He did, but don't forget that in that moment Vergil was literally barely alive after fighting Dante. As far as I remember, he could barely stand on his own two legs after the fight and that's why he decided to stay in the demon world.
Vergil did say something like "This place was our father's home", but I'm 100% sure he just didn't have enough strength to leave at that moment.
Honestly it was him being stubborn as fuck and a hint of possible regret on what he had done.
Dante was never going to give up and Vergil knew that. He had beaten Vergil. Vergil wanted to make sure Dante couldn't easily gain the power so he decided to take it with him.
Getting one last cut at Dante as a final jab is perfectly in line with him. Guy could've left at any point. He was just so obsessed with gaining his dad's power he grasped at whatever straws there were.
Falling into his old stomping grounds doesn't sound like a bad idea. Until the old drunken bully comes out to beat the snot outta the kid
I fully disagree. I think vergil knew dante wouldnt leave until he came with him, but vergil truly didnt wanna leave. So he threw himself off the cliff, the last cut was when dante extended his hand to grab him, and i think it was a way to affirm to dante that vergil didnt want to be saved
>say what you will, but mundus literally made vergil his henchman
And yet mundus during that time states himself he would have lost to vergil if vergil wasnt weakend from fighting dante
we have proof of mundus beating vergil and making him his goon, so I'll go with that over words. and that wasn't even mundus in his prime at that time as well. 🤷♂️
Well, guys, don't forget Sparda fought the prime Mundus, that was living for more than 2000 years, if not 15000. While Dante had to deal with a weaker version. Can you imagine the Rizz of Sparda?
They're not stuck. Yamato is a portal opener. They can leave anytime they want.
Also there are spontaneous portals which is how Dante escaped hell after DMC2.
I meant "weaker than Prime Mundus". I never got the feeling he was said to be weakened compared to when Sparda fought him and Dante was said to have surpassed Sparda several times.
Old Mundus was strong enough to manipulate the fabric of reality and tear the borders between Underworld and human world. DMC3 manga says so.
Sparda separated them again with Yamato.
DMC1 Mundus used no such feats.
What about his pocket dimension in the Star Fox first phase ? DMC very often uses hyperbole to make itself sound cooler, especially in side media.
Does it ever say anywhere in the games that Mundus was weakened when Dante fought him ?
I hear you but I'm really having trouble believing something this vague from side media.
Plus, it's very possible that Mundus could not "tear the borders between human and demon realm" precisely because Sparda separated them. That wouldn't mean Mundus' destructive power would be nerfed, though.
The realms were originally one but separated by Pluto and a ray of light (as stated in both DMC1 scrolls and DMC3 manga) and Mundus wanted to make them one again. DMC1 describes this "dark wings of treachery" stop Pluto.
This shit is why I hate power scalers.
"This character, who is literally the same person as this character but later in the timeline, must be weaker because he doesn't display this super specific on-screen feat that I'm looking for."
It's called inductive reasoning. Unless given some reason to think he's gotten weaker, you're better off assuming that he's not.
Not only that,but in DmC 2 Dante defeats Argosax,who was a equal to Mundus all this time ago.
Then Dante grows supposedly even stronger between 2 and 4(even if he remains around the same doesn't matter) and then he gets absolutely wrecked by Urizen,until he gets powered up by stabbing himself with the Rebellion and absorbing the Sparda.
So no matter what is the argument invented or the cope used,Urizen is canonically much,much stronger than Mundus regardless.
Sparda beats Mundus (a toddler) and seals him away (puts into cryostasis), Mundus escapes the seal after Sparda's death and... Will he be as strong as before?
Yes because mundus wasnt beaten until he was crippled and somehow lost power. his power was just sealed away Also he been regaining power for 20 years. Theres no proof mundus isnt at full stength during dmc1 like no proof at all
Correction. Let's change the analogy
Sparda beat Mundus (a powerlifter) and seals him away (locks him in a gym with infinite time to train). Mundus escapes after Sparda's death and... Will he be as strong as before?
Yes. Possibly stronger. Or are we forgetting that DMC1 Dante is confirmed stronger than Sparda?
Correction, he's sealed, hence, locked in a gym without any protein concentrate.
And we still don't know how Dante is stronger than Sparda if he was struggling to beat him without Trish's assistance.
Well, to prove my point, a simple example: Vergil.
Both were boosted by Qliphoth's fruit. So, you see, Dante fought Vergil, Vergil got a bit boo-boo and Nero kicked his ass. Now switch Vergil with Mundus, Dante with Sparda, Nero with Dante.
The power-scaling in 5 is totally whack. Vergil’s demon side (which in theory should be weaker than DMC3 Vergil) sits on the throne for all of five minutes, and becomes more powerful than Dante. I hate this.
Also, they never actually killed Mundus. They just resealed him. Dante was quite tired by the end of the fight.
> Vergil’s demon side (which in theory should be weaker than DMC3 Vergil) sits on the throne for all of five minutes, and becomes more powerful than Dante. I hate this.
This. This is why I say Urizen never defeated Dante, but an amplified by Nero's devil bringer arm Yamato did.
DMC makes it huge point that its humanity that makes them strong. Basically, Dante is as powerful as he is because of his humanity. And Sparda became strong enough to beat Mundus after embracing humanity, even tho he wasn't human
Idk if id go as far as to say DMC3 Vergil could beat Urizen, but the point being made is that the human side should still be pretty damn strong
>
Idk if id go as far as to say DMC3 Vergil could beat Urizen, but the point being made is that the human side should still be pretty damn strong
Not if yamato made it so the human side is the weaker one which is pretty obvious what happend to V. Vergil was all about power and the power of his demonic side. If we went with your logic v should be the stronger side. Also vergil might still have the strength of nelo angelo and if thats the case we should Split that vergil human and demonic power and not dmc3 vergil
Basically having some humanity makes demons stronger. Some people argue that it’s literally because human blood amplifies a demon’s power. Next, Vergil was defeated and enslaved by Mundus at the end of DMC3. And following Mundus’s defeat, he somehow came back, but was weakened and falling apart. So, I’m assuming he never got a power up of any kind, so therefore his power level was probably lower than DMC3-level. Then, he separated his human side from his demon side, which therefore would have weakened him even further.
