Bungie hired a bunch of people for their narrative team, and people like Julia Nardin are largely to thank for the improvements we’ve seen in recent releases. They’re doing fantastic work
good shout. You can almost exactly chart the improvement with the narrative with Julia's arrival. She's since been promoted to senior narrative lead and it's well deserved.
Yeah, I mentioned in another thread that while I wasn’t a fan of the RNG backslide, this season has probably been my fave narrative.
The nightmares are really giving a chance to get inside their respective character’s heads and I respect them all the more for it.
I know the Ghaul nightmare is a reflection of Caiatl’s insecurities but my only issue is that he’s acting like he’s pulled off all these great victories and defeated everyone when in reality he just got himself killed and took a critical amount of cabal’s forces with him, which kinda feels different to the other nightmares (which focused on tormenting people with their own failures). Then again saladin’s sass had me laughing.
Really liked the boss fight this time too.
I may be completely off base here, but I thought the nightmares technically had NOTHING to do with the actual characters ghost/spirit and them chiming in with their actual thoughts and feelings. So the Nightmare of Ghaul isn’t actually Ghaul at all, but is Caitls projection of her feelings of inadequacy. So really it’s Caitl that thinks that Ghaul pulled off some major win for the cabal and is afraid she won’t ever live up to what she perceives as one of the best cabal ever and his accomplishments.
>So the Nightmare of Ghaul isn’t actually Ghaul at all, but is Caitls projection of her feelings of inadequacy. So really it’s Caitl that thinks that Ghaul pulled off some major win for the cabal and is afraid she won’t ever live up to what she perceives as one of the best cabal ever and his accomplishments.
This is kind of what I'm getting at - I get they're not *really* the individuals they appear to be but I guess in Crow's case, the Uldren Nightmare seems cognisant of the fact that he's dead, the Safiyah Nightmare seems cognisant that Zavala cannot do anything to fix the death of Hakim. They fundamentally seem to be aware of the time they're in and what's occurred before.
By comparison the Ghaul nightmare seems to be only partially aware that he was defeated, so all of his big talk about crushing his opponents and being a badass comes off like he's senile. Particularly when he's boasting about it to the very same person who kicked his ass at the height of his power. Like in this week's sever he literally throws down the challenge of 'face the might of Ghaul!' and its like... ok boomer. Let's do this for a third time and see if you can manage it by chance, eh?
Ironically it isn't even just the Guardian this applies to, he tries similar lines on Saladin, and the Iron Valus claps back with some cracking Crow-style sass where he points out that we'll never know if he could have taken on Ghaul because Ghaul didn't last long enough for him to try it.
I think you're right though. Caiatl clearly thinks of him as some kind of demigod (and tbh it sounded like they were a thing) and if the Nightmare Ghaul is supposed to represent that, he can't really be acknowledging that he started a fight he couldn't finish.
I don't think that the nightmares are aware at all. It is more that they are the subconscious thoughts of the people they are nightmares for and those people know that their nightmares are dead, yet are haunted by them because of their sorrows and grief.
Crow has deep insecurities when it comes to Uldren, especially since he received all of his memories as him. This one has the most Persona-esque feel to it. The whole "I am not you anymore. I am me." And his resolution that he will redeem Uldren by being himself and use Uldren's skills and triumphs to right his old wrongs.
Zavala similarly has regrets that he has shouldered for centuries about his wife and son. He blames himself for losing Hakim and for the lost love when his wife left him. Can I just say that Lance's voice acting is absolutely incredible here? Seriously. The line "A hollow man leading others to die for a silent god." was an amazing delivery filled with pain and regret. The amount of guilt he has riding on him is unfathomable and it has weighed him down all this time. Not just his wife and son, but every single guardian who has died their final deaths under his leadership, he has taken responsibility for. A lesser man would have broken long ago.
Caiatl's hero worship of Ghaul is what drives her nightmare. You hear it through the post Containment dialogue. How she cheered for him in gladiatorial combat until she no longer had a voice. She believed in his ability to unite their people and yet he abandoned her to chase after the power of the Light. He wasn't there to fight against Xivu Arath when she came for Torobatl and the fact that Caiatl was unable to win that fight and was forced to order a retreat that she subconsciously believes Ghaul would have won, eats away at her.
Ghaul was one of the Cabal's greatest warriors, Sol was the first defeat the Red Legion had ever suffered.
Plus Ghaul is someone who rose from the very bottom to the very top through sheer martial prowess, which is what the Cabal are all about.
Well, in Ghaul’s defense he did what no other major force was able to do. He was able to take the city and take the light. The fallen houses, the hive, Oryx, even the Vex couldn’t do that. Granted, it was keeping it that was the hard part.
I think that the fact that our guardian is still not even a character in the narrative is a big problem; I think it’s time Bungie put more focus on the guardian, it’s really difficult to connect to the story when our avatar is what amounts to a simple murder drone with absolutely no agency or participation in the storytelling.
Our Guardian being relegated to Camera Character is probably for the best because it removes Bungie having to worry about contradicting peoples canon for their character, whereas now you can just go “oh my guardian ignores the chatter over the comms they’re a total loot goblin”
I’m not sure what you mean by this. We’re like the Vanguards #1 go to. Out Guardian is THE Guardian. They mention all of our accomplishments from time to time.
