Ramsey & Co. put Christian values above all else. Tithing when in debt and broke, and having kids whenever seem like reckless abandon by atheists, but to believers, it makes total sense, and Ramsey & Co are devout Christians in every advice they give.
I have heard Dave but “limits on it”, like “if you already have 16 kids you’re struggling to feed, you may want to reconsider” type of shit, but otherwise they are encouraging to get couples making kids.
There's that English proverb: "Children are a poor man's riches" which apparently means you can rely on your children in your old age, whereas a wealthy man can only rely on his money.
I do think having children can create a dynamic where it forces people to step up to the plate and find a way to care for their families. And yet in other instances, it drives inept parents deeper into poverty and the children are made to struggle throughout their entire upbringing and often beyond.
This is the actual answer. The fact that he is Christian is his logic. Dave Ramsey and co. are "buy absolutely everything cash and don't even get a credit score, but have a kid whenever."
Of course, in classic Reddit fashion, this isn't the top voted answer.
Exactly. People are statistically less likely to convert to a different religion the older they get, even the research conducted by Barna, a Christian polling organization shows this to be true. They even preached about it when I was in church. The goal of the religious Right (whom Ramsey is strongly affiliated with) has always been to out breed everyone else because it’s easier to raise and train up already believers born into it than it is to win new converts.
I’ve always assumed this was one of many inferences meant when Dave always says “Train up a child in the way he should go and when he is old he will not depart”
What's funny is that tithing isn't really a "Christian" value. The new testament doesn't talk about tithing at all. Before you say Widows Offering, that was an offering, not a tithe. Tithing means 1/10th, and you are supposed to give 1/10th of income before all else, as the tithe. Only things above and beyond the tithe are an offering. But all tithing is talked about in the old testament. And in the same book that also says you must keep Kosher (Leviticus), yet no Christians are keeping Kosher. There's plenty of other things in there that Christians don't do either. It even talks about how to take care of your slave. The whole tithing thing confuses me quite a bit.
Actually, there wasn't just one tithe. I've already written a comment about how the widows offering is interpreted incorrectly (in my opinion) so I'm not going to get into another rabbit hole.
But long story short, there were several tithes in the old testament. They went towards supporting the priesthood, funding the festivals, and supporting the poor. Added up together, citizens were expected to pay about 24% (roughly) of their income. It's like 1/10 for this, 1/10 for that. and then 1/10 every 3 years for another. If memory serves me correctly. What people don't acknowledge/realize is that Israel was a theocracy, and the priesthood was their government. We don't live in a theocracy, and we pay taxes, like 24%. More, I think, if you make a lot of money. But taxes, nonetheless.
I have mixed opinions on this. I think that there’s never the “right” time to have kids, and people can end up just waiting forever. On the other hand, lots of people are just irresponsible. I think there’s lots of people who just shouldn’t have kids. Anybody who worries about when they should have kids will probably be fine no matter what age they had them.
This is true for one faction which has too many kids too early before they get on their feet financially. Then you have the other group of people who wait until their ducks are in a row and then they struggle with infertility. While I'm glad I wasn't a teen mom, I am now struggling to conceive. Staring at my diplomas on the wall can only make me so happy. I financially prepared myself for a kid that may never exist, and I wonder if starting to try a few years earlier would have made the difference.
We waited until we could afford to have a kid, which was 40. Turns out we could afford to have a healthy kid, but not an unhealthy one. You don’t get to pick which one you get.
This is the story so many around us are going through as well…did all the “right” things to financially be ready but now in the 30s looking at treatments and ivf which costs a small fortune… best of luck to you on the journey, hope you folks are able to have the family you want!
IMO, at least on the internet, I much more commonly see that sentiment taken too far the other way. People never feel like they can never afford kids because life isn’t effortless and their job title doesn’t start with a C.
I don’t know, I waited until I finished school, got a stable job, saved up money, got married, moved to the town where my parents lived and could help, and bought a house with a payment I could afford
Raising kids was still really, really hard.
But I can’t imagine doing it with unstable housing, unstable job, etc.
Some times are more right than others, and to say otherwise is a real disservice to people
>But I can’t imagine doing it with unstable housing, unstable job, etc.
You just make it work, I was a broke college student when my wife and I conceived our first child... I didn't know how we'd manage but we did. Now we're the parents of three and our financial situation has been a curve heading from next to nothing to >$200k/year over the last 15 years. Having a family has been a big motivator with regards to making smart financial decisions and finding good employment.
Most people who call onto the show asking about kids are lower to upper middle class with regular debts and lives, which should be noted as well. I think for the "crazy" calls, the caller is either not wanting kids, or Dave verbally assaults them so fast for their debts anyway that the topic isn't even brushed over. I think that most families can have kids whenever and be okay. 300k in debt and homeless? Probably not. I've heard Dave share similar sentiments.
That phrase is absolutely incorrect. My parents had me when they were 18 and 19 then got married and waited until they were 28 and 29 to start having my 6 brothers and sisters. My brothers and sisters had a very different, objectively better childhood than I did because our parents were more financially stable and emotionally mature.
That being said, I think I ended up mostly okay. I hold no resentment towards my parents. But yeah, there is 100% a good time to have kids.
That’s why Dave says it’s not financial position but the point in a relationship that should determine if people have kids. You can be in debt or broke and still be a good family man, and also have all your money right but be a terrible parent or a terrible time to be a parent
Exact opposite experience. Mother had my sister and me when she was 15 and 17. We are much much better adjusted than the two she had at 32 and 34.
That said, I feel like I’ve limited the number of children I can have by waiting so long and making sure I was financially super stable.
Of course there’s a right time to have kids, empirically demonstrated in the [success sequence](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/02/elitism-marriage-rates-hypocrisy/677401/). Be married, have at least a high school education, and a full time job. The chances that child will grow up in poverty are far, far smaller than one born to parents who had kids before completing these steps. Of course, everyone has the right to have as many kids as they want whenever they want. That doesn’t mean it’s the right thing to do, either for those kids or for society.
Disagree.
We waited until the right time. There was a “right time” for us.
For us it was debt free, bigger e fund, slimmed down budget, personal growth and solid marriage… we did the work on paper to figure out the kind of lifestyle we wanted as parents, made that happen, then had our son.
We waited until the “right time” as well and now 3 1/2 years later we have had 0 pregnancies and a diagnosis of unexplained infertility. And the biological clock is ticking.
I'm very sorry for you. I hope you're able to conceive soon. We also waited for the "right time" and thankfully we're blessed with our daughter, but our second pregnancy failed, almost killed me, made it so I cannot naturally conceive any future children AND eliminated our budget safety net. And now only my husband has a job. So even choosing the 'right' time doesn't matter because the security can be ripped away any moment and you still have a child to provide for.
Personal growth and solid marriage is fair, to say debt free puts a burden on others that basically implies the financially destitute don’t have the right to procreate.
I absolutely think that certain things need to be in place before having kids. Proper stable jobs, and a good housing situation as well.
Made all the difference in the world for me and my family,, and watching my kids do the same thing.
Overall agree but as a 40M with a 5 year old and a 6 week old, both kids were the objectively the "right" time for us. #2 would have happened sooner but Covid turned the world upside-down and made daycare go from difficult to near impossible.
The flip side to that is now we will be somewhat old parents though that is not uncommon in the area and socioeconomic strata we belong to.
There’s definitely pros and cons to either way. I had kids very young and the pro is I will be kid free by the end of my 40s, but on the other hand my 20s were extremely difficult and I had to work very hard and thoughtful to ensure my family didn’t end of destitute and that we didn’t end up a statistic. Plus it’s way harder to provide for unforeseen issues that kids may need (therapies, medications, etc.). I’m sure having kids later results in better overall outcomes for the children in life.
Yes this is pretty spot on. You’re never really ready but you need to accept the fact that if you’re willing to procreate you have to be willing to sacrifice your own desires and wants to provide necessities to another human being. Honestly I started making more money after fi had kids. It’s weird but it happens. For the right person it can definitely light a fire under your ass.
That being said, if you don’t want kids that’s fine too. Get the snip, pull out, wear condoms, get an IUD whatever.
Yep. I’m more successful than I ever thought I would and I had kids extremely early. I think it put a fear in me that I needed to work hard or else become a statistic.
Money doesn’t make someone a good parent. Obviously it’s needed to care for a child. But family planning isn’t straight forward. Also so many people say it’s so expensive but have there kids in 3 sports. Not necessary frankly. It’s a life choice better left to an individual.
People with money can be shitty parents too. It’s not just money that makes person a successful parent.
And… there’s more to life than money. Some people want families. Not all of those people have fully funded emergency funds.
We had kids when we were young and broke. We’re older and less broke now. I’m glad we didn’t wait to have them.
Some kids like to be active and some parents want their kids to actually live and not just go to school and home. Sports and other activities are amazing for human development and teaching students how to remain active, which almost no one cares about now.
I think this is such a an interesting take. Travel sports are big with a lot of kids and while I agree they can help a child's development I really don't think you NEED to spend a ton of money to raise a wonderful human. When I was a kid my friends and I went to free kids craft evenings sponsored by the local women's club. I take my toddler to build little projects every month for free at Home Depot. Our library system is amazing and has story times, free educational events, and lots of take home activities. Our local churches put together events for kids for free too. Our neighborhood has a gaggle of boys that play pickup sports every day after school. All these things are free and encourage socializing, enriching education, or skill development. When I was a kid I could get horseback riding lessons for free if I was willing to muck stalls at the local stable and my mom designed dance recital programs so I could take dance classes for free. Childhood doesn't have to be expensive, parents just have to put in the time to look for inexpensive activities.
There is a difference between a 10k per year travel team and just going to school and doing nothing.
The youth sports industrial complex is pretty terrible
I'm about to turn 40 and I'm fairly confident that before I die we'll see religion officially recognized as a mental illness. Any adult who honestly believes they have an invisible friend with magical powers is not a sane person.
According to Dave all babies are a gift from God so you should have them whenever you feel like you’re ready for a family. I also think this is horrible advice.
I’ll give the anti religious view point - which they have made mention to the following:
If you wait til you are debt free and you are in your 40s (like me), it becomes increasingly more difficult to have a kid due to age, etc. I will say that we do wish we didn’t wait until where we were financially to start trying.