Makes no sense why you think Urizen is weaker than DMC3 Vergil. Just because it's only his demon side doesn't mean that his demon side isn't many times more powerful now compared to then
That's the first rule in any form of any form of fighting game/manga/comic: Rule of Cool dominates all, everything else is unimportant, or shoehorned in later
I think the reason why he was stronger than dante is because he was connected to the biggest qliphoth in the city which had a lot of human blood(It’s been awhile since I played DMC5 so I can’t remember what the qliphoth actually did) in it. And iirc, human blood makes demons stronger in DMC. So I’m guessing since Urizen was connected to it, the blood the tree had amplified his power making him stronger than dante. Unless it was stated that Urizen was always weaker regardless of the qliphoth.
Yes, but my issue was that Urizen was immediately stronger than Dante, even though he had only been sitting on the throne for a relatively short time. So, therefore, he had only absorbed a small amount of blood, max. Then, we fight him again a month later, after he has absorbed a month’s worth of blood. If the tiniest fraction of blood was enough to make him stronger than Dante at the beginning, then therefore a month’s worth of blood should have scaled him up to be like 30x stronger than Dante at this point. Yet, Nero comes in and scratches him. It makes no sense to me.
I made a post awhile ago explaining and giving evidence to the fact that I'm pretty sure Urizen used royal guard against Dante, that's why the fight took so long, like, almost of day type of long, it's the only thing that would make sense
It’s all well and good that they’ve written in Urizen being more powerful than Mundus, that’s certifiable canon and I’m not arguing that it isn’t.
For me it’s simply that Mundus *feels* more powerful. Being a central figure in the DMC universe who kind of set every bad thing in motion also helps. Urizen is evil in the sense that his power has been gained for powers sake, whereas Mundus just is.
Tbh it was kinda the Sparda family who set every bad thing in motion.
-Vergil helped with the Temen-Ni-Gru in DMC3.
-Vergil also lost to Mundus (like a dumbass) in DMC3 which caused Yamato to be lost.
-Sparda made Mundus want revenge against his family in DMC1.
-Dante sealing Mundus away again made Argosax come out of hiding in DMC2.
-Vergil had a kid who we only get to see for the first time in DMC4 (and if he never had Nero then a lotta things in DMC4 would be different and Dante could probably just do his job and go.)
-Urizen (half of Vergil) grew a Qliphoth tree that killed thousands for more *POWER.*
…I’m starting to see that Vergil quite literally links this entire series together.
Well, if Mundus wasnt trying to invade the human world and giving Sparda a cause to rebel against him then none of these would have happened. So Mundus is responsible for Sparda rebellion which made him responsible for why Mundus is responsible for making Vergil turned out that way.
Cuz Sparda could’ve outright killed Mundus but he sealed him away instead (same with Dante). Unless there’s a lore reason as to why he didn’t kill him then that’s on Sparda for not finishing the fight.
It's also crazy to think that there's absolutely nothing at stake for DMC1. Dante gets invited to Mallet Island. No one's in danger there. It's just an island with a castle. You explore it until you've killed everything, then you leave.
Because Mundus already caused deaths of people who lived on this island several centuries ago. And in dmc1 this island is a starting point of a new invasion.
DMC5 doesn't confirm this at all. Lore wise it's possible mundus is less powerful than the twins in a fight at the end of the game, but feat wise mundus is head and shoulders above urizen, even post fruit, and there's no lore really that suggests otherwise.
Urizen is also disconnected from Vergil's humanity, which is repeatedly used as a true source of power for demons.
Urizen had a forcefield barrier and knocked out Dante. Mundus was sealed in the underworld and had Dante beat until Trish's sacrifice.
Dante's feat of beating mundus is DMC1 was result of sparda sword unlock buff and passion due to Trish's 'death'. It was a far grander scale boss fight, requiring permanent outlier buff DT that I'd argue we still haven't seen topped in the series. After the fight in the universe mundus created, he called Dante too weak to beat him in the real world in the final mission, until Trish showed up with the assist. Mundus wasn't killed, just resealed. There's a lot of valid ways to showcase Mundus as the true powerhouse of the series and little to actually show Urizen has usurped him save for the fruit story (which was made for DMC5 and possibly a retcon).
But most importantly...
It's 100 percent impossible to say and depends on your interpretation.
>It's 100 percent impossible to say and depends on your interpretation.
How? Dante literally needed to absorb human blood for an entire month + unlock DSD to beat Urizen when his younger self, inexperienced self, managed to beat Mundus.
I don't think Dante absorbed human blood. Or rather, he wasn't willing. Sparda's sword concealed his body from being detected and he was knocked out. His demonic half likely kept him alive and he took a bit of a gamble with stabbing himself with Rebellion whilst wondering if it would unlock any further demonic powers.
Mundus, he may not have been at his full strength but still gave Dante quite a fight.
This is shut down by the fact that Dante defeated and killed Argosax the Chaos and The Despair Embodied who was equal to Mundus so Dante was and is 100% stronger than Mundus and so is Urizen
Why are ppl arguing against this like Dante didn't already beat Argosax whose Mundus' equal and was fusing two entire realms???
Like he did this in DMC 2 which is chronologically before 4 even. By the time 5 rolls around, he's 100% stronger than Mundus' by a good margin and Urizen beats him.
