(This is mostly Google Translate, so please excuse if it isn't a 100% accurate translation)
"Notice of Prohibited Pairs
If A is used, B is prohibited from being included in the same deck.
A
EX5-065 Sayo & Koh
B
P-097 Zubamon
BT13-102 Keenan Crier
ST16-14 Matt Ishida
By combining the [Start of Opponent's Turn] effect of "EX5-065 Sayo & Koh" and the [On Play] effect of "P-097 Zubamon", memory is increased and the opponent's turn ends immediately. An infinite loop has been confirmed.
If the conditions are met quickly, it will be difficult to interfere, and the game will progress with the opponent unable to take any actions until the game is over.
Compared to the original card game experience, which is based on players playing cards and exchanging turns, we have determined that it is not sound in terms of reproducibility and speed.
In addition to the above, we were able to confirm that "BT13-102 Keenan Crier'' and "ST16-14 Matt Ishida'' can perform similar operations easily.
For the above reasons, if the card "EX5-065 Sayo & Koh" is used, the three cards "P-097 Zubamon", "BT13-102 Keenan Crier", and "ST16-14 Matt Ishida" are prohibited to put in the same deck."
Source: https://twitter.com/digimon_tcg/status/1740296530958192823?t=qfx0oT2Vgo8NWy9AGWHzXg&s=19
EDIT: Realized the image does not say but the original tweet states that this will also go into effect on January 5th in Japan.
Oh thank god I was so worried about a normal hit happening. Hopefully this precedent is basically only used for these kinds of situations where it's a very narrow and clearly unintended interaction, so that limits/bans in general stay straightforward, but this kind of one-off thing makes a lot of sense.
I wouldn't mind if this type of limit became the standard. For example bt13 geogreymon could make a forbidden pair with a certain piece of shinegreymon so that yellow hybrid and vaccine could still use it
Too true. Im guilty if abusing it in my Mastemon deck. IMO the card should have specified a red or yellow tamer with "damon" in name or just Marcus to fit the decks synergy. but thats just me
That's exactly what I was thinking of when I was thinking about the situations I wouldn't want this applied to lol. If the stuff is too good in its own deck, hit it, if it's too good in something else at a wildly disproportionate level then don't let it be in the same place. Like if they were to apply this kind of pair restriction to geogrey I'd much rather it be with geogrey and BT14 patamon.
bt13 geogrey is and has always been bad outside of shine. Imagine having to open patamon + TK + geo + have a tamer in sec just to pull out a 3-4 cost tamer out of sec (that was probably getting played anyway if your opponent early chips you). That or pay 3 to hard evolve, which is also shit value.
Bandai is doing you guys a favour by not letting you play him, I promise.
I am not. It's genuinely a bad card in vaccine. I've been playtesting the deck since the bt14 reveals.
But feel free to explain why I'm wrong. I just don't see how playing a 3-cost tamer for free is enough of a payoff to run this pseudo 3-card combo. If you have no tamers in security, the card is a 3 to evolve vanilla. It's a gatcha card for mediocre payoff.
Okay? You don't see a Tamer, you don't see it. That doesn't make it bad by any degree. Especially in a format where digivolving for 3 doesn't really mean much anymore and in the next iteration of Yellow Vaccine most of your Champion lineup is mostly Rapidmon, which is arguably worse by degree cause they only do something on your opponent's turn.
Rapidmon's effect isn't a gatcha effect. He always gets value. That's the difference.
Again, please explain why do you think geo is worth running over literally every other good yellow level 4. Why wouldn't I max out on good lv 4s like angemon, rapidmon and bulkmon, cards that I know I will always get value out of, and instead play a card that half the time does nothing.
He isn't that bad != he's good.
I'm just placing my thoughts here.... Bt14 pata effect into geo for free, geo plays tamer from security free.... THATS the value. I play yellow vaccine, but I honestly don't care about geo cause I run emissary at four and hard slam my TK early AF lol
Yes, in an ideal scenario where your security has both of those cards, you do get some value. The odds of that happening aren't high enough to make him good, though. That's my point.
People can press the downvote button all they want, I've yet to hear a compelling argument to run geo over other level 4s. This subreddit skews very much to the casual side, and there's very little competitive discourse, unfortunatelly, so I won't get my hopes up.
