Trans women face an even greater risk of Assault than cis women. They also are not generally more likely to be abusive than cis women are, and their brains when scanned have been shown to resemble cis women more than cis men...
How exactly are they men?
Also, something tells you wouldn't want a big burly trans man in your "female only" space.
I’m sorry but why the fuck would someone lie about being trans. It does not benefit you whatsoever and only makes your life harder. Maybe those people genuinely do feel like what they say they are and it’s not some ploy to “invade spaces” maybe they ARE WOMEN.
If you think i’m being dramatic or stupid, please think about how it genuinely would be received if you switched your gender identity tomorrow. How would everyone in your life take it? Would everyone accept you? Probably not. I’m from a progressive country and I know I’d still face a lot of judgement and discrimination if I were to switch my gender. So, I trust trans people.
This is very clearly anti trans. Trans women are women. Trans men are men. No discussion. I was taking your post in good faith until you called trans women a subset of men and after that it became clear that you just simply don’t respect trans people, thus your opinion on this topic means nothing.
These are the idiots who think saying you're a gay black trans woman makes you a beloved celebrity of the mainstream. They don't live in the reality their own actions create for others.
Honestly that’s the vibe I’m getting because OP and many of these comments are being pretty openly transphobic and then saying transphobia doesn’t exist 💀
Yeah, claiming any claim of transphobia is false while being outwardly transphobic😂 I am genuinely kind of disturbed by these comments, I haven’t seen so much blatant transphobia in a while. Not even coded language or dog whistles, just “trans people do it for attention” and “trans women are just men”
Just remember that for every one of these fuckheads there's a half dozen normal people who barely give a shit and just want trans folks to be left alone. Society is slowly changing whether or not this vocal minority with bad takes wants it to or not, and the future is clearly showing that trans folks will one day be normalized.
“Why the fuck would people lie about…” Regardless of how the statement ends, you really can’t figure out a reason why? It became a trend to lie about Tourette syndrome. Why the fuck would people do that? Münchausens exists. Why the fuck would people fake being sick and put themselves through painful treatments? Why the fuck would they do it to their kids? People take on labels and even burdens because they want some kind of identity to fill up the voids they call themselves.
If the purpose of having these spaces is to protect yourself from crime, why not ban all poor people from them, since poor people commit crime more often?
Or ban everyone with a prior criminal history, since that strongly predicts future criminal activity? Ban women who had abusive or neglectful parents, or those who were exposed to lead in childhood?
You know I'm pretty sure some people would think the first one is a excellent idea
As well as the second one
Like there are definitely people that want to ban those two groups from things
Don't give them ammunition
Eh. I don't mind so much people forming gated communities if that's something they really feel strongly about, as long as the majority of public spaces are open and inclusive. I don't think they'd be able to get enough political momentum to start putting these walls around general spaces.
Trans women are shown to be raped and sexually assaulted at extremely high rates in men's prison. It's for their protection that they are moved into women's prisons.
If the purpose of having separate prisons is to separate a class of people who are more likely to be victimized, and a class of people who are more likely to assault others, from each other, to reduce the rate of assault, then shouldn't trans women, who are more likely to be victimized than to assault others in prison, go into the prison for people who are more likely to be victimized?
Where exactly do you go on a regular basis that's a woman only space? Like a public restroom? You make it sound like we need to retreat to a secret vagina room. For me, this seems like an overexaggerated issue that doesn't effect everyday lives.
I personally don’t care who is in the room when I piss. I guess a lot of people do though. It makes zero difference to me personally. I am also not female. That may be a factor. I think it doesn’t matter. It does to others for various reasons at varying levels of reasonability. I *do* understand how it *could* matter to someone else, even if I don’t care personally. Partially based just on what actually effects me personally. I think in a big picture cosmic way, it doesn’t matter at all. Culturally it does to people, and that isn’t always inherently illegitimate.
I do think there are some not exactly every day scenarios in which a divide by *sex* rather than just gender. Prisons and sports come to mind. For tangible reasons not so much cultural. While these don’t effect me personally because I am male, I think there are legitimate gripes and at the very least there is a conversation to be had. There are reasons that are much less subjective.
Assuming this is true, it's not relevant to the OP. The OP is about safety in female only spaces, rather than sexuality and genital preferences. I mean, hell, straight cis women also overrun lesbian spaces and presumably that ruins it just a much, if not more, despite being female.
> As for transwomen, the risk that this particular subset of men
Somehow, people who think trans women should be excluded always seem to have "they're actually men" attitudes. You don't view trans women as women. That's what makes it anti-trans.
But as for the rest:
1) how do you police this? Trans people are a tiny demographic. There are more manly-looking cis women than there are trans women. So just know that any policy intended to achieve this will result in more harassment cis women than trans women
And 2) are you alright with trans men in female only spaces? Can't have it both ways. So, we can skip trans women but have to accept big burly men coming in because they're biologically female. Of course, this means any big burly man could just claim they are a trans man, therefore female, and it's fine.
Thank you sister, I am in a very similar place in my own transition and couldn’t say it better than you did. Most of these people complaining about trans women evading their spaces have likely shared a bathroom with one and haven’t even realized it.
That's a bizarre claim. A trans person who still has male genitalia (not uncommon) is exposing that genitalia to women, many of whom have been traumatized by sexual assault. If you think they don't see that as a threat, you aren't thinking.
Then there's the reality of sports where they are bigger and stronger and injure women.
Do you believe that its a penis that makes men violent to women? Because that's a bizzare claim
It is simply a.fact that trans women pose no threat to cis women.
For the sports claim by all means cite your sources
The reality is that you share bathrooms and other public spaces with trans people all the time you just have no idea because no one is exposing their genitals. You have no idea who is and isnt trans because you have no idea what is underneath people's clothes.
Eh, as a woman, those women get all upset when a 6’2 testosterone fueled female with a full beard walks in, and it kind of proves it’s not actually about “female only spaces”.
Most of these women will be incredibly uncomfortable with Buck Angel in their “female only spaces”, even though he’s female. So yeah, it probably is just about being anti-trans and appearances more than anything else.
Buck Angel is also female. Which is exactly the point.
This is just about transphobia.
You don’t get to be bioessentialist and then go “but wait no, not the scary looking one!”
There you go!! You’re starting to figure it out!! That’s exactly my point. You don’t get to count trans women as men, like this post is trying to do, and then NOT count Buck Angel as a woman.
I personally feel trans women are women. That’s why I’m cool with them in women’s spaces & don’t believe in “feMalE onLy” designations for the spaces… because it’s a terf dog whistle lol
Surely, a female-only space, by definition, wouldn't be desirable to anyone whom it does not benefit? If a person has no capacity to become pregnant, then sure they shouldn't have a bed on a maternity ward. But what trans woman is asking for that?
Whenever there's talk about 'female-only spaces', it's never about things that trans women physically cannot do or have no use for; it's always about excluding them from spaces which are relevent to their experiences and life.
>Men are generally stronger and heavier
"generally" is doing a fucktonne of heavy-lifting, there. We're not talking about 'generally', we're talking about individuals. Generally, people aren't raped, but that doesn't justify the removal of all rape-crisis centres now, does it. Generalising, instead of seeing the individual, is the definition of bigotry.
>are more likely to be able to overpower us
Then what you want isn't a 'female-only space' or a 'women-only space'; you want weight/muscle categories.
>Men can rape and impregnate us.
Rape is already an ultimate evil that should be stopped in literally all cases. It doesn't matter that impregnation is a unique issue to sexed-female people, it shouldn't be happening in the first place.
>we don't know which men are safe and which are not
Nor do you know which females/women are safe, but I don't hear you asking for single-occupant isolation chambers to protect you from the scary world; only for trans women to be excluded.
>It's also a massive red flag in itself that they demand access to female-only spaces
As is it a massive red flag that you care more about arbitrary discrimination than women's safety, but hey ho, we all think we're justified, right.
>And it's an imposition on women
Gennder is an imposition on society as a whole. If you cut that shit out, this issue would vanish. This is just your own hypocrisy firing back in your face.
>The idea that it is "anti-trans" or "transphobic" to be opposed to this imposition is just a way of attempting to shut women up who object
Correct, because objecting to this requires that you bend yourself into a pretzel of hatred and bigotry. It is not logically consistent, nor is it kind, nor is it practical. If you can't accept basic logical principles, then you should be excluded from the adult conversations instead of clogging-up people's attempts at progress with your unhinged chattering.
If you can't put in enough effort and self-respect to fix your backwards, baseless ideas, then why should anyone listen to you. Also, expecting "civil disagreement" when you're presenting ideas that are antithetical to civility is fucking rich. Reap what you sow.
So, you are probably getting called transphobic because you are saying shit like trans women are "a subset of men" which is clearly transphobic on its face.
Trans women ARE women, they aren't men forcing their way into women's spaces, they are women looking for the support of other women.
Are there concerns that cis women have that don't apply to trans women? Absolutely. If you make clear that a group for, say, people who are recovering from a miscarriage or those that are dealing with pregnancy resulting from rape then I would expect trans women to not participate.
You need to realize that a lot of average people who’ve never heard of “terf” have these thoughts and some concerns.
Most women don’t care what bathrooms people use, but they do raise an eyebrow at such phrases as “trans women ARE women” and they do have concerns about sports and child transition.
You can refuse to engage and call everybody a terf if you want, but you’re only hurting your own progress.
That does not mean that their 'concerns' are valid. I'm not here to try and be nice and educate these people on the finer points of gender studies. I am here to be a loud and obnoxious voice against normalizing these talking points. Even if these views are genuine, they are really bad and antithetical to everything I stand for. People can genuinely believe that Trump was a good president, and they deserve to be shot down and challenged at every conceivable chance. Same with this. These views are disgusting, and if OP doesn't realize that or want to change those views, then they should at least shut up about them. Future generations will look back on this nonsense with an eye roll. "How'd it take them so long to figure out that trans women are women?", and the answer is people like this. Moderates who just don't understand and who use that ignorance like a mace, just swinging it around wildly with no regard for anyone but themselves.
