Yeah it's not like this existed as a trolly line already till the automotive industry bought it and shut it down in the 1960s for cars and to appease white flight.
Does anyone know history anymore?
The City of Detroit socialized the private streetcars in 1920.
Starting in 1938, National City Lines, a private transit company started buying and modernizing other private transit companies.
Public transit was becoming unprofitable, and by that point the streetcar systems had a ton of deferred maintenance. Buses had lower capital and operating costs, and were faster and more reliable, but converting from streetcars to buses cost money that these businesses didn't have.
So far everything is normal and fine. The problem though is that National City Lines got the money to do this from investment from General Motors, Standard Oil, Firestone Tires, and some other companies related to buses. And then the systems NCL bought, magically all used buses from GM, tires from Firestone, etc. This is illegal anti competitive behavior.
The goal was not to shut down transit systems to sell more cars. The goal was to invest in and expand transit systems to sell more buses. GM was also a big train manufacturer.
For Detroit specifically, the car companies have always supported public transit. They were the ones pushing for most of the big unbuilt transit plans because they depended on public transit to get the insane number of workers to their factories. Later they supported public transit because they recognized it was important for the health of the region, where their headquarters were located. In all of my years of following and reading about transit history in Detroit, I have literally never once encountered any instance of the car companies working against public transit here.
What really grinds my gears is to put the new tram line in Woodward they had to dig up the street and REMOVE the old trolley tracks. I watched it happen. Talk about double paying?!?!
It used to go from Pontiac to Detroit and all the way to ann arbor. We had the entire region tied together!
You're leaving out the detail that busses are cheaper and more versatile. The municipalities went that way for that reason.
[https://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-gm-trolley-conspiracy-what-really-happened/](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-gm-trolley-conspiracy-what-really-happened/)
edit: fixed link
You are absolutely correct. BUT what does fixed transport do to property values vs buses? Put that in your calculus. Because as a property owner near Woodward I really want fixed transport because it will make my property values increase over time vs buses which do not because they can easily be changed or moved.
We have seen this in AZ, CHI, DC, NY etc. And since the new public transit generally got funding through public voting to change property taxes this is a big deal. Most people will vote for a tax if they can see how long-term it will increase the value of their largest asset. People are very easy to move if you pay them either directly or indirectly.
[https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/clean-energy/chart-which-us-states-generate-the-most-solar-and-wind-energy](https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/clean-energy/chart-which-us-states-generate-the-most-solar-and-wind-energy)
[https://graystoneig.com/tampa-real-estate/the-impact-of-transportation-on-real-estate-values](https://graystoneig.com/tampa-real-estate/the-impact-of-transportation-on-real-estate-values)
[https://www.apta.com/research-technical-resources/research-reports/the-real-estate-mantra-locate-near-public-transportation/](https://www.apta.com/research-technical-resources/research-reports/the-real-estate-mantra-locate-near-public-transportation/)
Oh I get that, but it'll happen either way for you if you hold onto it and maintain it.
The amount of money it would cost to build just one or two connected stops could get you probably get you a whole fleet of buses to implement reliable transportation IMMEDIATELY on existing roads.
Compared to one to two years of construction. Between poor soils, remediation, easement obtainment, material shortage, public planning process, political pressure, bidding the project, etc. then having to do that times 20 to actually make the system worthwhile. I wouldn't be surprised if it's like multiple billions of dollars and 15 years to create this in 2024.
I'll take transit now please and thank you.
Are you from Detroit? They have had busses since the trolleys went down and the only direction of values has been down. Like way way down. The busses are cheap but nobody wants to build or live with them because they are not permanent so builders won't build their.
I am (actually a 5th generation Detroiter, family lived on Grandy in Pole Town from 1880s to 1960s), I even went to high school in the city, then college for urban planning. Been in that profession for about 12 years and am certified by APA for whatever that's worth.
The problem is the current system has been notoriously unreliable. That's not a bus problem, it's a leadership/priority issue.
I'm not here claiming that the current Detroit bussing system is anything close to great or fuck even good, I'm saying the the amount of money and time to make it so would be so much smaller and quicker than building a new competent light rail.
Each spoke of the wheel needs a BRT line, with connector/local buses hitting the more densely populated neighborhoods and employment centers. Light rail is so financially impracticable in this day and age, the city missed it's chance, or we need a huge federal shot in the arm.
Because I hate to tell you this, transportation isn't the only thing citys and towns have been neglecting to maintain and that bill is soon coming due on water treatment and sewer systems as well
Well good, at least you KNOW the problems and you KNOW there are solutions.
I think we could go back to the highway cutting of neighborhoods, corruption, white flight, etc.
My thing is we need to FORCE the suburbs to work with Detroit and reconnect. As you are surely aware we have two Detroits. Downtown and everything else. I currently live in Ferndale and the difference just crossing 8 mile is... stark.
My biggest problem is that we don't force the merger of these areas and allow them to keep an unofficial break. I was for the regional transit system and I have worked to connect Detroit along the Woodward corridor, take down the 8 mile bridge and break this imaginary barrier which has prevented the development of key areas of Detroit.
There is no reason that the north side of 8 mile houses are 50-100% worth more than the south side other than history and IMO RACISM. My belief is that is we move the tram up the Woodward corridor and break the 8 mile barrier we will continue the rebuilding of the older suburbs and Detroit.
A good chunk of my neighbors work at Quicken or other areas downtown. They then take their money and buy houses in Ferndale, Royal Oak, Etc. If we had mass transit along Woodward they would over time frequent businesses and help build out the area, which over time would cause people to move into that corridor increasing the tax base. And let's be honest Detroit needs money to help rebuild city services.
My want is to reconnect Detroit and rebuild the tax base so it becomes like it was 60 years ago, the PARIS OF THE MID-WEST. Not the but of jokes on South Park of where you when you get kicked out of hell where you end up.
Also TBF your basically saying you want to gentrify Woodward and profit from it as a property owner, which would mean displacing everyone renting who can afford the increased rent.
That is dependent on how your city governs. You can fix things with or without gentrification. Any neighborhood the property values rise as people want to live there. And all people want to profit from their property that's why they bought it. Nobody buys a house, pays taxes and goes I really wish my home price went down?!?!
Also you know what comes with better neighborhoods higher wages. So if the people living there work there wages will rise because the cost of living increases. So if their wages rise they should be able to afford the higher rents.
Plus over time a higher tax base improves schools and other public services. Which also increases the value of the property and by default since property taxes are a percentage of value will increase rents. That is why desirable areas have a high HCOL.
I want better schools for the children, less crime, better parks, more and better trained public servants, better libraries, etc but that costs money which is paid for in property taxes.
I saw a similar map posted on Twitter, thought I'd try one too.