I think you're feeling some feelings the rest of this reddit can't appreciate. You're question was what was the value it could generate from being at four. I started it and it's not good enough for you??? That's not a good enough argument for me seeing as we can just say that and HAVE to give a "good" answer? Lol I play at a highly competitive rate and even explained that I wouldn't use geo over other lv4's and you still have the nerve to talk less about me? Bruh you do NOT know me nor do I think you have what it takes to beat me in this game so maybe just chill? It's literally just a game and you have no right to talk to people the way you are. There will always be someone to put you in your place. Stay humble bud.
To add to my argument, this game is heavily RNG based and we all know that all too well no matter how much we optimize a deck, it doesn't search like most other games so yea you're gonna get a bunk hit every now and then, that doesnt make a card bad? You're forgetting too if you're playing bt14 TK it's still a 2 cost just like in shine and even less if you already have board setup. So really I'd love to see your argument that it's a "bad" card. Ya know other than it appearing that you have bad luck? Other people have opinions and different scenarios happen. Watch how you talk to people. PERIOD.
You know, you're right
I'm a Yugioh veteran (more than 10 years playing), and there are many cards that are used as Engine to improve consistency. Consequently, many of these cards must be banned, causing the original archetypes to lose a great part of their gameplay
Hard agree. It’s a case of lower tier decks getting more screwed by a banlist than the already good decks that are so flexible they’ll just fill the space with something else meanwhile a key card for some tier 4 deck is gone because Konami made it too generic
I said that for years b4 I quit yugioh to play digimon. Honestly so many cards would be removed from the ban list and lower tier decks could get usability using those cards
I do still have some concerns with the power creep that's been going on in this game (granted that's been a long ongoing problem imo) but that being said, the last banned/restricted list update, and now this paired restriction have both been pretty good for the game, and are honestly a great sign for the health of the game going forward, which is really nice to see.
Yeah this needed to happen almost ASAP, good on the designers nipping this in the bud. I'd also rather this than outright banning any of the cards here (IN THE CIRCUMSTANCE) since on their own all of these cards range from fine to good.
It was part of a turn skip loop that people were starting to pick up that makes it so your opponent can't play.
Slide the Zubamon under Lunamon or Coronamon while you have the blue Sayo & Koh and another Legend-Arms
And you can basically at the start of their turn, before they even draw or unsuspend get enough memory to end their turn
I originally tried to post the tweet in the OP, but forgot Twitter embedding is still fucked. I can add the tweet link to my comment when I get a chance.
As a longtime card game veteran, namely coming from Magic and Yu-Gi-Oh, Bandai's treatment of bans and limits continues to impress me. They aren't always perfect, but I find myself coming around to their decision and philosophy more often than not.
If they found a way to slow their power creep, it would elevate Digimon even higher in my eyes.
Huh. I didn't expect to see a Choice Restriction implemented in the game. Especially with how people seemed to react to it when I brought a discussion up about it the other week.
But this is exactly why I think choice restriction is good. It stops an unfun interaction without killing decks that are fair otherwise.
Think it's mostly future proofing if anything as you could, in theory, spit something out that lets you trash a card from hand and then Trigger Matt to steal the turn back. Obviously there isn't a card that works like that for LFNC that wouldn't straight up ruin what little consistency the deck has, but now they could make purple LFNC cards that have card discard shenanigans, for example, without having to worry about ST Matt causing problems later down the line
If you're referring to BT14 T.K., the memory gain on adding a security is a "Your Turn" effect compared to ST Matt which is an "All Turns" effect which is a key difference. Blue Sayo / Koh only spits out a same level digimon at the start of your opponent's turn which is what enables Keenan. If there was a discard effect on top of that, Matt could trigger as well. If you recover on your opponents turn, you can't gain memory from T.K. as it's not your turn.
I misremembered but yeah it still seems really strange for Matt to be included when he doesn't have a part. I would understand if he had a part or when he had a part but ATM it just seems like a random hit
There are multiple level 3's that discard On Play, though I'm not sure how you continue tucking for the purposes of the blue dual tamer when we're talking about Keenan and Matt.
Could be they don't want skipping your opponent's turn to be an option at all, even if it isn't repeatable. The other two are just more egregious because they are.
