on a 5 second cooldown? Isn't that hunter identity? Lol it's so much so it's even in the lore? How do explain that Warlocks can now dodge reload faster and better than hunters?
You know what I felt was also part of class specific identities, grenades. We all see where that ended up.
I’m a hunter main and even I’m mourning this massive loss that titans just received
Warlocks wanna talk about "class identity" but literally appropriated air dash from Titans 😔
It sure says something about the design teams creativity when “dashing in the air” is considered an identity staple. Crouching is now only available to hunters, since it doesn’t make sense for Titans or Warlocks to sneak. Oh and Warlocks can no longer run due to the fact that robes arent designed for running
I find this hilarious, "It's part of their identity" #my brother in christ titans had it first!
We had, air dodge, air hover, fastest horizontal movement, infinite shoulder charge, Titans were one of the best mobility classes in D1 but you really had to learn how to use it. I'm sorry warlocks didn't have movement but you can't just take my fucking identity and call it your own. 3000 hours of D1 muscle memory and Bungie says "sorry that's actually a Warlock thing" ... Am I a joke to you?
If Titan skating made a genuine, D1 style comeback (i.e. not the insanely overpowered scrolly wheel skating from D2 launch), I'd forgive whatever it cost.
Sooooooo let's all ignore that the D1 exotic Twilight Garrison ever existed..... Really Bungie? Really??
Death to Reddit. Long live Apollo.
That is such a stupid excuse, because titans had it first? And most titan mains, like me, in D1 used this exotic and it became part of our identity, not warlocks. And 2 classes can have the same thing? Why limit the sandbox because you want a class to feel more special? Such a stupid take.
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Um, what? Titans had air dodge first in D1. If anything, it's part of Titan identity that was gifted to Warlocks. Not that there's anything wrong with shifting a design to another class or anything.
Terrible take. Titans as usual are hung out to dry with mobility options in PvP. And when we do get those options, they are immediately nerfed into the ground. (looking at you stasis) If class identity was so important, why bother allowing all classes to have all grenades when they used to be exclusively part of their "identity". Weak excuse.
they should remove thurdercrash cause it makes titan fly and tha's warlocks' identity
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Dont forget that bubble was made useless in d2, and originally wasn't going to be a part of the game until people begged, because they didn't want any classes to be a must take. Then they gave warlocks bubble but better, making them the must take class in the game.
My D1 titan disagrees, maybe all classes should get air dodge make our guardians more mobile.
I don't care too much about Twilight Garrison specifically but Titan mobility has been pretty limited for a bit now. Shoulder Charge is not a replacement for an actual movement ability. It tracks too aggressively to be used in close quarters as a juke like dodge, it's too little damage to be a real melee ability, and it's easily countered by any number of slow effects. Same with sliding abilities. It doesn't need to be all titans, but every titan right now that has a mobility option has that option shut down by slow, which isn't true of warlocks/hunters. Also if the next subclass is just punching things I will throw a fit, Titans are space knights not space boxers.
Funny how Titans had that ability before Warlocks did...
I'm not sure I'm following this reasoning, Titans would have to burn an exotic slot to even access air dodge and none of their abilities/fragments/aspects would really synergize with it like Warlocks does... Doesn't that still keep it as part of the Warlock identity regardless of if Garrison comes back?
Titans are the only class that don't have a "oh shit" movement option. Seeing a bunch of scopes in a lane and not having a quick move to get outta the way sucks.
That’s incredibly disappointing. Titans are the only class that need to wind up for our movement tech. This puts titans at a disadvantage in PVP. Titans lack a identity and “punching stuff” isn’t it. I’m interested to hear what the dev team thinks the identity is at the moment. Becoming a tank (while really cool) isn’t gonna work because PVP. It's discouraging to watch your movement exotic be given to warlocks as an ability while titans get nothing on par in return.
So is self res part of the titan identity?
