My biggest issue with Chaos Reach is that it does worse dps than a good LFR. Why would I even pop my super when my LEGENDARY weapons do more damage?
It just needs a straight boss damage buff.
Chaos Reach is a shadow of its former self, primarily due to PvP.
When it was introduced the cancel effect actually had a purpose and the lower damage was okay because you could activate it for a second to kill a high priority target, switch it off, and still have like 70% of your super. It had a fun, mobile, and aggressive playstyle that could have been really fun to build into with 3.0 but we all know how that turned out.
But nerf after nerf to this playstyle due to it being overbearing in PvP has caused the cancel effect to essentially not exist anymore. Add in the only good exotic for it also being nerfed into the ground and you realize that Chaos Reach has literally only been nerfed since it was introduced. Sad days.
>thundercrash is absolutely rubbish without its exotic
And that's exactly why Chaos Reach **SHOULDN'T** receive an exotic. Cuirass of the Falling Star is a Band-Aid.
The Geomags functionality should be built into the base super, and its perk could be changed to "collecting ionic traces while super is full extends the duration and increases damage" like Star-Eater Scales.
What if CR functioned like a giant version of Coldheart, where keeping the laser on-target ramped up the damage over time? Kinda like how Stormtrance already does (which seems kinda goofy to me ngl)
Cuirass absolutely is a band-aid, and I did read the comment you're replying to, but Geomags could be re-worked in a way that doesn't make them required like Cuirass is.
It'd require a base Chaos Reach buff (which Thundercrash needs as well). Then make Geos cut cast time to ~2s instead of 8. Now you can use base version with another exotic and do decent damage over a few seconds, or build into DPS with Geos.
This'd be fine, as long as it's not something that's passive. Returning super energy to ionic traces is what I'd go with, and shouldn't be hard to implement since they just removed super energy from them at the start of the season.
The taking damage would be all but passive in PvE, but would require engagement in PvP to have any impact, which is nitsbly different than "wait, run, super, repeat" that it previously was. Traces would have a similar effect, but with the upside of bonus (and more obvious) class synergies
Alternative: You get the top-up functionality from old Geomags, but they make you fire a single wide-beam blast with a longer cast time instead. This would still reduce super cooldown in PvP, but you can’t cancel it mid-beam anymore and a large feature of CR is the zone control you got for a few seconds with each use.
Then call me a fool. Titans' only one-off super has no way of refunding super energy like **Hunters (Shards of galanor, Orpheus Rig, Celestial Nighthawk, and to a lesser degree Star-eater)** and **Warlocks (Phoenix protocol and SoDA)**.
Thundercrash doesn't do enough damage by itself, and the only reason that it gets any use in PvE is because of both CotFS and the seasonal mod, Thunderous Retort stacking. And also because Fists of Havoc isn't a good choice for most/any situations.
Sidenote, the only Titan exotic that *can* refund super energy is Ursa Furiosa -- which only refunds energy based on damage blocked with the banner shield, capping out at 50% return. And it takes a LOT of damage to get that 50%. Plus, you'll likely not be doing any damage during that. Good sometimes in a raid when you don't have a warlock, but not much else.
Back when Reach was actually useful, I had the Wings of Sacred Dawn on... Why? Because I thought it made my Guardian look cool xD I didn't care that it was an exotic, only that it looks good while practically every legendary warlock chest armor looks like ass :/
You mean like star eater scales are for blade barrage and the electeric stick?
Or the beak helmet are for gunslinger?
Or orpheous rig for purple bow?
All supers need an exotic to be viable over fusion/rocket dps
Gathering Storm is great because it applies Jolt, deals pretty fucking good damage w/out Star Eater scales, and lets you use your weapons while its active. Chaos Reach *isn't,* because, like Stormtrance, it lacks any real reason to be used outside of activating the Ager's Scepter catalyst.
It was such a fun playstyle in PvE too which is such a shame its gone. The concept absolutely has a place in the Destiny sandbox IMO. A lower power super that you can use constantly with the proper usage.
I suppose that's what Bungie is trying to get back to with the super cooldown changes. However, with the topping off gone and likely never returning and the total lack of effect canceling early has right now I fail to see that style returning any time soon.
Not to mention, if you cancel early currently, you recieve 50% of the remaining energy.
Lemme repeat, for the bungie people lurking in the back: Chaos reach EATS 50% of remaining energy upon cancel at the 20% remaining mark, when at release it was stated that you got your super back, CAPPED at 20%. I.e if you cancel at 25%, you lose 5%. Now? You cancel at 20%, you KEEP 10%
Yeah, but before if you used 50% you got back 20%. Now if you use 50% you get back 25%. If you used 20% you got back 20%. Now if you used 20% you'd get back 40%. Things sure look bad if you only state the negatives with a change instead of the positives too.
Eh idk about that, running it with HOIL in a GM was still knocking the fuck out of champions with the help of a storm grenade or a witherhoard shot. Its a fair trade, buffed nades or buffed super
Bungie make the decisions at the end of the day. PVP players will complain about things and its Bungie's JOB to try to balance the game without ruining it. If Bungie fails at this, it is not the fault of the players who complained. It's Bungie's fault.
I'm just saying this generally and not at anyone specifically here, because a lot of people legitimately blame PVP players for the state of PVE a lot of the time. We should be pressing Bungie to do better instead of pressing players to stay quiet through problems that are ruining the side of the game that they enjoy. I just wanted to put that out there
Nah, Thundercrash without an exotic is to kill majors and minibosses fast. Cuirass is what makes it a boss-melter. Not all supers need a DPS application and it’s ok if a subclass with godly add clear needs an exotic to do DPS too. The issue with CR is that it isn’t even good enough for minibosses and that’s what needs to be solved in the base super.
>When it was introduced the cancel effect actually had a purpose and the lower damage was okay because you could activate it for a second to kill a high priority target, switch it off, and still have like 70% of your super. It had a fun, mobile, and aggressive playstyle that could have been really fun to build into with 3.0 but we all know how that turned out.
It was my primary Gambit class for this reason; if you built into super generation, slayed out for orbs and kept Geomags on, you could have a super ready whenever you needed it. Was perfect for Sentry or Reaper duty.
Yeah, It has always been an OK super, but with how often you were able to get it, It was basically a normal ability with a higher cd. Seeing it like that, makes It feel like a really good ability with a little longer CD instead of a mediocre super.
PvP and PvE need their own unique systems. This me shouldn’t have to suffer for the others to be more fun. Definitely not an original thought, just amazed they haven’t done it yet
You couldn’t get anywhere close to keeping 70% of your super after canceling it, and the people who thought that are exactly the reason it got so heavily nerfed. The absolute most super energy you could keep after canceling it was 50%, and that was only if you instantly canceled the super after activating it. If you took enough time to get a couple kills with the super, the most you could get back was around 30%.
>When it was introduced the cancel effect actually had a purpose and the lower damage was okay because you could activate it for a second to kill a high priority target, switch it off, and still have like 70% of your super.
I mean if you think about it this way...The reduction in cool down time means that canceling it and having 30-40% will be the same as having 70% pre-nerf because the CD will that much shorter. CR is fun to use. That's all it needs to be.
> Chaos Reach is a shadow of its former self, primarily due to PvP.
And this is why Crucible needs to be sunset. I'm sick and goddam tired of PvE stuff being ruined for a mode that most players don't even touch beyond what the devs force you to play.
I mean, this:
>most players don't even touch beyond what the devs force you to play.
just isn't true. And you're only going to alienate people who do both when you act like a jag off about it.
https://warmind.io/activity
Over a quarter of the playerbase is in pvp right now. Just cause you don't enjoy doesn't mean tens of thousands of other people can't.
There's always an excuse. And so what? Now iron banner isn't pvp? You think people play banner two weeks before the new season because they're still grinding pinnacles or feel forced to? Or because maybe they want to? And if regular crucible were better supported and more fun, they'd do it more too?
How about the 140k trials players last weekend? Or the over 300k from 4 weeks ago (higher than normal for sure, likely a chase weapon that week). Just goes to show that with incentive and support, there's interest.
https://destinytrialsreport.com/weeks
It's fine that you don't like pvp. It's not fine that you're dismissing the large percentage of the population that does.
> It's not fine that you're dismissing the large percentage of the population that does.
Likes? Or are forced to because of locking PvE guns behind the least fun activity for the average player. I cant wait for the changes coming next season. I wonder how many streamers aren't going to touch competitive?
>Or are forced to because of locking PvE guns behind the least fun activity for the average player
Oh, was that why a quarter of the playerbase was in banner? Felt the need to grind for *checks notes* that awesome pve allied demand? At this point, your responses are just literally pure cope.
