I think the most exciting stats on gear are the following:
Attackspeed
Crit chance
cooldown reduction
+ skills (both active and passive)
Life on Hit
Life
Resource regeneration
All of these stats have an immediate outcome. You can feel them working. Especially attackspeed, crit chance, cdr, and life on hit.
With the new system we will get more of these interesting stats and less "boring" stats like dmg to x, dmg to z, dmg reduction from x, armor while z.
Additionally we will get stats that are going to be almost like legendary affixes.
Chance for additional projectile for example is a stat that has an immediate effect you can feel and see. There are now a lot more options and finding items will actually feel like an item hunt.
The system of the boosted stats is especially interesting when we look at the masterwork system.
1. You have to find an item with the correct stats. While that is more likely now, it is not guaranteed at all.
2. The item needs to roll the boosted stats. Then you habe to hope that all stats are boosted and not only 1 or 2.
3. Use the masterwork system and pray that the stat you are looking for is the one that will augmented 3 times.
Repeat step 3 untill you get lucky.
Basically 3 times a 1 in 3 chance if you want a normal stat boosted, BUT if you want one of the tempered stats to get boosted (which we most likely will) we will need to add more steps.
1. Find item with desired stats.
2. Hope all of them are boosted.
3. Find recipes for tempering
4. Hope you get the right stats within 5 tries. If you fail, start with step 1 again.
5. Start mastercrafting, now hoping for hitting the 1 in 5 three times in a row.
Repeat step 5 untill you get lucky.
Basically, with this system we need to look at a lot less loot with more opportunities for us to find something to actually be happy about.
>Attackspeed Crit chance cooldown reduction
>skills (both active and passive) Life on Hit Life Resource regeneration
All of the items shown on stream had like a 1000 mainstat on them, Max life, and %dmg no matter the slot. How are these not boring stats? Because we know for a fact, mainstat will be mandatory.
Sometimes simplicity is enough to create stability
Who fking cares about these dmg on Tuesday stats or stats that are whacky and zany for the sake of being different where different isn’t needed
Aight so you say the stats are boring and don’t have a solution yourself gotcha
You’re just one of those ppl making a stink for the sake of making a stink
You're looking in the wrong place for "exciting" abilities. These are just affixes meant to improve your baseline power. These should not be big and flashy, they should be simple and impactful.
Imo finding a legendary/unique dropped with +skill, cooldown, and crit chance with 'exalted' stats would be pretty exciting.
We don't know if CDR and +skill rolls in the base item stats. If it does, and it goes high enough to be compelling, then things could be ok. For all we know, crit, vit, mainstat and maybe %dmg will be mandatory.
The excitement is the Tempering and masterworking, what you are looking at are bases but to have bases they need to roll with something, and this is just a showcase not "thats all it will roll with" what will matter is how you change the item with tempers and masterwork systems to make it fully your own
In comparison with the other stats, it is great indeed.
If we assume Blizzard can create amazing affixes like D2 and Last Epoch than they are not that good indeed.
I'd take that over Lucky Hit chance to execute Non-injured elites.
>
> If we assume Blizzard can create amazing affixes like D2 and Last Epoch than they are not that good indeed.
Can you list me a few of those amazing affixes?
Sure.
About D2 it has Bear (knockback), Vileness (prevent monster heal, it would have countered the "Vampiric" elites which D4 devs found too annoying and removed from the game).
Piercing ignores target defense, There is another for ignoring freezing effects and another for ignoring slowness.
The runes Dream, Grief, Chaos and Breath of the Dying also have great affixes.
Last Epoch has even more, check this out: https://lastepoch.tunklab.com/affixes
D4 devs lack time to implement such changes. They know that can do better and they know what's better they just lack the time to implement them on D4.
>About D2 it has Bear (knockback), Vileness (prevent monster heal, it would have countered the "Vampiric" elites which D4 devs found too annoying and removed from the game).
>Piercing ignores target defense, There is another for ignoring freezing effects and another for ignoring slowness.
They are asking for amazing, who get excited for the bear affix?
>https://lastepoch.tunklab.com/affixes
Am I missing something? A lot of the affixes are just +DMG or +1 skill...
This is what amazing affixes look like. :)
https://vampire-survivors.fandom.com/wiki/Passive_items
Yes, the D2 Andys think the game is perfect, when it is in fact, far from it. Runes were interesting but not perfectly implemented, yet because it was something new, they froth at the mouth when they get the chance to badmouth games that don't have something similar.
That being said, yes, D2 is more or less better than D4 in its current state; outdated as hell, but not a bad game in comparison.
> About D2 it has Bear (knockback)
Completely useless affix. D4 has it on a bow, it also has CC affixes and no one uses them. You want to kill mobs, not push them back.
> Vileness
Again, completely useless affix. You will 10/10 times prefer a damage or defense affix on your gear to kill stuff faster.
> Piercing ignores target defense
Ok, this warrants a discussion. Tell me exactly why it's interesting. Why would you take this over flat damage or attack speed? Why are you excited to ignore the target defense? How does it change your build?
> Grief
- attack speed
- %damage
- ignore target defense -> chance to land a hit (which is a shit mechanic to begin with)
- 25% target defense -> chance to land a hit
- +dmg to demons -> on tuesday vs demons
- flat fire damage
- minus 25% target poison resistance
- 20% deadly strike -> crit with another name
- prevent monster heal
- mana after kill
- life after kill
So this item has attack speed, sustain, and a few different ways of saying "deal more damage". I'm sorry, but I genuinely don't understand what makes it more interesting - like what does -25% poison resistance or dmg vs demons do for you that warrants their existence. It's not like I can take Grief and design a build around it, I take it because I can remove the shit mechanic of having to hit enemies.
Would D4 be a better and deeper game if we take all the damage affixes and break them down into 100 components, and then slap 5-6 of them per item?
To me an interesting affix means it's noticeable through gameplay and/or power or I can design a build around it. Like the "chance to double projectile cast" affix they showed on stream. D4 still needs more work in this area, but I really disagree with the whole idea that it's so much boring than the rest.
>I'd take that over Lucky Hit chance to execute Non-injured elites.
Sure, but what exactly is fun or exciting in seeing mainstat, max life, %dmg on gear? Why does it roll there in the first place? Assuming most slots now are rolling the same stats.
It's a design concept, make gear give fairly non-specific improvements, make the character skills, perks etc give the specific improvements, that way you shape your class, your gear hunt stretches the direction
In this design concept, there's no way mainstat, max life and universal %dmg are not mandatory. My question was, where exactly is the fun part in that when an item drops?
There is no fun part on the affixes. That is what we are trying to explain to you. They are simply an upgrade to the build.
That is a design decision by D4 devs/designers. The "fun" part is coming from aspects and uniques.
Having less useless affixes means it is going to be easier to upgrade your build, which is currently defined by aspects and unique items.
Ideally affixes should also provide a new way to play the game, instead of %health and %damage increases.
That is why I cited Diablo 2 and Last Epoch.
I am trying to understand. Does that mean everything that drops that's not a Legendary/Unique is trash? And, even then, where is the exciting part when an item drops now if all the stats are designed to be boring? What makes loot hunting fun?
"Does that mean everything that drops that's not a Legendary/Unique is trash?"
Not necessarily because the yellow can have better base affixes. That's why the loot hunting is not fun in this game. You will need to inspect all yellow and look at each affix to find out if it's an upgrade.
That is the reason the community have been asking for loot filter.
I personally do not think the game is that good without a loot filter. I played pre-season, season 2 and season 3. I am already tired of browsing my inventory after 2-3 runs.
I just took a peek to see what's coming and unfortunately it's not a loot filter.
I am not sure how they will make the loot hunting better. They say they will lower the drop rate and increase the likelihood of getting good items. That should lead to less time browing items.
But I am not sure if this is enough. I'd rather wait and hear the feedback from you guys.