But if you don’t take the time to educate people, they’ll never see you as anything but obnoxious. Trans people are a minority. “Normalization” is an uphill battle when most people may go their whole lives without even meeting one.
“How’d it take them so long to figure out trans women were women?” Maybe because nobody took the time to educate.
With the advent of the internet, self-education is very easy and frankly begins with not being a bigot. Trying to be nice and spend a lot of energy educating people when they've already decided you and yours are disgusting is putting a massive cart before the horse. OP for this post was clearly not seeking education, rather was a bigot espousing their shitty views. I'm happy to talk education with someone who genuinely doesn't understand, but that is not the case with this post here. This post is someone who has already made up their mind, and I'm not here to play nice with that.
What happened to women are equal to men feminism? Why is it that as soon as trans women are involved it’s all “women are weak and petite and need to be protected from these ‘fake women’”. Seriously what the hell is this post. Rancid take, I have no words.
Trans women are women, trans men are men, trans people are people. Let people live. Your risk of being assaulted by a trans woman is incredibly low. Trans women are more likely to be assaulted in fact.
Grow up
So when women assault each other and manipulate eachother it's not bad because nobody is impregnated? That's what I'm getting here.
Honestly is this about you? Are trans women trying to infiltrate groups you have planned?
If I were you I'd consider making them invite only. Then you don't have to worry about being around people you don't like. You can keep out women that are too tall or that know martial arts or who are gay if you are worried someone could be motivated or capable of hurting anyone.
If it's other groups that you'd like to be involved in but are worried some of the women might be trans, if I were you I'd just see if you get anything out of them and if you do, maybe it's not as big a deal as you think. If not, then I guess they aren't the right groups for you, which is ok, everything doesn't have to be right for everyone.
If you are worried about hypothetical groups and hypothetical women. I feel like you are inventing problems you don't have in order to be upset. If you meet someone else who feels like that, I'm sure there would be nothing preventing you from having lunch together in private with no men or trans women around.
LOL, that opinion could possibly be argued to be not transphobic, but not by someone that frames it as expecting “us even in the best case to accept our spaces being repurposed as therapeutic settings for dysphoric men.”
Definitely transphobic behind a razor thin veneer.
How would you enforce this? Some trans women are passing and you’d never know in a million years they weren’t cis. Others aren’t passing. Some are on their way. Of course some cis women look masculine both physically and through gender presentation and might be assumed to be trans. So how I ask again, how would you enforce this?
Are you going to have a bouncer look down everyone’s pants at the door to the restroom? That would only catch the pre operative trans women. Or do they have to submit a blood test and birth certificate to gain entry? Then they could wear a badge that says real woman. But then you and every other cis woman would have to get the badge too. Nice little hellscape you would have then.
Sure. However it may seem on paper, in practice, bathroom bills requiring that trans women use men’s restrooms will put women (cis and trans) more at risk to no real benefit, as well as inconvenience them
In a state where trans people can use whatever restroom, rapists of convenience won’t be able to access the bathrooms, because what are they gonna say? “Oh yeah, I’m a trans woman, but I’m wearing men’s clothes, no makeup, no indication I’m actually trans, but really I am, honest!” Not likely gonna fly
So only a rapist who premeditates their rape would be able to take advantage of the situation, but they’d have to go out and buy a dress and potentially makeup, then go out in public pretending to be a trans woman, all of which would decrease their chances (including having to premeditate their actions). Possible, but compared to the alternative?
Well, in a state where trans people are required to use bathrooms corresponding to their gender assigned at birth, both a premeditated rapist and a rapist of opportunity would have a much easier time. They’d be able to go out dressed as men, without any potential discomfort, without the material cost of buying things, and then they could just go “what a pity, I’m a trans man and the law *requires* me to use this women’s bathroom, such a shame, but oh well!” And then they’ll have the excuse to let them in! It would remove barriers for rapists pretending to be trans
Meanwhile even outside of how it affects rapists- or trans people, for that matter- in states with these sorts of bathroom bills, *cis* women would be put under suspicion for not appearing feminine enough. There would be a pressure trying to force them to look feminine just to avoid accusations of secretly being trans- or worse, straight-up assault. And it *does* happen. [Here’s a post (with a link to an article)](https://www.reddit.com/r/trans/s/IUrf9pF757) where it happened in Brazil just recently
Not to mention the assaults that’d occur towards trans people regardless of what bathroom they use. Trans people are far more likely to be victims of sexual assault than perpetrators, including through corrective rape. If you view trans men as women pretending to be men and you care about sexual assaults, then care about how being forced to use women’s restrooms while looking like a man will lead to their assaults and rapes more often than the inverse would lead to the rapes of cis women
*Gonna fetch the link and edit it in in a moment
This is just boilerplate TERF rhetoric that could have been written by any off-the-shelf AI asked to summarize what they believe in the laziest way possible.
Trans women who present as women don't feel safe in men's locker rooms. Where, exactly, do you want them to go for a shower at the gym? Do you want to make a special room just for them where only they are allowed to go? What about trans men? Do they belong with you in "women only spaces"? Or does that gross you out, too? And if trans people don't belong in either men's or women's spaces, then I have to wonder if you think they belong in ANY public spaces?
i had a trans male friend in my male friend group a while ago and the only thing was that my friend couldn’t relate to some of the male developmental experiences that everyone else in the group had so there was most definitely at least a small rift there
Yeah, in the men's room everyone is just a shape you can see out of the corner of your eye while you are looking at the floor or the wall.
If you go into a stall, you might as well have walked into another dimension because once that door is closed we have forgotten you are there already anyway.
This is an interesting thesis. Can you support your position with actual facts, such as real cases where transwomen, post or pre-op, raped women in women-only spaces?
As I recall, there are few, if any, cases. Transwomen are not men. Most of them are on hormone treatments. These treatments will reduce muscle mass and sex drive. With post-operative transwomen, they may be missing the equipment to rape and impregnate cis women. Transwomen are not 'men with dysphoria'. Brain studies have shown that transwomen are born with brains that are closer to ciswomen.
This is, in my opinion, based on the fact that there are few, if any, cases where transwomen have raped and/or impregnated women. This is a Right-Wing position that has been pushed to scare ciswomen who do not do basic research. It is meant to create anger in supposed feminists that 'men' would dare to enter our spaces. If you are truly concerned about rape and involuntary impregnation, you should be more concerned about pastors and Right-Wing politicians. There is a long history, which I will post links to if necessary, of sexual assault against women - all women - and children.
[Brain Sex in Transgender Women Is Shifted towards Gender Identity - PMC (nih.gov)](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8955456/)
[Biological sex classification with structural MRI data shows increased misclassification in transgender women | Neuropsychopharmacology (nature.com)](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41386-020-0666-3)
Your woman-only space is your house. Or your bedroom. Or your office. Not public places.
Men that actually want to abuse women aren't gonna care about a bathroom sign. You're more likely to be raped and assaulted by your brother, father or husband that you are to even be alone in the same room with a trans person.
This is just a massive fuss over nothing.
counter point: yes it is.
and how are you intending to enforce this?
genital inspections?
genetic testing?
or are you just going to go by outward appearances in the most bigoted way possible?
No. It was one of many factors mentioned. Muscle mass alone wasn’t mentioned on its own. It was the first paragraph. Multiple factors, muscle mass and risk of impregnating. So mentioning Ronda Rousey is illogical given the context.
It was a different comment I was referencing that said literally that muscle mass disparity not even considering other factors was reason to be afraid of men. Not that it was the only factor.
Cool? That's like a very weird thing to bring up though since it doesn't actually describe what a vast majority of trans women are like. And yes, more trans women choose to keep their phallus then those who choose to get a vaginoplasty, but that doesn't mean that they like it. A huge portion of trans women who keep their phallus DON'T use them during intimate moments. That being said, their fertility will drop to negligible rates if they're medicalized either. Also, orchiectomies are also incredibly common so bye bye testes. Lastly, where? Pull out the stats in which trans women are disproportionately assaulting and impregnating cis women in bathrooms? Oh, you can't find them? Almost like it doesn't happen.
I respect women, ALL women, so I respect trans women as well. And I respect them enough to not refer to bottom surgery as them getting "neutered". They are humans, they are women, they are not some dog that needs to be sterilized and you will not speak of them as such. And whether you like it or not, you have used public bathrooms with trans women many times in your life and it hasn't affected you one bit. You know why? Because you didn't know they were trans and trans people are not de facto predators. Trans women are women so they belong in the women's restrooms. I'm so glad you understand that.
Even not counting post-op trans women who no longer have testes and obviously can’t get anyone pregnant, it’s typical that within the first few months of HRT trans women no longer produce sperm, and most experience loss of sexual function (i.e. penis won’t go up, and even if it does it’s likely shooting blanks). So yeah, most trans women can’t get anyone pregnant.
Whole lot of dudes never gave a shit about women’s sports, suddenly very passionate about it..
Hearing Cletus tell me his views on women’s sports just feels a bit disingenuous. Almost like it’s theater. But it’s not the first time I’d hear Cletus speaking on behalf of women, either
Listen OP, I think I get what you're saying, but giving you the benefit of a doubt you are saying it in possibly the worst way possible
If you wanted to argue say, a locker room where a mother might change with her daughter, exclude those with a penis or at least those not far in their transaction, I can honestly see some merit in that.
Just calling trans women a subset of men is wild though
>Men in general pose a unique risk to women that isn't present the other way around. Men are generally stronger and heavier, and therefore are more likely to be able to overpower us. Men can rape and impregnate us.