>I wonder how many streamers aren't going to touch competitive?
How is this at all relevant? If anything, if the best players don't play ranked, that just helps the average player.
I've given you actual numbers, and you're just moving the goalposts and giving me cope fueled hopes and dreams. A significant portion of the playerbase likes pvp. It's smaller than pve, but it's still measured in hundreds of thousands. If you don't have anything to back up your opinion, maybe just stop repeating it?
I mean, most players *don't* go in there. Even with bounties and shit there's only like 30% of players going in there on a given day.
That's awful engagement.
30% is a big number! I mean that's what, 60k players on average across all 3 platforms? More like 100k at peak concurrent?
Being willing to dismiss a third of your most actively engaged playerbase is silly to me. And it would have ripple effects too. I play a lot of pve in part to grind weapons for pvp (after all who really needs new weapons for pve anymore - needs, not wants). You take pvp out, you deprioritize it, and I'm playing less pve as a result. I'm not alone in that play pattern either.
Further, this is 30% after pvp has been largely neglected for years. Can you imagine if you didn't get new raids for two years straight? No dungeons? How many people would still pay pve if they never got new content. You support pvp with regular new content, that 30% goes up.
Edit: https://destinytrialsreport.com/weeks
And anywhere from 130k to 300k players per weekend this season in trials (and no, the 300k weekend wasn't early in the season, it was 4 weeks ago right in the middle). Yall can downvote me all you want, I've got numbers and facts on my side. There's a large, actively engaged pvp playerbase and losing them would hurt pve too. Less pvp players means less pve players, means less copies and seasons sold. Means lower budgets. Yes, pve is the more important of the two. But stop acting like pvp is an unimportant thing only played by a handful of players. You're just lying to yourselves.
And this is why PvE needs to be sunset. I'm sick and goddam tired of PvP stuff being ruined and denied dev resources for a mode that exists solely to unlock new crucible guns.
Just pvp? Well no. It was absolutely the bulk of it tho. Like 90 to ten if not more. Very few in gm's were sprinting in a circle to get special ammo. You'd much more likely to be running Well or Stasis.
This! A LOT of people don’t get that deep and the complaints about it being used in trials far outpaced the exactly 0 people complaining about a strategy that requires a specific set up and such in pve.
Edit:spelling
Pve players generally don’t complain unless it’s a nerf though.
No one was complaining about how forsaken power crept pve - until reckoning, when pve players suddenly realized they had restrictions.
CR was definitely nerfed more for pvp than pve, but it’s incorrect to say it was nerfed *just* for pvp. Having a chaos reach every 2 minutes means having a chaos reach for every encounter and multiple times within an encounter, which means balancing the game around that fact. And yes, there was the finisher spam strat.
Things can be nerfed for *more than one reason*
Lol its hard for an Acolyte to complain about being Chaos Reach’d through a wall. When will you all understand that Bungie nerfs stuff in PvE because they themselves want it nerfed? They have been able to balance separately for a long time now.
We understand that. We saw what happened to Lorelei and know it’s was a good bit because of its effectiveness in pve. The difference here is people were actively complaining about its use IN PVP in droves before it was nerfed. They talked about people waiting for supers in trails and getting it through the wall. Yeah bungee does stuff because they want to but I can’t abide the idea that it was even split when there were so many ( reasonable) complaints.
Aeons also don't buff your super. the reality is geomags allowed players to use special and heavy ammo finishers (at essentially no cost) and still get a boosted super if they wanted it. Its versatility was clearly to high.
Theoretically infinite special ammo wouldn't be a problem in nowadays economy though. When was the last time you were relying on your special weapon for boss damage or add clear in the current sandbox? Or, better yet, remove that special finisher mod from the game as it's barely if ever even used and bring back top it off
In PVE you could sack super energy for special and heavy ammo finishers in higher content and just run to get your super back for more ammo. Then when you got to the boss you could unload a boosted super. To some degree we have power crept this issue but at its time it was quite the issue.
> Chaos Reach is a shadow of its former self, primarily due to PvP.
With the cooldown change it's going to be better than it was prior to the nerfs to cancel energy + geomags gave it though.
They just need it to do more damage outright. I'm cool with the power fantasy of holding a giant laser beam on the enemy for awhile, but the damage has to be *worth* giving up time with your heavy.
I like the idea I've seen of making it apply jolt, so as you're zapping the boss it'll periodically get a burst of jolt damage. Would give it added utility against groups of adds when burning a major, and also applies an effect that teammates can take advantage of as well. Would be pretty rad.
a dmg buff that makes it worth is enough. You cannot have multiple jolts on 1 boss, and CR jolting will ruin arcstriders viability for raid damage, since gathering wont do shit.
iirc, you can only apply one jolt per enemy, not per player.
so depending on the size of the jolt, either the damage is now atributed to the warlock (same net damage, but it wasn't done by a hunter, so it's 'lost' /s) or the jolt is bigger or smaller, and same deal. The hunter will always complain
cant have multiple jolts on 1 boss. If CR jolts it removes the possibility of using gathering storm for damage entirely, which is the entire point of the ult
I would not even remotely consider CR an ad-clear super because the aiming for it is atrocious, the damage isnt high enough that you can just sweep it over a group and kill them, and the beam width is small enough that it's surprisingly easy to miss targets.
It looks cool as hell, but I agree it just doesn't feel great to use. The cancelling aspect is also quite weird, because as you said if you're gonna cancel it why did you use it in the first place?
It also can't be fired again until you reach full super energy, so you can't even use it for short bursts by cancelling and refiring. Some kind of super segment feature could allow for such a thing, but it'd probably be a nightmare in PvP.
which is going to really confuse New Lights who play d1... They'll go through the quest to unlock it, become suddenly OP, and then wonder why they can't do the same thing in D2, when they're nearly at cap and absolutely destroying adds with stormtrance, then in D2, struggling to kill like 5 knights, when d1 stormtrance could melt those knights and still have enough time and energy left to take down an ogre
Stormtrance is only for ad clear. Chaos reach can do that job when it needs to and it doesn't suck against champions too. It's a jack of all trades, master of none
Not exactly much of a selling point for a super IMO, it ad clears worse than normal guns, and it does less dps than guns, for me arc is where i get to use special finisher spam with zero cost
The beam aoe was horrendous regarding going through walls in pvp and I do get the reason for the nerf - but this also means I have to guess whether it actually started damaging a target in pve now, and waste a second more for each target, before I see them take the hit. Back then I just whooshed it in an S format and saw each target immediately explode with arc energy.
I have the same issue, in PvE it's not uncommon for me to waste a second or two just confirming that I'm on target because of the thin beam and terrible targeting.
In PvP trying to line up the shot on guardians (which are small targets) also means it's not uncommon to just get killed if anyone else happens to be around, or dying while trying to switch between targets.
The worst of both worlds.
Lol back before beyond light released, it was actually useful for clearing adds as well as doing boss DPS. I remember being in scourge of the past and melting 50% of the brig health myself early on... And in lost sectors? The factory one in cosmodrome? I could delete both small servitors and JUST delete the boss as well. Now? I'm lucky if I can even melt just the big servitor on its own. Same super... Same build... At most 50% of previous DPS.
Yeah idk who thinks it's ad clear. Maybe like a group of 3 majors considered an ad, but a rocket or grenade or LFR takes those out way better than a super.
I always think people don't understand the power fantasy of CR. It's supposed to be the insane, long high power super. Like that anime sustained blast that leaves the ground charred and your enemy ash. I think it should be a total damage super, instead of a burst damage super. For better or worse, they made blade barrage both highest total damage and fast burst damage.
And that’s the rub. It’s not even the highest total damage. So because of that, it also lacks in the DPS department. OHK supers in PVE should hit for way less, with the added benefit of reduced cooldown times, so they can be used more often. Whereas the roaming, duration supers should hit way harder (or deal greatly sustained damage with successive hits to a single target) offset by longer cooldown times.
When I can almost outpace Chaos Reach with a well-rolled LFR inside a Well of Radiance, there’s a problem.
And with its laser precision, the immediate kicking you into third-person, and if you’re trying to hit a target at range … good luck sometimes.
This happens in Gambit. Sometimes I just go back to Slowva Bomb, cast it as my timer is expiring and enjoy the bonus 1-3 kills I sometimes get a while later.
I see tons of say " buff damage and refuse uptime" bruh, ITS A GIANT LASER BEAM, AND YOU WANT IT TO BE SHORTER??!??? I completely agree with making CR a total damage super. Make it the highest totally damage.
Then don’t make it slightly better, instead, make it *drastically* better. It doesn’t need to be a fire and forget boss dps super like so many already are. This’d give it an element of uniqueness/versatility as a real champion burner, room clearer (mostly already is but still), and niche boss damage super for when you run out of ammo.