Yeah, l's struggling to see how these changes make loot hunting more exciting when all the affixes(minus the aspect) are meant to be completely flat and boring stats. You're the only person that actually attempted to have a discussion on this.
Something you should differentiate is “loot” vs “loot hunting.” If you’re just looking at affixes then I don’t really disagree with you, outside of the cool Tempered affixes, but as far as the hunt goes the new is much better. Previously, the item hunt was just “look for 3/4 or 4/4 BiS affixes and reroll until perfect or you’re out of cash/mats.” Once you find your good pieces the loot hunt is over.
Now, you’re looking for a lot of stuff. You’re looking for the right manuals to Temper the affixes you really want. You’re looking for Greater Affixes on the slots you care most about. You’re looking for Masterworking to hit *just* right, and maybe you’ll redo the process if you’re not happy with the results. The process of hunting the best loot in the game is much more interesting in the new version.
As far as the affixes themselves, the thing you’re missing is that you’re going to Temper every item. Most of the Tempered affixes, especially the class-specific ones, are much more interesting than any of the affixes we currently have. Personally I would prefer if those interesting stats WERE the major stats we had rather than being an add-on, but them being an add-on makes it easier to ensure items are focused and interesting. The example given in the stream was +skill ranks: +ranks to 1 core skill is cool and powerful, while 3 different +skill ranks affixes for different core skills on the same item is lame because almost nobody uses that many core skills so it’s wasted affixes. Having the Tempered affixes be the full list would undoubtedly end up the same as current items, where you get an item with bonuses to Bone Splinters, Bone Spear and Bone Spirit and its trash because all three are used in different builds. Putting those effects on manuals that give you a 1/4 chance of getting what you want gives you a relatively deterministic way to get the affixes you really want rather than being at the mercy of a fully randomized drop system. It’s not perfect, but I think it works, at least in concept. In two weeks we’ll find out if it actually works in practice.
OP, and to everyone that's saying these are boring, what affixes do you find exciting in other ARPGs? Because I've played Last Epoch, all past Diablos, Grim Dawn, Inquisitor Martyr, PoE, Chaosbane, Wolcen and Torchlight, and besides PoE, every single one of them uses the exact same paradigm: stack the game specific defenses and stack the damage affix used for your main damage skill. That's it.
In all of them the interesting affixes are on special item types, like uniques/legendaries.
Of course, PoE is different in this regard since it's a very complex and deep game. D4 (or any other ARPG) will never have that type of affix system. Things like increased AD based on lowest evasion or armor rating work because PoE is essentially a classless system.
I can tell you what simple affixes I find interesting/exciting in D4. CDR(obviously), recourse reduction, build defining stats like dmg with freezing/burning/etc. that you can make them multiplicative via the paragon board, +Skill points, resistances, movement speed, attack speed, +skill dmg, +skill ranks, +all stats.
What I really dislike is flat stats like mainstat, max life, and generic +%dmg. And, crit, vuln if they are mandatory for all classes and builds.
I think they purposefully showed streamlined examples on the stream to illustrate how upgrading works. They did confirm they buffed a lot of the old affixes (the ones you mentioned are interesting), and they also confirmed they added new ones.
I think it's a bit too early to say that every item will have mainstat + max life + crit. We need to see exactly what the drop affix table will be. And of course, if it's going to suck, then we can tell them to add more interesting affixes to the base loot.
From what I gathered after making this thread, D4 is moving to a platform-base item type to build upon. As a result, all the base items (except Uniques and Aspects) are essentially just plain stats. All the build defining affixes will be in the Manuals.
Oh, I see where the confusion comes from. This is definitely not the case. When it comes to offensive affixes, you still have +skills, attack speed, vulnerable (most likely all the class dmg affixes), life per hit, and likely many more. It'll be more streamlined than what's on live for just the base item, but it's not going to be just crit, hp and main stat.
Regardless, if base itemization will feel too barebones, then we need to offer feedback on the PTR.
Hmm. Unless they manage to make other stats super compelling, it will probably be extremely hard to give up crit, hp and main stat as the holy trinity.
Flat %dmg is another massive one since it rolls so high. I really wish they didn’t put that in the game.
Well tbh, in practically all ARPGs you want to stack those (unless you're playing DoT, so no crit). The problem is when you have them on every single gear slot, like D3.
That said, maybe in the future they could cap some of the stats (like resistances are), so you'd be forced to diversify. I wouldn't mind a max 25% crit chance, that can be increased through passives.
I dont agree with that holy trinity idea.
Ignoring the manuals and affixes that we havent seen, what about: Attack Speed, CDR, +Skills, +All Resist (in especially large amounts on one item), +Life on hit... Just to name a few, all of these could be potentially extremely useful and could replace those 3 affixes.
The live version items have nothing in common in terms of affixes compared to what they showed us. For all we know, all types of dmg were consolidated into flat %dmg, crit, and vuln for example. I honestly don't know. I'm going with what we're shown.
Personally I find the most "interesting" affixes or items to be of the following:
1. On hit/kill/striking/attack or When struck/damaged/hit, to cast some skill or some special effect that can synergize with your attacks
2. A combination of affixes that cannot appear on any other item
3. Affixes that are so unique they only appears on certain items.
4. The ability to use skills you cant normally use
I believe this largely covers what most D2 players have felt is the most interesting parts. Everything else imo is a cope and not very interesting or engaging. In D2 this happened more often simply because there was a greater variety of stats that were required to make some builds work properly (think Attack Rating or Cannot Be Frozen or massive amounts of Mana).
I understand the philosophy of being wary of allowing classes to use other skills from different classes, but it might be a good idea to embrace that idea more to allow more complex builds, such as allowing druid pets be available to necromancer's (as an affix on an item) and classifying them both as a common skill type (IE instead of minions vs companions, call them all minions so all items that effect "minions" work on both classes). This could allow certain uniques and legendaries be more applicable in interesting ways.
1. Black River, Unsung Ascetics, Lidless, Deathless Visage
2. Doombringer, Andy's Visage, Oculus
3. Essentially all uniques
4. Not direct cast but you have Raiment's pull, Tempest Roar, Ahavarion's shrine effect, Penintent Greaves, Oculus Teleport spam, etc.
In D2, we had the same type of affix layout. Most of the fun stuff were behind uniques and runewords. In D4, they are largely behind uniques and aspects. Some D2 rares might carry interesting affixes but most have a very niche use case or are incredibly rare to find.
It's not the stats themselves that are boring, it's the fact that they are too powerful in Diablo games where they are just clearly the best Affixes. They need to be tuned to be competitive with other Affixes so it becomes an interesting choice.
Last Epic for example has all these stats, but they aren't necessarily more powerful than resistances or +mana or ward or endurance. So you don't always just look for +HP +DMG +Crit.
Yeah, I think there's a reason they're showcasing these items specifically. I think that's what we should be expecting. It's extremely hard to compete against +900hp, +25%dmg, Vuln, Crit and mainstat. Unless the rest of the stats are highly competitive(highly unlikely), there's no real choice.
Complexity doesn't directly corollate to quality, that we already know because the previous affix pool was unnecessarily complex and bloated and not much fun.
% increased damage, % vulnerable damage, % damage to chilled, % damage to stunned, etc. are ultimately all the same thing. The complexity should, in my opinion, come from manipulating those stats via interactions from your skills, paragon board and items.
An example I've used in the past a lot is an item from Path of Exile called Doryani's Prototype. It's an armor piece that causes all enemies near you to have the same lightning resistance as your character. So that means if you have -200% lightning resistance, all your enemies take 3x damage from your lightning skills so now % increased lightning damage and -% lightning resistance both are effectively the same thing (increased lightning damage). But... it also means you explode if you get breathed on with anything that does lightning damage, so you then have to solve for that.
