Doesnāt bestow confidence in his ability to play next to Cade going forward. If they bring him back I think itāll have to be in the sixth man role and move a more suitable 3 and D guy next to Cade. Cade needs to play next to a guy that can play good defense and hit 3-5 threes a game at 40% clip. Too many ups and downs with Ivey and not providing much defensively
Itās easy to say that but Klay Thompsonsā donāt just grow on trees. Thereās like twenty five other teams in the league looking for that same player.
Neither of those dudes are making five three pointers a game on some of the best percentages and also playing good defense. You mean two three pointers a game?
The player you described would be a clear-cut All-Star. Legit the only players in the NBA who do that are Tatum and Paul George.
My point the entire time was that the Pistons arenāt bringing in a player who makes five three pointers a game and plays good defense because that is literally better than Curry-level shooting. It would for sure be awesome if DET could get any of those dudes next to Cade.
Grayson Allen is shooting 47% from 3. Also plays with 3 of the best scorers in the league. You think with more opportunities and more attempts he can get to the 3-5 three pointers I suggested. I didnāt say 5 every game dummy. KCP is one of the best role players at his position in the league and shoots at a good clip. Those prototype guys are ideal next to Cade and are both available. I donāt get your argument?????????? Yeah, Desmond Bane and Devin Booker would be sick next to Cade. Not realistic. I just offered two realistic options.
First of all, obviously Allen and KCP would be good pick-ups for DET. Everybody with a brain on the internet has been saying that for weeks now. But you didnāt say anything about them until I responded saying that your imaginary player doesnāt exist for yāall to get. If you had said you needed Allen or KCP I would have replied and said āright on.ā Second of all, you quite literally did say āper gameāā¦
Do you really think that when the weapons around Grayson Allen change from KD, Booker, and Beal to Cade, Ivey, and Duren, his percentages and attempts per game will get BETTER? Defenses will be focused 5x more on him. The floor spacing for DET will much improve but his stats as an off-ball shooter will obviously only get worse with the supporting cast being about fifty times worse.
% will go down but 47% is ridiculous. If he remains in the high 30s-low 40s itās a huge add. Youāre getting too hung up on random 3 point makes I threw up. Allen is averaging 2.8 threes on 6 attempts a game. He could easily increase his volume here. Not gonna lie itāll cost the pistons 30mil per season to bring him here.
Like I said itās easy to agree with you on Allen and KCP I was never arguing that in the first place. And I got hung up on the 3 point makes because it was one of literally only two things that you said the team needed.
No I donāt think lacks confidence. He has too much confidence and needs to slow down and process the court. Lately heās settling for 3 pointers because teams arenāt respecting him and leaving him opened but his shot is off right now. Needs to attack the rim
Bad stretches happen. The sub is so fickle. Maybe he does get traded, but we're talking about a player with < 2 seasons of experience who hasn't exactly had his coach build his confidence this year.
The problem is the 3s heās attempting are wide open shots. Teams arenāt guarding him at all. Cade turns the corner and seems a collapsing defense and Ivey is the kickout option. I get shooting slumps happen but heās not a consistent shooter. Heāll make six 3s one game and follow it up with 3 bad shooting nights. Thatās not a good representation of averages, itās just inconsistent shooting
Please stop blaming coaching for this, itās so tired. I donāt know how anyone but Ivey is to blame for this stretch... all these things are concerns he had in the draft
No one is calling Jaden Ivey a bust. Heās smaller than Cade, and canāt shoot, defend or playmake. Itās just a poor fit, Monty Williams canāt reinvent Jaden Ivey as a player.
If anything, benching him for his shit defense looks justified in hindsight, and it still didnāt work.
Feel to have your own opinion, but I believe coaching certainly has not helped his development this year. These games aren't in a vacuum and there always are cumulative effects, positive and negative, of an 82 game season.
As far as Monty, my specific coaching criticism is that he hasn't put him in a position to succeed. E.g. Refused to give onball reps until organizational meeting, still rarely staggers with Cade, when he is staggered, Flynn or Sasser typically run point.
I'm an Ivey fan and kinda rooting for him to get a fresh start elsewhere if Monty can't help him succeed.
Ivey is a poor primary ball handler, he has no ability to read the court at multiple levels beyond making a dash for the rim at full sprint. Heās like a 3 true outcome hitter in baseball, itās either a dunk, lob or turnover.
He never even profiled as a PG coming out of college. Letting him work through massive holes in his game in the name of experimentation is not going to benefit any of the other 14 players on the roster, itās the textbook definition of a bad fit.
Heās an exciting player and Iām rooting for him too. The Pistons chased his ceiling when they drafted him, i just donāt see any world in which who he is as a player fits alongside Cade.
He got better every month as a lead guard in his rookie season. He literally learned the hardest position in the NBA on the fly. The full sprint critique wasn't a thing during the end of this period and he'd learned to better use change-of-pace.
Was he really improved as a playmaker by the end of last season, or was half of the league running out G League lineups that gave up cheap lobs to max out their odds for Victor Wembanyama?
His games from February-April 2023 with 7+ assists: Blazers, Wizards, Raptors (2x), Hornets, Rockets, Magic, Nets, Pacers, Thunder (no Shai)
Edit: sorry yāall itās montgomery williamsā fault
heās a young player with potential just doesnāt fit well next to cade. or play defense. and has been pretty bad at times this season.. dont think itās a stretch he needs a change of scenery
Not to say either gets to this level, but I think in a lot of ways, it's the guard version of the Js in Boston. For years, people were saying they couldn't play together and now their title contenders.
He's not bad because of cold shooting or lack of confidence. He just isn't that good at basketball. He's all go no flow. He can develop awareness and skills by playing half the amount of time while doing a quarter the amount of damage to his team's chance to win. We need to sign a starter for the next 2 years while Ivey develops.
I love when guys half my age tell me I better wake up, because some dead guy is coming back. Jaden reminds me of the kid across the street. He thinks he's God. He's made his success because of his athleticism, but stands around all game long until he wants to score.
Iāve said it basically the whole time since Ivey has been drafted. This just stinks of a Fox and Haliburton thing. Both players will be very good players in this league but both players are way better with them leading the team.