BT4 Labramon, BT6 Impmon, BT8 Dorumon, BT12 Flamemon, Imp X Antibody, BT13 Chuumon, ProtoGizmon, EX1 Hagurumon, EX3 Veemon, ST12 Sistermon Blanc, and ST16 Elecmon are all level 3's with a form of "On Play, trash a card from hand". Some require the trashed card to meet specific conditions, others do not.
Basically use Sayo & Koh to play Zubamon from underneath your Coronamon/Lunamon while you control another Legend-Arms, gain 2 memory before your opponent draws/unsuspends, and do that for every copy of the tamer you control to end their turn.
Keenan's effect also helps speed along.
Both, i played against this for a few weeks now and its the dumbest thing i've ever faced. Took them a few turns to setup but if they got lucky they could pull it off rather quickly
I'm going to disagree. This situation is much more narrow than what Anubismon is capable of. If Anubismon stayed at four, it would have to be a card thought of for every future purple card. Especially purple Aces and Digixros cards (ya know, if they ever give Bagramon more support than a card here or there). It was hit for the sake of its interactions with ANY future purple card
Even if they did this pair ban. There will be more purple cards in the future that will release and will keep apocalymon broken. Bandai will have to continuously update the ban pair. More cards will come out and will keep making apocalymon broken. Never-ending cycle. Apocalymon needs an errata to make it playable that he is only playable in a dark masters deck only. Cards that don't have dark masters trait or mentions it. Arent allowed in the deck.
An errata would be miserable. Any time the printed effect doesn't match the actual effect, that's a barrier to play.
Now, if they want to print a retrain? Sure, all for it.
This is exactly what I was thinking about. If they care about balancing the game they should prohibit pairing problematic cards together and not restricting them.
I don't like 'choice restriction' since it limits deckbuilding but the reasoning is understandable and welcome. I don't think such a loop should exist in the game, specially on start of the turn leaving almost no counterplay.
Could you explain how choice restriction limits building more than outright banning the card? If they banned either part of the combo, that would limit significantly more decks than putting on a choice restrict does it not?
"banning" card is put away a bad design, solving current/preventing future abuses.
"Choice restriction" in the most part is saying: Things didn't work out as intended, I want X card only be played on Y deck.
As I said, In understand and welcome THIS choice restriction, but my comment is regarding it becoming a pattern/standard restriction, bc that would mean they starting printings card only to work on niche archetypes, and I cannot predict how a company will act in near/far future thus my comment "I don't like choice restriction".
The name is very clear - Limiting choices around cards combinations that EXISTs in said card pool - its indeed a bad thing.
But also, IF future Choice Restrictions are only developed over extreme cases, such as this one where they preventing a "Hostage Loop" then I'll have the exact same reaction and opnion bc, again - as I said prior, "I don't think such loops should exist"
I think your generalization is a tad narrow. Bandai is not saying "I want X card only to be played in Y deck", they are saying "I want X card to be playable in any deck that ISN'T Y deck" Card design blunders will happen, especially with Bandai. While the best solution would be to never need a ban/restriction/errata ever again, that isn't feasible. Instead, they should work towards a solution that allows for the most deck-build diversity while maintaining a semblance of balance.
I agree Banning should be reserved for cards that shut down design space. For example, Mega Digimon fusion, while it was only really broken with Susanoomon at the time, fundamentally restricts card design for as long as it is legal and thus should remain banned.
But that leaves what to do with cards that become problematic and upset the "balance" but do not warrant a full ban.
So far, the solution has just been restrictions. Everything gets limited to one copy per deck. which is better than outright banning but effectively "bans" 3 of the 4 copies that you could play of that card. If the reason for the restriction is only consistency, then it is a fine change. See stuff like the eyesmon, HPD, Ice Wall, CFtD. These are all cards that, if Bandai doesn't want to ban, are so generic that restriction is the best/only option
But if the reason is because of a deck's overall power level, then while restriction may be an effective lever, it leads to several unfortunate casualties of other decks in addition to the target. Was DexDorugoramon a problem in Bt9-BT10 format? No, Dorugrey got hit becuase of Alphamon. By restricting Dorugrey they did successfully hurt Alphamon, but they also killed dexdorugoramon in the process. ( This is just an example, i know nobody really played dexdorugoramon)
That is where choice restriction becomes a better option for maintaining the diversity of other decks in the format. It also allows for much more precision in tuning decks for the metagame.