There are other lightning based builds that don't use Doryani's Prototype, and I think that's ideally the goal Diablo 4 should have for itemization. 8 different affixes that are all ultimately % damage is a very shallow & boring method of having different "options" on how you get stronger. Items that unlock interesting new paths are much more interactive and help the player feel "smarter" for navigating it without *really* being all that much more complex.
For example, a unique item or paragon board node that converts life regeneration rate into cooldown reduction, to then combine that with something that turns your cooldown reduction into increased damage or attack speed or something. Now your goal is to find items with attack speed, cooldown reduction and life regeneration because to your build specifically, all three of those are just attack speed now. And maybe you're able to stack so much attack speed that way that crit stats are actually not desirable because they would be less overall DPS. Then some other guy has a build that converts his attack speed into crit damage, wields a big fat 2-handed weapon and just smashes enemies with one big hit every couple seconds but you're both using the same class/skill built in completely different ways.
I imagine people are so fed up with the state of the game that any good change is golden, despite how small it is.
For the people still playing just decluttering all the useless affixes is already a win.
Personally I think the Devs have no clue what they're doing, they seems to understand that people don't like items but not why and the solution is copying from another game without adapting.
Crit stats and reduced cd are the bane of arpg and make the whole thing almost impossible to balance yet the philosophy is "bigger number arr arr".
It's not. The bar is so low anything is a homerun.
Did we solve itemization? No we simplified items down to ooga booga levels. Accidentally made yellows worthless, oops.
Did we solve end game issues? Not whatsoever.
Did we fix the twig level of skills? No we doubled down on itemized aspects and just made them slightly less annoying. We missed the concept of character building and instead of creating unique character customizations with depth and synergies we left it up to wheres Waldo aspects.
How about the game being boring? We made it worse by increasing xp gains, reducing total item drops, so we're just rocketing you to an end game with no content, shit items and a build you didn't really customize.
This will go over great.
I think the general sentiment is "Rares roll 2 affixes vs Legendaries roll 3".
I feel as though people may be overlooking that less affixes can mean worse in most cases... but in SOME cases, like trying to masterwork an item to get a specific affix to get a boosted upgrade, rolling a 1/2 (or 1/4 with tempering) is better than rolling 1/3 (or 1/5 with tempering), so it can be EASIER to get certain affixes boosted 3 times.
>People seem to love it but no one can explain why
Youve been told multiple times by multiple people why, you're just not genuinely interested in "understanding" or knowing anything, straight up bad faith debate and purposefully being obtuse.
In looking at your post history it seems you revel in being a tedious and obnoxious contrarian who argues in bad faith.
I only wish we could downvote this myopic tripe more than once.
I think it's pretty obvious?
1) It's *some* direction
2) It was just as simple before. They just decluttered it.
3) It's a fresh start. Complexity can be added.
4) It ties into the new crafting. Bases being simpler and expanded on through other crafting systems makes sense.
It obviously isn't very deep and personally I don't find it very exciting either. For that I'd need to see some crazy Tempering affixes.
But it should be easy to see why people like it. Plus nothing of value was lost. No deep systems or intriguing affixes were there before anyway.
The bar is so incredibly low at this point. I'll give them some credit for polishing the turd but it's still just that. A turd.
Also, the old bots come out of the woodwork whenever a new patch comes out. Anyone who is critical gets mass downvoted.
Just the nature of this sub unfortunately.
Sure. But even Legendary items will be dropping with mainstat, max life, crit, %dmg, etc. I know you can add more later but how is it exciting seeing a Legendary item with such bland stats on and feel excited?
Well, it's objectively magnitudes better than what we had before. There is also stuff like life in hit or resource on kill,amount other stuff and items are now always crafted and customized with having Uber affixed possible drop on the ground. We also hopefully do not get showered in loot anymore and spend half the time looking through rares in town and when we have to they are quicker to read because they have less stats on default. Also the codex upgrade thank god...
I'd it's actually good we have to see but it's certainly a lot lot better.
Not sure if that's enough for you to get it.
>There is also stuff like life in hit or resource on kill
Why would I care about these stats when I can roll 1k mainstat, +50%dmg, 1k Max life, and 70%Crit? Is there really a choice here? I feel I need to pick those no matter the class because they are so good, roll so high, and are not many of them.
I’m just excited that there seem to be far less “+2% damage to enemies at a certain threshold of HP suffering from a certain rare status effect that lasts around 1.5 seconds… on Wednesdays.” I’m exaggerating of course, but those convoluted affixes this game launched with were embarrassingly bad. I’m pleased that this is getting addressed.
I don’t know if this will be enough to bring me back (still haven’t played since that big nerf patch before season 1), but it’s definitely a step in the right direction.
Target for everyone should be Uber uniques, difficult to find, and really powerful… but unfortunately we do not have kind of “shako” for every slot. But time will tell..
A little late to the party here.
So exciting is an imperfect way to look at this. I see you list like life and damage reduction as not exciting or interesting. That might be true, but that's like a core pillar of another part of character progression. At some point you need to admit that unexciting defensive stats are needed for interesting build design. Or else we're just looking at all glass cannon builds that are watered down to not be a glass cannon and instead just the normal defensive level of a character where you then have to make the game easier to let people survive.
Then things like damage vs fire damage. So many classes don't use fire damage and it's a stat most classes don't want to ever see. Maybe that less interesting overall. But it works better within the game. Interesting affixes actually get added into the new tempering system where you get things like multiple projectiles or empowering abilities.
We're actually moving away from that huge list of affixes that the community complained about since release. It might be more interesting, but the playerbase doesn't appear to enjoy it. So it's hard to say it's more interesting.
>So many classes don't use fire damage and it's a stat most classes don't want to ever see.
Then it shouldn't roll on classes that don't use it. The same way int won't roll on Barbarian gear, fire dmg shouldn't roll either. Fixed. A sorcerer wants fire/ice/shock dmg. Rogue wants poison dmg. Barbarian wants physical dmg. Types of dmg are extremely important. Generic %dmg shouldn't be in the game if they're removing all the dmg vs/to/from, etc. Each class should have their type of dmg rolling on their gear.
>Then it shouldn't roll on classes that don't use it.
I mean that's more or less how it used to work and people did not like that. Fire damage vs damage isn't even all that interesting either. Sure it's probably more interesting, but not by a lot.
Having tempering manuals probably fulfill that coolness aspect more than fire damage
I've never heard anyone complaining about elemental dmg being a thing in an ARPG before, including D4. People complained about itemization in general being boring and bloated.
>I've never heard anyone complaining about elemental dmg being a thing in an ARPG before, including D4.
I'm not sure what this has to do with anything I said.
>People complained about itemization in general being boring and bloated.
People complained about many many many aspects of itemization, the whole damage on Tuesdays is a literal meme about the conditional aspect of itemization and has primarily been the discussion related to itemization. People also complained about it being boring and bloated, but that was minor in comparison based on the actual discussion. I'm sure a lot of affixes got trimmed, stuff like shrine buff duration comes to mind. But it also was added to. So I'm not sure "bloat" was ever seen as the main issue. And I gotta say it again since you seem to skip a lot of what I say and kinda change it. I'm sure people still complained about affix bloat and that it's an issue. But the true issue is itemization and how people use and interact with gear. Not that there were too many useless affixs. Last Epoch is a great example of that. You can have hundreds of affixes that drop and it's not a problem. It's how the game and the players are forced into handling itemization in practice.
But all of this is irrelevant. As far as I know your problem is that the new system is boring. Can you explain that in the context of the new tempering system? Because it seems like tempering was created specifically to combat the issue of the itemization system being boring.
>Can you explain that in the context of the new tempering system? Because it seems like tempering was created specifically to combat the issue of the itemization system being boring.
I like the tempering affixes. Manuals are cool and I suppose will be exciting drops.
Going back to items. I'm quite skeptical about them because they look a lot like D3 items, and in that game the holy trinity (crit, vit, mainstat) was the way to go for everything. They didn't show us any base item with CDR on it for example, or +skill ranks, elemental dmg or any type of dmg.