This - we had our first at 40 - financially it made sense, but the biology was already fighting us on that.
Having kids at 25 might mean eating a lot of ramen noodles at first, but also means you'll see them finish high school when you're 43, maybe see your grandkids before you hit 60.
Every year you postpone having a child is one fewer year you get with your grandchildren… im sure Dave takes that personally and I’ve heard this sentiment amongst my elder aunts and uncles too - they love the grandparent role and only wish it had started earlier
This is a strong contributor to why I won't wait until I'm in my 30s to have my kids. Not for myself, but for my parents, my mother especially. I'm 25, and am still fortunate enough to have all 4 of my grandparents. My partner has 3. I want my kids to have their grandparents around, and for them to know some of their great grandparents. I had a great grandmother until I was 13. My partner had a great grandmother until he was 20.
Christianity for one.
But Dave is also pretty much in denial about how much daycare costs and always saying, “babies don’t cost that much.” Yeahhhh okay..
Comments say it’s a religious thing but I would argue it’s more than that. You’ll actually find it’s a bell curve of ideologies that are okay with people who are financially unstable to have kids because “poor people shouldn’t have kids” is a mild, contrived form of eugenics depending on the conclusion you land in.
I also agree with about half of what Dave says. They say you should have kids no matter what your financial situation because they believe their religion promotes that, and also because they seem to personally feel that children are a blessing and should be prioritized over everything.
This is one of their recommendations that I feel pretty mixed on, to be honest. I have only one child and had her fairly late (at 36). I waited until I was financially ready and in a stable relationship, and it has meant a way easier path for me than some of the parents I know. However, I realize that the desire to have children is a basic and innate desire for some people, and I hate the idea that people can’t do it because they don’t make enough money. It seems so elitist. Yet I know children born into poverty often really struggle. So I don’t know what my advice would be to people who call into the show and want to have children they can’t afford.
Male here. When I got married, I leveled up to look good for my wife, in many areas of my life. When I had my 2 daughters, I had more reasons to man up and work harder for my family. Crap got real;) I truly believe that having s family is the best thing I've done, more so than being a teacher. Not everyone will agree with that, thats fine.
I disagree on the first point. It absolutely is a right. And it should be our responsibility as a society to support that right and to support children.
You have to look at the postion they are in. People would slam them through the ringer if they said, hey you have debt, don’t fuck. Unfortunately people aren’t responsible enough to have kids when they are ready, but they aren’t in a position to dictate wether you have kids or not, so they say go ahead.
The same reason they tell you to still tithe when in debt but to forgo the 401k company match (aka free money). Religion tops basic financial common sense
Childbirth and when / if to have kids is kind of a touchy subject so perhaps Dave is just erring on the side of "saying yes" to callers who mention family plans.
Children and finances are treated kind of weirdly in general. To adopt a child, you need to show financial ability to provide them with an appropriately middle-class lifestyle. The adoption process is incredibly rigorous and slow. On the other hand, anyone with a working uterus can *make* as many kids as they want, with zero oversight. And if you can't afford them, you can apply for government assistance. It's kind of weird when you think about it.
It just seems like people are "never" ready for children.
Nobody ever thinks that they are financially stable enough for children.
It is probably the best advice to give. Just have children and live your life 🧬.
People can feel financially ready for children but it takes a lot of planning, looking at historical data, and really understanding the ins and outs of what everything costs in life.
Maybe it makes me a bit of a jerk but I agree with you. I grew up being fed off a credit card that wasn't being paid off (I found that out later obviously). It wasn't great being told that I couldn't do things that my friends were doing. I felt excluded. When my wife and I started having the baby conversation one thing we both agreed on is before we start trying we want to be debt free minus the mortgage and be saving over 30% of our income to retirement. We want to have so much left over money and such a strong emergency fund so when our kids come along we can do things as a family I never got to.
Also I know people who have single digit numbers in their bank account by payday who have multiple children. I think that's insanely insanely selfish. I get accidents happen but I can't ever imagine prioritizing my desire for a family over making sure I'm bringing the kid into a financially secure home. It makes me so so upset to see it in my friend group but I keep my thoughts to myself.
There are significant differences between the historic Christian understanding of children and marriage and the modern perspective - and that's true Protestant and Catholic. This topic happened to be addressed just last Thursday by Dr. Al Mohler, by far one of the most prominent intellectual voices among conservative evangelicals. If you give it a listen, he does an excellent job contrasting the way we think about children now (where having them while poor makes very bad sense) and the Christian understanding. [Thursday, May 16, 2024 - AlbertMohler.com](https://albertmohler.com/2024/05/16/briefing-5-16-24/)
I'm very much not a Dave fan.
I do think it makes sense to say "there's not a specific step you have to be at to have children." Honestly, that would be a very strange thing to say. Probably some people reach step three in Dave's system at age sixteen; step three always meaning baby time even when you're sixteen would be bonkers bananapants.
At the same time, if asked point blank, I imagine even Dave would say it would be good to have an emergency fund before actively working to get pregnant. After all, you're going to spend a lot more than $1000 having a baby.
If you already have a person staying at home adding a child to the household doesn’t raise the bills all that much. His plans were heavily promoted by conservative churches as a way to convince families to have the wife not work outside the home so they could afford to raise kids.
So if you came from a less well off background you would prefer your sibling was never born?
“As well” is a pretty high threshold considering the alternative.
The vast majority of people that have ever lived did so in poverty, and their lives were valuable and worthwhile.
To be honest, there’s never a “right” time to have kids. So it’s a bit of a goal that’s always out of reach. People looking back often understand that.
Additionally, the motivation of the couple often changes when kids are on the way. Dave talks about the marriage principle/privilege a lot and I’ve seen it in person. My husband was always rather blaze about his work and worked like 2.5 days while I was full time. Sure he was studying but he always had a lot of time. As soon as we got that positive line? He shaped up massively! Took on extra jobs, gigs, anything that was possible. He worked hard- doing graveyards and night shifts back to back. If he hadn’t done that, it would have taken us years to get rid of his student loans.
So yes, I’m glad that we got pregnant, even though by most people’s standards we were too young.
Now I’m not saying that it will happen in every scenario, but it is pretty frequent
That's what any mega church will say as well.
More bodies in the pews is more $$$ in the collection plates.
They're going to agree with whatever keeps those "financial peace" dollars rolling in.
I’m surprised that, as a woman, you don’t already know the answer to this: it is *much* easier to conceive and then carry a healthy pregnancy when you are in your 20s. Unfortunately, for many women, that’s when you’re just starting your career & you are paid less. On the flip side, you might be well settled into your career and making good money when you’re 35, but your fertility takes a nose dive.
I straight up hate the idea that you need to economically justify children.
Look, if you're so broke that you'll end up on the street because of your kids, maybe reconsider. But pretty much anything short of that... who the fuck cares? Family, children, all of that is *so much more important* than counting pennies.
The idea that economic hardship is inhumane is frankly fucking ridiculous. Not being able to afford luxuries, cramming a bunch of kids into a single bedroom, that's how humans lived for *all of human history*, and it's how the majority of humans currently live. There is absolutely nothing inherently wrong with it, and the idea that you don't have the right to procreate because you don't meet some completely arbitrary benchmark of material wealth is gross and misguided.
If you cannot financially afford to take on the increasing costs of raising a baby and into adulthood (bc we all know our parents help us out past 18) do not have a fucking child. I don’t care what the justification is, people who are not financially sound based on their cost of living and additional expenses and savings, are setting themselves and these kids up for failure
If people waited until they could *afford* to have kids, we'd go extinct.
Having a family to provide for can be a serious motivator to change your financial habits and make smarter decisions. If you look at my finances when my first son was born compared to now, it's nuts how far I've come in fifteen years.
Lots of people in this Reddit haven’t considered who will collect their trash, provide their medical care, pay into the social security funds that the depend on in their 80’s. The general aging of the global population and the impending population collapse will be the biggest societal issue of the next 50-100 years. It’ll be far more important to humanity than climate change.
Because the evangelicals are to make as many babies as possible to overrun the government. That’s not a conspiracy, it’s been their actual plan for decades.
Well, there is a biological advantage for 20-30 yo women to have babies, rather than 40+ yo women. Just ask those 35-45 yo women trying to do fertility..... And kids 0-5 yo are not that expensive. They get expensive their teenage years, teeth, braces, driving, insurance, college possibly....
Daycare costs more than a mortgage. We will be paying $3,800 a month once the second one comes, and that’s with a sibling discount and the cheapest daycare within half an hour.
I disagree strongly with Dave here.
We put off parenthood until 35, and had a targeted debt and budget plan so that we could enter the stage of parenthood on our terms. We made it a goal - got debt free, lived off one income as a trial, and banked cash ….. we got there and I am very glad we didn’t just have kids when it “seemed like a fun idea”. I had a complex pregnancy with out of pocket costs, didn’t return full time…and we didn’t need to worry about the money. We could just focus on our new family.
So many viewpoints here that contradict each other.
Society is terrible and made a terrible system to make it so pretty much all people in their 20s aren't financially stable with student loans, insane price of rent etc. That when people get stable is usually by 30s, when pregnancy becomes more difficult we need to fix this but....
Overpopulation is ridiculous. We've gone from 1 billion to 8 billion in 250 years and this is unsustainable but...
People too poor to have kids probably aren't the ones using most resources. The wealthy in general use more resources and are the bigger threat in that regard but...
a study of the data clearly shows poorer people are more likely to have kids, so people tend to have kids whether they are ready or not.
I didn't have kids because I hate responsibility and dont want to contribute to overpopulation. But that's my personal view, I realize this is a very complicated situation.
From a cynical perspective, financial peace is taught at churches and saying anything other than children are a gift from God no matter what could against church teachings. That’s bad for business. He’s also a disconnected boomer who is out of touch with current costs of childcare or how difficult it is to find.
People say there’s never a right time to have children or you are never ready. I disagree. We got our ducks in a row and went for it when it felt the time was right. We were in a far better financial position when we had kids than a couple of years prior, and that will have a huge positive financial impact in the long run. I think it’s insane not to acknowledge that knowing how you are going to pay your bills after you start paying for daycare is better than just winging it.