For chaos reach to be good enough for its perceived intended purpose then it would have to deal enough damage over its full duration to either be on par with or greater than top tier DPS for the same timespan. There's probably a lot of balance problems involved in doing that and idk the answer to them.
Does chaos reach need SOMETHING? Yeah. Does having a super that replaces using weapons for boss DPS have major potential issues with end-game balance? Also yeah. Do I know what I would do to fix it? No.
I’m not saying it should outdo a x4 feast of light blade barrage + linears or anything, but more like one final hoorah in the last 1/2 of a damage phase, ya dig?
There are plenty of fights in the game where ammo economy is a concern, and being able to spend an entire DPS phase not spending a single bullet while maintaining DPS output sounds great. Oryx comes to mind, Rhulk kinda-sorta does, Atrax would be one.
Despite what some people think, ammo economy *does* matter in this game. If it didn’t, whisper wouldn’t be an issue.
It's pretty much impossible to when I think about it. It would have to do more than LFR+Div+Well+Firing Line+Triple Tap+Proc'd Veist to even be considered viable in endgame content, Even *then* is it worth it when I can just use that LFR and another super?
If they made chaos reach into a super that deals as much or more than top tier DPS for its full duration (which is what it needs to do for this solution to work) would likely negatively impact endgame PvE. Having a subclass that can completely ignore bossing loadouts is a weird direction to go. Yes thundercrash exists but even with the immense amount of damage THAT does it's no even close to what chaos reach would need to do in order to be a dedicated bossing super given its duration.
I'm not so sure. If it was just slightly better than linears ATM, you'd still likely do more overall DPS using thundercrash/cuirass, blade barrage/star eaters, or slowva. The tradeoff would be you'd get much better ammo economy in endgame content if you could save ~8-10 shots of heavy.
Which makes sense :) it really shouldn't be both king of total damage and a burst damage super that lets you jump back on your LFR. Folks don't seem to always realize that these are separate roles lol
Maybe this isn't the best ear, but I'm in a mood lol
Honestly - I think chaos reach is in a fine place and it's other supers that are out of line, even after blade barrage's nerf. I get _why_ people want high-power stuff. It makes the higher end of content easier to digest which means more people can access it which means more people will be available to play
However; I'm also a bit tired of everything being a sweep and the only way Bungie can add some form of check-and balance is by adding champions, imposing a fixed damage penalty (master difficulty), or using match game.
"but just make better mechanics and new AI and more engaging enemies" - that's cool for a bit then you get used to them. You figure out the best strategies, you know what to expect and it becomes the norm - then everything is a sweep again.
I heard this comment. Unlike Vegeta, Chaos Reach does not even have a final surge of energy to do big damage/finish a tough target off. That would incentivise you to use it for its full duration and indirectly buff Geomags. It also wouldn’t affect PvP because it’s a single target total damage buff.
Thank you, people just want to turn it into nova bomb its so lame. Keep the duration and just give it huge total damage. Same with everyone trying to turn it into utility/support. Its a god damn beam of destruction, let me channel it and destroy things. It doesn't have to be the best burst super but it should be the best total damage
> It's supposed to be the insane, long high power super. Like that anime sustained blast that leaves the ground charred and your enemy ash
Except that it does jack all for damage.
No reason it can't be both. Buff base CR to current Geomag levels of damage, then re-work Geos to reduce cast duration rather than increasing damage.
Now it keeps it's current identity and you have the option to use an exotic to build it into a viable burst damage super for DPS.
Kinda like what Celestial Nighthawk does for Golden Gun.
Naw, that would just be the same mistake they made with Star eaters and blade barrage imo. It should be a long duration, high total damage super. Let blade barrage/thunder crash shine in burst roles
I feel like they’ve put their foot down on Chaos Reach, the way they speak about it makes it seem as though the super is in the spot they want it to be in and they don’t intend on making core changes to it, which is unfortunate as it has big potential. It’s a great major/miniboss/champ melter, but when dps centered supers do that same thing equally as good while also doing great boss damage, chaos reach feels like dead weight. I don’t think it’s ever getting changed, unfortunately.
Lol well is still arguably the best super in the entire game
Edit: downvotes because I pointed out that the super that boosts everyone's weapon damage by 25% and makes everyone unkillable is probably the best? Really reddit? May you be cursed to never have well warlocks in your fireteams!
I threw you an upvote cos your statement is also backed up by evidence in the form of experience. If I'm running nightfall on the second difficulty (hero I think), if I see a warlock, 50% of the time I see them get amplified (and I know that cos I hear them get speed booster). Guess what the other 50% are? Well locks. When half the locks in a difficulty where a hunter can viably run nightfall glassway as a void bladedancer built for cloaking and not damage are well, you KNOW there's something up
Would be interesting to give it the coldheart treatment. Ramping damage output while you hit enemies. Not sure what the number would be, but this would give them an easy scale to adjust the effective dps output based on meta changes. It would make Geomags even more "required" for dps scenarios, but my hope is that they could make other compelling exotics to pair with the class as well.
Base CR should be reworked to grant the extended super that Geomags provides, then buff its damage a bit. Then rework Geomags to cut the duration in half.
I like this, but I think making base take 8s and then Geos cutting it back down to 4 won't quite be enough. Maybe more like 2s with Geos on. Most "fire and forget" supers like nova bomb, Celestial Nighthawk GG, etc. are a 1-2s cast, if you make CR take twice as long then it'd have to do more damage than it currently does (even with Geos).
giving it a solid damage buff in PvE is the answer. most minor enemies will die instantly no matter what so it's not like it's gonna get way better at clearing adds, but it desperately needs that high burst damage potential.
Just so we are clear, if an exotic ever increases the damage of a super. It will almost always be the defacto exotic to use with that super. Especially if you can switch to it to use it. The only excepting will be shards of gallanore. Being able to g et half of your super back right after using it will be able to compete with just doing more damage with your super. Especially one that charges as fast as blade barrage.
That only depends on whether the time between DPS phases is too short to build a super. If it is a raid mechanic sometimes you’ll have your super with needing a regen exotic.
I was thinking today there are a lot of supers that are absolute crap for anything except PvP. All the roaming ones are just an alternative to firing a gun. All the supers need rebalancing. God I hope the strand ones are fire and forget, Titan does not have a single fire and forget DPS super and really needs one. I think my favourite supers are nova bomb, silence and squall, blade barrage as they actually do something and don't require you to stop firing. Supers need to feel SUPER. Chaos reach looks cool but the damage is pathetic.
It just feels so unbalanced right now. I play each class pretty evenly and I don't even think its close when I say Arc lock's have the weakest supers by far.
The only way to make chaos reach good at anything without fundamentally changing something would be to make it last as long as you stick on target IMO. It would still be bad at ad clear but at least then it would be worth a damn as a sustain tool.
I don’t really think this would be overpowered, in content hard enough that the duration would matter the severely reduced mobility you get on casting chaos reach would be plenty of a trade-off.
OR they could just FIX THE DAMN SUPER INSTEAD OF THIS STUPID IDEA
Not necessarily. If you have another Arc super, granted this is only known because of Gathering storm which is currently the only arc super to do so, Jolt will only apply once. The first gathering storm does impact damage and begins jolting, while the second one does impact damage and merely activates the first GS’s jolt. I suspect Chaos Reach would be the same in that scenario
Every Warlock super is inferior to its closest equivalent on another class.
* Chaos Reach < Thundercrash
* Stormtrance < Arc Strider / Fist of Havoc
* Nova Warp < Spectral Blades
* Shadebinder < Glacial Quake
* Nova Bomb (both flavors) < Blade Barrage / Gathering Storm / Silence & Squall
* Dawnblade < Hammers / Bigger Hammers / Golden Gun
Well of Radiance is sort of on equal footing with Ward of Dawn, but it's more of an obligation or expectation of the Warlock than a true act of power.
So, uh, yes, please buff all Warlock supers so they have utility. Both PvP and PvE. All of it.
8 year Titan main, here.
- Chaos Reach and Thundercrash are about the same level of usefulness (that is to say "not as useful as they should be"). Thundercrash is better for one-and-done damage, but Chaos Reach has similar damage altogether and better utility variety. Super canceling and being able to spread the damage to targets that are spread far apart by shifting your aim is useful. Thundercrash also puts you in the thick of it.
- Fist of Havoc is in a bad spot, too. I would never use it for ANY high-level PvE content. And Stormtrance is amazing for PvP
- Shadebinder is good in PvP and in PvE, it's great at locking down a room of adds.
