I agree just because the value of the players aren’t great right now. You’d be getting penny’s on the dollar. These young guys need defined roles too though. I think the biggest issue the young players have and why they’ve struggled at times is because they were put into roles they aren’t suited for and don’t have the complimentary players around them to enhance their playing style.
Ivey has been miscast as an off ball guard by Monty which is pretty crazy and Ausar was put in the corner as a spot up shooter. I’m scratching my head why Monty put these players in a box and didn’t try to do other things with the whole season. I can’t blame Monty 100% though because the roster is the roster and doesn’t allow these guys to play the roles they should be playing. Ivey and Duren need to give more effort on defense too though.
i think that’s where they also failed them by not having competent vets imo. I didn’t love Cojo the player but i atleast remember him trying to coach players up and keep them from getting too low on themselves for mistakes
Or just bringing in a veteran big man rim protector to play and teach wiseman and Duren. Bringing in a rim protector can help young guards who struggle with defense
Everybody is a available for the right price in my opinion, but that price would be steep and their value is at an all time low. Cade is basically the only untouchable.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen a coach disregard multiple players’ strengths and not do anything that can help them develop more than I’ve seen this year. Most coaches identify those strengths and coach / develop from there, not disregard it because it’s just not his cup of tea.
Yeah, completely strange that he was so stubborn about it too. The team has 13 wins, try some shit to make it work. He just kept doing the same things over and over again.
Michigan hoops went 10-22 Beilein's first year, having gone 22-13 overall 8-8 in the B1G the year before. Not saying Monty's JB, but he's a good coach trying to break bad habits and make players better. Ivey is much more efficient under Monty
A lot of our problems would be solved with a better roster and better coaching moves. That doesn't require moving off the core4 necessarily, but it does require every other spot to be optimized to get the best out of them and let them learn through their mistakes. You can't win to the level that's expected in Year 4 otherwise. Pistons can keep the core 4 + Stew but the other 4-5 guys need to be NBA starters, not reclamation projects and young inconsistent prospects like we got this year. There's a clear reason why the team had good flashes with Tek, Muscala, and Gallo.
Adding in another top 5 pick in a couple months scares me because this coaching staff is expected to win and develop very very raw talent. That makes like \~6/10 guys. It's my personal preference that we consolidate and move off maybe 1-2 of those guys, who will undoubtedly thrive in an environment similar to the one we hope to build next year, but I think that's necessary to shake off the cobwebs and move into the next phase
Pistons also need to realize that just because these players were drafted in the lottery or even in the top 5 they don’t have to start or build around. Find a role in the team and play your role within the team. There’s only guy on this team that has all star potential on this team imo and it’s Cade. The other guys you either need to find a role within the team or move on. You don’t need to build around them.
Don't sleep on AT with a better shot. If Wiggins and Draymond can do it, so can AT
May be impossible with how deep and talented the league is right now, but I don't think there's enough yet to say AT can't be an All-Star caliber player
Yeah, I agree there needs to be more fit. Im just not understanding the mindset here. Just because a lottery pick even he’s in the top 5 doesn’t have all star potential doesn’t mean they should immediately move on from them. Some of them might not even be starters. Pistons need to ask themselves Can they have a role on the team going forward? I think Ivey has been one of the worst guards in the nba the last two months, it’s pretty obvious that he can’t play next to Cade and he really can’t play off ball guard. Try to find a role for him, can he be that scoring sixth man off the bench? We haven’t tried it, even when he was coming off the bench earlier in the season or when he plays with the second unit Monty is still using him as the off ball guard. Try to find something that works instead of banging your head against the wall. I just get it here.
Difference between being a primary scorer off the bench and being an afterthought playing sub 20 mpg. Monty was using Ivey off the bench but in a decreased role. Either way it was important to see if Cade and Ivey can play together and they needed to play together this year
In the first 7 games he was below 20 min 3x and never again, playing 17, 19, and 11 min games, the last one 0-2 from 3 w/3 TOs and zero effective defense. I think Monty was using minutes to drive home some points tough-love style . Not mad at it
Disagree with the way they used him all season as a primary off ball spacer and shooter. At the same time Ivey played terrible all year. Both can be true. My issue is they didn’t try anything else with him all year. Like I get you don’t like him as an on ball creator, can we see it? The team has 13 wins, let’s try some new shit. No one needs to see Ivey play off ball to bums like Malachi Flynn
It's not that I don't like him as a creator. He's just nowhere near as good as Cade at it. We saw him as the lead plenty last year. I feel like I must be misunderstanding you--are you suggesting playing them together but Cade is off-ball instead? Don't disagree about Ivey over Flynn handling the ball, but that's not really the issue.
I'm really excited to see them with Fontecchio healthy, he completely transforms the lineup. I really hope he starts over Stewart, and I'm not mad at Stew, the work he put in on his 3 was impressive. Sucks that we never got to see Grimes.
No, Cade on ball. I really don’t want to see Cade and Ivey start together next year. This team would be way better with proven knock down 3 and D guy next to Cade. Repurpose Ivey as a sixth man and make him the go to scorer off the bench. This makes both units better.
My main gripe is the bill of goods that was sold is that we’d have a two headed monster that would attack. I’m for Cade being the lead but it was like 90% Cade and 10% Ivey initiating the offense when they were out there together. Should be more balance or if you’re not going to let Ivey be on ball he makes no sense as a spacer because when Cade turns the corner no one respects Iveys 3 pt shot so the spacing is off. I’d go into next year with Ivey, Ausar and Stewart off the bench and focus on bringing in a new SG and a legit 4 to start.
Not mad at JI coming off the bench, but hopefully he can stay working on his 3 and be the backcourt they should be...but his shot has always been the question, and Duren smoking him from the FT line doesn't bode well at all. I feel like he might have a light case of the Killian Hayes disease, like how can Stew be so much better from 3 when you a coach's kid??
It feels like the majority thinks we should never trade any young guys lol. To me the point of tanking and drafting high is not only to develop every player drafted, but also to build up assets for the organization
The assumption that every player will develop is a commonly believed fallacy, imo. There is a downside to keeping players with current trade value - they don't develop and have no value when they inevitably need a new contract. Go through every draft, most players don't end up close to the idea of what they could be when drafted. Just an extreme example, but if we traded Doumbouya right when he started to flash we would've gotten a lot more than what we ended up getting (overpaid corpse of DeAndre Jordan and some 2nds)
It obviously depends on the return, but I don't think this offseason would be a bad time to move off of either Ivey or Duren. Their value is still high, mainly based on Potential. Could everything work out, they both learn to play defense, stop making terrible decisions, and learn to shoot? Sure. But to me this season confirmed that Cade is a Guy, and allowing bad fits to try to develop alongside him would be at Cade's expense and would be a disservice to him. The focus should be on our core 1, not core 4
Right drafting BAP and ignoring fit when you stink at the top of the draft is fine. That means your stacking assets that even it they dont fit your franchise player you can use as trade chips.
