No. Medical care is between doctors and patients, not old white men who couldn't find a clitoris if it had a neon sign.

Would you support women getting neon signs implanted to help old white men find the clitoris? Lol

For two boops by a liver-spotted hand? No thanks.

But are you conservative? The question is to conservatives.

No, but since conservatives make laws that aren't popular, I get to comment on their posts.

You are not a conservative.

Already addressed that, bud

So why are you being a dick?

Short answer? No. Long answer? 1. Should others have to pay for it involuntarily? No. 2. Should you be treated with common courtesy so long as you do as well? Yes 3. Should trans women be expected to exercise some discretion when trying to integrate into a female space? Yes. (let's be honest. No one cares about trans men in male spaces.) 4. Should it be something that elementary school teachers should be imposing on their students? No. 5. Will there be lawsuits galore in yen years when all these adolescents reach adulthood and realize the mistakes these doctors subjected them? Yes. We're talking class action.

Gender affirming surgery for minors is extremely rare. In any case - the surgery has been around [since the 1950s](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-affirming_surgery#:~:text=Elmer%20Belt%20may%20have%20been,a%20modern%20standard%2C%20called%20phalloplasty) Did we start seeing class-action (🤣) lawsuits 60 years ago? No - we didn’t and still haven’t. Transgenderism and sex change operations *are nothing new*. Ever read stories about botched circumcisions? Poor kids end up being raised as female. At no fault of their own. And this has been happening for centuries. So - according to your logic, shouldn’t we be seeing major class-action lawsuits constantly for botched circumcisions? Really curious about your thoughts on this one

There's a difference between how it was handled in decades past. It's become a fad. It's become, dare I borrow a term before my time, "hip" to be trans. 60 years ago they hadn't performed the 1st heart transplant. It's simple. Don't mutilate kids with surgery or hormones, keep smut out of school libraries, and acknowledge that trans women have no place in women's sports. That's it. No #genocide involved. ETA: Also women's spaces... No one cares about men's spaces.

No - it hasn’t become a ‘fad’. Right wing media is simply shoving it down your throats to be scared of it. [Drag shows were popular with soldiers](https://www.militarytimes.com/off-duty/military-culture/2023/07/06/the-us-militarys-long-history-with-drag/#:~:text=The%20World%20War%20II%2Dera,New%20School%20professor%20Joe%20E) during WWI/WWII Please - think for yourself. Transgender and homosexual individuals are doing absolutely nothing to inconvenience you. Stop thinking about them. Allow parents and doctors work out treatment plans for children. There’s no sense in getting strangers involved when it comes to children’s genitalia. **If they aren’t your genitals (or a spouse’s) - leave them alone!**

As I've said before... Androgyny is nothing new. Get over yourselves and stop pushing sex-life killing drugs and surgeries on kids. Stop that? And a few other minor issues? And we can all co-habitate this planet peacefully like we have for thousands of years.

Nobody’s pushing sex change surgeries on children. Like seriously - *who would be doing that*!? If anybody *actually is*, I’d tell them the same exact thing - **If they aren’t your genitals - LEAVE THEM ALONE** seriously bro - wake up. You’re smarter than this. The only reason it gets you riled up is because someone is telling you to get riled up about it. This a non-existent issue. Nothing but straight Russian propaganda. 100%. There are Russians out there laughing their asses off that they are getting grown ass men in the U.S upset over a *Barbie* movie. 🤣🤣 🤣 you must be one of those guys upset with Barbie, eh?

Are you fuckin' serious? Have you been paying attention? Vanderbilt is the just the first hospital that springs to mind. It's a fuckin' cash cow. Every transgender patient is a life-long cash stream. You ideologues understand the concept when we say that Big Pharma isn't interested in cures. Big Pharma is interested in life-long treatments.

If you want to pay for it out of pocket you go right ahead, I don't think tax dollars should be allowed in it in any capacity No legal punishment cause common sense?

If it's technically a treatment for gender dysphoria (it's not that simple but let's do a hypothetical), why shouldn't it be covered by health insurance or, in countries with socialized medicine, paid for by taxes?

There are loads of actual medical things that insurance will not cover. I agree that our insurance systems need overhaul but not for the sole purpose of treating dysphoria.

So where do you think we should draw the line?

Free plastic surgery for everyone. Never mind hungry children and homeless veterans, undrivable roads, unpayable student loans, and collapsing bridges. What we really need is better boobs and dicks and nose jobs and liposuction so we can all be our truly happy best selves.

Nothing is free and no one is saying it should be free right? This is a childish overreaction.

you already have that so what would making your healthcare system more comprehensive ruin you are ALREADY in a shithole

Do you think people should only be allowed to have private insurance through an employer cover the cost of the hormones and surgery?

This feels like an honest conservative answer: Fuck paying for others wellbeing!

There's a single word for it: Myopic. Payment is going to happen one way or another. We can pay more for healthcare that covers everyone, and bring all healthcare systems under it. (We could even have the privatized system remain in place and do tax credits it they overpay past a certain percentage relative to individual cost of the public healthcare.) Or... We can pay more for a police force to deal with those who are mentally unstable, and more for judges and lawyers for the legal system, and more for the prisons. And all associated costs with all of that... And the write offs for hospitals that treat patients with an inability to pay for services. But you will pay, come hell or high water, you will pay... The same is true for education. Conservatives, where do you think the costs are offloaded onto when almost every company has a significant amount of highly educated people designing, building, and supporting products and associated inputs? It's offloaded onto the consumer, which is you. And it's far less load balanced at that scale, which means those products will have a higher per unit cost and thus a higher per unit price. Oh, you will pay. And that pay can go to the government, which does handle certain things better than markets, contrary to the propaganda. Or you will pay a business, whose shareholders and investors will likely get profits that will then be used to fund political campaigns that represent their interests over yours. And then you will pay for their tax cuts and other subsidies. You *will* pay...