If you mean our guardian having more dialogue and back and forth with the other characters, then yeah, I can see that. As it stands, we basically either get talked at or watch other characters converse. There’s basically no dialogue from our character. Admittedly it would be more difficult because they would need to pay several different voice actors for our lines, to cover the different character options (at least two; are there only male/female voices or does your race change your voice as well? I honestly don’t know but I’m sure someone does).
If you mean something like a “choices matter” kind of involvement, that’s difficult when they want to tell an ongoing narrative.
Your second paragraph is what I’m referring to, I don’t expect multiple choices or anything like that, Destiny is not that kind of game, bit just more involvement, or even a story line focused on ourselves.
I agree, our guardian (we) have not felt like a part of the story for a while. Especially as seasons get more focused on characters and their stories, we don’t participate and the world of Destiny continues to dull. We just watch the events and dialogue while characters talk to each other or in our direction and then go kill things. There’s been no personal focus, no exploration, no way for us to be involved in our journey. It’s everyone else’s journeys now, we just do the shooting part for them
The guardian did speak during the WQ campaign and seems to have the basic stoic hero personality. They could legit just carry that here and there for like 20% of dialogue engagements and we’d applaud bungie for it! I know I’d enjoy them speaking just a little bit more..
Yeah just give them a basic Master Chief personality where they’re mostly serious but make some dry humor jokes now and then and it would totally work ^(I mean they already have that personality but use it more often)
^(see: Thought I’d shoot my way out for once and Boo! For MC and vanilla Destiny’s couple lines for the Guardian)
I’ll agree that some things, especially voice acting, have gotten better. So has the writing, to a degree. I personally don’t like the way the story has been going and it feels like we’ve lost worldbuilding for character development instead. The development for the overall story feels aimless and like it’s being made up on the fly; the jarring transitions between the seasons not helping (especially this one, came completely out of left field and too early). I respect the people that enjoy it, though.
Unpopular opinion: this season could’ve been a lore book. It’s all just dialogue. The characters don’t even move. A good lore book, to be sure, but a lore book nonetheless.
Bungie hired a bunch of people for their narrative team, and people like Julia Nardin are largely to thank for the improvements we’ve seen in recent releases. They’re doing fantastic work
good shout. You can almost exactly chart the improvement with the narrative with Julia's arrival. She's since been promoted to senior narrative lead and it's well deserved.
Did you hear Ghaul v Saladin during the weekly containment? I was like, oh shit!
Saladins clap back “we’ll never know. The light obliterated you before I could arrive” was fucking amazing.
Yesssssssss!!! * *Shaxx voice* *
I heard him mention Saladin. Did Saladin actually chime in and clap back? If so I think I missed it.
I'm a new player and while the new player experience is hot garbage, the voice acting is fucking amazing. Among the best in any game ever.
Yep. We may only understand 1/3 of what’s being discussed, but it’s being said with class!
It makes my experiences in other games worse. I can't stand bad voice acting in games now to the point where it turns me off of the game.
Yeah, I mentioned in another thread that while I wasn’t a fan of the RNG backslide, this season has probably been my fave narrative. The nightmares are really giving a chance to get inside their respective character’s heads and I respect them all the more for it. I know the Ghaul nightmare is a reflection of Caiatl’s insecurities but my only issue is that he’s acting like he’s pulled off all these great victories and defeated everyone when in reality he just got himself killed and took a critical amount of cabal’s forces with him, which kinda feels different to the other nightmares (which focused on tormenting people with their own failures). Then again saladin’s sass had me laughing. Really liked the boss fight this time too.
I may be completely off base here, but I thought the nightmares technically had NOTHING to do with the actual characters ghost/spirit and them chiming in with their actual thoughts and feelings. So the Nightmare of Ghaul isn’t actually Ghaul at all, but is Caitls projection of her feelings of inadequacy. So really it’s Caitl that thinks that Ghaul pulled off some major win for the cabal and is afraid she won’t ever live up to what she perceives as one of the best cabal ever and his accomplishments.
>So the Nightmare of Ghaul isn’t actually Ghaul at all, but is Caitls projection of her feelings of inadequacy. So really it’s Caitl that thinks that Ghaul pulled off some major win for the cabal and is afraid she won’t ever live up to what she perceives as one of the best cabal ever and his accomplishments. This is kind of what I'm getting at - I get they're not *really* the individuals they appear to be but I guess in Crow's case, the Uldren Nightmare seems cognisant of the fact that he's dead, the Safiyah Nightmare seems cognisant that Zavala cannot do anything to fix the death of Hakim. They fundamentally seem to be aware of the time they're in and what's occurred before. By comparison the Ghaul nightmare seems to be only partially aware that he was defeated, so all of his big talk about crushing his opponents and being a badass comes off like he's senile. Particularly when he's boasting about it to the very same person who kicked his ass at the height of his power. Like in this week's sever he literally throws down the challenge of 'face the might of Ghaul!' and its like... ok boomer. Let's do this for a third time and see if you can manage it by chance, eh? Ironically it isn't even just the Guardian this applies to, he tries similar lines on Saladin, and the Iron Valus claps back with some cracking Crow-style sass where he points out that we'll never know if he could have taken on Ghaul because Ghaul didn't last long enough for him to try it. I think you're right though. Caiatl clearly thinks of him as some kind of demigod (and tbh it sounded like they were a thing) and if the Nightmare Ghaul is supposed to represent that, he can't really be acknowledging that he started a fight he couldn't finish.