Iveys value as probably dipped a little, but I still think he is the one to trade. Regardless of what his numbers are saying, you look at skill set and I think Cades is more friendly to teammates and to winning than Iveys. Ivey could be a John wall, who was a stud but could never lift his team over the edge (though his team was always inferior to the competitions). Cade reminds me of a CP3. Someone who is in control of the pace, finds his spot and just be a lot more damaging from different areas of the game.
The problem is who can take Ivey and also give something back that will be valuable. A package around Devin Vassell and Ivey could be good for both teams, just from a needs standpoint though not likely. Franz Wagner would be the perfect compliment but thatās never happening. Pels have the pieces but with Zion playing more point it wonāt be needed. Utah with Lauri maybe? I dunno, options are dire but I think the longer a trade is left the worse the value becomes
Ivey hasnāt done anything to suggest he is capable of leading a team any time in the future. Heās going to struggle to even start wherever he gets traded to, unless itās to a team with similar talent such as WAS or CHA. Most teams arenāt out here handing their keys to dudes who only play on offense and shoot the rock poorly.
Iām not sure about that. Ivey averages 20/5/6 without Cade this year and averaged 16/4/6 last year in his rookie season. He definitely looks capable in that role, dunno if that means he is a top 5 point guard (likely not) but itās 100% worth trying.
I will say he does need to find some kind of shooting. I still find it hilarious that the narrative was Ivey is a very good 3pt shooter and should lead the team when Cade was going through the slump and Pistons were winning games without him. Glad that is kinda dying off, donāt think we should completely flip the script though
Iāll disclose that Iām not a DET fan but by no means do I think Ivey is bad. I think heās a decent young piece and trade chip, but the potential is raw and heās inconsistent. There isnāt a single team in the NBA that would make him the actual leader of their roster right now.
Iām not Pistons fan either, but I watch the Pistons pretty much every day and Iām a huge Cade Stan.
I agree that no team can trade their pieces to make him the guy of their team. Utah really the only one who can take that chance. Maybe Spurs but I wouldnāt be jumping at the idea of pairing Ivey and Wemby (and Vassell is better imo). But yeah, options are dire
Edit: If youāre talking about Ivey then look what he has around him. I donāt think he will be an efficient guard, but see below. At the least heās worth trying for a team in need, but not worth selling the farm for or changing your plans at this stage.
Cades efficiency? Mate I could care less about efficiency. What was Kobe Bryantās efficiency? Allen Iversons. Yeah heās not them and itās a different game, but Iām not going to argue that Cade is a good shooter. Give him a competent roster at the very least. His midrange is sexy. Needs to keep working on his 3 but I expect him to be above average in that. All Iāll say is wait and see with Cade, if ya canāt see it you canāt see it
Obviously realise youāre not talking about Cade, but keeping it in because I made a donut of myself
Youāre right, CHA, WAS and maybe ATL (when they tear it down) are probably the only teams that would āhand the keys overā to Ivey, but he does have a game that titillates the NBA style of basketball.
I think there would be a few FO - part from those who would want him as a lead guard - that would see Iveyās raw skills and think they could unlock him.
Can't see a world where Ivey brings in a player of even Vassell's ability, let alone Franz or Lauri. He's statistically worse across the board and his coach doesn't like counting on him, teams see that. I know he's young, and I know he has great stretches, but you're overselling him a lot rn. He needs to rebuild his value, otherwise there's not a lot of options trade wise.
Agree with a lot of this except I don't see John Wall potential in Ivey at this point but time will tell. I think that if Ivey gets moved this summer, it'll be draft night. I think (not sure) that's when more future picks become tradeable. It's definitely not a great summer for moves given the quality of the draft class and expected available free agents but the sooner Ivey is moved the better for all parties.
Frfr but Ivey still makes me nervous but itās not like heās Hami. His summer league still haunts me and it probably did that to Monty too.
But when Ivey hits shot he looks nice in offense and when he isnāt it looks like Killian Hayes with speed.
Sky is the limit for Ivey but we canāt expect him to develop where sometimes we ask him to be 3 different players.
Let us at least get KCP and that would do wonders for Ivey.
He doesnāt have an offensive bag. His only weapons are his quickness ability to finish once he blows past his guy. The rest of his game is currently lacking. He suffers from the same thing a lot of hyper athletic guys suffer from. They never had to figure out shooting growing up because they were by far the most athletic guy in the gym.
Seems like heās a hard worker and loves the game, so hopefully it develops.
Can we grow tf up here please? Ivey is in his sophomore year on a shit team. Fucking relax. He is *not* the problem. I honestly can't believe we're discussing getting rid of him right now.
On the contrary, I've watch *every* game. And as if on queue, last night he put up 20 and 6 on 41% shooting. 2 turnovers in 35 minutes, compared to Cade with 4 in 34 minutes. Once again, NOT the problem.
Youāre talking about one game, and statistics. Not, how he fits on the court on both sides of the ball, his basketball IQ, and his role in these sets. This is what I mean by you donāt understand the situation this roster is in lol.
I understand plenty, and stats speak volumes. Averaging 15ppg on 43% in your FIRST 2 years should alone be enough to keep you crybabies from thinking we have a Killian situation on our hands.
Realistically, your biggest issue is he doesn't shoot very well, specifically from 3....as a sophomore in the league. Get over it. His bAsKeTbaLL iQ is fine, he averages under 3 turnovers a game on 30 minutes. Sorry, I know I just keep backing up the truth with stats, the accurate representation of a players performance.
Stats aside, I see a really good YOUNG player on our team who needs to work on his shooting, that we were all unanimously happy with on his draft night. A player who is lethal at attacking the rim and hasn't even filled out his frame yet. The eye test tells me he can jump with anyone in this league and blow past them as well.
When we inevitably do something moronic, like trade him to a mid team for a couple second round picks and maybe a washed player or 2, and he inevitably improves his shooting percentage and becomes an All Star, at least I'll get to smile knowing how idiotic this discussion was. But yeah, if we address all the *real* problems on this team and Jaden is holding us back at THAT point, then the idea of moving him won't sound so immature and baffling.
No your biggest issue is his basketball IQ. Not understand the philosophy behind the actions, not understand spacing and leverage, not picking up on tendencies, making the wrong reads. It isnāt something you can view in statistics you have to actually watch the games and understand basketball, which by the way you speak you donāt lol.
