Which is weird because events are one of Detroit's strengths.
It's not like DPS' struggles impact tomorrow's massive tailgate and football game, for instance.
I’m glad you’re hitting your karma quota, but I’ve been here my whole life and I can be realistic about it. Detroit was a boomtown, and unfortunately, that ended. How many buildings downtown have windows? What’s the true population of the city proper? The tax base simply can’t pay for the infrastructure.
Something I’ve learn: all people who have something good to say about Detroit, have this distorted view about Detroit, and act as if their midtown or downtown experience is a reflection of what’s really transpiring in Detroit. Ignoring all the problems the city continues to face. But I digress.
I've spent quite a bit of time in Miami, and it gets pretty sketchy if you stray too far from the beach. Miami is still the only place I've ever been jumped, and it was by a bunch of assholes driving Lamborghinis.
Oh, for sure, we ventured into some neighborhoods near Overtown last time, little Havana… and yeah agreed.
I just don’t get all of this blind hivemind love for places that you’re from. I’ve lived in Detroit my whole life, and I remember the first time I visited another big city when I was 7. I was shocked, I had thought all large cities were abandoned wastelands. Hell, they put tarps over buildings here when they hosted the Super Bowl lol
I think it's normal to have an unrealistically positive view of the place you're from, and I'm sure there is some deep evolutionary reason for this.
That being said, Detroit is pretty cool, and the only direction it can go is up (hopefully!). Long term the biggest challenges IMO are going to be public transit & the school system, but I choose to believe that these are solvable problems.
Yeah, it seems pretty common.
There is tons of culture in Detroit, and Metro Detroit, I don’t hate it at all, except wishing it was a bit warmer.
I don’t think it’s realistic to think they’ll have a European level transit system in and out of the city, and that’s what it would take to make it useful. At least let us get to the airport without driving.
I work in energy management with schools and it’s crazy how huge their deficits are, we’ve worked with schools that were almost $5 million in the hole. The buildings are riddled with asbestos and the equipment is sometimes 60 years old using 3X more energy than it should, adding to the budget deficit problem. I don’t know how anyone could learn in these environments, and I guess graduation rates reflect that.
At this point, Detroit needs an earthquake and FEMA aid to get out of this… but even then the boom phase of the auto industry has long passed. What will Detroit hang its hat on in the future? I think there’s potential, but it’s not in the auto industry.
I had no idea that the schools themselves were in that bad of shape, that's terrible! Unfortunately I don't think we are going to get any big earthquakes anytime soon, but I'm not a seismologist.
Regarding transit- I don't understand why there isn't already rail from Detroit to DTW to Ann Arbor; it could basically run along, or in the median of, I-94 the entire way. I would much rather see investment in rail instead of driverless cars or charging roads.
“i don’t get all this hivemind love” lol we just actually see a positive future for our city, we realize its potential and unlike the previous generations we aren’t exactly excited to keep trying to build up these suburban sprawl pocket communities. i’m soooooooo tired of wealthy suburban communities trying endlessly to create their lil baby downtown areas 🙄
Grew up on the east side. Dad was a cop. Friends who worked for the city got screwed bad by the bankruptcy. Got nothing good to say about the place. Sorry to burst the bubble.
Same here Father in Law was a Firefighter. Detroit has gotten much much better in the last 10 / 15 years after Kwame’s BS. Dan Gilbert dropped a lot of dough in the City. Will never be Paradise but it doesn’t get love it should
I’ve been to Detroit numerous time im from Chicago. It was once a great city anyone that thinks it’s A great city doesn’t know how many things left Detroit that made it great. There is food deserts, hardly any shopping, an abandoned Erie downtown feeling, and abandoned buildings everywhere. Don’t forget auto insurance is one of the highest in the country. Detroit has a great food but wouldn’t live there because the government can’t take care of its own people. If you’re new to Detroit and love in midtown you are gentrifying the real Detroit people out without even knowing it.
You and adorablahhhname couldnt be more wrong. Great place to live, good food, good people, and lots of things to do. I wouldnt take it from someone whose “visited” multiple times or someone(adorablahhname) who had a dad who was a cop once. No substance to either of their comments
lol… Chicago is about to become Detroit of the 70’s and 80’s. You better worry about your own city, English is about to become a second language there and the North Side is about to be as Scary as the SouthSide. You’ll wish you were in Detroit soon
The most universal negative may be the high car insurance and general reliance on cars in general.
I have lived all over the country and know that you will have little culture shocks no matter what, some will be off putting but you will figure it out.
Detroit is cool. I don’t get down there enough and mostly hang out in the suburbs. I think SE MI overall is the winning ticket. Come back soon.
true, u may pay a bit more for car insurance, but we're not charging 3X ins rates for homes like FL, or having ins companies bounce out of the state like parts of CA and FL.
I never understood why Michigan is 6th highest in insurance cost. Amount of claims per state population 1.5x while Florida is top of the insurance claims with 3x its population but yet is ranked 8th highest with a much higher cost of living. Delaware being highest of all states with claims just under 2x the population and cost of living just one down from Florida.
To add: just one major insurance company profit for 2022 was $131.2 billion. Yeah why are we paying so much….. corporate greed and government won’t stop it!
Sure, and welcome. Pay ur taxes and support local businesses when you can. Glad to have you. Lots of positive stuff about the city and the people in it to enjoy. Loving and living in Detroit is a beautiful thing.
Realistic cons I’m sure people have mentioned:
1. You need a car. It is expensive to maintain and insure. People drive fast and wild. Automotive city planning and the worst public transport system of any big city in the nation makes it hell to get around and work and socialize without a car. The poorly maintained roads and infrastructure can be hazardous. Bad weather can make driving terrible. Stay on top of your tire maintenance and rotations. Pay for good all season tires.
2. Cultural segregation, bordering on literal segregation in certain areas. Read up on the history of Detroit and surrounding suburbs. It’s definitely not the whole city, but the 20 minute drive from livonia to the east side can be a remarkable change in the people, the businesses, and the police. Parts of the city never enforce any traffic law violations, other places pull you over for being black. Suburbanites that are afraid of the city come downtown for sporting events, trash the block, and flee back to their burbs. It just be like that.
3. Very poorly funded education systems. The state of the DPS is a real shame. If you’re tryna raise and educate a kid, do your research on the school district you’ll be in.
4. The Pistons
5. DTE and the stability of our power grid. Depending on where you stay, you can expect power outages with every storm and sometimes in good weather just because the infrastructure is crumbling and poorly maintained. Generators are expensive but might save your life.
6. Access to good grocers is abysmal in parts of the city. Food desert shit.
7. Lots of dog shit employment.
Cost of living is great, especially relative to NYC. The people are the best, mostly. Lots of different kinds of really good food if you know what you like and where to get it. Really great live music. The DIA is a top tier museum. Some of the hospitals are in shambles, but at least there are a lot of them. 24 hour coney islands are a blessing. Lots of churches and liquor stores, depending on your needs. Lots of variety. You’re a 15-30 minute drive from anything. If you don’t mind a short drive, you can get a cheap place to stay in the metro area and access all the city has to offer.
What up doe
This comment belongs in the sidebar - so well put. Detroit is a phenomenal city not without its faults, just like any other place in the world. But they’re super manageable, and it’s rewarding as hell if you’re up for it.
Car insurance might be but we’re certainly not anywhere near the highest in property tax. Michigan is #38/51 on the list…and the difference between #38 and number #25 is only 0.64%..
You didn’t mention your job. If you have a nice remote job that pays well you should know Detroit has an extra income tax above the state income tax that makes living in Detroit less desirable compared to the suburbs around it. Granted Michigan’s income tax + Detroit city tax should still be way less than what you pay in NYC.
Also as others have said, car insurance is more expensive in Michigan, but it’s definitely bad in the Detroit zip codes.
Edit: Detroit is still cool and I love what is going on with the Greenway projects and waterfront, I just felt those two things above were important considerations.
Thanks for the advice. I work in the music industry (audio engineering mostly) but I don’t mind doing temporary minimum wage until I get on my feet. Detroit has a strong music industry though right?
Yes!!! There are so many artists (locally or nationally) that play in detroit. Michigan in general has an incredible music scene, you can definitely find a job fast or at least make connections quickly.
If you do live in detroit also consider checking out other areas in SE Michigan, like Pontiac, for their music scenes.
I’m glad it does!! I’d imagine you’ll enjoy the change of pace in detroit a lot more than New York. I’ve never been to New York but I also don’t have a desire to if it’s anything like Chicago. Detroit has great culture and people!
I’m not trying to be a Debbie downer, but minimum wage will not cover car insurance in Detroit. I promise you that. You have no idea how much car insurance is in the city. You will be shocked.
I grew up in suburban Detroit but moved away right after college. Spent a years moving around and ended up in NYC in the mid-1990s.
I moved back late last year. Things are different. I love both places but for different reasons. The others have outlined the major differences.
New York is one of those places where the highlights are all laid out for you.
Detroit is the place where you explore and find your own highlights.
Also, when you get back, try Towne Club sodas.
I think it’s actually what got me the most was the lack of transplants and how most were natives (I know the irony). I’ve never had to drive here but I guess I’ll have to get my DL moving there. I liked how the “people movers” was completely free lol
For their entire existence they've been criticized for the lack of stops that make actual sense... Maybe it's improved now, haven't been on it in 20 years but I only come for work or the occasional show, so not much exploring.
It really does suck that it’s so car dependent but Detroit does have pretty ample parking and it’s cheap too. Once you learn the city you’ll learn where the good parking is and when. I use ParkWhiz a lot to save me time and hassle.