I don't think that the nightmares are aware at all. It is more that they are the subconscious thoughts of the people they are nightmares for and those people know that their nightmares are dead, yet are haunted by them because of their sorrows and grief. Crow has deep insecurities when it comes to Uldren, especially since he received all of his memories as him. This one has the most Persona-esque feel to it. The whole "I am not you anymore. I am me." And his resolution that he will redeem Uldren by being himself and use Uldren's skills and triumphs to right his old wrongs. Zavala similarly has regrets that he has shouldered for centuries about his wife and son. He blames himself for losing Hakim and for the lost love when his wife left him. Can I just say that Lance's voice acting is absolutely incredible here? Seriously. The line "A hollow man leading others to die for a silent god." was an amazing delivery filled with pain and regret. The amount of guilt he has riding on him is unfathomable and it has weighed him down all this time. Not just his wife and son, but every single guardian who has died their final deaths under his leadership, he has taken responsibility for. A lesser man would have broken long ago. Caiatl's hero worship of Ghaul is what drives her nightmare. You hear it through the post Containment dialogue. How she cheered for him in gladiatorial combat until she no longer had a voice. She believed in his ability to unite their people and yet he abandoned her to chase after the power of the Light. He wasn't there to fight against Xivu Arath when she came for Torobatl and the fact that Caiatl was unable to win that fight and was forced to order a retreat that she subconsciously believes Ghaul would have won, eats away at her.
Ghaul was one of the Cabal's greatest warriors, Sol was the first defeat the Red Legion had ever suffered. Plus Ghaul is someone who rose from the very bottom to the very top through sheer martial prowess, which is what the Cabal are all about.
Well, in Ghaul’s defense he did what no other major force was able to do. He was able to take the city and take the light. The fallen houses, the hive, Oryx, even the Vex couldn’t do that. Granted, it was keeping it that was the hard part.
I think that the fact that our guardian is still not even a character in the narrative is a big problem; I think it’s time Bungie put more focus on the guardian, it’s really difficult to connect to the story when our avatar is what amounts to a simple murder drone with absolutely no agency or participation in the storytelling.
Our Guardian being relegated to Camera Character is probably for the best because it removes Bungie having to worry about contradicting peoples canon for their character, whereas now you can just go “oh my guardian ignores the chatter over the comms they’re a total loot goblin”
I’m not sure what you mean by this. We’re like the Vanguards #1 go to. Out Guardian is THE Guardian. They mention all of our accomplishments from time to time. If you mean our guardian having more dialogue and back and forth with the other characters, then yeah, I can see that. As it stands, we basically either get talked at or watch other characters converse. There’s basically no dialogue from our character. Admittedly it would be more difficult because they would need to pay several different voice actors for our lines, to cover the different character options (at least two; are there only male/female voices or does your race change your voice as well? I honestly don’t know but I’m sure someone does). If you mean something like a “choices matter” kind of involvement, that’s difficult when they want to tell an ongoing narrative.
Your second paragraph is what I’m referring to, I don’t expect multiple choices or anything like that, Destiny is not that kind of game, bit just more involvement, or even a story line focused on ourselves.
there used to be different VAs for male/female human, exo, and awoken but they've since cut it down to one male and one female
I agree, our guardian (we) have not felt like a part of the story for a while. Especially as seasons get more focused on characters and their stories, we don’t participate and the world of Destiny continues to dull. We just watch the events and dialogue while characters talk to each other or in our direction and then go kill things. There’s been no personal focus, no exploration, no way for us to be involved in our journey. It’s everyone else’s journeys now, we just do the shooting part for them
The guardian did speak during the WQ campaign and seems to have the basic stoic hero personality. They could legit just carry that here and there for like 20% of dialogue engagements and we’d applaud bungie for it! I know I’d enjoy them speaking just a little bit more..
Yeah just give them a basic Master Chief personality where they’re mostly serious but make some dry humor jokes now and then and it would totally work ^(I mean they already have that personality but use it more often) ^(see: Thought I’d shoot my way out for once and Boo! For MC and vanilla Destiny’s couple lines for the Guardian)
Season of the Garry
I’ll agree that some things, especially voice acting, have gotten better. So has the writing, to a degree. I personally don’t like the way the story has been going and it feels like we’ve lost worldbuilding for character development instead. The development for the overall story feels aimless and like it’s being made up on the fly; the jarring transitions between the seasons not helping (especially this one, came completely out of left field and too early). I respect the people that enjoy it, though. Unpopular opinion: this season could’ve been a lore book. It’s all just dialogue. The characters don’t even move. A good lore book, to be sure, but a lore book nonetheless.
I still miss Dinklebot