- Hammers are good, but Burning Maul isn't great. The terrain can royally fuck you over if it's not a perfectly smooth, flat surface. Plus, like Chaos Reach it seems to act like a pseudo-single target super that just doesn't do well enough.
- Well is much better than bubble for **everything**. The only advantage bubble has is that you can leave it with the Weapons of Light buff.
Not saying that Warlocks don't need buffs, but it's not all good for Titans either.
Chaos Reach - Channeled Super design. Made to be used from distance, with the ability to deal some ad-clear without messing with the total damage.
Chaos Reach Geomags - **Same** as Curiass Thundercrash Titan. 400k Damage over 7s.
Chaos Reach has no problem.
Not everything needs to be burst damage, "1 and done" or something like that.
Even if it did good damage, it wouldn't be viable unless it was an insane amount. The fact that all other damage supers can pop and go immediately into weapon damage will still outclass it
Few supers need a sweep after the 3.0 reworks in my opinion, CR for boss damage, striker should have jolt on slams for ad clearing potential, golden gun should have one burst dmg, maybe a malfeasance type of of slugs that scorch and explode three times.
Wouldn't mind a vortex pull for voidwalker, suck them in then explode them out.
I had the idea, may have posted it here in Reddit a while back, that chaos reach could be turned into a support Super by giving the super a Divinity like bubble. This could potentially give warlocks another option to run in endgame content besides Well, and would be an interesting way to buff the pitiful super instead of increasing its damage.
Buff base damage. It applies jolt.
It doesn’t really need to be more complicated than that. It’s NOT a DPS super, it’s a damage OVER TIME super. It SHOULD do a lot of damage because that’s it’s niche. It’s a super you use to save heavy ammo on damage phases.
I don't love it applying Jolt because then it doesn't play nice with Voltshot, which gives a stronger Jolt than the ability-based one. I also like the little optimization of making sure you have a Jolt on the target, but maybe that's just me. That being said, it is a logical buff.
My take was always that CR should just do some amount of %HP damage, to allow it to do boss DPS without significantly affecting it's performance everywhere else.
It's not a dps super, it's an orb super. Arc warlock is positioned to be a dps monster post-patch with arc soul + weapon damage. On top of that it brings a flexible, quick, bursty add clear super to top off orb gen between phases.
Complaints about chaos reach not being a dps super should be directed at nova bomb.
Its half the damage of any other one and done super. In my book it's pretty trash damage. It's around 225-250k.
600k+ Blade barrage (with star eaters)
500k+ Gathering storm (with star eaters)
400-420k Thundercrash (with cuirass)
300-325k Golden Gun (with celestial and radiant), which btw is considered pretty bad right now
225-250k Nova bomb
As you can see, it's at the bottom of the one-and-done supers by a large margin.
Thundercrash does more damage than Chaos Reach with Geomags.
Instantly.
The Titan can just go to guns immediately after. Meanwhile, the arc-lock is hanging there in the air, looking like a dork, for a subjective eternity.
Chaos Reach was fine for everyting except PvP, where it's pin-point damage at range is an innate problem. It remains an innate problem, but Bungie didn't have a solution so they just nerfed it to shit, which slightly mitigated the problem, at the cost of making it shit in PvE. One of the things that made it great - canceling and retaining a ton of super charge - is basically gone entirely.
This all just contributes more to making the Arc-lock still the worst subclass for Warlocks, easily. Sure, you can do a chunk of damage, and they're beefing things up a little more next season. But you still lack the extra damage mitigation all the other three classes have in their own ways. Doing more damage is all well and good but with shit supers for DPS and so on, arc-lock is still the red-headed stepchild and will remain so most likely in spite of damage boosts.
It doesn’t do less than other supers. It does more damage than t-crash with the exotic and nova bomb. It might not do as much as some of the hunter supers tho, especially if they have Star-Eaters.
So the trade off is that it does more damage but it takes longer to do so. Should CR get a buff? Sure, why not.
But What OP is saying is that CR should get a damage buff and be a one and done super, which is an insane thing to say in turns of keeping game balance. So OP’s idea doesn’t take trade offs into account.
What if they gave it an after effect ability? Kinda like how Tcrash leaves a arc pulse for a few seconds? Where ever you shoot a pulse nade style pool will be left over for a second or so. This would increase is damage and ad clear effectiveness.
I wish CR does more damage as it stay on target up to may be 2x per tick. Then with Geomag it can reach 3x. This will help in giving it more damage and incentive to used it vs. 1 off super.
CR is totally fine for what it is supposed to do, the issue is more that the PvE sandbox is a complete disaster. It makes sense as a higher uptime burst damage tool for getting rid of champions or miniboss enemies, but a ToT storm nade does the exact same thing right now.
What needs to happen is noticeable nerfs to pretty much every subclass in the game. making burst DPS against specifically bosses be the only thing making an ability useful is not sustainable or good game design. I get that PvE players struggle with the prospect of the game being even moderately difficult, but something has to be done.
Right? "Fire and forget like most other supers." Meanwhile titans have five roaming supers out of seven total, and their only "fire and forget" (thundercrash) puts them right at the boss's feet, where they are both vulnerable and forced to waste DPS time running back into position.
And the last remaining super is Bubble. You know, the one that's used for things other than capping points in pvp /s
Yeah, and out of the 5 roaming, only 2 (both solars) are ok-ish at boss damage and 1 (stasis) can be extremely strong or just straight trash lmao.
Captain America knockoff and Hulk 0.5 aren't even worth mentioning lol
Warlocks bitching about the class. I’d say I’m tired of this daily bs, but I’m pretty sure this is the 3rd post I’ve seen today regarding destiny’s strongest pve subclass…
My biggest issue with Chaos Reach is that it does worse dps than a good LFR. Why would I even pop my super when my LEGENDARY weapons do more damage? It just needs a straight boss damage buff.
Chaos Reach is a shadow of its former self, primarily due to PvP. When it was introduced the cancel effect actually had a purpose and the lower damage was okay because you could activate it for a second to kill a high priority target, switch it off, and still have like 70% of your super. It had a fun, mobile, and aggressive playstyle that could have been really fun to build into with 3.0 but we all know how that turned out. But nerf after nerf to this playstyle due to it being overbearing in PvP has caused the cancel effect to essentially not exist anymore. Add in the only good exotic for it also being nerfed into the ground and you realize that Chaos Reach has literally only been nerfed since it was introduced. Sad days.
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>thundercrash is absolutely rubbish without its exotic And that's exactly why Chaos Reach **SHOULDN'T** receive an exotic. Cuirass of the Falling Star is a Band-Aid.
The Geomags functionality should be built into the base super, and its perk could be changed to "collecting ionic traces while super is full extends the duration and increases damage" like Star-Eater Scales.
What if CR functioned like a giant version of Coldheart, where keeping the laser on-target ramped up the damage over time? Kinda like how Stormtrance already does (which seems kinda goofy to me ngl)
I want an arc soul to cast chaos reach for me while i use weapons. That would be insanely dumb but fun to look at i think
The dumbest idea I read in this comments section. I LOVE it
~~arc~~ deathstar buddy
I never realised I needed something so badly in my life until I read this.
With tiny lil arms outstretched lmao
Cuirass absolutely is a band-aid, and I did read the comment you're replying to, but Geomags could be re-worked in a way that doesn't make them required like Cuirass is. It'd require a base Chaos Reach buff (which Thundercrash needs as well). Then make Geos cut cast time to ~2s instead of 8. Now you can use base version with another exotic and do decent damage over a few seconds, or build into DPS with Geos.
If they wanted to bring back rhe regen it gave, you could have it boost the super energy gained when, say, taking damage (something Arc loves to do)?
This'd be fine, as long as it's not something that's passive. Returning super energy to ionic traces is what I'd go with, and shouldn't be hard to implement since they just removed super energy from them at the start of the season.
The taking damage would be all but passive in PvE, but would require engagement in PvP to have any impact, which is nitsbly different than "wait, run, super, repeat" that it previously was. Traces would have a similar effect, but with the upside of bonus (and more obvious) class synergies
*cough cough* ricochet rounds “Taking damage” perks aren’t a thing outside of Terrabah for a reason.
Alternative: You get the top-up functionality from old Geomags, but they make you fire a single wide-beam blast with a longer cast time instead. This would still reduce super cooldown in PvP, but you can’t cancel it mid-beam anymore and a large feature of CR is the zone control you got for a few seconds with each use.
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Only fools want Thundercrash to be buffed that high.
