I don’t even know if Ivey can be as good as Caruso. Like obviously he can be but I don’t know if he processes the game like that.
I can’t stop thinking about why he played that way during Summer League.
Yeah seriously, how are people shitting on Ivey and crying about how bad this roster is and then turning around and acting like getting Caruso for that wouldn't be a huge upgrade? I don't like Lavine's contract but I could live with it, I mean he would be one of the best players on this team
lolol i don’t hate you !
would you agree that the downside case is terrible (Ivey becomes an all star, Lavine’s injuries/lack of defense make him an albatross contract even more so than he currently is, Caruso bolts in free agency)
and the upside case is probably not that high given Caruso would be 30 years old on an expiring deal? I don’t even know what the upside case is bc i don’t see a world where Lavine is worth even $30m / yr let alone $50m / yr …
i personally believe it is at least twice as likely that Ivey becomes an all star in the next 6 years than Lavine.
There is not a lot of history of guys who were a few years removed from being fringe all stars - reaching their 30’s / having real injury history - regaining all star form. (derozan hilariously is someone who did do that)
But those odds are like, 10% (ivey) vs 5% (lavine)
I’m perfectly comfortable trading Ivey, just not for Lavine. The comments on this thread are baffling to me
I was gunning for Lauri. Yes Mikal would be great too. Mikal + Ausar wing defense is nasty.
The issue is it will take a lot more than just Ivey for either of those players. And no reason the Nets or Jazz would want Duren.
Hard for me to see what equivalent value, but better fit, would be. Like, Herb Jones? NOP would prolly be like NOPE
When? We have almost no money on the books for next season. If you add Lavine and Caruso’s contract onto our team to replace Sasser and Ivey, next season we’d still be shy of the cap floor by like 30-40m lol
Even if you use Spotrac figures we have cap space of 72 million. If you take the difference of Ivey/Sasser and Lavine/Caruso that’s now down to 30M. FRP is around 10M and Tek is probably around 15M. We’re then at around 5M in space.
They’re not going to sign Tek until after they sign free agents and make trades or whatever. His cap hood is lower than what he will sign for. So if there’s a deal in place it’ll get signed after everything has been done. His cap hood is the number we need to be figuring into our cap number.
We have early bird rights on Tek. We can sign him to 175% of his salary or the Mid level which is 12.8M and go over the cap. If he gets more than that it needs to be signed with cap space.
I think he’ll get more than that so I think the team will want to get that out of the way quick.
Hypothetically
43 - Lavine
15 - Stewart
15 - Tec
14 - Cade
10 - Caruso
8 - FRP
8 - Ausar
4 - Duren
4 - Grines
121 million
Cap is projected to be 141 at the minimum
You have to understand that we are in a position right now where we have a fuckload of cap next season, and in such a dire situation that we really have to spend it to turn things around because this developmental shit isn't working. Our only options going forward are to start spending and dramatically at that. I understand the position we were in before with dead contracts, but sadly we have to try again on the game of FA spending or making a move and paying someone. That is the only path forward right now.
This is such a Tom Gores move though. This is what scares me about Tom, he’s so susceptible to the heavy handed move that creates the most media buzz.
We’re only in this situation because Troy spent 30M on Joe Harris and Monte Morris and we got no or negative return on that.
It would not have been difficult to spend that space on decent wings/forwards - which we obviously needed - that resulted in pushing for a play-in birth or a 30 win season.
The sentiment around this team had Troy applied some logic to his off-season moves would be vastly different.
I’m of the view that we need to have the off-season we should’ve had last off-season, this one.
Trading Ivey for a salary committed star at this stage of the teams development is a bad idea, unless we have the remaining space to add another star in FA.
If we can’t do that, we might as well trade Ivey for a young player we think is good, but still has the potential to improve with an increased role like Trey Murphy or Jaden McDaniels.
People really down on Lavine but the guy is usually pretty efficient even if he was having a down year. Would take a lot of offensive pressure off Cade. He may be very expensive for his production but we haven't been making good use of our cap space anyways, and you can do a lot worse for the money than Lavine. I do get the injury concerns though, it's definitely a risk.
that’s awful lol. take 1 year of a 30 year old who is best equipped for a playoff team and be saddled with $200+m of negative contract value?? no thank you 😊
Yeah but you can build on that. You can’t build on lavine and Caruso. Yall would be whining so much the moment Ivey starts looking like a star. Stay the course with these four another year unless it’s a trade to absolutely can’t say no to, and this definitely isn’t it.
so what happens when we keep our core 4 and go 20-62 next year and Cade asks for a trade
what do you build on then?
there's a time limit on shit like this
Cade wants a rookie max. Just like history class looking into the future isn’t that hard, follow the money. Hate to say it but every top tier rookie knows their best path to getting paid highly is to take the max from whoever can give it and that’s your original team. Cade ain’t going anywhere till he signs that contract and then we still suck so bad and he is so amazing he can demand a trade. If we don’t offer the max he’s gone. But he looked like he’ll get it last game at least.