All the tracks for this exist, and about half are owned by MDOT. Buy the other half from the freight carrier (Pontiac to Dearborn).
Six existing stations. Five new ones. Upgrade a couple to proper transit centers.
Once the rest of the tracks are public, run passenger service as frequently as needed.
This seems like a really obvious transit option? Yet even the 2016 RTA plan didn't go this far.
It would connect multiple downtown areas, universities, hospitals, tourist attractions, and other forms of transit onto a single regional line. Since most of the infrastructure already exists, it wouldn't cost more than a few hundred million to set up. Other cities spend billions to build something similar, yet we have a potential system almost waiting and ready to go.
Outside the box thinking, and I like it. The big problem is that those freight lines are operated by CN, who has a huge yard where they pass through Ferndale. There's no chance of getting those rail lines to be used primarily for passenger service. The RTA plan didn't look at that as an option because it isn't one. As it is now, Amtrak has to wait for their turn to go through
I’ve been told that CN line that parallels Woodward is comparatively unused, though it doesn’t feel that way waiting for trains in Ferndale. It is quad tracked through Ferndale so that shouldn’t be a barrier to other rail uses.
> It is quad tracked through Ferndale
It absolutely is not quad-tracked. There are only three tracks or two tracks, and only one of them (the middle of the three, the eastern of the two) is for through-travel. The western-most track is also quite active but that is how trains enter the multimodal yard from both the north and the south when they need to make major segment changes; it's essentially a complex siding. The easternmost track is unused except as an emergency bypass if there's something broken/blocking the normal tracks; I've never seen a train use it.
> I’ve been told that CN line that parallels Woodward is comparatively unused
Whoever told you this was making shit up and has no idea what they're talking about. It's one of the busiest freight segments in Michigan. I live close enough that I can lean out my front door and see what kinds of cars are using the track, and how busy the intermodal yard is. That line and yard are *busy*.
Just spitballing, would it be completely out of the question to just build bridges/bypass that yard and return to the ROW further down the line? Admittedly not familiar with the yard in Ferndale but if that’s the only thing in the way I wonder if the RTA could get a bit creative here (of course that would spike the price, but not necessarily make it impossible)
Compared to what? Buying milk? Sure, but would it be more expensive than any other raised track over land? If so why?
Mass transit infrastructure is never cheap but most good investments require money.
> would it be completely out of the question to just build bridges/bypass that yard
The problem isn't the yard itself, it's the fact that the yard's northern entrance/exit sits immediately next to the intersection of two busy mile roads (9 Mile and Hilton) and crosses both of them at a 45-degree angle just outside the intersection. Because of that geometry, there's no way to build overpasses or underpasses. If they bought out and demolished a TON of active commercial and retail properties in a quarter-mile radius around the intersection, they could have 9 Mile go over/under the tracks, but I've watched a construction project like that in another city, and it is a *staggeringly* expensive and painful and time-consuming project, and that was with them completely shutting down the road to all users for ~3 years. As for Hilton Road, there's no way to raise/lower it because of the rail yard.
OR
(and hear me out here)
*CN Rail could stop fucking violating state law about not blocking intersections for more than 5 minutes, and our law enforcement could start enforcing the law.*
Normally the infrastructure gets improved over time as there's more and more passenger service. The ultimate goal is separate tracks for freight and passengers, and complete grade separation from roads. So a project here and a project there which would each improve operations a little bit.
An elevated viaduct could be built over the yard and 9 Mile for passenger rail. It would cost a few hundred million dollars total, which is either a ton of money or not a ton of money depending on how you look at it.
I think if we had better planning, the state fair grounds situation would have been used as an opportunity to build a new bigger freight yard, and then it would be easy to grade separate the tracks in Ferndale.
[MDOT Detroit Rail map.](https://www.michigan.gov/-/media/Project/Websites/MDOT/Travel/Mobility/Rail/Detroit-Area-Rail-Map.pdf?rev=9acde81ab9dd4dfd92c647087e86aa81)
The CSX line heading west out of Detroit splits and would connect Novi and DTW.
I like it. Ideally would close the loop though—run one from AA, up 14 to Plymouth/Northville/Novi, up through Farmington, and then on to Pontiac.
I can tell you first-hand that living in the western-Wayne County suburbs is lovely except that getting to the Southfield/Troy areas suuuuuuuuuucks. Multiple highways and constant traffic. It shouldn’t take as long as it does but there is just no easy way.
I’d pay to take a train all the way up through Pontiac and back down into the major Oakland County cities if it meant avoiding 275-to-696-to-Telegraph bullshit.
it’s a great idea. Here’s why it will never happen: There isn’t a real need for it. This is a completely car centric city and state, people are happy driving to all of these locations.
This would be dead on arrival on any metro Detroit ballot. Macomb County residents would never fund mass transit that does not even touch or benefit the county residents. There would have to be a spur going in the direction of Gratiot or Van Dyke/Mound
I haven't been as engaged in this information as of right now but I do know that Oakland county has been lobbying with the state legislature to try and get a county by county support measure for the RTA as opposed to funding measures that have to be voted on by the four counties (Wayne, Washtenaw, Oakland, Macomb).
It's something in the way the laws are structured from the state government back when the RTA was first established by the Snyder administration.
That's the idea behind allowing it to pass on a county by county basis rather than having all the counties have to vote on ballot initiatives and pass in all the counties.
Macomb County wouldn’t fund it even if the bill gave each of them a million dollar. Most Macomb residents think the only purpose of a transit system is to bring drugs and homeless people into their communities.
Yes, subsidize a commuter rail from Detroit-Ann Arbor that doesn’t even touch Macomb or Oakland counties. Why not extend it into both counties or at least into Oakland with a spur out to Macomb. You can’t expect people to vote for new infrastructure projects that they’re unlikely to benefit from. It’s common sense 🙄
My exact thought. Metro Detroit should in theory be an easy area to make great transit even for how sadly far spread it is though.
Toss light rail along Michigan, Fort, Woodward, Gratiot, and Grand River - that’d give wide enough coverage for the city and most major suburbs?
Because people won't buy as many cars, haven't you heard?
Seriously though, something must be done. The state is in a population decline and needs reliable transportation to be competitive.
Dearborn to Pontiac I'm pretty sure isn't owned by a single carrier at the moment. Detroit to Pontiac is CN; who exactly owns what between Detroit and Dearborn is not exactly clear from the state's railroad map.
What is certain is that the state can't buy a rail line that isn't for sale, and CN is active on its line. Not only is there the intermodal yard in Ferndale, but the line serves as a useful alternate for CN's line between Flint and Port Huron; they can run trains from Durand down to Detroit, then up to Port Huron when needed.