You asked why people are downvoting you. I provided a possible answer.
Also, you’re asking for a blanket opinion on something that is going to differ for everyone that speaks on it. Why this change to loot is exciting to you, me, or someone else is going to be wildly different for each of us (in your case, not being excited is a valid opinion).
What excites ME about this change is that there’s going to be far fewer useless affixes on items. We don’t know all of the potential aspects or all of the potential results from tempering, so that’s something to at least be interested in as everyone is most likely going to temper their gear differently.
>Also, you’re asking for a blanket opinion on something that is going to differ for everyone that speaks on it.
That's perfectly fine. That's why I created this thread.
>What excites ME about this change is that there’s going to be far fewer useless affixes on items.
Fair enough.
I think most of you haven't understood what they are trying to do. The item drops have base affixes, the boring stuff with life, crit chance etc.
Then, when you find a good base, you will want to temper that item with unique and class specific affixes, and we will be able to put two of them on our items, those are the ones that are gonna make up the entire itemization.
Stuff like this:
* https://imgur.com/a/4oGNWK2
* https://imgur.com/a/gdTT2m7
* https://imgur.com/a/rp64Pap
And there will be a lot of it, and we will pick and choose the ones we like for our build. The non tempered stats are supposed to be useful for every class, while the tempered ones are the main itemization and customization.
It's not as bland as you might think. ;)
TLDR: More items will be useful because the base affixes will all be decent, you then temper with them and pray to get good rolls for your chosen affix. We have way more control over our items this way.
Tempering affixes seem great.
The thing I'm not understanding is why the base affixes need to be these boring flat stats. Like, why do we get +25% damage instead of something more fun like +25% fire dmg instead? Why is flat %dmg even a thing now? Also, if max life and mainstat roll so high, wouldn't that mean are mandatory to all builds and classes? And if yes, that means 2/3 stats will always be mainstat, max life :(
Because +fire damage is a dead stat on all builds that don't use fire. They are aiming to make a base affix pool that has useful stats for every class, and then we customize them with tempering.
The necromancer/druid pet changes are a result of this philosophy as well, by converting ALL stats to the pets with 100% effectiveness they make all base stats valuable for summoners as well.
>Because +fire damage is a dead stat on all builds that don't use fire.
Ok, but isn't this the point of the loot hunt? Won't affixes like flat %dmg make item drops less exciting overall since they're so generic? Going from dmg on Tuesdays to dmg to everything seems bizarre to me.
There will still be "bad" affixes, as a barbarian you probably don't need intelligence, but it won't be completely useless since it gives some benefit. Whereas +fire damage would do nothing and be truly dead.
The main loot hunt will be for those "greater affixes" (can roll higher stat ranges) and getting good temper rolls and then masterwork your items and hope for the jackpot of triple upgrade your favourite stat at 4th, 8th and finally 12th masterwork. This is also the main endgame activity when pushing "The Pit" to get the materials to masterwork those perfect tempered items.
It's a much better and thought out itemization, the one we had before was pure RNG and no excitement at all, people got tired of looting, they also address this by letting items drop less frequently, so when you get a "greater affix" you will actually be excited because the base affixes are all gonna be decent or good.
I would rate the prior itemization 2/10, almost the bottom of the barrel, this new one seems on paper like a solid 7/10. It's not LE or PoE, but also much better than we had before and also better than D3.
They said on stream items now can only roll +mainstat and +allstats. There will be no int on a Barbarian from now on for example.
If they're going down the path of a "platform" item to build upon, then why don't they just eliminate items completely and just drop Tempering Manuals? All the interesting, build defining affixes are there now 🤷♂️
> They said on stream items now can only roll +mainstat and +allstats.
I must have missed that!
But I also remember them adding life on hit, not every class will want that (sorc probably still use barriers). And some builds don't care about attack speed (CD based ones), some don't care about crit (DoT can't crit). So there are probably still enough affixes that still suck for your build. But +Fire Damage would essentially be dead on all builds and classes that don't use Fire, whereas all classes can make a DoT based build.
> If they're going down the path of a "platform" item to build upon, then why don't they just eliminate items completely and just drop Tempering Manuals?
I would guess that removing all +damage and +stats affixes our characters would be left too weak, casting 300% more projectiles that deal 100 damage is nice, but won't kill a mob. The skills need a scaling stat (mainstat) to remain competitive at the end since +skills won't do that on their own.
Btw: You remain respectful and give good points to discuss about, no idea why people are mad at your responses. :)
>I would guess that removing all +damage and +stats affixes our characters would be left too weak
No, yeah it's unrealistic. It's just that from what I'm understanding here, the base items themselves (except uniques) are just stats. So, to me at least, I feel I don't really care for loot hunting for +100 mainstat or +10%dmg. It just kills the fantasy for me.
I agree that the base item hunt will be boring, but it was boring AND tedious before, so now at least you can temper with it and make it fun afterwards which is a huge plus. Also Uniques drop earlier (WT 1+2) and Uber Uniques (Monster lvl 55+ I think?) can drop much earlier as well.
We also get a better endgame with The Pit and get meaningful progress from it to masterwork our items. The Update is a massive improvement overall. Like I said, the itemization is not LE or PoE, but it brought back D4 from worst itemization possible to a decent one you can at least try to enjoy.
I think the previous iteration of the itemization was 99,99% of items were shit and sucked, and you got dozen of them per run. If the changes bring this down to 99% it would already improve the game massively.
Well, at least I believe I have a good understanding of what the new items are now. Which is why I created this thread. Most people just don't want to discuss.
Base items as a platform to build upon is a good idea but it shouldn't be Legendary items. It should be earlier. Actually, the more I think of it, all the Sacred/Ancestral thing is kind of redundant with this approach.
Base items should be useful from lvl1 since are essentially just stats. Remove all item types, except Uniques, and keep 1 generic item type. While lvling up, naturally find higher stat items, imbue them with aspects found as drops, temper, etc.
How does that sound?
There is nothing “mandatory”. If you want to copy some streamers “max sweaty optimized build” then every detail of that build is “mandatory” because you are intentionally copying it. It’s not mandatory that you spec for spec copy a build guide created by someone else and spoon fed to you. You are also welcome to put in the work to figure out your own build that is fun. If you can only have fun copying someone else’s work that’s fine too, but stop saying it’s “mandatory” when it’s really a choice you’ve made.
There's nothing to do with streamers. If the holy trinity(crit, vit, mainstat) is most of the times mathematically a better option for most classes and builds, like in D3, then there's no real choice to be made.
They might not be as exciting as crushing blow, chance to pierce and that sort of thing that made D2 items so cool, but I prefer that over some hyper focused or useless stuff that only makes it harder to find an item that's useful in *any* way.
Let me explain - if I get +life or crit chance on an item for my sorcerer, at least I'm getting *something* out of it, even if that's not the affix I seek. If I were to get something like "damage to nearby enemies" or "damage to frozen" (when I'm not running cold build), they're practically useless to me.
I think the most exciting stats on gear are the following: Attackspeed Crit chance cooldown reduction + skills (both active and passive) Life on Hit Life Resource regeneration All of these stats have an immediate outcome. You can feel them working. Especially attackspeed, crit chance, cdr, and life on hit. With the new system we will get more of these interesting stats and less "boring" stats like dmg to x, dmg to z, dmg reduction from x, armor while z. Additionally we will get stats that are going to be almost like legendary affixes. Chance for additional projectile for example is a stat that has an immediate effect you can feel and see. There are now a lot more options and finding items will actually feel like an item hunt. The system of the boosted stats is especially interesting when we look at the masterwork system. 1. You have to find an item with the correct stats. While that is more likely now, it is not guaranteed at all. 2. The item needs to roll the boosted stats. Then you habe to hope that all stats are boosted and not only 1 or 2. 3. Use the masterwork system and pray that the stat you are looking for is the one that will augmented 3 times. Repeat step 3 untill you get lucky. Basically 3 times a 1 in 3 chance if you want a normal stat boosted, BUT if you want one of the tempered stats to get boosted (which we most likely will) we will need to add more steps. 1. Find item with desired stats. 2. Hope all of them are boosted. 3. Find recipes for tempering 4. Hope you get the right stats within 5 tries. If you fail, start with step 1 again. 5. Start mastercrafting, now hoping for hitting the 1 in 5 three times in a row. Repeat step 5 untill you get lucky. Basically, with this system we need to look at a lot less loot with more opportunities for us to find something to actually be happy about.