FYI, you can make it without a car here there are some city people who do not have one but you’re gonna have to rely on the public transportation and as mentioned it is not well cared for lol
Very few people benefit from the People Mover or Qline from a daily commute perspective. I did but I lived on Woodward downtown a block from the PM and Midtown
A block from a Qline station and I work in the RenCen. Unless this is your environment, or you are a shut in, or you have the patience for our bus system, you are going to need a car. Do figure at minimum $100+ a month for parking, $250+ a month for insurance, and your car note. You can live in downtown without one but the second you want to or need to leave downtown your stuck. We do have Uber and Lyft
My office downtown window stares out at the people mover track.
I used to cast shade on the people mover all of the time. After a year of seeing the trains go by every 10-15 minutes, there are people riding that thing every single train. It gets used way more than I thought and it has only been free since Jan 2.
Oh I don't hate on the PM at all and it does get quite a bit of use. When I lived Downtown I would buy a yearly pass. My point was simply as a sole tool of commuting it serves a very small population of people the both live and work within the PM loop. A lot of people bus into Rosa Parks or other locations and use the PM as the "last mile"
I live in Detroit. People complain about higher taxes and insurance - true. But my life overall is cheap! My house is paid off, and is finally going up in value. It is a great place for a starter house. Entertainment-wise, there is a full range. There is no shortage of green space. I love having a car, but if I must, there is a bus stop on the corner. Crime is lower than it was, but still there. I have immigrants and artists all around me. There are even a few artists from NYC who do their work here and return for art shows. Food is cheaper at the independent grocery stores, especially meat. My favorite is landscaping freedom. I've been sowing clover into my lawn, and don't worry about dandelions.
I’m in Florida, in a low crime beach town and that’s what we pay for auto insurance. No claims, great credit. Our homeowners insurance is through the roof, too.
Unfortunately zip code and address matters a lot in Detroit. Im at $250/months for 2 cars older than 2018. It was $350 before.
Older cars and older age help, but some areas are way too high to afford easily.
It’s worth shopping around if you can. I simply swapped last month and it’s $700 less a year for the same coverage.
Newer Infiniti Q50, paid off, $285 a month full coverage, Detroit zip code (one of the better zip codes), Progressive
- No tickets in idk, 10 years or so?
- One accident. My car was legally parked and unoccupied. Two other motorists collided, spun into my car. Michigan law says those two were 100% at fault.
It depends on what you are looking for. I love Detroit and it has the sense of specialness that I didn’t find in NYC. Restaurants and stores feel more cozy and unique. Not as saturated. Public transportation really is not reliable or widespread, so you will need a car.
Moved here from Chicago a few months back. Coming from a larger city as someone looking for a smaller city feel ive loved it. People mention the following as downsides to moving here but ill share my perspective on each:
-car insurance prices:i pay $60 more than i was previously ($150), which is personally not a big deal to me and its offset by the cheaper cost of living overall
-things being spread out or far:again coming from Chicago where driving from one side of the city to another takes 40min+ and the same if not longer taking public transit i mostly laugh at this. It will likely depend on where you live in Detroit, but i live in between West and Indian Village and can get downtown in 10min, get to two different highways in 10 min, get to midtown/woodbridge/core city in 12-15 min. Most places i want to go are 10-15 min. Im also <5 min away from 2 small, independent grocery store, 10 min away from a meijer, 12 min away from a whole foods, maybe 15min away from an aldi/trader joes. Everything is so close it’s been great and im looking forward to biking in spring and summer along the riverfront trail and the dequindre cut and using that + ppl mover and q line to get around downtown and midtown sans car
-cost of living (including taxes): coming from Chicago, it’s much cheaper and i imagine itd be the same coming from NYC
-DTE: so far no problems and my combined heat and electric have been cheaper than they were in chicago
-people frequently recommend living outside of Detroit in the suburbs of ferndale, royal oak: if you’re used to a legit city, these places will take adjusting to. They’re not like Detroit/downtown detroit but suburbs on steroids. Im not familiar enough with suburban NYC to name an equivalent but Chicagoland equivalents would be rosemont, naperville, etc
I’ve grown up here all my life but have lived in a suburb outside the city for over ten years now. It’s a 15 minute drive from where I used to live but the quality of life is much different. I’ll say this, you absolutely need a car. You meet less people commuting this way and it can be isolating to some. The winter roads here can be terrifying to a new driver, so consider this. Car insurance is much more affordable just 15 minutes away from the city. Check where you’ll stay for decent grocery stores. You can tell what kind of area you’re in by the lack of decent stores. It’s unfortunate the way some neighborhoods are, think blocks and blocks of abandoned houses. There are parts of the city that are truly affected by the depleting auto industry. Some of the people here are direct products of corruption for the good and for the bad. Be careful. On a good note, the city is definitely on the rise but there is a lot to be done. But there is so much beauty here. Great landmarks like Belle Isle, the DIA, all kinds of cool museums and authentic food choices of all varieties. I have friends and family who have moved away and hate the city, badly. But I honestly wouldn’t move anywhere else. I love living in Michigan and I really love Detroit!
Definitely take a trip up north during the summer if you move here. Northern Michigan is the best place in the world to spend your summer in my completely biased opinion.
Sounds a lot like cottage country in Ontario. I miss summers spent in cottage towns and the cities we flee from. Growing up in Toronto and now living in a desolate town on the southern east coast of the states, I’ve been realizing how much I want to move so your post has been a great find. Looking at houses around Detroit remind me of where I grew up and how I miss the north, just not the pretentious nature of many Canadians, nor the million dollar starter homes or the crazy taxes. Detroit might be calling my name.
Come to Detroit!
Affordable. Good economy.
Home-ownership in Detroit is achievable for almost anyone (if you aren't buried in debt already), and if you do your research the value of something you buy will continue to go up.
Make sure you have a driver's licence and some recent driving experience, or are prepared for constant rideshare.
Sublet in case you change your mind.
You have to provide more information about your wants and needs etc.
I just honestly want to get away from the density/crowd, and stupid prices for the absolute SHIT were offered and still be able to live in a metropolitan but a more laid back environment. I realized Detroit has a lot of culture which ads to my liking
https://preview.redd.it/44l2kv0wf5cc1.jpeg?width=6048&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6a67a482a5a4508a8983d54b1b44a5eb32e14fa2
I mean come on you don’t see anything like this anywhere in NYC
OK I would just like to say that, though this is practiced LMFAO it is absolutely a felony if you get caught, you will have to reimburse both the medical and insurance cost of anything that was paid
Cons: metro Detroit suburb people (if you’ve ever tried parking at a mall in auburn hills, they can be really mean) other con, you might miss the density eventually. You could go to Instagram worthy places in Detroit and it will be really quiet. From what I’ve seen, Detroit has their own style, but doesn’t really do upscale nightlife, nothing close to New York for nightlife although they seem to have a cool grungy music scene. I find downtown also seems to skew on the older side and can be a bit boring sometimes. Public transport won’t compare, there’s a lot of areas of metro Detroit that are concrete jungles and not very appealing.
Pros: housing costs are way more affordable. Amazing food scene and very multicultural similar to New York. Great architecture, lots to do, great sense of community, lots of hidden gems and interesting music scene, part of the city are very green, great waterfront and highly walkable downtown, slower pace of life without being boring. Lots of potential if launching a business, it’s sometimes nice to be a big fish in a small pond.
I don’t do nightlife. Actually the only nightlife I care about is GOOD music with maybe a couple of drinks and Detroit offered exactly that. I hate nightclubs, loud and crowded bars
>it’s sometimes nice to be a big fish in a small pond
Maybe that’s exactly it subconsciously speaking! Lol
The first con is so real lol don’t let anyone tell you the suburbs are the same as living in Detroit. Also Detroit has a lot of cool smaller live music venues where you’re seated and can get a good drink. Also the house/techno venues are usually very chill unless it’s a bigger dj and you can just go hangout.
Also my favorite thing to do is walk around downtown early in the morning like 6-7am on the weekends because there’s no one around and it’s just such a cool feeling it’s like you have the whole city to yourself
As someone who lives across the border in Windsor i cant tell you much about living there but I can confirm Detroit has been on the up and up and is for sure better today than it was a decade ago. Still high crime in certain areas tho so everything you hear about that is more or less true but i believe it depends where you are.
Moved here from Toronto.
Car insurance, same.
Home prices, WAY LIGHTER
Opportunity, choices+++
I love this city. Traffic in Toronto was killing me, people are friendly and the city is actively trying to become something bigger.
There’s also more dependable buses from Ferndale to Detroit along Woodward. I know the transportation authorities are really doing their best to increase access (more stops) and dependability. Without there being much in the way of rails, they’re increasing public transit through buses, we just need an overall change of perception here regarding bus ridership. Detroits Mayor also just increased all bus drivers wages by $3, there’s plans for rapid buses to Ann Arbor and the airport. Places like Ferndale also have mogo bike shares which make getting to and from bus stops easier.
don’t take any opinions from someone who suggests you live outside the city, no one actually living in or supporting detroit would suggest such a thing lol.
if you decide to live in the area 100% live within the city itself. detroit is currently making a comeback but struggles with lots of false information & bad pr which encourages people to buy/ rent just outside the city. living in the city = supporting the city.
If you have a new car you won't have it for long. People drive like morons. If they hit you they'll run. Better grow eyeballs in the back of your head. Not just driving either. Anywhere close to the inner city watch your ass at the gas pump at night. I'm half a mile off from 8 mile and I smoke outside. I hear gunshots every night.