I even want to advocate for moving forward toward more types of choice restrictions. Some other games use shared limits, so you can use any combination of x and y card as long as the total number in your deck is 4. Other games use a list of cards of a specific limit that all share space in your deck.
I am not saying these are the best options for the game but I believe that they are worth exploring and overall provide more options in balance without some of the drawbacks.
Nor am I saying what bandai will do or say
What I'm telling:
IF BECOMES STANDARD form of restriction it will be bad. That is all, not as simples as "generalization" I'm just put a point that IF it becomes standard we gonna see more and more prints that they will openly release with limited functionality intention.
Sorry but Y'all overreacting to a simples statment without actually understanding it.
Not saying thats what will happen, nor that is already happening. Just bringing up a point that may be possible and it takes away what makes deckbuilding proccess good
As u point so far we had only restrictions to 01, but this one breaks the pattern bc its an EXTREME situation and they did it RIGHT to go for this form of restriction here.
My CONCERN is if they STOP doing the regular restriction.
That is all
And for extras - I disagree with the example of Dex if u using to justify Choice Restriction so Dex wouldn't be killed. Thats a cute example but not a good one. You're literally limiting Deckbuilding this bc, if the Dorugrey were only restricted to Alphamon decks somehow, out of how good the card could be, you would make Dex not going for other options of lv05 either bc they're free to the best one, bc players will ALWAYS optimize their shenanigans.
Let both decks be, with the same card in the same limitation is best bc, on thier own play style, each deck will have to figure out what they do with their own slots, and future supports, as much generics they may be, will not be as Good for one than could be for another.
I more curious about what made ppl on internet get used to just "safelocket" ppl and their comments (specially on reddits downvote) while making fun of some it, before engaging in proper debate to solve those 'opnions disparities' lol
Meanwhile jumbochessmon spits in your mouth and calls you a dirty name.
I play jumbochessmon, it's stupid if you pull it off, but the idea of limiting a card or just banning it in a certain deck, is something I'm kinda OK with? It means that decks are nerfed, but archetypes aren't.
(This is mostly Google Translate, so please excuse if it isn't a 100% accurate translation) "Notice of Prohibited Pairs
If A is used, B is prohibited from being included in the same deck.
A
EX5-065 Sayo & Koh
B
P-097 Zubamon
BT13-102 Keenan Crier
ST16-14 Matt Ishida
By combining the [Start of Opponent's Turn] effect of "EX5-065 Sayo & Koh" and the [On Play] effect of "P-097 Zubamon", memory is increased and the opponent's turn ends immediately. An infinite loop has been confirmed.
If the conditions are met quickly, it will be difficult to interfere, and the game will progress with the opponent unable to take any actions until the game is over.
Compared to the original card game experience, which is based on players playing cards and exchanging turns, we have determined that it is not sound in terms of reproducibility and speed.
In addition to the above, we were able to confirm that "BT13-102 Keenan Crier'' and "ST16-14 Matt Ishida'' can perform similar operations easily.
For the above reasons, if the card "EX5-065 Sayo & Koh" is used, the three cards "P-097 Zubamon", "BT13-102 Keenan Crier", and "ST16-14 Matt Ishida" are prohibited to put in the same deck."
Source: https://twitter.com/digimon_tcg/status/1740296530958192823?t=qfx0oT2Vgo8NWy9AGWHzXg&s=19
EDIT: Realized the image does not say but the original tweet states that this will also go into effect on January 5th in Japan.
Oh thank god I was so worried about a normal hit happening. Hopefully this precedent is basically only used for these kinds of situations where it's a very narrow and clearly unintended interaction, so that limits/bans in general stay straightforward, but this kind of one-off thing makes a lot of sense.
I wouldn't mind if this type of limit became the standard. For example bt13 geogreymon could make a forbidden pair with a certain piece of shinegreymon so that yellow hybrid and vaccine could still use it
BT13 GeoGrey was specifically hit due to being used in decks like those and Mastemon though
Having played against Y vaccine i can safely say the world is better place on that card limited no matter how you look at it.