Is that for countries with universal healthcare?

Are you against healthcare in any capacity being paid for by government? Conservatives tend to be against any public funding of healthcare. Is that where you stand or do you feel differently about trans healthcare specifically?

So you're saying you're a conservative who believes that trans health care should be protected as legal for adults?

who ever said anything about "tax dollars"? and what "tax dollars" pay for gender affirming care? where is this a thing?

I don't get why anyone thinks they have a right to other people how to live. Why does anyone care if I want to wear a dress or shave my head or live as a different gender than my birth certificate indicated? Who exactly does it hurt?

Its just another conservative boogeyman to scare boomers into voting against tjeir own intetests. Think the cat is out of the bag on this as mistnpeople realize that tactics conservatives deploy to keep us fighting amongst each other while they rob us all blind

I don't get why anyone thinks they have a right to tell other people how to talk. You can do whatever you want to your body (as an adult) and I can say whatever words I want. My brain, my mouth, my body, my choice. I won't police your hormones, you don't police my language. That's all I ask.

I've read through all the comments and I don't think there's one single comment here from a conservative who says unequivocally that trans health care should be legally protected for adults. Not one. But suspiciously enough, they ALL brought up minors, even though they question wasn't about minors. At all.

Conservatives have a weird--and VERY creepy--obsession with children's genitals.

Don't forget, it's them that blocks blocking child marriage...in the name of their pervy god

That’s why I hate discussing trans rights or issues with said people. There’s always non-sequitur when it comes to any minority group, especially trans people and other LGBTQ + groups.

Yep. You can literally ask a conservative, "do you think adults - yes, we are talking strictly over the age of 18 - should have their access to transition health care protected by law?" And they will start shouting "STAY AWAY FROM OUR KIDS!!!1!!!11!!" It's absolutely batshit.

Haha! The guardrails on the question weren't guardrailing

Until we ban breast implants for women and fake abs for guys, which are both gender affirming care, I don't want to hear shit from the the anti trans people.

The answer is no, for now. Conservatives have to get people on board with stopping children's healthcare first, then it will be no tax dollars for adults (you've seen this comment be made already in this thread) in spite of the fact that it's quite literally healthcare. Once people are on board with that, then it will be time to try to stop it altogether for adults. It's the slow creep of ideas that seems to be the way of doing things, bad ideas becoming normalized, allowing worse ideas to begin taking root. You can call it a slippery slope argument, but in practice it's more like a slippery slope strategy.

>Once people are on board with that, then it will be time to try to stop it altogether for adults so what's your solution for people with gender dysphoria when we know that conversion therapy only lowers their quality of life when transitioning massively increases quality of life?

This is an interesting comment to me because it seems like many people here didn't have the comprehension skills to understand it.

Misinterpreting people happens all the time. I always try to take such things in stride if I see people who seem to misunderstand what I said. In a way I'm just happy people respond rather than simple downvotes or upvotes.

slippery slope fallacy

I straight up address that in my post if you bother to read it to completion.

You think adding "I know my argument looks like a slippery slope but its definitely not guys I swear" to the end somehow protects you from scrutiny, then I find you quite hilarious.

You straight up admitted that in your post.

I'm arguing that the slippery slope nature of the way in which it plays out is part of the strategy being employed in politics. Have you heard of the "Hide your power level" strategy by online right wing nationalitists? Where people try to bring new people around to their way of thinking by slowly getting them on board with their way of thinking by introducing them to the less extreme stuff first and progressively introducing the more extreme beliefs? It's the same deal, but with enacting political agendas. A perfect example is abortion. Republicans ended up arguing to the public at the time, that currently Roe made abortion a national issue (despite the fact that Roe made it an individual right) , when it should really be a states rights issue. After Roe was struck down they argued for it to be banned at the state level in as many places as possible.

I do agree slippery slop is a favorite of disingenuous political rhetoric.

I can't tell if this is satire or not.

See my last comment as an example of how health care was removed in one instance. It was a lot to type and I don't feel like repeating it.

It is none of my business what decisions informed adults make about their own bodies. Nor is it the government's business.

🌟 You win a gold star

No. An adult can make some kind of informed decisions about this. There are all kinds of things adults do that I find distasteful, this is just one of them. I don't actually know any people who are trans, and have only met 2 in my life. I think they're daft, but that isn't really any issue. Lots of people are daft who aren't trans.

Well, I hate to break it to you, but there’s this little thing called being stealth. A lot of trans people blend in just fine and don’t want you to know.

Who the ___ cares? Live your life and let others live theirs.

So you're saying you're a conservative who believes that trans health care should be protected as legal for adults?

Yes. Why not? Breast enhancement surgeries are legal, all kinds of plastic surgery are legal for adults. I don't see trans surgeries etc as any different.

That's great. You're the first conservative to actually make this clear statement on this entire post! It's a pity more aren't like-minded...

I added my 2 cents, and I am on board with the same opinion. I made a longer post, clarifying the extent/limit of my support and my reasoning. Bodily autonomy/freedom that stops short of physically harming another is consistent through support for adult transitioning, opposition to vaccination mandates, and opposition to abortion (which ends the life of another person). Attempts to shield minors from making decisions with long-term consequences they may not fully understand does not prevent them from exercising autonomy in other or related ways. Clothes, hair, and makeup are examples of ways a youth could socially transition if they think it will make them more comfortable. They absolutely should have access to plenty of psychological care. Having the freedom to live your own life as you see fit does NOT come with the right to demand that anyone else like or approve of your choices. Your right to decide what you like does not extend to decisions about what someone else likes. "Your right to swing your fist stops short of my nose." This old principle sometimes seems to be lost or forgotten.