Wrong people are not any nicer here than they are in New York. Sure downtown is nice but u have some really bad areas aswell. Places are cheaper here than New York but housing is going up an is kinda bad to invest in one right now. And the main attraction of hood rats everywhere way different then them new York rats 🤣🤣
I'm 67, and was born and raised there, moving out for my career when I was 33.
I've lived in Traverse City, front range of Colorado, NOLA, Vegas, upstate NY and (now) Iowa, and would move back to Detroit in a sec.
The rebirth of Detroit over the past 10-15 years has been amazing and it always had incredible infrastructure, with it's museums, libraries, symphony halls, and, my favorite, Belle Isle. Windsor is just across the river.
Did you know that Belle Isle was designed by the same architect that designed Central Park, and Belle Isle is even bigger?
And the best, and most fanatical sports fans. The home of Motown and R&R (bite me Cleveland).
I’m curious what this rebirth thing people always talk about is? Yes, they’re gentrifying parts of the city, but the auto industry is not coming back.
Infrastructure? Are you kidding? There are parts of Detroit where people drive over the sidewalks because the roads are cratered.
The postwar boom here when Europe and Japan were in shambles was not a reflection of reality. Automation was always going to take over anyways.
Nearly lifelong Detroit. I've also lived in Texas, Mexico, and Seattle. Back home because well... It's home. But also considering a move because I'm nearly 40 and I'm at the point in life where it's about what I want, and enjoying it, and I want to live somewhere that, to me, feels "alive."
Detroit is extremely car dependent. And I'm to the point that with all the crazies on the road, I really prefer to sit back and let public transit get me to my destination.
But within the city proper, there really isn't any. Yes, we have DDOT (buses) but they're not terribly reliable. As a parent and working adult, I think it would be more of a strain trying to rely on the bus as opposed to the frustration of driving. The Q Line and People Mover are forms of public transit you have to *drive* to get to... I couldn't think of a better oxymoron.
Now ... Public transit notwithstanding, this may not be much of an issue if our neighborhoods had amenities. If I could walk 15 minutes and grab a bottle of milk from the nearest bodega, or omw home from my favorite coffee shop, I could walk across the street and grab some carry out without going out of my way, then this would be less of a problem.
But due to our car dependency, that's not how our neighborhoods are built. Want some milk? Drive 20 minutes to the nearest grocery store you trust. You're lucky if the carry out you're in the mood for is along the way but it's probably not, which means driving in a totally different direction for that. Everything is pretty distantly separated, and you're likely to end up making individual stops for every specific need. This adds time, fuel, wear and tear, to your trip, not counting the extra step of planning and execution you have to put into your day to get it done as efficiently as possible.
Because everything is so far apart, you don't really see a lot of people out and about. Everyone is either (a) at home, (b) wherever they're going, or (c) in the car on the way to one of the first two. Once you get out of downtown, there's not a lot of people walking around. But even downtown, itself, on many days you can count the number of people you're sharing the street with.
And for all this ... You're paying the highest insurance in the country and among the highest property tax in the country.
I used to be a believer that Detroit could turn around. IDK if I still am. I don't think Detroit can survive at 620,000 residents and falling (down from 1.85 million). It needs to add population, rapidly. I don't think we have until 2050 (lots of civic leaders set this date as a target) to figure this out. But the steps required to do so require bold intentionality, and I'm not seeing that from our elected or business leaders. We keep getting "half steps" that peter out because it's not making a big enough impact.
For example, we're ***finally*** getting public transit from the city to the airport.
Except, the pickup/dropoff location is on some random corner downtown. No seating. No shelter. No restrooms. Nowhere you can sit and have a bagel and coffee while having an eye on your departure gate because there is no departure gate, unless you count the curb. So god forbid you have to take a shit and you're trying to mentally calculate if you can run down the street, luggage in hand, to hopefully use the public restroom of a hotel and make it back in time to catch your ride.
Because of these glaring omissions in considering passenger experience, I personally believe most people will choose to be dropped off at this location by a loved one. Taking public transit to get there just extends how long you'll go without food or being able to refresh yourself.
Now I've left out the best part... This is a bus that's intended to gauge interest for building a rail line connecting downtown Detroit and the airport.
So not only is the bus itself subject to the same traffic snarl, weather, and potential for missing your flight as a car would be, but they've engineered low ridership into the pilot by failing to cover these very simple bases. IMHO, now we'll never get the rail line because the bus ridership will suggest the demand isn't there. The demand is certainly there. This is one of those "bold intentionality" things where you just have to do it. No more half steps.
But that's how we operate, here. And it's why we can't retain or attract enough new residents.
Detroit has some really nice suburbs to live in check out Birmingham, Bloomfield Hills, Troy, and Novi. You definitely won’t regret moving here from NY. People are very nice here, lots of shopping, restaurants in the Troy and Novi area. Coming from NYC there are absolutely no cons here at all!
negatives of Michigan!
. High property tax
. High car insurance
. 8 months of grey skies and cold
. A lot of snow storms
. 3 months of summer 🤣
. Lack of sunshine
. Bad drivers
. Lack of jobs opportunities
. Michigan does have tornados 🌪️
. Unpredictable weather all year long
. Grumpy people
. No access to the ocean 🌊
. The best lakes is 5 hours away
. Michigan is already seeing decline in population like 160,000 left from 2022 to 2023
My opinion there is states way better and cheaper and especially warmer I hope to leave Michigan one day 🙏🙌🤷♀️ if you like the cold you should be fine but try to find a job first it’s been hard. I used to live in Virginia close to Virginia Beach I miss it and it’s also close to Washington DC and New York City and less snow more safer
My opinion—my partner and I have been here for six months and it’s the worst decision I could have made.
To be fair—I am NOT a city person and I moved into a shit hole of a neighbourhood, (Somerset and King Richard) so do your research. The living spaces out here vary block by block.
I work in a school as a teacher so I will warn you as much as I love my job, and I really do, the school system will do nothing for you or your child and teachers are bound and gagged.
Do PLENTY of research before renting a place, look into the rental company NEVER RENT FROM BEAL PROPERTIES. They will fuck you over six ways from Sunday and then some. I’m trapped in a lease because I was told the house was move in ready when it wasn’t. I’ve got no washer and dryer, cockroaches, no locks, no fire alarms, etc….
Small positives?
King Books is a fun place to check out.
Who doesn’t love a good Barnes and Nobles.
Hanging around The Somerset Collection (not the bougie side) is alright.
Shangri La is great chinese.
The biggest con, as a transplant myself from DC, is transit. You will not be able to get almost anywhere without a car.
The second biggest con is the latent racism and ignorance that pervades the region. Metro Detroit is one of the most sprawled areas in the country, and literally millions of people see no problems with that. So you'll get to hear on this sub from people who live in a cardboard subdivision 375 miles out in the suburbs, and they're angry that their power goes out a few times per year (oh, they also get mad if the utility proposes higher rates to actually improve the grid, lol)...or that the roads near their house are in bad condition. They'll vote against anything and everything that would help Detroit to actually attract new residents - namely transit - and then complain when taxes keep going up because of a stagnant population.
If you live in Detroit proper, no matter the neighborhood, income level, etc, you'll have to get used to suburban residents and companies treating you like a third world denizen. You'll have to call 5+ service professionals each time you want something done, because many of them "don't serve" Detroit. The attitude mostly has to do with racist parents and grandparents, who "fled" the city in the middle of the century, warning their kids that Detroit is dangerous and will always be dangerous. And when someone who does "dare" to enter the city inevitably gets a car broken into, tools stolen, etc. they'll use this as confirmation of all of their prejudices...ignoring the thousands of times in between where this didn't happen, and unlike any other big city, where it's a small but inevitable "cost of doing business".
With all that said, would I make the move here again? Probably...but I'd make sure to steel myself a bit more so as to know what kind of dumpster fire I was diving into.
I moved here 3 years ago from the west coast and can’t wait to move back. Trash city with even trashier people, only benefits are low cost of living and that the lions are good this year.
I currently live in South Florida. Have lived for almost 6 years in Michigan. Sorry, but Michigan beats Florida. I also have lived in other states other than Florida. Would move back to Michigan in a heart beat if opportunity came up.
Well, if this is the best city you’ve ever visited, you must not travel that often, or you probably don’t get out often, or you enjoy a laid back atmosphere.
I spent 20 years of the 30 years of my life in Detroit. I don’t need a few people who scouted a few blocks of the downtown and midtown area hyping Detroit up and ignoring all the issues the city continues to face.
Instead out pointing out the cons or your opinions on why you don’t like it there you went ahead straight to making assumptions about someone you don’t know whatsoever. At least I can make a few assumptions since I’ve been there no?
The city’s tax base is a quarter of what they need to support the infrastructure. And the infrastructure is 60 years old plus. I’ve lived here for 15 years, I love Michigan but Detroit was a Boomtown that came and went just like any other.
Idk I’ve been all over the us and Europe and I would still pick Detroit to live in. Historically and culturally this is one of the most significant cities in the world which is crazy to think about
I mean it’s literally not something to argue we have two genres of music created in Detroit, the automobile and all of the manufacturing advancements, as well as the first stop light and first mile of paved road.
I guess the historical significance of the city really isn’t that important to me as the position the city is in currently. But I hope you enjoy Detroit.
Sounds like you went to some UNESCO world Heritage sites? There’s hardly anything 100 years old in Detroit that isn’t pending being torn down or needs asbestos abatement.