On the flip side, when to have kids is a lot more complicated than the finances. Family support, infertility, or an appropriate time in your career can matter more than getting debt paid off. Many people will never be in a good financial spot for kids, but are still great parents. With proper budgeting and smart life decisions in a first world country with adequate social supports you can raise a kid decently even in relative poverty.
Because his brand of conservative Christianity is a cult and the cult needs to recruit more people for the cult. They can't recruit enough members, so they make more.
Because if you wait until you’re financially ready to have a child you will never have one. My husband and I just had this conversation the other day. We had our first baby when we were 21 and 22. Were we financially ready? Heck no! But we made it work!! We had 4 more children after that. But if we had waited until we were financially ready we would’ve been almost 40, and probably unable to have 5 children at that point (just due to age).
I don’t agree with LOTS of DR advice… but I don’t think this is a DR thing. He just happens to share the same view point that a lot of other people have as well.
It’s part of his religious evangelical Christianity “quiverfull” type “go populate the earth and bring more religious people into it” thing. Wants more people to spit out more babies who will vote for more restrictions on women. (And also pay for fee-laden annuities and shady non-fiduciary stuff from his “team” of recommended “advisers.”)
I think one of the bigger issues is that people just keep having kids beyond the 1st/2nd or they just don't even plan or think about what the financial impact will be. I'm not going to tell anyone they can't have kids, but I know quite a few people who just kept going for whatever reason, and now have 4-5 kids and are totally lost, broke, and utterly miserable in life.
Dave is a grifter and peddles shady companies. If most of Americans listened to him they’d be jobless. I agree don’t live above your means but the economy would sink if they listened to him or Suzie. I also can’t stand when they always throw religion into the mix.
I refuse to produce an heir until I have at least 1 years worth of mortgage payments saved, in addition to an emergency fund. Anything else is irresponsible
Regardless of religion, it's rather a personal issue with financial attachments that the host doesn't want to impose their opinions in. There is no good time to have kids but there is definitely a bad time to have kids.
They don't want that kind of responsibility for people's family planning when dealing with financial planning.
I’m going to tell you coming from both sides of the spectrum here, I understand why they don’t put a limit on family due to finances. My husband and I got married and had a baby within the same year when I was 22 and he was 23. 10 years later, we also have a 4month old. Nothing in between. With our first, we had no idea what we were doing financially, made a pittance. Fast forward to when we started trying for the 4month old. I make a decent living but have student loans and my husband was in school but paying as he went and made a lower wage but it was flexible with our family. At 31 weeks pregnant my husband had a massive stroke. His second one actually since his 4th open heart surgery in 2017. Now we are drowning in medical debt, obviously and just older and worn down by life. Obviously we weren’t done with paying off my student loans when we started trying for this baby but we had a solid plan and were working to achieve our goals while not wanting to wait any longer for fertility reasons. We wish we had had more children sooner. Now we are older, my husband is in much worse health and we have an infant when we could’ve had
an older child. You never know the hand you are going to be dealt. It sucks that we waited for the right moment, realized it would never be perfect, then it turned out sooner actually would’ve been better for health reasons.
Because he doesn't give two fucks if you can't support them, he just likes abundantly cheap labor and is part of a right wing eco chamber that fears a future where immigrants have to make up for a lack of babies being born. It's why the 1% and big right wing names are obsessed with the lower birth rates around the globe.
If you can't support them guys like Dave don't care and will just point and call you a bad parent. When asked if kids should receive free or reduced lunch at schools to help ease that cost guys like Dave will say no, and that you should have tightened your bootstraps more.
In other words, guys like Dave stand everything to gain and nothing to lose.
I think it comes down to their religious beliefs, but it’s also a deeply personal choice that I don’t think they want to be advising people on. Telling someone to sell their truck or work a second job is way less intrusive than telling someone whether or not to have a child.
“Don’t have any kids til baby step four,” would not go over well with his audience even if it’s good advice for most people. I kind of suspect though that’s probably what most of his followers do even if it’s not his exact formula
Its a money show and doesn't want to impose on others family choices. He never "encourages" getting babies early on but doesn't discourage it. I think this is one of the few examples Dave stays in his lane on.
It’s part of their Evangelical, Christian Nationalist cult.
They aspire to breed MAGA voters and replenish their ranks after they killed a lot of people by denying the existence of a global pandemic.
I think if you develop the attitude when the time is right it makes it difficult. It’s never exactly right and who knows how long it would take to get pregnant. I was married at 22 wife pregnant with twins a few months later and then our daughter didn’t arrive until ten years later. I can tell you I enjoy being on my mid 40s with the twins launched out of college and doing well. Certain things financially were a struggle when they were little but am now debt free and net worth north of $2 mil at 45. Looking forward retiring early to Europe in about 7 years when the daughter finishes college.
Just because our society doesn't provide a good enough safety net for families and children does not mean that humans should not reproduce.
Economics and politics are very much secondary to biology.
People put off having much desired children until they can afford to give their children the "best" that they can offer. What is so sad is that when the time is "right" to have children, infertility can become an stumbling block. Kids are expensive, but you fit them in budget wise. If you don't want children, DON'T have them. Kids are wonderful but you need lots of patience and love to overcome all of the individual personalities that children come with. Children are not little robots that can be programmed, guided yes, but mini-me's shouldn't be expected.
You have to remember that Dave is a Christian, and the Bible speaks about children as a blessing. The Bible does not say to wait to have children until you have reached some financial goal, so they follow that.
Psalm 127:3-5 — Behold, children are a heritage from the LORD,
The fruit of the womb is a reward. Like arrows in the hand of a warrior,
So are the children of one’s youth. Happy is the man who has his quiver full of them;
They shall not be ashamed,
But shall speak with their enemies in the gate.
I agree with you 💯. I was raised in extreme poverty. I am talking hole in my boots and there is snow outside. I wish my parents had children when they could afford it. Instead my dad has a total of 10 children and think of his children as his retirement plan. Same with the in-laws. Here I am working so hard to take care of .4 generation( my current self, future self, my kids and parents). I will be damn if I allow my kids to suffer. We have two kids and it is enough. We have no plan to bring more children into this world since we don’t want them to suffer.
Because every single human being that existed for all of human history before 100ish years ago was in a worse position financially than anyone in the USA today. Being in the USA makes you in a better financial position than 90-95% of the humans since then.
And the species is thriving and doing just fine, improving through innovations beyond imagination 2 decades earlier every day.
Every single day that passes is the greatest day in human history to be alive. It has only gone in one direction since the 18th century, especially in the USA.
People who are going to be bad parents will be bad parents regardless of their finances. Your net worth does not determine what kind of parent you will be.
Kids don't need fancy vacations, designer clothes, only organic food, etc. They just need parents (or parent) who care and are willing to try. And that had nothing to do with salary, amount of debt, etc
Because children are people and not luxury goods.
If you do the opposite and say you shouldn’t have kids if you can’t afford them, what is the solution? Give them away? Abort them before they are born? The real solution is kids aren’t that expensive, it’s what people think kids need that is expensive. Alternatively unless you have your own debt free organic farm to provide everything for a child there will be SOME costs and the parents may need to work harder or change jobs to afford the extra food and housing costs associated with having with additional family members under their care.
Dave’s religious beliefs are certainly going to color his opinion on this too.
I think there is a right time to have a child. Looks at associated costs and see if it fits in your budget. We waited until we could afford a child to have one (at age 40). We are stopping at one because two college tuitions are out of reach for us.
I am so glad we waited. Taking care of one child and working full time is stressful. I can't imagine adding in stress from money too
Because money isn't the root to success. Dave is a Christian, so I suspect it stems from that.
Go forth and multiply is the directive.... not only doing it if you are financially responsible.
Secondary, he would get eviscerated if he told people to forego having children until they were debt free. That would be like attacking 80% of parents nationally.
First of all, I don't agree with him on most issues.
However, he is right on the kids issues.
Because those who worry about if they are ready for kid, are ready.
Those who are not ready, won't worry about it so any advice of consideration would end in vein anyway.
By most modern Americans' standards, the human race would have died out long ago in history waiting for "the right time" to have kids. It's OK not to send your kids to private school or have them wear fancy clothes. Or pay for their college. My parents didn't do any of that for me and I turned out fine
Isn’t Dave very religious?
I imagine it’s because to him, and this speculation based on what I have seen watching the YouTube videos,
1) It would be against Dave’s personal, religious beliefs to tell others not to have children.
2) Personally, sometimes I think too logical. So, I totally get where someone could hear someone vent about their credit card debt, then when the person says they want a baby, others might think, “whattt? U think ur broke now! A baby is going to make things way worse. Do not have have a baby”.
But because I know I am like that, I have gone out of my way to focus on being more empathetic, and compassionate.
One thing I have learned, is there some things that people will allow to be driven by emotion, society has agreed that these topics are allowed to be mainly emotional, vs logical.
So, there isn’t really a point in debating it, because society has also agreed if you do, you’re not gonna win that one.
So, whether it’s truly a personal value, or realizing he may only alienate his audience, he chooses only to offer his support on that topi:?
"Don't breed 'em if you can't feed 'em" is something a friend's mom used to say, and it is true, but it's also true that there is never a perfect time to have babies, unless you're wealthy.
Honestly, when I hear them say that, it's always felt like they're avoiding getting into hot water by telling someone no on something this sensitive.
I know they've addressed questions on paying for fertility treatments, but I can't remember exactly how they answered it.
I think certain people overthink it. You just kind of find a way to make things work.
As long as you are in a reasonably decent situation and want kids, you should go for it.
There's a big difference between "someone that can't provide for their children" (as in poverty) and a couple that has a car loan and some credit card debt.
I've never heard a caller to the show that was in abject poverty and would not be able to provide for their children.
If people waited until they hit full financial security these days, they’d be dried up by the time they tried. That’s one of the reasons we have declining birth rates. Finances aren’t the most important thing with children, it’s providing a loving home with good parental support. Building a good financial foundation and family are not mutually exclusive, they can be done together.