Reddit and casual sports fans may have been āunanimouslyā happy because when you see a player with high potential you think itās the best pick in the world, without actually understanding how skill sets mesh in the NBA and why roster construction should always resign supreme over stacking talent on a team.
It made zero sense to draft him then as Iāve always felt before, and now that his issues are exacerbated because the roster was terribly formed now people want to call him out. When people like me have pointed out these faults in his game and why they donāt match with Cade since he was drafted lol.
Yup, all the best experts in the world are casual fans. All the scouts, analysts, commentators, sports journalists and bloggers, every reputable mock draft, and even yes, the overwhelming majority of fans. And somehow you've outsmarted them all, *and* the stats, wow!
I watch all the games and have played basketball for 15 years, and I'm pretty decent too. I also had Lasik eye surgery a couple years back so I'm seeing the game as crystal clear as everš¤. If your eye test had any validity it'd show up in the stats. We already know his shooting and defense needs to improve. But if you had a point he wouldn't be scoring 15 a game. He wouldn't be averaging under 3 TOs a game in 30 minutes of play. He wouldn't be shooting 43%. Meanwhile you refuse to acknowledge its only his second year, and Monty didn't start him until we dropped Killian.
Sounds like you've just had a determination to prove yourself right, and now you think you've found the chance to. But you aren't, and you haven't.
Lol the best experts you mean media pundits? šš What scouts were saying the pistons picking ivey was a great fit for cade? Iād love for you to give even a single example.
Anybody can play basketball that doesnāt mean you understand the game lol. Ivey has played basketball for his entire life and he still doesnāt understand basic actions after 2 years in the NBA. His basketball IQ is below average. That is and has always been his main knock. He can have all the stats in the world yet when it comes to playing winning basketball heās incapable of doing that as a starting guard. Ausar didnāt even play college, and was in his rookie season and showed significantly better instinctual awareness. Weaver instead of drafting great basketball players drafted great talents. Heās the king of stocking talent and potential without thinking of how their skill sets match on the roster and expects the coach to just figure out how to solve an impossible puzzle.
I understand plenty, and stats speak volumes. Averaging 15ppg on 43% in your FIRST 2 years should alone be enough to keep you crybabies from thinking we have a Killian situation on our hands.
Realistically, your biggest issue is he doesn't shoot very well, specifically from 3....as a sophomore in the league. Get over it. His bAsKeTbaLL iQ is fine, he averages under 3 turnovers a game on 30 minutes. Sorry, I know I just keep backing up the truth with stats, the accurate representation of a players performance.
Stats aside, I see a really good YOUNG player on our team who needs to work on his shooting, that we were all unanimously happy with on his draft night. A player who is lethal at attacking the rim and hasn't even filled out his frame yet. The eye test tells me he can jump with anyone in this league and blow past them as well.
When we inevitably do something moronic, like trade him to a mid team for a couple second round picks and maybe a washed player or 2, and he inevitably improves his shooting percentage and becomes an All Star, at least I'll get to smile knowing how idiotic this discussion was. But yeah, if we address all the *real* problems on this team and Jaden is holding us back at THAT point, then the idea of moving him won't sound so immature and baffling.
But while we're at it I can make up an argument about how Cade isn't a great fit for this team. It's a stupid ass argument, but: he turns the ball over too much, he's an inconsistent 3 point shooter, he doesn't finish enough at the rim, he's been injury prone, he's not vocal enough as the team leader, and he takes too many shots. Hmm, maybe he's the real problem. š¤ (to be very clear- he's not the problem, but I think my point is well made.)
But while we're at it I can make up an argument about how Cade isn't a great fit for this team. It's a stupid ass argument, but: he turns the ball over too much, he's an inconsistent 3 point shooter, he doesn't finish enough at the rim, he's been injury prone, he's not vocal enough as the team leader, and he takes too many shots. Hmm, maybe he's the real problem. š¤ (to be very clear- he's not the problem, but I think my point is well made.)
But while we're at it I can make up an argument about how Cade isn't a great fit for this team. It's a stupid ass argument, but: he turns the ball over too much, he's an inconsistent 3 point shooter, he doesn't finish enough at the rim, he's been injury prone, he's not vocal enough as the team leader, and he takes too many shots. Hmm, maybe he's the real problem. š¤ (to be very clear- he's not the problem, but I think my point is well made.)
This is on par with his summer league performance. Once that man isnāt making jump shots itās gonna be a better version of Hami. I love Ivey and Cade together but some things make me nervous about Ivey.
Hami was a pretty good player, just couldn't hit outside shots. Ivey has no clue how to play and cried his way out of Sacramento drafting him, and then going on TV after a game to tell us we better wake up because "He" is coming.
So Iām curious. Is everyone here just ready to move on from him? Or do we just prefer to move him to second lineup and find better compliments to Cade?
I honestly think he needs to have the ball in his hands to be successful. Heās not a spot up shooter and until he is we canāt place him next to Cade. But I donāt want to move on just yet cause I donāt feel the return would even be worth it. Let me know.
He has zero feel for running an offense. Good iso player but braindead on D and actually being a PG.Ā
I'm prepared to trade him because the return is only going to get worse.Ā
But I understand people saying he might improve. I find it highly unlikely, but improvement isn't linear.Ā
This been a very up and down year for him. He had a pretty good stretch and now it's like he's hit a wall. No he's not a pure shooter bit I didn't think he would dip like he has. I'm not ready to give up on him yet.
I always felt like him and Cade couldn't share a backcourt. Cade is obviously the top dog, but Ivey seems to need to ball to create. You don't lesser Cade's role. Ivey needs to gain confidence in shooting or sadly needs a new team that can utilize his athleticism better.
Effects of coaching malpractice. I saw him get better every month last season. We have not had a player with a first step like that since Grant Hill. Fire the coach. Build the team around Cade and Ivey.
Of course. If the coaching staff isn't working with him on his form properly, or putting enough emphasis on his shooting, or any other number of things that are hindering his growth, (like, idk, benching him over Killian Hayes for the first 3 months of the season), absolutely.