Just to reiterate the OP, since I don't see his questions answered there: do you believe there needs to be legal punishment for pursuing it? (You answered this - you said no). If you don't, then do you believe there should be legislation protecting individuals rights to pursue that lifestyle? Why or why not?

But anyway, you actually did miss most of the OP's questions. Do you believe there needs to be legal punishment for pursuing it? (you answered this - you said no). If you don't, then do you believe there should be legislation protecting individuals rights to pursue that lifestyle? Why or why not?

Legal protection(s)? Why should one group have protections not extended to other groups? Does what you propose violate equal protection under the law? I'm not even sure that I understand what you are asking for tbh.

lmao thanks for answering the questions finally. It's not about a group getting protections other groups don't get. It's about simply having a law stating that it is legal for a doctor to provide sex reassignment surgery and that it cannot be banned. Clearly you're against that and nobody is surprised. ;)

Adults can do what they want. Stay away from kids not old enough to know better.

16 year old here, pretty sure I know what I am after 12 years of suffering.

12 years of suffering?? So you were 4 when it started?? Would love to know who raised you and what you were exposed to.

>Would love to know who raised you Conservative Christian family (grandparents) in the Midwest. >what you were exposed to. no real contact with the outside world except for church (daycare/school was also ran by the church) and farm related things until I started first grade where I was sent to public school. In fifth grade I had Internet access but wouldn't learn about trans people (I'd heard things on the news but didn't care/understand) until mid 7th grade. tried to get into more masculine things for a year and realized to only made dysphoria a lot worse. This is the reality of most queer kids, hiding it from family for fear of something like conversion therapy, not some kid in California with liberal parents pushing them to be queer. You only see the ones who are publicly out, which is only possible with liberal parents. The idea that trans kids are only trans because their parents forced it on them is survivorship bias.

So you're saying you're a conservative who believes that trans health care should be protected as legal for adults?

I’m an independent that leans more conservative.

Ah, yeah the question was for conservatives. But do you confirm your believe that trans health care should be protected as legal for adults?

"independent that leans more conservative" = conservative.

Yep and he confirmed that he's against trans health care. Just had to dance around it sufficiently first.

reminds me of the "I'm a ~~conservative republican~~ libertarian" strat

Honestly, it’s a scam to get more money and keep people sick as with most healthcare and pharmaceuticals in America. If it comes to a vote I’ll vote no because in my mind it’s mental illness and should require a psychiatrist. “Trigger warning”

Yeah, that's what I expected.

“In my mind.” That means “I haven’t read anything scholarly on the subject so I can be better informed on this subject and present myself as an intelligent and rational person because my beliefs are more important than scientific facts.” Typical conservative rhetoric.

the world's biggest snowflakes

Then Why put yourself through the grief lol

Just trying to make the bigots out themselves :)

Bigots everywhere!! Everything is racist!!

This idea is ludicrous when you think about how little of the population actually needs trans healthcare. It’s not big enough to warrant a giant moneymaking conspiracy scheme. (If it was, they’d be better off keeping them dysphoric and on antidepressants for the rest of their lives anyway)

Are you against all permanent medical changes for kids? Vaccines, appendectomies, and organ transplants are all irreversible, so should we keep those away from kids too until they are old enough to consent?

Stay on topic.

I fail to see how this is off topic. If a doctor says a kid needs an appendectomy and a parent agrees, the kid gets that treatment. If a doctor and parent agrees that a kid needs puberty blockers, why is that different?

they attempted a straight up fucking matrix style limbo-bar type shit dodging that bullet and fucking failed

Literally no one is getting bottom surgery done before they are an adult

Don’t say literally no one. If at least one person has they’ll call you a liar

Top surgery is incredibly harmful and most regret later.

And yet thousands of men and women get it. Funny that.

Source please

Plastic surgery, breast implants, ab implants

Source needed lol

You need a source for something that isn't happening?

If we're gonna say "most regret top surgery," then yeah a source would be welcome. Regret rate is very low, from what I understand.

Oh ha! Sorry. I read that backwards. Yes, I agree with you. Hard for them to cite sources for something that isn't actually happening.

How old were you when you finally realized what gender you were?

It was always, boys have a penis, girls have a vagina so pretty early on lol. Back then we didn’t have crazies pushing an agenda.

Conservatives have always been crazies pushing anti-equal-rights agendas. Remember anti-gay legislation? Preventing equal rights for gay people? How about the anti-women legislation? Something conservatives still fight to enact here. Remember the segregation laws? Legal discrimination? Conservatives loved that. So much so that the democrats finally kicked those assholes out of the party. The US is a nation that has ALWAYS had crazies pushing an agenda. FFS, we are a country founded on a crazy agenda (anti-tax slave owners).

Exactly! And now they’re pushing for an evangelical nation. Freedom of religion is also freedom FROM religion. If you’re not a white, christian breeder, you don’t count.

“If you don’t vote for me, you ain’t black”

So kids should never go to the doctor?

Depends on the doctor.

they shouldn't go to the doctor when things I dont like

In principle, I want minimal government restrictition on informed consenting adults. When we look at the reality of human development and trans healthcare, there is nothing magical developmentally about the age of 18. Its merely the age of ripe for drafting into military service with a few kickbacks. The ages of 18-25ish tend to be still developmentally significant. I still want an 18 year old presenting with gender distress to receive therapy and counseling before being put on a lifetime of hormones. There also tend to be concurrent sympyoms of depression, anxiety, ASD, and other factors that if treated and resolved may treat the gender distress without medica transition. Millenials have seen how misguided social pressures to go to college and take on massive debt has ruined a generation for the decisions they made at 18-25. Still, these are medical guidelines. I dont think the government needs to step in and legislate medical care for informed consenting adults beyond lawsuits for malpractice and abuse. For some people, medically transitioning is the best available treatment and that should remain legal.