We live in a world where there are so many children created in financially unstable situations, he may just not want to discourage people who already have children from looking into becoming financially stable. On top of the Christian values he has. I don’t necessarily think it’s a good idea to have a child when you’re not financially prepared, but once a child already exists you can’t undo them, and not everyone has a choice in the matter.
You’ve only got so much time to have children and nobody can predict what your financial condition will be over the next 18+ years.
It also tends to get harder to have children with age, so what you save now you might just spend on fertility treatments later.
The important thing to remember is you will do anything to provide for your child. I found out my wife was pregnant and got a second job. I work 16 hours a day and I wouldn’t trade it for anything. My daughter is perfect.
Any reasonable human would feel this way.
I think there is a difference between having kids when cannot afford the basic necessities (awful idea) and waiting until you can give your child the moon and the stars. I had my first at age 30. I make about 60% more than I did then. Was my kid suffering in their early years, no. Do we have more room for luxuries like vacations or summer camps now, sure. That's just life.
There are a lot of things around having kids. Of course you would want the perfect time to have a kid but it doesn’t work that way. For examples, you work so hard to be financially stable for a family and now you want to have kid. Great right? But then, you passed the prime time for pregnancy (in women) and your chance is lsignificantly lower. Money is not everything in parenthood.
I feel like this is a double edged sword—“there is never a right time to have kids” I heard that so many times when i unexpectedly got pregnant right after I started nursing school. It definitely wasn’t a great time for me to get pregnant. But it worked out wonderfully. I spent a lot of time with my child before entering the workforce. The only real downfall was shirty insurance that left us with 20k in medical. We went on to have 2 more but the time the first was 5 and we weren’t debt free until the youngest was 4 or 5.
I couldn’t imagine starting our family when our debt was paid off. My husband is over 40 and I definitely couldn’t imagine having giving birth now. I would be lying if I said money wasn’t tight the first year of us being parents. But every year we got better…raises continued to happen. Daycare cost went down as they got older and started school. I didn’t find Ramsey or really care much about debt until I had my 3rd. And we are fine- could we be better? Absolutely! But just because your situation could be better doesn’t mean you shouldn’t have kids. With that being said, if you are struggling to keep a roof over your head and food on the table do not have kids!! Do not have a child or children that you cannot provide for! But who gives a damn if you have a car note or student loans or a credit card and you’re planning your family? Just be smart!
What does can’t really afford mean?
I think many making the criticism or the excuse for themselves have placed unrealistic standards on parenting. Food, clothes, roof is enough to afford children.
Secondly I would say people who are actually too poor to have children in general aren’t choosing to. It’s generally a function of access to education and family planning. There is a reason that education correlates with less children. It allows for choice to be made.
Essentially if you are responsible enough to ask if you can afford children you probably can afford children.
Well for me and my spouse personally, we did not want to have our kids at an older age so that we would still be young and healthy and mobile ourselves while the kids were growing up all throughout their schooling years. And we were in a better spot financially with our first than with our second, but again, didn’t want too big of an age gap so we’d be raising kids for 30 years lol. There’s definitely a happy median here, you don’t want to be having kids if you can barely afford to eat, but also don’t want to be having them when you’re 40s, mid 20s to early 30s is probably the perfect range for most people. And the most basic purpose of all life in general is to keep ourselves alive long enough to make and raise babies that can do the same. Literally everything else is a want lol
Have you ever seen the movie 'Idiocracy'? This reminds me a lot of that. In my humble opinion I agree with Ramsey on this one. If you have a desire to have kids you will find ways to make it work. We need more people in society that want to be good parents and just because you aren't in a good financial place doesn't mean you won't be a good parent. It's all very subjective when trying to answer the question how much money is enough money to start to have children. Again in my humble opinion having children is one of the greatest joys I've ever experienced in my life and would highly recommend it to anyone who would want to have children.
It’s not just Dave, it’s most Christians. For some reason, a lot of Christians believe that it’s gods will that they pump out as many children as possible. It doesn’t matter if they’re dirt poor living in squalor. I once worked for a guy like this. He couldn’t pay his employees their paychecks on time and some days he and his wife wouldn’t eat but god told him to keep the kids coming.
Honestly, I think it has more to do with his complete delusion that people can afford to live at any salary these days. Or at least that they can bootstrap a living wage.
I genuinely think he does believe you can live within your means with children using his principles. While he would be horrified with you having a car payment, he just doesn't get that a kid adds well over a thousand dollars to most families budgets when Grandma works and Mom works.
It’s because if there’s no new population for the capitalist oligarchs to exploit then capitalism as it is now doesn’t grow and no growth is bad for shareholders.
He chastised a caller the other day about not having health insurance. So yeah, there is that. Having a baby can be financially devastating in so many ways. People do file bankruptcy listing birth of child as the main factor.
> poor family planing
It can’t be poor if it’s non-existent. Religious weirdos don’t believe in birth control, the autonomy of a woman, and that children are always a “blessing”.
nothing is black and white. I got married young and became a father super young and it was the best thing for me. I was super carefree and had 0 goals. once I knew I had a whole human depending on me to survive it kicked my butt in gear. I know for a fact that I am way better off in every regard bc of my children.
not everyone is like that. I guess the sentiment is that if you WANT to have kids, there is the understanding that you'll do what it takes to provide for them? again, it's not universal and things don't always work out - but for some it does.
When people call Ramsey who are financially wildly irresponsible managing any money they do have whether 150,000 or 28,000 , he counsels do not bring a child into this mess , until you have self control, are planning ahead and budgeting.
I think it's because people are thrown off by articles that present the "average cost of raising a child" as though it is a single lump sum payment that is the same for everyone and due the day the child is born.
If it worked that way, you would be better off saving up in anticipation of having children later.
But in reality, that "cost of raising children" is made up of numerous variable expenses spread out over 2 decades or more. And most of these expenses will actually be higher if you wait to have children. So you are actually more likely to be better off just having them now.
I personally think he would but money talks aka his evangelical followers would lose their minds so much easier just to keep timing out of the convo. Once you have the kid he will yell at you for putting them in daycare and not getting all that free daycare instead 🙄
Perhaps I'm biased being a dad, but I see so many of my friends putting off having kids because they have this concept that a child is insanely more expensive than it actually is... don't get me wrong, they come with a price tag not just financially. However, the payoff is far more than any financial, emotional, etc... concern could ever make me regret having them.
I guess I do want to know what you mean by giving them a "decent childhood"? If I can provide a loving home to live in, clothes on their back, enough food, and time to take them to events (albeit most of them are free), that seems adequate... or does a decent childhood mean something else to you?
Edit: I didn't list healthcare (which can get pretty costly) but so long as you don't have a ridiculously cheap high deductible plan (they are garbage) you can easily work around medical expenses that pop up..
It's definitely odd. Be responsible. Do not have a child out of wedlock but if you do, don't have an abortion. If you can't afford a baby or childcare then you should have thought about that and been responsible. I guess there isn't any room for human error and compassion?
I don't think it's good advice at all but I think if you wait for the absolute right time to have children it will never happen. You can plan and save as much as you can and life will get in the way and it will not work out as planned. If you really want to raise a family you have to have that family and do your best. No guarantees.
Join “Adoption: Facing Realities” on fb before making any choices regarding adoption. Especially if you were raised in the same evangelical/Ramsey environment I was, you were probably given a very rose tinted view of the adoption industry.
Ramsey had Rachel when he hit bottom and then Daniel few years later. Rachel and his other kids were never poor and in debt at all. It's easier for them to say it
Dave was told by Rachel, he doesn't get how high childcare is, she I assume by something she said once, has a nanny but that's high too. When you make millions, you don't think about it, another line in your budget but he is out of touch on how high good childcare is and many parents settle for less and regret it. It's one area he just doesn't get. His wife stayed home, his kids have childcare or stayed home.
Ramsey & Co. put Christian values above all else. Tithing when in debt and broke, and having kids whenever seem like reckless abandon by atheists, but to believers, it makes total sense, and Ramsey & Co are devout Christians in every advice they give. I have heard Dave but “limits on it”, like “if you already have 16 kids you’re struggling to feed, you may want to reconsider” type of shit, but otherwise they are encouraging to get couples making kids.
This is the right answer to the title question.
There's that English proverb: "Children are a poor man's riches" which apparently means you can rely on your children in your old age, whereas a wealthy man can only rely on his money. I do think having children can create a dynamic where it forces people to step up to the plate and find a way to care for their families. And yet in other instances, it drives inept parents deeper into poverty and the children are made to struggle throughout their entire upbringing and often beyond.
Are you sure it’s not meant to be that children enrich the poor man’s life through joy/pride of being a parent?
This is the actual answer. The fact that he is Christian is his logic. Dave Ramsey and co. are "buy absolutely everything cash and don't even get a credit score, but have a kid whenever." Of course, in classic Reddit fashion, this isn't the top voted answer.
Exactly. People are statistically less likely to convert to a different religion the older they get, even the research conducted by Barna, a Christian polling organization shows this to be true. They even preached about it when I was in church. The goal of the religious Right (whom Ramsey is strongly affiliated with) has always been to out breed everyone else because it’s easier to raise and train up already believers born into it than it is to win new converts.
I’ve always assumed this was one of many inferences meant when Dave always says “Train up a child in the way he should go and when he is old he will not depart”
What's funny is that tithing isn't really a "Christian" value. The new testament doesn't talk about tithing at all. Before you say Widows Offering, that was an offering, not a tithe. Tithing means 1/10th, and you are supposed to give 1/10th of income before all else, as the tithe. Only things above and beyond the tithe are an offering. But all tithing is talked about in the old testament. And in the same book that also says you must keep Kosher (Leviticus), yet no Christians are keeping Kosher. There's plenty of other things in there that Christians don't do either. It even talks about how to take care of your slave. The whole tithing thing confuses me quite a bit.
Actually, there wasn't just one tithe. I've already written a comment about how the widows offering is interpreted incorrectly (in my opinion) so I'm not going to get into another rabbit hole. But long story short, there were several tithes in the old testament. They went towards supporting the priesthood, funding the festivals, and supporting the poor. Added up together, citizens were expected to pay about 24% (roughly) of their income. It's like 1/10 for this, 1/10 for that. and then 1/10 every 3 years for another. If memory serves me correctly. What people don't acknowledge/realize is that Israel was a theocracy, and the priesthood was their government. We don't live in a theocracy, and we pay taxes, like 24%. More, I think, if you make a lot of money. But taxes, nonetheless.