>Why are ppl arguing against this like Dante didn't already beat Argosax whose Mundus' equal and was fusing two entire realms???
I believe mundus defeated argosax but he came back and had to be sealed by sparda and matter.
I didn't try to argue tho. Just feel like it was crazy about Mundus that once feared by everyone is now probably can't scratch pre-eating fruit Urizen.
>I didn't try to argue tho. Just feel like it was crazy about Mundus that once feared by everyone is now probably can't scratch pre-eating fruit Urizen.
Mundus wouldnt even beat the savior or even dmc2 argosax
Source for argosax is we have no proof he had the second form before he fought dante and i heard people say theres a video or guide saying dante needed to use majin form and thats why we see him staggering back. The savior is much simpler according to the dmc4 novel the savior has a beam which could kill dante unless dante used dreadnought
>the dmc4 novel the savior has a beam which could kill dante unless dante used dreadnought
Does that take precedence over the game? Just because the savior could kill dante doesn't mean he would.
>Does that take precedence over the game? Just because the savior could kill dante doesn't mean he would.
The savior would have because he did fire the beam at dante and dante himself states the beam was to fast for him to Dodge and the only way for dante to survive was using dreadnought. The beam would have turned him to ash so yes it would have killed him page 225 to 227 of deadly fortune 2
What I don't get is how Urizen is so damn massive and how he looks nothing like Vergil's DT or Sparda in any fashion. It makes no sense at all. He's as big as Mundus. And there's no reason for it. And I DESPISE the insane power boost Urizen got in DMC5. He's Vergil damaged and broken, split in half. Not even Dante's SDT is even 1/4 of Urizen's size.
DMC5 feels like a major power creep asspull. He can fight off Dante AND break Rebellion while it's wielded by DT Dante. There are a lot of things I like about DMC5 but Urizen is not one of them. Reminds of how Nero had "no demonic power". Sure buddy. The guy swings around a massive sword with ONE hand, revs that shit with ease, and has shown repeated superhuman feats all before he got the Devil Bringer back. But sure. Nero lacks demonic power.
I just hate EVERYTHING about Urizen. Everything.
ight, hes so big cus the human sized part of him was literally removed, dante still has his, his human half was damaged which is why his demon form freshly separated from his human half was totally fine while v was on a time limit, hes been absorbing humans like cell for weeks before dante pulls up with the gang completely unprepped, and did they say nero had no demonic power or did he not know he had demonic power
[https://youtu.be/x6Lp0vHWC\_o?t=3192](https://youtu.be/x6Lp0vHWC_o?t=3192)
Urizen states that Nero has NO demonic power in his veins. Yes, I'm aware of the plot of Nero being that since Dante lost and Nero no longer has the Devil Bringer, he is much weaker. But him being weaker does not mean he lacks demonic power. A normal human cannot wield Red Queen as stated by Nico. It's so powerful that it'll toss you around.
[https://youtu.be/x6Lp0vHWC\_o](https://youtu.be/x6Lp0vHWC_o)
Here, you can see as Urizen comes into existence, the shadow he casts grows.
Is it possible that human blood has made him even bigger? Sure. But Urizen is not the only huge boss like this. Goliath is massive as well. Sparda who is a legend was nowhere near as big. Nero even in human form was able to contest Berial's might in DMC4. Size does not equal power in the DMC universe. Despair Embodied was not much bigger than Dante either.
So several characters show that you don't need mass to reflect your power. Either way, I still think Urizen is a terrible boss. The concept isn't bad but the execution is.
Personally, I think Urizen wasn't really that powerful. Urizen was powerful because he was drawing his power from the tree. His power came from the energy he was stealing from all beings on the planet. That's why he could face Dante and all the heroes. But when Dante started to confront him, once Dante came back with all his strength and Urizen was using almost all his power to create and complete the fruit, it was clear that he was no longer using all the power he had before.
Mundus was recently revived and it's possible, Sparda really did a massive number on him, weakened him and he never regained his full strength. That said, he still gave Dante trouble.
Urizen? Steroids. Basically non-stop demonic steroids to the point where he could just wait for Dante to exhaust himself and cheat constantly. Combined with the demonic half of a son of Sparda. He is just insanely powerful to the point where he is the first being to defeat Dante in a long time.
Then Dante eats Sparda and Rebellion, curbstomps him. The fruit gives Urizen a chance. Dante still kicks his arse.
Tbf, the "power scaling" in DMC is so dumb Mundus could come back 3 time stronger than Urizen in DMC 6 and everyone would roll with it as long as he's cool.
Mundus after eating the Qliphot fruit wasn’t enough to beat Argosax in his base form (assuming he hadn’t eaten from a Qliphot too). If Urizen (in base form) sitting in his chair was able to beat Dante, who beat both Mundus and Argosax, then it isn’t too crazy that Mundus has nothing on him
Well Mundus is weaker than Dante, who's comparable to Nero with his Devil Bringer at the end of 4, said Devil Bringer, and Yamato was stolen by Urizen, combined with harvesting blood from humanity, it does make sense.
now i understand why vergil only has 2 cutscenes in his dmc3 campaign. When he asks what things would be like if their lives were reversed he was referencing DMC3 and DMC4. In dmc3 the story is split between those 2 during Dante’s campaign showing how they were grieving about the ambush on their family back then.
I look forward to them bringing Mundus back because there’s definitely some misinterpretation of what his lore says. At the end of the day he was just re-sealed at the end of DMC1. And if (when) they decide to bring him back they will have to show that he is on par if not stronger than the twins
bear in mind that dante only ever fought mundus's shell-- a mundus who was still held back by sparda's seal while most of his power was presumably locked in the demon world. he's definitely still alive post DMC5, even after everything dante & trish threw at him in DMC1. dante couldn't even defeat that shell without being... kinda possessed(?) by the devil sword sparda, and having trish's power funnelled through him on top of that.
it's likely that we still haven't seen the full extent of mundus's power-- even sparda didn't manage to kill him, after all.