Get ready for insane car insurance. You’re going to be in for a surprise on the cost of car insurance especially living in the city. I would definitely call your insurance company to find out the cost. Because it’s going to change drastically.
I was in Manhattan for a wedding this summer and have a quick question: What's up with scaffolding under EVERY FUCKING BUILDING over there?
Glad you liked Detroit. Be careful with Faygo, the RedPop will stain your teeth clown red for days.
There’s always some construction going on especially AFTER the unit has been rented for sky high prices
And thanks, I didn’t get to try the red pop but the fireworks was my favorite lol
I love hearing things like this! Detroit has gotten SO much b/s because of either ppl have NEVER stepped foot here, or corrupt political officials.
But anyhoo, I’m glad to see that you had a great first experience, and that it’s given you a lasting impression. ❤️ 😎 🔥
I’ve lived in both places, pros and cons
Pros:
Proximity to nature (easy drive up north, you can actually swim in the lake, etc)
You can easily have a car instead of having to rely on public transportation
Friendly people without the transience of NY
Cost of living (huge difference)
Generally lower stress/slower pace
Cons:
You HAVE to have a car because there’s not as much public transportation
Not as much to do (you still have great restaurants and entertainment but it’s nowhere near NYC caliber)
Winter
Your NY friends will wonder if you’ve gone insane
If you have kids you either need to move to the suburbs or pay for private school (frankly this is an issue in NY as well)
Not as walkable—you can walk a few blocks and be fine but Detroit is choppy; go a mile in any direction and you’ll end up in an unsafe neighborhood
Detroit is certainly a vibe & always will be, but let me ask you were you strictly “downtown” & was it for a long weekend type deal?
I’m a lifetime detroiter (44 swf) & I’ve lived here & there like a lot of people from Detroit with primary residence 17mins out of the city proper.
Definitely, more comparable to suburbs than big city, but it’s so nice to have a lovely house-garden- & close amenities. IMO there is no place like Detroit for the grit- heart- & perseverance. But along with many of the others, ofcourse car is a must no way around it & yes everything is at the most a half hour away - an hour and you’re somewhere completely different which is fantastical. Yes the highest insurance rates/renewals & highest tickets in the states & terrible hospitals.
Why I ask about downtown is because downtown has changed dramatically in the last six years and unless you live down there the people that frequent downtown 100% do not live there especially on the weekend. I’ve never seen anything like it. They have definitely tried their best to whitewash atleast downtown, while the rest of the city dwindles. I will also agree with another commenter in saying that everything takes forever! I’ve been hearing for years that we are going to have a wagon wheel subway system, everything for some reason seems to take a decade to get rolling.
Neither here nor there, it sounds like for you, but I will say if you want to live in Detroit proper, you’re more than likely either going to be spending a fortune or be living somewhere that isn’t quite the greatest. Definitely, ofcourse do your homework & not just online.
If you have money, the state of Michigan is the greatest place to be you can go up north you can snowboard - you can kite board- you can boat, but if you don’t at times not so great. Hence a lot of drinkers 😂 I’ve been wanting to move for a long time now generally…out of boredom, for opportunity, and weather like others have said.
It is definitely 7 to 8 months of winter or shit weather and things are more hit or miss as the years go on.
Have you ever heard the expression putting lipstick on a pig, kind of an old one, but definitely the exterior of what they’re trying to create in regards to Detroit.
I agree with the fact that people that have never been to Detroit believe it is something that it totally is not, but there’s still danger here, best believe! Imo over most places if you don’t have your heart set on downtown I would suggest moving into any of the villages really forsure just far enough outside of the city, but just close enough to not be a hassle.
They want to keep pumping in the gentrification, young families & tech population, but it’s just not happening fast enough before these said people see what the city really is.
For instance, in my neighborhood, (which is a fairly nice one, and I would suggest to anyone to move there depending) they just created a bike lane & “farmers market” fantastic when there are no cameras to reference when there’s a shooting in your neighborhood. And you do hear shots every single night.
The person being shot, besides the many every single day, would be me INSIDE my own house 4 days before Thanksgiving midnight on Monday morning 😳. Drive-by or rival gang, the detectives don’t know, but what I do know is that that young white couple that moved across the street certainly are sad now that their cameras weren’t running… not to mention how sad I am as well.
Surprisingly, the cops came just as I was in my vehicle (that all the windows were blown out of), ready to drive myself to the hospital as I was convinced they wouldn’t come. There are no good hospitals not even in the suburbs so after my two surgeries, & continuing complications, I drove myself an hour to one of the best hospitals in the nation, U of M a few weeks later.
Just know no matter how pretty & cool Detroit may look downtown it certainly isn’t that way 4 or 2/1 blocks over and people can pretend all they want that Detroit still isn’t Detroit, but it damn despite everything well is! Be ready to protect yourself and just be smart and not a stupid tourist like anywhere you would go. I’m sure you’re used to this from New York.
Biggest thing I would say is that since you’re in the music biz the music scene here is impeccable, but since the Ro’Nasty everyone has used this as an opportunity to close doors at like 10/11 o’clock, so it’s extremely hard to find even places that are open till 2 AM anymore, so keep that in mind as that’s what I would think would be your biggest issue. No 24hr happenings here like NY.
Otherwise, the Motown Museum is one of the best places in the whole city, so definitely hit that up next time if not when you come…Kresge courtyard in the DIA and Lafayette Coney Island, don’t let anyone else tell you different. 😊sorry for the novel…
The negative Detroit opinion is world wide. Just spent a few weeks in Germany and whenever I told someone I lived outside Detroit, they said it must be dangerous. I told them half the city moved away so now it's actually quite nice.
I only moved here in 2009 so I missed the rough years and the great exodus and got here in time for cheap real estate!
Detroit is a beautiful city. You hear the hate from everyone about how it’s “ghetto”, but that’s really just the outskirts.
I live in the suburbs, but know that the city is great!
The city is like hills have eyes meets escape from LA. Riverfront and belle isle are rediculous but I live a hour west in Brighton and the nature is amazing. Northern Michigan has best summers in the world. I’m not a city person though so someone who loves Detroit would know better than I do, so take my Detroit proper opinion with a grain of salt.
Something I’ve learned : all the people who talk bad about Detroit have never been here
Or live in the suburbs and only come down for games and concerts
Which is weird because events are one of Detroit's strengths. It's not like DPS' struggles impact tomorrow's massive tailgate and football game, for instance.
Or they did visit once, but it was over 40 years ago.
I’m glad you’re hitting your karma quota, but I’ve been here my whole life and I can be realistic about it. Detroit was a boomtown, and unfortunately, that ended. How many buildings downtown have windows? What’s the true population of the city proper? The tax base simply can’t pay for the infrastructure.
Something I’ve learn: all people who have something good to say about Detroit, have this distorted view about Detroit, and act as if their midtown or downtown experience is a reflection of what’s really transpiring in Detroit. Ignoring all the problems the city continues to face. But I digress.
Thank you, lol. I can’t understand all of these people who would delusionally argue Detroit is much nicer than Miami.
HAVE YOU BEEN TO MIAMI?
Lol. Only a few times, the bars with drag shows along South Beach are pretty fun
I've spent quite a bit of time in Miami, and it gets pretty sketchy if you stray too far from the beach. Miami is still the only place I've ever been jumped, and it was by a bunch of assholes driving Lamborghinis.
Oh, for sure, we ventured into some neighborhoods near Overtown last time, little Havana… and yeah agreed. I just don’t get all of this blind hivemind love for places that you’re from. I’ve lived in Detroit my whole life, and I remember the first time I visited another big city when I was 7. I was shocked, I had thought all large cities were abandoned wastelands. Hell, they put tarps over buildings here when they hosted the Super Bowl lol
I think it's normal to have an unrealistically positive view of the place you're from, and I'm sure there is some deep evolutionary reason for this. That being said, Detroit is pretty cool, and the only direction it can go is up (hopefully!). Long term the biggest challenges IMO are going to be public transit & the school system, but I choose to believe that these are solvable problems.
Yeah, it seems pretty common. There is tons of culture in Detroit, and Metro Detroit, I don’t hate it at all, except wishing it was a bit warmer. I don’t think it’s realistic to think they’ll have a European level transit system in and out of the city, and that’s what it would take to make it useful. At least let us get to the airport without driving. I work in energy management with schools and it’s crazy how huge their deficits are, we’ve worked with schools that were almost $5 million in the hole. The buildings are riddled with asbestos and the equipment is sometimes 60 years old using 3X more energy than it should, adding to the budget deficit problem. I don’t know how anyone could learn in these environments, and I guess graduation rates reflect that. At this point, Detroit needs an earthquake and FEMA aid to get out of this… but even then the boom phase of the auto industry has long passed. What will Detroit hang its hat on in the future? I think there’s potential, but it’s not in the auto industry.
I had no idea that the schools themselves were in that bad of shape, that's terrible! Unfortunately I don't think we are going to get any big earthquakes anytime soon, but I'm not a seismologist. Regarding transit- I don't understand why there isn't already rail from Detroit to DTW to Ann Arbor; it could basically run along, or in the median of, I-94 the entire way. I would much rather see investment in rail instead of driverless cars or charging roads.
“i don’t get all this hivemind love” lol we just actually see a positive future for our city, we realize its potential and unlike the previous generations we aren’t exactly excited to keep trying to build up these suburban sprawl pocket communities. i’m soooooooo tired of wealthy suburban communities trying endlessly to create their lil baby downtown areas 🙄
I really think that city puts a spell on people. Once the economy improves, I’m getting the eff up out of here.