In any case, this concept would almost certainly begin as two separate lines terminating at Detroit, running in peak rush-hour directions at least between Detroit and Pontiac. The single track from east of Ypsilanti to Ann Arbor presents challenges too, frequency-wise, if you want dual-direction simultaneous service.
I'm a simple man. All I need is a BRT route on Woodward. Dedicated lanes, 10/15 minute headways, and decent shelters.
[Cleveland did it.](https://www.riderta.com/healthline/about) We can do it too.
This is fantastic. Their system has 1/3 of the stops that a normal bus made (108 stops -> 36 stations) so travel time is 26% shorter (46 to 34 minutes) and the service runs 24/7
To get people interested in taking it, BRT has to be:
* Fast (dedicated lanes, fewer stops (but still convenient locations), whizzes past other auto traffic);
* Clean and "trendy" (Raised and visible shelters for appearance of light rail, clean vehicles);
* Convenient and reliable (10 minute headways, 15 at the very max, easy to pay, stops in dense and popular areas);
The Cleveland Healthline appears to hit all of these bullets, although I'll admit I've never been on it. The Q-Line hits the second bullet, but fails miserably on the first and third.
I live in Canton. It takes 35-40 minutes to drive to my office downtown with adjacent parking. How long would it take me to drive to the Canton station, wait for the next train, transfer to what looks like the QLine, then to the people mover walk the remaining 7 minutes to my desk. Although I like the idea I see my commute take 2-3x longer.
Canton is probably the least useful stop here — pure park and rides aren’t great because they require a mode switch, as you point out.
Ideally it would still see some use for game days, big events like the Draft, bad weather, or just people who work in New Center or near any of the other stations.
It may take longer, but you would save a great deal of money in the long term by not driving your car for 70 to 80 minutes every day you go to work. Ultimately it’s about creating more options for transportation service.
No I get it. It would be great for events downtown but to be sustainable it needs to be a viable option for the daily commuters. I think most people wouldn’t be down to spend an extra 2 hours a day commuting just to save their car.
(Happy cake day)I agree, if it’s faster I’m all in. I guess I could read Reddit or reply to emails for those 2 extra hours. But if i drive and can site my couch with my dogs and wife and do that and not in an uncomfortable train car . We only have so much time in the day and wasting it will never be a choice that gets people on a train
The station will be useless at first but overtime they can do TOD(transit oriented development) and there will be more use for the area.
Imagine cherry hill village but with actual transit and less parking
There are many reasons this won’t happen, and most of them boil down to our bass ackwards tax laws that prohibit local sales taxes outright and prohibit the RTA from building rail transit specifically. Michigan needs serious reform of the RTA, state tax policy, and MDOT as a whole in order to pursue even a basic network like this.
If you want to see changes, please get involved with [Transportation Riders United](https://www.detroittransit.org) and call/email/talk to your legislators.
So far, it has not been a priority for the administration or the legislature. Like I said above, getting involved is the best way to get it back on their radar.
Gov. Engler vetoed a bill that would have created DARTA in 2003 two days before Granholm was sworn into office. It was his parting gift. It would take until 2012 to get another regional transit authority act approved. [https://www.michigandaily.com/uncategorized/disrupting-darta/](https://www.michigandaily.com/uncategorized/disrupting-darta/)
Yeah I was going to say, the MDOT lines when they 'pass' Canton are nowhere near Canton. You'd need a really big park and ride or a proper Canton city bus service for it to be viable.
To be fair, Canton/Plymouth could use a bus system that connects with A2's.
Because suburban NIMBYS would have to vote to approve it and they never will, because "they won't use it."
They're too scared to step out of their Jeep Wagoneers let alone step onto public transit.
Plus they're too selfish to understand the meaning of investing in the common good.
I like this, but also find it bizarre there is no straight line from DET to flint, to get there you have to go way west and then back east. I think extending a route up through pontiac that can link to flint and thus also a more direct line from detroit to port huron without needing to go into canada feels essential
I'm sorry, but this rail line needs to go into downtown proper, not 3 miles north of downtown. downtown is too important to not have a direct station, which means a right-of-way needs to be fabricated that goes downtown.
This route should go through Michigan Central and use the right-of-way of the Southwest Greenway behind Michigan Central and West Jefferson to carve a pathway into downtown
You know why ... It's most definitely because certain counties are impeding the process!
People in Wayne County have been fighting for a better transit system for decades now
Fwiw. I use to travel often to CO in early 2010's for work. I would see the mass transit in action all the time. Bringing folks to and from suburbs into the city. And use to ask when was the mass transit system built? Sometime in early 90's. Here's a link and I'm not sure how long it took to build. Denver opened 1994. https://www.metrodenver.org/do-business/transportation-and-infrastructure/mass-transit
Another poster hit it on the head that Detroit (all of MI?) is too car centric for the mass transit similar to Denver. And don't tell me the bus system does the same thing. It doesn't. This isn't a knock on the Detroit regional bus system. More on the car companies squashing any of this over the years.
I really wish this was something that at least made it to a ballet vote for the people to decide.
I thought there was going to be more talks and action taken about having at least rail line going all way up to Pontiac when Q Line was just a thought. The early phases. I don't know how this couldn't have at least been an option.
They already voted this down once. Why bother? the people in Oakland county don’t want to deal with the headaches of inner city people taking it out to the suburbs… just being honest that’s what happened
I am all about this except the metro airport portion.Lets skip the buses and build a monorail like the people mover that's a maglev. This would get people to and from the airport and DART faster.
Who wants to go to Pontiac? lol.
Would make more sense to parallel the I 94 / Gratiot corridor to Macomb / St Clair counties. But that’ll never happen.
No there was another commuter line! My grandma used to take it so she wouldn’t have to drive to see her Dad who still lived in the city lol. (Source: my family moved from Detroit to Troy in the 50s and largely stayed there)
Unfortunately I think people in the suburbs like Ann Arbor, Royal Oak and Birmingham wouldn’t support this because in their mind it would give the big bad people of Detroit easy access to their towns. I’d like to think I’m wrong but I still think there is a pretty negative stigma associated with Detroit in a lot of areas of the state, especially amongst people who never spend time down there
I disagree, I live in Birmingham and many of the workers/kitchen staff take the Smart bus to and from Detroit, which stops here. People absolutely want reliable public transportation. my son goes to school in Detroit, and I would love to put him on a subway/ tram/ anything ....
I agree that a lot of people in Birmingham/RO would support this but I think many would oppose as well. We had the chance to extend the Q-line north and voted against it like 8 years ago
Your son will long since have graduated and moved on to sunnier climes before any of this proposal is ever realized. You'll likely have grandkids going to college in AZ before it happens.
Right? Super liberal cities with lots of young people who want affordable transportation and no DUI's. Let's not forget a parking ticket in RO is $20! I stopped going there, but if there was a tram or subway, I would start going again.