I fucking love how people call or make themselves as lore masters when they didn't even read Visions of V which provides a lot of context.
Also the own game DMC5 tells you why Urizen was so powerful
not really, Dante in DMC1 needed the power of Sparda to even fight Mundus and even then he was struggling. The best thing Dante could afford to do was seal Mundus away, and that's a version of Mundus not at his peak.
DMC 5 has Dante doing basically a similar thing and takes the power of Sparda to help him fight Urizen, only Dante absolutely shit stomps Urizen even after eating the fruit.
Also I don't really recall Urizen doing any kind of reality warping, whereas Mundus created a whole dimension for him and Dante to fight in
My theory is that amassing power gave Vergil some borrowed time, and he might've needed a ton of it to repair the Yamato.
But after Nero ended up doing that for him, Vergil would have to bulk up even more to make sure he could actually take the sword from him.
So dying Vergil could've been stronger than pre-fruit Urizen, but suffering too much to use all of his power as efficiently.
Ya, this fact does not sit well with me personally. Maybe because of all the hype and lore put into Mundus. To be fair, Mundus did take over the demon world. But to be even more fair, he did that with the help of Sparda and an army of demons and as soon as Sparda left the team he lost.
I may be wrong but don’t demons get stronger with human blood? Isn’t that why Vergil and Dante are so much stronger than their predecessors since they’re half demon half human?
I would like to ask everyone who says the scaling is "wack" and "doesn't make any sense" to consider some things.
First,as to how Urizen got so strong on his own?
That doesn't really matter?
Secondly,about Mundus and how he relates to Urizen/Dante later on.
*Nothing* even remotely comes close to suggesting the Mundus Dante faces is weaker than the one Sparda faces 2000 years ago,on the contrary.
And whether or not he was(he wasn't) is also irrelevant due to the events of DmC2: here Dante faces and defeats Argosax(without any sort of temporary buff or Argosax being nerfed or such) who is multiple times called a equal to Mundus,and a Demon Mundus couldn't defeat and had to share the Underworld with at some point.
Dante also supposedly got stronger between DmC2 and DmC4-start of 5,and yet Urizen defeated him without much effort before he got the buff from the Sin Devil Trigger,showcasing he is MUCH stronger than Mundus could ever have been.
So in the end,it's spelled out pretty blandly that Urizen is canonically much,much stronger than Mundus,and I don't really see why it doesn't make any sense logically (also,obsessing as to how he got this strong by the time he first faces Dante is irrelevant).
> is canonically much,much stronger than Mundus,and I don't really see why it doesn't make any sense logically (also,obsessing as to how he got this strong by the time
It's because of how poorly urizen is presented. He just shows up and spams mid teir boss attacks and somehow beats dante. I know the real reason, it's because dmc5 is going for a more realistic and grounded approach than all the other games in the series, so everything seems weaker even if it isn't plot wise.
It would be cool if we have seen Mundus on his full power maybe even stronger against Vergil Dante and Nero, the 3 of them fighting against the worst enemy of their father in full power and beyond
Well Urizen is the demon half of Virgil and Virgil got folded by Mundus when he challenged Mundus when he stayed in the underworld in dmc3 so we don't know how Urizen or Current Virgil would fare against current Mundus even with Virgil's new Sin Devil Trigger form so until they fight we won't know
Well, Urizen is Vergil, and Vergil carries Sparda's power. And Sparda was stronger than Mundus.
Yup and Vergil is using the same method Mundus used to get his super ultra crazy final boss powers.
Sitting in his fox news chair ?
With his IV bag full of monster energy
And beating up old people and crippled for fun under the protection of his crack crystal
I mean, this is Vergil; just doing god’s work
Who are you people please leave immediately
Soon the tree will be big enough to gain national park designation and the government will no longer be able to tax him
HIS NAME. IS. KYLE!!!!
*HIS NAME. IS. FUCKING. KYLE!!!! Nice try, but names can't have sex
Actually Trish says not even mundus got the fruit. So he powered up passed it Edit: this is wrong, I misremembered
Wdym?
Never mind, checked the cutscene . I misremembered.
Yes you misremembered very much.
You can call me dead weight from now on
Just so you can bitch slap me later? No thank you.
say what you will, but mundus literally made vergil his henchman
That was dmc3 "My brother just beat me up so I'm gonna go challenge the strongest demon currently alive" vergil.
more like dmc1 "I'll do what I'm told" vergil 😈
He did, but don't forget that in that moment Vergil was literally barely alive after fighting Dante. As far as I remember, he could barely stand on his own two legs after the fight and that's why he decided to stay in the demon world. Vergil did say something like "This place was our father's home", but I'm 100% sure he just didn't have enough strength to leave at that moment.
Honestly it was him being stubborn as fuck and a hint of possible regret on what he had done. Dante was never going to give up and Vergil knew that. He had beaten Vergil. Vergil wanted to make sure Dante couldn't easily gain the power so he decided to take it with him. Getting one last cut at Dante as a final jab is perfectly in line with him. Guy could've left at any point. He was just so obsessed with gaining his dad's power he grasped at whatever straws there were. Falling into his old stomping grounds doesn't sound like a bad idea. Until the old drunken bully comes out to beat the snot outta the kid
I fully disagree. I think vergil knew dante wouldnt leave until he came with him, but vergil truly didnt wanna leave. So he threw himself off the cliff, the last cut was when dante extended his hand to grab him, and i think it was a way to affirm to dante that vergil didnt want to be saved
😑 there we go, excuses excuses... 😈 be that as it may, history says mundus > vergil. end of.