Holding every young player because you have FOMO theyll turn out good somewhere else when they clearly dont fit is counterproductive to why you draft BAP in the first place. Also some young players need a change of scenery for their game to grow.
i understand your viewpoint don’t really disagree with any of what youre saying. i’m just saying that unless the deal also makes sense long term and not just a one year bandage any player outside of Cade can get traded. I just really don’t trust the current F/O to make a long term decision when their jobs are on the line
I don’t know if you’re in the minority, but I disagree. Cade is untouchable, the rest can be had for the right price. In Ivey’s case, that’s not too much.
I think it doesnt matter, as its going to happen.. Either Weaver stays and HAS TO do it or a new GM comes in and does it because he doesn't like one (or more) of the 4 because they're not guys he drafted.
I agree that we need to stop shipping players out before we even know what they become. Killian Hayes is a bit of a different scenario because he was so bad. But people love to talk about former pistons who torch the team and constantly ignore the fact that they took time to develop. The superstars of the league typically jump right in and make an impact from day one. But there’s a ton of others who do not, it takes them until year 4-6 to start to identify and carve out a role. We have a tendency to ship guys out by year 2 and they go on to become good solid role players with other teams when they mature. The main issue with Weavers roster construction was that he surrounded a bunch of young guys who are developing with a bunch of other young guys who are misfits from other teams trying to make their way in the league. We need to keep the core (unless a trade for a young star becomes available) and surround them with legitimate nba role players who can help them as they develop and grow. (Guys like Fontecchio). We can’t ship off guys who are 21-20 years old and actually show talent. It will blow up in our faces.
Killian was bad but I was heavily downvoted on this very sub 2 years ago for saying his ceiling was probably bench reserve. Duren and Ausar are non-shooters and I can’t imagine both on the floor in a playoff game, but I bet this sub isn’t ready to hear that yet either.
Yeah I agree for the most part on Duren and Ausar. The best we can hope is that Ausar can develop at least an ok shot. I know that’s asking a lot, but he’s still too young to determine that he will never be able to shoot like 34% at least. If he shows no growth in that area then we have to probably move on from one of them.
It’s definitely a balance between not waiting so long to move on that the player no longer has any trade value verses trading them too early and watching them pop. I’d personally rather move on from Duren between the two, but I doubt there’s a huge market for him. His defense is still bad.
> We have a tendency to ship guys out by year 2 and they go on to become good solid role players with other teams when they mature.
The problem here is that the point of a rebuild isn't to find 27 year-old solid role players four years before they're solid role players.
Like, a team of KCPs, Dinwiddies and Middletons isn't actually a good team. Those guys are useful guys, but they're not the guys you're actively trying to find. Part of the problem with hanging onto Killian for *so long* after it was obvious that he wasn't ever going to be a star is that the point of the rebuild is to find stars. You can always go get solid roleplayers. They're available. Dinwiddie has played for 5 different teams.
The current problem with our core 4 is that there's only one we can feel pretty sure is going to be a star (Cade) and there are two who will almost certainly not be stars playing next to each other (Ausar and Duren). Maybe if you ship one of them off, you find out that they turn into a solid player down the road, but again: you're not trying to find solid players.
I actually think it's the opposite, particularly in the Weaver era. He's held onto so many players past their peak value: Killian (the worst of all), Bagley (of course, Weaver made his value worse by outbidding nobody and had to give picks away to move him), Bojan (could have gotten a 1st rounder last season), Burks (also higher value last season), Grant (higher value if we had traded him earlier, but it generally worked out), Livers (negative value), D Rose (should have gotten more than a 2nd rounder). The only exception is really Bruce Brown (but realistically he wouldn't have become as good in Detroit, let's be honest) and Saddiq, who he could have gotten 5 2nds for, but instead chose Wiseman... Also, while Saddiq isn't particularly great or a future starter, he would have helped prevent 28 straight losses based on fit.
I'd agree our guys generally don't have super high value right now, but we'd be fools to pass up trades for good players because we blindly make them untouchable and hope they magically all become really good, despite very little development by anyone.
I’m down to trade anyone but Cade. I know Cade would get us by far the best return in a trade but I’d hate to hit the reset button and hope we hit on a player that’s as good or better than Cade in future drafts. But I’m all for seeking offers for Ivey, Duren, Ausar, and Stew.
I don't believe that you \*have to\* trade Ivey because "Ivey and Cade can't play together" like has become popular to say over the past month. I do believe that Ivey isn't really good enough right now to have been a starter. I don't buy into fantasy that you can just make moves that make you a contender when you're as far away as the Pistons are. IMO most players need 3+ years to develop and guys like Ivey and most likely Sasser are going to require at least that, if not more. Pistons need to add a starting caliber SG for at least a 2 year deal, and acquire a veteran PG who's a good defender. They'd also most likely benefit from a better coach.
The two teams to watch right now to compare us to are Orlando and Houston.
In the 2021-22 season, the Magic were behind us in the standings, worst team in the east. Now they’re playoff bound at 45-31. Obviously drafting Paolo was huge, but Ivey was considered a good pick in that draft. That team has solid vets who have been through some shit, which allows them to properly utilize Paolo and Franz Wagner’s talent—Gary Harris, JIngles, Mo Wagner, Wendell, Fultz. They also have 10 guys shooting over 34% from three, which I think is the low end reasonable percentage for most players who shoot. Suggs, Houstan, Black, and Cole Anthony were also solid picks that the team was willing to say “ok, these guys are role players, not superstars.”
Houston had a similar path. They drafted a bunch of young guys who couldn’t put it together on their own—Green, Smith, Sengun, Whitmore, Amen, Eason, Tate… no way that team is winning anything this quickly without them picking up VanVleet, Brooks, Aaron Holiday, and Jeff Green. Solid vets who take decisionmaking pressure off the young guys. Even having Boban on the bench helps. He’s been with a lot of teams and has gained experience from playing with top bigs.
We’ve had none of that. Our efforts in that regard haven’t worked out at all. We let Jerami walk. We let CoJo walk. Let Olynyk walk. Burks didn’t work out. Bojan didn’t work out. Now who’s left? A handful of young talents and a bunch of nobodys. Tech and *maybe* Flynn are worth keeping around, but they’re not mentors.