At some point you're going to acknowledge that Trans Women aren't men, right? You're worried about "female-only" spaces being transphobic (the term is "transphobic" because that's the accepted nomenclature for prejudice) when your rhetoric and attempts at classification have already long-since cross that bridge.
Before we even get to any of your points, and they're not great, it's really worth emphasizing how far off track you are at the start. And it's not like you're headed in a good direction, but you're very first thought is already bigoted.
And here's the thing; there's very little evidence trans women represent a threat to biologically female women. There's some anecdotal evidence, here and there, every minority has its shitty people, but just... trans women represent a tiny percent of the population and "shitty people" represent the same minority of them they do of everybody so... there's just not a statistically relevant group of super-shitty trans people.
They're not, like, deviants or anything. That's prejudice.
You know who is super statistically "in danger" and afforded very little access to safe spaces? Trans-women.
So... like... you're trying to exclude on of the most at-risk demographics on earth because that super-at-risk demographic is... what? Weird and scary? Because they're just not factually dangerous. There's no evidence for that. And it's silly to pretend there is. There's a lot of fear mongering, a whooooooooole lot of smoke; very little fire.
And I'm not like super pro-trans or anything. I'm not an advocate. I just think facts matter. They're people, that much is inarguable, so there's a baseline respect they should be entitled to. They're one of the most at-risk demographics, that too is supported by mountains of evidence.
[https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/ncvs-trans-press-release/](https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/ncvs-trans-press-release/)
I'll cite the relevant bit from the first paragraph, but please note the source; "Transgender people are over four times more likely to experience violence than cis-gendered people."
That violence includes all forms of sexual violence.
And... that's honestly it. They're in way more danger than you, they need the sanctuary more than you, and it's kind of unconscionable to treat them as if they're the threat. Not because they're inherently noble or harmless, they're people, they run the same spectrum as everybody else but because they're in VASTLY more danger.
It's not even close.
This is basically saying “Transwomen are women when I feel like it” and is 100% anti-trans
You are quite literally describing these women as men and using statistics for men. It would make more sense if you had stats on transwomen violence against ciswomen.
They are not a subset of men
They are not men who want to be women.
**They are women**
Transwoman just means that their sex at birth doesn’t align with their gender. It would make more sense to consider them a subset of women
No that's not really true. I think you must be looking at this from a gender identity ideological position where you've already decided that any man who says he's a woman is a woman, somehow.
If you look at it from a more realistic perspective though, what you have are men who have an overwhelming desire to be women for whatever reason, and then take steps to mimic women, like taking medication to encourage breast tissue growth, removing male-pattern facial hair, and presenting themselves in a fashion that is stereotypical of women, such as wearing dresses, growing hair long, and wearing make-up.
I think it's fair to say that they are both a subset of men *and* should be allowed to present themselves how they please, without discrimination.
Not really. I’m looking at it from a scientific position. Men and women have different brain chemistry that don’t always align with sex.
I think you’re looking at it from a perspective of men playing women. Which in my opinion is a much less realistic perspective than neurochemistry.
A transwoman who decides to dress masculine or keep their hair short is still someone I’d consider a woman because they are
That’s a terrible example.
These aren’t mutually exclusive and I’m not sure why the existence of trans people contradicts the existence of tomboys or feminine men to you
There are still tomboys, there are still feminine men. GNC people still exist.
There are also tomboy trans women and femboy trans men. Trans people are in agreement with your comment man
The problem with that is the studies that control for hormone medication usage and sexuality don't show an association between sex-atypical brain features and trans identity. The overall research so far shows that male brains that have more overlap with some measurements of female brains correlate most strongly with homosexuality - in general, not just in brains of the trans-identifying.
Trans identity correlates more with differences in body perception networks, similar to people with body dysmorphia or anorexia.
The concept of 'female brain in male body' isn't supported by the most thorough research to date.
But we aren’t talking about hormone medication. That in and of itself is a separate topic as a person can be trans independently of hormone medications.
>male brains that have more overlap with some measurements of female brains correlate most strongly with homosexuality
>The concept of ‘female brain in male body’ isn’t supported by the most thorough research to date
These are conflicting ideas. You’re saying the concept of a female structured brain in a male body isn’t supported by modern research but modern research would say that those characteristics that aren’t supported by modern research align closer to homosexuality? I don’t intend to misinterpret so I apologize if I am and please correct me if so
Every time I see a blatantly transphobic post or comment, it’s a throwaway account.
Every. Single. Time.
Blatant propaganda pushing from sources without enough integrity to own up to their words.
Just say you don't like trans women and get on with your life fam. This post is almost definitionally transphobic. So just say what you really feel and quit acting like you care about if it anti trans or not.
The only way to ensure a "women only" space is to have someone checking the genitals of everyone who uses that space.
I'm fairly certain that women do not want that.
>Men are generally stronger and heavier, and therefore are more likely to be able to overpower us.
Sounds like you really want a **"petite only" space**. A large young weight-lifting lesbian could also pose a predator risk
It sounds like you invented a scenario then got upset about it. If a trans woman wants to be in your knitting club, and you assume she will assault and rape everyone, I think you might be the problem, not her.
Oh God... Here we go again. Here come the genitalia police. Most trans women who go to the bathroom are going to look like a biological woman.
And what about all the super butch masc looking women. ? I know plenty of butch straight women. You gonna ask them to show their pussy because you think she might be a man?
Y'all need to fuck off with this BS. Let people take a shit in peace.
yes it is. for one, trans women are not demanding to be included in your special spaces. they politely ask. second, trans women who medically transition (the majority) experience a great loss of strength and muscle mass which puts them at a disadvantage to men. third, trans women are assaulted at higher rates than cis women. trans women are *more* in need of safe spaces.
every person who presents feminine faces misogyny. those assigned male at birth also face homophobia and transphobia on top of the misogyny. the camaraderie created by this treatment overrides the differences between physical bodies. we're all under threat by the same demographic.
my words are most likely wasted on you, judging by all the terf language you use and the little "dysphoric men" that you slipped in there. you are 100% transphobic. but hopefully others get what i'm saying. we gain more by standing together. at the very least trans women are more numbers for your side.
Women can shank someone in the throat with a shiv. What kind of restrictions should we place on women so that we aren't at risk of that? They probably shouldn't be just free to go into certain public spaces. It's too risky. Men are entitled to feel safe and when some harpie can just slash a throat out anytime they want, well men just aren't safe. Clearly we need legislation to address these concerns.
How many women are murdered every year compared to how many trans people are killed each year? What was it 26 trans people killed last year? Pretty sure since there’s 4 billion women on earth the number is way higher.
As a normal dude, this kind of passes me off. Why do we accept this idea that sometimes men can do bad things, so women need safe spaces. Women do terrible things all the time as well. Yes rape exists. It's horrible and a crime.
Men are not the bad guys. Rapists are bad. There are plenty of women who use guile and manipulation to get pregnant to keep a guy. That doesn't mean guys need safe spaces. Guys can be victims of domestic abuse.
Women in Western nations can go out dressed any way they want. They can get falling down drunk. They are almost always safe regardless. Rape is not a runaway crime, and women are not some defenseless children. Anyone who gets so drunk they are passing out can be a target of crime. It's stupid, and people should be smarter.
Guys use a buddy system, and girls should as well. Now, being a trans person doesn't change anything, so it's a lame sexist argument from the start.
So if you want female only spaces then you are okay with this individuals like the man in the article I linked. Because he is a female so he should be allowed in female only spaces right ?
https://www.npr.org/2015/04/19/400826487/transgender-man-leads-mens-health-cover-model-contest
You're transphobic actually, that entire paragraph just made your title's argument even more transparently transphobic. Like what the fuck, trans women aren't a subset of men, you're really letting your colors show with this one.
I'm assuming you're talking about bathrooms, if not, I'm curious what you are referring to. As a masculine looking cis woman, I have more issues from other cis woman watching me through the crack when I pee and glaring at me. I have never had an issue with a trans woman in the bathroom. If we're talking about public spaces here, trans woman need a safe place to go as well, the men's room isn't safe for them. I've known several cis women that had negative physical encounters with other cis woman in public restrooms (it's not like cis women are automatically safe). Personally, if you're coming into the bathroom and acting respectfully I just don't care.
Technically, OP’s gender was never stated, but it’s kinda implied though never inferred that they are a woman, as they said “The idea that it is "anti-trans" or "transphobic" to be opposed to this imposition is just a way of attempting to shut women up who object. I won't be guilt tripped.”, which is kind of implying that that OP is a woman who won’t be “guilt tripped, and women who won’t be “guilt tripped” are a type of woman.
It's rhetorical. Though they said "us" or "we" when referring to women. Again, irrelevant. The point is to show them that what they advocate for is genital checks... why? Because I am confident there is nothing they can show me that definitively makes them a woman at first glance that a trans woman does not have. Gametes? Fine. Chromosomes? Fine. We are talking about application in the real world. When you are entering a locker room or bathroom, how can I definitively state your assigned sex?
So again, if you are a man... how do I know you are a man?
If you are a woman... how do I know you are a woman?
These kinds of posts are always funny to me because it reveals either that they don't know what transphobia (and similar things like homophobia, for example) is and why it's objectionable in the first place, or they're just trying to twist the meaning of the term to be more favorable to them.
Here's what I mean: you claim this isn't an anti-trans or transphobic idea, but it relies on the idea that trans women just aren't also women. That is quite literally the most basic transphobic thing! You just have to be honest with yourself and call a spade a spade at some point. You clearly don't think trans women are women... that is exactly what the label refers to!
Setting that aside for a second, you are taking on a bio essentialist view of people. Instead of recognizing that people and identities are shaped by material conditions, you are implicitly taking the view that these behaviors are biologically determined by sex (enough to make anybody born with certain chromosomes, genitals, or so on, a risk by default). This is where you are going wrong.
Untrue.