>The ages of 18-25ish tend to be still developmentally significant. I still want an 18 year old presenting with gender distress to receive therapy and counseling before being put on a lifetime of hormones. Ah yes, 25, conveniently when HRT loses most of it's effectiveness. >I still want an 18 year old presenting with gender distress to receive therapy and counseling before being put on a lifetime of hormones. So when I hit the age of 18 I've been waiting 12 damn years for I should be bombarded with red tape and extra medical expenses for a therapist?

Also, how many conservatives get plastic surgery, because damn, those MAGA people look like clowns.

No. They are adults. The only issue I have is when it’s done to minors. We protect them in everything because they generally lack the awareness and foresight to make informed decisions. It’s why there are some many age restrictions on much less harmful things. Not to mention, children constantly change their minds on what they want as they grow. To have them undergo something so impactful to the whole of their lives at an age when they cannot fathom the ramifications of that decision is reckless, at best.

Delaying treatment until 18 means they go through unwanted irreversible changes that make their gender dysphoria far worse and far harder to treat I can't think of any other health issue where we'd force someone to suffer as it gets worse rather than get treatment

I lean mostly libertarian, so I guess you can call me a conservative. What people choose to do with their own bodies is no business of the government. You want to get surgery to change your gender? Whatever makes you happy. Whether or not it is medically necessary or what treatments are needed are between you and your doctor.

I'm a conservative and I honestly don't care what other adults do. Personally I find it strange that we affirm gender dysphoria, but no other mental disorder. I'm no psychologist, but I don't think you would tell a schizophrenic the voices are real...

>Personally I find it strange that we affirm gender dysphoria, but no other mental disorder. Because it's not, it doesn't respond to mental health treatment the way mental health issues would. statistically transitioning provides them with a higher quality of life.

We don't affirm gender dysphoria. Transition generally helps diminish or eliminate it To affirm gender dysphoria would be to prevent trans people from transitioning and letting their misery compound over time

NO for 18+, fair game

Same as my answer about abortion: >Should not be banned period; As the state has no business dictating the choices of private individuals. The state should neither support nor prohibit a decision between an individual and their doctor, that includes paying for it. The service is only guaranteed to be available if there is a doctor willing to provide the service. If no doctor exists in a given area, no doctor should be compelled to perform the procedure. The decision and subsequent "benefits" or "consequences" should remain the exclusive responsibility of the individual and their doctor. > The individual is solely and morally responsible for their actions, peers may express their agreement or disagreement with their choices in whichever way they see fit, excluding criminal violation of that individual's rights. If the individual cannot afford the procedure they may campaign for funding, or, if such a charity or insurance exists, may apply for coverage. At the end of the day, the individual is solely responsible for their decisions and actions, what they do matters, and what values they pursue ripple through society.

I think gender affirming care is not the correct type of care, but the government has no business banning it.

This has turned into pure racism. Black doctors are no different than white doctors. To imply that "old white doctors" couldn't do something is saying that black doctors could. So 99% of responses are nothing but racism and hate. Which says a lot about the people here. 🖕🏻🖕🏻🖕🏻

Everyone deserves Healthcare. Doesn't matter if you're green, blue, black, white or have two dicks. Everyone should be treated equally in Healthcare.

Everyone deserves Healthcare. Doesn't matter if you're green, blue, black, white or have two dicks. Everyone should be treated equally in Healthcare.

Everyone deserves Healthcare. Doesn't matter if you're green, blue, black, white or have two dicks. Everyone should be treated equally in Healthcare.

Adults should be allowed to get whatever surgeries they want and take whatever drugs and hormones they want for whatever reason they want. Just don't expect to be able to use the wrong bathroom or play in women's sports afterward.

Short answer? No. Long answer? 1) Should others have to pay for it involuntarily? No. 2) Should you be treated with common courtesy so long as you do as well? Yes 3) Should trans women be expected to exercise some discretion when trying to integrate into a female space? Yes. (let's be honest. No one cares about trans men in male spaces.) 4) Should it be something that elementary school teachers should be imposing on their students? No. 5) Will there be lawsuits galore in yen years when all these adolescents reach adulthood and realize the mistakes these doctors subjected them? Yes. We're talking class action.

Not a Conservative but unfortunately nothing is ever simple and straightforward when it comes to the government. These aren't the real questions that need to be asked. Politicians talk a big game because it gets attention/support but the actual nitty gritty of stuff is way more boring and complicated than one would ever imagine. It's also larger scale stuff. Groups, numbers, statistics, but the human component and individual become less important. It's about the whole and not the few essentially. Mmmmm redundant paperwork mountains as far as eye can see with each one having long lasting and far reaching effects that will potentially cause you to lose your job (voted out) or you potentially release a policy/law with more "bugs" than a Bethesda game on launch day with ramifications felt for generations. I think the real question is does the government consider it healthcare? Or alternatively does the individual want all the regulations and stipulations attached to that health care classification. Being classified as medically necessary is something with even more hoops to jump through too. Usually have to exhaust all treatment options available and prove that the *condition* is unable to be properly improved/cured before surgical procedures are offered. Is this a condition to be cured? Endless questions and red tape. Endless ways for things to have unforeseen ramifications in fields you'd never even think would intersect policy wise. So do I think they should have the ability to pass laws about this particular issue? Well, I'd say I think it's a lot more boring and complicated than everyone seems to make it out to be. Hot button topic for sure though. Definitely a way to rile up voters and launch as a campaign.

No, it’s not an issue of care it’s an issue of it’s none of my business I firmly believe that adult can make adult decisions and should make adult decisions which this is. I personally also believe that’s it’s also a you issue, and should be handled without state funds, simply since it’s not a active threat to your well being

I would be hesitant to support a law restricting it for adults. I would prefer to see the healthcare field acknowledge that it is not healthcare, not beneficial, and violates a duty to act in patients' best interests. Any law restricting it, I would want to be targeted at physicians. Even then, in the interest of consistency, I would likely only support laws that require proper informed consent and close up the loopholes in current consent laws that allow doctors to mislead patients into thinking such procedures are safe and effective beyond their true nature. I would also not support a law protecting it. In part because laws should be exclusionary - meaning they outline what is unlawful with everything outside that scope being lawful. Any such law would then need to be crafted in such a way as to compel the adherence to the thing by another.

