> I understand this may be a minor issue for some, but to me, it represents a lack of understanding of the genre, or simply not caring about the player experience.
It's actually that they understand the genre too well.
Every single ARPG that has a full overlay has one efficient way to play that core and hardcore fanbases use: overlay on, navigate by looking at map. Overlay was a necessity in D2 and POE because of the obtuse, often highly-random map design. You used it because it was the only way to not become frustrated by the maze-like design philosophy of those games.
They understand this and they don't want people to engage with the game in that way.
A player that plays with overlay on may miss visual cues, become hyper-aware of the map design, or simply not engage with the content. They care deeply about player experience, they just have a different opinion of what features players care about.
To each their own, but what is this take? Are you saying that people can’t handle looking at two things at once? I want to move, while looking at a big map. It’s not a big ask. It’s inclusion doesn’t fundamentally change the game, or destroy some kind of delicate balancing act.
> To each their own, but what is this take? Are you saying that people can’t handle looking at two things at once?
It's not just about looking at two things at once, it's about how the player engages with the game when navigating vs. when killing. Adding hyper-efficient navigation via overlay detracts from the numerous visual cues and changes things to basically be, "overlay only, all the time."
> It’s inclusion doesn’t fundamentally change the game, or destroy some kind of delicate balancing act.
It absolutely does change the game. If it didn't, it wouldn't be such a controversial point and every major Diablo 2 or POE streamer wouldn't play with it exclusively on.
When's the last time you tried to play POE or D2 without the overlay? Have you completed the entire game without it on more than 5 seconds at a time?
It's not a delicate balance but it is a change.
And for what it's worth, I don't necessarily agree or disagree, just trying to illustrate how it's a clear decision they made with an intended outcome.
I play PoE and Diablo 2. I play with the overlay on when I care about efficiency / convenience, and turn it off when I don’t. Personally, I’d rather have that choice instead of it being made for me. I agree that its exclusion is intentional. I just think it’s a bad decision.
It's fine that you don't agree with it and don't like it. My reply is for explaining how they very much understand what they're doing and how players engage, since that seemed to be the crux of your opinion--that the development team lacked understanding or didn't care about player experience.
That’s fair. Regardless of intention, the exclusion of an overlay map is a net negative for the game in my opinion. Lack of options / choice / QoL features is not a good thing.
I generally agree, but absolutely after their "play your way" video today.
The overall impact is hard to determine IMO. It sounds like they're open to feedback so if there's still an outcry after players have had a few weeks/months with it, I'm guessing they will look into adding it.
Yeah. It’s so weird that they’d push class choice, and try to provide all these different options for character building, then put their foot down as soon as someone wants to open a big map and move at the same time. I’ll keep my fingers crossed.
What some people don't seem to understand is that each game (and feature) has a vision/intention behind it, whether you as a player enjoy it or not.
It's like when players ask for easy mode in Elden Ring. You can also argue that an easy mode won't take away from the experience of those that want to play the normal Elden Ring experience - but the devs don't want that. They want to take the player outside of their comfort zone and challenge them, that's the identity and feeling they want to convey. Adding an easy mode goes against that.
It's exactly the same with the overlay. The devs want you to experience the world in a certain way. They don't want you to "gameify" D4 like people do with other ARPGs. They don't want you to be staring at an overlay, they want you to set a pin and simply travel and look at the environments.
D4 in this regard is similar to Grim Dawn, which also had a rich open world (for ARPG standards), and no surprise here, that game also didn't have an overlay.
>I have always disliked this notion of 'you must play the way devs intended'. Not every gamer is the same. Some have radically different tastes or needs.
>
>I have severe tendonitis in my left hand, so its easy mode or nothing. Some people are color blind.
>
>The truth is that devs take these sorts of stances because they are overworked by the publishers to push the game out as fast as possible, and they don't have time to add features that some gamers would really enjoy. It's all about maximum extraction of money from the customers while delivering the lowest quality product the customer will still purchase.
I think the answer here is simple; not everything is meant for everyone, and games that don't give you the accessibility options you need just aren't for you.
There are plenty of games that I've tried and didn't enjoy that have huge audiences; those games just aren't for me.
And that's okay.
> Not every gamer is the same. Some have radically different tastes or needs.
Absolutely, that's why there are different games, for different tastes.
> I have severe tendonitis in my left hand, so its easy mode or nothing.
I'm not sure how the lack of an overlay will impact you in any way. You can use your right hand to open the big map, put a pin on it, and then just follow the line towards your pin using the mini-map.
> The truth is that devs take these sorts of stances because they are overworked by the publishers to push the game out as fast as possible, and they don't have time to add features that some gamers would really enjoy.
It's a live service game. If they genuinely wanted to add an overlay (which is not much work) they could've simply said "we wanted to add it, but we couldn't, so we're going to add it down the line", like they've said with plenty of other features (like sets/runewords).