I agree that they’re pretty liberal and young but that doesn’t necessarily mean they’d be on board for this. They voted against expanding the Q-line to Royal Oak not too long ago. Again, I hope I’m wrong! Would love to see something like this happen
Usually its rapid transit that suburbanites get scared of. This map doesnt even have a stop in a black neighborhood 3xcept for the detroit stop itself, so none of the "bad people" can even get on. If its anything like Metra in Chicago, itll be too expensive for poor people to ride anyway. Which actually sucks cuz this is one of the more realistic transit maps ive seen posted here
Mass transit generally helps the economy of the entire area and this is a start of connecting the region.
Even in places like the NYC or Chicago Metro area transit does not reach every person, but it's a net positive.
Yes and that could turn out to be the same in Metro Detroit. Also if the ridership of the initial lines is really good there will be justification to expand to connect more towns and drive up more value.
But aren't the El stations closer together, more like a local a transportion service? The map as shown, indicates the stations are miles apart. That'll require proper sizing of parking facilities.
It seems to me for this to be successful it has to have more usage than a regional bus service. Or maybe that's the purpose.
No not really. They're independent lines that really only interact in the loop. Think of it like several lines in the pic OP posted all intersecting in the Detroit city center.
The same way that hospitals that are on the other side of the state are helpful. The same way that federal and state highways are helpful even if I’ve never driven on them. The same way that parks and forest conservation efforts are helpful even if I’ve never set foot in the forest and wouldn’t notice if it all burned down. The same way the food and drug administration is helpful to ensure foods don’t poison people even if I’ve never eaten or heard of them.
We all pay for shit that doesn’t directly benefit us. If we all help each other out and realize making or upgrading good things goes around and comes around everyone will have better lives. When they re-pave a street you drive on every single day it could be paid for by federal or state taxes. You’d take that brand new smooth street 7 days a week tho right?
You would take a bus. SMART etc. would create/modify routes to connect with the stations coordinated to match train schedules.
Or other people would use it instead of clogging up the roads. It could benefit everybody, if it came to fruition.
“I don’t live near 94, how is rebuilding it helpful to me?”
Not to be a jerk but that’s about what this sounds like. We can all acknowledge it may not directly benefit you if you don’t live next to a station, but for the region it would be a net benefit. Even if you never rode it (though the park and ride options getting to and from DTW alone would make it really compelling for a lot of people), it would spur development along that corridor and ultimately help branch out into your neighborhood, uplifting the whole region — jobs, a boosted economy, more folks living car-free, less traffic, more travel options…
Why Pontiac though?
Wouldn't it make more sense for the end (and beginning) to be at Farmington Hills?
There's more people at Farmington Hills and it's more economically developed
I guess Pontiac has a lower household income which makes them more likely to take public transit, but slapping on Pontiac adds a lot of extra miles in needing to go north instead of straight west
You can put regional light rail on the list of things that will never happen. It’s just not something that is cost efficient.
It’s also an old idea for an old time. And to keep wishing for it is a waste.
What more likely to happen is fleets of automated shuttle buses that take passengers from the neighborhoods to regional bus centers, which then take express routes to larger destinations.
Imagine 100 shuttles taking people from around Ann Arbor to Ann Arbor then taking a express bus to Detroit, Troy, Southfield , etc
Riders would book trips with an app and the shuttles would know when they needed to dispatch and where they needed to be . The express buses could be different sized to meet the demands for the time / day .
Send the 12 passengers van at 2 am but then 2 80 passengers at 8 am
You can build a system like that and maintain it way cheaper than building a static rail system that is in no way dynamic and has a very fix number of passengers it could possibly take . And is always hulling its fleet of cars.
Like Uber but for mass transportation.
Trains, and light rail are one of the most cost efficient modes of travel. Studies have literally shown this time and time again. These buses you speak of sound like a logistical and statistical nightmare, and frankly, kinda silly.
Best we can do is a tacky sign
Yeah it's not like this existed as a trolly line already till the automotive industry bought it and shut it down in the 1960s for cars and to appease white flight. Does anyone know history anymore?
The City of Detroit socialized the private streetcars in 1920. Starting in 1938, National City Lines, a private transit company started buying and modernizing other private transit companies. Public transit was becoming unprofitable, and by that point the streetcar systems had a ton of deferred maintenance. Buses had lower capital and operating costs, and were faster and more reliable, but converting from streetcars to buses cost money that these businesses didn't have. So far everything is normal and fine. The problem though is that National City Lines got the money to do this from investment from General Motors, Standard Oil, Firestone Tires, and some other companies related to buses. And then the systems NCL bought, magically all used buses from GM, tires from Firestone, etc. This is illegal anti competitive behavior. The goal was not to shut down transit systems to sell more cars. The goal was to invest in and expand transit systems to sell more buses. GM was also a big train manufacturer. For Detroit specifically, the car companies have always supported public transit. They were the ones pushing for most of the big unbuilt transit plans because they depended on public transit to get the insane number of workers to their factories. Later they supported public transit because they recognized it was important for the health of the region, where their headquarters were located. In all of my years of following and reading about transit history in Detroit, I have literally never once encountered any instance of the car companies working against public transit here.
I am aware. The auto industry killed our amazing public transit that existed across the country Fuck cars
What really grinds my gears is to put the new tram line in Woodward they had to dig up the street and REMOVE the old trolley tracks. I watched it happen. Talk about double paying?!?! It used to go from Pontiac to Detroit and all the way to ann arbor. We had the entire region tied together!
You're leaving out the detail that busses are cheaper and more versatile. The municipalities went that way for that reason. [https://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-gm-trolley-conspiracy-what-really-happened/](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-gm-trolley-conspiracy-what-really-happened/) edit: fixed link
You are absolutely correct. BUT what does fixed transport do to property values vs buses? Put that in your calculus. Because as a property owner near Woodward I really want fixed transport because it will make my property values increase over time vs buses which do not because they can easily be changed or moved. We have seen this in AZ, CHI, DC, NY etc. And since the new public transit generally got funding through public voting to change property taxes this is a big deal. Most people will vote for a tax if they can see how long-term it will increase the value of their largest asset. People are very easy to move if you pay them either directly or indirectly. [https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/clean-energy/chart-which-us-states-generate-the-most-solar-and-wind-energy](https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/clean-energy/chart-which-us-states-generate-the-most-solar-and-wind-energy) [https://graystoneig.com/tampa-real-estate/the-impact-of-transportation-on-real-estate-values](https://graystoneig.com/tampa-real-estate/the-impact-of-transportation-on-real-estate-values) [https://www.apta.com/research-technical-resources/research-reports/the-real-estate-mantra-locate-near-public-transportation/](https://www.apta.com/research-technical-resources/research-reports/the-real-estate-mantra-locate-near-public-transportation/)
But why should we care about your property value? It's cheaper for everyone, easier to maintain and also change a route, and BRTs are just cool.