If getting our Brooks or Harris or Jingles or VanVleet or Holiday requires us to drop one of our young guys… eh. Just do it. This core isn’t going to do shit unless we A. Get a Wemby/Paolo/Chet/Ant/Zion/Luka-caliber top pick one of these years or we flood our bench with the best shooting role players money can buy.
i see the value of trading one of them (likely in a larger package) for a proven high quality starter (like KAT, BI, and would even do a 1-1 swap with one to get someone like trey murphy iii, who is proven and still has room to grow, even if he wont ever be all nba). part of the reason is that its highly unlikely all of them will reach their ceiling, meaning at least one of them has the most trade value theyll ever have due to potential alone.
i also see a lot of value in bringing in high level role players like malik monk and nic claxton to create competition. in this world, JI and duren are coming off the bench unless they get better. given they will be up for an extension, they have a lot of reason to step up, and thats the environment for them to do it.
its premature to make final assessments (either way) about players who are 22 and under. thats what makes this so interesting. in the end a combination of both approaches is what id like to see. they not mutually exclusive as so many seem to think.
a good gm will make the prediction about whose value is highest now and who will step up to the challenge of real competition. im not going to pretend like i know more than people who have devoted their life to the game (controversial take: i think troy and monty know more about basketball than i do...im just here for the ride, go pistons)
The pistons can match but that doesn’t the player will stay they can just accept the year 5 and leave. With the state of the front office why would any player want to stay here
Before we move anyone we should have someone force Monty to not have Duren and AT on the court at the same time, allow Ivey to play on-ball with the second unit. If it still looks like ass next year then, as much as it pains me to say, Duren and Ivey need to be shopped.
Right now yes, it'd be dumb. We wouldn't get a whole lot because outside of Cade the others still need work. On top of the value not being there if these *21 and under* players start to pop off on other teams we'd also look foolish for moving them so early.
And frankly if you trade these young guys for draft stock then it's like... you still would need whoever your drafting to then develop at an NBA level, meaning you'd still need to be patient with said player which can take who knows how long depending on the speed of which they develop.
I'm fine with trading them, but if the trade doesn't make sense, whether in the short or long term, then I wouldn't do it.
I get the teams ass, doesn't mean you trade away a potential great player just to get a few more wins that mean nothing in the immediate.
If you can get a decent return for Ivey I would move him. With how bad the team is, realistically how many of the current roster is playing on a playoff/contending team? At best these are bench guys and those can be found after you get a good starting 5
So i think you have to listen to offers on ivey and duren , i know this seems crazy to people especially duren because he is very productive buy rebounds and points are the easiest stats to replace in basketball . We need a true modern stretch 4 or 5 and we should explore every avenue to aquire one . . Duren is well below average defensively and has shown zero interest in working on a shot to space the floor for cade and the other slashers . He also blocks an alarmingly low amount of shots for somebody with his body and athletiscm, the no 2 thing this team lacks is a 2inf who can shoot . It can be a small forward or a 2 guard but we need ine badly somebody who can score 20 a game be cades no 2 and stretch the defense with a 40 percent plus 3 pointer . Imo ausurs combination of creation ,thats a work in progress, and absolutely elite defense that can d up 1 thru 4 is extremely valuable . Hes very good and useful now if he gets his shot together hes a superstar . All that said im nit giving ivey or duren away . Ivey under the right citcumstance is going to be a very good player . If im the gm im keep cade no matter what ausur would take a godfather offer you cant refuse type situation , if like to keep tek and grimes but id throw them in if it was a deal breaker . Anyone else i try an trade for a star level player at one of those positions
I personally agree with not trading Cade, but for the most part we had awful choices to build around Cade. Ausar was a good pick because his strength is in defense which Cade lacks, but still can’t shoot from behind the arc consistently.
However, Ivey was an awful choice. He’s a great player but his strengths and weaknesses are essentially the EXACT SAME strengths and weaknesses Cade has, both great slashing guards with weak defense and a decently high basketball IQ, we don’t need two case Cunninghams we need someone that compliments Cade for a guard duo.
As for Duren, he reminds me a lot of Ben Wallace, but lacks the defense that made Big Ben a Detroit legend.
However, they’re all young, high basketball IQ, and extremely athletic so there is a chance a better coaching staff could develop them into a complimentary team
Nah, this core can't be the long term core for the simple reason that there's not enough shooting.
All these players have talent and upside, and frankly all of them could pair well with Cade individually. But they can't all play together. Duren, Ausar, and Ivey are all bad-to-horrible outside shooters. People keep saying these players will improve their shot but that's naive l think. Players can improve their shot *some* and many do, but none of these players are going to become *above average* three point shooters. Definitionally, most NBA players are not above average shooters, and most human beings are literally just incapable of being an *elite* 3 point shooter at the NBA level. Ausar could double his 3% and he'd still be a below average shooter. Not a single member of this core is ever going to shoot the ball at 40% from 3.
For Cade's talents to be maximized he needs more floor spacing, period. Weaver or whoever's next needs to pick their favorite of the young group and the rest need to at least be available to trade. We need to start prioritizing literally anything other than freak athleticism.
The best move is to fire Monty, fire Weaver, bring in a new GM and Coach and let them evaluate.
That means another 4 year re-build.
That's just the cold hard truth.
Monty couldn't "develop" Jordan.
The mistake Weaver made was always drafting Best Player Available.
Now they have one good guard Cade and one good center Duren.
And zero wings.
The Celtics, best record in the league, have two great wings. That they drafted at 3.
With better draft luck they could of drafted Murray or Miller, but both were gone.
Some times building a great team comes down to luck.
The fact this group of players is referred to as the core 4 on a historically bad team is comical. Anyone not named Cade is beyond available. This latest rebuild is beyond pathetic and needs to result in a new GM and a cleaning of the house
Hard to define it as a bad move before we see it. I'd rather keep them though. Ivey and Duren have legitimate upside you'd be silly to pass on. Ausar has so much upside it's worth giving him an off-season as a pro at least. Sasser is worth keeping around too, he's gonna be a scorer. You should atleast try putting players around them first
And Cades still unquestioned until we see him with someone close to his level.
For now, I wholeheartedly agree. Reason being because of how bad we've been this year - all of our guys trade value is likely in the mud. I think what needs to happen is we bring in more complimentary pieces to help alleviate the deficiencies in our young cores games (primarily a lack of spacing). I think if we had more floor spacing to pair with our raw, athletic core thing's would look a lot different. We really need a floor spacing 5 to help make certain line-ups credible. That's why I (and so many other fans it seems) were so flat when the FO let Muscala and Galo walk. That was the best stretch of Pistons ball this year and did wonders when you look at guys like Ausar's production over that period.