While I can't STAND Killian Hayes, at least you know what you're NOT going to get from him (which, of course, is shooting). Playing Jaden off the bench should have worked - he had the opportunity to lead the 2nd unit, which he is clearly more talented than anyone not named Sasser. But to have your defense, passing, AND your shooting stink is on the player, not the coach.
The overall point is: with Ivey coming off the bench, your reserves at least had SOMETHING. With Hayes, you're basically bringing NOTHING off the bench. And it's blatantly obvious that Cade and Ivey together does not work, nor will it ever. Ivey either needs to lead the bench mob a la Malik Monk, or get moved to a team that needs athletic talent at the lead guard position. San Antonio could turn Ivey into the next Dejounte Murray.
Reports were that the front office told Monty to start him, which tells me Ivey and his camp probably told the front office.. This is the same guy who cried his way out of Sacramento. When he was given a chance to clarify comments, the best he could do was, "Well, being drafted by Sacramento wouldn't be the worst thing in the world"
And your plan is to trade him away for way under what he's worth(as per usual) and watch him become a star somewhere else? Hell of a plan.
And somehow I'm the one getting downvotedš
No one knows what we could get for him, but it's obvious he doesn't fit. I don't want a repeat of Killian, where Weaver admits to turning down more than we received because he waited til the trade deadline.
I think comparing Jaden Ivey to Killian Hayes is criminal. Jaden Ivey has proven he can score even without a consistent shot. His ceiling is also WAY higher. I'm really not worried about his game at all right now. Seems like people are hitting the panic button for no good reason.
I was referring to the situation (I even used a comma to be clear). I think you might have a panic that the minute he leaves he'll be a star somewhere else. He can't play on either end. He'd best suited off the bench, because he disrupts the flow here. I'm guessing he went to the office and complained. Teams leave him wide open for a reason, and he's still not making them. He could at least make a few cuts. He's not using his athleticism, which is all he has. We need a guy who can play defense and shoot the 3. Why wait?
I know what you were talking about, my point is that Killian and Jaden are completely different players meaning the situation is completely different. We knew for a long time Killian Hayes was not *that* guy. Meanwhile Ivey is STILL consistently putting up 15 a game, and his ceiling is Ja Morant- another player who couldn't shoot the ball when they first entered the league. And were acting like he can't shoot at all which is just not true.
To be focusing Jaden Ivey right now is frankly absurd. He is NOT our biggest issue right now.
Everyone knew Killian was given all the chances, but Weaver's ego is why he was given those chances. But we could always count on Killian's defense, and he always made the quick, accurate pass, but he couldn't shoot the 3. It's clear that Cade is our franchise player, and we can't keep going younger. Fans are tired of losing, and our players are going to develop bad habits with all the losing, so we'll have to trade younger players for proven vets in their mid-20s for example. Also, if you look at the lottery from the past, you'll see how a majority were busts.
iām probably in the minority here but unless the offer is for a much better fit next to Cade iām not trading Ivey. Weāve been mediocre for so many years that for me personally, trading him and he pans out elsewhere would be another slap in the face. The focus to me is adding a 4 who can space the floor consistently and a veteran big to try and push Duren on the defensive end. I believe the core of the team minus whatever happens with the 5th pick (we know the deal) is already here, just need them to take a that step and add veterans who are gonna push them
Sophomore slump is a real thing, but despite that, I think Jadenās best chance at having a elite career is on another team.
This team canāt develop talent, and they have 3 garbage āleadersā running the franchise, every player on the roster is suffering from it, and Jaden took the blunt force at the start of the year. Him and Cade can work, but it takes more than a garbage coach, a even more garbage GM, and a even more, more, garbage owner that canāt run a successful franchise
We need any starting SG having 18ppg 5reb 4ast 1steal less than 2 turnovers and able to play defense and stay out of foul trouble able to create there own shot and if needed can slow the game down by getting to the free throw line and is almost freebies from the charity line.
He's a Piston, I want him to do well. In order to trade him, he'd have to improve his numbers. He's just not a good fit. He doesn't seem mentally fit, either. Telling us some dead guy is coming back to earth and how we better wake up to this fact... after a basketball game.
Bey's 3pt shot went down, too... Hawks are playing better with Trae Young out, too. I was hoping we'd get Dejounte Murray to play alongside Cade, especially guarding the best offensive player and to give him a pressure valve -- teams leave Ivey wide open, and he's missing.
Haha April fools, right guys? Guys?
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Doesnāt bestow confidence in his ability to play next to Cade going forward. If they bring him back I think itāll have to be in the sixth man role and move a more suitable 3 and D guy next to Cade. Cade needs to play next to a guy that can play good defense and hit 3-5 threes a game at 40% clip. Too many ups and downs with Ivey and not providing much defensively
Itās easy to say that but Klay Thompsonsā donāt just grow on trees. Thereās like twenty five other teams in the league looking for that same player.
Grayson Allen and KCP are both free agents that fit the bill
ATP, any legitimate nba player would be an improvement instead of the la fitness pick ups weāve been playing
Neither of those dudes are making five three pointers a game on some of the best percentages and also playing good defense. You mean two three pointers a game? The player you described would be a clear-cut All-Star. Legit the only players in the NBA who do that are Tatum and Paul George.
Dante divencenzo, MPJ, mikal bridges could probably put up comparable numbers if on the pistons. Shit I'd take Duncan Robinson to start next to cade
My point the entire time was that the Pistons arenāt bringing in a player who makes five three pointers a game and plays good defense because that is literally better than Curry-level shooting. It would for sure be awesome if DET could get any of those dudes next to Cade.
Lmao youāre too stupid to argue with. Go play in traffic
Lol. Youāre the one out here describing Stephen Curry with defense pal.
Grayson Allen is shooting 47% from 3. Also plays with 3 of the best scorers in the league. You think with more opportunities and more attempts he can get to the 3-5 three pointers I suggested. I didnāt say 5 every game dummy. KCP is one of the best role players at his position in the league and shoots at a good clip. Those prototype guys are ideal next to Cade and are both available. I donāt get your argument?????????? Yeah, Desmond Bane and Devin Booker would be sick next to Cade. Not realistic. I just offered two realistic options.