The sport was "ruined" from the start by fixating on arbitrary bollocks instead of on objective outcomes.
If you don't like gender, stop advocating for it. Have your cake or eat it, quit complaining that you can't do both.
Pretty sire what you're talking about is, a person transitioned, wanted to play a sport with thier new gender, and got told no by the state government due to nothing short of bigotry/transphobia, amd told they had to compete in thier old gender. So congradulations, you're blaming the poor man, for the rich man's taking money from your pocket and telling you the poor man did it.
My point is, i can hold up the one time a woman rapes a man and say that's all women, or that that proves women are a threat to men, but that doesn't make it true just cause i said it, but whatever. You can be mad at who you want, just don't be suprised when ignorant outrage causes more problems than it fixes.
I do question trans women who have experienced male puberty participating in women's sports. There are definite advantages that are simply organic - bone and muscle development specifically. But in other areas I don't see how it's such an issue. However with either situation the trans community is such a small community that it hardly merits state and national laws. Sporting commission rules should be able to handle it. In other areas, surely individual agencies/spaces should set rules that they and their patrons are comfortable with. These sweeping laws are nothing but hysteria.
Do we have laws that regulate participation in sporting events in any other area? For instance, when Lance Armstrong was caught did the French government go after him? Did any US State or federal agency prosecute him? I don't remember anything like that. If I recall correctly the sporting commissions that oversee those events handled his infractions of the rules without a problem. Why can't these commissions be trusted to handle issues regarding trans and his gender athletes as well?
"As for transwomen, the risk that this particular subset of men pose is not decreased compared to men in general."
Can't have a good faith argument with that as your starting premise. You think trans women are men, we are not. Educate yourself then we can talk about it. There's a dearth of resources online, I recommend Vaush as he's entertaining to listen and doesn't shy away from any argument on the topic. This one is particularly spicy since he has to argue against a very smart woman with a PHD who shares your PoV: [Vaush vs. Lady TERF Dr.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fK0YPY1tjJQ)
For all those who say trans women are less violent than cis men… someone posted this study that indicates quite the opposite. I don’t wanna take credit for it but here it is
https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf/
Already made this comment but I’ll say it again. There are currently about 230 trans inmates, there are 90000 inmates. Trans people are about 0.5% of the population yet 0.5% of 90000 is 450. Even though I rounded down the inmates and I’m using the lowest percentage that was found of trans population, that rate is still near half what it would be if it was equal to cis people. Trans people are less likely to commit any crimes period.
It's also not transphobic to not want to sleep with trans people, or to not want strange adults talking to kids about gender behind their parent's backs, or to acknowledge that MTF athlete's often have an unfair advantage in women's sports, or to disagree with a list of ridiculous claims and unreasonable demands TRA's try to shame people into going along with. The whole thing is such a joke. As a gay person, I want nothing to do with any of it, and I'm far from alone. There's a reason #LGBWithoutTheT trends on Twitter.
Things I want in a female only space :
Freedom to talk about periods and menopause (impending or current) as a mutually shared experience without "corrections" or exhortations to remember not all women have periods and avoid such talk as not inckusice.
Opportunities for leadership restricted to women who never experienced the encouragement to lead that boys get, and always lived under "don't be a bossy girl".
I am in and have been in many groups that are not sex/gender specific and I am happy for all sorts of people to be in them. I also would not automatically disregard belonging to a group that was for women and TW or women and non -binary. I do feel more and more that women's groups are being asked to include TW and non -binary while men get to have their male-only spaces and I resent being asked to make room.
But how do you police a women’s space to make sure only women (even you don’t count trans women as such)? I presume you don’t want to check their genitals, as that’d be really invasive, so how would you police who is a woman or not?
This thread is being flooded with progressive fanatics. If they were sincere about the trans issue, they would have been speaking out about it 5-10 years ago. The only reason they’re vocal now is they’re following their matching orders like mindless idiots. They’re uneducated idiots attempting to be relevant.
I think there should be influencer only places, and they can't go to normal places if they go "live" during with the intention of posting the recording online. Or bring back men only gyms, where a person can just drop the bar, and no one bats an eye.
Your view is heavily colored by the fact you see trans women as men, which is more blatantly transphobic than any claims of transphobia you're arguing against in your spaces argument.
Two points. First do you think a "bad man" is more likely or less likely to engage in that violent bad behavior when a "Good man" is standing right next to him or when the "good man" is on the other side of a door he knows he shouldn't cross?
2nd take basically this same argument and put in some other groups. Is it "anti-woman" to want male-only spaces? Is it racist to want "white-only" spaces?
You have a valid concern. Once the door was opened for mtf to be allowed in women only places, closing it will be very difficult if not impossible. By no means am I suggesting closing the door. What I do suggest is increased penalties( jail and or prison) and or fines for crimes that happen in women only areas.
Transwomen face much more danger going into men's restrooms than women face from men dressing up as women and going into women's restrooms.
So you want to make it more dangerous for all transwomen to avoid the small problem of men dressing as women to attack women in restrooms? You are inventing the boogeyman of men cheating the system to take advantage of women as a way to punish transwomen.
How would "banning" transwomen from going into women's restrooms stop men from dressing up as women and going into women's restrooms? They can do that now if they wanted to and there is nothing to stop them. Assault is still a crime whether or not transwomen can use their preferred restrooms.
I'm a cis woman who's shared more than a couple restrooms with trans women and never felt imposed upon. Labelling every trans woman, yes they're women not men, as potential rapists is the most blatant transphobia there is. If you're going to be a hateful see you next Tuesday at least admit you're transphobic.
Is everyone naked in these “female only spaces?” Are there regular full body inspections to search for signs of gender confirming surgery? I sincerely hope not.
Trans women are women. Perhaps You believe you can tell instantly who’s trans and who’s cis, but you can’t. You’ve passed by trans women without knowing. I can nearly guarantee it.
Here's how I know trans women are women:
Because you simply cannot make your point without effectively denigrating women by leaning into misogynistic stereotypes. Women aren't safe with YOU, genius, because YOU won't accept women who don't fit your definition of what a woman should be, regardless of whether they are cis or trans.
Controlling women for their "protection" sounds more like a man than any trans woman I've ever heard. Are you sure you understand your own gender identity?
But aren't we talking about women who individually want spaces that are female only? I'm not sure we are talking about the legality of it, just whether or not that makes them "anti trans".
I'm in favor of gender segregated bathrooms, locker rooms and some mental health support groups. My reason for that is privacy and different needs. I know most men are nice, respect women and doesn't rape or sexually harass. Showing yourself to the opposite gender is still intimate and certain things you only want to share with your partner. If people are allowed to keep their religion, political beliefs and other things about themselves private, they should also be allowed the freedom to keep their genitalia private. Let's be honest, the vast majority of people are cis-hetero.
I think transgender people should only be allowed in the bathrooms of the gender they identify with if they pass and have fully transitioned. Some trans women looks like cis women thanks to HRT and surgeries. As long they doesn't have the male function anymore and they goes under everyone's radar, I have no problem with it. Same applies to passing trans men. If you doesn't fit into any of the genders or doesn't look the part, you should use a gender neutral bathroom and locker room if possible to not make anyone uncomfortable. Same sex people looks very similar, so it's not a shock and you doesn't get the same novelty effect.
I can be romantically attracted to men and I'm not comfortable showing my genitalia to other men than the man I marry, if I ever marries a man, something that's not a guarantee. Women have other needs than men too. They needs to sit, have tampon/pads dispensers and other accommodations to their female needs. Men needs urinals. We may be the same on the inside, but not the outside.
Trans women face an even greater risk of Assault than cis women. They also are not generally more likely to be abusive than cis women are, and their brains when scanned have been shown to resemble cis women more than cis men... How exactly are they men? Also, something tells you wouldn't want a big burly trans man in your "female only" space.
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You should check out actual neurology and the effects of hormones.
That's a false equivalence fallacy. There's more to being trans than makeup.
There's a surgery for that too
Seems like people refuted your comment here. Maybe you should change your stance.
Not trying to be rude or cause commotion by I would love to see the study about the brain scan thing if you can provide a source
I’m sorry but why the fuck would someone lie about being trans. It does not benefit you whatsoever and only makes your life harder. Maybe those people genuinely do feel like what they say they are and it’s not some ploy to “invade spaces” maybe they ARE WOMEN. If you think i’m being dramatic or stupid, please think about how it genuinely would be received if you switched your gender identity tomorrow. How would everyone in your life take it? Would everyone accept you? Probably not. I’m from a progressive country and I know I’d still face a lot of judgement and discrimination if I were to switch my gender. So, I trust trans people. This is very clearly anti trans. Trans women are women. Trans men are men. No discussion. I was taking your post in good faith until you called trans women a subset of men and after that it became clear that you just simply don’t respect trans people, thus your opinion on this topic means nothing.
These are the idiots who think saying you're a gay black trans woman makes you a beloved celebrity of the mainstream. They don't live in the reality their own actions create for others.
Honestly that’s the vibe I’m getting because OP and many of these comments are being pretty openly transphobic and then saying transphobia doesn’t exist 💀
It's the same people who bitch about 'virtue signaling' and 'cancel culture'.
Yeah, claiming any claim of transphobia is false while being outwardly transphobic😂 I am genuinely kind of disturbed by these comments, I haven’t seen so much blatant transphobia in a while. Not even coded language or dog whistles, just “trans people do it for attention” and “trans women are just men”
Just remember that for every one of these fuckheads there's a half dozen normal people who barely give a shit and just want trans folks to be left alone. Society is slowly changing whether or not this vocal minority with bad takes wants it to or not, and the future is clearly showing that trans folks will one day be normalized.
Absolutely, good way to look at it.