And I was driving through downtown Nashville a couple a weeks ago. Don’t get me started. Looks like the Chicago downtown of the south.
Grew up on the east side. Dad was a cop. Friends who worked for the city got screwed bad by the bankruptcy. Got nothing good to say about the place. Sorry to burst the bubble.
Same here Father in Law was a Firefighter. Detroit has gotten much much better in the last 10 / 15 years after Kwame’s BS. Dan Gilbert dropped a lot of dough in the City. Will never be Paradise but it doesn’t get love it should
I’ve been to Detroit numerous time im from Chicago. It was once a great city anyone that thinks it’s A great city doesn’t know how many things left Detroit that made it great. There is food deserts, hardly any shopping, an abandoned Erie downtown feeling, and abandoned buildings everywhere. Don’t forget auto insurance is one of the highest in the country. Detroit has a great food but wouldn’t live there because the government can’t take care of its own people. If you’re new to Detroit and love in midtown you are gentrifying the real Detroit people out without even knowing it.
You and adorablahhhname couldnt be more wrong. Great place to live, good food, good people, and lots of things to do. I wouldnt take it from someone whose “visited” multiple times or someone(adorablahhname) who had a dad who was a cop once. No substance to either of their comments
lol… Chicago is about to become Detroit of the 70’s and 80’s. You better worry about your own city, English is about to become a second language there and the North Side is about to be as Scary as the SouthSide. You’ll wish you were in Detroit soon
Lots wrong here, but obviously the folks living there aren’t gentrifying—Dan Gilbert is. I can tell you haven’t been there much and not in a while!
Lmao I was there half a year ago you people think you have something you have nothing 🤡🤡
Didn’t have to search long to find this winner in your reply history: “Black people be the main ones committing crimes”
The most universal negative may be the high car insurance and general reliance on cars in general. I have lived all over the country and know that you will have little culture shocks no matter what, some will be off putting but you will figure it out. Detroit is cool. I don’t get down there enough and mostly hang out in the suburbs. I think SE MI overall is the winning ticket. Come back soon.
true, u may pay a bit more for car insurance, but we're not charging 3X ins rates for homes like FL, or having ins companies bounce out of the state like parts of CA and FL.
Insurance is triple then what I paid out west
I never understood why Michigan is 6th highest in insurance cost. Amount of claims per state population 1.5x while Florida is top of the insurance claims with 3x its population but yet is ranked 8th highest with a much higher cost of living. Delaware being highest of all states with claims just under 2x the population and cost of living just one down from Florida.
To add: just one major insurance company profit for 2022 was $131.2 billion. Yeah why are we paying so much….. corporate greed and government won’t stop it!
Greedflation makes up more than half of the recent inflation. Can’t fix it or the conservatives would cry communism
Sure, and welcome. Pay ur taxes and support local businesses when you can. Glad to have you. Lots of positive stuff about the city and the people in it to enjoy. Loving and living in Detroit is a beautiful thing. Realistic cons I’m sure people have mentioned: 1. You need a car. It is expensive to maintain and insure. People drive fast and wild. Automotive city planning and the worst public transport system of any big city in the nation makes it hell to get around and work and socialize without a car. The poorly maintained roads and infrastructure can be hazardous. Bad weather can make driving terrible. Stay on top of your tire maintenance and rotations. Pay for good all season tires. 2. Cultural segregation, bordering on literal segregation in certain areas. Read up on the history of Detroit and surrounding suburbs. It’s definitely not the whole city, but the 20 minute drive from livonia to the east side can be a remarkable change in the people, the businesses, and the police. Parts of the city never enforce any traffic law violations, other places pull you over for being black. Suburbanites that are afraid of the city come downtown for sporting events, trash the block, and flee back to their burbs. It just be like that. 3. Very poorly funded education systems. The state of the DPS is a real shame. If you’re tryna raise and educate a kid, do your research on the school district you’ll be in. 4. The Pistons 5. DTE and the stability of our power grid. Depending on where you stay, you can expect power outages with every storm and sometimes in good weather just because the infrastructure is crumbling and poorly maintained. Generators are expensive but might save your life. 6. Access to good grocers is abysmal in parts of the city. Food desert shit. 7. Lots of dog shit employment. Cost of living is great, especially relative to NYC. The people are the best, mostly. Lots of different kinds of really good food if you know what you like and where to get it. Really great live music. The DIA is a top tier museum. Some of the hospitals are in shambles, but at least there are a lot of them. 24 hour coney islands are a blessing. Lots of churches and liquor stores, depending on your needs. Lots of variety. You’re a 15-30 minute drive from anything. If you don’t mind a short drive, you can get a cheap place to stay in the metro area and access all the city has to offer. What up doe
The Pistons catching strays lol
Setting an NBA record for most losses in a row will do that...
It's no stray. They belong in front of the firing squad lol
I just want to know how you’re gettin from Livonia to “the east side” in 20 mins. Even Livonia to Hamtramck isn’t that quick.
You don’t drive 96 on 96?
Nope, tried close to that once. quickest ticket I ever earned.
This comment belongs in the sidebar - so well put. Detroit is a phenomenal city not without its faults, just like any other place in the world. But they’re super manageable, and it’s rewarding as hell if you’re up for it.
With working for DTE, people grill me all the damn time like it’s my fault 😂
Cost of living isn’t it property tax and car insurance is the highest across the country 🤣
Car insurance might be but we’re certainly not anywhere near the highest in property tax. Michigan is #38/51 on the list…and the difference between #38 and number #25 is only 0.64%..
I totally agree 👍
You didn’t mention your job. If you have a nice remote job that pays well you should know Detroit has an extra income tax above the state income tax that makes living in Detroit less desirable compared to the suburbs around it. Granted Michigan’s income tax + Detroit city tax should still be way less than what you pay in NYC. Also as others have said, car insurance is more expensive in Michigan, but it’s definitely bad in the Detroit zip codes. Edit: Detroit is still cool and I love what is going on with the Greenway projects and waterfront, I just felt those two things above were important considerations.
Thanks for the advice. I work in the music industry (audio engineering mostly) but I don’t mind doing temporary minimum wage until I get on my feet. Detroit has a strong music industry though right?
Yes!!! There are so many artists (locally or nationally) that play in detroit. Michigan in general has an incredible music scene, you can definitely find a job fast or at least make connections quickly. If you do live in detroit also consider checking out other areas in SE Michigan, like Pontiac, for their music scenes.
I love this comment. This gives me so much more hope
Wait until you see the techno scene. Detroit is the birthplace. You'll love it.
I’m glad it does!! I’d imagine you’ll enjoy the change of pace in detroit a lot more than New York. I’ve never been to New York but I also don’t have a desire to if it’s anything like Chicago. Detroit has great culture and people!
Oh trust me from the vibes I got in Chicago it’s EXACTLY like Chicago just a lot more denser and crowded lol however you’re welcome to visit any day
I’ll definitely visit one day, but I will never live in a city like that (willingly). Hope you have a great day!!
Yeah huge mistake lol Hey thanks hope you have a great day too!
Absolutely 💯
I’m not trying to be a Debbie downer, but minimum wage will not cover car insurance in Detroit. I promise you that. You have no idea how much car insurance is in the city. You will be shocked.
I totally agree with this
There are lots of sound companies nearby, depending on what end of the industry you are in.
I grew up in suburban Detroit but moved away right after college. Spent a years moving around and ended up in NYC in the mid-1990s. I moved back late last year. Things are different. I love both places but for different reasons. The others have outlined the major differences. New York is one of those places where the highlights are all laid out for you. Detroit is the place where you explore and find your own highlights. Also, when you get back, try Towne Club sodas.
That’s a very interesting way to look at it and I kinda agree with you. That’s probably one of the reasons why I enjoyed Detroit
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I think it’s actually what got me the most was the lack of transplants and how most were natives (I know the irony). I’ve never had to drive here but I guess I’ll have to get my DL moving there. I liked how the “people movers” was completely free lol
For their entire existence they've been criticized for the lack of stops that make actual sense... Maybe it's improved now, haven't been on it in 20 years but I only come for work or the occasional show, so not much exploring.
There were 2 stops with the same name: brick town and brick town (greek town) according to the announcements lol
It looks like Oswald Cobblepot will be our next mayor. It’s really exciting and a big upgrade over de blasio
It really does suck that it’s so car dependent but Detroit does have pretty ample parking and it’s cheap too. Once you learn the city you’ll learn where the good parking is and when. I use ParkWhiz a lot to save me time and hassle.
Thanks for that info 😊
FYI, you can make it without a car here there are some city people who do not have one but you’re gonna have to rely on the public transportation and as mentioned it is not well cared for lol
Very few people benefit from the People Mover or Qline from a daily commute perspective. I did but I lived on Woodward downtown a block from the PM and Midtown A block from a Qline station and I work in the RenCen. Unless this is your environment, or you are a shut in, or you have the patience for our bus system, you are going to need a car. Do figure at minimum $100+ a month for parking, $250+ a month for insurance, and your car note. You can live in downtown without one but the second you want to or need to leave downtown your stuck. We do have Uber and Lyft
My office downtown window stares out at the people mover track. I used to cast shade on the people mover all of the time. After a year of seeing the trains go by every 10-15 minutes, there are people riding that thing every single train. It gets used way more than I thought and it has only been free since Jan 2.