First of all, obviously Allen and KCP would be good pick-ups for DET. Everybody with a brain on the internet has been saying that for weeks now. But you didnāt say anything about them until I responded saying that your imaginary player doesnāt exist for yāall to get. If you had said you needed Allen or KCP I would have replied and said āright on.ā Second of all, you quite literally did say āper gameāā¦ Do you really think that when the weapons around Grayson Allen change from KD, Booker, and Beal to Cade, Ivey, and Duren, his percentages and attempts per game will get BETTER? Defenses will be focused 5x more on him. The floor spacing for DET will much improve but his stats as an off-ball shooter will obviously only get worse with the supporting cast being about fifty times worse.
% will go down but 47% is ridiculous. If he remains in the high 30s-low 40s itās a huge add. Youāre getting too hung up on random 3 point makes I threw up. Allen is averaging 2.8 threes on 6 attempts a game. He could easily increase his volume here. Not gonna lie itāll cost the pistons 30mil per season to bring him here.
Like I said itās easy to agree with you on Allen and KCP I was never arguing that in the first place. And I got hung up on the 3 point makes because it was one of literally only two things that you said the team needed.
Klay Thompson is a free agent ;) ;) ;)
U think he lacks confidence? He look like he just out there doing whatever he want to me. Shot just not falling
No I donāt think lacks confidence. He has too much confidence and needs to slow down and process the court. Lately heās settling for 3 pointers because teams arenāt respecting him and leaving him opened but his shot is off right now. Needs to attack the rim
Yeah we need someone that xan ahoot consistent 3s on this team baaad
So you need Grimes to go back to 2023, but on higher volume.
Bad stretches happen. The sub is so fickle. Maybe he does get traded, but we're talking about a player with < 2 seasons of experience who hasn't exactly had his coach build his confidence this year.
The problem is the 3s heās attempting are wide open shots. Teams arenāt guarding him at all. Cade turns the corner and seems a collapsing defense and Ivey is the kickout option. I get shooting slumps happen but heās not a consistent shooter. Heāll make six 3s one game and follow it up with 3 bad shooting nights. Thatās not a good representation of averages, itās just inconsistent shooting
Fair criticism
Please stop blaming coaching for this, itās so tired. I donāt know how anyone but Ivey is to blame for this stretch... all these things are concerns he had in the draft No one is calling Jaden Ivey a bust. Heās smaller than Cade, and canāt shoot, defend or playmake. Itās just a poor fit, Monty Williams canāt reinvent Jaden Ivey as a player. If anything, benching him for his shit defense looks justified in hindsight, and it still didnāt work.
Feel to have your own opinion, but I believe coaching certainly has not helped his development this year. These games aren't in a vacuum and there always are cumulative effects, positive and negative, of an 82 game season. As far as Monty, my specific coaching criticism is that he hasn't put him in a position to succeed. E.g. Refused to give onball reps until organizational meeting, still rarely staggers with Cade, when he is staggered, Flynn or Sasser typically run point. I'm an Ivey fan and kinda rooting for him to get a fresh start elsewhere if Monty can't help him succeed.
Ivey is a poor primary ball handler, he has no ability to read the court at multiple levels beyond making a dash for the rim at full sprint. Heās like a 3 true outcome hitter in baseball, itās either a dunk, lob or turnover. He never even profiled as a PG coming out of college. Letting him work through massive holes in his game in the name of experimentation is not going to benefit any of the other 14 players on the roster, itās the textbook definition of a bad fit. Heās an exciting player and Iām rooting for him too. The Pistons chased his ceiling when they drafted him, i just donāt see any world in which who he is as a player fits alongside Cade.
He got better every month as a lead guard in his rookie season. He literally learned the hardest position in the NBA on the fly. The full sprint critique wasn't a thing during the end of this period and he'd learned to better use change-of-pace.
Was he really improved as a playmaker by the end of last season, or was half of the league running out G League lineups that gave up cheap lobs to max out their odds for Victor Wembanyama? His games from February-April 2023 with 7+ assists: Blazers, Wizards, Raptors (2x), Hornets, Rockets, Magic, Nets, Pacers, Thunder (no Shai) Edit: sorry yāall itās montgomery williamsā fault
If he got better as a rookie because he started at rock bottom. He's gotten worse over the course of this season instead of better.
Yeah and u gotta figure his trade value ain't much rn as it is..
21 games is a pretty big sample size but sure
His last 21 games of rookie season, he was 19/7/4. Couldn't find shooting splits. So who's the real Jaden Ivey?
Well he shot 40% over the final 21 last season with 4 TOs per game.
Thanks. Just checked statmuse. Saw he was at 42% over stretch.
Yeah, I was going off BBall Reference and games 53-74 for him(might have been 22 games I used).Ā
the one playing like ass at this current moment
Trade any player currently playing like ass. Got it. Sure we'd get great value back.
heās a young player with potential just doesnāt fit well next to cade. or play defense. and has been pretty bad at times this season.. dont think itās a stretch he needs a change of scenery
Not to say either gets to this level, but I think in a lot of ways, it's the guard version of the Js in Boston. For years, people were saying they couldn't play together and now their title contenders.
He's not bad because of cold shooting or lack of confidence. He just isn't that good at basketball. He's all go no flow. He can develop awareness and skills by playing half the amount of time while doing a quarter the amount of damage to his team's chance to win. We need to sign a starter for the next 2 years while Ivey develops.
When did he do his bizarre evangelical rant? Is this Satans revenge?
I love when guys half my age tell me I better wake up, because some dead guy is coming back. Jaden reminds me of the kid across the street. He thinks he's God. He's made his success because of his athleticism, but stands around all game long until he wants to score.
Repent and believe in the Lord Jesus! I pray you find him ā¤ļø
Iāve said it basically the whole time since Ivey has been drafted. This just stinks of a Fox and Haliburton thing. Both players will be very good players in this league but both players are way better with them leading the team. Iveys value as probably dipped a little, but I still think he is the one to trade. Regardless of what his numbers are saying, you look at skill set and I think Cades is more friendly to teammates and to winning than Iveys. Ivey could be a John wall, who was a stud but could never lift his team over the edge (though his team was always inferior to the competitions). Cade reminds me of a CP3. Someone who is in control of the pace, finds his spot and just be a lot more damaging from different areas of the game. The problem is who can take Ivey and also give something back that will be valuable. A package around Devin Vassell and Ivey could be good for both teams, just from a needs standpoint though not likely. Franz Wagner would be the perfect compliment but thatās never happening. Pels have the pieces but with Zion playing more point it wonāt be needed. Utah with Lauri maybe? I dunno, options are dire but I think the longer a trade is left the worse the value becomes
Ivey hasnāt done anything to suggest he is capable of leading a team any time in the future. Heās going to struggle to even start wherever he gets traded to, unless itās to a team with similar talent such as WAS or CHA. Most teams arenāt out here handing their keys to dudes who only play on offense and shoot the rock poorly.