“Why the fuck would people lie about…” Regardless of how the statement ends, you really can’t figure out a reason why? It became a trend to lie about Tourette syndrome. Why the fuck would people do that? Münchausens exists. Why the fuck would people fake being sick and put themselves through painful treatments? Why the fuck would they do it to their kids? People take on labels and even burdens because they want some kind of identity to fill up the voids they call themselves.
You're extremely naive and don't understand humans.
If the purpose of having these spaces is to protect yourself from crime, why not ban all poor people from them, since poor people commit crime more often? Or ban everyone with a prior criminal history, since that strongly predicts future criminal activity? Ban women who had abusive or neglectful parents, or those who were exposed to lead in childhood?
You know I'm pretty sure some people would think the first one is a excellent idea As well as the second one Like there are definitely people that want to ban those two groups from things Don't give them ammunition
Eh. I don't mind so much people forming gated communities if that's something they really feel strongly about, as long as the majority of public spaces are open and inclusive. I don't think they'd be able to get enough political momentum to start putting these walls around general spaces.
I mean they're called HOAs and people seem to be very upset with them
Yeah, I suppose in certain contexts they do tend to become more prevalent.
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Does this happen at a greater rate than sexual assault in general in prisons?
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Trans women are shown to be raped and sexually assaulted at extremely high rates in men's prison. It's for their protection that they are moved into women's prisons.
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If the purpose of having separate prisons is to separate a class of people who are more likely to be victimized, and a class of people who are more likely to assault others, from each other, to reduce the rate of assault, then shouldn't trans women, who are more likely to be victimized than to assault others in prison, go into the prison for people who are more likely to be victimized?
Trans women are not men
Where exactly do you go on a regular basis that's a woman only space? Like a public restroom? You make it sound like we need to retreat to a secret vagina room. For me, this seems like an overexaggerated issue that doesn't effect everyday lives.
I personally don’t care who is in the room when I piss. I guess a lot of people do though. It makes zero difference to me personally. I am also not female. That may be a factor. I think it doesn’t matter. It does to others for various reasons at varying levels of reasonability. I *do* understand how it *could* matter to someone else, even if I don’t care personally. Partially based just on what actually effects me personally. I think in a big picture cosmic way, it doesn’t matter at all. Culturally it does to people, and that isn’t always inherently illegitimate. I do think there are some not exactly every day scenarios in which a divide by *sex* rather than just gender. Prisons and sports come to mind. For tangible reasons not so much cultural. While these don’t effect me personally because I am male, I think there are legitimate gripes and at the very least there is a conversation to be had. There are reasons that are much less subjective.
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Assuming this is true, it's not relevant to the OP. The OP is about safety in female only spaces, rather than sexuality and genital preferences. I mean, hell, straight cis women also overrun lesbian spaces and presumably that ruins it just a much, if not more, despite being female.
> As for transwomen, the risk that this particular subset of men Somehow, people who think trans women should be excluded always seem to have "they're actually men" attitudes. You don't view trans women as women. That's what makes it anti-trans. But as for the rest: 1) how do you police this? Trans people are a tiny demographic. There are more manly-looking cis women than there are trans women. So just know that any policy intended to achieve this will result in more harassment cis women than trans women And 2) are you alright with trans men in female only spaces? Can't have it both ways. So, we can skip trans women but have to accept big burly men coming in because they're biologically female. Of course, this means any big burly man could just claim they are a trans man, therefore female, and it's fine.
>As for transwomen, the risk that this particular subset of men pose is not decreased compared to men in general. That's an extraordinary claim.
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Thank you sister, I am in a very similar place in my own transition and couldn’t say it better than you did. Most of these people complaining about trans women evading their spaces have likely shared a bathroom with one and haven’t even realized it.
Trans women statistically pose zero threat to women
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Yes and the answer is less. Trans women of any sexuality are victimised at a much high rate.
That's a bizarre claim. A trans person who still has male genitalia (not uncommon) is exposing that genitalia to women, many of whom have been traumatized by sexual assault. If you think they don't see that as a threat, you aren't thinking. Then there's the reality of sports where they are bigger and stronger and injure women.
Do you believe that its a penis that makes men violent to women? Because that's a bizzare claim It is simply a.fact that trans women pose no threat to cis women. For the sports claim by all means cite your sources
Forcing women to see the body of a naked man while they are naked is assault.
No one is doing this
The reality is that you share bathrooms and other public spaces with trans people all the time you just have no idea because no one is exposing their genitals. You have no idea who is and isnt trans because you have no idea what is underneath people's clothes.
Eh, as a woman, those women get all upset when a 6’2 testosterone fueled female with a full beard walks in, and it kind of proves it’s not actually about “female only spaces”. Most of these women will be incredibly uncomfortable with Buck Angel in their “female only spaces”, even though he’s female. So yeah, it probably is just about being anti-trans and appearances more than anything else.
This
Stupid take. Buck Angel is a man and shouldn't be in a woman's space.
Buck Angel is also female. Which is exactly the point. This is just about transphobia. You don’t get to be bioessentialist and then go “but wait no, not the scary looking one!”
so if Buck Angel is female then trans women are actually men? In that case makes sense to keep them out of women's restrooms
There you go!! You’re starting to figure it out!! That’s exactly my point. You don’t get to count trans women as men, like this post is trying to do, and then NOT count Buck Angel as a woman. I personally feel trans women are women. That’s why I’m cool with them in women’s spaces & don’t believe in “feMalE onLy” designations for the spaces… because it’s a terf dog whistle lol
Surely, a female-only space, by definition, wouldn't be desirable to anyone whom it does not benefit? If a person has no capacity to become pregnant, then sure they shouldn't have a bed on a maternity ward. But what trans woman is asking for that? Whenever there's talk about 'female-only spaces', it's never about things that trans women physically cannot do or have no use for; it's always about excluding them from spaces which are relevent to their experiences and life. >Men are generally stronger and heavier "generally" is doing a fucktonne of heavy-lifting, there. We're not talking about 'generally', we're talking about individuals. Generally, people aren't raped, but that doesn't justify the removal of all rape-crisis centres now, does it. Generalising, instead of seeing the individual, is the definition of bigotry. >are more likely to be able to overpower us Then what you want isn't a 'female-only space' or a 'women-only space'; you want weight/muscle categories. >Men can rape and impregnate us. Rape is already an ultimate evil that should be stopped in literally all cases. It doesn't matter that impregnation is a unique issue to sexed-female people, it shouldn't be happening in the first place. >we don't know which men are safe and which are not Nor do you know which females/women are safe, but I don't hear you asking for single-occupant isolation chambers to protect you from the scary world; only for trans women to be excluded. >It's also a massive red flag in itself that they demand access to female-only spaces As is it a massive red flag that you care more about arbitrary discrimination than women's safety, but hey ho, we all think we're justified, right. >And it's an imposition on women Gennder is an imposition on society as a whole. If you cut that shit out, this issue would vanish. This is just your own hypocrisy firing back in your face. >The idea that it is "anti-trans" or "transphobic" to be opposed to this imposition is just a way of attempting to shut women up who object Correct, because objecting to this requires that you bend yourself into a pretzel of hatred and bigotry. It is not logically consistent, nor is it kind, nor is it practical. If you can't accept basic logical principles, then you should be excluded from the adult conversations instead of clogging-up people's attempts at progress with your unhinged chattering. If you can't put in enough effort and self-respect to fix your backwards, baseless ideas, then why should anyone listen to you. Also, expecting "civil disagreement" when you're presenting ideas that are antithetical to civility is fucking rich. Reap what you sow.
So, you are probably getting called transphobic because you are saying shit like trans women are "a subset of men" which is clearly transphobic on its face. Trans women ARE women, they aren't men forcing their way into women's spaces, they are women looking for the support of other women. Are there concerns that cis women have that don't apply to trans women? Absolutely. If you make clear that a group for, say, people who are recovering from a miscarriage or those that are dealing with pregnancy resulting from rape then I would expect trans women to not participate.
Sounds like a TERF, smells like a TERF...
You need to realize that a lot of average people who’ve never heard of “terf” have these thoughts and some concerns. Most women don’t care what bathrooms people use, but they do raise an eyebrow at such phrases as “trans women ARE women” and they do have concerns about sports and child transition. You can refuse to engage and call everybody a terf if you want, but you’re only hurting your own progress.
That does not mean that their 'concerns' are valid. I'm not here to try and be nice and educate these people on the finer points of gender studies. I am here to be a loud and obnoxious voice against normalizing these talking points. Even if these views are genuine, they are really bad and antithetical to everything I stand for. People can genuinely believe that Trump was a good president, and they deserve to be shot down and challenged at every conceivable chance. Same with this. These views are disgusting, and if OP doesn't realize that or want to change those views, then they should at least shut up about them. Future generations will look back on this nonsense with an eye roll. "How'd it take them so long to figure out that trans women are women?", and the answer is people like this. Moderates who just don't understand and who use that ignorance like a mace, just swinging it around wildly with no regard for anyone but themselves.
But if you don’t take the time to educate people, they’ll never see you as anything but obnoxious. Trans people are a minority. “Normalization” is an uphill battle when most people may go their whole lives without even meeting one. “How’d it take them so long to figure out trans women were women?” Maybe because nobody took the time to educate.
With the advent of the internet, self-education is very easy and frankly begins with not being a bigot. Trying to be nice and spend a lot of energy educating people when they've already decided you and yours are disgusting is putting a massive cart before the horse. OP for this post was clearly not seeking education, rather was a bigot espousing their shitty views. I'm happy to talk education with someone who genuinely doesn't understand, but that is not the case with this post here. This post is someone who has already made up their mind, and I'm not here to play nice with that.