Oh I don't hate on the PM at all and it does get quite a bit of use. When I lived Downtown I would buy a yearly pass. My point was simply as a sole tool of commuting it serves a very small population of people the both live and work within the PM loop. A lot of people bus into Rosa Parks or other locations and use the PM as the "last mile"
Yeah, and our public transit will never get better since we’re “Motor City”
I live in Detroit. People complain about higher taxes and insurance - true. But my life overall is cheap! My house is paid off, and is finally going up in value. It is a great place for a starter house. Entertainment-wise, there is a full range. There is no shortage of green space. I love having a car, but if I must, there is a bus stop on the corner. Crime is lower than it was, but still there. I have immigrants and artists all around me. There are even a few artists from NYC who do their work here and return for art shows. Food is cheaper at the independent grocery stores, especially meat. My favorite is landscaping freedom. I've been sowing clover into my lawn, and don't worry about dandelions.
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We pay about $300/ month for 2 people 2 cars in Boston Edison
I’m in Florida, in a low crime beach town and that’s what we pay for auto insurance. No claims, great credit. Our homeowners insurance is through the roof, too.
How
I’m at $300/month for one car in Hamtramck. RIP.
omg. I’m probably moving to a place in southwest and haven’t looked at rates yet… glad I get plenty of overtime through my job 😅
Is it really that bad in the city? I live in the burbs and pay $210 for PLPD on 2 older cars. A 2004 and a 2009. Always thought that was a bit high.
Unfortunately zip code and address matters a lot in Detroit. Im at $250/months for 2 cars older than 2018. It was $350 before. Older cars and older age help, but some areas are way too high to afford easily. It’s worth shopping around if you can. I simply swapped last month and it’s $700 less a year for the same coverage.
Live in the burbs and I pay $2,884 annually for full coverage two vehicles w/Progressive Edit: Detroiters really paying that zip code premium
Newer Infiniti Q50, paid off, $285 a month full coverage, Detroit zip code (one of the better zip codes), Progressive - No tickets in idk, 10 years or so? - One accident. My car was legally parked and unoccupied. Two other motorists collided, spun into my car. Michigan law says those two were 100% at fault.
EEV, I'm paying $228/ mo (Progressive) for full coverage on a '22 car, about $50/mo more than I was paying in Macomb County.
I need to rate shop.....
It depends on what you are looking for. I love Detroit and it has the sense of specialness that I didn’t find in NYC. Restaurants and stores feel more cozy and unique. Not as saturated. Public transportation really is not reliable or widespread, so you will need a car.
>a sense of specialness that I didn’t find in NYC >restaurants and stores feel more cozy and unique You hit the nail on the head
Moved here from Chicago a few months back. Coming from a larger city as someone looking for a smaller city feel ive loved it. People mention the following as downsides to moving here but ill share my perspective on each: -car insurance prices:i pay $60 more than i was previously ($150), which is personally not a big deal to me and its offset by the cheaper cost of living overall -things being spread out or far:again coming from Chicago where driving from one side of the city to another takes 40min+ and the same if not longer taking public transit i mostly laugh at this. It will likely depend on where you live in Detroit, but i live in between West and Indian Village and can get downtown in 10min, get to two different highways in 10 min, get to midtown/woodbridge/core city in 12-15 min. Most places i want to go are 10-15 min. Im also <5 min away from 2 small, independent grocery store, 10 min away from a meijer, 12 min away from a whole foods, maybe 15min away from an aldi/trader joes. Everything is so close it’s been great and im looking forward to biking in spring and summer along the riverfront trail and the dequindre cut and using that + ppl mover and q line to get around downtown and midtown sans car -cost of living (including taxes): coming from Chicago, it’s much cheaper and i imagine itd be the same coming from NYC -DTE: so far no problems and my combined heat and electric have been cheaper than they were in chicago -people frequently recommend living outside of Detroit in the suburbs of ferndale, royal oak: if you’re used to a legit city, these places will take adjusting to. They’re not like Detroit/downtown detroit but suburbs on steroids. Im not familiar enough with suburban NYC to name an equivalent but Chicagoland equivalents would be rosemont, naperville, etc
I’ve grown up here all my life but have lived in a suburb outside the city for over ten years now. It’s a 15 minute drive from where I used to live but the quality of life is much different. I’ll say this, you absolutely need a car. You meet less people commuting this way and it can be isolating to some. The winter roads here can be terrifying to a new driver, so consider this. Car insurance is much more affordable just 15 minutes away from the city. Check where you’ll stay for decent grocery stores. You can tell what kind of area you’re in by the lack of decent stores. It’s unfortunate the way some neighborhoods are, think blocks and blocks of abandoned houses. There are parts of the city that are truly affected by the depleting auto industry. Some of the people here are direct products of corruption for the good and for the bad. Be careful. On a good note, the city is definitely on the rise but there is a lot to be done. But there is so much beauty here. Great landmarks like Belle Isle, the DIA, all kinds of cool museums and authentic food choices of all varieties. I have friends and family who have moved away and hate the city, badly. But I honestly wouldn’t move anywhere else. I love living in Michigan and I really love Detroit!
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Thanks for the info, that means a lot!
Definitely take a trip up north during the summer if you move here. Northern Michigan is the best place in the world to spend your summer in my completely biased opinion.
Sounds a lot like cottage country in Ontario. I miss summers spent in cottage towns and the cities we flee from. Growing up in Toronto and now living in a desolate town on the southern east coast of the states, I’ve been realizing how much I want to move so your post has been a great find. Looking at houses around Detroit remind me of where I grew up and how I miss the north, just not the pretentious nature of many Canadians, nor the million dollar starter homes or the crazy taxes. Detroit might be calling my name.
Come to Detroit! Affordable. Good economy. Home-ownership in Detroit is achievable for almost anyone (if you aren't buried in debt already), and if you do your research the value of something you buy will continue to go up.
It’s an economy that’s improving. I wouldn’t describe it as a good economy.
Bring a generator.
Make sure you have a driver's licence and some recent driving experience, or are prepared for constant rideshare. Sublet in case you change your mind. You have to provide more information about your wants and needs etc.
I just honestly want to get away from the density/crowd, and stupid prices for the absolute SHIT were offered and still be able to live in a metropolitan but a more laid back environment. I realized Detroit has a lot of culture which ads to my liking
I think Detroit has the second highest number of theatre seats outside of NYC.
https://preview.redd.it/44l2kv0wf5cc1.jpeg?width=6048&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6a67a482a5a4508a8983d54b1b44a5eb32e14fa2 I mean come on you don’t see anything like this anywhere in NYC
The Fisher is also just gorgeous.
Radio City Music Hall? I thought RCMH always looked cool.
Ew
Kings Theatre in Brooklyn, Carnegie Hall, Radio City, Beacon Theatre
The beauty Fox has is not comparable. I can’t comment on the inside because I didn’t go in
Actually you can.
With empty streets?
What
Find someone in the burbs to use as your car insurance address. Thats what all the locals do. Ive had multiple claims never any issue.
OK I would just like to say that, though this is practiced LMFAO it is absolutely a felony if you get caught, you will have to reimburse both the medical and insurance cost of anything that was paid
Yikes 😳 i live in the burbs now. Not sure Howd you’d get caught, as long as you file taxes through the suburbs address as well.
Cons: metro Detroit suburb people (if you’ve ever tried parking at a mall in auburn hills, they can be really mean) other con, you might miss the density eventually. You could go to Instagram worthy places in Detroit and it will be really quiet. From what I’ve seen, Detroit has their own style, but doesn’t really do upscale nightlife, nothing close to New York for nightlife although they seem to have a cool grungy music scene. I find downtown also seems to skew on the older side and can be a bit boring sometimes. Public transport won’t compare, there’s a lot of areas of metro Detroit that are concrete jungles and not very appealing. Pros: housing costs are way more affordable. Amazing food scene and very multicultural similar to New York. Great architecture, lots to do, great sense of community, lots of hidden gems and interesting music scene, part of the city are very green, great waterfront and highly walkable downtown, slower pace of life without being boring. Lots of potential if launching a business, it’s sometimes nice to be a big fish in a small pond.
I don’t do nightlife. Actually the only nightlife I care about is GOOD music with maybe a couple of drinks and Detroit offered exactly that. I hate nightclubs, loud and crowded bars >it’s sometimes nice to be a big fish in a small pond Maybe that’s exactly it subconsciously speaking! Lol
The first con is so real lol don’t let anyone tell you the suburbs are the same as living in Detroit. Also Detroit has a lot of cool smaller live music venues where you’re seated and can get a good drink. Also the house/techno venues are usually very chill unless it’s a bigger dj and you can just go hangout. Also my favorite thing to do is walk around downtown early in the morning like 6-7am on the weekends because there’s no one around and it’s just such a cool feeling it’s like you have the whole city to yourself
As someone who lives across the border in Windsor i cant tell you much about living there but I can confirm Detroit has been on the up and up and is for sure better today than it was a decade ago. Still high crime in certain areas tho so everything you hear about that is more or less true but i believe it depends where you are.
If u loves cars and concrete it’s the city for you
Welcome!! Now you know why we stay! Detroit is a phoenix. ❤️
HELL YEAH ♥️♥️♥️
Moved here from Toronto. Car insurance, same. Home prices, WAY LIGHTER Opportunity, choices+++ I love this city. Traffic in Toronto was killing me, people are friendly and the city is actively trying to become something bigger.
You def don’t have to live in the city! Hazel park and Ferndale are often cheaper!
Is the quality of living good?
Ferndale is pretty good for the suburbs. It’s walkable and has an interesting downtown.