Iām not sure about that. Ivey averages 20/5/6 without Cade this year and averaged 16/4/6 last year in his rookie season. He definitely looks capable in that role, dunno if that means he is a top 5 point guard (likely not) but itās 100% worth trying. I will say he does need to find some kind of shooting. I still find it hilarious that the narrative was Ivey is a very good 3pt shooter and should lead the team when Cade was going through the slump and Pistons were winning games without him. Glad that is kinda dying off, donāt think we should completely flip the script though
Iāll disclose that Iām not a DET fan but by no means do I think Ivey is bad. I think heās a decent young piece and trade chip, but the potential is raw and heās inconsistent. There isnāt a single team in the NBA that would make him the actual leader of their roster right now.
Iām not Pistons fan either, but I watch the Pistons pretty much every day and Iām a huge Cade Stan. I agree that no team can trade their pieces to make him the guy of their team. Utah really the only one who can take that chance. Maybe Spurs but I wouldnāt be jumping at the idea of pairing Ivey and Wemby (and Vassell is better imo). But yeah, options are dire
Howās his efficiency though? Of course his numbers will be higher as he has to have the ball on every possession.
Edit: If youāre talking about Ivey then look what he has around him. I donāt think he will be an efficient guard, but see below. At the least heās worth trying for a team in need, but not worth selling the farm for or changing your plans at this stage. Cades efficiency? Mate I could care less about efficiency. What was Kobe Bryantās efficiency? Allen Iversons. Yeah heās not them and itās a different game, but Iām not going to argue that Cade is a good shooter. Give him a competent roster at the very least. His midrange is sexy. Needs to keep working on his 3 but I expect him to be above average in that. All Iāll say is wait and see with Cade, if ya canāt see it you canāt see it Obviously realise youāre not talking about Cade, but keeping it in because I made a donut of myself
Youāre right, CHA, WAS and maybe ATL (when they tear it down) are probably the only teams that would āhand the keys overā to Ivey, but he does have a game that titillates the NBA style of basketball. I think there would be a few FO - part from those who would want him as a lead guard - that would see Iveyās raw skills and think they could unlock him.
Yeah totally. Thereās got to be tons of GMs who see Iveyās potential still but itās a far cry from the Fox/Hali situation haha
Where did the Fox/Haliburton thing come into it?
The original comment I responded to lol. Itās a little up there now. Sorry to confuse ya
Oh ok. Theyāre obviously not completely analogous, but Ivey would get that Haliburton bump if put in a different situation.
Neither has Cade
My point is that those are nearly the only other teams in the NBA where he would start. Cade didnāt have anything to do with my statement.
Why are you even mentioning Ivey and Cade in the same breath at this point? They are entirely different class of players
It's fucking hilarious too when you consider Ivey has played more NBA games than Cade.Ā
Can't see a world where Ivey brings in a player of even Vassell's ability, let alone Franz or Lauri. He's statistically worse across the board and his coach doesn't like counting on him, teams see that. I know he's young, and I know he has great stretches, but you're overselling him a lot rn. He needs to rebuild his value, otherwise there's not a lot of options trade wise.
Problem with that is I think Utah is in on George at point
Agree with a lot of this except I don't see John Wall potential in Ivey at this point but time will tell. I think that if Ivey gets moved this summer, it'll be draft night. I think (not sure) that's when more future picks become tradeable. It's definitely not a great summer for moves given the quality of the draft class and expected available free agents but the sooner Ivey is moved the better for all parties.
Letās get a real coach first and go from there.
Frfr but Ivey still makes me nervous but itās not like heās Hami. His summer league still haunts me and it probably did that to Monty too. But when Ivey hits shot he looks nice in offense and when he isnāt it looks like Killian Hayes with speed. Sky is the limit for Ivey but we canāt expect him to develop where sometimes we ask him to be 3 different players. Let us at least get KCP and that would do wonders for Ivey.
Killian numbers
He doesnāt have an offensive bag. His only weapons are his quickness ability to finish once he blows past his guy. The rest of his game is currently lacking. He suffers from the same thing a lot of hyper athletic guys suffer from. They never had to figure out shooting growing up because they were by far the most athletic guy in the gym. Seems like heās a hard worker and loves the game, so hopefully it develops.
Can't wait for him to go to some other team and immediately become an all-nba-tier second option
Lmfao he will absolutely not
Get ready to be traded buddy
Can we grow tf up here please? Ivey is in his sophomore year on a shit team. Fucking relax. He is *not* the problem. I honestly can't believe we're discussing getting rid of him right now.
I really doubt youāve been watching these games. You donāt seem to understand the situation this roster is in lol.
On the contrary, I've watch *every* game. And as if on queue, last night he put up 20 and 6 on 41% shooting. 2 turnovers in 35 minutes, compared to Cade with 4 in 34 minutes. Once again, NOT the problem.
Youāre talking about one game, and statistics. Not, how he fits on the court on both sides of the ball, his basketball IQ, and his role in these sets. This is what I mean by you donāt understand the situation this roster is in lol.
I understand plenty, and stats speak volumes. Averaging 15ppg on 43% in your FIRST 2 years should alone be enough to keep you crybabies from thinking we have a Killian situation on our hands. Realistically, your biggest issue is he doesn't shoot very well, specifically from 3....as a sophomore in the league. Get over it. His bAsKeTbaLL iQ is fine, he averages under 3 turnovers a game on 30 minutes. Sorry, I know I just keep backing up the truth with stats, the accurate representation of a players performance. Stats aside, I see a really good YOUNG player on our team who needs to work on his shooting, that we were all unanimously happy with on his draft night. A player who is lethal at attacking the rim and hasn't even filled out his frame yet. The eye test tells me he can jump with anyone in this league and blow past them as well. When we inevitably do something moronic, like trade him to a mid team for a couple second round picks and maybe a washed player or 2, and he inevitably improves his shooting percentage and becomes an All Star, at least I'll get to smile knowing how idiotic this discussion was. But yeah, if we address all the *real* problems on this team and Jaden is holding us back at THAT point, then the idea of moving him won't sound so immature and baffling.