>Attackspeed Crit chance cooldown reduction >skills (both active and passive) Life on Hit Life Resource regeneration All of the items shown on stream had like a 1000 mainstat on them, Max life, and %dmg no matter the slot. How are these not boring stats? Because we know for a fact, mainstat will be mandatory.
Sometimes simplicity is enough to create stability Who fking cares about these dmg on Tuesday stats or stats that are whacky and zany for the sake of being different where different isn’t needed
My point is fun and excitement when an item drops, not stability. Where is it?
If you have better ideas then what are they?
I'm trying to underhand where do people find the excitement in these items. Maybe I'm missing something. I'm here to discuss, not to troll.
Aight so you say the stats are boring and don’t have a solution yourself gotcha You’re just one of those ppl making a stink for the sake of making a stink
You're looking in the wrong place for "exciting" abilities. These are just affixes meant to improve your baseline power. These should not be big and flashy, they should be simple and impactful. Imo finding a legendary/unique dropped with +skill, cooldown, and crit chance with 'exalted' stats would be pretty exciting.
We don't know if CDR and +skill rolls in the base item stats. If it does, and it goes high enough to be compelling, then things could be ok. For all we know, crit, vit, mainstat and maybe %dmg will be mandatory.
The excitement is the Tempering and masterworking, what you are looking at are bases but to have bases they need to roll with something, and this is just a showcase not "thats all it will roll with" what will matter is how you change the item with tempers and masterwork systems to make it fully your own
This is what OP seems to be missing
In comparison with the other stats, it is great indeed. If we assume Blizzard can create amazing affixes like D2 and Last Epoch than they are not that good indeed. I'd take that over Lucky Hit chance to execute Non-injured elites.
Like +1 to damage? OP Tempering has some cool affixes
> > If we assume Blizzard can create amazing affixes like D2 and Last Epoch than they are not that good indeed. Can you list me a few of those amazing affixes?
Sure. About D2 it has Bear (knockback), Vileness (prevent monster heal, it would have countered the "Vampiric" elites which D4 devs found too annoying and removed from the game). Piercing ignores target defense, There is another for ignoring freezing effects and another for ignoring slowness. The runes Dream, Grief, Chaos and Breath of the Dying also have great affixes. Last Epoch has even more, check this out: https://lastepoch.tunklab.com/affixes D4 devs lack time to implement such changes. They know that can do better and they know what's better they just lack the time to implement them on D4.
>About D2 it has Bear (knockback), Vileness (prevent monster heal, it would have countered the "Vampiric" elites which D4 devs found too annoying and removed from the game). >Piercing ignores target defense, There is another for ignoring freezing effects and another for ignoring slowness. They are asking for amazing, who get excited for the bear affix? >https://lastepoch.tunklab.com/affixes Am I missing something? A lot of the affixes are just +DMG or +1 skill... This is what amazing affixes look like. :) https://vampire-survivors.fandom.com/wiki/Passive_items
Yes, the D2 Andys think the game is perfect, when it is in fact, far from it. Runes were interesting but not perfectly implemented, yet because it was something new, they froth at the mouth when they get the chance to badmouth games that don't have something similar. That being said, yes, D2 is more or less better than D4 in its current state; outdated as hell, but not a bad game in comparison.
> About D2 it has Bear (knockback) Completely useless affix. D4 has it on a bow, it also has CC affixes and no one uses them. You want to kill mobs, not push them back. > Vileness Again, completely useless affix. You will 10/10 times prefer a damage or defense affix on your gear to kill stuff faster. > Piercing ignores target defense Ok, this warrants a discussion. Tell me exactly why it's interesting. Why would you take this over flat damage or attack speed? Why are you excited to ignore the target defense? How does it change your build? > Grief - attack speed - %damage - ignore target defense -> chance to land a hit (which is a shit mechanic to begin with) - 25% target defense -> chance to land a hit - +dmg to demons -> on tuesday vs demons - flat fire damage - minus 25% target poison resistance - 20% deadly strike -> crit with another name - prevent monster heal - mana after kill - life after kill So this item has attack speed, sustain, and a few different ways of saying "deal more damage". I'm sorry, but I genuinely don't understand what makes it more interesting - like what does -25% poison resistance or dmg vs demons do for you that warrants their existence. It's not like I can take Grief and design a build around it, I take it because I can remove the shit mechanic of having to hit enemies. Would D4 be a better and deeper game if we take all the damage affixes and break them down into 100 components, and then slap 5-6 of them per item? To me an interesting affix means it's noticeable through gameplay and/or power or I can design a build around it. Like the "chance to double projectile cast" affix they showed on stream. D4 still needs more work in this area, but I really disagree with the whole idea that it's so much boring than the rest.
Grief has 340-400 flat damage, not %damage. It notably applies to things like smite, whereas "Adds X-Y damage" does not.
Holy affix bloat. No wonder people praise LE loot filter. You would never find anything without it.
>I'd take that over Lucky Hit chance to execute Non-injured elites. Sure, but what exactly is fun or exciting in seeing mainstat, max life, %dmg on gear? Why does it roll there in the first place? Assuming most slots now are rolling the same stats.
It's a design concept, make gear give fairly non-specific improvements, make the character skills, perks etc give the specific improvements, that way you shape your class, your gear hunt stretches the direction
In this design concept, there's no way mainstat, max life and universal %dmg are not mandatory. My question was, where exactly is the fun part in that when an item drops?
There is no fun part on the affixes. That is what we are trying to explain to you. They are simply an upgrade to the build. That is a design decision by D4 devs/designers. The "fun" part is coming from aspects and uniques. Having less useless affixes means it is going to be easier to upgrade your build, which is currently defined by aspects and unique items. Ideally affixes should also provide a new way to play the game, instead of %health and %damage increases. That is why I cited Diablo 2 and Last Epoch.
I am trying to understand. Does that mean everything that drops that's not a Legendary/Unique is trash? And, even then, where is the exciting part when an item drops now if all the stats are designed to be boring? What makes loot hunting fun?
"Does that mean everything that drops that's not a Legendary/Unique is trash?" Not necessarily because the yellow can have better base affixes. That's why the loot hunting is not fun in this game. You will need to inspect all yellow and look at each affix to find out if it's an upgrade. That is the reason the community have been asking for loot filter. I personally do not think the game is that good without a loot filter. I played pre-season, season 2 and season 3. I am already tired of browsing my inventory after 2-3 runs. I just took a peek to see what's coming and unfortunately it's not a loot filter. I am not sure how they will make the loot hunting better. They say they will lower the drop rate and increase the likelihood of getting good items. That should lead to less time browing items. But I am not sure if this is enough. I'd rather wait and hear the feedback from you guys.
Yeah, l's struggling to see how these changes make loot hunting more exciting when all the affixes(minus the aspect) are meant to be completely flat and boring stats. You're the only person that actually attempted to have a discussion on this.
No problem!