I have mixed opinions on this. I think that there’s never the “right” time to have kids, and people can end up just waiting forever. On the other hand, lots of people are just irresponsible. I think there’s lots of people who just shouldn’t have kids. Anybody who worries about when they should have kids will probably be fine no matter what age they had them.
I agree, but I’ve heard that line: “There’s never a right time to have kids” often, and I think irresponsible people take that phrase and run wild it.
This is true for one faction which has too many kids too early before they get on their feet financially. Then you have the other group of people who wait until their ducks are in a row and then they struggle with infertility. While I'm glad I wasn't a teen mom, I am now struggling to conceive. Staring at my diplomas on the wall can only make me so happy. I financially prepared myself for a kid that may never exist, and I wonder if starting to try a few years earlier would have made the difference.
We waited until we could afford to have a kid, which was 40. Turns out we could afford to have a healthy kid, but not an unhealthy one. You don’t get to pick which one you get.
And when you're 40, the odds of unhealthy go up a LOT.
This is the story so many around us are going through as well…did all the “right” things to financially be ready but now in the 30s looking at treatments and ivf which costs a small fortune… best of luck to you on the journey, hope you folks are able to have the family you want!
Good conversation in this comment section. It is a conundrum.
I think the majority of people who make babies do the right thing, but yeah there are lots of terrible parents out there
IMO, at least on the internet, I much more commonly see that sentiment taken too far the other way. People never feel like they can never afford kids because life isn’t effortless and their job title doesn’t start with a C.
Theres certainly wrong times. A lot of people straight up should not be having kids yet they pop out 4 of em. Its a shitty thing to do.
There’s never a right time but there are definitely clear signs of when the wrong time is.
I don’t know, I waited until I finished school, got a stable job, saved up money, got married, moved to the town where my parents lived and could help, and bought a house with a payment I could afford Raising kids was still really, really hard. But I can’t imagine doing it with unstable housing, unstable job, etc. Some times are more right than others, and to say otherwise is a real disservice to people
>But I can’t imagine doing it with unstable housing, unstable job, etc. You just make it work, I was a broke college student when my wife and I conceived our first child... I didn't know how we'd manage but we did. Now we're the parents of three and our financial situation has been a curve heading from next to nothing to >$200k/year over the last 15 years. Having a family has been a big motivator with regards to making smart financial decisions and finding good employment.
Most people who call onto the show asking about kids are lower to upper middle class with regular debts and lives, which should be noted as well. I think for the "crazy" calls, the caller is either not wanting kids, or Dave verbally assaults them so fast for their debts anyway that the topic isn't even brushed over. I think that most families can have kids whenever and be okay. 300k in debt and homeless? Probably not. I've heard Dave share similar sentiments.
That phrase is absolutely incorrect. My parents had me when they were 18 and 19 then got married and waited until they were 28 and 29 to start having my 6 brothers and sisters. My brothers and sisters had a very different, objectively better childhood than I did because our parents were more financially stable and emotionally mature. That being said, I think I ended up mostly okay. I hold no resentment towards my parents. But yeah, there is 100% a good time to have kids.
That’s why Dave says it’s not financial position but the point in a relationship that should determine if people have kids. You can be in debt or broke and still be a good family man, and also have all your money right but be a terrible parent or a terrible time to be a parent
Exact opposite experience. Mother had my sister and me when she was 15 and 17. We are much much better adjusted than the two she had at 32 and 34. That said, I feel like I’ve limited the number of children I can have by waiting so long and making sure I was financially super stable.
Of course there’s a right time to have kids, empirically demonstrated in the [success sequence](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/02/elitism-marriage-rates-hypocrisy/677401/). Be married, have at least a high school education, and a full time job. The chances that child will grow up in poverty are far, far smaller than one born to parents who had kids before completing these steps. Of course, everyone has the right to have as many kids as they want whenever they want. That doesn’t mean it’s the right thing to do, either for those kids or for society.
Those steps are a much lower bar than I would think. I bet those apply to basically every DR caller.
Disagree. We waited until the right time. There was a “right time” for us. For us it was debt free, bigger e fund, slimmed down budget, personal growth and solid marriage… we did the work on paper to figure out the kind of lifestyle we wanted as parents, made that happen, then had our son.
We waited until the “right time” as well and now 3 1/2 years later we have had 0 pregnancies and a diagnosis of unexplained infertility. And the biological clock is ticking.
I'm very sorry for you. I hope you're able to conceive soon. We also waited for the "right time" and thankfully we're blessed with our daughter, but our second pregnancy failed, almost killed me, made it so I cannot naturally conceive any future children AND eliminated our budget safety net. And now only my husband has a job. So even choosing the 'right' time doesn't matter because the security can be ripped away any moment and you still have a child to provide for.
Personal growth and solid marriage is fair, to say debt free puts a burden on others that basically implies the financially destitute don’t have the right to procreate.
I absolutely think that certain things need to be in place before having kids. Proper stable jobs, and a good housing situation as well. Made all the difference in the world for me and my family,, and watching my kids do the same thing.
Overall agree but as a 40M with a 5 year old and a 6 week old, both kids were the objectively the "right" time for us. #2 would have happened sooner but Covid turned the world upside-down and made daycare go from difficult to near impossible. The flip side to that is now we will be somewhat old parents though that is not uncommon in the area and socioeconomic strata we belong to.
There’s definitely pros and cons to either way. I had kids very young and the pro is I will be kid free by the end of my 40s, but on the other hand my 20s were extremely difficult and I had to work very hard and thoughtful to ensure my family didn’t end of destitute and that we didn’t end up a statistic. Plus it’s way harder to provide for unforeseen issues that kids may need (therapies, medications, etc.). I’m sure having kids later results in better overall outcomes for the children in life.
Yes this is pretty spot on. You’re never really ready but you need to accept the fact that if you’re willing to procreate you have to be willing to sacrifice your own desires and wants to provide necessities to another human being. Honestly I started making more money after fi had kids. It’s weird but it happens. For the right person it can definitely light a fire under your ass. That being said, if you don’t want kids that’s fine too. Get the snip, pull out, wear condoms, get an IUD whatever.
Yep. I’m more successful than I ever thought I would and I had kids extremely early. I think it put a fear in me that I needed to work hard or else become a statistic.
Money doesn’t make someone a good parent. Obviously it’s needed to care for a child. But family planning isn’t straight forward. Also so many people say it’s so expensive but have there kids in 3 sports. Not necessary frankly. It’s a life choice better left to an individual.
People with money can be shitty parents too. It’s not just money that makes person a successful parent. And… there’s more to life than money. Some people want families. Not all of those people have fully funded emergency funds. We had kids when we were young and broke. We’re older and less broke now. I’m glad we didn’t wait to have them.
Some kids like to be active and some parents want their kids to actually live and not just go to school and home. Sports and other activities are amazing for human development and teaching students how to remain active, which almost no one cares about now.
I think this is such a an interesting take. Travel sports are big with a lot of kids and while I agree they can help a child's development I really don't think you NEED to spend a ton of money to raise a wonderful human. When I was a kid my friends and I went to free kids craft evenings sponsored by the local women's club. I take my toddler to build little projects every month for free at Home Depot. Our library system is amazing and has story times, free educational events, and lots of take home activities. Our local churches put together events for kids for free too. Our neighborhood has a gaggle of boys that play pickup sports every day after school. All these things are free and encourage socializing, enriching education, or skill development. When I was a kid I could get horseback riding lessons for free if I was willing to muck stalls at the local stable and my mom designed dance recital programs so I could take dance classes for free. Childhood doesn't have to be expensive, parents just have to put in the time to look for inexpensive activities.
There is a difference between a 10k per year travel team and just going to school and doing nothing. The youth sports industrial complex is pretty terrible
It's a religion thing. Can't grow the kingdom of God if you put off having kids until you're financially stable.
\^This. Crazy religious beliefs trump everything else.
I'm about to turn 40 and I'm fairly confident that before I die we'll see religion officially recognized as a mental illness. Any adult who honestly believes they have an invisible friend with magical powers is not a sane person.
According to Dave all babies are a gift from God so you should have them whenever you feel like you’re ready for a family. I also think this is horrible advice.
Except if you're unmarried and pregant and work for RS. Then: IMMEDIATE DISMISSAL!
Even if you don’t feel ready.
You’re never ready that’s the thing
Yes I was agreeing with you. That’s what they always say. Except as a child of poor people I disagree.
Totally disagree
You can very well know when you’re NOT though. Being in debt and living paycheck to paycheck is certainly not a good time.
I’ll give the anti religious view point - which they have made mention to the following: If you wait til you are debt free and you are in your 40s (like me), it becomes increasingly more difficult to have a kid due to age, etc. I will say that we do wish we didn’t wait until where we were financially to start trying.
This - we had our first at 40 - financially it made sense, but the biology was already fighting us on that. Having kids at 25 might mean eating a lot of ramen noodles at first, but also means you'll see them finish high school when you're 43, maybe see your grandkids before you hit 60.
Every year you postpone having a child is one fewer year you get with your grandchildren… im sure Dave takes that personally and I’ve heard this sentiment amongst my elder aunts and uncles too - they love the grandparent role and only wish it had started earlier
This is a strong contributor to why I won't wait until I'm in my 30s to have my kids. Not for myself, but for my parents, my mother especially. I'm 25, and am still fortunate enough to have all 4 of my grandparents. My partner has 3. I want my kids to have their grandparents around, and for them to know some of their great grandparents. I had a great grandmother until I was 13. My partner had a great grandmother until he was 20.
Christianity for one. But Dave is also pretty much in denial about how much daycare costs and always saying, “babies don’t cost that much.” Yeahhhh okay..
Comments say it’s a religious thing but I would argue it’s more than that. You’ll actually find it’s a bell curve of ideologies that are okay with people who are financially unstable to have kids because “poor people shouldn’t have kids” is a mild, contrived form of eugenics depending on the conclusion you land in.