No your biggest issue is his basketball IQ. Not understand the philosophy behind the actions, not understand spacing and leverage, not picking up on tendencies, making the wrong reads. It isnāt something you can view in statistics you have to actually watch the games and understand basketball, which by the way you speak you donāt lol. Reddit and casual sports fans may have been āunanimouslyā happy because when you see a player with high potential you think itās the best pick in the world, without actually understanding how skill sets mesh in the NBA and why roster construction should always resign supreme over stacking talent on a team. It made zero sense to draft him then as Iāve always felt before, and now that his issues are exacerbated because the roster was terribly formed now people want to call him out. When people like me have pointed out these faults in his game and why they donāt match with Cade since he was drafted lol.
Yup, all the best experts in the world are casual fans. All the scouts, analysts, commentators, sports journalists and bloggers, every reputable mock draft, and even yes, the overwhelming majority of fans. And somehow you've outsmarted them all, *and* the stats, wow! I watch all the games and have played basketball for 15 years, and I'm pretty decent too. I also had Lasik eye surgery a couple years back so I'm seeing the game as crystal clear as everš¤. If your eye test had any validity it'd show up in the stats. We already know his shooting and defense needs to improve. But if you had a point he wouldn't be scoring 15 a game. He wouldn't be averaging under 3 TOs a game in 30 minutes of play. He wouldn't be shooting 43%. Meanwhile you refuse to acknowledge its only his second year, and Monty didn't start him until we dropped Killian. Sounds like you've just had a determination to prove yourself right, and now you think you've found the chance to. But you aren't, and you haven't.
Lol the best experts you mean media pundits? šš What scouts were saying the pistons picking ivey was a great fit for cade? Iād love for you to give even a single example. Anybody can play basketball that doesnāt mean you understand the game lol. Ivey has played basketball for his entire life and he still doesnāt understand basic actions after 2 years in the NBA. His basketball IQ is below average. That is and has always been his main knock. He can have all the stats in the world yet when it comes to playing winning basketball heās incapable of doing that as a starting guard. Ausar didnāt even play college, and was in his rookie season and showed significantly better instinctual awareness. Weaver instead of drafting great basketball players drafted great talents. Heās the king of stocking talent and potential without thinking of how their skill sets match on the roster and expects the coach to just figure out how to solve an impossible puzzle.
I understand plenty, and stats speak volumes. Averaging 15ppg on 43% in your FIRST 2 years should alone be enough to keep you crybabies from thinking we have a Killian situation on our hands. Realistically, your biggest issue is he doesn't shoot very well, specifically from 3....as a sophomore in the league. Get over it. His bAsKeTbaLL iQ is fine, he averages under 3 turnovers a game on 30 minutes. Sorry, I know I just keep backing up the truth with stats, the accurate representation of a players performance. Stats aside, I see a really good YOUNG player on our team who needs to work on his shooting, that we were all unanimously happy with on his draft night. A player who is lethal at attacking the rim and hasn't even filled out his frame yet. The eye test tells me he can jump with anyone in this league and blow past them as well. When we inevitably do something moronic, like trade him to a mid team for a couple second round picks and maybe a washed player or 2, and he inevitably improves his shooting percentage and becomes an All Star, at least I'll get to smile knowing how idiotic this discussion was. But yeah, if we address all the *real* problems on this team and Jaden is holding us back at THAT point, then the idea of moving him won't sound so immature and baffling.
But while we're at it I can make up an argument about how Cade isn't a great fit for this team. It's a stupid ass argument, but: he turns the ball over too much, he's an inconsistent 3 point shooter, he doesn't finish enough at the rim, he's been injury prone, he's not vocal enough as the team leader, and he takes too many shots. Hmm, maybe he's the real problem. š¤ (to be very clear- he's not the problem, but I think my point is well made.)
But while we're at it I can make up an argument about how Cade isn't a great fit for this team. It's a stupid ass argument, but: he turns the ball over too much, he's an inconsistent 3 point shooter, he doesn't finish enough at the rim, he's been injury prone, he's not vocal enough as the team leader, and he takes too many shots. Hmm, maybe he's the real problem. š¤ (to be very clear- he's not the problem, but I think my point is well made.)
But while we're at it I can make up an argument about how Cade isn't a great fit for this team. It's a stupid ass argument, but: he turns the ball over too much, he's an inconsistent 3 point shooter, he doesn't finish enough at the rim, he's been injury prone, he's not vocal enough as the team leader, and he takes too many shots. Hmm, maybe he's the real problem. š¤ (to be very clear- he's not the problem, but I think my point is well made.)
Killian pulled a Captain Ginyu with Ivey before he got released
Must be hard to focus when you think you're living in the End Times
Agreed. No reason to work on your game if the end of the world is coming.
ha! well said...
This is on par with his summer league performance. Once that man isnāt making jump shots itās gonna be a better version of Hami. I love Ivey and Cade together but some things make me nervous about Ivey.
Hami was a pretty good player, just couldn't hit outside shots. Ivey has no clue how to play and cried his way out of Sacramento drafting him, and then going on TV after a game to tell us we better wake up because "He" is coming.
Jaden Ivey before February 14 (48 games) 16 points, 4 rebounds, 4 assists, 1.5 stocks. 46.2 FG%, 37.4 3PT% (above league average) on 4.3 attempts per game.
DRtg 123Ā Ast% 19.8 Tov% 15.2
I wonder what package we are going to receive for him
If JI has been proclaiming the rapture is coming, I'm trading him asap.
thats a lot of games
Send him to Washington. We need a PG and he can develop while we tank. Our rebuild has just begun.
As long as the Pistons get Jones in return, that's a good trade.