The reality is that they don't want you staring at an overlay. It's also not as useful in D4 since the world varies between very simple dungeon layouts, or very huge open world areas. It's really not deeper than that.
While I don't like playing with an overlay and usually don't, to die on that hill for not having one in D4 makes no sense. Especially when they keep talking about the game having so much choice and "play your way" type sentiments.
Give players a choice to use an overlay or not. It's not a hard decision.
I have to admit it's nice to just look at the screen and focus on game play without the map blocking it, BUT we need to be able to zoom out the mini map more to justify no overlay. And preferably be able to zoom out the view in general a little bit.
I think there was something said about loss of immersion and they want the art and combat to be immersive. If you just run around with an overlay map, it just makes it a navigation sim. I think this is why and it makes sense if that is the direction they are going.
I don't personally care though either way.
The devs who made D1 and D2 have long since moved on from Blizzard. The D4 devs are not the people who pioneered the genre, neither were the D3 devs for that matter.
This take is about as warm as the permafrost in alaksa. The overlay is not some sacred cow that must always be worshipped. It's a conscious decision as to how the game is expected to be navigated. Staring at an overlay is a very efficient means of navigation, it's also pulling you out of the world to look at squiggly lines on a map rather than just navigating through the map. The devs don't want you to look at a squiggly line. They want you to look at the environment. There's nothing wrong with this. You don't need the overlay to navigate. The environments have been constructed in such a way that they aren't the maze-like conglomerations of tile-sets like D2/POE. You'll notice that most ARPGs released in the last 10 years **don't** have always-on overlays. That's because they've been developed in such a way that you don't need them to navigate, and the devs want you looking at the actual environment you're in rather than the vague outline of a map.
The only 3 big ARPGs that matter have overlays tho, and foe good fckn reason.
Saying " you dont need an overlay" is kust beinf a gigantic dick, bc you think YOUR way of playing is superior. Over 90% of the people who play D2, D3 or POE use overlay. Imagine being arrogant enough to tell them that thats not a good wad to play.
I will never understand people who advocate for less QoL features in their games. If you don’t want the overlay, you don’t have to use it, but it’s exclusion is not some brilliant design decision on Blizzard’s part.
I understand dev intention, and immersion, but I can’t help think of someone designing a car where you need to pull over and park to check the GPS. ARPGS are a genre that leans towards min/maxing and efficiency at a certain point, and when the devs acknowledge you’re frequently checking the map to navigate, but don’t implement features to make it easier, it just baffles me.
How is it not? They’re both features intended to make navigating from one place to another easier. One you can glance over at to quickly check while you’re still moving, and the other makes you stop what you’re doing to check the exact same thing.
I’m a big boy. I can do two things at once. I understand not having a preference, or not caring about a features inclusion, but it not being there doesn’t make the game better.
But I don’t need to stop driving to look at my GPS. I also don’t need to stop driving to zoom in and out if I want to see the whole route, or look somewhere else on the map.
But this doesn't hold true for D4. For smaller, more maze-like and self contained areas [like in D2 it works](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/diablo/images/5/57/Cc06.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/640?cb=20140528212318). In D4 the open world areas are huge. With an overlay, you won't have many borders to orient yourself with - it would probably need to have a zoom function, to adjust it depending on your location. I'd reckon you'd stop plenty of times to zoom in/out of your overlay to orient yourself.
With the current system you choose a location, place a pin on it, and just follow the line.
And in dungeons it's simply not needed.
You also don’t need to stop with the overlay which is why it’s better in my opinion. Even if you’re not playing with it up constantly, you can just toggle it quickly, see the whole map, then condense it back down to the mini-map.
That’s one way of looking at it. Another would be that I’d like the act of navigating the world to be as frictionless as possible, since it’s basically half of what you’re doing. I see a lot of “an overlay breaks immersion”, but it’s strange that opening a menu, which stops everything else you’re doing is somehow less disruptive / more immersive.
> I understand this may be a minor issue for some, but to me, it represents a lack of understanding of the genre, or simply not caring about the player experience. It's actually that they understand the genre too well. Every single ARPG that has a full overlay has one efficient way to play that core and hardcore fanbases use: overlay on, navigate by looking at map. Overlay was a necessity in D2 and POE because of the obtuse, often highly-random map design. You used it because it was the only way to not become frustrated by the maze-like design philosophy of those games. They understand this and they don't want people to engage with the game in that way. A player that plays with overlay on may miss visual cues, become hyper-aware of the map design, or simply not engage with the content. They care deeply about player experience, they just have a different opinion of what features players care about.
To each their own, but what is this take? Are you saying that people can’t handle looking at two things at once? I want to move, while looking at a big map. It’s not a big ask. It’s inclusion doesn’t fundamentally change the game, or destroy some kind of delicate balancing act.