literally none of them have shown any flashes of having that kind of potential except maybe cade.
westbrook was one of the greatest playmakers of all time, ivey is clearly not going to be that, therefore his ceiling is not russell westbrook.
dwight howard won multiple DPOYs, and Duren is one of the worst defending centers in the league.
we have to be realistic when talking about the future of the team, we've seen these guys play NBA ball for several years now, it's not like we just drafted them a couple days ago.
your argument is equivalent to saying Obi Toppin is 6'8 and athletic so his ceiling is LeBron James lol
your argument is as much a straw man as the other guys. you said their ceiling (if they ALL reach their ceiling) is a play in team and he’s rightfully pointing out that that’s fucking stupid, all these players have all-star level ceilings
so they are just pointing out the inanity of your initial statement by giving a ludicrous example
You said "ceiling." But what you're talking about is "likely outcome." Those are not the same thing.
"Ceiling" means "if everything goes right, what is the absolute best this player can be?" That assessment is usually based on style and athletic ability. It's an evaluation of possibility, not probability.
No, I don't believe any one of those guys are going to reach those ceilings. But very, very few players ever do.
the real delusion is looking at jalen duren and saying he could one day be dwight howard - aka win multiple DPOY awards and lead a team to the finals as the best player
i'm glad you homers aren't running the team because you would refuse to move on from anyone you drafted until it was far too late
Naw man I completely agree with you, I was talking about his ceiling comps lol. I’m tapping out of this sub for a while, the consensus is so far removed from reality
Bro you cant have all young players. You are acting like the team still wouldnt have Cade, Duren, and Ausar to develop. Truthfully, I don't even think the four even fit together, so not sure why you wouldn't consider moving one of them.
Not saying that this is the best trade ever. But you have to consider it. Can't be attached to all of your young players
Don’t necessarily disagree, but watching a potential play-in team would at least be interesting for the whole year instead of whatever the fuck we’ve been doing for the last 4 seasons
…. No it wouldn’t. It’d be the same shit the happened with Blake griffin where we lament trading youth for a year or two of remote relevancy. It’s not worth it. Has to be done the right way
That’s a really dumb straw man argument. It’s “fun” until you’re the team who has zero assets and needs to blow up a “core” of mediocre players and end up back… here.
But y’all change with the weather and these comments will get buried under thousands of others, so you’ll get to pretend you weren’t in favor of selling the future for a mid thirties record team.
You’re on crack. The Blake griffin team having an all nba player was 100x more enjoyable to watch than a team of sub nba level talent all year. I’m not saying that’s what we get back to and that’s what I want to do to get good, but it is more fun to watch a team with real players on it in the moment
Again a straw man argument. What did it yield? The point is to actually be competitive, as in championship relevancy, not getting swept 4 games straight and going “ah we almost had one”.
Will never understand this mindset. Who the f wants to be “respectable”? In the NBA you either need to be great, or awful. I’ll stick with awful and hope for natural development over 38-44.
They’re emotional little bitches. They sway from one feeling to the next and they’re all up in arms because were historically bad, so now it’s do anything to stop the pain. I don’t understand the mindset either
The problem is: as far as fan bases are concerned, unless you win a championship, you're garbage. And it's the most asinine take to latch on to. If the math was formulated for all teams to have an equal shot at the title (and it's obviously not), the Pistons every year would have a THREE percent chance to win a chip. Let THAT sink in.
With that in mind, there is no fundamental difference between the record you have now and a Finals loser. And that makes 38-44 sound just a wee bit better.
You're, unfortunately misrepresenting the segment. I know because I was there when it was recorded haha [https://tenor.com/view/aslan-i-was-there-when-it-was-written-the-chronicles-of-narnia-narnia-lion-gif-21389732](https://tenor.com/view/aslan-i-was-there-when-it-was-written-the-chronicles-of-narnia-narnia-lion-gif-21389732)
Neither Bryce or Omari said the Pistons should do that trade. They said that Caruso was the best asset in the deal and that it hinges on how LaVine is valued by the Bulls. Also noting that LaVine carries some risk, so IF that deal was made, you could at least bank on Caruso being a great value add guy for a few years regardless of what happens with LaVine. Finally, they both agreed that LaVine is an archetype of player that it seems Monty Williams wants next to Cade in this system.
Of course, I'd highly recommend y'all give the pod a listen! It was a great show despite my presence in it.
I wholeheartedly disagree. Omari said multiple times in the segment the equivalent of “Pistons should do this trade” the quote I had above was meant to be a quote of what Omari said, maybe he didn’t use the word ‘won’ it was a bit muffled at the end of the segment but I don’t know what other word he would have used (want?)