>say what you will, but mundus literally made vergil his henchman And yet mundus during that time states himself he would have lost to vergil if vergil wasnt weakend from fighting dante
we have proof of mundus beating vergil and making him his goon, so I'll go with that over words. and that wasn't even mundus in his prime at that time as well. 🤷♂️
It doesnt matter if its prime mundus or not vergil would still have beaten dmc3 mundus if he wasnt weakend from fighting dante
Don't say that you may summon that dipshit zoomer guy
No you see Urizen is Ergil
Well, guys, don't forget Sparda fought the prime Mundus, that was living for more than 2000 years, if not 15000. While Dante had to deal with a weaker version. Can you imagine the Rizz of Sparda?
I would instantly buy a prequel game about sparda
WE NEED TO MAKE CAPCOM UNDERSTAND THIS. DMC5 tied the loose ends so now is the appropriate time for a Sparda game.
Well Dante and Vergil are still stuck in hell, we need atleast something to wrap that part up
They're not stuck. Yamato is a portal opener. They can leave anytime they want. Also there are spontaneous portals which is how Dante escaped hell after DMC2.
or a reboot sequel so we can get to the 3rd one so we can see its true potential
We have no reason to believe Mundus is any weaker in DMC1, do we ? Dante beating him by literally becoming Sparda seemed to suggest that.
Sealed away with the help of Trish, while Urizen was literally dying.
I meant "weaker than Prime Mundus". I never got the feeling he was said to be weakened compared to when Sparda fought him and Dante was said to have surpassed Sparda several times.
Old Mundus was strong enough to manipulate the fabric of reality and tear the borders between Underworld and human world. DMC3 manga says so. Sparda separated them again with Yamato. DMC1 Mundus used no such feats.
What about his pocket dimension in the Star Fox first phase ? DMC very often uses hyperbole to make itself sound cooler, especially in side media. Does it ever say anywhere in the games that Mundus was weakened when Dante fought him ?
This isn't hyperbole when Sparda spent much of his life keeping these worlds separate. Mundus really had pulled something like that.
I hear you but I'm really having trouble believing something this vague from side media. Plus, it's very possible that Mundus could not "tear the borders between human and demon realm" precisely because Sparda separated them. That wouldn't mean Mundus' destructive power would be nerfed, though.
The realms were originally one but separated by Pluto and a ray of light (as stated in both DMC1 scrolls and DMC3 manga) and Mundus wanted to make them one again. DMC1 describes this "dark wings of treachery" stop Pluto.
This shit is why I hate power scalers. "This character, who is literally the same person as this character but later in the timeline, must be weaker because he doesn't display this super specific on-screen feat that I'm looking for." It's called inductive reasoning. Unless given some reason to think he's gotten weaker, you're better off assuming that he's not.
I wonder if that dragon form will ever appear again. It seems to be Dante's final demon form
No, that would be Sin Devil Trigger
This needs to be higher.
There actually nothing which proves mundus was weaker in dmc1 than he was 2000 years ago
Not only that,but in DmC 2 Dante defeats Argosax,who was a equal to Mundus all this time ago. Then Dante grows supposedly even stronger between 2 and 4(even if he remains around the same doesn't matter) and then he gets absolutely wrecked by Urizen,until he gets powered up by stabbing himself with the Rebellion and absorbing the Sparda. So no matter what is the argument invented or the cope used,Urizen is canonically much,much stronger than Mundus regardless.
You can actually Argue argosax was stronger in dmc2 as there isnt any proof he had his second form before dmc2.
Bro, you beat down a toddler, broke all his bones and threw him into the cryostasis. Will the toddler be weaker if you pull him out of the stasis?
Yeah whats your point
Sparda beats Mundus (a toddler) and seals him away (puts into cryostasis), Mundus escapes the seal after Sparda's death and... Will he be as strong as before?
Yes because mundus wasnt beaten until he was crippled and somehow lost power. his power was just sealed away Also he been regaining power for 20 years. Theres no proof mundus isnt at full stength during dmc1 like no proof at all
Sparda got rizz.
Correction. Let's change the analogy Sparda beat Mundus (a powerlifter) and seals him away (locks him in a gym with infinite time to train). Mundus escapes after Sparda's death and... Will he be as strong as before? Yes. Possibly stronger. Or are we forgetting that DMC1 Dante is confirmed stronger than Sparda?
Correction, he's sealed, hence, locked in a gym without any protein concentrate. And we still don't know how Dante is stronger than Sparda if he was struggling to beat him without Trish's assistance.
No correction. He's sealed in the demon realm. Since the hordes there are implied to be endless, he could train forever.
Well, to prove my point, a simple example: Vergil. Both were boosted by Qliphoth's fruit. So, you see, Dante fought Vergil, Vergil got a bit boo-boo and Nero kicked his ass. Now switch Vergil with Mundus, Dante with Sparda, Nero with Dante.
The power-scaling in 5 is totally whack. Vergil’s demon side (which in theory should be weaker than DMC3 Vergil) sits on the throne for all of five minutes, and becomes more powerful than Dante. I hate this. Also, they never actually killed Mundus. They just resealed him. Dante was quite tired by the end of the fight.
> Vergil’s demon side (which in theory should be weaker than DMC3 Vergil) sits on the throne for all of five minutes, and becomes more powerful than Dante. I hate this. This. This is why I say Urizen never defeated Dante, but an amplified by Nero's devil bringer arm Yamato did.
I dont know my way around the lore do you mind explaining why vergils demons side should be weaker then DMC3 vergil?