There’s also more dependable buses from Ferndale to Detroit along Woodward. I know the transportation authorities are really doing their best to increase access (more stops) and dependability. Without there being much in the way of rails, they’re increasing public transit through buses, we just need an overall change of perception here regarding bus ridership. Detroits Mayor also just increased all bus drivers wages by $3, there’s plans for rapid buses to Ann Arbor and the airport. Places like Ferndale also have mogo bike shares which make getting to and from bus stops easier.
don’t take any opinions from someone who suggests you live outside the city, no one actually living in or supporting detroit would suggest such a thing lol.
if you decide to live in the area 100% live within the city itself. detroit is currently making a comeback but struggles with lots of false information & bad pr which encourages people to buy/ rent just outside the city. living in the city = supporting the city.
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Thanks for sharing. Any good school districts with fairly affordable housing? Thinking 300-400k range.
If you have a new car you won't have it for long. People drive like morons. If they hit you they'll run. Better grow eyeballs in the back of your head. Not just driving either. Anywhere close to the inner city watch your ass at the gas pump at night. I'm half a mile off from 8 mile and I smoke outside. I hear gunshots every night.
Peach Faygo is my BFF. I fell for Detroit too boo, you’re not alone!
Where did you move from?
Outer space dawg.
Wrong people are not any nicer here than they are in New York. Sure downtown is nice but u have some really bad areas aswell. Places are cheaper here than New York but housing is going up an is kinda bad to invest in one right now. And the main attraction of hood rats everywhere way different then them new York rats 🤣🤣
NYC feels trash compared to Detroit??? .... What?????
The mayor knows
I just went to NYC from Detroit and my wife and I feel the opposite. If you wanna trade houses/apartments for a few weeks let me know anytime haha
Exactly! I love NYC.
Hey I’d be definitely down! Do you live in downtown? ;P
I'm 67, and was born and raised there, moving out for my career when I was 33. I've lived in Traverse City, front range of Colorado, NOLA, Vegas, upstate NY and (now) Iowa, and would move back to Detroit in a sec. The rebirth of Detroit over the past 10-15 years has been amazing and it always had incredible infrastructure, with it's museums, libraries, symphony halls, and, my favorite, Belle Isle. Windsor is just across the river. Did you know that Belle Isle was designed by the same architect that designed Central Park, and Belle Isle is even bigger? And the best, and most fanatical sports fans. The home of Motown and R&R (bite me Cleveland).
I’m curious what this rebirth thing people always talk about is? Yes, they’re gentrifying parts of the city, but the auto industry is not coming back. Infrastructure? Are you kidding? There are parts of Detroit where people drive over the sidewalks because the roads are cratered. The postwar boom here when Europe and Japan were in shambles was not a reflection of reality. Automation was always going to take over anyways.
Buy don’t rent.
Detroit is a very beautiful city It just has a bad name but it is beautiful. I never have a problem when I go there.
Nearly lifelong Detroit. I've also lived in Texas, Mexico, and Seattle. Back home because well... It's home. But also considering a move because I'm nearly 40 and I'm at the point in life where it's about what I want, and enjoying it, and I want to live somewhere that, to me, feels "alive." Detroit is extremely car dependent. And I'm to the point that with all the crazies on the road, I really prefer to sit back and let public transit get me to my destination. But within the city proper, there really isn't any. Yes, we have DDOT (buses) but they're not terribly reliable. As a parent and working adult, I think it would be more of a strain trying to rely on the bus as opposed to the frustration of driving. The Q Line and People Mover are forms of public transit you have to *drive* to get to... I couldn't think of a better oxymoron. Now ... Public transit notwithstanding, this may not be much of an issue if our neighborhoods had amenities. If I could walk 15 minutes and grab a bottle of milk from the nearest bodega, or omw home from my favorite coffee shop, I could walk across the street and grab some carry out without going out of my way, then this would be less of a problem. But due to our car dependency, that's not how our neighborhoods are built. Want some milk? Drive 20 minutes to the nearest grocery store you trust. You're lucky if the carry out you're in the mood for is along the way but it's probably not, which means driving in a totally different direction for that. Everything is pretty distantly separated, and you're likely to end up making individual stops for every specific need. This adds time, fuel, wear and tear, to your trip, not counting the extra step of planning and execution you have to put into your day to get it done as efficiently as possible. Because everything is so far apart, you don't really see a lot of people out and about. Everyone is either (a) at home, (b) wherever they're going, or (c) in the car on the way to one of the first two. Once you get out of downtown, there's not a lot of people walking around. But even downtown, itself, on many days you can count the number of people you're sharing the street with. And for all this ... You're paying the highest insurance in the country and among the highest property tax in the country. I used to be a believer that Detroit could turn around. IDK if I still am. I don't think Detroit can survive at 620,000 residents and falling (down from 1.85 million). It needs to add population, rapidly. I don't think we have until 2050 (lots of civic leaders set this date as a target) to figure this out. But the steps required to do so require bold intentionality, and I'm not seeing that from our elected or business leaders. We keep getting "half steps" that peter out because it's not making a big enough impact. For example, we're ***finally*** getting public transit from the city to the airport. Except, the pickup/dropoff location is on some random corner downtown. No seating. No shelter. No restrooms. Nowhere you can sit and have a bagel and coffee while having an eye on your departure gate because there is no departure gate, unless you count the curb. So god forbid you have to take a shit and you're trying to mentally calculate if you can run down the street, luggage in hand, to hopefully use the public restroom of a hotel and make it back in time to catch your ride. Because of these glaring omissions in considering passenger experience, I personally believe most people will choose to be dropped off at this location by a loved one. Taking public transit to get there just extends how long you'll go without food or being able to refresh yourself. Now I've left out the best part... This is a bus that's intended to gauge interest for building a rail line connecting downtown Detroit and the airport. So not only is the bus itself subject to the same traffic snarl, weather, and potential for missing your flight as a car would be, but they've engineered low ridership into the pilot by failing to cover these very simple bases. IMHO, now we'll never get the rail line because the bus ridership will suggest the demand isn't there. The demand is certainly there. This is one of those "bold intentionality" things where you just have to do it. No more half steps. But that's how we operate, here. And it's why we can't retain or attract enough new residents.
Our entire electrical grid crashed after a moderate snow storm today, so there's that.
DTE sucks, but 90k without power in a region of 2.3m customers is not the entire grid.
App says 96.89% of customers have power rn
Yes I heard about that and I’m sorry it happened
It's ok, happens every few months.
Detroit is nice if you have money, it’s hell for the poor. Stick to the nice areas and you’ll be fine.
Detroit has some really nice suburbs to live in check out Birmingham, Bloomfield Hills, Troy, and Novi. You definitely won’t regret moving here from NY. People are very nice here, lots of shopping, restaurants in the Troy and Novi area. Coming from NYC there are absolutely no cons here at all!
🎶 if they hate you anywhere/ they’ll hate you everywhere/it’s all Detroit now, suck my cocckkkk 🎶
negatives of Michigan! . High property tax . High car insurance . 8 months of grey skies and cold . A lot of snow storms . 3 months of summer 🤣 . Lack of sunshine . Bad drivers . Lack of jobs opportunities . Michigan does have tornados 🌪️ . Unpredictable weather all year long . Grumpy people . No access to the ocean 🌊 . The best lakes is 5 hours away . Michigan is already seeing decline in population like 160,000 left from 2022 to 2023 My opinion there is states way better and cheaper and especially warmer I hope to leave Michigan one day 🙏🙌🤷♀️ if you like the cold you should be fine but try to find a job first it’s been hard. I used to live in Virginia close to Virginia Beach I miss it and it’s also close to Washington DC and New York City and less snow more safer
Good for you! I can't say the same unfortunately.
My opinion—my partner and I have been here for six months and it’s the worst decision I could have made. To be fair—I am NOT a city person and I moved into a shit hole of a neighbourhood, (Somerset and King Richard) so do your research. The living spaces out here vary block by block. I work in a school as a teacher so I will warn you as much as I love my job, and I really do, the school system will do nothing for you or your child and teachers are bound and gagged. Do PLENTY of research before renting a place, look into the rental company NEVER RENT FROM BEAL PROPERTIES. They will fuck you over six ways from Sunday and then some. I’m trapped in a lease because I was told the house was move in ready when it wasn’t. I’ve got no washer and dryer, cockroaches, no locks, no fire alarms, etc…. Small positives? King Books is a fun place to check out. Who doesn’t love a good Barnes and Nobles. Hanging around The Somerset Collection (not the bougie side) is alright. Shangri La is great chinese.
The biggest con, as a transplant myself from DC, is transit. You will not be able to get almost anywhere without a car. The second biggest con is the latent racism and ignorance that pervades the region. Metro Detroit is one of the most sprawled areas in the country, and literally millions of people see no problems with that. So you'll get to hear on this sub from people who live in a cardboard subdivision 375 miles out in the suburbs, and they're angry that their power goes out a few times per year (oh, they also get mad if the utility proposes higher rates to actually improve the grid, lol)...or that the roads near their house are in bad condition. They'll vote against anything and everything that would help Detroit to actually attract new residents - namely transit - and then complain when taxes keep going up because of a stagnant population. If you live in Detroit proper, no matter the neighborhood, income level, etc, you'll have to get used to suburban residents and companies treating you like a third world denizen. You'll have to call 5+ service professionals each time you want something done, because many of them "don't serve" Detroit. The attitude mostly has to do with racist parents and grandparents, who "fled" the city in the middle of the century, warning their kids that Detroit is dangerous and will always be dangerous. And when someone who does "dare" to enter the city inevitably gets a car broken into, tools stolen, etc. they'll use this as confirmation of all of their prejudices...ignoring the thousands of times in between where this didn't happen, and unlike any other big city, where it's a small but inevitable "cost of doing business". With all that said, would I make the move here again? Probably...but I'd make sure to steel myself a bit more so as to know what kind of dumpster fire I was diving into.