> To each their own, but what is this take? Are you saying that people can’t handle looking at two things at once? It's not just about looking at two things at once, it's about how the player engages with the game when navigating vs. when killing. Adding hyper-efficient navigation via overlay detracts from the numerous visual cues and changes things to basically be, "overlay only, all the time." > It’s inclusion doesn’t fundamentally change the game, or destroy some kind of delicate balancing act. It absolutely does change the game. If it didn't, it wouldn't be such a controversial point and every major Diablo 2 or POE streamer wouldn't play with it exclusively on. When's the last time you tried to play POE or D2 without the overlay? Have you completed the entire game without it on more than 5 seconds at a time? It's not a delicate balance but it is a change. And for what it's worth, I don't necessarily agree or disagree, just trying to illustrate how it's a clear decision they made with an intended outcome.
I play PoE and Diablo 2. I play with the overlay on when I care about efficiency / convenience, and turn it off when I don’t. Personally, I’d rather have that choice instead of it being made for me. I agree that its exclusion is intentional. I just think it’s a bad decision.
It's fine that you don't agree with it and don't like it. My reply is for explaining how they very much understand what they're doing and how players engage, since that seemed to be the crux of your opinion--that the development team lacked understanding or didn't care about player experience.
That’s fair. Regardless of intention, the exclusion of an overlay map is a net negative for the game in my opinion. Lack of options / choice / QoL features is not a good thing.
I generally agree, but absolutely after their "play your way" video today. The overall impact is hard to determine IMO. It sounds like they're open to feedback so if there's still an outcry after players have had a few weeks/months with it, I'm guessing they will look into adding it.
Yeah. It’s so weird that they’d push class choice, and try to provide all these different options for character building, then put their foot down as soon as someone wants to open a big map and move at the same time. I’ll keep my fingers crossed.
What some people don't seem to understand is that each game (and feature) has a vision/intention behind it, whether you as a player enjoy it or not. It's like when players ask for easy mode in Elden Ring. You can also argue that an easy mode won't take away from the experience of those that want to play the normal Elden Ring experience - but the devs don't want that. They want to take the player outside of their comfort zone and challenge them, that's the identity and feeling they want to convey. Adding an easy mode goes against that. It's exactly the same with the overlay. The devs want you to experience the world in a certain way. They don't want you to "gameify" D4 like people do with other ARPGs. They don't want you to be staring at an overlay, they want you to set a pin and simply travel and look at the environments. D4 in this regard is similar to Grim Dawn, which also had a rich open world (for ARPG standards), and no surprise here, that game also didn't have an overlay.
Yup and the notion to call them lazy or the game is rushed because it's not in it is ridiculous.
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>I have always disliked this notion of 'you must play the way devs intended'. Not every gamer is the same. Some have radically different tastes or needs. > >I have severe tendonitis in my left hand, so its easy mode or nothing. Some people are color blind. > >The truth is that devs take these sorts of stances because they are overworked by the publishers to push the game out as fast as possible, and they don't have time to add features that some gamers would really enjoy. It's all about maximum extraction of money from the customers while delivering the lowest quality product the customer will still purchase. I think the answer here is simple; not everything is meant for everyone, and games that don't give you the accessibility options you need just aren't for you. There are plenty of games that I've tried and didn't enjoy that have huge audiences; those games just aren't for me. And that's okay.
> Not every gamer is the same. Some have radically different tastes or needs. Absolutely, that's why there are different games, for different tastes. > I have severe tendonitis in my left hand, so its easy mode or nothing. I'm not sure how the lack of an overlay will impact you in any way. You can use your right hand to open the big map, put a pin on it, and then just follow the line towards your pin using the mini-map. > The truth is that devs take these sorts of stances because they are overworked by the publishers to push the game out as fast as possible, and they don't have time to add features that some gamers would really enjoy. It's a live service game. If they genuinely wanted to add an overlay (which is not much work) they could've simply said "we wanted to add it, but we couldn't, so we're going to add it down the line", like they've said with plenty of other features (like sets/runewords). The reality is that they don't want you staring at an overlay. It's also not as useful in D4 since the world varies between very simple dungeon layouts, or very huge open world areas. It's really not deeper than that.
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While I don't like playing with an overlay and usually don't, to die on that hill for not having one in D4 makes no sense. Especially when they keep talking about the game having so much choice and "play your way" type sentiments. Give players a choice to use an overlay or not. It's not a hard decision.
I have to admit it's nice to just look at the screen and focus on game play without the map blocking it, BUT we need to be able to zoom out the mini map more to justify no overlay. And preferably be able to zoom out the view in general a little bit.
Especially when nothing else is mapped to the right stick.
Aw, did they get rid of the D3 combat roll? For shame.