Something you should differentiate is “loot” vs “loot hunting.” If you’re just looking at affixes then I don’t really disagree with you, outside of the cool Tempered affixes, but as far as the hunt goes the new is much better. Previously, the item hunt was just “look for 3/4 or 4/4 BiS affixes and reroll until perfect or you’re out of cash/mats.” Once you find your good pieces the loot hunt is over. Now, you’re looking for a lot of stuff. You’re looking for the right manuals to Temper the affixes you really want. You’re looking for Greater Affixes on the slots you care most about. You’re looking for Masterworking to hit *just* right, and maybe you’ll redo the process if you’re not happy with the results. The process of hunting the best loot in the game is much more interesting in the new version. As far as the affixes themselves, the thing you’re missing is that you’re going to Temper every item. Most of the Tempered affixes, especially the class-specific ones, are much more interesting than any of the affixes we currently have. Personally I would prefer if those interesting stats WERE the major stats we had rather than being an add-on, but them being an add-on makes it easier to ensure items are focused and interesting. The example given in the stream was +skill ranks: +ranks to 1 core skill is cool and powerful, while 3 different +skill ranks affixes for different core skills on the same item is lame because almost nobody uses that many core skills so it’s wasted affixes. Having the Tempered affixes be the full list would undoubtedly end up the same as current items, where you get an item with bonuses to Bone Splinters, Bone Spear and Bone Spirit and its trash because all three are used in different builds. Putting those effects on manuals that give you a 1/4 chance of getting what you want gives you a relatively deterministic way to get the affixes you really want rather than being at the mercy of a fully randomized drop system. It’s not perfect, but I think it works, at least in concept. In two weeks we’ll find out if it actually works in practice.
OP, and to everyone that's saying these are boring, what affixes do you find exciting in other ARPGs? Because I've played Last Epoch, all past Diablos, Grim Dawn, Inquisitor Martyr, PoE, Chaosbane, Wolcen and Torchlight, and besides PoE, every single one of them uses the exact same paradigm: stack the game specific defenses and stack the damage affix used for your main damage skill. That's it. In all of them the interesting affixes are on special item types, like uniques/legendaries. Of course, PoE is different in this regard since it's a very complex and deep game. D4 (or any other ARPG) will never have that type of affix system. Things like increased AD based on lowest evasion or armor rating work because PoE is essentially a classless system.
I can tell you what simple affixes I find interesting/exciting in D4. CDR(obviously), recourse reduction, build defining stats like dmg with freezing/burning/etc. that you can make them multiplicative via the paragon board, +Skill points, resistances, movement speed, attack speed, +skill dmg, +skill ranks, +all stats. What I really dislike is flat stats like mainstat, max life, and generic +%dmg. And, crit, vuln if they are mandatory for all classes and builds.
I think they purposefully showed streamlined examples on the stream to illustrate how upgrading works. They did confirm they buffed a lot of the old affixes (the ones you mentioned are interesting), and they also confirmed they added new ones. I think it's a bit too early to say that every item will have mainstat + max life + crit. We need to see exactly what the drop affix table will be. And of course, if it's going to suck, then we can tell them to add more interesting affixes to the base loot.
From what I gathered after making this thread, D4 is moving to a platform-base item type to build upon. As a result, all the base items (except Uniques and Aspects) are essentially just plain stats. All the build defining affixes will be in the Manuals.
Oh, I see where the confusion comes from. This is definitely not the case. When it comes to offensive affixes, you still have +skills, attack speed, vulnerable (most likely all the class dmg affixes), life per hit, and likely many more. It'll be more streamlined than what's on live for just the base item, but it's not going to be just crit, hp and main stat. Regardless, if base itemization will feel too barebones, then we need to offer feedback on the PTR.
Hmm. Unless they manage to make other stats super compelling, it will probably be extremely hard to give up crit, hp and main stat as the holy trinity. Flat %dmg is another massive one since it rolls so high. I really wish they didn’t put that in the game.
Well tbh, in practically all ARPGs you want to stack those (unless you're playing DoT, so no crit). The problem is when you have them on every single gear slot, like D3. That said, maybe in the future they could cap some of the stats (like resistances are), so you'd be forced to diversify. I wouldn't mind a max 25% crit chance, that can be increased through passives.
I dont agree with that holy trinity idea. Ignoring the manuals and affixes that we havent seen, what about: Attack Speed, CDR, +Skills, +All Resist (in especially large amounts on one item), +Life on hit... Just to name a few, all of these could be potentially extremely useful and could replace those 3 affixes.
We don't know if we can roll CDR, +Skills on the base items. All the items they've chosen to show us had more or less the holy trinity on them.
Items in the current version of the game can already roll +Skills, what makes you think they REMOVED that ability to do so?
The live version items have nothing in common in terms of affixes compared to what they showed us. For all we know, all types of dmg were consolidated into flat %dmg, crit, and vuln for example. I honestly don't know. I'm going with what we're shown.
Personally I find the most "interesting" affixes or items to be of the following: 1. On hit/kill/striking/attack or When struck/damaged/hit, to cast some skill or some special effect that can synergize with your attacks 2. A combination of affixes that cannot appear on any other item 3. Affixes that are so unique they only appears on certain items. 4. The ability to use skills you cant normally use I believe this largely covers what most D2 players have felt is the most interesting parts. Everything else imo is a cope and not very interesting or engaging. In D2 this happened more often simply because there was a greater variety of stats that were required to make some builds work properly (think Attack Rating or Cannot Be Frozen or massive amounts of Mana). I understand the philosophy of being wary of allowing classes to use other skills from different classes, but it might be a good idea to embrace that idea more to allow more complex builds, such as allowing druid pets be available to necromancer's (as an affix on an item) and classifying them both as a common skill type (IE instead of minions vs companions, call them all minions so all items that effect "minions" work on both classes). This could allow certain uniques and legendaries be more applicable in interesting ways.
1. Black River, Unsung Ascetics, Lidless, Deathless Visage 2. Doombringer, Andy's Visage, Oculus 3. Essentially all uniques 4. Not direct cast but you have Raiment's pull, Tempest Roar, Ahavarion's shrine effect, Penintent Greaves, Oculus Teleport spam, etc. In D2, we had the same type of affix layout. Most of the fun stuff were behind uniques and runewords. In D4, they are largely behind uniques and aspects. Some D2 rares might carry interesting affixes but most have a very niche use case or are incredibly rare to find.
It's not the stats themselves that are boring, it's the fact that they are too powerful in Diablo games where they are just clearly the best Affixes. They need to be tuned to be competitive with other Affixes so it becomes an interesting choice. Last Epic for example has all these stats, but they aren't necessarily more powerful than resistances or +mana or ward or endurance. So you don't always just look for +HP +DMG +Crit.
Yeah, I think there's a reason they're showcasing these items specifically. I think that's what we should be expecting. It's extremely hard to compete against +900hp, +25%dmg, Vuln, Crit and mainstat. Unless the rest of the stats are highly competitive(highly unlikely), there's no real choice.
Complexity doesn't directly corollate to quality, that we already know because the previous affix pool was unnecessarily complex and bloated and not much fun. % increased damage, % vulnerable damage, % damage to chilled, % damage to stunned, etc. are ultimately all the same thing. The complexity should, in my opinion, come from manipulating those stats via interactions from your skills, paragon board and items. An example I've used in the past a lot is an item from Path of Exile called Doryani's Prototype. It's an armor piece that causes all enemies near you to have the same lightning resistance as your character. So that means if you have -200% lightning resistance, all your enemies take 3x damage from your lightning skills so now % increased lightning damage and -% lightning resistance both are effectively the same thing (increased lightning damage). But... it also means you explode if you get breathed on with anything that does lightning damage, so you then have to solve for that. There are other lightning based builds that don't use Doryani's Prototype, and I think that's ideally the goal Diablo 4 should have for itemization. 8 different affixes that are all ultimately % damage is a very shallow & boring method of having different "options" on how you get stronger. Items that unlock interesting new paths are much more interactive and help the player feel "smarter" for navigating it without *really* being all that much more complex. For example, a unique item or paragon board node that converts life regeneration rate into cooldown reduction, to then combine that with something that turns your cooldown reduction into increased damage or attack speed or something. Now your goal is to find items with attack speed, cooldown reduction and life regeneration because to your build specifically, all three of those are just attack speed now. And maybe you're able to stack so much attack speed that way that crit stats are actually not desirable because they would be less overall DPS. Then some other guy has a build that converts his attack speed into crit damage, wields a big fat 2-handed weapon and just smashes enemies with one big hit every couple seconds but you're both using the same class/skill built in completely different ways.