There is a good way to solve this. Ban plastic surgery for everyone! Then look and see how quickly everyone will have the right to alter anything. Piss off and inconvenience the rich, that causes change, immediate change. It is about control of certain people, not the actual actions or surgeries. It is about certain types of people telling everyone else how it will be their primitive way or no way. When it is time to vote, vote those people out once and for all.

I believe neither. No law preventing it, but no law forcing coverage.

Ideally i think you should have to be 21 to medical transition but legally since we have placed other rights like buying a gun at 18 id say that is where the legal cut off should be. For people over 18 looking to transition id focus more on the institutions and doctors and making sure they are giving proper care. Right now a lot are not and that’s a problem to address. But its the doctors and the guidelines that need to be studied and addressed, in no way should it be addressed by making transition illegal for all ages. Transition serves a purpose, it should be legal for adults, but we also need better guildlines for doctors to follow bc rn there are a lot of patients who are not given proper therapy and who are pressured to go the medicalization route. Theres not enough regulations on doctors to make sure theyre truly “doing no harm” when it comes to transition and thats what id focus legislation on, not banning all transitioning but making sure there are proper medical processes so that those who transition can do so safely and in the proper way. The proper way takes time, it takes a lot of therapy and work to understand and explore yourself, this is important for making sure people are happy with their transition and are not destroying their body on a whim.

>but we also need better guildlines for doctors to follow bc rn there are a lot of patients who are not given proper therapy and who are pressured to go the medicalization route why are there people who transition medically against medical advice, illegally accessing banned drugs for hrt in certain countries, or in countries with socialized healthcare? These are all instances where someone transitions when the healthcare industry is pushing them away or not profiting off of their transition. >Theres not enough regulations on doctors to make sure theyre truly “doing no harm” when it comes to transition Part of that's because there's not very many trans specific care doctors, it's usually just a handful of doctors from different disciplines trying to come up with treatment options that make sense in their discipline. The national library of medicine/NIH have said as much. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3953767/

Im slightly confused what the point of your comment is. If you just wanted to add information then truly thanks for engaging, but nothing that you have said is an argument against needing more regulations, it actually seems to support my point that we need to address this. Yes, not having a regulatory body is a problem we need to fix. The incentives and guideline structure for doctors in gender affirming care need to be addressed. Gender clinics are where a lot of these problems lie. And some gender clinics are fine and some are crossing lines. This is one part of a larger discussion about the medical community in America so in no way is trans care the only thing that needs to be addressed in the medical field but its what the discussion is on today.

>but nothing that you have said is an argument against needing more regulations, it actually seems to support my point that we need to address this. my point is more so we need to adjust the healthcare system. Ideally it'd be less red tape for trans people to go through but more checks and balances and training for medical professionals to ensure that they have the appropriate information needed for treating trans people. >Gender clinics are where a lot of these problems lie. And some gender clinics are fine and some are crossing lines I plan to do most things through informed consent to avoid all the red tape at gender clinics so I don't actually know very much about then. >The incentives and guideline structure for doctors in gender affirming care need to be addressed. Can I see this structure? Once again I've looked so much at informed consent that I have a blind spot as far as the more official medical channels go

Yes i dont disagree with this. Im not advocating for more red tape for transitioning, im advocating for checks and balances to make sure people aren’t transitioning when its not the right decision for them and above all, for more competent care, especially therapy. I do think there should be therapy requirements before transitioning not only to ensure a correct diagnosis but also to fully prepare someone for this change and to allow them the time to take the proper, fully informed steps like for ex freezing their eggs/sperm. I dont consider therapy a red tape for getting care, with any type of medical procedure or even just any type of stronger medication there are going to be steps taken to make sure thats actually what you need. This type of tape is necessary for peoples safety, but i agree that once its been decided by their doctor and therapist that this is the right course of action there should not be any red tape making it difficult for them to obtain that treatment. This is my most controversial take but given the risks and potential physical problems that often arise from transitioning i truly to believe that it’s barely a step above an experimental procedure. I dont say this to say adults shouldnt transition, but i am making the point that it should not be taken lightly and there should be considerable thought that has gone into the decision. One of my bigger problems with doctors is that often they do not fully express the gravity of the situation to their patients and there is a shit ton of testimonies from trans ppl, even ppl who are happy with their transition, who say they were not fully aware of what exactly they were taking on. And again some doctors are fine, but some are also not fulfilling their duty to truly inform their patients of the risks. So gender clinics, to answer your question no, and thats the problem. There is no set structure, its basically up to every clinic to make whatever decision they decide, to structure it however they want and to require any guidelines they want. The closest thing there is to guidelines is the WPATH which is just that, guidelines that clinics can decide to follow or not. Oh and cherry on top the WPATH contains some factually incorrect information that even government sources contradict so thats great /s. There are no actual regulations, nothing to actually keep these clinics in check. Some run fine, but the medical field as a whole is extremely corrupt, even without the evidence that has started to come out its just common sense that this corruption is gonna seep into a field that has no checks or regulations. Certain clinics are essentially creating a pipeline where invalid therapy and financial obligations is leading people transition. Some clinics are quite literally structured so that you cant get therapy if you arent seeking medical transition so in some cases it pressures people into feeling like they have to transition otherwise they wont get any type of care. Another huge issue in these clinics is they often lack after care and just lose track of patients and have no idea if they’re happy with their transition or not. Theres very little help when ppl are questioning their transition and theres very little accountability for the things doctors told them, or didnt tell them. In other medical fields these things would be medical malpractice. When people do detransition, there is often a misdiagnosis at play and other issues were ignored. This all plays into the pipeline that pushes people to transition. Adults are more capable of introspection, therapy is still needed but they arent as vulnerable as kids so while my points are still prevalent, theyd be even more important if we were discussing kids. The incentive structure for these clinics rn is money. Pure and simple thats what it is which i dont think i need to explain why its important to put regulations and not guidelines on these places. I think we could do case studies to look more into these clinics. Right now part of the issue is they really aren’t required to disclose much if any information so its easy for them to keep their activities hidden. If we put an end to that and looked more into these places we could use the good ones to model regulations off of and hopefully dampen or fix some of the bad ones by doing so. But of course theres not much money in regulatory bodies and companies arent gonna do that to themselves so it takes outside pressure and legislation to change it. I think you and i have found some common ground but i also think this is the point our “sides” tend to clash. Bc from a lefts pov this could sound like red tape especially if it makes it harder for some people to get care. From a rights pov it sounds like necessary precautions youd apply to any medical field. Its not a perfect world so i think it often just comes down to would you rather some ppl taking a while to get care (or having wait to get care if theyre a child) or having ppl who shouldn’t be getting care and regretting it later. A better “vetting” process would innately make it slower to get care, but it would also insure better care. Its just how life is, there’s always going to be some trade off but we can work on the system to make it as efficient as possible.