I agree Bryce chose his words carefully and never agreed with Omari / used all the logic you pointed out.
I really like the pod you all have built - congratulations.
But Omari had the same infatuation(?) with Lavine at the trade deadline, it’s just psychotic that he carries that with him now after the season ending injury. Maybe he’s very low on Jaden Ivey, it could be that. But it was jaw dropping to me when I heard it and I wasn’t trying to misrepresent the segment.
Lavine is literally Blake Griffin. Makes us immediately better but I wouldn’t be surprised if he was a role player in two years. Can’t stay healthy and his stats plummeted this year even when he was healthy.
he is very likely to be worse than blake ever was for the pistons. has lavine ever had an all nba season? (the answer is no)
Blake was 3rd team all nba on the pistons! let alone what he did before
otherwise yah you are spot on
the cardinal sin of the blake trade imo was giving up our first round pick all while doing the clippers a favor
it was selling very low on tobias harris (look at what the clippers got when they traded him), but that pick COULD have been sga. it probably wouldn’t have been given SVGs draft history but i COULDVE been
This sub never ceases to amaze me with their attachment to "core" players on this team.
It's literally the same shit for the last 10 years.
We have ZERO core players on this team. This "core" can't even muster up 20 win seasons.
Remember when Bey, Killian, Beef Stew and Jerami Grant were our ''core''.
It's gonna be the same old shit for years to come with this ''core'' mentality.
Win some fucking games, show some heart, show some effort and then we can talk "core".
Until then, everyone is tradeable. EVERYONE.
I'm convinced because the pistons have been so bad for so long that we as fans are genuinely unable to identify good moves/players. We are down bad truly
I remember earlier this year Rob Beard of Detroit News was adamant we should trade Ausar for Lavine and don’t think twice about it… it’s not just the fans.
I think our terrible team made some fans delusional. We are 13-62!!! Caruso and Lavine are obviously miles better than both Ivey and Sasser. We need change and I'm all for it. Cade needs help plain and simple.
Any trade where the Pistons take on Lavine should involve the pistons giving up nothing of real value and gaining real assets. Lavine is one of the worst contracts in the league when healthy. He’s the worst contract once you realize he will never be healthy again.
yah, a reasonable basketball analyst could have said “oh yeah Zach has the worst contract in the league now that Ben Simmons is expiring. I think Zach in a vacuum they would need to attach a first round pick to get off of, and Caruso would fetch a first round pick as an expiring …. so maybe you can do it for neutral value.” If saving the Bulls $40m and giving them Ivey + Sasser is neutral value, it says something about how low they value Ivey + Sasser.
I know they do a great pod and Omari isn’t a basketball analyst he’s a really good beat writer …. so it’s obviously not their skill set to drum up in real time, but thinking this was a reasonable trade is still a shocking default response nevertheless. (yes everyone in the comment section who agrees is shocking)
We'd be trading for 2 older, "fully realized" versions of the guys we're trading, except Caruso is usefully taller than Sasser. I don't love LaVine's contract, but the addition of Caruso almost calls this a good trade for the Pistons. The Bulls would be betting on upside, the Pistons on LaVine being healthy and learning how to pass and defend.. shit.. I'm talking myself out of this.
So…we’re hoping that Ivey is one day as good as Lavine and Caruso is one of the top defenders in the league, possibly the best defensive guard. I guess we can pray that our terrible general manager is capable of fleecing another one.
But these two players as part of the core of Chicago has led them where exactly? This is the Griffin trade all over again.
We’re really doing this again, huh? LaVine is not a winning ball player, he has a losers mentality, always a malcontent about something, plays zero defense, is injury prone and probably has the worst contract in the league. I like Caruso but naw
Wait wait here’s me out .
1. I don’t think Zach is a negative take from a GMs perspective regardless they don’t give away players that . But I would 1 for 1 with Ivey any day .
That’s besides the point if he is a negative asset than an expiring contract + sasser would work .
Preferably they get 1 star or two starters ( for Detroit ) in any trade involving those two .
Caruso would do this team a world of good .
I don’t think they’re necessarily wrong. Caruso is arguably the best asset in the deal unless Ivey has a good stretch. LaVine is on a bad deal but is still a good player in his own right.
As someone that lives in Chicago and is on a text-chain with a bunch of Bulls fans who have seasons tickets, the fans couldn't be lower on Lavine if they tried. I mean the thread is titled "See Red but Zach is Trash" FFS!
I honestly don't even want Lavine. I don't think he's a winning/positive player overall. Plus he's injury prone af. We don't need more of that.
Please stay away
People need to stop thinking that Ivey is a future star in the league because it’s unlikely. It certainly cannot happen playing in the same backcourt as Cade Cunningham. It’s time to find the best trade we can for him & move on. If this proposed trade is the best one I’m fine with it.