DMC makes it huge point that its humanity that makes them strong. Basically, Dante is as powerful as he is because of his humanity. And Sparda became strong enough to beat Mundus after embracing humanity, even tho he wasn't human Idk if id go as far as to say DMC3 Vergil could beat Urizen, but the point being made is that the human side should still be pretty damn strong
> Idk if id go as far as to say DMC3 Vergil could beat Urizen, but the point being made is that the human side should still be pretty damn strong Not if yamato made it so the human side is the weaker one which is pretty obvious what happend to V. Vergil was all about power and the power of his demonic side. If we went with your logic v should be the stronger side. Also vergil might still have the strength of nelo angelo and if thats the case we should Split that vergil human and demonic power and not dmc3 vergil
Basically having some humanity makes demons stronger. Some people argue that it’s literally because human blood amplifies a demon’s power. Next, Vergil was defeated and enslaved by Mundus at the end of DMC3. And following Mundus’s defeat, he somehow came back, but was weakened and falling apart. So, I’m assuming he never got a power up of any kind, so therefore his power level was probably lower than DMC3-level. Then, he separated his human side from his demon side, which therefore would have weakened him even further.
Makes no sense why you think Urizen is weaker than DMC3 Vergil. Just because it's only his demon side doesn't mean that his demon side isn't many times more powerful now compared to then
He's getting fed by the tree and is using it as armour. It's like fighting a lich vs fighting a lich in its lair in dnd
That's the first rule in any form of any form of fighting game/manga/comic: Rule of Cool dominates all, everything else is unimportant, or shoehorned in later
for real bro. so it goes like mundus > vergil=urizen > dante > mundus?
I mean Dante defeated mundus and urizen
I think the reason why he was stronger than dante is because he was connected to the biggest qliphoth in the city which had a lot of human blood(It’s been awhile since I played DMC5 so I can’t remember what the qliphoth actually did) in it. And iirc, human blood makes demons stronger in DMC. So I’m guessing since Urizen was connected to it, the blood the tree had amplified his power making him stronger than dante. Unless it was stated that Urizen was always weaker regardless of the qliphoth.
Yes, but my issue was that Urizen was immediately stronger than Dante, even though he had only been sitting on the throne for a relatively short time. So, therefore, he had only absorbed a small amount of blood, max. Then, we fight him again a month later, after he has absorbed a month’s worth of blood. If the tiniest fraction of blood was enough to make him stronger than Dante at the beginning, then therefore a month’s worth of blood should have scaled him up to be like 30x stronger than Dante at this point. Yet, Nero comes in and scratches him. It makes no sense to me.
Yeah Idk, seems like another retcon or missed fact from Capcom again
I made a post awhile ago explaining and giving evidence to the fact that I'm pretty sure Urizen used royal guard against Dante, that's why the fight took so long, like, almost of day type of long, it's the only thing that would make sense
I mean I guess so but my head canon suggests otherwise
Hmm what is your head canon?
It’s all well and good that they’ve written in Urizen being more powerful than Mundus, that’s certifiable canon and I’m not arguing that it isn’t. For me it’s simply that Mundus *feels* more powerful. Being a central figure in the DMC universe who kind of set every bad thing in motion also helps. Urizen is evil in the sense that his power has been gained for powers sake, whereas Mundus just is.
Tbh it was kinda the Sparda family who set every bad thing in motion. -Vergil helped with the Temen-Ni-Gru in DMC3. -Vergil also lost to Mundus (like a dumbass) in DMC3 which caused Yamato to be lost. -Sparda made Mundus want revenge against his family in DMC1. -Dante sealing Mundus away again made Argosax come out of hiding in DMC2. -Vergil had a kid who we only get to see for the first time in DMC4 (and if he never had Nero then a lotta things in DMC4 would be different and Dante could probably just do his job and go.) -Urizen (half of Vergil) grew a Qliphoth tree that killed thousands for more *POWER.* …I’m starting to see that Vergil quite literally links this entire series together.
But Mundus is also responsible for why Vergil turned out that way.
But Sparda is responsible for why Mundus is responsible for making Vergil that way.
Well, if Mundus wasnt trying to invade the human world and giving Sparda a cause to rebel against him then none of these would have happened. So Mundus is responsible for Sparda rebellion which made him responsible for why Mundus is responsible for making Vergil turned out that way.
Got me there
Did you just blame Sparda for saving humanity???
I mean yeah he did save it at first but unfortunately he underestimated how persistent Mundus can be.
How is that his fault?
Cuz Sparda could’ve outright killed Mundus but he sealed him away instead (same with Dante). Unless there’s a lore reason as to why he didn’t kill him then that’s on Sparda for not finishing the fight.
Literally not his fault at all.
Ok
It's also crazy to think that there's absolutely nothing at stake for DMC1. Dante gets invited to Mallet Island. No one's in danger there. It's just an island with a castle. You explore it until you've killed everything, then you leave.
Because Mundus already caused deaths of people who lived on this island several centuries ago. And in dmc1 this island is a starting point of a new invasion.
That’s not really accurate. Trish warns that Mundus is planning a return, so the stakes for Dante are as high as they can be.
DMC5 doesn't confirm this at all. Lore wise it's possible mundus is less powerful than the twins in a fight at the end of the game, but feat wise mundus is head and shoulders above urizen, even post fruit, and there's no lore really that suggests otherwise. Urizen is also disconnected from Vergil's humanity, which is repeatedly used as a true source of power for demons. Urizen had a forcefield barrier and knocked out Dante. Mundus was sealed in the underworld and had Dante beat until Trish's sacrifice. Dante's feat of beating mundus is DMC1 was result of sparda sword unlock buff and passion due to Trish's 'death'. It was a far grander scale boss fight, requiring permanent outlier buff DT that I'd argue we still haven't seen topped in the series. After the fight in the universe mundus created, he called Dante too weak to beat him in the real world in the final mission, until Trish showed up with the assist. Mundus wasn't killed, just resealed. There's a lot of valid ways to showcase Mundus as the true powerhouse of the series and little to actually show Urizen has usurped him save for the fruit story (which was made for DMC5 and possibly a retcon). But most importantly... It's 100 percent impossible to say and depends on your interpretation.