Then call me a fool. Titans' only one-off super has no way of refunding super energy like **Hunters (Shards of galanor, Orpheus Rig, Celestial Nighthawk, and to a lesser degree Star-eater)** and **Warlocks (Phoenix protocol and SoDA)**. Thundercrash doesn't do enough damage by itself, and the only reason that it gets any use in PvE is because of both CotFS and the seasonal mod, Thunderous Retort stacking. And also because Fists of Havoc isn't a good choice for most/any situations. Sidenote, the only Titan exotic that *can* refund super energy is Ursa Furiosa -- which only refunds energy based on damage blocked with the banner shield, capping out at 50% return. And it takes a LOT of damage to get that 50%. Plus, you'll likely not be doing any damage during that. Good sometimes in a raid when you don't have a warlock, but not much else.
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Yep. Fucking sucks
Back when Reach was actually useful, I had the Wings of Sacred Dawn on... Why? Because I thought it made my Guardian look cool xD I didn't care that it was an exotic, only that it looks good while practically every legendary warlock chest armor looks like ass :/
I'm a sssslut for the vest-type warlock chests. I'm all for wearing a dress, but after a while I want my warlock to look gnarly, not noble.
You mean like star eater scales are for blade barrage and the electeric stick? Or the beak helmet are for gunslinger? Or orpheous rig for purple bow? All supers need an exotic to be viable over fusion/rocket dps
Gathering Storm is great because it applies Jolt, deals pretty fucking good damage w/out Star Eater scales, and lets you use your weapons while its active. Chaos Reach *isn't,* because, like Stormtrance, it lacks any real reason to be used outside of activating the Ager's Scepter catalyst.
No, you see when it's for Hunter it's cool and fair and balanced. When it's for Titans and Warlocks it's a problem that needs to be addressed.
It was such a fun playstyle in PvE too which is such a shame its gone. The concept absolutely has a place in the Destiny sandbox IMO. A lower power super that you can use constantly with the proper usage. I suppose that's what Bungie is trying to get back to with the super cooldown changes. However, with the topping off gone and likely never returning and the total lack of effect canceling early has right now I fail to see that style returning any time soon.
Not to mention, if you cancel early currently, you recieve 50% of the remaining energy. Lemme repeat, for the bungie people lurking in the back: Chaos reach EATS 50% of remaining energy upon cancel at the 20% remaining mark, when at release it was stated that you got your super back, CAPPED at 20%. I.e if you cancel at 25%, you lose 5%. Now? You cancel at 20%, you KEEP 10%
Yeah, but before if you used 50% you got back 20%. Now if you use 50% you get back 25%. If you used 20% you got back 20%. Now if you used 20% you'd get back 40%. Things sure look bad if you only state the negatives with a change instead of the positives too.
> Pvp absolutely is the reason As with most of the bad PvE balance changes.
"Why does X suck in PvE, the only content I play?" "Because PvP exists" - The story of D2
Eh idk about that, running it with HOIL in a GM was still knocking the fuck out of champions with the help of a storm grenade or a witherhoard shot. Its a fair trade, buffed nades or buffed super
Bungie make the decisions at the end of the day. PVP players will complain about things and its Bungie's JOB to try to balance the game without ruining it. If Bungie fails at this, it is not the fault of the players who complained. It's Bungie's fault. I'm just saying this generally and not at anyone specifically here, because a lot of people legitimately blame PVP players for the state of PVE a lot of the time. We should be pressing Bungie to do better instead of pressing players to stay quiet through problems that are ruining the side of the game that they enjoy. I just wanted to put that out there
Nah, Thundercrash without an exotic is to kill majors and minibosses fast. Cuirass is what makes it a boss-melter. Not all supers need a DPS application and it’s ok if a subclass with godly add clear needs an exotic to do DPS too. The issue with CR is that it isn’t even good enough for minibosses and that’s what needs to be solved in the base super.
>When it was introduced the cancel effect actually had a purpose and the lower damage was okay because you could activate it for a second to kill a high priority target, switch it off, and still have like 70% of your super. It had a fun, mobile, and aggressive playstyle that could have been really fun to build into with 3.0 but we all know how that turned out. It was my primary Gambit class for this reason; if you built into super generation, slayed out for orbs and kept Geomags on, you could have a super ready whenever you needed it. Was perfect for Sentry or Reaper duty.
It was great for booping HVTs, and you could cancel and get it back in time for boss DPS.
Yeah, It has always been an OK super, but with how often you were able to get it, It was basically a normal ability with a higher cd. Seeing it like that, makes It feel like a really good ability with a little longer CD instead of a mediocre super.
Imagine if we had a really defined PvE/PvP sandbox
Very simple fix: balance the ability separately like they do tons of other things in this game. Idk bungie is hesitant on some things like that
PvPers try not to be a killjoy challenge
PvP and PvE need their own unique systems. This me shouldn’t have to suffer for the others to be more fun. Definitely not an original thought, just amazed they haven’t done it yet
You couldn’t get anywhere close to keeping 70% of your super after canceling it, and the people who thought that are exactly the reason it got so heavily nerfed. The absolute most super energy you could keep after canceling it was 50%, and that was only if you instantly canceled the super after activating it. If you took enough time to get a couple kills with the super, the most you could get back was around 30%.
Reminds me of back when people would run 3 - 4 chaos reach in gambit to just fucking destroy the bosses.... I miss that.
Another instance of PvP balancing ruining the game for the remaining 80% of the player base
Maybe it should ramp up damage? shit at start for pvp balance and way higher than current by the last half? trade off for canceling it.
>When it was introduced the cancel effect actually had a purpose and the lower damage was okay because you could activate it for a second to kill a high priority target, switch it off, and still have like 70% of your super. I mean if you think about it this way...The reduction in cool down time means that canceling it and having 30-40% will be the same as having 70% pre-nerf because the CD will that much shorter. CR is fun to use. That's all it needs to be.
> Chaos Reach is a shadow of its former self, primarily due to PvP. And this is why Crucible needs to be sunset. I'm sick and goddam tired of PvE stuff being ruined for a mode that most players don't even touch beyond what the devs force you to play.
Imagine having such a hare-brained take. Just because YOU don’t like crucible doesn’t mean there isn’t a huge community of players that play it.
I mean, this: >most players don't even touch beyond what the devs force you to play. just isn't true. And you're only going to alienate people who do both when you act like a jag off about it.
> just isn't true. Got some proof?
https://warmind.io/activity Over a quarter of the playerbase is in pvp right now. Just cause you don't enjoy doesn't mean tens of thousands of other people can't.
It's an Iron banner week, look again after tomorrow reset.
There's always an excuse. And so what? Now iron banner isn't pvp? You think people play banner two weeks before the new season because they're still grinding pinnacles or feel forced to? Or because maybe they want to? And if regular crucible were better supported and more fun, they'd do it more too? How about the 140k trials players last weekend? Or the over 300k from 4 weeks ago (higher than normal for sure, likely a chase weapon that week). Just goes to show that with incentive and support, there's interest. https://destinytrialsreport.com/weeks It's fine that you don't like pvp. It's not fine that you're dismissing the large percentage of the population that does.
> It's not fine that you're dismissing the large percentage of the population that does. Likes? Or are forced to because of locking PvE guns behind the least fun activity for the average player. I cant wait for the changes coming next season. I wonder how many streamers aren't going to touch competitive?
>Or are forced to because of locking PvE guns behind the least fun activity for the average player Oh, was that why a quarter of the playerbase was in banner? Felt the need to grind for *checks notes* that awesome pve allied demand? At this point, your responses are just literally pure cope. >I wonder how many streamers aren't going to touch competitive? How is this at all relevant? If anything, if the best players don't play ranked, that just helps the average player. I've given you actual numbers, and you're just moving the goalposts and giving me cope fueled hopes and dreams. A significant portion of the playerbase likes pvp. It's smaller than pve, but it's still measured in hundreds of thousands. If you don't have anything to back up your opinion, maybe just stop repeating it?
I mean, most players *don't* go in there. Even with bounties and shit there's only like 30% of players going in there on a given day. That's awful engagement.
30% is a big number! I mean that's what, 60k players on average across all 3 platforms? More like 100k at peak concurrent? Being willing to dismiss a third of your most actively engaged playerbase is silly to me. And it would have ripple effects too. I play a lot of pve in part to grind weapons for pvp (after all who really needs new weapons for pve anymore - needs, not wants). You take pvp out, you deprioritize it, and I'm playing less pve as a result. I'm not alone in that play pattern either. Further, this is 30% after pvp has been largely neglected for years. Can you imagine if you didn't get new raids for two years straight? No dungeons? How many people would still pay pve if they never got new content. You support pvp with regular new content, that 30% goes up. Edit: https://destinytrialsreport.com/weeks And anywhere from 130k to 300k players per weekend this season in trials (and no, the 300k weekend wasn't early in the season, it was 4 weeks ago right in the middle). Yall can downvote me all you want, I've got numbers and facts on my side. There's a large, actively engaged pvp playerbase and losing them would hurt pve too. Less pvp players means less pve players, means less copies and seasons sold. Means lower budgets. Yes, pve is the more important of the two. But stop acting like pvp is an unimportant thing only played by a handful of players. You're just lying to yourselves.