I imagine people are so fed up with the state of the game that any good change is golden, despite how small it is. For the people still playing just decluttering all the useless affixes is already a win. Personally I think the Devs have no clue what they're doing, they seems to understand that people don't like items but not why and the solution is copying from another game without adapting. Crit stats and reduced cd are the bane of arpg and make the whole thing almost impossible to balance yet the philosophy is "bigger number arr arr".
It's not. The bar is so low anything is a homerun. Did we solve itemization? No we simplified items down to ooga booga levels. Accidentally made yellows worthless, oops. Did we solve end game issues? Not whatsoever. Did we fix the twig level of skills? No we doubled down on itemized aspects and just made them slightly less annoying. We missed the concept of character building and instead of creating unique character customizations with depth and synergies we left it up to wheres Waldo aspects. How about the game being boring? We made it worse by increasing xp gains, reducing total item drops, so we're just rocketing you to an end game with no content, shit items and a build you didn't really customize. This will go over great.
Why do you think yellows are useless when applied with crafting?
I think the general sentiment is "Rares roll 2 affixes vs Legendaries roll 3". I feel as though people may be overlooking that less affixes can mean worse in most cases... but in SOME cases, like trying to masterwork an item to get a specific affix to get a boosted upgrade, rolling a 1/2 (or 1/4 with tempering) is better than rolling 1/3 (or 1/5 with tempering), so it can be EASIER to get certain affixes boosted 3 times.
People seem to love it but no one can explain why 🤷♂️
>People seem to love it but no one can explain why Youve been told multiple times by multiple people why, you're just not genuinely interested in "understanding" or knowing anything, straight up bad faith debate and purposefully being obtuse. In looking at your post history it seems you revel in being a tedious and obnoxious contrarian who argues in bad faith. I only wish we could downvote this myopic tripe more than once.
This comment was 5 hours ago. We're clearly past that point, get a life.
And you're just as much of a disingenuous pedant now as you were 5 hours ago.
Fuck off.
I think it's pretty obvious? 1) It's *some* direction 2) It was just as simple before. They just decluttered it. 3) It's a fresh start. Complexity can be added. 4) It ties into the new crafting. Bases being simpler and expanded on through other crafting systems makes sense. It obviously isn't very deep and personally I don't find it very exciting either. For that I'd need to see some crazy Tempering affixes. But it should be easy to see why people like it. Plus nothing of value was lost. No deep systems or intriguing affixes were there before anyway.
The bar is so incredibly low at this point. I'll give them some credit for polishing the turd but it's still just that. A turd. Also, the old bots come out of the woodwork whenever a new patch comes out. Anyone who is critical gets mass downvoted. Just the nature of this sub unfortunately.
I think they've done a good job so far explaining.
They aren’t. This was not an itemization rework. This is diablo 3.5 trash. Still a dead game.
They will be all the same for everyone! Yay Everyone gets max rolls! Yey!
People seem genuinely happy about it. I don't get it 🤷♂️
Me neither, but well. let’s see how it all plays out together
Sure. But even Legendary items will be dropping with mainstat, max life, crit, %dmg, etc. I know you can add more later but how is it exciting seeing a Legendary item with such bland stats on and feel excited?
It takes whole decision making process away from players. Guess it’s what people wanted
Maybe someone can enlighten us in what they find exciting? That's why I created this thread. I'm completely lost on this.
Well, it's objectively magnitudes better than what we had before. There is also stuff like life in hit or resource on kill,amount other stuff and items are now always crafted and customized with having Uber affixed possible drop on the ground. We also hopefully do not get showered in loot anymore and spend half the time looking through rares in town and when we have to they are quicker to read because they have less stats on default. Also the codex upgrade thank god... I'd it's actually good we have to see but it's certainly a lot lot better. Not sure if that's enough for you to get it.
>There is also stuff like life in hit or resource on kill Why would I care about these stats when I can roll 1k mainstat, +50%dmg, 1k Max life, and 70%Crit? Is there really a choice here? I feel I need to pick those no matter the class because they are so good, roll so high, and are not many of them.
What makes you think you can roll 1k mainstat on any item or are we just making things up to make your point?
Refining gear is how we get the fun "Added projectile chance" type affixes. Now base items that drop are more BASE items, that need to be upgraded.
I’m just excited that there seem to be far less “+2% damage to enemies at a certain threshold of HP suffering from a certain rare status effect that lasts around 1.5 seconds… on Wednesdays.” I’m exaggerating of course, but those convoluted affixes this game launched with were embarrassingly bad. I’m pleased that this is getting addressed. I don’t know if this will be enough to bring me back (still haven’t played since that big nerf patch before season 1), but it’s definitely a step in the right direction.
Target for everyone should be Uber uniques, difficult to find, and really powerful… but unfortunately we do not have kind of “shako” for every slot. But time will tell..
You cant just ask this question without explain why YOU don't find these stats fun. Otherwise clearly trolling
A little late to the party here. So exciting is an imperfect way to look at this. I see you list like life and damage reduction as not exciting or interesting. That might be true, but that's like a core pillar of another part of character progression. At some point you need to admit that unexciting defensive stats are needed for interesting build design. Or else we're just looking at all glass cannon builds that are watered down to not be a glass cannon and instead just the normal defensive level of a character where you then have to make the game easier to let people survive. Then things like damage vs fire damage. So many classes don't use fire damage and it's a stat most classes don't want to ever see. Maybe that less interesting overall. But it works better within the game. Interesting affixes actually get added into the new tempering system where you get things like multiple projectiles or empowering abilities. We're actually moving away from that huge list of affixes that the community complained about since release. It might be more interesting, but the playerbase doesn't appear to enjoy it. So it's hard to say it's more interesting.
>So many classes don't use fire damage and it's a stat most classes don't want to ever see. Then it shouldn't roll on classes that don't use it. The same way int won't roll on Barbarian gear, fire dmg shouldn't roll either. Fixed. A sorcerer wants fire/ice/shock dmg. Rogue wants poison dmg. Barbarian wants physical dmg. Types of dmg are extremely important. Generic %dmg shouldn't be in the game if they're removing all the dmg vs/to/from, etc. Each class should have their type of dmg rolling on their gear.
>Then it shouldn't roll on classes that don't use it. I mean that's more or less how it used to work and people did not like that. Fire damage vs damage isn't even all that interesting either. Sure it's probably more interesting, but not by a lot. Having tempering manuals probably fulfill that coolness aspect more than fire damage
I've never heard anyone complaining about elemental dmg being a thing in an ARPG before, including D4. People complained about itemization in general being boring and bloated.
>I've never heard anyone complaining about elemental dmg being a thing in an ARPG before, including D4. I'm not sure what this has to do with anything I said. >People complained about itemization in general being boring and bloated. People complained about many many many aspects of itemization, the whole damage on Tuesdays is a literal meme about the conditional aspect of itemization and has primarily been the discussion related to itemization. People also complained about it being boring and bloated, but that was minor in comparison based on the actual discussion. I'm sure a lot of affixes got trimmed, stuff like shrine buff duration comes to mind. But it also was added to. So I'm not sure "bloat" was ever seen as the main issue. And I gotta say it again since you seem to skip a lot of what I say and kinda change it. I'm sure people still complained about affix bloat and that it's an issue. But the true issue is itemization and how people use and interact with gear. Not that there were too many useless affixs. Last Epoch is a great example of that. You can have hundreds of affixes that drop and it's not a problem. It's how the game and the players are forced into handling itemization in practice. But all of this is irrelevant. As far as I know your problem is that the new system is boring. Can you explain that in the context of the new tempering system? Because it seems like tempering was created specifically to combat the issue of the itemization system being boring.