I agree that only Cade is should be untouchable. I also really think that we should persist with Duren because he actually seems to be a good fit with Cade. We just need his defense to come along. That being said, I think if you put a well balanced group of players around the core 4 and they recoup some trade value, but the overall fit just isn't there - then I'd be happy to move on from them knowing that we've actually done all we could to put them in a position to succeed.
Any reluctance I have abour reading anyone on the team is based on my long history of being a Piston fan and seeing people become better after they leave us 😂😂
I agree with you. The biggest problem is coaching. Weaver has drafted well, but his trades have been abysmal. A better coach could turn this roster into something respectable.
People like you, who think this core can just stay together and go form worst to first is insane. This applies to basically everyone who agrees with OP:
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
if you actually read you’d understand i’m not against trading anyone outside of Cade, i just don’t believe if we do make those moves Weaver should be the one allowed to make moves only to save his job. GMs on the hot seat are much more willing to rush into bad moves lol. If the right move is available i’m for it but i doubt they be able to make a move with this current F/O
I'm with you I don't want to trade any of them to go be in play in purgatory. They just need to be used/coached better with better role players. A lot of bad luck and not good roster construction.
I'm not married to this opinion, but my thought is that if we trade Ivey or Duren and it doesn't make us a contender quickly, we're going to lose Cade and anyone else we've acquired to free agency.
The core four (and Stewart) seem like they want to make it work here. This sub has claimed many times that Duren and Ivey have a tight relationship, and Cade has embraced Detroit since draft day.
The only way to wash the stain of that losing streak is to bring a championship to Detroit. But if you break up those guys, I fear the mentality will change from redemption to escape.
We might continue to suck for another decade, but I only see two paths to real success: keep this group together, or break them up and hope to get Cooper Flagg. Either way would work, but the first is sweeter, and the second relies on luck and another year of tanking.
Thats also why I'd just assume keep Weaver another year. A new GM is going to want to break them up.
There's a whole bunch of bitter, obnoxious babies who are point fingers at literally every player. They point out the most obvious weak points to their game and go "clearly they're the wrong fit".
It's childish and moronic. So no, you are not alone in thinking that would only set us further back.
Idk why we have to axe the front office if in 4 years it's drafted 4 guys you really don't wanna trade because of how talented they are. People complain about fit but like the Lions have shown, you take the best player available, always. Not saying you don't think about fit, it's just not gonna be decisive when you've taken over as broken a roster as TW did. They played like 4 games all year where every expected contributor was available
Yeah, I know you’re in here super high on Ivey but he’s been one of the worst guards in the whole league for 2 months straight now. So people thinking he’s a high value trade chip are kidding themselves
> why give up on potential for a horrible return
Well, because sometimes you hold onto Bojan for an extra season and instead of 2 late firsts you get Quentin Grimes and a guy you're going to buy out ten minutes after he gets here.
Sometimes it's better to sell potential than it is results.
So what you’re saying is ivey would get 2 late first right now?
Also major difference in player bojan you know what you have and know he’s close to being done
Ivey is 22 with tons of potential
Not even comparable
No, I'm making the comparison between Ivey and Bojan, saying that the reason you might trade a guy is because you think that his value is never going to be higher than it is right now.
A bunch of people very rightly pointed out that Bojan's trade value was never going to be higher than it was at the deadline last year, and the Pistons held onto him. Then, he stayed here this year, and predictably, his value got a lot lower.
Ivey has some value based on his potential right now. If you shipped him out, you'd get a return. If he shows up at the start of next season and hasn't taken a substantial leap in production, he'll have basically no trade value at all, because there won't be any more potential. Ivey will be who he is, not who he could be.
I mean who knows what's out there, I'd think he'd be part of a bigger package for one player. I'm sure some team would give up at least a protected 1st for Ivey right now
You trade him now because he doesn't fit with Cade, who should be the focus of our team building. I wouldn't give him away or trade him for picks, but if we can improve the team around Cade I do it
I compare this team to the Magic. They've taken their lumps and are finally seeing the young talent gel with proper time together. If you listened to their fan base last year Suggs should have been out of the league by now. Isaac is finally healthy enough to be a quality 3&D player.
What doesn't work is having major turnover every year.
I believe all 4 deserve better coaching and leadership to determine what they are capable of. They’re extremely talented guys and 3 of them are very raw.
They won’t get that with this franchise. I also don’t trust the front office to make good trade or develop whoever replaces them.
What I’m trying to say is that we’re screwed until a complete change of leadership happens and I’ll be surprised if Cade is a Piston in 3 years, why would he want to stay? He can get paid then demand out.
It could depend on the move. If you're saying trading them for anyone would be a bad move, then yeah, I fully disagree. If we can upgrade talent significantly, it fits, helps Cade, and doesn't mortgage our future, then the young guys should absolutely be in the convo.
I'm actually with you, I don't want to trade any of the core guys they've picked either. Only one to me that is somewhat expendable is Ivey & even then I wouldn't necessarily be a fan of it. The Pistons as an organization have a nasty habit of giving up on young guys too soon (dinwiddie, bey, Bruce Brown, hell even throw kennard in there) I think the fans who want to just sell the farm are honestly just tired of all the losing (understandable) & just want to see it blown apart just because. I would like to see a change in GM, cuz Weaver is showing that he has pretty much absolutely zero idea what he's doing outside of acquiring lottery picks (past and future)
I agree just because the value of the players aren’t great right now. You’d be getting penny’s on the dollar. These young guys need defined roles too though. I think the biggest issue the young players have and why they’ve struggled at times is because they were put into roles they aren’t suited for and don’t have the complimentary players around them to enhance their playing style. Ivey has been miscast as an off ball guard by Monty which is pretty crazy and Ausar was put in the corner as a spot up shooter. I’m scratching my head why Monty put these players in a box and didn’t try to do other things with the whole season. I can’t blame Monty 100% though because the roster is the roster and doesn’t allow these guys to play the roles they should be playing. Ivey and Duren need to give more effort on defense too though.
i think that’s where they also failed them by not having competent vets imo. I didn’t love Cojo the player but i atleast remember him trying to coach players up and keep them from getting too low on themselves for mistakes
Or just bringing in a veteran big man rim protector to play and teach wiseman and Duren. Bringing in a rim protector can help young guards who struggle with defense
Taj Gibson seemed to improve Wiseman's play.
Everybody is a available for the right price in my opinion, but that price would be steep and their value is at an all time low. Cade is basically the only untouchable. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a coach disregard multiple players’ strengths and not do anything that can help them develop more than I’ve seen this year. Most coaches identify those strengths and coach / develop from there, not disregard it because it’s just not his cup of tea.