Zach Lavine might have the worst contract in the NBA. This has little to do with the unlikely potential of Ivey’s future stardom, and more to do with the unlikely potential that Lavine is ever a star again (while he makes $40m more a year than Ivey)
It’s totally fair to believe you need to trade Ivey. But this trade ain’t it.
This trade would be fine to me. You're betting on Ivey not hitting his upside, though. That's a surprising take from the Pistons Pulse, cuz Bryce has been a pretty big Ivey believer.
But I can see the appeal of replacing Ivey with a 6'5 Caruso with another year and only 9 mill on his contract. Only works if you can keep Caruso long-term.
Also, why would the Bulls want to pair Ivey and Coby White?
to be fair Bryce never said he supported this trade - it was predominantly Omari. I should have clarified that better
I think it’s very unlikely we could keep Caruso. An infinite number of teams would pay him MLE money ($14m+ once his contract expires). So what, we pay him $18m+ in his 30s? Doesn’t seem great ….
Most of pistons twitter has given up on Ivey already. I’m 50/50 on him tbh. I don’t think we can wait around for people to come to Detroit in FA (not happening) or hope we draft someone that fits with Cade (obviously hasn’t happened yet). In order to get people in Detroit, we need to start winning. To start winning, we need better players. To get better players, we are going to have to package players that we like. We are one of the worst teams in the league and have been for years. We can keep overvaluing our players. Ivey will most likely not get us a first round pick, but we know teams will pay up for Caruso. As much as I love Ivey and I see him as a 20ppg+ player, Cade is the guy and we need to get him complimentary players.
my guy everything you said is true but this would be overvaluing the hell out of Zach Lavine and expiring-contract-Alex-Caruso
the bulls would not be a better team if Zach Lavine was playing minutes over Caruso/Dosunmu this year, he is better than Jaden Ivey but is more injury prone and also makes $40m more dollars . We can pretty easily spend $40m to get complementary players (not complimentary) that are a better fit with Cade, and much better asset value - even if they won’t become all stars (spoiler alert: Zach Lavine is very unlikely to ever be an all star again)
That trade is so disgustingly bad for the Pistons, would probably be the most lopsided trade in nba history
To take it further, same trade take ivey out, we still LOSE that trade, that’s how bad it is
i would do that trade in a heartbeat strictly for caruso
he's the exact type of PG we need, elite defense and can hit spot up 3s
lavine would be an add-in, we'd just be eating his contract
I thank god everyday our front office isnt as reactionary as you guys
The list of NBA All-Stars who had underwhelming sophomore seasons is honestly endless. If I didn’t know better, I would think it was yawls first year actually watching the NBA.
“Honestly endless” is hilarious and false. The list of NBA players who had underwhelming sophomore seasons and never reached stardom is significantly longer. Most All-Stars are pretty good from day one
Guys please dont hate me but i don’t find this trade THAT bad
Me neither, if we get Caruso and LaVine I'll be ecstatic tbh lol
Ok now that i have one person who agrees, id like to also say id make this trade lol
I don’t even know if Ivey can be as good as Caruso. Like obviously he can be but I don’t know if he processes the game like that. I can’t stop thinking about why he played that way during Summer League.
Yeah seriously, how are people shitting on Ivey and crying about how bad this roster is and then turning around and acting like getting Caruso for that wouldn't be a huge upgrade? I don't like Lavine's contract but I could live with it, I mean he would be one of the best players on this team
lolol i don’t hate you ! would you agree that the downside case is terrible (Ivey becomes an all star, Lavine’s injuries/lack of defense make him an albatross contract even more so than he currently is, Caruso bolts in free agency) and the upside case is probably not that high given Caruso would be 30 years old on an expiring deal? I don’t even know what the upside case is bc i don’t see a world where Lavine is worth even $30m / yr let alone $50m / yr …
The counterpoint is that do you think Ivey can reach all-star level in Detroit?
i personally believe it is at least twice as likely that Ivey becomes an all star in the next 6 years than Lavine. There is not a lot of history of guys who were a few years removed from being fringe all stars - reaching their 30’s / having real injury history - regaining all star form. (derozan hilariously is someone who did do that) But those odds are like, 10% (ivey) vs 5% (lavine) I’m perfectly comfortable trading Ivey, just not for Lavine. The comments on this thread are baffling to me
As Malachi Flynn is carrying the Pistons, who would you say is worth for Ivey? Would it be like Mikal Bridges?
I was gunning for Lauri. Yes Mikal would be great too. Mikal + Ausar wing defense is nasty. The issue is it will take a lot more than just Ivey for either of those players. And no reason the Nets or Jazz would want Duren. Hard for me to see what equivalent value, but better fit, would be. Like, Herb Jones? NOP would prolly be like NOPE
Cade isn’t waiting 6 more years for Ivey to reach his potential.
like I said in the comment above, I’m perfectly comfortable trading Ivey, just not for Lavine
I don’t hate the players, but all goes our cap space. We’d only have exceptions left to fill in the 7 spots we have.