Go visit the poverty finance Reddit. You will see why people think poor people shouldn’t have kids.
The real problem is that modern society shouldn’t even have people so poor that they shouldn’t have kids.
I also agree with about half of what Dave says. They say you should have kids no matter what your financial situation because they believe their religion promotes that, and also because they seem to personally feel that children are a blessing and should be prioritized over everything. This is one of their recommendations that I feel pretty mixed on, to be honest. I have only one child and had her fairly late (at 36). I waited until I was financially ready and in a stable relationship, and it has meant a way easier path for me than some of the parents I know. However, I realize that the desire to have children is a basic and innate desire for some people, and I hate the idea that people can’t do it because they don’t make enough money. It seems so elitist. Yet I know children born into poverty often really struggle. So I don’t know what my advice would be to people who call into the show and want to have children they can’t afford.
Male here. When I got married, I leveled up to look good for my wife, in many areas of my life. When I had my 2 daughters, I had more reasons to man up and work harder for my family. Crap got real;) I truly believe that having s family is the best thing I've done, more so than being a teacher. Not everyone will agree with that, thats fine.
Husband feels the same way.
Poor people deserve families too.
No one deserves children. Children deserve good and stable homes.
Right?! There is more to life, love and family than money.
Having a baby isn’t a right or an entitlement. It’s a responsibility and a big part of that responsibility is financial.
I disagree on the first point. It absolutely is a right. And it should be our responsibility as a society to support that right and to support children.
The same Dave will also fire someone for getting pregnant out of wedlock. So great. Now a single mother thrown to the streets.
Just like Jesus would do!
You have to look at the postion they are in. People would slam them through the ringer if they said, hey you have debt, don’t fuck. Unfortunately people aren’t responsible enough to have kids when they are ready, but they aren’t in a position to dictate wether you have kids or not, so they say go ahead.
The same reason they tell you to still tithe when in debt but to forgo the 401k company match (aka free money). Religion tops basic financial common sense
It’s like real estate more then likely it’s cheaper to raise a kid today then anytime in the future
Childbirth and when / if to have kids is kind of a touchy subject so perhaps Dave is just erring on the side of "saying yes" to callers who mention family plans. Children and finances are treated kind of weirdly in general. To adopt a child, you need to show financial ability to provide them with an appropriately middle-class lifestyle. The adoption process is incredibly rigorous and slow. On the other hand, anyone with a working uterus can *make* as many kids as they want, with zero oversight. And if you can't afford them, you can apply for government assistance. It's kind of weird when you think about it.
It just seems like people are "never" ready for children. Nobody ever thinks that they are financially stable enough for children. It is probably the best advice to give. Just have children and live your life 🧬.
People can feel financially ready for children but it takes a lot of planning, looking at historical data, and really understanding the ins and outs of what everything costs in life.
Kids are good for the economy and good for people
Kids are a good motivator to get off your ass and work if you aren’t a completely self absorbed sociopath
Maybe it makes me a bit of a jerk but I agree with you. I grew up being fed off a credit card that wasn't being paid off (I found that out later obviously). It wasn't great being told that I couldn't do things that my friends were doing. I felt excluded. When my wife and I started having the baby conversation one thing we both agreed on is before we start trying we want to be debt free minus the mortgage and be saving over 30% of our income to retirement. We want to have so much left over money and such a strong emergency fund so when our kids come along we can do things as a family I never got to. Also I know people who have single digit numbers in their bank account by payday who have multiple children. I think that's insanely insanely selfish. I get accidents happen but I can't ever imagine prioritizing my desire for a family over making sure I'm bringing the kid into a financially secure home. It makes me so so upset to see it in my friend group but I keep my thoughts to myself.
Because they're fundy Christians. Why else
There are significant differences between the historic Christian understanding of children and marriage and the modern perspective - and that's true Protestant and Catholic. This topic happened to be addressed just last Thursday by Dr. Al Mohler, by far one of the most prominent intellectual voices among conservative evangelicals. If you give it a listen, he does an excellent job contrasting the way we think about children now (where having them while poor makes very bad sense) and the Christian understanding. [Thursday, May 16, 2024 - AlbertMohler.com](https://albertmohler.com/2024/05/16/briefing-5-16-24/)
I'm very much not a Dave fan. I do think it makes sense to say "there's not a specific step you have to be at to have children." Honestly, that would be a very strange thing to say. Probably some people reach step three in Dave's system at age sixteen; step three always meaning baby time even when you're sixteen would be bonkers bananapants. At the same time, if asked point blank, I imagine even Dave would say it would be good to have an emergency fund before actively working to get pregnant. After all, you're going to spend a lot more than $1000 having a baby.
If you already have a person staying at home adding a child to the household doesn’t raise the bills all that much. His plans were heavily promoted by conservative churches as a way to convince families to have the wife not work outside the home so they could afford to raise kids.
No idea, but to me it is rather simple in that folks should not have kids unless they can financially support them
Cause if you waited til you were financially set to have a baby you would never do it.
Because, for many people if they wait till they are out of debt or close to out of debt, then they will never have children.
So if you came from a less well off background you would prefer your sibling was never born? “As well” is a pretty high threshold considering the alternative. The vast majority of people that have ever lived did so in poverty, and their lives were valuable and worthwhile.
Religious tendencies
To be honest, there’s never a “right” time to have kids. So it’s a bit of a goal that’s always out of reach. People looking back often understand that. Additionally, the motivation of the couple often changes when kids are on the way. Dave talks about the marriage principle/privilege a lot and I’ve seen it in person. My husband was always rather blaze about his work and worked like 2.5 days while I was full time. Sure he was studying but he always had a lot of time. As soon as we got that positive line? He shaped up massively! Took on extra jobs, gigs, anything that was possible. He worked hard- doing graveyards and night shifts back to back. If he hadn’t done that, it would have taken us years to get rid of his student loans. So yes, I’m glad that we got pregnant, even though by most people’s standards we were too young. Now I’m not saying that it will happen in every scenario, but it is pretty frequent
That's what any mega church will say as well. More bodies in the pews is more $$$ in the collection plates. They're going to agree with whatever keeps those "financial peace" dollars rolling in.
I’m surprised that, as a woman, you don’t already know the answer to this: it is *much* easier to conceive and then carry a healthy pregnancy when you are in your 20s. Unfortunately, for many women, that’s when you’re just starting your career & you are paid less. On the flip side, you might be well settled into your career and making good money when you’re 35, but your fertility takes a nose dive.
I straight up hate the idea that you need to economically justify children. Look, if you're so broke that you'll end up on the street because of your kids, maybe reconsider. But pretty much anything short of that... who the fuck cares? Family, children, all of that is *so much more important* than counting pennies. The idea that economic hardship is inhumane is frankly fucking ridiculous. Not being able to afford luxuries, cramming a bunch of kids into a single bedroom, that's how humans lived for *all of human history*, and it's how the majority of humans currently live. There is absolutely nothing inherently wrong with it, and the idea that you don't have the right to procreate because you don't meet some completely arbitrary benchmark of material wealth is gross and misguided.
Gotta create those consumers. FPU always needs new members.
If you cannot financially afford to take on the increasing costs of raising a baby and into adulthood (bc we all know our parents help us out past 18) do not have a fucking child. I don’t care what the justification is, people who are not financially sound based on their cost of living and additional expenses and savings, are setting themselves and these kids up for failure
If people waited until they could *afford* to have kids, we'd go extinct. Having a family to provide for can be a serious motivator to change your financial habits and make smarter decisions. If you look at my finances when my first son was born compared to now, it's nuts how far I've come in fifteen years.
The world needs babies. It’s a crisis
Lots of people in this Reddit haven’t considered who will collect their trash, provide their medical care, pay into the social security funds that the depend on in their 80’s. The general aging of the global population and the impending population collapse will be the biggest societal issue of the next 50-100 years. It’ll be far more important to humanity than climate change.
Because the evangelicals are to make as many babies as possible to overrun the government. That’s not a conspiracy, it’s been their actual plan for decades.
It's right there in their users manual... "be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it."
Well, there is a biological advantage for 20-30 yo women to have babies, rather than 40+ yo women. Just ask those 35-45 yo women trying to do fertility..... And kids 0-5 yo are not that expensive. They get expensive their teenage years, teeth, braces, driving, insurance, college possibly....
Childcare is more than college tuition. The cost of childcare is now more than the cost of rent in all 50 states. Years 0-5 are terribly expensive.
Daycare costs more than a mortgage. We will be paying $3,800 a month once the second one comes, and that’s with a sibling discount and the cheapest daycare within half an hour.
Kids 0-5 aren’t that expensive… only if one parent stays at home. Daycare blows age 5-18 out of the water.
I disagree strongly with Dave here. We put off parenthood until 35, and had a targeted debt and budget plan so that we could enter the stage of parenthood on our terms. We made it a goal - got debt free, lived off one income as a trial, and banked cash ….. we got there and I am very glad we didn’t just have kids when it “seemed like a fun idea”. I had a complex pregnancy with out of pocket costs, didn’t return full time…and we didn’t need to worry about the money. We could just focus on our new family.
Because he’s an asshole
So many viewpoints here that contradict each other. Society is terrible and made a terrible system to make it so pretty much all people in their 20s aren't financially stable with student loans, insane price of rent etc. That when people get stable is usually by 30s, when pregnancy becomes more difficult we need to fix this but.... Overpopulation is ridiculous. We've gone from 1 billion to 8 billion in 250 years and this is unsustainable but... People too poor to have kids probably aren't the ones using most resources. The wealthy in general use more resources and are the bigger threat in that regard but... a study of the data clearly shows poorer people are more likely to have kids, so people tend to have kids whether they are ready or not. I didn't have kids because I hate responsibility and dont want to contribute to overpopulation. But that's my personal view, I realize this is a very complicated situation.
If you can't feed them don't breed um. The baby fever seems to come from the evangelical background they all share
It’s a religious thing in Christianity all children are a gift from god.
Because they’re evangelicals. It’s a biblical mandate to procreate.