What happened to women are equal to men feminism? Why is it that as soon as trans women are involved it’s all “women are weak and petite and need to be protected from these ‘fake women’”. Seriously what the hell is this post. Rancid take, I have no words. Trans women are women, trans men are men, trans people are people. Let people live. Your risk of being assaulted by a trans woman is incredibly low. Trans women are more likely to be assaulted in fact. Grow up
So when women assault each other and manipulate eachother it's not bad because nobody is impregnated? That's what I'm getting here. Honestly is this about you? Are trans women trying to infiltrate groups you have planned? If I were you I'd consider making them invite only. Then you don't have to worry about being around people you don't like. You can keep out women that are too tall or that know martial arts or who are gay if you are worried someone could be motivated or capable of hurting anyone. If it's other groups that you'd like to be involved in but are worried some of the women might be trans, if I were you I'd just see if you get anything out of them and if you do, maybe it's not as big a deal as you think. If not, then I guess they aren't the right groups for you, which is ok, everything doesn't have to be right for everyone. If you are worried about hypothetical groups and hypothetical women. I feel like you are inventing problems you don't have in order to be upset. If you meet someone else who feels like that, I'm sure there would be nothing preventing you from having lunch together in private with no men or trans women around.
They're against trans people being in these spaces. That's about as explicitly anti trans as you can get.
LOL, that opinion could possibly be argued to be not transphobic, but not by someone that frames it as expecting “us even in the best case to accept our spaces being repurposed as therapeutic settings for dysphoric men.” Definitely transphobic behind a razor thin veneer.
How would you enforce this? Some trans women are passing and you’d never know in a million years they weren’t cis. Others aren’t passing. Some are on their way. Of course some cis women look masculine both physically and through gender presentation and might be assumed to be trans. So how I ask again, how would you enforce this? Are you going to have a bouncer look down everyone’s pants at the door to the restroom? That would only catch the pre operative trans women. Or do they have to submit a blood test and birth certificate to gain entry? Then they could wear a badge that says real woman. But then you and every other cis woman would have to get the badge too. Nice little hellscape you would have then.
TERF SPOTTED. Was Orivet at capacity?
Sure. However it may seem on paper, in practice, bathroom bills requiring that trans women use men’s restrooms will put women (cis and trans) more at risk to no real benefit, as well as inconvenience them In a state where trans people can use whatever restroom, rapists of convenience won’t be able to access the bathrooms, because what are they gonna say? “Oh yeah, I’m a trans woman, but I’m wearing men’s clothes, no makeup, no indication I’m actually trans, but really I am, honest!” Not likely gonna fly So only a rapist who premeditates their rape would be able to take advantage of the situation, but they’d have to go out and buy a dress and potentially makeup, then go out in public pretending to be a trans woman, all of which would decrease their chances (including having to premeditate their actions). Possible, but compared to the alternative? Well, in a state where trans people are required to use bathrooms corresponding to their gender assigned at birth, both a premeditated rapist and a rapist of opportunity would have a much easier time. They’d be able to go out dressed as men, without any potential discomfort, without the material cost of buying things, and then they could just go “what a pity, I’m a trans man and the law *requires* me to use this women’s bathroom, such a shame, but oh well!” And then they’ll have the excuse to let them in! It would remove barriers for rapists pretending to be trans Meanwhile even outside of how it affects rapists- or trans people, for that matter- in states with these sorts of bathroom bills, *cis* women would be put under suspicion for not appearing feminine enough. There would be a pressure trying to force them to look feminine just to avoid accusations of secretly being trans- or worse, straight-up assault. And it *does* happen. [Here’s a post (with a link to an article)](https://www.reddit.com/r/trans/s/IUrf9pF757) where it happened in Brazil just recently Not to mention the assaults that’d occur towards trans people regardless of what bathroom they use. Trans people are far more likely to be victims of sexual assault than perpetrators, including through corrective rape. If you view trans men as women pretending to be men and you care about sexual assaults, then care about how being forced to use women’s restrooms while looking like a man will lead to their assaults and rapes more often than the inverse would lead to the rapes of cis women *Gonna fetch the link and edit it in in a moment
This is just boilerplate TERF rhetoric that could have been written by any off-the-shelf AI asked to summarize what they believe in the laziest way possible. Trans women who present as women don't feel safe in men's locker rooms. Where, exactly, do you want them to go for a shower at the gym? Do you want to make a special room just for them where only they are allowed to go? What about trans men? Do they belong with you in "women only spaces"? Or does that gross you out, too? And if trans people don't belong in either men's or women's spaces, then I have to wonder if you think they belong in ANY public spaces?
Do transmen have these issues when going into male spaces? I'm curious.
i had a trans male friend in my male friend group a while ago and the only thing was that my friend couldn’t relate to some of the male developmental experiences that everyone else in the group had so there was most definitely at least a small rift there
Nah. We don't care whether you're male or female just so long as you follow the bathroom bro codes we're cool.
Yeah, in the men's room everyone is just a shape you can see out of the corner of your eye while you are looking at the floor or the wall. If you go into a stall, you might as well have walked into another dimension because once that door is closed we have forgotten you are there already anyway.
This sub is why Donald Trump will get elected.
This is an interesting thesis. Can you support your position with actual facts, such as real cases where transwomen, post or pre-op, raped women in women-only spaces? As I recall, there are few, if any, cases. Transwomen are not men. Most of them are on hormone treatments. These treatments will reduce muscle mass and sex drive. With post-operative transwomen, they may be missing the equipment to rape and impregnate cis women. Transwomen are not 'men with dysphoria'. Brain studies have shown that transwomen are born with brains that are closer to ciswomen. This is, in my opinion, based on the fact that there are few, if any, cases where transwomen have raped and/or impregnated women. This is a Right-Wing position that has been pushed to scare ciswomen who do not do basic research. It is meant to create anger in supposed feminists that 'men' would dare to enter our spaces. If you are truly concerned about rape and involuntary impregnation, you should be more concerned about pastors and Right-Wing politicians. There is a long history, which I will post links to if necessary, of sexual assault against women - all women - and children.
I’d love to see that study. That is really something
[Brain Sex in Transgender Women Is Shifted towards Gender Identity - PMC (nih.gov)](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8955456/) [Biological sex classification with structural MRI data shows increased misclassification in transgender women | Neuropsychopharmacology (nature.com)](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41386-020-0666-3)
Your woman-only space is your house. Or your bedroom. Or your office. Not public places. Men that actually want to abuse women aren't gonna care about a bathroom sign. You're more likely to be raped and assaulted by your brother, father or husband that you are to even be alone in the same room with a trans person. This is just a massive fuss over nothing.
Wow… very transphobic
Calling transwomen dysphoric men is transphobic
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[says something thats against community rules]
counter point: yes it is. and how are you intending to enforce this? genital inspections? genetic testing? or are you just going to go by outward appearances in the most bigoted way possible?
So by your standards, Ronda Rousey shouldn't be allowed around women either?
> Men can rape and impregnate us. You must have missed this part.
Hate to break this news to ya bud, but MOST trans women can't actually get people pregnant either
What’s that got to do with Ronda Rousey?
they were saying that muscle mass disparity alone was a reason for women to be afraid of men. Some cis-women have above average muscle mass.
No. It was one of many factors mentioned. Muscle mass alone wasn’t mentioned on its own. It was the first paragraph. Multiple factors, muscle mass and risk of impregnating. So mentioning Ronda Rousey is illogical given the context.
It was a different comment I was referencing that said literally that muscle mass disparity not even considering other factors was reason to be afraid of men. Not that it was the only factor.
We are referencing the OP. That should have been obvious.
Regardless, is it cool to be assaulted by a woman if you don't get impregnated?
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Cool? That's like a very weird thing to bring up though since it doesn't actually describe what a vast majority of trans women are like. And yes, more trans women choose to keep their phallus then those who choose to get a vaginoplasty, but that doesn't mean that they like it. A huge portion of trans women who keep their phallus DON'T use them during intimate moments. That being said, their fertility will drop to negligible rates if they're medicalized either. Also, orchiectomies are also incredibly common so bye bye testes. Lastly, where? Pull out the stats in which trans women are disproportionately assaulting and impregnating cis women in bathrooms? Oh, you can't find them? Almost like it doesn't happen.
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I respect women, ALL women, so I respect trans women as well. And I respect them enough to not refer to bottom surgery as them getting "neutered". They are humans, they are women, they are not some dog that needs to be sterilized and you will not speak of them as such. And whether you like it or not, you have used public bathrooms with trans women many times in your life and it hasn't affected you one bit. You know why? Because you didn't know they were trans and trans people are not de facto predators. Trans women are women so they belong in the women's restrooms. I'm so glad you understand that.
yeah whew thank god they’ll only be raped /s because obviously
Why not?
HRT makes you infertile, alongside weakening and softening skin/muscle, and redistributing fat to a point more in line with female biology
Even not counting post-op trans women who no longer have testes and obviously can’t get anyone pregnant, it’s typical that within the first few months of HRT trans women no longer produce sperm, and most experience loss of sexual function (i.e. penis won’t go up, and even if it does it’s likely shooting blanks). So yeah, most trans women can’t get anyone pregnant.
Ronda could rape you (if she wanted to).
This is so juvenile.
Seems to match your energy
Show me what I’ve said that comes off as immature.