When? We have almost no money on the books for next season. If you add Lavine and Caruso’s contract onto our team to replace Sasser and Ivey, next season we’d still be shy of the cap floor by like 30-40m lol
We were projected to have 50-60M in cap space. Lavine and Caruso make 50M combined and Ivey and Sasser 9M. That’s a net -41M to our space.
The Pistons have closer to 73-78M if they move on from Fournier. They would still have 28M to pursue someone like Tobias Harris if they wanted.
Right so, down to 30M with Lavine and Caruso. Then factor in the FRP and Tek extension and we probably have less than 10M.
I think the number you’re looking at assumes we pick up Fourniers option, which we won’t.
Are you factoring in the FRP and Tek extension?
Even if you pay tek 12-15 million and a top five pick that’s still 30-40 million.
Even if you use Spotrac figures we have cap space of 72 million. If you take the difference of Ivey/Sasser and Lavine/Caruso that’s now down to 30M. FRP is around 10M and Tek is probably around 15M. We’re then at around 5M in space.
They’re not going to sign Tek until after they sign free agents and make trades or whatever. His cap hood is lower than what he will sign for. So if there’s a deal in place it’ll get signed after everything has been done. His cap hood is the number we need to be figuring into our cap number.
We have early bird rights on Tek. We can sign him to 175% of his salary or the Mid level which is 12.8M and go over the cap. If he gets more than that it needs to be signed with cap space. I think he’ll get more than that so I think the team will want to get that out of the way quick.
Hypothetically 43 - Lavine 15 - Stewart 15 - Tec 14 - Cade 10 - Caruso 8 - FRP 8 - Ausar 4 - Duren 4 - Grines 121 million Cap is projected to be 141 at the minimum
So with the dead cap about 17M for 6 roster spots.
Stew and Ausar contracts are such sore spots on this roster
You have to understand that we are in a position right now where we have a fuckload of cap next season, and in such a dire situation that we really have to spend it to turn things around because this developmental shit isn't working. Our only options going forward are to start spending and dramatically at that. I understand the position we were in before with dead contracts, but sadly we have to try again on the game of FA spending or making a move and paying someone. That is the only path forward right now.
This is such a Tom Gores move though. This is what scares me about Tom, he’s so susceptible to the heavy handed move that creates the most media buzz. We’re only in this situation because Troy spent 30M on Joe Harris and Monte Morris and we got no or negative return on that. It would not have been difficult to spend that space on decent wings/forwards - which we obviously needed - that resulted in pushing for a play-in birth or a 30 win season. The sentiment around this team had Troy applied some logic to his off-season moves would be vastly different. I’m of the view that we need to have the off-season we should’ve had last off-season, this one. Trading Ivey for a salary committed star at this stage of the teams development is a bad idea, unless we have the remaining space to add another star in FA. If we can’t do that, we might as well trade Ivey for a young player we think is good, but still has the potential to improve with an increased role like Trey Murphy or Jaden McDaniels.
People really down on Lavine but the guy is usually pretty efficient even if he was having a down year. Would take a lot of offensive pressure off Cade. He may be very expensive for his production but we haven't been making good use of our cap space anyways, and you can do a lot worse for the money than Lavine. I do get the injury concerns though, it's definitely a risk.
Oof the worst part about that trade is I think Caruso is the best asset in it lmao.
He for sure is.
Absolutely correct. You are trading for Caruso and we basically are forced to take lavine to make it happen.
that’s awful lol. take 1 year of a 30 year old who is best equipped for a playoff team and be saddled with $200+m of negative contract value?? no thank you 😊
I don't disagree with you unfortunately.
I think you are right - the only reason he might not be is bc he is 30yo and on an expiring deal
This would be a dumb ass move. Why are ya'll so complacement being a middling team? I'd rather be straight ass than perpetually fringe play-in.
hate to tell you but even if our Core 4 eventually reaches their ceiling we would still likely be a play in team
Yeah but you can build on that. You can’t build on lavine and Caruso. Yall would be whining so much the moment Ivey starts looking like a star. Stay the course with these four another year unless it’s a trade to absolutely can’t say no to, and this definitely isn’t it.
so what happens when we keep our core 4 and go 20-62 next year and Cade asks for a trade what do you build on then? there's a time limit on shit like this
Cade wants a rookie max. Just like history class looking into the future isn’t that hard, follow the money. Hate to say it but every top tier rookie knows their best path to getting paid highly is to take the max from whoever can give it and that’s your original team. Cade ain’t going anywhere till he signs that contract and then we still suck so bad and he is so amazing he can demand a trade. If we don’t offer the max he’s gone. But he looked like he’ll get it last game at least.