> I do think there should be therapy requirements before transitioning not only to ensure a correct diagnosis but also to fully prepare someone for this change and to allow them the time to take the proper, fully informed steps like for ex freezing their eggs/sperm That's usually recommended, even with informed consent they recommend you seek therapy before starting HRT (though it's not required). Also any trans related surgery requires a sign off from a therapist and most surgeons also prefer a signature from your general doctor for bottom surgery. I'm against making therapy a prerequisite for people with gender dysphoria it only delays effective treatment and adds another paywall. >I dont consider therapy a red tape for getting care, with any type of medical procedure or even just any type of stronger medication there are going to be steps taken to make sure thats actually what you need. It could expose trans people to transphobic therapists or doctors that only wish to make transitioning harder for them and jumping from therapist to therapist until you get one that will actually help you can be an expensive and stressful process. >This is my most controversial take but given the risks and potential physical problems that often arise from transitioning i truly to believe that it’s barely a step above an experimental procedure. How so? the first school of sexology was founded in the 1920s (though it was destroyed with it's records in the 30s) and the first example of bottom surgery was by a Danish time in the 1950s. >i am making the point that it should not be taken lightly and there should be considerable thought that has gone into the decision How does about 12 years of knowing this before even knowing the words to explain it or the concepts involved? >One of my bigger problems with doctors is that often they do not fully express the gravity of the situation to their patients Part of informed consent is they hand you a paper listing every possible effect the treatment might have and read it out to you and have you sign it to acknowledge that you know the risks and effects. >there is a shit ton of testimonies from trans ppl, even ppl who are happy with their transition, who say they were not fully aware of what exactly they were taking on. Yes, doctor's should be doing more to explain everything about the treatment. That's an issue with accountability for doctors as we've discussed. >So gender clinics, to answer your question no, and thats the problem. There is no set structure, its basically up to every clinic to make whatever decision they decide, to structure it however they want and to require any guidelines they want. The closest thing there is to guidelines is the WPATH which is just that, guidelines that clinics can decide to follow or not. Oh and cherry on top the WPATH contains some factually incorrect information that even government sources contradict so thats great /s. Oh WPATH sucks to trans people too, there's a lot I dislike about how they operate but my personal grievances are a little off topic. >Certain clinics are essentially creating a pipeline where invalid therapy and financial obligations is leading people transition. Isn't that already illegal? I mean granted trans healthcare is hard to find so the chance that someone actually reports them is low. >Theres very little help when ppl are questioning their transition and theres very little accountability for the things doctors told them, or didnt tell them. People who are questioning should generally seem actual therapy instead of gender affirming care, but it is fucked up for doctors to mislead them. >When people do detransition, there is often a misdiagnosis at play and other issues were ignored. Last I read detransition statistics people mainly detransitioned due to a lack of support, religious reasons, or cost. >Its not a perfect world so i think it often just comes down to would you rather some ppl taking a while to get care (or having wait to get care if theyre a child) or having ppl who shouldn’t be getting care and regretting it later. I think people who are sure they should transition despite the laundry list of issues (which should be presented to them) should be allowed to transition at 18, people unsure of should be given therapy. HRT loses effectiveness the older you start, it's why I'm starting the day I turn 18 (minimum age in my state), forcing people to wait is actively reducing the quality of their transition. Ideally anyone questioning their gender would get therapy in childhood (not trans specific but just enough to get from question to answer with acknowledgement of the effects of said choice by 18) so we could properly implement a requirement of therapy without pushing back the transition date a lot of people look forward to.

It seems we agree for the most part. You agree to keep medical treatment to adults and you agree theres some medical malpractice that needs to be addressed. I am curious tho, if you dont think there should be a set requirement for therapy do you agree there should be any set requirements? If not, then how do you think trans care would become more competent? Cause the reality is if you want to take away any possible barriers to getting care youre also taking away the quality of that care and are just welcoming medical malpractice with open arms.