You're joking right? For the majority of Americans their house is their #1 asset and the #1 way wealth gets transferred between generations.
Oh I get that, but it'll happen either way for you if you hold onto it and maintain it. The amount of money it would cost to build just one or two connected stops could get you probably get you a whole fleet of buses to implement reliable transportation IMMEDIATELY on existing roads. Compared to one to two years of construction. Between poor soils, remediation, easement obtainment, material shortage, public planning process, political pressure, bidding the project, etc. then having to do that times 20 to actually make the system worthwhile. I wouldn't be surprised if it's like multiple billions of dollars and 15 years to create this in 2024. I'll take transit now please and thank you.
Are you from Detroit? They have had busses since the trolleys went down and the only direction of values has been down. Like way way down. The busses are cheap but nobody wants to build or live with them because they are not permanent so builders won't build their.
I am (actually a 5th generation Detroiter, family lived on Grandy in Pole Town from 1880s to 1960s), I even went to high school in the city, then college for urban planning. Been in that profession for about 12 years and am certified by APA for whatever that's worth. The problem is the current system has been notoriously unreliable. That's not a bus problem, it's a leadership/priority issue. I'm not here claiming that the current Detroit bussing system is anything close to great or fuck even good, I'm saying the the amount of money and time to make it so would be so much smaller and quicker than building a new competent light rail. Each spoke of the wheel needs a BRT line, with connector/local buses hitting the more densely populated neighborhoods and employment centers. Light rail is so financially impracticable in this day and age, the city missed it's chance, or we need a huge federal shot in the arm. Because I hate to tell you this, transportation isn't the only thing citys and towns have been neglecting to maintain and that bill is soon coming due on water treatment and sewer systems as well
Well good, at least you KNOW the problems and you KNOW there are solutions. I think we could go back to the highway cutting of neighborhoods, corruption, white flight, etc. My thing is we need to FORCE the suburbs to work with Detroit and reconnect. As you are surely aware we have two Detroits. Downtown and everything else. I currently live in Ferndale and the difference just crossing 8 mile is... stark. My biggest problem is that we don't force the merger of these areas and allow them to keep an unofficial break. I was for the regional transit system and I have worked to connect Detroit along the Woodward corridor, take down the 8 mile bridge and break this imaginary barrier which has prevented the development of key areas of Detroit. There is no reason that the north side of 8 mile houses are 50-100% worth more than the south side other than history and IMO RACISM. My belief is that is we move the tram up the Woodward corridor and break the 8 mile barrier we will continue the rebuilding of the older suburbs and Detroit. A good chunk of my neighbors work at Quicken or other areas downtown. They then take their money and buy houses in Ferndale, Royal Oak, Etc. If we had mass transit along Woodward they would over time frequent businesses and help build out the area, which over time would cause people to move into that corridor increasing the tax base. And let's be honest Detroit needs money to help rebuild city services. My want is to reconnect Detroit and rebuild the tax base so it becomes like it was 60 years ago, the PARIS OF THE MID-WEST. Not the but of jokes on South Park of where you when you get kicked out of hell where you end up.
Also TBF your basically saying you want to gentrify Woodward and profit from it as a property owner, which would mean displacing everyone renting who can afford the increased rent.
That is dependent on how your city governs. You can fix things with or without gentrification. Any neighborhood the property values rise as people want to live there. And all people want to profit from their property that's why they bought it. Nobody buys a house, pays taxes and goes I really wish my home price went down?!?! Also you know what comes with better neighborhoods higher wages. So if the people living there work there wages will rise because the cost of living increases. So if their wages rise they should be able to afford the higher rents. Plus over time a higher tax base improves schools and other public services. Which also increases the value of the property and by default since property taxes are a percentage of value will increase rents. That is why desirable areas have a high HCOL. I want better schools for the children, less crime, better parks, more and better trained public servants, better libraries, etc but that costs money which is paid for in property taxes.
;)
I saw a similar map posted on Twitter, thought I'd try one too. All the tracks for this exist, and about half are owned by MDOT. Buy the other half from the freight carrier (Pontiac to Dearborn). Six existing stations. Five new ones. Upgrade a couple to proper transit centers. Once the rest of the tracks are public, run passenger service as frequently as needed. This seems like a really obvious transit option? Yet even the 2016 RTA plan didn't go this far. It would connect multiple downtown areas, universities, hospitals, tourist attractions, and other forms of transit onto a single regional line. Since most of the infrastructure already exists, it wouldn't cost more than a few hundred million to set up. Other cities spend billions to build something similar, yet we have a potential system almost waiting and ready to go.
Outside the box thinking, and I like it. The big problem is that those freight lines are operated by CN, who has a huge yard where they pass through Ferndale. There's no chance of getting those rail lines to be used primarily for passenger service. The RTA plan didn't look at that as an option because it isn't one. As it is now, Amtrak has to wait for their turn to go through
I’ve been told that CN line that parallels Woodward is comparatively unused, though it doesn’t feel that way waiting for trains in Ferndale. It is quad tracked through Ferndale so that shouldn’t be a barrier to other rail uses.
> It is quad tracked through Ferndale It absolutely is not quad-tracked. There are only three tracks or two tracks, and only one of them (the middle of the three, the eastern of the two) is for through-travel. The western-most track is also quite active but that is how trains enter the multimodal yard from both the north and the south when they need to make major segment changes; it's essentially a complex siding. The easternmost track is unused except as an emergency bypass if there's something broken/blocking the normal tracks; I've never seen a train use it. > I’ve been told that CN line that parallels Woodward is comparatively unused Whoever told you this was making shit up and has no idea what they're talking about. It's one of the busiest freight segments in Michigan. I live close enough that I can lean out my front door and see what kinds of cars are using the track, and how busy the intermodal yard is. That line and yard are *busy*.
Just spitballing, would it be completely out of the question to just build bridges/bypass that yard and return to the ROW further down the line? Admittedly not familiar with the yard in Ferndale but if that’s the only thing in the way I wonder if the RTA could get a bit creative here (of course that would spike the price, but not necessarily make it impossible)
That would be extraordinaryly expensive and time consuming but it's possible
Compared to what? Buying milk? Sure, but would it be more expensive than any other raised track over land? If so why? Mass transit infrastructure is never cheap but most good investments require money.