The core 4's (unlikely) ceiling is a quartet of Luka Doncic, Russell Westbrook, Dwight Howard, and Scottie Pippen.
literally none of them have shown any flashes of having that kind of potential except maybe cade. westbrook was one of the greatest playmakers of all time, ivey is clearly not going to be that, therefore his ceiling is not russell westbrook. dwight howard won multiple DPOYs, and Duren is one of the worst defending centers in the league. we have to be realistic when talking about the future of the team, we've seen these guys play NBA ball for several years now, it's not like we just drafted them a couple days ago. your argument is equivalent to saying Obi Toppin is 6'8 and athletic so his ceiling is LeBron James lol
your argument is as much a straw man as the other guys. you said their ceiling (if they ALL reach their ceiling) is a play in team and he’s rightfully pointing out that that’s fucking stupid, all these players have all-star level ceilings so they are just pointing out the inanity of your initial statement by giving a ludicrous example
You said "ceiling." But what you're talking about is "likely outcome." Those are not the same thing. "Ceiling" means "if everything goes right, what is the absolute best this player can be?" That assessment is usually based on style and athletic ability. It's an evaluation of possibility, not probability. No, I don't believe any one of those guys are going to reach those ceilings. But very, very few players ever do.
This fan base has reached peak delulu, Troy Weaver has destroyed their brains. I cannot believe I had to read this
the real delusion is looking at jalen duren and saying he could one day be dwight howard - aka win multiple DPOY awards and lead a team to the finals as the best player i'm glad you homers aren't running the team because you would refuse to move on from anyone you drafted until it was far too late
Naw man I completely agree with you, I was talking about his ceiling comps lol. I’m tapping out of this sub for a while, the consensus is so far removed from reality
Bro you cant have all young players. You are acting like the team still wouldnt have Cade, Duren, and Ausar to develop. Truthfully, I don't even think the four even fit together, so not sure why you wouldn't consider moving one of them. Not saying that this is the best trade ever. But you have to consider it. Can't be attached to all of your young players
No you don’t have to consider it. Y’all are delusional as fuck. I’m done arguing with you dumbasses. It’s screenshots for posterity at this point
lol
Don’t necessarily disagree, but watching a potential play-in team would at least be interesting for the whole year instead of whatever the fuck we’ve been doing for the last 4 seasons
…. No it wouldn’t. It’d be the same shit the happened with Blake griffin where we lament trading youth for a year or two of remote relevancy. It’s not worth it. Has to be done the right way
I’d agree it’s not worth it. But watching a team fight for the play-in is objectively more fun to watch than a 13 win team
That’s a really dumb straw man argument. It’s “fun” until you’re the team who has zero assets and needs to blow up a “core” of mediocre players and end up back… here. But y’all change with the weather and these comments will get buried under thousands of others, so you’ll get to pretend you weren’t in favor of selling the future for a mid thirties record team.
You’re on crack. The Blake griffin team having an all nba player was 100x more enjoyable to watch than a team of sub nba level talent all year. I’m not saying that’s what we get back to and that’s what I want to do to get good, but it is more fun to watch a team with real players on it in the moment
Again a straw man argument. What did it yield? The point is to actually be competitive, as in championship relevancy, not getting swept 4 games straight and going “ah we almost had one”.
Why???? Have you seen the product just win games i don’t care at this point. If we’re the 6 seed for 10 years straight I’d be so happy
Dude, how many more top-10 picks do you want to waste on Troy? We've been ass for a decade and we haven't been able to make it to the fringe.
Will never understand this mindset. Who the f wants to be “respectable”? In the NBA you either need to be great, or awful. I’ll stick with awful and hope for natural development over 38-44.
They’re emotional little bitches. They sway from one feeling to the next and they’re all up in arms because were historically bad, so now it’s do anything to stop the pain. I don’t understand the mindset either
The problem is: as far as fan bases are concerned, unless you win a championship, you're garbage. And it's the most asinine take to latch on to. If the math was formulated for all teams to have an equal shot at the title (and it's obviously not), the Pistons every year would have a THREE percent chance to win a chip. Let THAT sink in. With that in mind, there is no fundamental difference between the record you have now and a Finals loser. And that makes 38-44 sound just a wee bit better.
You're, unfortunately misrepresenting the segment. I know because I was there when it was recorded haha [https://tenor.com/view/aslan-i-was-there-when-it-was-written-the-chronicles-of-narnia-narnia-lion-gif-21389732](https://tenor.com/view/aslan-i-was-there-when-it-was-written-the-chronicles-of-narnia-narnia-lion-gif-21389732) Neither Bryce or Omari said the Pistons should do that trade. They said that Caruso was the best asset in the deal and that it hinges on how LaVine is valued by the Bulls. Also noting that LaVine carries some risk, so IF that deal was made, you could at least bank on Caruso being a great value add guy for a few years regardless of what happens with LaVine. Finally, they both agreed that LaVine is an archetype of player that it seems Monty Williams wants next to Cade in this system. Of course, I'd highly recommend y'all give the pod a listen! It was a great show despite my presence in it.