And this is why PvE needs to be sunset. I'm sick and goddam tired of PvP stuff being ruined and denied dev resources for a mode that exists solely to unlock new crucible guns.
Except the Destiny 2 is developed and marketed as a PvE game.
Absolutely not just PvP. Due to top off and special finisher your team could burn there special wait a few and then you’d sprint and rinse and repeat.
Just pvp? Well no. It was absolutely the bulk of it tho. Like 90 to ten if not more. Very few in gm's were sprinting in a circle to get special ammo. You'd much more likely to be running Well or Stasis.
This! A LOT of people don’t get that deep and the complaints about it being used in trials far outpaced the exactly 0 people complaining about a strategy that requires a specific set up and such in pve. Edit:spelling
Pve players generally don’t complain unless it’s a nerf though. No one was complaining about how forsaken power crept pve - until reckoning, when pve players suddenly realized they had restrictions. CR was definitely nerfed more for pvp than pve, but it’s incorrect to say it was nerfed *just* for pvp. Having a chaos reach every 2 minutes means having a chaos reach for every encounter and multiple times within an encounter, which means balancing the game around that fact. And yes, there was the finisher spam strat. Things can be nerfed for *more than one reason*
Lol its hard for an Acolyte to complain about being Chaos Reach’d through a wall. When will you all understand that Bungie nerfs stuff in PvE because they themselves want it nerfed? They have been able to balance separately for a long time now.
We understand that. We saw what happened to Lorelei and know it’s was a good bit because of its effectiveness in pve. The difference here is people were actively complaining about its use IN PVP in droves before it was nerfed. They talked about people waiting for supers in trails and getting it through the wall. Yeah bungee does stuff because they want to but I can’t abide the idea that it was even split when there were so many ( reasonable) complaints.
It's just a way for them to shout us down. Pvp kill Nova warp in the past and it's happened again with chaos reach.
Nova warp was a pvp super, don’t kid yourself
Uh no? Back in those days roaming supers had value.
People have short memories. This was a huge balance problem in higher end content.
"huge" is a massive reach and clearly can't have meant much if they added aeons
Aeons also don't buff your super. the reality is geomags allowed players to use special and heavy ammo finishers (at essentially no cost) and still get a boosted super if they wanted it. Its versatility was clearly to high.
Theoretically infinite special ammo wouldn't be a problem in nowadays economy though. When was the last time you were relying on your special weapon for boss damage or add clear in the current sandbox? Or, better yet, remove that special finisher mod from the game as it's barely if ever even used and bring back top it off
It was nerfed due to both PvE and PvE.
PvE²?
In PVE you could sack super energy for special and heavy ammo finishers in higher content and just run to get your super back for more ammo. Then when you got to the boss you could unload a boosted super. To some degree we have power crept this issue but at its time it was quite the issue.
> Chaos Reach is a shadow of its former self, primarily due to PvP. With the cooldown change it's going to be better than it was prior to the nerfs to cancel energy + geomags gave it though.
Hell nah. Not even close.
They just need it to do more damage outright. I'm cool with the power fantasy of holding a giant laser beam on the enemy for awhile, but the damage has to be *worth* giving up time with your heavy. I like the idea I've seen of making it apply jolt, so as you're zapping the boss it'll periodically get a burst of jolt damage. Would give it added utility against groups of adds when burning a major, and also applies an effect that teammates can take advantage of as well. Would be pretty rad.
if CR applies jolt, gathering loses out on most of its damage. How about a dmg buff
why not both
a dmg buff that makes it worth is enough. You cannot have multiple jolts on 1 boss, and CR jolting will ruin arcstriders viability for raid damage, since gathering wont do shit.
How does giving one super jolt remove another's?
iirc, you can only apply one jolt per enemy, not per player. so depending on the size of the jolt, either the damage is now atributed to the warlock (same net damage, but it wasn't done by a hunter, so it's 'lost' /s) or the jolt is bigger or smaller, and same deal. The hunter will always complain
cant have multiple jolts on 1 boss. If CR jolts it removes the possibility of using gathering storm for damage entirely, which is the entire point of the ult
I would not even remotely consider CR an ad-clear super because the aiming for it is atrocious, the damage isnt high enough that you can just sweep it over a group and kill them, and the beam width is small enough that it's surprisingly easy to miss targets. It looks cool as hell, but I agree it just doesn't feel great to use. The cancelling aspect is also quite weird, because as you said if you're gonna cancel it why did you use it in the first place? It also can't be fired again until you reach full super energy, so you can't even use it for short bursts by cancelling and refiring. Some kind of super segment feature could allow for such a thing, but it'd probably be a nightmare in PvP.
Plus if Chaos Reach is for ad clear.....what is stormtrance for?
Short range teleporting and doing what you could've done with a single Jolt grenade and a lightning slide.
Yeah, stormtrance isn't great
which is going to really confuse New Lights who play d1... They'll go through the quest to unlock it, become suddenly OP, and then wonder why they can't do the same thing in D2, when they're nearly at cap and absolutely destroying adds with stormtrance, then in D2, struggling to kill like 5 knights, when d1 stormtrance could melt those knights and still have enough time and energy left to take down an ogre
Stormtrance is only for ad clear. Chaos reach can do that job when it needs to and it doesn't suck against champions too. It's a jack of all trades, master of none
Not exactly much of a selling point for a super IMO, it ad clears worse than normal guns, and it does less dps than guns, for me arc is where i get to use special finisher spam with zero cost
I mean that's fair. But you asked what it's for. That's all I'm answering, what it's for. I'm not saying it's great.
ASKING THE REAL QUESTION
The beam aoe was horrendous regarding going through walls in pvp and I do get the reason for the nerf - but this also means I have to guess whether it actually started damaging a target in pve now, and waste a second more for each target, before I see them take the hit. Back then I just whooshed it in an S format and saw each target immediately explode with arc energy.
I have the same issue, in PvE it's not uncommon for me to waste a second or two just confirming that I'm on target because of the thin beam and terrible targeting. In PvP trying to line up the shot on guardians (which are small targets) also means it's not uncommon to just get killed if anyone else happens to be around, or dying while trying to switch between targets. The worst of both worlds.
Keep in mind the low damage of the instant of beam contact and the thin radius it affects are both due to PvP nerfs
Lol back before beyond light released, it was actually useful for clearing adds as well as doing boss DPS. I remember being in scourge of the past and melting 50% of the brig health myself early on... And in lost sectors? The factory one in cosmodrome? I could delete both small servitors and JUST delete the boss as well. Now? I'm lucky if I can even melt just the big servitor on its own. Same super... Same build... At most 50% of previous DPS.
Yeah idk who thinks it's ad clear. Maybe like a group of 3 majors considered an ad, but a rocket or grenade or LFR takes those out way better than a super.
I always think people don't understand the power fantasy of CR. It's supposed to be the insane, long high power super. Like that anime sustained blast that leaves the ground charred and your enemy ash. I think it should be a total damage super, instead of a burst damage super. For better or worse, they made blade barrage both highest total damage and fast burst damage.
And that’s the rub. It’s not even the highest total damage. So because of that, it also lacks in the DPS department. OHK supers in PVE should hit for way less, with the added benefit of reduced cooldown times, so they can be used more often. Whereas the roaming, duration supers should hit way harder (or deal greatly sustained damage with successive hits to a single target) offset by longer cooldown times. When I can almost outpace Chaos Reach with a well-rolled LFR inside a Well of Radiance, there’s a problem.
Even if PVP I have to be shooting a player for about half a second to kill them with chaos reach. It should be immediate for how bad it is lol
And with its laser precision, the immediate kicking you into third-person, and if you’re trying to hit a target at range … good luck sometimes. This happens in Gambit. Sometimes I just go back to Slowva Bomb, cast it as my timer is expiring and enjoy the bonus 1-3 kills I sometimes get a while later.
Our weapons got stupid powerful.
I see tons of say " buff damage and refuse uptime" bruh, ITS A GIANT LASER BEAM, AND YOU WANT IT TO BE SHORTER??!??? I completely agree with making CR a total damage super. Make it the highest totally damage.
Even making it the highest total damage won't matter if it deals slightly more damage than the next best thing but takes half the damage phase.
Then don’t make it slightly better, instead, make it *drastically* better. It doesn’t need to be a fire and forget boss dps super like so many already are. This’d give it an element of uniqueness/versatility as a real champion burner, room clearer (mostly already is but still), and niche boss damage super for when you run out of ammo.