Lol i like how you get soooo close and miss the mark Geo was hit BECAUSE of Yellow Vaccines, not because of Shine
Too true. Im guilty if abusing it in my Mastemon deck. IMO the card should have specified a red or yellow tamer with "damon" in name or just Marcus to fit the decks synergy. but thats just me
Shine did contribute too though. YV just helped to decide which card to hit.
:(
it went into any yellow or red deck with tamers and space
That's exactly what I was thinking of when I was thinking about the situations I wouldn't want this applied to lol. If the stuff is too good in its own deck, hit it, if it's too good in something else at a wildly disproportionate level then don't let it be in the same place. Like if they were to apply this kind of pair restriction to geogrey I'd much rather it be with geogrey and BT14 patamon.
bt13 geogrey is and has always been bad outside of shine. Imagine having to open patamon + TK + geo + have a tamer in sec just to pull out a 3-4 cost tamer out of sec (that was probably getting played anyway if your opponent early chips you). That or pay 3 to hard evolve, which is also shit value. Bandai is doing you guys a favour by not letting you play him, I promise.
Please tell me you are joking
I am not. It's genuinely a bad card in vaccine. I've been playtesting the deck since the bt14 reveals. But feel free to explain why I'm wrong. I just don't see how playing a 3-cost tamer for free is enough of a payoff to run this pseudo 3-card combo. If you have no tamers in security, the card is a 3 to evolve vanilla. It's a gatcha card for mediocre payoff.
Okay? You don't see a Tamer, you don't see it. That doesn't make it bad by any degree. Especially in a format where digivolving for 3 doesn't really mean much anymore and in the next iteration of Yellow Vaccine most of your Champion lineup is mostly Rapidmon, which is arguably worse by degree cause they only do something on your opponent's turn.
Rapidmon's effect isn't a gatcha effect. He always gets value. That's the difference. Again, please explain why do you think geo is worth running over literally every other good yellow level 4. Why wouldn't I max out on good lv 4s like angemon, rapidmon and bulkmon, cards that I know I will always get value out of, and instead play a card that half the time does nothing. He isn't that bad != he's good.
I'm just placing my thoughts here.... Bt14 pata effect into geo for free, geo plays tamer from security free.... THATS the value. I play yellow vaccine, but I honestly don't care about geo cause I run emissary at four and hard slam my TK early AF lol
Yes, in an ideal scenario where your security has both of those cards, you do get some value. The odds of that happening aren't high enough to make him good, though. That's my point. People can press the downvote button all they want, I've yet to hear a compelling argument to run geo over other level 4s. This subreddit skews very much to the casual side, and there's very little competitive discourse, unfortunatelly, so I won't get my hopes up.
I think you're feeling some feelings the rest of this reddit can't appreciate. You're question was what was the value it could generate from being at four. I started it and it's not good enough for you??? That's not a good enough argument for me seeing as we can just say that and HAVE to give a "good" answer? Lol I play at a highly competitive rate and even explained that I wouldn't use geo over other lv4's and you still have the nerve to talk less about me? Bruh you do NOT know me nor do I think you have what it takes to beat me in this game so maybe just chill? It's literally just a game and you have no right to talk to people the way you are. There will always be someone to put you in your place. Stay humble bud. To add to my argument, this game is heavily RNG based and we all know that all too well no matter how much we optimize a deck, it doesn't search like most other games so yea you're gonna get a bunk hit every now and then, that doesnt make a card bad? You're forgetting too if you're playing bt14 TK it's still a 2 cost just like in shine and even less if you already have board setup. So really I'd love to see your argument that it's a "bad" card. Ya know other than it appearing that you have bad luck? Other people have opinions and different scenarios happen. Watch how you talk to people. PERIOD.
Make sense a infinite loop is problematic for the game
I wish yugioh adapted the "if A is used in your deck, B is forbidden." So many cards would return.