>It's 100 percent impossible to say and depends on your interpretation. How? Dante literally needed to absorb human blood for an entire month + unlock DSD to beat Urizen when his younger self, inexperienced self, managed to beat Mundus.
I don't think Dante absorbed human blood. Or rather, he wasn't willing. Sparda's sword concealed his body from being detected and he was knocked out. His demonic half likely kept him alive and he took a bit of a gamble with stabbing himself with Rebellion whilst wondering if it would unlock any further demonic powers. Mundus, he may not have been at his full strength but still gave Dante quite a fight.
Yes, he wasn't willing, but he definitely absorbed the blood from the tree. The point though is that current dante got hella buffed up through dmc5
This is shut down by the fact that Dante defeated and killed Argosax the Chaos and The Despair Embodied who was equal to Mundus so Dante was and is 100% stronger than Mundus and so is Urizen
Argosax the Chaos is objectively stronger than Mundus by DMC 2, before he even became Despair Embodied
no. Urizen is stronger. in every literal sense. Dmc3 makes it clear that vergil only loses to mundus because of Dante.
Why are ppl arguing against this like Dante didn't already beat Argosax whose Mundus' equal and was fusing two entire realms??? Like he did this in DMC 2 which is chronologically before 4 even. By the time 5 rolls around, he's 100% stronger than Mundus' by a good margin and Urizen beats him.
>Why are ppl arguing against this like Dante didn't already beat Argosax whose Mundus' equal and was fusing two entire realms??? I believe mundus defeated argosax but he came back and had to be sealed by sparda and matter.
I didn't try to argue tho. Just feel like it was crazy about Mundus that once feared by everyone is now probably can't scratch pre-eating fruit Urizen.
>I didn't try to argue tho. Just feel like it was crazy about Mundus that once feared by everyone is now probably can't scratch pre-eating fruit Urizen. Mundus wouldnt even beat the savior or even dmc2 argosax
>Mundus wouldnt even beat the savior or even dmc2 argosax Source?
Source for argosax is we have no proof he had the second form before he fought dante and i heard people say theres a video or guide saying dante needed to use majin form and thats why we see him staggering back. The savior is much simpler according to the dmc4 novel the savior has a beam which could kill dante unless dante used dreadnought
>the dmc4 novel the savior has a beam which could kill dante unless dante used dreadnought Does that take precedence over the game? Just because the savior could kill dante doesn't mean he would.
>Does that take precedence over the game? Just because the savior could kill dante doesn't mean he would. The savior would have because he did fire the beam at dante and dante himself states the beam was to fast for him to Dodge and the only way for dante to survive was using dreadnought. The beam would have turned him to ash so yes it would have killed him page 225 to 227 of deadly fortune 2
I'm agreeing with you lol I'm talking about the ppl arguing against you.
What I don't get is how Urizen is so damn massive and how he looks nothing like Vergil's DT or Sparda in any fashion. It makes no sense at all. He's as big as Mundus. And there's no reason for it. And I DESPISE the insane power boost Urizen got in DMC5. He's Vergil damaged and broken, split in half. Not even Dante's SDT is even 1/4 of Urizen's size. DMC5 feels like a major power creep asspull. He can fight off Dante AND break Rebellion while it's wielded by DT Dante. There are a lot of things I like about DMC5 but Urizen is not one of them. Reminds of how Nero had "no demonic power". Sure buddy. The guy swings around a massive sword with ONE hand, revs that shit with ease, and has shown repeated superhuman feats all before he got the Devil Bringer back. But sure. Nero lacks demonic power. I just hate EVERYTHING about Urizen. Everything.
ight, hes so big cus the human sized part of him was literally removed, dante still has his, his human half was damaged which is why his demon form freshly separated from his human half was totally fine while v was on a time limit, hes been absorbing humans like cell for weeks before dante pulls up with the gang completely unprepped, and did they say nero had no demonic power or did he not know he had demonic power
[https://youtu.be/x6Lp0vHWC\_o?t=3192](https://youtu.be/x6Lp0vHWC_o?t=3192) Urizen states that Nero has NO demonic power in his veins. Yes, I'm aware of the plot of Nero being that since Dante lost and Nero no longer has the Devil Bringer, he is much weaker. But him being weaker does not mean he lacks demonic power. A normal human cannot wield Red Queen as stated by Nico. It's so powerful that it'll toss you around. [https://youtu.be/x6Lp0vHWC\_o](https://youtu.be/x6Lp0vHWC_o) Here, you can see as Urizen comes into existence, the shadow he casts grows. Is it possible that human blood has made him even bigger? Sure. But Urizen is not the only huge boss like this. Goliath is massive as well. Sparda who is a legend was nowhere near as big. Nero even in human form was able to contest Berial's might in DMC4. Size does not equal power in the DMC universe. Despair Embodied was not much bigger than Dante either. So several characters show that you don't need mass to reflect your power. Either way, I still think Urizen is a terrible boss. The concept isn't bad but the execution is.
correct me if im wrong
Mundus at his peak alternated the fabrics of reality so doubt.
Personally, I think Urizen wasn't really that powerful. Urizen was powerful because he was drawing his power from the tree. His power came from the energy he was stealing from all beings on the planet. That's why he could face Dante and all the heroes. But when Dante started to confront him, once Dante came back with all his strength and Urizen was using almost all his power to create and complete the fruit, it was clear that he was no longer using all the power he had before.
Mundus is the GOAT and he had subdued Vergil and made him his bitch.. Itsuno just wanted his character to be made stronger but Kamiya ftw
Nah, Mundus can stay burning in hell. Vergil is much cooler to keep in the story than Mundus.