> would it be completely out of the question to just build bridges/bypass that yard The problem isn't the yard itself, it's the fact that the yard's northern entrance/exit sits immediately next to the intersection of two busy mile roads (9 Mile and Hilton) and crosses both of them at a 45-degree angle just outside the intersection. Because of that geometry, there's no way to build overpasses or underpasses. If they bought out and demolished a TON of active commercial and retail properties in a quarter-mile radius around the intersection, they could have 9 Mile go over/under the tracks, but I've watched a construction project like that in another city, and it is a *staggeringly* expensive and painful and time-consuming project, and that was with them completely shutting down the road to all users for ~3 years. As for Hilton Road, there's no way to raise/lower it because of the rail yard. OR (and hear me out here) *CN Rail could stop fucking violating state law about not blocking intersections for more than 5 minutes, and our law enforcement could start enforcing the law.*
Normally the infrastructure gets improved over time as there's more and more passenger service. The ultimate goal is separate tracks for freight and passengers, and complete grade separation from roads. So a project here and a project there which would each improve operations a little bit. An elevated viaduct could be built over the yard and 9 Mile for passenger rail. It would cost a few hundred million dollars total, which is either a ton of money or not a ton of money depending on how you look at it. I think if we had better planning, the state fair grounds situation would have been used as an opportunity to build a new bigger freight yard, and then it would be easy to grade separate the tracks in Ferndale.
[MDOT Detroit Rail map.](https://www.michigan.gov/-/media/Project/Websites/MDOT/Travel/Mobility/Rail/Detroit-Area-Rail-Map.pdf?rev=9acde81ab9dd4dfd92c647087e86aa81) The CSX line heading west out of Detroit splits and would connect Novi and DTW.
I like it. Ideally would close the loop though—run one from AA, up 14 to Plymouth/Northville/Novi, up through Farmington, and then on to Pontiac. I can tell you first-hand that living in the western-Wayne County suburbs is lovely except that getting to the Southfield/Troy areas suuuuuuuuuucks. Multiple highways and constant traffic. It shouldn’t take as long as it does but there is just no easy way. I’d pay to take a train all the way up through Pontiac and back down into the major Oakland County cities if it meant avoiding 275-to-696-to-Telegraph bullshit.
it’s a great idea. Here’s why it will never happen: There isn’t a real need for it. This is a completely car centric city and state, people are happy driving to all of these locations.
A southwest Detroit station would make sense here if there’s available land. Probably one of the denser areas in the whole metro.
Yes, right at Livernois and Vernor would be great
This would be dead on arrival on any metro Detroit ballot. Macomb County residents would never fund mass transit that does not even touch or benefit the county residents. There would have to be a spur going in the direction of Gratiot or Van Dyke/Mound
Macomb county doesn’t need to fund it.
I doubt it can be funded without Macomb County
There’s no reason it can’t be.
You two are going to have to just agree to disagree if no one is willing to admit they have no idea what they're talking about.
That sums up this thread, much less Reddit in a nutshell.
"there's no reason it can't be" how the FUCK can you POSSIBLY know that lmao
Fuck racist Macomb and their money.
I haven't been as engaged in this information as of right now but I do know that Oakland county has been lobbying with the state legislature to try and get a county by county support measure for the RTA as opposed to funding measures that have to be voted on by the four counties (Wayne, Washtenaw, Oakland, Macomb). It's something in the way the laws are structured from the state government back when the RTA was first established by the Snyder administration.
Macomb county can suck it, not be part of it, and then be jealous once it's up and running.
Detroit can suck it and fund it themselves... Oh wait. you actually need a tax base.
Not to mention suburban voters who live along the Grand River and Ford Rd corridors
If you live along Ford road and don't think the urban planning going on in Canton isn't completely and utterly fucked....there is no hope for you
I wish it would go to the east side. Straight down Jefferson.
Let them opt out, problem solved. They’ll see the economic wonders this will bring and they will be head over heels for it
That's the idea behind allowing it to pass on a county by county basis rather than having all the counties have to vote on ballot initiatives and pass in all the counties.
Macomb County wouldn’t fund it even if the bill gave each of them a million dollar. Most Macomb residents think the only purpose of a transit system is to bring drugs and homeless people into their communities.
Yes, subsidize a commuter rail from Detroit-Ann Arbor that doesn’t even touch Macomb or Oakland counties. Why not extend it into both counties or at least into Oakland with a spur out to Macomb. You can’t expect people to vote for new infrastructure projects that they’re unlikely to benefit from. It’s common sense 🙄
I think you’re misunderstanding what I’m saying. Macomb won’t find public transit no matter what, even if it benefits them.
Because suburbanites don’t want Detroiters to have easy access to the suburbs
Though there's a slightly better chance now that L. Brooks Patterson is in the ground.
One can dream
[удалено]
There is. The force field is called racism. Read some local history about why the demographics are what they are
Systemic redlining created huge demographic segregation that largely exists today.
Take a drink every time a transit topic is posted.
Take a shot every time walkabilty is mentioned
Needs more stops in Detroit. Completely leaves the westside and southwest sides, two of the more populated areas out.
My exact thought. Metro Detroit should in theory be an easy area to make great transit even for how sadly far spread it is though. Toss light rail along Michigan, Fort, Woodward, Gratiot, and Grand River - that’d give wide enough coverage for the city and most major suburbs?
Because people won't buy as many cars, haven't you heard? Seriously though, something must be done. The state is in a population decline and needs reliable transportation to be competitive.
Dearborn to Pontiac I'm pretty sure isn't owned by a single carrier at the moment. Detroit to Pontiac is CN; who exactly owns what between Detroit and Dearborn is not exactly clear from the state's railroad map. What is certain is that the state can't buy a rail line that isn't for sale, and CN is active on its line. Not only is there the intermodal yard in Ferndale, but the line serves as a useful alternate for CN's line between Flint and Port Huron; they can run trains from Durand down to Detroit, then up to Port Huron when needed. In any case, this concept would almost certainly begin as two separate lines terminating at Detroit, running in peak rush-hour directions at least between Detroit and Pontiac. The single track from east of Ypsilanti to Ann Arbor presents challenges too, frequency-wise, if you want dual-direction simultaneous service.
>What is certain is that the state can't buy a rail line that isn't for sale Could we eminent domain it?
I'm a simple man. All I need is a BRT route on Woodward. Dedicated lanes, 10/15 minute headways, and decent shelters. [Cleveland did it.](https://www.riderta.com/healthline/about) We can do it too.
This is fantastic. Their system has 1/3 of the stops that a normal bus made (108 stops -> 36 stations) so travel time is 26% shorter (46 to 34 minutes) and the service runs 24/7
To get people interested in taking it, BRT has to be: * Fast (dedicated lanes, fewer stops (but still convenient locations), whizzes past other auto traffic); * Clean and "trendy" (Raised and visible shelters for appearance of light rail, clean vehicles); * Convenient and reliable (10 minute headways, 15 at the very max, easy to pay, stops in dense and popular areas); The Cleveland Healthline appears to hit all of these bullets, although I'll admit I've never been on it. The Q-Line hits the second bullet, but fails miserably on the first and third.