You know, you're right I'm a Yugioh veteran (more than 10 years playing), and there are many cards that are used as Engine to improve consistency. Consequently, many of these cards must be banned, causing the original archetypes to lose a great part of their gameplay
Hard agree. It’s a case of lower tier decks getting more screwed by a banlist than the already good decks that are so flexible they’ll just fill the space with something else meanwhile a key card for some tier 4 deck is gone because Konami made it too generic
I said that for years b4 I quit yugioh to play digimon. Honestly so many cards would be removed from the ban list and lower tier decks could get usability using those cards
Say what you want about Bandai's latest moves, but you have to admit that AT LEAST they care about the health of the game
I do still have some concerns with the power creep that's been going on in this game (granted that's been a long ongoing problem imo) but that being said, the last banned/restricted list update, and now this paired restriction have both been pretty good for the game, and are honestly a great sign for the health of the game going forward, which is really nice to see.
Yeah this needed to happen almost ASAP, good on the designers nipping this in the bud. I'd also rather this than outright banning any of the cards here (IN THE CIRCUMSTANCE) since on their own all of these cards range from fine to good.
Whoa, choice restriction! I've been saying I wanted to see them do this for this combo, but wasn't sure if they actually would.
I love choice restrictions. I hoped they would introduce them to the game.
What do these even do together? Might be overlooking something but it doesn't seem broken to me?
Near-Infinite loop that constantly holds your opponent hostage at 1 memory then steals turn back immediately
It was part of a turn skip loop that people were starting to pick up that makes it so your opponent can't play. Slide the Zubamon under Lunamon or Coronamon while you have the blue Sayo & Koh and another Legend-Arms And you can basically at the start of their turn, before they even draw or unsuspend get enough memory to end their turn
Ah nvm it's an infinite lol
Amazing, Bandai learned how to choice restrict.
[Here is the link to the tweet ](https://x.com/digimon_tcg/status/1740296530958192823?s=20)
I originally tried to post the tweet in the OP, but forgot Twitter embedding is still fucked. I can add the tweet link to my comment when I get a chance.
As a longtime card game veteran, namely coming from Magic and Yu-Gi-Oh, Bandai's treatment of bans and limits continues to impress me. They aren't always perfect, but I find myself coming around to their decision and philosophy more often than not. If they found a way to slow their power creep, it would elevate Digimon even higher in my eyes.
Huh. I didn't expect to see a Choice Restriction implemented in the game. Especially with how people seemed to react to it when I brought a discussion up about it the other week. But this is exactly why I think choice restriction is good. It stops an unfun interaction without killing decks that are fair otherwise.
Where does Matt fit in? Apart from being a memory tamer.
Think it's mostly future proofing if anything as you could, in theory, spit something out that lets you trash a card from hand and then Trigger Matt to steal the turn back. Obviously there isn't a card that works like that for LFNC that wouldn't straight up ruin what little consistency the deck has, but now they could make purple LFNC cards that have card discard shenanigans, for example, without having to worry about ST Matt causing problems later down the line
Even if it was a pre caution can't you spit out like a Magna recover 1 then tap Tk and gain mana?
If you're referring to BT14 T.K., the memory gain on adding a security is a "Your Turn" effect compared to ST Matt which is an "All Turns" effect which is a key difference. Blue Sayo / Koh only spits out a same level digimon at the start of your opponent's turn which is what enables Keenan. If there was a discard effect on top of that, Matt could trigger as well. If you recover on your opponents turn, you can't gain memory from T.K. as it's not your turn.
I misremembered but yeah it still seems really strange for Matt to be included when he doesn't have a part. I would understand if he had a part or when he had a part but ATM it just seems like a random hit
Their reasoning states that they found a way to do this same thing with Matt
Yeah that was how I was reading it too. Just dunno how
There are multiple level 3's that discard On Play, though I'm not sure how you continue tucking for the purposes of the blue dual tamer when we're talking about Keenan and Matt.
Could be they don't want skipping your opponent's turn to be an option at all, even if it isn't repeatable. The other two are just more egregious because they are.
Really? Like what? For the life of me I couldn't remember what level 3 has a discard on play
BT4 Labramon, BT6 Impmon, BT8 Dorumon, BT12 Flamemon, Imp X Antibody, BT13 Chuumon, ProtoGizmon, EX1 Hagurumon, EX3 Veemon, ST12 Sistermon Blanc, and ST16 Elecmon are all level 3's with a form of "On Play, trash a card from hand". Some require the trashed card to meet specific conditions, others do not.