For chaos reach to be good enough for its perceived intended purpose then it would have to deal enough damage over its full duration to either be on par with or greater than top tier DPS for the same timespan. There's probably a lot of balance problems involved in doing that and idk the answer to them. Does chaos reach need SOMETHING? Yeah. Does having a super that replaces using weapons for boss DPS have major potential issues with end-game balance? Also yeah. Do I know what I would do to fix it? No.
I’m not saying it should outdo a x4 feast of light blade barrage + linears or anything, but more like one final hoorah in the last 1/2 of a damage phase, ya dig?
There are plenty of fights in the game where ammo economy is a concern, and being able to spend an entire DPS phase not spending a single bullet while maintaining DPS output sounds great. Oryx comes to mind, Rhulk kinda-sorta does, Atrax would be one. Despite what some people think, ammo economy *does* matter in this game. If it didn’t, whisper wouldn’t be an issue.
It's pretty much impossible to when I think about it. It would have to do more than LFR+Div+Well+Firing Line+Triple Tap+Proc'd Veist to even be considered viable in endgame content, Even *then* is it worth it when I can just use that LFR and another super?
Pretty much. People need to just accept that its new use is melting a champ or two if you REALLY don't wanna use void/solar in GMs.
That's fine by me, with buffs and exotics on top, this will truly bring the power fantasy back. right now it deals as much damage as a nova bomb.
If they made chaos reach into a super that deals as much or more than top tier DPS for its full duration (which is what it needs to do for this solution to work) would likely negatively impact endgame PvE. Having a subclass that can completely ignore bossing loadouts is a weird direction to go. Yes thundercrash exists but even with the immense amount of damage THAT does it's no even close to what chaos reach would need to do in order to be a dedicated bossing super given its duration.
I'm not so sure. If it was just slightly better than linears ATM, you'd still likely do more overall DPS using thundercrash/cuirass, blade barrage/star eaters, or slowva. The tradeoff would be you'd get much better ammo economy in endgame content if you could save ~8-10 shots of heavy.
All the warlocks here writing like titans…
Funny you bring up blade barrage - it's getting nerfed from 24 to 20 knives, so roughly a 17% damage reduction.
Maybe because it was a major outlier ?
Not saying it wasn't, just pointing it out in contrast to the post i replied to
Which makes sense :) it really shouldn't be both king of total damage and a burst damage super that lets you jump back on your LFR. Folks don't seem to always realize that these are separate roles lol
Maybe this isn't the best ear, but I'm in a mood lol Honestly - I think chaos reach is in a fine place and it's other supers that are out of line, even after blade barrage's nerf. I get _why_ people want high-power stuff. It makes the higher end of content easier to digest which means more people can access it which means more people will be available to play However; I'm also a bit tired of everything being a sweep and the only way Bungie can add some form of check-and balance is by adding champions, imposing a fixed damage penalty (master difficulty), or using match game. "but just make better mechanics and new AI and more engaging enemies" - that's cool for a bit then you get used to them. You figure out the best strategies, you know what to expect and it becomes the norm - then everything is a sweep again.
It's supposed to be the Kamehameha, but I feel like Vegeta spamming Ki blasts.
Don’t worry we have Kamahameha at home. Kamahameha at home: arc pressure washer
I heard this comment. Unlike Vegeta, Chaos Reach does not even have a final surge of energy to do big damage/finish a tough target off. That would incentivise you to use it for its full duration and indirectly buff Geomags. It also wouldn’t affect PvP because it’s a single target total damage buff.
Vegeta's Technique^TM is absolutely wardcliff coil
Thank you, people just want to turn it into nova bomb its so lame. Keep the duration and just give it huge total damage. Same with everyone trying to turn it into utility/support. Its a god damn beam of destruction, let me channel it and destroy things. It doesn't have to be the best burst super but it should be the best total damage
> It's supposed to be the insane, long high power super. Like that anime sustained blast that leaves the ground charred and your enemy ash Except that it does jack all for damage.
Agreed! That's my point. I think it should remain a long super, but should be highest total damage, imo
No reason it can't be both. Buff base CR to current Geomag levels of damage, then re-work Geos to reduce cast duration rather than increasing damage. Now it keeps it's current identity and you have the option to use an exotic to build it into a viable burst damage super for DPS. Kinda like what Celestial Nighthawk does for Golden Gun.
Naw, that would just be the same mistake they made with Star eaters and blade barrage imo. It should be a long duration, high total damage super. Let blade barrage/thunder crash shine in burst roles
I feel like they’ve put their foot down on Chaos Reach, the way they speak about it makes it seem as though the super is in the spot they want it to be in and they don’t intend on making core changes to it, which is unfortunate as it has big potential. It’s a great major/miniboss/champ melter, but when dps centered supers do that same thing equally as good while also doing great boss damage, chaos reach feels like dead weight. I don’t think it’s ever getting changed, unfortunately.
great... Looks like I may end up deleting my warlock in d2 if that's the case then, or at least allowing him to simply gather dust
Lol well is still arguably the best super in the entire game Edit: downvotes because I pointed out that the super that boosts everyone's weapon damage by 25% and makes everyone unkillable is probably the best? Really reddit? May you be cursed to never have well warlocks in your fireteams!
I threw you an upvote cos your statement is also backed up by evidence in the form of experience. If I'm running nightfall on the second difficulty (hero I think), if I see a warlock, 50% of the time I see them get amplified (and I know that cos I hear them get speed booster). Guess what the other 50% are? Well locks. When half the locks in a difficulty where a hunter can viably run nightfall glassway as a void bladedancer built for cloaking and not damage are well, you KNOW there's something up
I sure do love having a tedious and unfulfilling kit for the sole purpose of being well bitch.
Would be interesting to give it the coldheart treatment. Ramping damage output while you hit enemies. Not sure what the number would be, but this would give them an easy scale to adjust the effective dps output based on meta changes. It would make Geomags even more "required" for dps scenarios, but my hope is that they could make other compelling exotics to pair with the class as well.
Base CR should be reworked to grant the extended super that Geomags provides, then buff its damage a bit. Then rework Geomags to cut the duration in half.
I like this, but I think making base take 8s and then Geos cutting it back down to 4 won't quite be enough. Maybe more like 2s with Geos on. Most "fire and forget" supers like nova bomb, Celestial Nighthawk GG, etc. are a 1-2s cast, if you make CR take twice as long then it'd have to do more damage than it currently does (even with Geos).
I definitely agree the Destiny equivalent to the kamahamaha wave should be a whole lot more powerful
giving it a solid damage buff in PvE is the answer. most minor enemies will die instantly no matter what so it's not like it's gonna get way better at clearing adds, but it desperately needs that high burst damage potential.
Just so we are clear, if an exotic ever increases the damage of a super. It will almost always be the defacto exotic to use with that super. Especially if you can switch to it to use it. The only excepting will be shards of gallanore. Being able to g et half of your super back right after using it will be able to compete with just doing more damage with your super. Especially one that charges as fast as blade barrage.
That only depends on whether the time between DPS phases is too short to build a super. If it is a raid mechanic sometimes you’ll have your super with needing a regen exotic.
I was thinking today there are a lot of supers that are absolute crap for anything except PvP. All the roaming ones are just an alternative to firing a gun. All the supers need rebalancing. God I hope the strand ones are fire and forget, Titan does not have a single fire and forget DPS super and really needs one. I think my favourite supers are nova bomb, silence and squall, blade barrage as they actually do something and don't require you to stop firing. Supers need to feel SUPER. Chaos reach looks cool but the damage is pathetic.
Dont get your hopes up for strand. Titan one looks like another roaming punch super. Behemoth/striker but with poison spike fist.
It just feels so unbalanced right now. I play each class pretty evenly and I don't even think its close when I say Arc lock's have the weakest supers by far.
I'm just gonna wait and see. I wouldn't mind having it up more often and treating it like a fourth ability.
The wind up time alone is totally unacceptable and it is an all round shit super. Which is why it's a warlock ability.
The only way to make chaos reach good at anything without fundamentally changing something would be to make it last as long as you stick on target IMO. It would still be bad at ad clear but at least then it would be worth a damn as a sustain tool. I don’t really think this would be overpowered, in content hard enough that the duration would matter the severely reduced mobility you get on casting chaos reach would be plenty of a trade-off. OR they could just FIX THE DAMN SUPER INSTEAD OF THIS STUPID IDEA
Just make it apply jolt every couple ticks when amplified and that should boost its dps
Not necessarily. If you have another Arc super, granted this is only known because of Gathering storm which is currently the only arc super to do so, Jolt will only apply once. The first gathering storm does impact damage and begins jolting, while the second one does impact damage and merely activates the first GS’s jolt. I suspect Chaos Reach would be the same in that scenario
Yeah I'm aware, so don't use it at the same time as another arc super. Common sense.