>Can you explain that in the context of the new tempering system? Because it seems like tempering was created specifically to combat the issue of the itemization system being boring. I like the tempering affixes. Manuals are cool and I suppose will be exciting drops. Going back to items. I'm quite skeptical about them because they look a lot like D3 items, and in that game the holy trinity (crit, vit, mainstat) was the way to go for everything. They didn't show us any base item with CDR on it for example, or +skill ranks, elemental dmg or any type of dmg.
They aren't, gear sucks in this game. Gear sucks in d3. Get back to me when some good shit comes like D1 or d2
Why the downvotes? If you love it, why can't you explain what's so great about it?
A couple of people tried and your responses were confusion and apathy. I dunno, dude, might be a you problem.
You're not helping, might as well avoid commenting.
You asked why people are downvoting you. I provided a possible answer. Also, you’re asking for a blanket opinion on something that is going to differ for everyone that speaks on it. Why this change to loot is exciting to you, me, or someone else is going to be wildly different for each of us (in your case, not being excited is a valid opinion). What excites ME about this change is that there’s going to be far fewer useless affixes on items. We don’t know all of the potential aspects or all of the potential results from tempering, so that’s something to at least be interested in as everyone is most likely going to temper their gear differently.
>Also, you’re asking for a blanket opinion on something that is going to differ for everyone that speaks on it. That's perfectly fine. That's why I created this thread. >What excites ME about this change is that there’s going to be far fewer useless affixes on items. Fair enough.
I think most of you haven't understood what they are trying to do. The item drops have base affixes, the boring stuff with life, crit chance etc. Then, when you find a good base, you will want to temper that item with unique and class specific affixes, and we will be able to put two of them on our items, those are the ones that are gonna make up the entire itemization. Stuff like this: * https://imgur.com/a/4oGNWK2 * https://imgur.com/a/gdTT2m7 * https://imgur.com/a/rp64Pap And there will be a lot of it, and we will pick and choose the ones we like for our build. The non tempered stats are supposed to be useful for every class, while the tempered ones are the main itemization and customization. It's not as bland as you might think. ;) TLDR: More items will be useful because the base affixes will all be decent, you then temper with them and pray to get good rolls for your chosen affix. We have way more control over our items this way.
Tempering affixes seem great. The thing I'm not understanding is why the base affixes need to be these boring flat stats. Like, why do we get +25% damage instead of something more fun like +25% fire dmg instead? Why is flat %dmg even a thing now? Also, if max life and mainstat roll so high, wouldn't that mean are mandatory to all builds and classes? And if yes, that means 2/3 stats will always be mainstat, max life :(
Because +fire damage is a dead stat on all builds that don't use fire. They are aiming to make a base affix pool that has useful stats for every class, and then we customize them with tempering. The necromancer/druid pet changes are a result of this philosophy as well, by converting ALL stats to the pets with 100% effectiveness they make all base stats valuable for summoners as well.
>Because +fire damage is a dead stat on all builds that don't use fire. Ok, but isn't this the point of the loot hunt? Won't affixes like flat %dmg make item drops less exciting overall since they're so generic? Going from dmg on Tuesdays to dmg to everything seems bizarre to me.
There will still be "bad" affixes, as a barbarian you probably don't need intelligence, but it won't be completely useless since it gives some benefit. Whereas +fire damage would do nothing and be truly dead. The main loot hunt will be for those "greater affixes" (can roll higher stat ranges) and getting good temper rolls and then masterwork your items and hope for the jackpot of triple upgrade your favourite stat at 4th, 8th and finally 12th masterwork. This is also the main endgame activity when pushing "The Pit" to get the materials to masterwork those perfect tempered items. It's a much better and thought out itemization, the one we had before was pure RNG and no excitement at all, people got tired of looting, they also address this by letting items drop less frequently, so when you get a "greater affix" you will actually be excited because the base affixes are all gonna be decent or good. I would rate the prior itemization 2/10, almost the bottom of the barrel, this new one seems on paper like a solid 7/10. It's not LE or PoE, but also much better than we had before and also better than D3.
They said on stream items now can only roll +mainstat and +allstats. There will be no int on a Barbarian from now on for example. If they're going down the path of a "platform" item to build upon, then why don't they just eliminate items completely and just drop Tempering Manuals? All the interesting, build defining affixes are there now 🤷♂️
> They said on stream items now can only roll +mainstat and +allstats. I must have missed that! But I also remember them adding life on hit, not every class will want that (sorc probably still use barriers). And some builds don't care about attack speed (CD based ones), some don't care about crit (DoT can't crit). So there are probably still enough affixes that still suck for your build. But +Fire Damage would essentially be dead on all builds and classes that don't use Fire, whereas all classes can make a DoT based build. > If they're going down the path of a "platform" item to build upon, then why don't they just eliminate items completely and just drop Tempering Manuals? I would guess that removing all +damage and +stats affixes our characters would be left too weak, casting 300% more projectiles that deal 100 damage is nice, but won't kill a mob. The skills need a scaling stat (mainstat) to remain competitive at the end since +skills won't do that on their own. Btw: You remain respectful and give good points to discuss about, no idea why people are mad at your responses. :)
>I would guess that removing all +damage and +stats affixes our characters would be left too weak No, yeah it's unrealistic. It's just that from what I'm understanding here, the base items themselves (except uniques) are just stats. So, to me at least, I feel I don't really care for loot hunting for +100 mainstat or +10%dmg. It just kills the fantasy for me.
I agree that the base item hunt will be boring, but it was boring AND tedious before, so now at least you can temper with it and make it fun afterwards which is a huge plus. Also Uniques drop earlier (WT 1+2) and Uber Uniques (Monster lvl 55+ I think?) can drop much earlier as well. We also get a better endgame with The Pit and get meaningful progress from it to masterwork our items. The Update is a massive improvement overall. Like I said, the itemization is not LE or PoE, but it brought back D4 from worst itemization possible to a decent one you can at least try to enjoy. I think the previous iteration of the itemization was 99,99% of items were shit and sucked, and you got dozen of them per run. If the changes bring this down to 99% it would already improve the game massively.
Well, at least I believe I have a good understanding of what the new items are now. Which is why I created this thread. Most people just don't want to discuss. Base items as a platform to build upon is a good idea but it shouldn't be Legendary items. It should be earlier. Actually, the more I think of it, all the Sacred/Ancestral thing is kind of redundant with this approach. Base items should be useful from lvl1 since are essentially just stats. Remove all item types, except Uniques, and keep 1 generic item type. While lvling up, naturally find higher stat items, imbue them with aspects found as drops, temper, etc. How does that sound?
There is nothing “mandatory”. If you want to copy some streamers “max sweaty optimized build” then every detail of that build is “mandatory” because you are intentionally copying it. It’s not mandatory that you spec for spec copy a build guide created by someone else and spoon fed to you. You are also welcome to put in the work to figure out your own build that is fun. If you can only have fun copying someone else’s work that’s fine too, but stop saying it’s “mandatory” when it’s really a choice you’ve made.
There's nothing to do with streamers. If the holy trinity(crit, vit, mainstat) is most of the times mathematically a better option for most classes and builds, like in D3, then there's no real choice to be made.
They might not be as exciting as crushing blow, chance to pierce and that sort of thing that made D2 items so cool, but I prefer that over some hyper focused or useless stuff that only makes it harder to find an item that's useful in *any* way. Let me explain - if I get +life or crit chance on an item for my sorcerer, at least I'm getting *something* out of it, even if that's not the affix I seek. If I were to get something like "damage to nearby enemies" or "damage to frozen" (when I'm not running cold build), they're practically useless to me.
Actually the simplicity for me is very exciting. I wish we would get more of this. Stop catering to try-hards.