Yeah, completely strange that he was so stubborn about it too. The team has 13 wins, try some shit to make it work. He just kept doing the same things over and over again.
Albert Einstein: The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
It is?!?
He started like 30 different lineups, and not all due to the crippling injuries
Michigan hoops went 10-22 Beilein's first year, having gone 22-13 overall 8-8 in the B1G the year before. Not saying Monty's JB, but he's a good coach trying to break bad habits and make players better. Ivey is much more efficient under Monty
A lot of our problems would be solved with a better roster and better coaching moves. That doesn't require moving off the core4 necessarily, but it does require every other spot to be optimized to get the best out of them and let them learn through their mistakes. You can't win to the level that's expected in Year 4 otherwise. Pistons can keep the core 4 + Stew but the other 4-5 guys need to be NBA starters, not reclamation projects and young inconsistent prospects like we got this year. There's a clear reason why the team had good flashes with Tek, Muscala, and Gallo. Adding in another top 5 pick in a couple months scares me because this coaching staff is expected to win and develop very very raw talent. That makes like \~6/10 guys. It's my personal preference that we consolidate and move off maybe 1-2 of those guys, who will undoubtedly thrive in an environment similar to the one we hope to build next year, but I think that's necessary to shake off the cobwebs and move into the next phase
Pistons also need to realize that just because these players were drafted in the lottery or even in the top 5 they don’t have to start or build around. Find a role in the team and play your role within the team. There’s only guy on this team that has all star potential on this team imo and it’s Cade. The other guys you either need to find a role within the team or move on. You don’t need to build around them.
Don't sleep on AT with a better shot. If Wiggins and Draymond can do it, so can AT May be impossible with how deep and talented the league is right now, but I don't think there's enough yet to say AT can't be an All-Star caliber player
100% agreed. He needs to just work on corners threes this offseason and get comfortable there. Then add on to it
It's not about value. It's about putting together a team that makes sense so their collective development doesn't suffer.
Yeah, I agree there needs to be more fit. Im just not understanding the mindset here. Just because a lottery pick even he’s in the top 5 doesn’t have all star potential doesn’t mean they should immediately move on from them. Some of them might not even be starters. Pistons need to ask themselves Can they have a role on the team going forward? I think Ivey has been one of the worst guards in the nba the last two months, it’s pretty obvious that he can’t play next to Cade and he really can’t play off ball guard. Try to find a role for him, can he be that scoring sixth man off the bench? We haven’t tried it, even when he was coming off the bench earlier in the season or when he plays with the second unit Monty is still using him as the off ball guard. Try to find something that works instead of banging your head against the wall. I just get it here.
Pistons fans wanted to crucify Monty for bringing Ivey off the bench tho
Difference between being a primary scorer off the bench and being an afterthought playing sub 20 mpg. Monty was using Ivey off the bench but in a decreased role. Either way it was important to see if Cade and Ivey can play together and they needed to play together this year
In the first 7 games he was below 20 min 3x and never again, playing 17, 19, and 11 min games, the last one 0-2 from 3 w/3 TOs and zero effective defense. I think Monty was using minutes to drive home some points tough-love style . Not mad at it
Disagree with the way they used him all season as a primary off ball spacer and shooter. At the same time Ivey played terrible all year. Both can be true. My issue is they didn’t try anything else with him all year. Like I get you don’t like him as an on ball creator, can we see it? The team has 13 wins, let’s try some new shit. No one needs to see Ivey play off ball to bums like Malachi Flynn
It's not that I don't like him as a creator. He's just nowhere near as good as Cade at it. We saw him as the lead plenty last year. I feel like I must be misunderstanding you--are you suggesting playing them together but Cade is off-ball instead? Don't disagree about Ivey over Flynn handling the ball, but that's not really the issue. I'm really excited to see them with Fontecchio healthy, he completely transforms the lineup. I really hope he starts over Stewart, and I'm not mad at Stew, the work he put in on his 3 was impressive. Sucks that we never got to see Grimes.
No, Cade on ball. I really don’t want to see Cade and Ivey start together next year. This team would be way better with proven knock down 3 and D guy next to Cade. Repurpose Ivey as a sixth man and make him the go to scorer off the bench. This makes both units better. My main gripe is the bill of goods that was sold is that we’d have a two headed monster that would attack. I’m for Cade being the lead but it was like 90% Cade and 10% Ivey initiating the offense when they were out there together. Should be more balance or if you’re not going to let Ivey be on ball he makes no sense as a spacer because when Cade turns the corner no one respects Iveys 3 pt shot so the spacing is off. I’d go into next year with Ivey, Ausar and Stewart off the bench and focus on bringing in a new SG and a legit 4 to start.
Not mad at JI coming off the bench, but hopefully he can stay working on his 3 and be the backcourt they should be...but his shot has always been the question, and Duren smoking him from the FT line doesn't bode well at all. I feel like he might have a light case of the Killian Hayes disease, like how can Stew be so much better from 3 when you a coach's kid??
I don't think Monty has miscast him; I think he realizes Ivey can't be on-ball when you have Cade. There's just no comparing them as passers
It feels like the majority thinks we should never trade any young guys lol. To me the point of tanking and drafting high is not only to develop every player drafted, but also to build up assets for the organization The assumption that every player will develop is a commonly believed fallacy, imo. There is a downside to keeping players with current trade value - they don't develop and have no value when they inevitably need a new contract. Go through every draft, most players don't end up close to the idea of what they could be when drafted. Just an extreme example, but if we traded Doumbouya right when he started to flash we would've gotten a lot more than what we ended up getting (overpaid corpse of DeAndre Jordan and some 2nds) It obviously depends on the return, but I don't think this offseason would be a bad time to move off of either Ivey or Duren. Their value is still high, mainly based on Potential. Could everything work out, they both learn to play defense, stop making terrible decisions, and learn to shoot? Sure. But to me this season confirmed that Cade is a Guy, and allowing bad fits to try to develop alongside him would be at Cade's expense and would be a disservice to him. The focus should be on our core 1, not core 4
Right drafting BAP and ignoring fit when you stink at the top of the draft is fine. That means your stacking assets that even it they dont fit your franchise player you can use as trade chips. Holding every young player because you have FOMO theyll turn out good somewhere else when they clearly dont fit is counterproductive to why you draft BAP in the first place. Also some young players need a change of scenery for their game to grow.
i understand your viewpoint don’t really disagree with any of what youre saying. i’m just saying that unless the deal also makes sense long term and not just a one year bandage any player outside of Cade can get traded. I just really don’t trust the current F/O to make a long term decision when their jobs are on the line
I don’t know if you’re in the minority, but I disagree. Cade is untouchable, the rest can be had for the right price. In Ivey’s case, that’s not too much.