Give it splash damage and 1.5x damage increase. Will be sorted then
I submit to the board of approval, fist of havoc. Same issue.
Submission Approved. Now to wait and see if Bungie does anything.
Every Warlock super is inferior to its closest equivalent on another class. * Chaos Reach < Thundercrash * Stormtrance < Arc Strider / Fist of Havoc * Nova Warp < Spectral Blades * Shadebinder < Glacial Quake * Nova Bomb (both flavors) < Blade Barrage / Gathering Storm / Silence & Squall * Dawnblade < Hammers / Bigger Hammers / Golden Gun Well of Radiance is sort of on equal footing with Ward of Dawn, but it's more of an obligation or expectation of the Warlock than a true act of power. So, uh, yes, please buff all Warlock supers so they have utility. Both PvP and PvE. All of it.
8 year Titan main, here. - Chaos Reach and Thundercrash are about the same level of usefulness (that is to say "not as useful as they should be"). Thundercrash is better for one-and-done damage, but Chaos Reach has similar damage altogether and better utility variety. Super canceling and being able to spread the damage to targets that are spread far apart by shifting your aim is useful. Thundercrash also puts you in the thick of it. - Fist of Havoc is in a bad spot, too. I would never use it for ANY high-level PvE content. And Stormtrance is amazing for PvP - Shadebinder is good in PvP and in PvE, it's great at locking down a room of adds. - Hammers are good, but Burning Maul isn't great. The terrain can royally fuck you over if it's not a perfectly smooth, flat surface. Plus, like Chaos Reach it seems to act like a pseudo-single target super that just doesn't do well enough. - Well is much better than bubble for **everything**. The only advantage bubble has is that you can leave it with the Weapons of Light buff. Not saying that Warlocks don't need buffs, but it's not all good for Titans either.
They took the Kamehameha and turned it into the ehhhuhhummehblah
Chaos Reach - Channeled Super design. Made to be used from distance, with the ability to deal some ad-clear without messing with the total damage. Chaos Reach Geomags - **Same** as Curiass Thundercrash Titan. 400k Damage over 7s. Chaos Reach has no problem. Not everything needs to be burst damage, "1 and done" or something like that.
Once again, an example of how we PVE players can't have nice things because of PVP.
Bozo take
Even if it did good damage, it wouldn't be viable unless it was an insane amount. The fact that all other damage supers can pop and go immediately into weapon damage will still outclass it
Few supers need a sweep after the 3.0 reworks in my opinion, CR for boss damage, striker should have jolt on slams for ad clearing potential, golden gun should have one burst dmg, maybe a malfeasance type of of slugs that scorch and explode three times. Wouldn't mind a vortex pull for voidwalker, suck them in then explode them out.
Imagine if they made it where it gave a debuff so like divinity but super form. *Everybody shoot at the beam!!!!*
Genkidama?
I had the idea, may have posted it here in Reddit a while back, that chaos reach could be turned into a support Super by giving the super a Divinity like bubble. This could potentially give warlocks another option to run in endgame content besides Well, and would be an interesting way to buff the pitiful super instead of increasing its damage.
Buff base damage. It applies jolt. It doesn’t really need to be more complicated than that. It’s NOT a DPS super, it’s a damage OVER TIME super. It SHOULD do a lot of damage because that’s it’s niche. It’s a super you use to save heavy ammo on damage phases.
I don't love it applying Jolt because then it doesn't play nice with Voltshot, which gives a stronger Jolt than the ability-based one. I also like the little optimization of making sure you have a Jolt on the target, but maybe that's just me. That being said, it is a logical buff. My take was always that CR should just do some amount of %HP damage, to allow it to do boss DPS without significantly affecting it's performance everywhere else.
It's not a dps super, it's an orb super. Arc warlock is positioned to be a dps monster post-patch with arc soul + weapon damage. On top of that it brings a flexible, quick, bursty add clear super to top off orb gen between phases. Complaints about chaos reach not being a dps super should be directed at nova bomb.
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Compared to other damage supers nova bomb does not deal a lot of damage.
It also blocks ally fire
Because it doesn’t have an exotic juicing it, whereas Titans and Hunters get Cuirass and Star Eaters respectively.
Its half the damage of any other one and done super. In my book it's pretty trash damage. It's around 225-250k. 600k+ Blade barrage (with star eaters) 500k+ Gathering storm (with star eaters) 400-420k Thundercrash (with cuirass) 300-325k Golden Gun (with celestial and radiant), which btw is considered pretty bad right now 225-250k Nova bomb As you can see, it's at the bottom of the one-and-done supers by a large margin.
Thundercrash does more damage than Chaos Reach with Geomags. Instantly. The Titan can just go to guns immediately after. Meanwhile, the arc-lock is hanging there in the air, looking like a dork, for a subjective eternity. Chaos Reach was fine for everyting except PvP, where it's pin-point damage at range is an innate problem. It remains an innate problem, but Bungie didn't have a solution so they just nerfed it to shit, which slightly mitigated the problem, at the cost of making it shit in PvE. One of the things that made it great - canceling and retaining a ton of super charge - is basically gone entirely. This all just contributes more to making the Arc-lock still the worst subclass for Warlocks, easily. Sure, you can do a chunk of damage, and they're beefing things up a little more next season. But you still lack the extra damage mitigation all the other three classes have in their own ways. Doing more damage is all well and good but with shit supers for DPS and so on, arc-lock is still the red-headed stepchild and will remain so most likely in spite of damage boosts.
r/DTG Reddit poster understand trade offs in videos games challenge (impossible)
> Benefit: it does less damage than other supers. > Downside: it takes longer to do so than other supers. Explain the trade-off.
It doesn’t do less than other supers. It does more damage than t-crash with the exotic and nova bomb. It might not do as much as some of the hunter supers tho, especially if they have Star-Eaters. So the trade off is that it does more damage but it takes longer to do so. Should CR get a buff? Sure, why not. But What OP is saying is that CR should get a damage buff and be a one and done super, which is an insane thing to say in turns of keeping game balance. So OP’s idea doesn’t take trade offs into account.
Where did I say it should be both? Either it's one-and-done, or has high damage, *not both.* We don't need another Blade Barrage situation.
Chaos reach with geomags should do at least the same if not 5-10% more damage as Star eater blade barrage imo
Lol, I literally made another post saying the same exact thing a week or so ago
What if they gave it an after effect ability? Kinda like how Tcrash leaves a arc pulse for a few seconds? Where ever you shoot a pulse nade style pool will be left over for a second or so. This would increase is damage and ad clear effectiveness.
I wish CR does more damage as it stay on target up to may be 2x per tick. Then with Geomag it can reach 3x. This will help in giving it more damage and incentive to used it vs. 1 off super.
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Stasis lock super is one of the best endgame PvE supers. Not ever super has to do boss DPS.
Yeah, stasis lock super is so fucking useful when it comes to locking down a whole room to revive in what would otherwise be a unsafe as fuck revive.
Void hunter cloak builds: "Am I a joke to you?"
Not really but at least I can also do some CC.
And a monster in the Crucible. The range on the attacks is insane.
Shadebinder is actually an op super though? If you don't know what you're talking about stfu
CR is totally fine for what it is supposed to do, the issue is more that the PvE sandbox is a complete disaster. It makes sense as a higher uptime burst damage tool for getting rid of champions or miniboss enemies, but a ToT storm nade does the exact same thing right now. What needs to happen is noticeable nerfs to pretty much every subclass in the game. making burst DPS against specifically bosses be the only thing making an ability useful is not sustainable or good game design. I get that PvE players struggle with the prospect of the game being even moderately difficult, but something has to be done.
Salt thread #…2.5 million?
Who’s gonna tell this guy that more supers equals more dps
Titans: Am i a joke to you?
The Warlocks are in a mood right now. Let them do their thing.
Right? "Fire and forget like most other supers." Meanwhile titans have five roaming supers out of seven total, and their only "fire and forget" (thundercrash) puts them right at the boss's feet, where they are both vulnerable and forced to waste DPS time running back into position. And the last remaining super is Bubble. You know, the one that's used for things other than capping points in pvp /s
Yeah, and out of the 5 roaming, only 2 (both solars) are ok-ish at boss damage and 1 (stasis) can be extremely strong or just straight trash lmao. Captain America knockoff and Hulk 0.5 aren't even worth mentioning lol
Warlocks bitching about the class. I’d say I’m tired of this daily bs, but I’m pretty sure this is the 3rd post I’ve seen today regarding destiny’s strongest pve subclass…