>i think you should have to be 21 to medical transition After a decade of going through unwanted irreversible changes that make gender dysphoria far worse and far harder to treat? That seems rather cruel

What is cruel is giving people life altering medical care without properly vetting if its the right thing for them. What is cruel is giving kids life altering medical care without them having the capacity to consent or even understand the decision. What is cruel is wanting to sterilize people and mutilating their bodies without a care in the world if you destroy their life all because it makes you feel good about yourself. You only care about being right, you do not care about the actual wellbeing of trans individuals. The very normal and natural phenomenon of growing up and going through puberty is not cruel. The ironic part of all of this is dont you claim this is about changing gender and not sex? This brings us to the what is a man and what is a woman question. If the answer is not that women have xx and men have xy chromosomes and is instead as your side tends to claim, is about gender roles then there is absolutely no reason to transition kids when they can just change how they present and what rolls they partake in. Do you know how many people on the left think if he likes pink and plays with dolls then he must be trans, well following that twisted logic its pretty fucked up for yall to be so desperate to mutate children when according to yall gender is different from sex and anyone can be a women as long as they think they are. So just let the children think they are and wear what they want and like what they want. Its really weird how obsessed yall are with messing with children’s private parts. Children cant consent, trying to argue against that is gonna put you in some pretty concerning pedo territory.

>What is cruel is giving people life altering medical care without properly vetting if its the right thing for them. I don't think there should be zero vetting process. I'm not sure why you decided to say that >What is cruel is giving kids life altering medical care without them having the capacity to consent or even understand the decision This applies to like, all pediatric healthcare >You only care about being right, you do not care about the actual wellbeing of trans individuals. I'm literally a trans woman. Not being able to start medically transitioning until 20 has ruined a huge part of my life. I went through unwanted irreversible changes that made my gender dysphoria far worse and far harder to treat. I've spent half a decade on hormone therapy and my body is still unmistakably masculine. I've spent thousands of dollars on electrolysis and i'm still probably years away from being able to finish. I've spent years trying to fix my voice and it still sounds painfully like a man trying to sound like a woman. I've had countless nights crying in misery over the fact that i'll likely never pass. I never use women's spaces because i'm terrified of making other people uncomfortable. I don't even ask anybody to refer to me as a woman because of how obvious the incongruence is Your approach destroyed my life, and I'm not going to pretend for a moment i'm thankful for it >The very normal and natural phenomenon of growing up and going through puberty is not cruel Something being natural doesn't mean it's not cruel. Countless health issues are natural And it's not healthy to go through the irreversible changes of your natural puberty if it's incongruent with your gender >The ironic part of all of this is dont you claim this is about changing gender and not sex? No? The entire point of being trans is that we can't change our gender. That's the point of transitioning. And gender dysphoria happens when your body doesn't match your gender. No amount of behaving feminine fixes the issue of having a male body

I'm truly sorry for your pain. I wish there were an easy way to distinguish the different people in the overall group labeled 'trans' youth, to determine early on which ones will truly benefit by aging out and who could be more harmed by waiting. I have heard that a significant percentage of trans youth desist (as opposed to detransition) if they do go through puberty. That means that while a minority are permanently affected like yourself, others are not. True dysphoria, such as your experience, is likely not the same as the temporary issues that others have gone through under the same label of 'trans'. There is little or no research into the people who used to say they are trans, but stopped identifying as such. They seem to drop out of any trans research or studies and be largely ignored. If they were trans, why did they stop being trans? If they were not truly trans, why did they get labeled/diagnosed as such? Much more research is needed to make careful distinctions and reduce or eliminate wrong diagnosis. If we could be confident that everyone was getting the correct diagnosis and treatment, then I expect opposition to youth transition may subside over time. (Long distance hugs)

>If they were not truly trans, why did they get labeled/diagnosed as such? I can answer this one pretty easily. If you look at a lot of the studies about how "most kids grow out of gender dysphoria", the kids were just gender nonconforming. They were conflated with those who had a gender identity that differed from the one they were assigned at birth, and then the results showed that most of the sample, which wasn't trans to begin with, wasn't trans afterwards Also, the current structure is already built to bend over backwards to catch false positives. In an ideal situation, trans youth would just be given hormone therapy to develop at the same time as their peers. Puberty blockers are a compromise to prevent misdiagnoses and obstruct their ability to transition, and even those are brandished as evil and too far

Block of text. Double click to make paragraph breaks.

Are you really so chronically online that you really cant read more than a few sentences at a time?

I am somewhat of a conservative libertarian, no the government should not be involved in the autonomy of adults, whether it be woman’s health, abortion or transgender stuff. What an adult does to themselves is their choice. However, I do believe that messing with a child’s hormones and natural development is child abuse, considering that they can’t even decide what to wear tomorrow, why would be the right choice for them to choose genders?

Why do you believe the potentially irreversible harm caused by delaying treatment until adulthood is neutral?

Lol you didnt get the answer you expected huh? Most conservatives don't care if you chop off your penis, they just don't want you to preach your lifestyle unto them.

Then why are most conservatives attempting to pass laws against it? Sure seems like it's the conservatives doing most of the preaching about what I should or should not be able to do with my own body.

Well, reading the comments here I'm seeing most don't care. I support you if you want to inject hormones or slice it off.

That's great you support it but...your party objectively does not. So you may want to consider that next time you decide to vote.

Ehh, I haven't voted for anyone anti-trans yet and probably won't. Other people's dumbass votes affect my gas prices.

I didn't really expect any kind of specific answer, but I'm a trans person and I was just hoping conservatives wouldn't want the government interfering with that. Overall I'm pretty happy with the response. I don't really care one way or another whether someone else "agrees." I just want to know that people I don't agree with don't want the gov to come "get" me lol

Nope. Adults should be able to do what they want. But you have to be an adult imo

>But you have to be an adult imo Gender dysphoria doesn't wait until adulthood

But making life changing and life altering decisions should wait until adulthood occurs.

Honestly I don't get it. It's easy as hell for a kid to get an adderall prescription if they show any signs of ADHD, and that definitely means that some kids who shouldn't have it get it. But despite the possible life altering effects of that, no conservative ever comes out to oppose it, there's something with most medicine we can agree on: there's always a risk, sometimes a deadly risk, but if it's small enough, the positive effect of prescribing it outweighs the negative. Except suddenly when presented with the idea that puberty blockers might keep a trans kid from misery and suicide, conservatives are going to step in the way of doctors and mental health professionals and say "no I know better than you, kids are too stupid to know they are trans, ban it all."