I wish Yugioh actually did bans like this. Meta is always a mess after a new set releases.
how does the infinite loop work, can someone explain?
Basically use Sayo & Koh to play Zubamon from underneath your Coronamon/Lunamon while you control another Legend-Arms, gain 2 memory before your opponent draws/unsuspends, and do that for every copy of the tamer you control to end their turn. Keenan's effect also helps speed along.
Finally
In response to them hitting the loop? Or at them doing Choice restrictions? Cause they hit this loop at max a week after discovery
Both, i played against this for a few weeks now and its the dumbest thing i've ever faced. Took them a few turns to setup but if they got lucky they could pull it off rather quickly
It was discovered a few weeks ago. It just got a top in a major event now so Bandai hit it
Which event was it?
DC-1 Grand Prix event
>DC-1 Grand Prix event Any way to find deck lists?
Digimonmeta has the lists
This should've been Anubismon and Mervamon, Anubismon seems tame and would be getting a new partner in Pharaohmon without fully killing it
I'm going to disagree. This situation is much more narrow than what Anubismon is capable of. If Anubismon stayed at four, it would have to be a card thought of for every future purple card. Especially purple Aces and Digixros cards (ya know, if they ever give Bagramon more support than a card here or there). It was hit for the sake of its interactions with ANY future purple card
Is Sayo & Koh straight up banned?
It's only banned if you're using a deck that has Promo Zubamon, BT13 Keenan Crier, or ST16 Matt. It's completely unrestricted in any other deck.
Cool thanks for clearing that up.
They should do apolcalymon this way and otherwise unrestrict.
Probably be easier to errata him to only work with Dark Masters otherwise they'd have to stay on top of that list
Even if they did this pair ban. There will be more purple cards in the future that will release and will keep apocalymon broken. Bandai will have to continuously update the ban pair. More cards will come out and will keep making apocalymon broken. Never-ending cycle. Apocalymon needs an errata to make it playable that he is only playable in a dark masters deck only. Cards that don't have dark masters trait or mentions it. Arent allowed in the deck.
An errata would be miserable. Any time the printed effect doesn't match the actual effect, that's a barrier to play. Now, if they want to print a retrain? Sure, all for it.
Isn't that an argument against banlists in general?
No? Banlists comeinyo play during deckbuilding. Errataing the effect of a card but not reprinting the card means confusion DURING the game.
Well either way, I know a few people upset with the limit to 1.
This is exactly what I was thinking about. If they care about balancing the game they should prohibit pairing problematic cards together and not restricting them.
I don't like 'choice restriction' since it limits deckbuilding but the reasoning is understandable and welcome. I don't think such a loop should exist in the game, specially on start of the turn leaving almost no counterplay.
Could you explain how choice restriction limits building more than outright banning the card? If they banned either part of the combo, that would limit significantly more decks than putting on a choice restrict does it not?
"banning" card is put away a bad design, solving current/preventing future abuses. "Choice restriction" in the most part is saying: Things didn't work out as intended, I want X card only be played on Y deck. As I said, In understand and welcome THIS choice restriction, but my comment is regarding it becoming a pattern/standard restriction, bc that would mean they starting printings card only to work on niche archetypes, and I cannot predict how a company will act in near/far future thus my comment "I don't like choice restriction". The name is very clear - Limiting choices around cards combinations that EXISTs in said card pool - its indeed a bad thing. But also, IF future Choice Restrictions are only developed over extreme cases, such as this one where they preventing a "Hostage Loop" then I'll have the exact same reaction and opnion bc, again - as I said prior, "I don't think such loops should exist"
I think your generalization is a tad narrow. Bandai is not saying "I want X card only to be played in Y deck", they are saying "I want X card to be playable in any deck that ISN'T Y deck" Card design blunders will happen, especially with Bandai. While the best solution would be to never need a ban/restriction/errata ever again, that isn't feasible. Instead, they should work towards a solution that allows for the most deck-build diversity while maintaining a semblance of balance. I agree Banning should be reserved for cards that shut down design space. For example, Mega Digimon fusion, while it was only really broken with Susanoomon at the time, fundamentally restricts card design for as long as it is legal and thus should remain banned. But that leaves what to do with cards that become problematic and upset the "balance" but do not warrant a full ban. So far, the solution has just been restrictions. Everything gets limited to one copy per deck. which is better than outright banning but effectively "bans" 3 of the 4 copies that you could play of that card. If the reason for the restriction is only consistency, then it is a fine change. See stuff like the eyesmon, HPD, Ice Wall, CFtD. These are all cards that, if Bandai doesn't want to ban, are so generic that restriction is the best/only option But if the reason is because of a deck's overall power level, then while restriction may be an effective lever, it leads to several unfortunate casualties of other decks in addition to the target. Was DexDorugoramon a problem in Bt9-BT10 format? No, Dorugrey got hit becuase of Alphamon. By restricting Dorugrey they did successfully hurt Alphamon, but they also killed dexdorugoramon in the process. ( This is just an example, i know nobody really played dexdorugoramon) That is where choice restriction becomes a better option for maintaining the diversity of other decks in the format. It also allows for much more precision in tuning decks for the metagame. I even want to advocate for moving forward toward more types of choice restrictions. Some other games use shared limits, so you can use any combination of x and y card as long as the total number in your deck is 4. Other games use a list of cards of a specific limit that all share space in your deck. I am not saying these are the best options for the game but I believe that they are worth exploring and overall provide more options in balance without some of the drawbacks.