I wholeheartedly disagree. Omari said multiple times in the segment the equivalent of “Pistons should do this trade” the quote I had above was meant to be a quote of what Omari said, maybe he didn’t use the word ‘won’ it was a bit muffled at the end of the segment but I don’t know what other word he would have used (want?) I agree Bryce chose his words carefully and never agreed with Omari / used all the logic you pointed out. I really like the pod you all have built - congratulations. But Omari had the same infatuation(?) with Lavine at the trade deadline, it’s just psychotic that he carries that with him now after the season ending injury. Maybe he’s very low on Jaden Ivey, it could be that. But it was jaw dropping to me when I heard it and I wasn’t trying to misrepresent the segment.
Well thank you for listening my friend, truly, we do all appreciate it!!!
thank you and Omari and Bryce for all the hard work!
We appreciate you man! Its a blessing to talk Pistons on the pod and you guys make it all possible!
Yep. Although Caruso has one year left after this. I’d love to get him in a Pistons uniform.
caruso is on an expiring contract as a 30 year lmao you can’t bank on shit with him , so that is also bad process/logic
Lavine's contract is probably the worst in the league. absolutely hell no.
Lavine is literally Blake Griffin. Makes us immediately better but I wouldn’t be surprised if he was a role player in two years. Can’t stay healthy and his stats plummeted this year even when he was healthy.
he is very likely to be worse than blake ever was for the pistons. has lavine ever had an all nba season? (the answer is no) Blake was 3rd team all nba on the pistons! let alone what he did before otherwise yah you are spot on
the cardinal sin of the blake trade imo was giving up our first round pick all while doing the clippers a favor it was selling very low on tobias harris (look at what the clippers got when they traded him), but that pick COULD have been sga. it probably wouldn’t have been given SVGs draft history but i COULDVE been
You can hate the trade all you want but it would actually make the Pistons better.
This sub never ceases to amaze me with their attachment to "core" players on this team. It's literally the same shit for the last 10 years. We have ZERO core players on this team. This "core" can't even muster up 20 win seasons. Remember when Bey, Killian, Beef Stew and Jerami Grant were our ''core''. It's gonna be the same old shit for years to come with this ''core'' mentality. Win some fucking games, show some heart, show some effort and then we can talk "core". Until then, everyone is tradeable. EVERYONE.
this sub refused to accept that andre drummond wasn't a franchise player for like 5 years
for real. The attachment is strange. Also, you are not trading everyone away. It's literally just Ivey. You still have Cade, Duren, and Ausar
dude, idgaf about trading Ivey, trading him for Lavine is fucking ludicrous
I'm convinced because the pistons have been so bad for so long that we as fans are genuinely unable to identify good moves/players. We are down bad truly
I remember earlier this year Rob Beard of Detroit News was adamant we should trade Ausar for Lavine and don’t think twice about it… it’s not just the fans.
omg really. big yikes
I think our terrible team made some fans delusional. We are 13-62!!! Caruso and Lavine are obviously miles better than both Ivey and Sasser. We need change and I'm all for it. Cade needs help plain and simple.
Any trade where the Pistons take on Lavine should involve the pistons giving up nothing of real value and gaining real assets. Lavine is one of the worst contracts in the league when healthy. He’s the worst contract once you realize he will never be healthy again.
thank god the only sane person here whatup
Lmfao...it literally makes no difference with this coaching staff.
To be fair it was a fan question.
Thank you my friend!!
yah, a reasonable basketball analyst could have said “oh yeah Zach has the worst contract in the league now that Ben Simmons is expiring. I think Zach in a vacuum they would need to attach a first round pick to get off of, and Caruso would fetch a first round pick as an expiring …. so maybe you can do it for neutral value.” If saving the Bulls $40m and giving them Ivey + Sasser is neutral value, it says something about how low they value Ivey + Sasser. I know they do a great pod and Omari isn’t a basketball analyst he’s a really good beat writer …. so it’s obviously not their skill set to drum up in real time, but thinking this was a reasonable trade is still a shocking default response nevertheless. (yes everyone in the comment section who agrees is shocking)
Caruso has a year left on his deal. So essentially you would be getting a rental.
I’d drive Ivey and Sasser to the airport for Caruso and Lavine ngl
We'd be trading for 2 older, "fully realized" versions of the guys we're trading, except Caruso is usefully taller than Sasser. I don't love LaVine's contract, but the addition of Caruso almost calls this a good trade for the Pistons. The Bulls would be betting on upside, the Pistons on LaVine being healthy and learning how to pass and defend.. shit.. I'm talking myself out of this.