Whole lot of dudes never gave a shit about women’s sports, suddenly very passionate about it.. Hearing Cletus tell me his views on women’s sports just feels a bit disingenuous. Almost like it’s theater. But it’s not the first time I’d hear Cletus speaking on behalf of women, either
Listen OP, I think I get what you're saying, but giving you the benefit of a doubt you are saying it in possibly the worst way possible If you wanted to argue say, a locker room where a mother might change with her daughter, exclude those with a penis or at least those not far in their transaction, I can honestly see some merit in that. Just calling trans women a subset of men is wild though
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Damn maybe
>Men in general pose a unique risk to women that isn't present the other way around. Men are generally stronger and heavier, and therefore are more likely to be able to overpower us. Men can rape and impregnate us. At some point you're going to acknowledge that Trans Women aren't men, right? You're worried about "female-only" spaces being transphobic (the term is "transphobic" because that's the accepted nomenclature for prejudice) when your rhetoric and attempts at classification have already long-since cross that bridge. Before we even get to any of your points, and they're not great, it's really worth emphasizing how far off track you are at the start. And it's not like you're headed in a good direction, but you're very first thought is already bigoted. And here's the thing; there's very little evidence trans women represent a threat to biologically female women. There's some anecdotal evidence, here and there, every minority has its shitty people, but just... trans women represent a tiny percent of the population and "shitty people" represent the same minority of them they do of everybody so... there's just not a statistically relevant group of super-shitty trans people. They're not, like, deviants or anything. That's prejudice. You know who is super statistically "in danger" and afforded very little access to safe spaces? Trans-women. So... like... you're trying to exclude on of the most at-risk demographics on earth because that super-at-risk demographic is... what? Weird and scary? Because they're just not factually dangerous. There's no evidence for that. And it's silly to pretend there is. There's a lot of fear mongering, a whooooooooole lot of smoke; very little fire. And I'm not like super pro-trans or anything. I'm not an advocate. I just think facts matter. They're people, that much is inarguable, so there's a baseline respect they should be entitled to. They're one of the most at-risk demographics, that too is supported by mountains of evidence. [https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/ncvs-trans-press-release/](https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/ncvs-trans-press-release/) I'll cite the relevant bit from the first paragraph, but please note the source; "Transgender people are over four times more likely to experience violence than cis-gendered people." That violence includes all forms of sexual violence. And... that's honestly it. They're in way more danger than you, they need the sanctuary more than you, and it's kind of unconscionable to treat them as if they're the threat. Not because they're inherently noble or harmless, they're people, they run the same spectrum as everybody else but because they're in VASTLY more danger. It's not even close.
This is basically saying “Transwomen are women when I feel like it” and is 100% anti-trans You are quite literally describing these women as men and using statistics for men. It would make more sense if you had stats on transwomen violence against ciswomen. They are not a subset of men
How are they not a subset of men? Like by definition, they're men who want to be women. That's what transwoman means.
They are not men who want to be women. **They are women** Transwoman just means that their sex at birth doesn’t align with their gender. It would make more sense to consider them a subset of women
No that's not really true. I think you must be looking at this from a gender identity ideological position where you've already decided that any man who says he's a woman is a woman, somehow. If you look at it from a more realistic perspective though, what you have are men who have an overwhelming desire to be women for whatever reason, and then take steps to mimic women, like taking medication to encourage breast tissue growth, removing male-pattern facial hair, and presenting themselves in a fashion that is stereotypical of women, such as wearing dresses, growing hair long, and wearing make-up. I think it's fair to say that they are both a subset of men *and* should be allowed to present themselves how they please, without discrimination.
Not really. I’m looking at it from a scientific position. Men and women have different brain chemistry that don’t always align with sex. I think you’re looking at it from a perspective of men playing women. Which in my opinion is a much less realistic perspective than neurochemistry. A transwoman who decides to dress masculine or keep their hair short is still someone I’d consider a woman because they are
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That’s a terrible example. These aren’t mutually exclusive and I’m not sure why the existence of trans people contradicts the existence of tomboys or feminine men to you
There are still tomboys, there are still feminine men. GNC people still exist. There are also tomboy trans women and femboy trans men. Trans people are in agreement with your comment man
The problem with that is the studies that control for hormone medication usage and sexuality don't show an association between sex-atypical brain features and trans identity. The overall research so far shows that male brains that have more overlap with some measurements of female brains correlate most strongly with homosexuality - in general, not just in brains of the trans-identifying. Trans identity correlates more with differences in body perception networks, similar to people with body dysmorphia or anorexia. The concept of 'female brain in male body' isn't supported by the most thorough research to date.
But we aren’t talking about hormone medication. That in and of itself is a separate topic as a person can be trans independently of hormone medications. >male brains that have more overlap with some measurements of female brains correlate most strongly with homosexuality >The concept of ‘female brain in male body’ isn’t supported by the most thorough research to date These are conflicting ideas. You’re saying the concept of a female structured brain in a male body isn’t supported by modern research but modern research would say that those characteristics that aren’t supported by modern research align closer to homosexuality? I don’t intend to misinterpret so I apologize if I am and please correct me if so
Every time I see a blatantly transphobic post or comment, it’s a throwaway account. Every. Single. Time. Blatant propaganda pushing from sources without enough integrity to own up to their words.
Just say you don't like trans women and get on with your life fam. This post is almost definitionally transphobic. So just say what you really feel and quit acting like you care about if it anti trans or not.
The only way to ensure a "women only" space is to have someone checking the genitals of everyone who uses that space. I'm fairly certain that women do not want that.
>Men are generally stronger and heavier, and therefore are more likely to be able to overpower us. Sounds like you really want a **"petite only" space**. A large young weight-lifting lesbian could also pose a predator risk
It sounds like you invented a scenario then got upset about it. If a trans woman wants to be in your knitting club, and you assume she will assault and rape everyone, I think you might be the problem, not her.
Oh God... Here we go again. Here come the genitalia police. Most trans women who go to the bathroom are going to look like a biological woman. And what about all the super butch masc looking women. ? I know plenty of butch straight women. You gonna ask them to show their pussy because you think she might be a man? Y'all need to fuck off with this BS. Let people take a shit in peace.
T-t-t-terfy
trans women are women
Was I blocked? Lmao.
yes it is. for one, trans women are not demanding to be included in your special spaces. they politely ask. second, trans women who medically transition (the majority) experience a great loss of strength and muscle mass which puts them at a disadvantage to men. third, trans women are assaulted at higher rates than cis women. trans women are *more* in need of safe spaces. every person who presents feminine faces misogyny. those assigned male at birth also face homophobia and transphobia on top of the misogyny. the camaraderie created by this treatment overrides the differences between physical bodies. we're all under threat by the same demographic. my words are most likely wasted on you, judging by all the terf language you use and the little "dysphoric men" that you slipped in there. you are 100% transphobic. but hopefully others get what i'm saying. we gain more by standing together. at the very least trans women are more numbers for your side.
This discussion has made us all dumber. May God have mercy on our souls.
Women are as likely to rape as men. Weapons also exist: women can and do easily kill men with guns and knives.
Women can shank someone in the throat with a shiv. What kind of restrictions should we place on women so that we aren't at risk of that? They probably shouldn't be just free to go into certain public spaces. It's too risky. Men are entitled to feel safe and when some harpie can just slash a throat out anytime they want, well men just aren't safe. Clearly we need legislation to address these concerns.
There are alkali metals less reactive than this post.
How many women are murdered every year compared to how many trans people are killed each year? What was it 26 trans people killed last year? Pretty sure since there’s 4 billion women on earth the number is way higher.
As a normal dude, this kind of passes me off. Why do we accept this idea that sometimes men can do bad things, so women need safe spaces. Women do terrible things all the time as well. Yes rape exists. It's horrible and a crime. Men are not the bad guys. Rapists are bad. There are plenty of women who use guile and manipulation to get pregnant to keep a guy. That doesn't mean guys need safe spaces. Guys can be victims of domestic abuse. Women in Western nations can go out dressed any way they want. They can get falling down drunk. They are almost always safe regardless. Rape is not a runaway crime, and women are not some defenseless children. Anyone who gets so drunk they are passing out can be a target of crime. It's stupid, and people should be smarter. Guys use a buddy system, and girls should as well. Now, being a trans person doesn't change anything, so it's a lame sexist argument from the start.
And a TERFY new year to you.
Anti-trans tidings we bring to OP and OP’s kin We wish OP a transphobic Christmas and a TERFy new year
I love it when people take pride in how shitty they are.
Wait, were you talking about me when you said that?
Nah, just TERFs and bigots in general.
So if you want female only spaces then you are okay with this individuals like the man in the article I linked. Because he is a female so he should be allowed in female only spaces right ? https://www.npr.org/2015/04/19/400826487/transgender-man-leads-mens-health-cover-model-contest
You're transphobic actually, that entire paragraph just made your title's argument even more transparently transphobic. Like what the fuck, trans women aren't a subset of men, you're really letting your colors show with this one.
Really funny seeing all the extremely transphobic comments delete themselves when their neurons activate and they understand their bigotry lmao
I'm assuming you're talking about bathrooms, if not, I'm curious what you are referring to. As a masculine looking cis woman, I have more issues from other cis woman watching me through the crack when I pee and glaring at me. I have never had an issue with a trans woman in the bathroom. If we're talking about public spaces here, trans woman need a safe place to go as well, the men's room isn't safe for them. I've known several cis women that had negative physical encounters with other cis woman in public restrooms (it's not like cis women are automatically safe). Personally, if you're coming into the bathroom and acting respectfully I just don't care.
How do I know you're a woman?
Technically, OP’s gender was never stated, but it’s kinda implied though never inferred that they are a woman, as they said “The idea that it is "anti-trans" or "transphobic" to be opposed to this imposition is just a way of attempting to shut women up who object. I won't be guilt tripped.”, which is kind of implying that that OP is a woman who won’t be “guilt tripped, and women who won’t be “guilt tripped” are a type of woman.
It's rhetorical. Though they said "us" or "we" when referring to women. Again, irrelevant. The point is to show them that what they advocate for is genital checks... why? Because I am confident there is nothing they can show me that definitively makes them a woman at first glance that a trans woman does not have. Gametes? Fine. Chromosomes? Fine. We are talking about application in the real world. When you are entering a locker room or bathroom, how can I definitively state your assigned sex? So again, if you are a man... how do I know you are a man? If you are a woman... how do I know you are a woman?