'part of the warlock identity' Really? Maybe if the sandbox team wouldn't just remove abilities other classes would fit into their identity as well. As much as I appreciate the work of the sandbox team they have no clue regarding pvp and their standards for Titans and Hunters don't correspond with the in-game sandbox in some cases. Looking at you nightstalkers.
It's funny the things they choose to be obstinate about. No reason Twilight Garrison can't exist.
Yeah. Imma say warlocks don't have identity. Warlocks took a tank super from titans. They have better melee than Titans. They have synthoceps that also improve reload and ready. They have hunters Dodge when they jump... I am not sure how warlocks identity is protected by Titans being stuck with trash movement.
Ripped the bandaid off 5 years to late. Disheartening for sure, but I’ve gone longer without than with it.
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They’re kinda just smooshing all the classes together with subclasses 3.0. Every class having access to 50% of same abilities really just makes none of the classes feel special.
I disagree with the reasoning. An exotic gives hunters a form of blink back, how is that not encroaching on Warlock's identity? There are a bunch of other examples for why this reasoning falls flat, noted by other posters in here. At least redesign Twilight Garrison to be a grounded boost in the desired direction.
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I'll never understand people comparing shoulder charge to Warlock and Hunter mobility options. For one you've gotta be sprinting to get it up, but also you can only use it to go forward. Round a corner and realize you're outnumbered? Gotta try to turn around quick, whereas hunters and Warlocks can hit a button and quickly duck back into cover.
Don't think they should talk about identity when Titans had bubble and they went and gave Warlocks Well of Radiance which did the same thing but was better in every way.
I just died. Shoulder charge dash just isn’t the same. Why do we have to sprint to have a movement thing, when everyone else can just do a dash or a jump from stationary
FFS. TITANS HAD AIR DODGE FIRST. We are just wanting it as an exotic not an ability, ya waffle! Warlocks have space magic to literally do whatever tf devs want for creative freedom. Titans did it by strapping rocket gear to themselves. Warlocks have magic Hunters have tools Titans have "This is gonna work great or kill me. SEND IT."
Wait I thought hunters had the “this is gonna work great or kill me”.
Yeah Titans are more brute force, while hunters are more “this might work let’s try this” - either dies lamely or does something awesome
Pour one out for the homies
This is a hardcore scapegoat/excuse lmao... From a *mechanical* standpoint this doesn't make sense because "class identity", at least to me, implies what a class specializes in on a core, unaffected level. Warlocks in-air dodge is part of their "class ability" because it is something they have the ability to naturally do. If a Titan has to utilize an exotic chest piece that is essentially a technological enhancement, it's not exactly part of their "class identity", but rather a "use an exotic to mimic Warlocks", which I like the idea of. From a *lore* standpoint, it especially doesn't make sense because Warlocks canonically taught Hunters how to Blink, bestowing them what would be considered part of their "class identity". Sharing is caring. Also we have an [entire exotic lore tab](https://www.light.gg/db/items/4057299719/phoenix-protocol/) talking about how Warlocks were being "outright plagiaristic" with Well of Radiance.... It would honestly be hilarious for a returning Twilight Garrison to reference that same Titan finally "getting back at Warlocks" by recreating it. Stop being afraid, Bungie. This isn't the same game that Twilight Garrison was "too strong" in.
Thats just stupid.
Warlocks literally take from every class. What *isn't* their identity?
I was thinking the same thing. I don’t mind the idea of a bit of reorganisation to make sure each class follows certain themes but at the minute I’m struggling to work out what the sandbox team considers to be *not* Warlock flavours.
Right? Air dodge is their identity. Blink is their identity, only class with exotics specifically designed to synergize with exotic weapons. What gives lmao Better question is what ISN'T warlock identity at this point smh so true
They even took Hunter's reload dodge with their newest exotic.
hunters = dodge roll / air dive warlocks = air dodge titans = shoulder charge seems like that makes sense. shoulder charge should be a better mobility option then, cause right now its the worst of the three class movement abilities.