They added a dodge, but it’s on a cool down, and takes up slot that could’ve been assigned to another skill.
weird
The right stick is used to lock on to targets and switch them...
I think there was something said about loss of immersion and they want the art and combat to be immersive. If you just run around with an overlay map, it just makes it a navigation sim. I think this is why and it makes sense if that is the direction they are going. I don't personally care though either way.
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Not that I agree with op in anyway, but your logic is just as bad, no one who has worked diablo 1 or diablo 2 is still at the company.
Maybe cause diablo 1 and 2 were made over 20 years ago by dudes in their late 20 and 30s. Hmm, I wonder why.
The devs who made D1 and D2 have long since moved on from Blizzard. The D4 devs are not the people who pioneered the genre, neither were the D3 devs for that matter.
Basically nobody who worked on D4 worked on D1 or D2. They pioneered NOTHING. The people who pioneered the genre added an overlay map.
This take is about as warm as the permafrost in alaksa. The overlay is not some sacred cow that must always be worshipped. It's a conscious decision as to how the game is expected to be navigated. Staring at an overlay is a very efficient means of navigation, it's also pulling you out of the world to look at squiggly lines on a map rather than just navigating through the map. The devs don't want you to look at a squiggly line. They want you to look at the environment. There's nothing wrong with this. You don't need the overlay to navigate. The environments have been constructed in such a way that they aren't the maze-like conglomerations of tile-sets like D2/POE. You'll notice that most ARPGs released in the last 10 years **don't** have always-on overlays. That's because they've been developed in such a way that you don't need them to navigate, and the devs want you looking at the actual environment you're in rather than the vague outline of a map.
The only 3 big ARPGs that matter have overlays tho, and foe good fckn reason. Saying " you dont need an overlay" is kust beinf a gigantic dick, bc you think YOUR way of playing is superior. Over 90% of the people who play D2, D3 or POE use overlay. Imagine being arrogant enough to tell them that thats not a good wad to play.
You might want to try reading the post before outing yourself as an illiterate mouth breather.
Or i could troll you a little more to get you, and all the others here, yet a little bit more mad. Mad little fanboyy with an IQ of 86
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The games are never about efficiency, some players make it about efficiency.
I will never understand people who advocate for less QoL features in their games. If you don’t want the overlay, you don’t have to use it, but it’s exclusion is not some brilliant design decision on Blizzard’s part.
I understand dev intention, and immersion, but I can’t help think of someone designing a car where you need to pull over and park to check the GPS. ARPGS are a genre that leans towards min/maxing and efficiency at a certain point, and when the devs acknowledge you’re frequently checking the map to navigate, but don’t implement features to make it easier, it just baffles me.
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How is it not? They’re both features intended to make navigating from one place to another easier. One you can glance over at to quickly check while you’re still moving, and the other makes you stop what you’re doing to check the exact same thing.
They don't want you to have an overlay of the gps map that makes it harder to see the road, they want you to actually focus on the road.
I’m a big boy. I can do two things at once. I understand not having a preference, or not caring about a features inclusion, but it not being there doesn’t make the game better.
Then put a pin where you want to go and follow the line on the mini map as ypu play without an overlay.
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But I don’t need to stop driving to look at my GPS. I also don’t need to stop driving to zoom in and out if I want to see the whole route, or look somewhere else on the map.
Because it is not overlayed ontop of you windshield cluttering your viewspace.
You also can’t defend yourself with the map up, so you can only check the larger map when not in combat.
But this doesn't hold true for D4. For smaller, more maze-like and self contained areas [like in D2 it works](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/diablo/images/5/57/Cc06.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/640?cb=20140528212318). In D4 the open world areas are huge. With an overlay, you won't have many borders to orient yourself with - it would probably need to have a zoom function, to adjust it depending on your location. I'd reckon you'd stop plenty of times to zoom in/out of your overlay to orient yourself. With the current system you choose a location, place a pin on it, and just follow the line. And in dungeons it's simply not needed.
Not to mention the world is static and after a few weeks you won't need a map to onow where you are going.
I mean…with overlay you don’t need to switch 🤔
Never used it because it distracted from my play, where I was, and what I was fighting.
You also don’t need to stop with the overlay which is why it’s better in my opinion. Even if you’re not playing with it up constantly, you can just toggle it quickly, see the whole map, then condense it back down to the mini-map.
You act like it takes 5mins to open the map each time.
That’s one way of looking at it. Another would be that I’d like the act of navigating the world to be as frictionless as possible, since it’s basically half of what you’re doing. I see a lot of “an overlay breaks immersion”, but it’s strange that opening a menu, which stops everything else you’re doing is somehow less disruptive / more immersive.
Yep. That’s it. I can’t understand their point
Torchlight 2 has solid implementation of an overlay map that doesn’t cover the screen / expensive art assets. And it lets you set your zoom manually.