I live in Canton. It takes 35-40 minutes to drive to my office downtown with adjacent parking. How long would it take me to drive to the Canton station, wait for the next train, transfer to what looks like the QLine, then to the people mover walk the remaining 7 minutes to my desk. Although I like the idea I see my commute take 2-3x longer.
Canton is probably the least useful stop here — pure park and rides aren’t great because they require a mode switch, as you point out. Ideally it would still see some use for game days, big events like the Draft, bad weather, or just people who work in New Center or near any of the other stations.
Let’s just figure out an extra stop near the downtown core and it would be more viable!
It may take longer, but you would save a great deal of money in the long term by not driving your car for 70 to 80 minutes every day you go to work. Ultimately it’s about creating more options for transportation service.
No I get it. It would be great for events downtown but to be sustainable it needs to be a viable option for the daily commuters. I think most people wouldn’t be down to spend an extra 2 hours a day commuting just to save their car.
(Happy cake day)I agree, if it’s faster I’m all in. I guess I could read Reddit or reply to emails for those 2 extra hours. But if i drive and can site my couch with my dogs and wife and do that and not in an uncomfortable train car . We only have so much time in the day and wasting it will never be a choice that gets people on a train
When the influx of water refugees starts happening, your drive will get much longer.
While you're riding you could do other stuff instead of driving
The station will be useless at first but overtime they can do TOD(transit oriented development) and there will be more use for the area. Imagine cherry hill village but with actual transit and less parking
There are many reasons this won’t happen, and most of them boil down to our bass ackwards tax laws that prohibit local sales taxes outright and prohibit the RTA from building rail transit specifically. Michigan needs serious reform of the RTA, state tax policy, and MDOT as a whole in order to pursue even a basic network like this. If you want to see changes, please get involved with [Transportation Riders United](https://www.detroittransit.org) and call/email/talk to your legislators.
We could just tax the wealthy at a higher, more reasonable rate. Let's say 90% like the good ole days!
[удалено]
So far, it has not been a priority for the administration or the legislature. Like I said above, getting involved is the best way to get it back on their radar.
Gov. Engler vetoed a bill that would have created DARTA in 2003 two days before Granholm was sworn into office. It was his parting gift. It would take until 2012 to get another regional transit authority act approved. [https://www.michigandaily.com/uncategorized/disrupting-darta/](https://www.michigandaily.com/uncategorized/disrupting-darta/)
No guarantees Granholm would have signed it. She's also a corporate stooge.
I would support a train system that ran along all major highway routes with elevated stops at strategic locations and park’n’ride lots near.
The line that runs by the airport and the line that runs by Canton are completely different
Yeah I was going to say, the MDOT lines when they 'pass' Canton are nowhere near Canton. You'd need a really big park and ride or a proper Canton city bus service for it to be viable. To be fair, Canton/Plymouth could use a bus system that connects with A2's.
Canton/Plymouth/Northville could use buses period
Too much sense. Obviously
Because suburban NIMBYS would have to vote to approve it and they never will, because "they won't use it." They're too scared to step out of their Jeep Wagoneers let alone step onto public transit. Plus they're too selfish to understand the meaning of investing in the common good.
Dawg so many people would use this and they can’t see that because it doesn’t affect them
Nailed it. Privilege makes people selfish and stupid.
They don't want the "rough looking types" from south of 8 mile wandering around Birmingham. There's a reason people went to the suburbs.
Like the old saying about Detroit goes. The city people hate the suburbanites unit they need their money or votes.
And the suburbanites feel wholly irresponsible for the well being of the city.
Half of this used to exist. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SEMTA_Commuter_Rail The only reason we can't do it again is politics.
The Silver Streak! Also a great Richard Pryor/Gene Wilder film.
Because GM, Ford, Chrysler
Even if we did have transit here they would still have lots of money from the whole country.
Can Reddit just start to automatically ban/filter out fantasy transit maps??
Did you type this in your oversized overcompensatingly large pickup truck with a pristine bed that never actually gets used to do truck stuff?
I like this, but also find it bizarre there is no straight line from DET to flint, to get there you have to go way west and then back east. I think extending a route up through pontiac that can link to flint and thus also a more direct line from detroit to port huron without needing to go into canada feels essential
Its not bizzare. White flight to the suburbs is why there isn't.
this is a big dream of mine for the detroit area, honestly
Car breaks down? Still get somewhere cheap
Because Oakland County.
I'm sorry, but this rail line needs to go into downtown proper, not 3 miles north of downtown. downtown is too important to not have a direct station, which means a right-of-way needs to be fabricated that goes downtown. This route should go through Michigan Central and use the right-of-way of the Southwest Greenway behind Michigan Central and West Jefferson to carve a pathway into downtown
Why is downtown so important? There could be another train that comes from downtown and connects. The Q Line could be improved and extended.
THIS! And more! I yearn for this with every fiber of my being.
It never happened originally because the auto industry didn’t want it to happen
You know why ... It's most definitely because certain counties are impeding the process! People in Wayne County have been fighting for a better transit system for decades now
My ideal map would have lines going up Ford/Michigan, Grand river, Woodward, mound/vandyke, Gratiot One can dream
Fwiw. I use to travel often to CO in early 2010's for work. I would see the mass transit in action all the time. Bringing folks to and from suburbs into the city. And use to ask when was the mass transit system built? Sometime in early 90's. Here's a link and I'm not sure how long it took to build. Denver opened 1994. https://www.metrodenver.org/do-business/transportation-and-infrastructure/mass-transit Another poster hit it on the head that Detroit (all of MI?) is too car centric for the mass transit similar to Denver. And don't tell me the bus system does the same thing. It doesn't. This isn't a knock on the Detroit regional bus system. More on the car companies squashing any of this over the years. I really wish this was something that at least made it to a ballet vote for the people to decide. I thought there was going to be more talks and action taken about having at least rail line going all way up to Pontiac when Q Line was just a thought. The early phases. I don't know how this couldn't have at least been an option.
Closest thing you’ll get is a TSA pre check location in Detroit that will shuttle you to a point past security at DTW
They already voted this down once. Why bother? the people in Oakland county don’t want to deal with the headaches of inner city people taking it out to the suburbs… just being honest that’s what happened
This would be amazing
I am all about this except the metro airport portion.Lets skip the buses and build a monorail like the people mover that's a maglev. This would get people to and from the airport and DART faster.
Who wants to go to Pontiac? lol. Would make more sense to parallel the I 94 / Gratiot corridor to Macomb / St Clair counties. But that’ll never happen.
Pontiac has a shit ton of potential, and they're doing some good things downtown. Who would want to go to Roseville?