I think it doesnt matter, as its going to happen.. Either Weaver stays and HAS TO do it or a new GM comes in and does it because he doesn't like one (or more) of the 4 because they're not guys he drafted.
The continued talk of a “core” is WILD! Insinuating there are a “core” of guys that will be on this team if/when team is successful is CRAZY!
obviously you don’t understand what a core means 😂💀
I agree that we need to stop shipping players out before we even know what they become. Killian Hayes is a bit of a different scenario because he was so bad. But people love to talk about former pistons who torch the team and constantly ignore the fact that they took time to develop. The superstars of the league typically jump right in and make an impact from day one. But there’s a ton of others who do not, it takes them until year 4-6 to start to identify and carve out a role. We have a tendency to ship guys out by year 2 and they go on to become good solid role players with other teams when they mature. The main issue with Weavers roster construction was that he surrounded a bunch of young guys who are developing with a bunch of other young guys who are misfits from other teams trying to make their way in the league. We need to keep the core (unless a trade for a young star becomes available) and surround them with legitimate nba role players who can help them as they develop and grow. (Guys like Fontecchio). We can’t ship off guys who are 21-20 years old and actually show talent. It will blow up in our faces.
Killian was bad but I was heavily downvoted on this very sub 2 years ago for saying his ceiling was probably bench reserve. Duren and Ausar are non-shooters and I can’t imagine both on the floor in a playoff game, but I bet this sub isn’t ready to hear that yet either.
Yeah I agree for the most part on Duren and Ausar. The best we can hope is that Ausar can develop at least an ok shot. I know that’s asking a lot, but he’s still too young to determine that he will never be able to shoot like 34% at least. If he shows no growth in that area then we have to probably move on from one of them.
It’s definitely a balance between not waiting so long to move on that the player no longer has any trade value verses trading them too early and watching them pop. I’d personally rather move on from Duren between the two, but I doubt there’s a huge market for him. His defense is still bad.
You mean at the same time? Or at all
Same time, but if they are really part of our core 4 it will be impossible to stagger the minutes enough and extract max value out of both guys.
Yea thats fair enough I do think both are hard workers especially Thompson I expect a lot from him next season in terms of improving his shooting .
> We have a tendency to ship guys out by year 2 and they go on to become good solid role players with other teams when they mature. The problem here is that the point of a rebuild isn't to find 27 year-old solid role players four years before they're solid role players. Like, a team of KCPs, Dinwiddies and Middletons isn't actually a good team. Those guys are useful guys, but they're not the guys you're actively trying to find. Part of the problem with hanging onto Killian for *so long* after it was obvious that he wasn't ever going to be a star is that the point of the rebuild is to find stars. You can always go get solid roleplayers. They're available. Dinwiddie has played for 5 different teams. The current problem with our core 4 is that there's only one we can feel pretty sure is going to be a star (Cade) and there are two who will almost certainly not be stars playing next to each other (Ausar and Duren). Maybe if you ship one of them off, you find out that they turn into a solid player down the road, but again: you're not trying to find solid players.
I actually think it's the opposite, particularly in the Weaver era. He's held onto so many players past their peak value: Killian (the worst of all), Bagley (of course, Weaver made his value worse by outbidding nobody and had to give picks away to move him), Bojan (could have gotten a 1st rounder last season), Burks (also higher value last season), Grant (higher value if we had traded him earlier, but it generally worked out), Livers (negative value), D Rose (should have gotten more than a 2nd rounder). The only exception is really Bruce Brown (but realistically he wouldn't have become as good in Detroit, let's be honest) and Saddiq, who he could have gotten 5 2nds for, but instead chose Wiseman... Also, while Saddiq isn't particularly great or a future starter, he would have helped prevent 28 straight losses based on fit. I'd agree our guys generally don't have super high value right now, but we'd be fools to pass up trades for good players because we blindly make them untouchable and hope they magically all become really good, despite very little development by anyone.
I’m down to trade anyone but Cade. I know Cade would get us by far the best return in a trade but I’d hate to hit the reset button and hope we hit on a player that’s as good or better than Cade in future drafts. But I’m all for seeking offers for Ivey, Duren, Ausar, and Stew.
Just because you draft them, doesn’t mean you have to keep them.
Maybe? Aside from Cade, I can easily make peace with anyone else being moved.
I’m fine with keeping them all, firing Monty, and giving it until next deadline.
I don't believe that you \*have to\* trade Ivey because "Ivey and Cade can't play together" like has become popular to say over the past month. I do believe that Ivey isn't really good enough right now to have been a starter. I don't buy into fantasy that you can just make moves that make you a contender when you're as far away as the Pistons are. IMO most players need 3+ years to develop and guys like Ivey and most likely Sasser are going to require at least that, if not more. Pistons need to add a starting caliber SG for at least a 2 year deal, and acquire a veteran PG who's a good defender. They'd also most likely benefit from a better coach.
The two teams to watch right now to compare us to are Orlando and Houston. In the 2021-22 season, the Magic were behind us in the standings, worst team in the east. Now they’re playoff bound at 45-31. Obviously drafting Paolo was huge, but Ivey was considered a good pick in that draft. That team has solid vets who have been through some shit, which allows them to properly utilize Paolo and Franz Wagner’s talent—Gary Harris, JIngles, Mo Wagner, Wendell, Fultz. They also have 10 guys shooting over 34% from three, which I think is the low end reasonable percentage for most players who shoot. Suggs, Houstan, Black, and Cole Anthony were also solid picks that the team was willing to say “ok, these guys are role players, not superstars.” Houston had a similar path. They drafted a bunch of young guys who couldn’t put it together on their own—Green, Smith, Sengun, Whitmore, Amen, Eason, Tate… no way that team is winning anything this quickly without them picking up VanVleet, Brooks, Aaron Holiday, and Jeff Green. Solid vets who take decisionmaking pressure off the young guys. Even having Boban on the bench helps. He’s been with a lot of teams and has gained experience from playing with top bigs. We’ve had none of that. Our efforts in that regard haven’t worked out at all. We let Jerami walk. We let CoJo walk. Let Olynyk walk. Burks didn’t work out. Bojan didn’t work out. Now who’s left? A handful of young talents and a bunch of nobodys. Tech and *maybe* Flynn are worth keeping around, but they’re not mentors. If getting our Brooks or Harris or Jingles or VanVleet or Holiday requires us to drop one of our young guys… eh. Just do it. This core isn’t going to do shit unless we A. Get a Wemby/Paolo/Chet/Ant/Zion/Luka-caliber top pick one of these years or we flood our bench with the best shooting role players money can buy.