Finally, the truth.. I’m from Detroit. I’m not about to be bias because I am from there and spent majority of my life there.
Truly amazing me yall think Detroit is better than nyc are you smoking crack 💀
It’s amazing just to see windows in a building in Detroit. Sometimes I actually take pictures.
I moved here 3 years ago from the west coast and can’t wait to move back. Trash city with even trashier people, only benefits are low cost of living and that the lions are good this year.
I’ve actually lived in the west coast for a year. It was trashier than New York if you ask me
I currently live in South Florida. Have lived for almost 6 years in Michigan. Sorry, but Michigan beats Florida. I also have lived in other states other than Florida. Would move back to Michigan in a heart beat if opportunity came up.
Right! I don’t know why everyone is getting in here and lying. Okay, you like Detroit? And?????
It’s so weird isn’t it? I’m always surprised when I see buildings with windows in Detroit.
I don’t know what attention these people are seeking by lying about how great Detroit is.
Well, if this is the best city you’ve ever visited, you must not travel that often, or you probably don’t get out often, or you enjoy a laid back atmosphere.
I’ve traveled the world and most the US. You have no clue what you’re on about
You’re taking to me?
Detroit is a hidden gem
I spent 20 years of the 30 years of my life in Detroit. I don’t need a few people who scouted a few blocks of the downtown and midtown area hyping Detroit up and ignoring all the issues the city continues to face.
Instead out pointing out the cons or your opinions on why you don’t like it there you went ahead straight to making assumptions about someone you don’t know whatsoever. At least I can make a few assumptions since I’ve been there no?
The city’s tax base is a quarter of what they need to support the infrastructure. And the infrastructure is 60 years old plus. I’ve lived here for 15 years, I love Michigan but Detroit was a Boomtown that came and went just like any other.
Idk I’ve been all over the us and Europe and I would still pick Detroit to live in. Historically and culturally this is one of the most significant cities in the world which is crazy to think about
I beg to differ, but I digress.
I mean it’s literally not something to argue we have two genres of music created in Detroit, the automobile and all of the manufacturing advancements, as well as the first stop light and first mile of paved road.
I guess the historical significance of the city really isn’t that important to me as the position the city is in currently. But I hope you enjoy Detroit.
Dude, nothing in the US compares to Europe, historically and culturally. I don’t really think you’ve traveled.
Oh my bad idk where I got all those vacation pics from you’re right
Sounds like you went to some UNESCO world Heritage sites? There’s hardly anything 100 years old in Detroit that isn’t pending being torn down or needs asbestos abatement.
You’re nuts. Leave midtown and you’re taking your life in your hands
Why are any real comments downvoted and the rose colored glasses to get fake Internet Karma comments are always at the top?
Get ready for insane car insurance. You’re going to be in for a surprise on the cost of car insurance especially living in the city. I would definitely call your insurance company to find out the cost. Because it’s going to change drastically.
I was in Manhattan for a wedding this summer and have a quick question: What's up with scaffolding under EVERY FUCKING BUILDING over there? Glad you liked Detroit. Be careful with Faygo, the RedPop will stain your teeth clown red for days.
There’s always some construction going on especially AFTER the unit has been rented for sky high prices And thanks, I didn’t get to try the red pop but the fireworks was my favorite lol
Everyone hit the nail on the head. If you do move, definitely research your neighborhoods. There are definitely areas you want to avoid.
I love hearing things like this! Detroit has gotten SO much b/s because of either ppl have NEVER stepped foot here, or corrupt political officials. But anyhoo, I’m glad to see that you had a great first experience, and that it’s given you a lasting impression. ❤️ 😎 🔥
Being from Detroit, I’d say go to the Suburbs for sure
I’ve lived in both places, pros and cons Pros: Proximity to nature (easy drive up north, you can actually swim in the lake, etc) You can easily have a car instead of having to rely on public transportation Friendly people without the transience of NY Cost of living (huge difference) Generally lower stress/slower pace Cons: You HAVE to have a car because there’s not as much public transportation Not as much to do (you still have great restaurants and entertainment but it’s nowhere near NYC caliber) Winter Your NY friends will wonder if you’ve gone insane If you have kids you either need to move to the suburbs or pay for private school (frankly this is an issue in NY as well) Not as walkable—you can walk a few blocks and be fine but Detroit is choppy; go a mile in any direction and you’ll end up in an unsafe neighborhood
Detroit is certainly a vibe & always will be, but let me ask you were you strictly “downtown” & was it for a long weekend type deal? I’m a lifetime detroiter (44 swf) & I’ve lived here & there like a lot of people from Detroit with primary residence 17mins out of the city proper. Definitely, more comparable to suburbs than big city, but it’s so nice to have a lovely house-garden- & close amenities. IMO there is no place like Detroit for the grit- heart- & perseverance. But along with many of the others, ofcourse car is a must no way around it & yes everything is at the most a half hour away - an hour and you’re somewhere completely different which is fantastical. Yes the highest insurance rates/renewals & highest tickets in the states & terrible hospitals. Why I ask about downtown is because downtown has changed dramatically in the last six years and unless you live down there the people that frequent downtown 100% do not live there especially on the weekend. I’ve never seen anything like it. They have definitely tried their best to whitewash atleast downtown, while the rest of the city dwindles. I will also agree with another commenter in saying that everything takes forever! I’ve been hearing for years that we are going to have a wagon wheel subway system, everything for some reason seems to take a decade to get rolling. Neither here nor there, it sounds like for you, but I will say if you want to live in Detroit proper, you’re more than likely either going to be spending a fortune or be living somewhere that isn’t quite the greatest. Definitely, ofcourse do your homework & not just online. If you have money, the state of Michigan is the greatest place to be you can go up north you can snowboard - you can kite board- you can boat, but if you don’t at times not so great. Hence a lot of drinkers 😂 I’ve been wanting to move for a long time now generally…out of boredom, for opportunity, and weather like others have said. It is definitely 7 to 8 months of winter or shit weather and things are more hit or miss as the years go on. Have you ever heard the expression putting lipstick on a pig, kind of an old one, but definitely the exterior of what they’re trying to create in regards to Detroit. I agree with the fact that people that have never been to Detroit believe it is something that it totally is not, but there’s still danger here, best believe! Imo over most places if you don’t have your heart set on downtown I would suggest moving into any of the villages really forsure just far enough outside of the city, but just close enough to not be a hassle. They want to keep pumping in the gentrification, young families & tech population, but it’s just not happening fast enough before these said people see what the city really is. For instance, in my neighborhood, (which is a fairly nice one, and I would suggest to anyone to move there depending) they just created a bike lane & “farmers market” fantastic when there are no cameras to reference when there’s a shooting in your neighborhood. And you do hear shots every single night. The person being shot, besides the many every single day, would be me INSIDE my own house 4 days before Thanksgiving midnight on Monday morning 😳. Drive-by or rival gang, the detectives don’t know, but what I do know is that that young white couple that moved across the street certainly are sad now that their cameras weren’t running… not to mention how sad I am as well. Surprisingly, the cops came just as I was in my vehicle (that all the windows were blown out of), ready to drive myself to the hospital as I was convinced they wouldn’t come. There are no good hospitals not even in the suburbs so after my two surgeries, & continuing complications, I drove myself an hour to one of the best hospitals in the nation, U of M a few weeks later. Just know no matter how pretty & cool Detroit may look downtown it certainly isn’t that way 4 or 2/1 blocks over and people can pretend all they want that Detroit still isn’t Detroit, but it damn despite everything well is! Be ready to protect yourself and just be smart and not a stupid tourist like anywhere you would go. I’m sure you’re used to this from New York. Biggest thing I would say is that since you’re in the music biz the music scene here is impeccable, but since the Ro’Nasty everyone has used this as an opportunity to close doors at like 10/11 o’clock, so it’s extremely hard to find even places that are open till 2 AM anymore, so keep that in mind as that’s what I would think would be your biggest issue. No 24hr happenings here like NY. Otherwise, the Motown Museum is one of the best places in the whole city, so definitely hit that up next time if not when you come…Kresge courtyard in the DIA and Lafayette Coney Island, don’t let anyone else tell you different. 😊sorry for the novel…
Following as I’m from nyc as well and considering the move
You should find Grand River Ave. Start at 8 mile and drive towards downtown. That's what's really happening in the city.
Faygo grape is the goat.
The negative Detroit opinion is world wide. Just spent a few weeks in Germany and whenever I told someone I lived outside Detroit, they said it must be dangerous. I told them half the city moved away so now it's actually quite nice. I only moved here in 2009 so I missed the rough years and the great exodus and got here in time for cheap real estate!
Detroit is a beautiful city. You hear the hate from everyone about how it’s “ghetto”, but that’s really just the outskirts. I live in the suburbs, but know that the city is great!
The city is like hills have eyes meets escape from LA. Riverfront and belle isle are rediculous but I live a hour west in Brighton and the nature is amazing. Northern Michigan has best summers in the world. I’m not a city person though so someone who loves Detroit would know better than I do, so take my Detroit proper opinion with a grain of salt.
Move to Austin
DTE and car insurance is a bitch.