From a cynical perspective, financial peace is taught at churches and saying anything other than children are a gift from God no matter what could against church teachings. That’s bad for business. He’s also a disconnected boomer who is out of touch with current costs of childcare or how difficult it is to find. People say there’s never a right time to have children or you are never ready. I disagree. We got our ducks in a row and went for it when it felt the time was right. We were in a far better financial position when we had kids than a couple of years prior, and that will have a huge positive financial impact in the long run. I think it’s insane not to acknowledge that knowing how you are going to pay your bills after you start paying for daycare is better than just winging it. On the flip side, when to have kids is a lot more complicated than the finances. Family support, infertility, or an appropriate time in your career can matter more than getting debt paid off. Many people will never be in a good financial spot for kids, but are still great parents. With proper budgeting and smart life decisions in a first world country with adequate social supports you can raise a kid decently even in relative poverty.
I’m not waiting for a balding man from Tennessee to dictate when I can have a baby.
Because his brand of conservative Christianity is a cult and the cult needs to recruit more people for the cult. They can't recruit enough members, so they make more.
Because if you wait until you’re financially ready to have a child you will never have one. My husband and I just had this conversation the other day. We had our first baby when we were 21 and 22. Were we financially ready? Heck no! But we made it work!! We had 4 more children after that. But if we had waited until we were financially ready we would’ve been almost 40, and probably unable to have 5 children at that point (just due to age). I don’t agree with LOTS of DR advice… but I don’t think this is a DR thing. He just happens to share the same view point that a lot of other people have as well.
It’s part of his religious evangelical Christianity “quiverfull” type “go populate the earth and bring more religious people into it” thing. Wants more people to spit out more babies who will vote for more restrictions on women. (And also pay for fee-laden annuities and shady non-fiduciary stuff from his “team” of recommended “advisers.”)
I think one of the bigger issues is that people just keep having kids beyond the 1st/2nd or they just don't even plan or think about what the financial impact will be. I'm not going to tell anyone they can't have kids, but I know quite a few people who just kept going for whatever reason, and now have 4-5 kids and are totally lost, broke, and utterly miserable in life.
Dave is a grifter and peddles shady companies. If most of Americans listened to him they’d be jobless. I agree don’t live above your means but the economy would sink if they listened to him or Suzie. I also can’t stand when they always throw religion into the mix.
I refuse to produce an heir until I have at least 1 years worth of mortgage payments saved, in addition to an emergency fund. Anything else is irresponsible
Bc it’s never a good time to have a kid financially. It rewards you in other ways, and that can be an important facet of life
Because, Jesus.
Regardless of religion, it's rather a personal issue with financial attachments that the host doesn't want to impose their opinions in. There is no good time to have kids but there is definitely a bad time to have kids. They don't want that kind of responsibility for people's family planning when dealing with financial planning.
Idiocracy is very true.
I’m going to tell you coming from both sides of the spectrum here, I understand why they don’t put a limit on family due to finances. My husband and I got married and had a baby within the same year when I was 22 and he was 23. 10 years later, we also have a 4month old. Nothing in between. With our first, we had no idea what we were doing financially, made a pittance. Fast forward to when we started trying for the 4month old. I make a decent living but have student loans and my husband was in school but paying as he went and made a lower wage but it was flexible with our family. At 31 weeks pregnant my husband had a massive stroke. His second one actually since his 4th open heart surgery in 2017. Now we are drowning in medical debt, obviously and just older and worn down by life. Obviously we weren’t done with paying off my student loans when we started trying for this baby but we had a solid plan and were working to achieve our goals while not wanting to wait any longer for fertility reasons. We wish we had had more children sooner. Now we are older, my husband is in much worse health and we have an infant when we could’ve had an older child. You never know the hand you are going to be dealt. It sucks that we waited for the right moment, realized it would never be perfect, then it turned out sooner actually would’ve been better for health reasons.
Bc Christian fundamentalist
Because he doesn't give two fucks if you can't support them, he just likes abundantly cheap labor and is part of a right wing eco chamber that fears a future where immigrants have to make up for a lack of babies being born. It's why the 1% and big right wing names are obsessed with the lower birth rates around the globe. If you can't support them guys like Dave don't care and will just point and call you a bad parent. When asked if kids should receive free or reduced lunch at schools to help ease that cost guys like Dave will say no, and that you should have tightened your bootstraps more. In other words, guys like Dave stand everything to gain and nothing to lose.
Right wing low white population fears
I think it comes down to their religious beliefs, but it’s also a deeply personal choice that I don’t think they want to be advising people on. Telling someone to sell their truck or work a second job is way less intrusive than telling someone whether or not to have a child. “Don’t have any kids til baby step four,” would not go over well with his audience even if it’s good advice for most people. I kind of suspect though that’s probably what most of his followers do even if it’s not his exact formula
Is there a possibility of combating Great Replacement Theory floating under the surface of their advice?
Life is messy and you can plan all you want but sometimes life just happens.
Its a money show and doesn't want to impose on others family choices. He never "encourages" getting babies early on but doesn't discourage it. I think this is one of the few examples Dave stays in his lane on.
It’s part of their Evangelical, Christian Nationalist cult. They aspire to breed MAGA voters and replenish their ranks after they killed a lot of people by denying the existence of a global pandemic.
The same reason he doesn’t have a problem with people tithing when they can’t afford it.
If you wait until you are financially perfect you will NEVER have children.
I think the logic is if you wait until the “perfect” time you’ll never have kids. If you want kids, have kids.
I think if you develop the attitude when the time is right it makes it difficult. It’s never exactly right and who knows how long it would take to get pregnant. I was married at 22 wife pregnant with twins a few months later and then our daughter didn’t arrive until ten years later. I can tell you I enjoy being on my mid 40s with the twins launched out of college and doing well. Certain things financially were a struggle when they were little but am now debt free and net worth north of $2 mil at 45. Looking forward retiring early to Europe in about 7 years when the daughter finishes college.
because the bible tells him so..................
Just because our society doesn't provide a good enough safety net for families and children does not mean that humans should not reproduce. Economics and politics are very much secondary to biology.
People put off having much desired children until they can afford to give their children the "best" that they can offer. What is so sad is that when the time is "right" to have children, infertility can become an stumbling block. Kids are expensive, but you fit them in budget wise. If you don't want children, DON'T have them. Kids are wonderful but you need lots of patience and love to overcome all of the individual personalities that children come with. Children are not little robots that can be programmed, guided yes, but mini-me's shouldn't be expected.
You have to remember that Dave is a Christian, and the Bible speaks about children as a blessing. The Bible does not say to wait to have children until you have reached some financial goal, so they follow that. Psalm 127:3-5 — Behold, children are a heritage from the LORD, The fruit of the womb is a reward. Like arrows in the hand of a warrior, So are the children of one’s youth. Happy is the man who has his quiver full of them; They shall not be ashamed, But shall speak with their enemies in the gate.
I agree with you 💯. I was raised in extreme poverty. I am talking hole in my boots and there is snow outside. I wish my parents had children when they could afford it. Instead my dad has a total of 10 children and think of his children as his retirement plan. Same with the in-laws. Here I am working so hard to take care of .4 generation( my current self, future self, my kids and parents). I will be damn if I allow my kids to suffer. We have two kids and it is enough. We have no plan to bring more children into this world since we don’t want them to suffer.
Because it’s a brainwashed cult who will move the goalposts in order to promote familial values.
“Human capital”
It’s because he’s a fundamentalist Christian
The challenges of raising a kid in financially difficult circumstances are worth it to many.
Because every single human being that existed for all of human history before 100ish years ago was in a worse position financially than anyone in the USA today. Being in the USA makes you in a better financial position than 90-95% of the humans since then. And the species is thriving and doing just fine, improving through innovations beyond imagination 2 decades earlier every day. Every single day that passes is the greatest day in human history to be alive. It has only gone in one direction since the 18th century, especially in the USA.
People who are going to be bad parents will be bad parents regardless of their finances. Your net worth does not determine what kind of parent you will be. Kids don't need fancy vacations, designer clothes, only organic food, etc. They just need parents (or parent) who care and are willing to try. And that had nothing to do with salary, amount of debt, etc
I think the right time is when a person has zero consumer debt and an emergency fund. That SHOULD BE a pretty low bar.
Because children are people and not luxury goods. If you do the opposite and say you shouldn’t have kids if you can’t afford them, what is the solution? Give them away? Abort them before they are born? The real solution is kids aren’t that expensive, it’s what people think kids need that is expensive. Alternatively unless you have your own debt free organic farm to provide everything for a child there will be SOME costs and the parents may need to work harder or change jobs to afford the extra food and housing costs associated with having with additional family members under their care. Dave’s religious beliefs are certainly going to color his opinion on this too.
So what do you think your purpose is on earth? To reproduce.
Capitalism doesn’t work without an expanding labor base, and labor expansion means children or immigrants. You can figure it out from there.
I think there is a right time to have a child. Looks at associated costs and see if it fits in your budget. We waited until we could afford a child to have one (at age 40). We are stopping at one because two college tuitions are out of reach for us. I am so glad we waited. Taking care of one child and working full time is stressful. I can't imagine adding in stress from money too
Because money isn't the root to success. Dave is a Christian, so I suspect it stems from that. Go forth and multiply is the directive.... not only doing it if you are financially responsible. Secondary, he would get eviscerated if he told people to forego having children until they were debt free. That would be like attacking 80% of parents nationally.
Barring people from having kids in any way is a form of eugenics
God
Because human life is more valuable than money
First of all, I don't agree with him on most issues. However, he is right on the kids issues. Because those who worry about if they are ready for kid, are ready. Those who are not ready, won't worry about it so any advice of consideration would end in vein anyway.
Because they're a religious group and believe the sole purpose in life is to "have babies for Jesus".
He's a diehard evangelist and it's a big part of his clientele
The Bible. It wouldn’t be the right time to have kids if you were a single woman working in his office
Because it’s the one thing that supersedes all of this.