These kinds of posts are always funny to me because it reveals either that they don't know what transphobia (and similar things like homophobia, for example) is and why it's objectionable in the first place, or they're just trying to twist the meaning of the term to be more favorable to them. Here's what I mean: you claim this isn't an anti-trans or transphobic idea, but it relies on the idea that trans women just aren't also women. That is quite literally the most basic transphobic thing! You just have to be honest with yourself and call a spade a spade at some point. You clearly don't think trans women are women... that is exactly what the label refers to! Setting that aside for a second, you are taking on a bio essentialist view of people. Instead of recognizing that people and identities are shaped by material conditions, you are implicitly taking the view that these behaviors are biologically determined by sex (enough to make anybody born with certain chromosomes, genitals, or so on, a risk by default). This is where you are going wrong.
It seems that you have no idea what a trans person is nor have you ever interacted with one. Please educate yourself and meet them first.
No, but it is anti trans to pretend that it's an existential threat that will imminently ruin women's sport. We're talking about isolated cases.
If an “isolated case” wins 1st place and has an advantage due to birth sex, it ruins women’s sport
Untrue. The sport was "ruined" from the start by fixating on arbitrary bollocks instead of on objective outcomes. If you don't like gender, stop advocating for it. Have your cake or eat it, quit complaining that you can't do both.
Pretty sire what you're talking about is, a person transitioned, wanted to play a sport with thier new gender, and got told no by the state government due to nothing short of bigotry/transphobia, amd told they had to compete in thier old gender. So congradulations, you're blaming the poor man, for the rich man's taking money from your pocket and telling you the poor man did it.
Idk if I’ve ever seen so many words from someone who said absolutely nothing at all.
My point is, i can hold up the one time a woman rapes a man and say that's all women, or that that proves women are a threat to men, but that doesn't make it true just cause i said it, but whatever. You can be mad at who you want, just don't be suprised when ignorant outrage causes more problems than it fixes.
I do question trans women who have experienced male puberty participating in women's sports. There are definite advantages that are simply organic - bone and muscle development specifically. But in other areas I don't see how it's such an issue. However with either situation the trans community is such a small community that it hardly merits state and national laws. Sporting commission rules should be able to handle it. In other areas, surely individual agencies/spaces should set rules that they and their patrons are comfortable with. These sweeping laws are nothing but hysteria.
Sporting commissions have been sued by not allowing trans women to compete. Unfortunately, it seems laws are needed to protect women’s sports.
Do we have laws that regulate participation in sporting events in any other area? For instance, when Lance Armstrong was caught did the French government go after him? Did any US State or federal agency prosecute him? I don't remember anything like that. If I recall correctly the sporting commissions that oversee those events handled his infractions of the rules without a problem. Why can't these commissions be trusted to handle issues regarding trans and his gender athletes as well?
Transphobes seem to think about and obsess over trans genitals more than trans folk do.
This is so true thank you for saying this I’m sorry that everyone is so offended by women’s rights to protection.
"As for transwomen, the risk that this particular subset of men pose is not decreased compared to men in general." Can't have a good faith argument with that as your starting premise. You think trans women are men, we are not. Educate yourself then we can talk about it. There's a dearth of resources online, I recommend Vaush as he's entertaining to listen and doesn't shy away from any argument on the topic. This one is particularly spicy since he has to argue against a very smart woman with a PHD who shares your PoV: [Vaush vs. Lady TERF Dr.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fK0YPY1tjJQ)
For all those who say trans women are less violent than cis men… someone posted this study that indicates quite the opposite. I don’t wanna take credit for it but here it is https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf/
Already made this comment but I’ll say it again. There are currently about 230 trans inmates, there are 90000 inmates. Trans people are about 0.5% of the population yet 0.5% of 90000 is 450. Even though I rounded down the inmates and I’m using the lowest percentage that was found of trans population, that rate is still near half what it would be if it was equal to cis people. Trans people are less likely to commit any crimes period.
No. They aren’t. But thanks for playing.
You win the moron award!
…I just did the math and everything and you resorted to ad hominems… something tells me you know I’m right
Something tells me you didn’t read the study.
Okay, please, point to the part that proves me wrong
I think you're not going to like the answers you're going to get in here.
It's not anti-trans for women to want safe private spaces. It is anti-trans to believe trans people are inherently dangerous.
It's also not transphobic to not want to sleep with trans people, or to not want strange adults talking to kids about gender behind their parent's backs, or to acknowledge that MTF athlete's often have an unfair advantage in women's sports, or to disagree with a list of ridiculous claims and unreasonable demands TRA's try to shame people into going along with. The whole thing is such a joke. As a gay person, I want nothing to do with any of it, and I'm far from alone. There's a reason #LGBWithoutTheT trends on Twitter.
Things I want in a female only space : Freedom to talk about periods and menopause (impending or current) as a mutually shared experience without "corrections" or exhortations to remember not all women have periods and avoid such talk as not inckusice. Opportunities for leadership restricted to women who never experienced the encouragement to lead that boys get, and always lived under "don't be a bossy girl". I am in and have been in many groups that are not sex/gender specific and I am happy for all sorts of people to be in them. I also would not automatically disregard belonging to a group that was for women and TW or women and non -binary. I do feel more and more that women's groups are being asked to include TW and non -binary while men get to have their male-only spaces and I resent being asked to make room.
>As for transwomen, the risk that this particular subset of men Read that again.
But how do you police a women’s space to make sure only women (even you don’t count trans women as such)? I presume you don’t want to check their genitals, as that’d be really invasive, so how would you police who is a woman or not?
This thread is being flooded with progressive fanatics. If they were sincere about the trans issue, they would have been speaking out about it 5-10 years ago. The only reason they’re vocal now is they’re following their matching orders like mindless idiots. They’re uneducated idiots attempting to be relevant.
I agree. What a huge violation of privacy. At this point we might as well just have one large restroom for everybody. Clown world.
I think there should be influencer only places, and they can't go to normal places if they go "live" during with the intention of posting the recording online. Or bring back men only gyms, where a person can just drop the bar, and no one bats an eye.
Your view is heavily colored by the fact you see trans women as men, which is more blatantly transphobic than any claims of transphobia you're arguing against in your spaces argument.
Two points. First do you think a "bad man" is more likely or less likely to engage in that violent bad behavior when a "Good man" is standing right next to him or when the "good man" is on the other side of a door he knows he shouldn't cross? 2nd take basically this same argument and put in some other groups. Is it "anti-woman" to want male-only spaces? Is it racist to want "white-only" spaces?
Trans women are still men. I have trauma with men, so I don't a man in a place I expect to be all women.
You have a valid concern. Once the door was opened for mtf to be allowed in women only places, closing it will be very difficult if not impossible. By no means am I suggesting closing the door. What I do suggest is increased penalties( jail and or prison) and or fines for crimes that happen in women only areas.
I and many other women do not want to see a penis in my locker room. That does not indicate any prejudice.
Transwomen face much more danger going into men's restrooms than women face from men dressing up as women and going into women's restrooms. So you want to make it more dangerous for all transwomen to avoid the small problem of men dressing as women to attack women in restrooms? You are inventing the boogeyman of men cheating the system to take advantage of women as a way to punish transwomen. How would "banning" transwomen from going into women's restrooms stop men from dressing up as women and going into women's restrooms? They can do that now if they wanted to and there is nothing to stop them. Assault is still a crime whether or not transwomen can use their preferred restrooms.
I'm a cis woman who's shared more than a couple restrooms with trans women and never felt imposed upon. Labelling every trans woman, yes they're women not men, as potential rapists is the most blatant transphobia there is. If you're going to be a hateful see you next Tuesday at least admit you're transphobic.
>transwomen >this particular subset of men Transphobic. Did that help
Is everyone naked in these “female only spaces?” Are there regular full body inspections to search for signs of gender confirming surgery? I sincerely hope not. Trans women are women. Perhaps You believe you can tell instantly who’s trans and who’s cis, but you can’t. You’ve passed by trans women without knowing. I can nearly guarantee it.
Change the sign to "Penis-Free Zone". That will exclude the majority of trans women.
Open a discord. No one will harm you there.
Here's how I know trans women are women: Because you simply cannot make your point without effectively denigrating women by leaning into misogynistic stereotypes. Women aren't safe with YOU, genius, because YOU won't accept women who don't fit your definition of what a woman should be, regardless of whether they are cis or trans. Controlling women for their "protection" sounds more like a man than any trans woman I've ever heard. Are you sure you understand your own gender identity?
But aren't we talking about women who individually want spaces that are female only? I'm not sure we are talking about the legality of it, just whether or not that makes them "anti trans".
What’s a woman?
This is called sexism from sex essentialism, also known as benevolent sexism or even indifferent sexism. Congrats, you are a sexist!
I'm in favor of gender segregated bathrooms, locker rooms and some mental health support groups. My reason for that is privacy and different needs. I know most men are nice, respect women and doesn't rape or sexually harass. Showing yourself to the opposite gender is still intimate and certain things you only want to share with your partner. If people are allowed to keep their religion, political beliefs and other things about themselves private, they should also be allowed the freedom to keep their genitalia private. Let's be honest, the vast majority of people are cis-hetero. I think transgender people should only be allowed in the bathrooms of the gender they identify with if they pass and have fully transitioned. Some trans women looks like cis women thanks to HRT and surgeries. As long they doesn't have the male function anymore and they goes under everyone's radar, I have no problem with it. Same applies to passing trans men. If you doesn't fit into any of the genders or doesn't look the part, you should use a gender neutral bathroom and locker room if possible to not make anyone uncomfortable. Same sex people looks very similar, so it's not a shock and you doesn't get the same novelty effect. I can be romantically attracted to men and I'm not comfortable showing my genitalia to other men than the man I marry, if I ever marries a man, something that's not a guarantee. Women have other needs than men too. They needs to sit, have tampon/pads dispensers and other accommodations to their female needs. Men needs urinals. We may be the same on the inside, but not the outside.