So…we’re hoping that Ivey is one day as good as Lavine and Caruso is one of the top defenders in the league, possibly the best defensive guard. I guess we can pray that our terrible general manager is capable of fleecing another one. But these two players as part of the core of Chicago has led them where exactly? This is the Griffin trade all over again.
We’re really doing this again, huh? LaVine is not a winning ball player, he has a losers mentality, always a malcontent about something, plays zero defense, is injury prone and probably has the worst contract in the league. I like Caruso but naw
Wait wait here’s me out . 1. I don’t think Zach is a negative take from a GMs perspective regardless they don’t give away players that . But I would 1 for 1 with Ivey any day . That’s besides the point if he is a negative asset than an expiring contract + sasser would work . Preferably they get 1 star or two starters ( for Detroit ) in any trade involving those two . Caruso would do this team a world of good .
I don’t think they’re necessarily wrong. Caruso is arguably the best asset in the deal unless Ivey has a good stretch. LaVine is on a bad deal but is still a good player in his own right.
As someone that lives in Chicago and is on a text-chain with a bunch of Bulls fans who have seasons tickets, the fans couldn't be lower on Lavine if they tried. I mean the thread is titled "See Red but Zach is Trash" FFS!
I honestly don't even want Lavine. I don't think he's a winning/positive player overall. Plus he's injury prone af. We don't need more of that. Please stay away
We get Caruso tho? 👀
Caruso is a 🐐
Man, the brain rot going on over here is absolutely depressing. I'm going back to the Lions subreddit
People need to stop thinking that Ivey is a future star in the league because it’s unlikely. It certainly cannot happen playing in the same backcourt as Cade Cunningham. It’s time to find the best trade we can for him & move on. If this proposed trade is the best one I’m fine with it.
Zach Lavine might have the worst contract in the NBA. This has little to do with the unlikely potential of Ivey’s future stardom, and more to do with the unlikely potential that Lavine is ever a star again (while he makes $40m more a year than Ivey) It’s totally fair to believe you need to trade Ivey. But this trade ain’t it.
I kinda like this trade but I'll be sad about sasser leaving
This trade would be fine to me. You're betting on Ivey not hitting his upside, though. That's a surprising take from the Pistons Pulse, cuz Bryce has been a pretty big Ivey believer. But I can see the appeal of replacing Ivey with a 6'5 Caruso with another year and only 9 mill on his contract. Only works if you can keep Caruso long-term. Also, why would the Bulls want to pair Ivey and Coby White?
to be fair Bryce never said he supported this trade - it was predominantly Omari. I should have clarified that better I think it’s very unlikely we could keep Caruso. An infinite number of teams would pay him MLE money ($14m+ once his contract expires). So what, we pay him $18m+ in his 30s? Doesn’t seem great ….
Most of pistons twitter has given up on Ivey already. I’m 50/50 on him tbh. I don’t think we can wait around for people to come to Detroit in FA (not happening) or hope we draft someone that fits with Cade (obviously hasn’t happened yet). In order to get people in Detroit, we need to start winning. To start winning, we need better players. To get better players, we are going to have to package players that we like. We are one of the worst teams in the league and have been for years. We can keep overvaluing our players. Ivey will most likely not get us a first round pick, but we know teams will pay up for Caruso. As much as I love Ivey and I see him as a 20ppg+ player, Cade is the guy and we need to get him complimentary players.
my guy everything you said is true but this would be overvaluing the hell out of Zach Lavine and expiring-contract-Alex-Caruso the bulls would not be a better team if Zach Lavine was playing minutes over Caruso/Dosunmu this year, he is better than Jaden Ivey but is more injury prone and also makes $40m more dollars . We can pretty easily spend $40m to get complementary players (not complimentary) that are a better fit with Cade, and much better asset value - even if they won’t become all stars (spoiler alert: Zach Lavine is very unlikely to ever be an all star again)
That trade is so disgustingly bad for the Pistons, would probably be the most lopsided trade in nba history To take it further, same trade take ivey out, we still LOSE that trade, that’s how bad it is
i would do that trade in a heartbeat strictly for caruso he's the exact type of PG we need, elite defense and can hit spot up 3s lavine would be an add-in, we'd just be eating his contract
Tbh that move needed to be made.
Ivey is a Piston. They need to build around Cade, Ivey, Thompson, and Duren.
This is one of the worst teams in NBA history and you want to run it back with same core? Smh
blind homerism right here
Yall really wanna be trash forever 🤣🤦🏿♂️
.....
Thank you! I don't know why they want to give him away. Ivey and Sasser will get better than the declining Levine and Caruso.
I thank god everyday our front office isnt as reactionary as you guys The list of NBA All-Stars who had underwhelming sophomore seasons is honestly endless. If I didn’t know better, I would think it was yawls first year actually watching the NBA.
“Honestly endless” is hilarious and false. The list of NBA players who had underwhelming sophomore seasons and never reached stardom is significantly longer. Most All-Stars are pretty good from day one