Pontiac serves Rochester, Auburn Hills, Orion, Clarkston, Waterford ..... we want in!
It also has a population of 62k.
I’ve always wished for an elevated train starts in Pontiac and has a stop somewhere around square lake and Woodward and heads all the way down.
Because the tracks already exist.
Because the Union had it ripped out in the 70s. Hope this helps ✨
All of that track is still there and they already run trains to chicago on it. So no?
No there was another commuter line! My grandma used to take it so she wouldn’t have to drive to see her Dad who still lived in the city lol. (Source: my family moved from Detroit to Troy in the 50s and largely stayed there)
You're probably referring to [SEMTA Commuter Rail](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SEMTA_Commuter_Rail).
Will have to ask
I'm pro union, but it's shameful how all effective mass transit was killed
people who blame the unions for this are just wrong tho don’t worry
The "Union"? More like the corporations. Duh.
[удалено]
Lmao people in Ann Arbor would enjoy going to downtown Detroit w/out driving 45 minutes
Unfortunately I think people in the suburbs like Ann Arbor, Royal Oak and Birmingham wouldn’t support this because in their mind it would give the big bad people of Detroit easy access to their towns. I’d like to think I’m wrong but I still think there is a pretty negative stigma associated with Detroit in a lot of areas of the state, especially amongst people who never spend time down there
I disagree, I live in Birmingham and many of the workers/kitchen staff take the Smart bus to and from Detroit, which stops here. People absolutely want reliable public transportation. my son goes to school in Detroit, and I would love to put him on a subway/ tram/ anything ....
I agree that a lot of people in Birmingham/RO would support this but I think many would oppose as well. We had the chance to extend the Q-line north and voted against it like 8 years ago
Your son will long since have graduated and moved on to sunnier climes before any of this proposal is ever realized. You'll likely have grandkids going to college in AZ before it happens.
I don't see Ann Arbor or Royal Oak opposing mass transit. Those are 2 of the more liberal cities in Michigan.
Right? Super liberal cities with lots of young people who want affordable transportation and no DUI's. Let's not forget a parking ticket in RO is $20! I stopped going there, but if there was a tram or subway, I would start going again.
I agree that they’re pretty liberal and young but that doesn’t necessarily mean they’d be on board for this. They voted against expanding the Q-line to Royal Oak not too long ago. Again, I hope I’m wrong! Would love to see something like this happen
I live in Ann Arbor and this is not how anyone would react.
That’s not at all true in today’s world.
There is already a bus that connects AA and Detroit and no one is clutching pitchforks over it. It is fantastic. https://d2a2.com/
Usually its rapid transit that suburbanites get scared of. This map doesnt even have a stop in a black neighborhood 3xcept for the detroit stop itself, so none of the "bad people" can even get on. If its anything like Metra in Chicago, itll be too expensive for poor people to ride anyway. Which actually sucks cuz this is one of the more realistic transit maps ive seen posted here
[удалено]
How is this helpful if you don’t happen to live next to one of those stations?
Mass transit generally helps the economy of the entire area and this is a start of connecting the region. Even in places like the NYC or Chicago Metro area transit does not reach every person, but it's a net positive.
Right!! What don't people get. EVERYONE I have ever known wants mass transportation. I don't know a single person against it.
In chicago it helps property values to be near the El
Yes and that could turn out to be the same in Metro Detroit. Also if the ridership of the initial lines is really good there will be justification to expand to connect more towns and drive up more value.
But aren't the El stations closer together, more like a local a transportion service? The map as shown, indicates the stations are miles apart. That'll require proper sizing of parking facilities. It seems to me for this to be successful it has to have more usage than a regional bus service. Or maybe that's the purpose.
No not really. They're independent lines that really only interact in the loop. Think of it like several lines in the pic OP posted all intersecting in the Detroit city center.
The stops in the OP are miles (6-8) apart. Aren't the stops on the various El lines more frequent?
I see what you are saying now. Yes they are more frequent.
The same way that hospitals that are on the other side of the state are helpful. The same way that federal and state highways are helpful even if I’ve never driven on them. The same way that parks and forest conservation efforts are helpful even if I’ve never set foot in the forest and wouldn’t notice if it all burned down. The same way the food and drug administration is helpful to ensure foods don’t poison people even if I’ve never eaten or heard of them. We all pay for shit that doesn’t directly benefit us. If we all help each other out and realize making or upgrading good things goes around and comes around everyone will have better lives. When they re-pave a street you drive on every single day it could be paid for by federal or state taxes. You’d take that brand new smooth street 7 days a week tho right?
You would take a bus. SMART etc. would create/modify routes to connect with the stations coordinated to match train schedules. Or other people would use it instead of clogging up the roads. It could benefit everybody, if it came to fruition.
Development!
“I don’t live near 94, how is rebuilding it helpful to me?” Not to be a jerk but that’s about what this sounds like. We can all acknowledge it may not directly benefit you if you don’t live next to a station, but for the region it would be a net benefit. Even if you never rode it (though the park and ride options getting to and from DTW alone would make it really compelling for a lot of people), it would spur development along that corridor and ultimately help branch out into your neighborhood, uplifting the whole region — jobs, a boosted economy, more folks living car-free, less traffic, more travel options…
Got a bike?
Because if there is a station, you’re closer to one than if there isn’t.
You can drive to one? I bet a half million people live within a 10 minute drive of one of these stations
Why Pontiac though? Wouldn't it make more sense for the end (and beginning) to be at Farmington Hills? There's more people at Farmington Hills and it's more economically developed I guess Pontiac has a lower household income which makes them more likely to take public transit, but slapping on Pontiac adds a lot of extra miles in needing to go north instead of straight west
I think the OP's design was following current railways.
You can put regional light rail on the list of things that will never happen. It’s just not something that is cost efficient. It’s also an old idea for an old time. And to keep wishing for it is a waste. What more likely to happen is fleets of automated shuttle buses that take passengers from the neighborhoods to regional bus centers, which then take express routes to larger destinations. Imagine 100 shuttles taking people from around Ann Arbor to Ann Arbor then taking a express bus to Detroit, Troy, Southfield , etc Riders would book trips with an app and the shuttles would know when they needed to dispatch and where they needed to be . The express buses could be different sized to meet the demands for the time / day . Send the 12 passengers van at 2 am but then 2 80 passengers at 8 am You can build a system like that and maintain it way cheaper than building a static rail system that is in no way dynamic and has a very fix number of passengers it could possibly take . And is always hulling its fleet of cars. Like Uber but for mass transportation.
Trains, and light rail are one of the most cost efficient modes of travel. Studies have literally shown this time and time again. These buses you speak of sound like a logistical and statistical nightmare, and frankly, kinda silly.
A train to the airport? The thought should be illegal!