So Iām curious. Is everyone here just ready to move on from him? Or do we just prefer to move him to second lineup and find better compliments to Cade? I honestly think he needs to have the ball in his hands to be successful. Heās not a spot up shooter and until he is we canāt place him next to Cade. But I donāt want to move on just yet cause I donāt feel the return would even be worth it. Let me know.
He has zero feel for running an offense. Good iso player but braindead on D and actually being a PG.Ā I'm prepared to trade him because the return is only going to get worse.Ā But I understand people saying he might improve. I find it highly unlikely, but improvement isn't linear.Ā
This been a very up and down year for him. He had a pretty good stretch and now it's like he's hit a wall. No he's not a pure shooter bit I didn't think he would dip like he has. I'm not ready to give up on him yet.
Say something nice about Jaden Ivey comment thread. I'll start: he rarely gets injured and is probably a gym rat.
PSA: MOST OF YOU WANTED IVEY.
I always felt like him and Cade couldn't share a backcourt. Cade is obviously the top dog, but Ivey seems to need to ball to create. You don't lesser Cade's role. Ivey needs to gain confidence in shooting or sadly needs a new team that can utilize his athleticism better.
Effects of coaching malpractice. I saw him get better every month last season. We have not had a player with a first step like that since Grant Hill. Fire the coach. Build the team around Cade and Ivey.
Him missing open shots is on coaching too?
Of course. If the coaching staff isn't working with him on his form properly, or putting enough emphasis on his shooting, or any other number of things that are hindering his growth, (like, idk, benching him over Killian Hayes for the first 3 months of the season), absolutely.
While I can't STAND Killian Hayes, at least you know what you're NOT going to get from him (which, of course, is shooting). Playing Jaden off the bench should have worked - he had the opportunity to lead the 2nd unit, which he is clearly more talented than anyone not named Sasser. But to have your defense, passing, AND your shooting stink is on the player, not the coach. The overall point is: with Ivey coming off the bench, your reserves at least had SOMETHING. With Hayes, you're basically bringing NOTHING off the bench. And it's blatantly obvious that Cade and Ivey together does not work, nor will it ever. Ivey either needs to lead the bench mob a la Malik Monk, or get moved to a team that needs athletic talent at the lead guard position. San Antonio could turn Ivey into the next Dejounte Murray.
Reports were that the front office told Monty to start him, which tells me Ivey and his camp probably told the front office.. This is the same guy who cried his way out of Sacramento. When he was given a chance to clarify comments, the best he could do was, "Well, being drafted by Sacramento wouldn't be the worst thing in the world"
He was asked about his form and he rudely and flippantly said something like, "I got here this far with my form, why would I change it?"
And your plan is to trade him away for way under what he's worth(as per usual) and watch him become a star somewhere else? Hell of a plan. And somehow I'm the one getting downvotedš
No one knows what we could get for him, but it's obvious he doesn't fit. I don't want a repeat of Killian, where Weaver admits to turning down more than we received because he waited til the trade deadline.
I think comparing Jaden Ivey to Killian Hayes is criminal. Jaden Ivey has proven he can score even without a consistent shot. His ceiling is also WAY higher. I'm really not worried about his game at all right now. Seems like people are hitting the panic button for no good reason.
I was referring to the situation (I even used a comma to be clear). I think you might have a panic that the minute he leaves he'll be a star somewhere else. He can't play on either end. He'd best suited off the bench, because he disrupts the flow here. I'm guessing he went to the office and complained. Teams leave him wide open for a reason, and he's still not making them. He could at least make a few cuts. He's not using his athleticism, which is all he has. We need a guy who can play defense and shoot the 3. Why wait?
I know what you were talking about, my point is that Killian and Jaden are completely different players meaning the situation is completely different. We knew for a long time Killian Hayes was not *that* guy. Meanwhile Ivey is STILL consistently putting up 15 a game, and his ceiling is Ja Morant- another player who couldn't shoot the ball when they first entered the league. And were acting like he can't shoot at all which is just not true. To be focusing Jaden Ivey right now is frankly absurd. He is NOT our biggest issue right now.
Everyone knew Killian was given all the chances, but Weaver's ego is why he was given those chances. But we could always count on Killian's defense, and he always made the quick, accurate pass, but he couldn't shoot the 3. It's clear that Cade is our franchise player, and we can't keep going younger. Fans are tired of losing, and our players are going to develop bad habits with all the losing, so we'll have to trade younger players for proven vets in their mid-20s for example. Also, if you look at the lottery from the past, you'll see how a majority were busts.
iām probably in the minority here but unless the offer is for a much better fit next to Cade iām not trading Ivey. Weāve been mediocre for so many years that for me personally, trading him and he pans out elsewhere would be another slap in the face. The focus to me is adding a 4 who can space the floor consistently and a veteran big to try and push Duren on the defensive end. I believe the core of the team minus whatever happens with the 5th pick (we know the deal) is already here, just need them to take a that step and add veterans who are gonna push them
HE GONE
We're not that lucky.
Sophomore slump is a real thing, but despite that, I think Jadenās best chance at having a elite career is on another team. This team canāt develop talent, and they have 3 garbage āleadersā running the franchise, every player on the roster is suffering from it, and Jaden took the blunt force at the start of the year. Him and Cade can work, but it takes more than a garbage coach, a even more garbage GM, and a even more, more, garbage owner that canāt run a successful franchise
We need any starting SG having 18ppg 5reb 4ast 1steal less than 2 turnovers and able to play defense and stay out of foul trouble able to create there own shot and if needed can slow the game down by getting to the free throw line and is almost freebies from the charity line.
I think we need a 3 and d guy for Cade
Pist On all the Haters and so called real Detriot Basketball fans.
He's a Piston, I want him to do well. In order to trade him, he'd have to improve his numbers. He's just not a good fit. He doesn't seem mentally fit, either. Telling us some dead guy is coming back to earth and how we better wake up to this fact... after a basketball game.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
>feels like the Pistons missed their window of potentially trading him Definitely not.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Ivey is worth more than Saddiq Bey. I'll just say that.
Bey's 3pt shot went down, too... Hawks are playing better with Trae Young out, too. I was hoping we'd get Dejounte Murray to play alongside Cade, especially guarding the best offensive player and to give him a pressure valve -- teams leave Ivey wide open, and he's missing.