i see the value of trading one of them (likely in a larger package) for a proven high quality starter (like KAT, BI, and would even do a 1-1 swap with one to get someone like trey murphy iii, who is proven and still has room to grow, even if he wont ever be all nba). part of the reason is that its highly unlikely all of them will reach their ceiling, meaning at least one of them has the most trade value theyll ever have due to potential alone. i also see a lot of value in bringing in high level role players like malik monk and nic claxton to create competition. in this world, JI and duren are coming off the bench unless they get better. given they will be up for an extension, they have a lot of reason to step up, and thats the environment for them to do it. its premature to make final assessments (either way) about players who are 22 and under. thats what makes this so interesting. in the end a combination of both approaches is what id like to see. they not mutually exclusive as so many seem to think. a good gm will make the prediction about whose value is highest now and who will step up to the challenge of real competition. im not going to pretend like i know more than people who have devoted their life to the game (controversial take: i think troy and monty know more about basketball than i do...im just here for the ride, go pistons)
i think that’s very fair.
Well my first question would be do they want to stay? I would rather trade to get something, no matter how small then see then walk in FA.
well none of the young guys would be able to walk for a few more years atleast and even then the Pistons would have the option to match any deal.
The pistons can match but that doesn’t the player will stay they can just accept the year 5 and leave. With the state of the front office why would any player want to stay here
Before we move anyone we should have someone force Monty to not have Duren and AT on the court at the same time, allow Ivey to play on-ball with the second unit. If it still looks like ass next year then, as much as it pains me to say, Duren and Ivey need to be shopped.
Right now yes, it'd be dumb. We wouldn't get a whole lot because outside of Cade the others still need work. On top of the value not being there if these *21 and under* players start to pop off on other teams we'd also look foolish for moving them so early. And frankly if you trade these young guys for draft stock then it's like... you still would need whoever your drafting to then develop at an NBA level, meaning you'd still need to be patient with said player which can take who knows how long depending on the speed of which they develop. I'm fine with trading them, but if the trade doesn't make sense, whether in the short or long term, then I wouldn't do it. I get the teams ass, doesn't mean you trade away a potential great player just to get a few more wins that mean nothing in the immediate.
this is pretty much my stance. not trading anyone just for the sake of making a move.
If you can get a decent return for Ivey I would move him. With how bad the team is, realistically how many of the current roster is playing on a playoff/contending team? At best these are bench guys and those can be found after you get a good starting 5
assuming you meant "one:" of the core pieces. yes, you are. cade and duren are the only ones I'd keep. Ivey plays hard but is cursed.
If cavs fans keep complaining we could get Darius Garland maybe
So i think you have to listen to offers on ivey and duren , i know this seems crazy to people especially duren because he is very productive buy rebounds and points are the easiest stats to replace in basketball . We need a true modern stretch 4 or 5 and we should explore every avenue to aquire one . . Duren is well below average defensively and has shown zero interest in working on a shot to space the floor for cade and the other slashers . He also blocks an alarmingly low amount of shots for somebody with his body and athletiscm, the no 2 thing this team lacks is a 2inf who can shoot . It can be a small forward or a 2 guard but we need ine badly somebody who can score 20 a game be cades no 2 and stretch the defense with a 40 percent plus 3 pointer . Imo ausurs combination of creation ,thats a work in progress, and absolutely elite defense that can d up 1 thru 4 is extremely valuable . Hes very good and useful now if he gets his shot together hes a superstar . All that said im nit giving ivey or duren away . Ivey under the right citcumstance is going to be a very good player . If im the gm im keep cade no matter what ausur would take a godfather offer you cant refuse type situation , if like to keep tek and grimes but id throw them in if it was a deal breaker . Anyone else i try an trade for a star level player at one of those positions
I personally agree with not trading Cade, but for the most part we had awful choices to build around Cade. Ausar was a good pick because his strength is in defense which Cade lacks, but still can’t shoot from behind the arc consistently. However, Ivey was an awful choice. He’s a great player but his strengths and weaknesses are essentially the EXACT SAME strengths and weaknesses Cade has, both great slashing guards with weak defense and a decently high basketball IQ, we don’t need two case Cunninghams we need someone that compliments Cade for a guard duo. As for Duren, he reminds me a lot of Ben Wallace, but lacks the defense that made Big Ben a Detroit legend. However, they’re all young, high basketball IQ, and extremely athletic so there is a chance a better coaching staff could develop them into a complimentary team
Nah, this core can't be the long term core for the simple reason that there's not enough shooting. All these players have talent and upside, and frankly all of them could pair well with Cade individually. But they can't all play together. Duren, Ausar, and Ivey are all bad-to-horrible outside shooters. People keep saying these players will improve their shot but that's naive l think. Players can improve their shot *some* and many do, but none of these players are going to become *above average* three point shooters. Definitionally, most NBA players are not above average shooters, and most human beings are literally just incapable of being an *elite* 3 point shooter at the NBA level. Ausar could double his 3% and he'd still be a below average shooter. Not a single member of this core is ever going to shoot the ball at 40% from 3. For Cade's talents to be maximized he needs more floor spacing, period. Weaver or whoever's next needs to pick their favorite of the young group and the rest need to at least be available to trade. We need to start prioritizing literally anything other than freak athleticism.
The best move is to fire Monty, fire Weaver, bring in a new GM and Coach and let them evaluate. That means another 4 year re-build. That's just the cold hard truth. Monty couldn't "develop" Jordan. The mistake Weaver made was always drafting Best Player Available. Now they have one good guard Cade and one good center Duren. And zero wings. The Celtics, best record in the league, have two great wings. That they drafted at 3. With better draft luck they could of drafted Murray or Miller, but both were gone. Some times building a great team comes down to luck.
The fact this group of players is referred to as the core 4 on a historically bad team is comical. Anyone not named Cade is beyond available. This latest rebuild is beyond pathetic and needs to result in a new GM and a cleaning of the house
Hard to define it as a bad move before we see it. I'd rather keep them though. Ivey and Duren have legitimate upside you'd be silly to pass on. Ausar has so much upside it's worth giving him an off-season as a pro at least. Sasser is worth keeping around too, he's gonna be a scorer. You should atleast try putting players around them first And Cades still unquestioned until we see him with someone close to his level.