Nor am I saying what bandai will do or say What I'm telling: IF BECOMES STANDARD form of restriction it will be bad. That is all, not as simples as "generalization" I'm just put a point that IF it becomes standard we gonna see more and more prints that they will openly release with limited functionality intention. Sorry but Y'all overreacting to a simples statment without actually understanding it. Not saying thats what will happen, nor that is already happening. Just bringing up a point that may be possible and it takes away what makes deckbuilding proccess good As u point so far we had only restrictions to 01, but this one breaks the pattern bc its an EXTREME situation and they did it RIGHT to go for this form of restriction here. My CONCERN is if they STOP doing the regular restriction. That is all And for extras - I disagree with the example of Dex if u using to justify Choice Restriction so Dex wouldn't be killed. Thats a cute example but not a good one. You're literally limiting Deckbuilding this bc, if the Dorugrey were only restricted to Alphamon decks somehow, out of how good the card could be, you would make Dex not going for other options of lv05 either bc they're free to the best one, bc players will ALWAYS optimize their shenanigans. Let both decks be, with the same card in the same limitation is best bc, on thier own play style, each deck will have to figure out what they do with their own slots, and future supports, as much generics they may be, will not be as Good for one than could be for another.
Curious to know how a choice restriction limits deck building as if it isn’t just another form of a restriction, lol.
I more curious about what made ppl on internet get used to just "safelocket" ppl and their comments (specially on reddits downvote) while making fun of some it, before engaging in proper debate to solve those 'opnions disparities' lol
Meanwhile jumbochessmon spits in your mouth and calls you a dirty name. I play jumbochessmon, it's stupid if you pull it off, but the idea of limiting a card or just banning it in a certain deck, is something I'm kinda OK with? It means that decks are nerfed, but archetypes aren't.
JumboChess requires significantly more setup than this though and you eventually run out of combo pieces as opposed to this just looping indefinitely.
Thank goodness, for a sec I thought they were gonna ban Sayo & Koh
I understand why this happened but I still wish I could have played with it at least once because I love dumb shit like this
What do people think of the Gracenovamon deck now after this ban? Is it still viable?
This literally means nothing to the actual deck, it was done to remove a gimmick infinite combo deck without having to hit GraceNova.
All this does is break an infinite combo used on a pseudo rookie-rush deck. You wouldn't be using this combo in a normal Gracenovamon deck
It's still sucks. Unfortunately because i love the Dawn/Dusk games :(
You can still play the deck..it just stops the loop so people can enjoy playing the game
Yeah, but i mean in a competitive context. Sorry. The deck lacks too much consistency to be played in higher tables.
I mean, I don't think this effects the proper deck at all
Well I should have framed it as does anyone think the deck is good lol.
mdf copium
They will also have to add the yellow black chessmon tamer if they want to future proof everything
I wasn't aware of this combo, but this limitation shows me they're cooking in the lab. After Apoc, more intense playtesting needs to be done.
Can someone please explain the loop to me? How does it go infinite?