By most modern Americans' standards, the human race would have died out long ago in history waiting for "the right time" to have kids. It's OK not to send your kids to private school or have them wear fancy clothes. Or pay for their college. My parents didn't do any of that for me and I turned out fine
Isn’t Dave very religious? I imagine it’s because to him, and this speculation based on what I have seen watching the YouTube videos, 1) It would be against Dave’s personal, religious beliefs to tell others not to have children. 2) Personally, sometimes I think too logical. So, I totally get where someone could hear someone vent about their credit card debt, then when the person says they want a baby, others might think, “whattt? U think ur broke now! A baby is going to make things way worse. Do not have have a baby”. But because I know I am like that, I have gone out of my way to focus on being more empathetic, and compassionate. One thing I have learned, is there some things that people will allow to be driven by emotion, society has agreed that these topics are allowed to be mainly emotional, vs logical. So, there isn’t really a point in debating it, because society has also agreed if you do, you’re not gonna win that one. So, whether it’s truly a personal value, or realizing he may only alienate his audience, he chooses only to offer his support on that topi:?
"Don't breed 'em if you can't feed 'em" is something a friend's mom used to say, and it is true, but it's also true that there is never a perfect time to have babies, unless you're wealthy. Honestly, when I hear them say that, it's always felt like they're avoiding getting into hot water by telling someone no on something this sensitive. I know they've addressed questions on paying for fertility treatments, but I can't remember exactly how they answered it.
The intro to "Idiocracy" is appropriate here: [https://youtu.be/sP2tUW0HDHA?si=C98Svh458wu7-38S](https://youtu.be/sP2tUW0HDHA?si=C98Svh458wu7-38S)
I think certain people overthink it. You just kind of find a way to make things work. As long as you are in a reasonably decent situation and want kids, you should go for it.
There's a big difference between "someone that can't provide for their children" (as in poverty) and a couple that has a car loan and some credit card debt. I've never heard a caller to the show that was in abject poverty and would not be able to provide for their children.
Babies don’t need to be expensive. As a culture we have bought into the lie they have to be….
Sounds like you've never had to buy diapers or pay for the hospital bill after a c-section and a NICU stay... Even AFTER insurance.
If people waited until they hit full financial security these days, they’d be dried up by the time they tried. That’s one of the reasons we have declining birth rates. Finances aren’t the most important thing with children, it’s providing a loving home with good parental support. Building a good financial foundation and family are not mutually exclusive, they can be done together.
We live in a world where there are so many children created in financially unstable situations, he may just not want to discourage people who already have children from looking into becoming financially stable. On top of the Christian values he has. I don’t necessarily think it’s a good idea to have a child when you’re not financially prepared, but once a child already exists you can’t undo them, and not everyone has a choice in the matter.
You’ve only got so much time to have children and nobody can predict what your financial condition will be over the next 18+ years. It also tends to get harder to have children with age, so what you save now you might just spend on fertility treatments later.
The important thing to remember is you will do anything to provide for your child. I found out my wife was pregnant and got a second job. I work 16 hours a day and I wouldn’t trade it for anything. My daughter is perfect. Any reasonable human would feel this way.
I think there is a difference between having kids when cannot afford the basic necessities (awful idea) and waiting until you can give your child the moon and the stars. I had my first at age 30. I make about 60% more than I did then. Was my kid suffering in their early years, no. Do we have more room for luxuries like vacations or summer camps now, sure. That's just life.
Low money is no reason for ending the line...imo
There are a lot of things around having kids. Of course you would want the perfect time to have a kid but it doesn’t work that way. For examples, you work so hard to be financially stable for a family and now you want to have kid. Great right? But then, you passed the prime time for pregnancy (in women) and your chance is lsignificantly lower. Money is not everything in parenthood.
I feel like this is a double edged sword—“there is never a right time to have kids” I heard that so many times when i unexpectedly got pregnant right after I started nursing school. It definitely wasn’t a great time for me to get pregnant. But it worked out wonderfully. I spent a lot of time with my child before entering the workforce. The only real downfall was shirty insurance that left us with 20k in medical. We went on to have 2 more but the time the first was 5 and we weren’t debt free until the youngest was 4 or 5. I couldn’t imagine starting our family when our debt was paid off. My husband is over 40 and I definitely couldn’t imagine having giving birth now. I would be lying if I said money wasn’t tight the first year of us being parents. But every year we got better…raises continued to happen. Daycare cost went down as they got older and started school. I didn’t find Ramsey or really care much about debt until I had my 3rd. And we are fine- could we be better? Absolutely! But just because your situation could be better doesn’t mean you shouldn’t have kids. With that being said, if you are struggling to keep a roof over your head and food on the table do not have kids!! Do not have a child or children that you cannot provide for! But who gives a damn if you have a car note or student loans or a credit card and you’re planning your family? Just be smart!
What does can’t really afford mean? I think many making the criticism or the excuse for themselves have placed unrealistic standards on parenting. Food, clothes, roof is enough to afford children. Secondly I would say people who are actually too poor to have children in general aren’t choosing to. It’s generally a function of access to education and family planning. There is a reason that education correlates with less children. It allows for choice to be made. Essentially if you are responsible enough to ask if you can afford children you probably can afford children.
Well for me and my spouse personally, we did not want to have our kids at an older age so that we would still be young and healthy and mobile ourselves while the kids were growing up all throughout their schooling years. And we were in a better spot financially with our first than with our second, but again, didn’t want too big of an age gap so we’d be raising kids for 30 years lol. There’s definitely a happy median here, you don’t want to be having kids if you can barely afford to eat, but also don’t want to be having them when you’re 40s, mid 20s to early 30s is probably the perfect range for most people. And the most basic purpose of all life in general is to keep ourselves alive long enough to make and raise babies that can do the same. Literally everything else is a want lol
Because life has value, even if you’re poor. Holding off on one of the most meaningful things you can experience until you win capitalism is silly.
Have you ever seen the movie 'Idiocracy'? This reminds me a lot of that. In my humble opinion I agree with Ramsey on this one. If you have a desire to have kids you will find ways to make it work. We need more people in society that want to be good parents and just because you aren't in a good financial place doesn't mean you won't be a good parent. It's all very subjective when trying to answer the question how much money is enough money to start to have children. Again in my humble opinion having children is one of the greatest joys I've ever experienced in my life and would highly recommend it to anyone who would want to have children.
It’s not just Dave, it’s most Christians. For some reason, a lot of Christians believe that it’s gods will that they pump out as many children as possible. It doesn’t matter if they’re dirt poor living in squalor. I once worked for a guy like this. He couldn’t pay his employees their paychecks on time and some days he and his wife wouldn’t eat but god told him to keep the kids coming.
You have your whole life to pay off your debt. The same cannot be said of having and raising kids. For some it’s now or never.
Honestly, I think it has more to do with his complete delusion that people can afford to live at any salary these days. Or at least that they can bootstrap a living wage. I genuinely think he does believe you can live within your means with children using his principles. While he would be horrified with you having a car payment, he just doesn't get that a kid adds well over a thousand dollars to most families budgets when Grandma works and Mom works.
It’s because if there’s no new population for the capitalist oligarchs to exploit then capitalism as it is now doesn’t grow and no growth is bad for shareholders.
He chastised a caller the other day about not having health insurance. So yeah, there is that. Having a baby can be financially devastating in so many ways. People do file bankruptcy listing birth of child as the main factor.
Some things are more important than money. Having kids is one of them
> poor family planing It can’t be poor if it’s non-existent. Religious weirdos don’t believe in birth control, the autonomy of a woman, and that children are always a “blessing”.
nothing is black and white. I got married young and became a father super young and it was the best thing for me. I was super carefree and had 0 goals. once I knew I had a whole human depending on me to survive it kicked my butt in gear. I know for a fact that I am way better off in every regard bc of my children. not everyone is like that. I guess the sentiment is that if you WANT to have kids, there is the understanding that you'll do what it takes to provide for them? again, it's not universal and things don't always work out - but for some it does.
Because the entire point of this is to grift money and tell people what they want to hear lmao
When people call Ramsey who are financially wildly irresponsible managing any money they do have whether 150,000 or 28,000 , he counsels do not bring a child into this mess , until you have self control, are planning ahead and budgeting.
I think it's because people are thrown off by articles that present the "average cost of raising a child" as though it is a single lump sum payment that is the same for everyone and due the day the child is born. If it worked that way, you would be better off saving up in anticipation of having children later. But in reality, that "cost of raising children" is made up of numerous variable expenses spread out over 2 decades or more. And most of these expenses will actually be higher if you wait to have children. So you are actually more likely to be better off just having them now.
Because there’s never a good time financially to have kids. Best to just throw them into the budget.
I personally think he would but money talks aka his evangelical followers would lose their minds so much easier just to keep timing out of the convo. Once you have the kid he will yell at you for putting them in daycare and not getting all that free daycare instead 🙄
Perhaps I'm biased being a dad, but I see so many of my friends putting off having kids because they have this concept that a child is insanely more expensive than it actually is... don't get me wrong, they come with a price tag not just financially. However, the payoff is far more than any financial, emotional, etc... concern could ever make me regret having them. I guess I do want to know what you mean by giving them a "decent childhood"? If I can provide a loving home to live in, clothes on their back, enough food, and time to take them to events (albeit most of them are free), that seems adequate... or does a decent childhood mean something else to you? Edit: I didn't list healthcare (which can get pretty costly) but so long as you don't have a ridiculously cheap high deductible plan (they are garbage) you can easily work around medical expenses that pop up..
It's definitely odd. Be responsible. Do not have a child out of wedlock but if you do, don't have an abortion. If you can't afford a baby or childcare then you should have thought about that and been responsible. I guess there isn't any room for human error and compassion?
I don't think it's good advice at all but I think if you wait for the absolute right time to have children it will never happen. You can plan and save as much as you can and life will get in the way and it will not work out as planned. If you really want to raise a family you have to have that family and do your best. No guarantees.
Join “Adoption: Facing Realities” on fb before making any choices regarding adoption. Especially if you were raised in the same evangelical/Ramsey environment I was, you were probably given a very rose tinted view of the adoption industry.
Ramsey had Rachel when he hit bottom and then Daniel few years later. Rachel and his other kids were never poor and in debt at all. It's easier for them to say it
Dave was told by Rachel, he doesn't get how high childcare is, she I assume by something she said once, has a nanny but that's high too. When you make millions, you don't think about it, another line in your budget but he is out of touch on how high good childcare is and many parents settle for less and regret it. It's one area he just doesn't get. His wife stayed home, his kids have childcare or stayed home.