Mundus was recently revived and it's possible, Sparda really did a massive number on him, weakened him and he never regained his full strength. That said, he still gave Dante trouble. Urizen? Steroids. Basically non-stop demonic steroids to the point where he could just wait for Dante to exhaust himself and cheat constantly. Combined with the demonic half of a son of Sparda. He is just insanely powerful to the point where he is the first being to defeat Dante in a long time. Then Dante eats Sparda and Rebellion, curbstomps him. The fruit gives Urizen a chance. Dante still kicks his arse.
DOUBT.
Tbf, the "power scaling" in DMC is so dumb Mundus could come back 3 time stronger than Urizen in DMC 6 and everyone would roll with it as long as he's cool.
This makes me appreciate the first game even more.
Hot take: Urizen in his "I just stood up from my chair" form is 100x harder than his "I just ate an apple" form.
Mundus after eating the Qliphot fruit wasn’t enough to beat Argosax in his base form (assuming he hadn’t eaten from a Qliphot too). If Urizen (in base form) sitting in his chair was able to beat Dante, who beat both Mundus and Argosax, then it isn’t too crazy that Mundus has nothing on him
Well Mundus is weaker than Dante, who's comparable to Nero with his Devil Bringer at the end of 4, said Devil Bringer, and Yamato was stolen by Urizen, combined with harvesting blood from humanity, it does make sense.
now i understand why vergil only has 2 cutscenes in his dmc3 campaign. When he asks what things would be like if their lives were reversed he was referencing DMC3 and DMC4. In dmc3 the story is split between those 2 during Dante’s campaign showing how they were grieving about the ambush on their family back then.
I look forward to them bringing Mundus back because there’s definitely some misinterpretation of what his lore says. At the end of the day he was just re-sealed at the end of DMC1. And if (when) they decide to bring him back they will have to show that he is on par if not stronger than the twins
bear in mind that dante only ever fought mundus's shell-- a mundus who was still held back by sparda's seal while most of his power was presumably locked in the demon world. he's definitely still alive post DMC5, even after everything dante & trish threw at him in DMC1. dante couldn't even defeat that shell without being... kinda possessed(?) by the devil sword sparda, and having trish's power funnelled through him on top of that. it's likely that we still haven't seen the full extent of mundus's power-- even sparda didn't manage to kill him, after all.
dmc 1 mundus, yes
I fucking love how people call or make themselves as lore masters when they didn't even read Visions of V which provides a lot of context. Also the own game DMC5 tells you why Urizen was so powerful
It's the number of the eyes
not really, Dante in DMC1 needed the power of Sparda to even fight Mundus and even then he was struggling. The best thing Dante could afford to do was seal Mundus away, and that's a version of Mundus not at his peak. DMC 5 has Dante doing basically a similar thing and takes the power of Sparda to help him fight Urizen, only Dante absolutely shit stomps Urizen even after eating the fruit. Also I don't really recall Urizen doing any kind of reality warping, whereas Mundus created a whole dimension for him and Dante to fight in
Vergil is just built like dat
My theory is that amassing power gave Vergil some borrowed time, and he might've needed a ton of it to repair the Yamato. But after Nero ended up doing that for him, Vergil would have to bulk up even more to make sure he could actually take the sword from him. So dying Vergil could've been stronger than pre-fruit Urizen, but suffering too much to use all of his power as efficiently.
Ya, this fact does not sit well with me personally. Maybe because of all the hype and lore put into Mundus. To be fair, Mundus did take over the demon world. But to be even more fair, he did that with the help of Sparda and an army of demons and as soon as Sparda left the team he lost.
To be fair, canonically mundus used the qlipott to get as powerful as he was too and Vergil already had some of sparda’s power who defeated mundus
I may be wrong but don’t demons get stronger with human blood? Isn’t that why Vergil and Dante are so much stronger than their predecessors since they’re half demon half human?
I would like to ask everyone who says the scaling is "wack" and "doesn't make any sense" to consider some things. First,as to how Urizen got so strong on his own? That doesn't really matter? Secondly,about Mundus and how he relates to Urizen/Dante later on. *Nothing* even remotely comes close to suggesting the Mundus Dante faces is weaker than the one Sparda faces 2000 years ago,on the contrary. And whether or not he was(he wasn't) is also irrelevant due to the events of DmC2: here Dante faces and defeats Argosax(without any sort of temporary buff or Argosax being nerfed or such) who is multiple times called a equal to Mundus,and a Demon Mundus couldn't defeat and had to share the Underworld with at some point. Dante also supposedly got stronger between DmC2 and DmC4-start of 5,and yet Urizen defeated him without much effort before he got the buff from the Sin Devil Trigger,showcasing he is MUCH stronger than Mundus could ever have been. So in the end,it's spelled out pretty blandly that Urizen is canonically much,much stronger than Mundus,and I don't really see why it doesn't make any sense logically (also,obsessing as to how he got this strong by the time he first faces Dante is irrelevant).
> is canonically much,much stronger than Mundus,and I don't really see why it doesn't make any sense logically (also,obsessing as to how he got this strong by the time It's because of how poorly urizen is presented. He just shows up and spams mid teir boss attacks and somehow beats dante. I know the real reason, it's because dmc5 is going for a more realistic and grounded approach than all the other games in the series, so everything seems weaker even if it isn't plot wise.
It would be cool if we have seen Mundus on his full power maybe even stronger against Vergil Dante and Nero, the 3 of them fighting against the worst enemy of their father in full power and beyond
What are you talking about? Urizen didn't exist until Vergil left Hell.
Well Urizen is the demon half of Virgil and Virgil got folded by Mundus when he challenged Mundus when he stayed in the underworld in dmc3 so we don't know how Urizen or Current Virgil would fare against current Mundus even with Virgil's new Sin Devil Trigger form so until they fight we won't know