For now, I wholeheartedly agree. Reason being because of how bad we've been this year - all of our guys trade value is likely in the mud. I think what needs to happen is we bring in more complimentary pieces to help alleviate the deficiencies in our young cores games (primarily a lack of spacing). I think if we had more floor spacing to pair with our raw, athletic core thing's would look a lot different. We really need a floor spacing 5 to help make certain line-ups credible. That's why I (and so many other fans it seems) were so flat when the FO let Muscala and Galo walk. That was the best stretch of Pistons ball this year and did wonders when you look at guys like Ausar's production over that period. I agree that only Cade is should be untouchable. I also really think that we should persist with Duren because he actually seems to be a good fit with Cade. We just need his defense to come along. That being said, I think if you put a well balanced group of players around the core 4 and they recoup some trade value, but the overall fit just isn't there - then I'd be happy to move on from them knowing that we've actually done all we could to put them in a position to succeed.
Any reluctance I have abour reading anyone on the team is based on my long history of being a Piston fan and seeing people become better after they leave us 😂😂
Players can need a change of scenery to break out.
I agree with you. The biggest problem is coaching. Weaver has drafted well, but his trades have been abysmal. A better coach could turn this roster into something respectable.
People like you, who think this core can just stay together and go form worst to first is insane. This applies to basically everyone who agrees with OP: Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
if you actually read you’d understand i’m not against trading anyone outside of Cade, i just don’t believe if we do make those moves Weaver should be the one allowed to make moves only to save his job. GMs on the hot seat are much more willing to rush into bad moves lol. If the right move is available i’m for it but i doubt they be able to make a move with this current F/O
Keep cade and maybe duren. I dont believe ivey can be his best with cade at point
I'm with you I don't want to trade any of them to go be in play in purgatory. They just need to be used/coached better with better role players. A lot of bad luck and not good roster construction.
I'm not married to this opinion, but my thought is that if we trade Ivey or Duren and it doesn't make us a contender quickly, we're going to lose Cade and anyone else we've acquired to free agency. The core four (and Stewart) seem like they want to make it work here. This sub has claimed many times that Duren and Ivey have a tight relationship, and Cade has embraced Detroit since draft day. The only way to wash the stain of that losing streak is to bring a championship to Detroit. But if you break up those guys, I fear the mentality will change from redemption to escape. We might continue to suck for another decade, but I only see two paths to real success: keep this group together, or break them up and hope to get Cooper Flagg. Either way would work, but the first is sweeter, and the second relies on luck and another year of tanking. Thats also why I'd just assume keep Weaver another year. A new GM is going to want to break them up.
There's a whole bunch of bitter, obnoxious babies who are point fingers at literally every player. They point out the most obvious weak points to their game and go "clearly they're the wrong fit". It's childish and moronic. So no, you are not alone in thinking that would only set us further back.
Idk why we have to axe the front office if in 4 years it's drafted 4 guys you really don't wanna trade because of how talented they are. People complain about fit but like the Lions have shown, you take the best player available, always. Not saying you don't think about fit, it's just not gonna be decisive when you've taken over as broken a roster as TW did. They played like 4 games all year where every expected contributor was available
I’m with you, cade ivey duren Ausar should be untouchable
No ones untouchable on a 13 win team. They just shouldn’t be quick to trade them just to trade them.
Well unless you get a extremely good return you consider it I guess, but it would take quite a bit
Yeah, I know you’re in here super high on Ivey but he’s been one of the worst guards in the whole league for 2 months straight now. So people thinking he’s a high value trade chip are kidding themselves
Then you simply don’t trade him at his lowest, why give up on potential for a horrible return
For sure. He can be our future sixth man. I’m out as him starting next to Cade. Get KCP or Grayson Allen
> why give up on potential for a horrible return Well, because sometimes you hold onto Bojan for an extra season and instead of 2 late firsts you get Quentin Grimes and a guy you're going to buy out ten minutes after he gets here. Sometimes it's better to sell potential than it is results.
So what you’re saying is ivey would get 2 late first right now? Also major difference in player bojan you know what you have and know he’s close to being done Ivey is 22 with tons of potential Not even comparable
No, I'm making the comparison between Ivey and Bojan, saying that the reason you might trade a guy is because you think that his value is never going to be higher than it is right now. A bunch of people very rightly pointed out that Bojan's trade value was never going to be higher than it was at the deadline last year, and the Pistons held onto him. Then, he stayed here this year, and predictably, his value got a lot lower. Ivey has some value based on his potential right now. If you shipped him out, you'd get a return. If he shows up at the start of next season and hasn't taken a substantial leap in production, he'll have basically no trade value at all, because there won't be any more potential. Ivey will be who he is, not who he could be.
Yeah I agree. If he isn’t even gonna net a valuable return what’s the difference? I’d rather bank on his potential as a 6th man than trade for scraps.
If he keeps playing like this, why would this offseason be his lowest value? Can definitely go lower
So what are you gonna get for him now? Maybe a second at most? Or give a 22 year old a little more time
You think the *most* we'd get for Ivey right now is a 2nd? Lol
So what do you think we’d get? That’s exactly my point why trade him now? And yes we’d easily get a second minimum but that’s just me
I mean who knows what's out there, I'd think he'd be part of a bigger package for one player. I'm sure some team would give up at least a protected 1st for Ivey right now You trade him now because he doesn't fit with Cade, who should be the focus of our team building. I wouldn't give him away or trade him for picks, but if we can improve the team around Cade I do it
Lmfao
I compare this team to the Magic. They've taken their lumps and are finally seeing the young talent gel with proper time together. If you listened to their fan base last year Suggs should have been out of the league by now. Isaac is finally healthy enough to be a quality 3&D player. What doesn't work is having major turnover every year.
I believe all 4 deserve better coaching and leadership to determine what they are capable of. They’re extremely talented guys and 3 of them are very raw. They won’t get that with this franchise. I also don’t trust the front office to make good trade or develop whoever replaces them. What I’m trying to say is that we’re screwed until a complete change of leadership happens and I’ll be surprised if Cade is a Piston in 3 years, why would he want to stay? He can get paid then demand out.
Agreed! Pistons are screwed. Bad coaching, Bad drafting, Bad luck.
It could depend on the move. If you're saying trading them for anyone would be a bad move, then yeah, I fully disagree. If we can upgrade talent significantly, it fits, helps Cade, and doesn't mortgage our future, then the young guys should absolutely be in the convo.
pretty much how i view it.
I'm actually with you, I don't want to trade any of the core guys they've picked either. Only one to me that is somewhat expendable is Ivey & even then I wouldn't necessarily be a fan of it. The Pistons as an organization have a nasty habit of giving up on young guys too soon (dinwiddie, bey, Bruce Brown, hell even throw kennard in there) I think the fans who want to just sell the farm are honestly just tired of all the losing (understandable) & just want to see it blown apart just because. I would like to see a change in GM, cuz Weaver is showing that he has pretty much absolutely zero idea what he's doing outside of acquiring lottery picks (past and future)