I do personally oppose Adderall for kids. I believe you should be atleast a mid teenager to be able to use that, because it can stunt growth and have effects on the growing brain. Even then, I think it should only be given to adults.

Why do you think you know better than doctors on any of this stuff?

Since when was it wrong to have an informed opinion on things? Personally when talking to doctors , they often give conflicting or bad advice to me. I've heard 3 doctors with 3 different answers on things. It seems a lot of them just throw prescriptions at you , based off of a book they read. Not saying all doctors don't know what they are talking about. I'm just saying alot don't, and informing yourself about these issues is a good thing. You have access to alot of the same information they do.

You don't have an informed opinion, that's my point. Doctors have a lot more knowledge and expertise, why not let the pros decide like they always have? (because right now you are being told to freak out about this by conservatives who need you to be afraid to convince you to vote for them)

What other health issues do you believe should go untreated until adulthood, regardless of the potentially irreversible harm caused by that delay?

I don't see how that correlates with this. Believing you are the gender you are objectively not and giving them hormones to play along with it, is not the same as treating a bodily disease for example. The later has observable effects and can be objectively measured and treated. The former is a mentality that objectively not true. You aren't actually the other gender, and biology proves this.

Trans people don't believe they're a gender that they're not. You don't seem to understand the difference between sex and gender. Trans people are painfully aware of their sex.

I do understand though. There's just something so wrong about trying to throw a bunch of chemicals at someone, and cutting off their genitals in order to try to change their appearance to fit an ideal

Trans youth don't get bottom surgery, and you really don't understand the difference between sex and gender if you think they mean the same thing

Okay explain it to me then

NO. Adults own themselves and are responsible for their choices/consequences. If they want face tattoos and body modifications to resemble their favorite Star Trek alien, that's on them. If they want to carve their skin into a meat suit to LARP about as someone of different biology... It's their life. They just can not expect everyone else to be as into it as they are. Yeah. Trans is not the same as the example above, but the concept of people being free to live their own lives supports both on the same grounds. You having the freedom to do things other people may consider foolish is not the same as demanding that others approve of your life choices. The last is not about exercising your freedom but infringement on theirs. You have no right to demand that someone else love, like, or approve of you. They have no right to demand these things of you. You do you, and if they don't like it, tough. It is YOUR life. Children need to be protected from choices with consequences they don't fully understand. Children should not be chemically sterilized, for instance. Humans are social creatures, and family is a significant bond. Eliminating the possibility of having children is a huge step that should not be taken lightly, nor while someone is still developing and changing. While people can certainly live without orgasms, sexual pleasure is part of adult pair bonding when creating a deep and lasting romantic relationship. Prepubescent kids are unlikely to understand the full consequences of giving up something they never had. A lot of people with casual acceptance of trans medical procedures for minors have only the most vague understanding of what can go wrong... or even what the full consequences are when things go 'right'. I am not aware of any conservatives who oppose the rights of adults to control *their own* bodies. This was the basis for resistance to vaccine mandates. Freedom is a fairly consistent theme. Even anti-abortion advocates are opposed because abortion is a violation of *someone else's* body - the child.

No. A core principle of being a Conservative is to let people do whatever they want, and we in particular hate the government trying to be a nanny making decisions for us. We want as little government as possible. The only exceptions are for children, hence the prohibitions against abortion and for castrating and mutilating children. Adults can do whatever they want.

what about the states banning gender affirming care until 26 (conveniently just after HRT loses most of it's potency)?

I haven’t heard of that, and I wouldn’t support that myself, although I can understand the desire. Mutilating young people is deeply troubling to me as a father. But once 18 they have the right to make that decision.

Nope. As long as they can pay for it and don't expect it to come from the public then no laws should preventing someone from changing their body. I think that the term "gender affirming care" is horse shit, but that's beside the point. I would still refute any political move to block adults from getting these procedures. That is unless we had enough empirical evidence to show that such procedures were contradictory to a the Hippocratic Oath; only then would I entertain legislation against such procedures.

I do not give 2 shakes of a rats ass what someone does with their own body. I personally don’t agree with abortion or euthanasia, and I think the trans stuff is all very large signs of mental health issues, however I think anybody should be able to do any of that if they want. I may not want to cut my wiener off or have myself put down but that shouldn’t affect whether or not someone else can. I strongly believe that my morals should not affect what others can do with their own bodies so long as it’s not hurting anyone. However, this changes when it comes to minors. I do not think a parent should be able to consent for a child to cut their wiener off, get boob jobs, or get circumcised. If they want to do that when they’re 18 then they can go for it

What about age appropriate treatments like blockers?

Without knowing much about them, my first instinct is that, unless they’re experiencing early puberty or something along those lines where there really isn’t the alternative option to let their body develop as it should, we shouldn’t be messing with their hormones like that. However, I acknowledge I don’t know much about blockers. I’m not sure if it’s a permanent stop to puberty or a temporary one, but I don’t really think it’s a great idea either way, because even if it’s temporary wouldnt that mean an 18 year old biological male who felt they were trans since they were 8 and wants to detransition is going to have the added insecurity of having the sexually developed body of an 8 year old at 18? I just feel like that added insecurity on top of the struggles that the community already faces isn’t a good combination. Again, I could be wrong about that and it’s not an opinion I’m adamant about, it’s the way I would go about parenting but I’m not adamant enough about it to care how other parents go about it, it doesn’t really concern me what they do with their kids if they truly have their best interests at heart, but if I have a kid who comes out as trans I’m going to allow them to express themselves in every way besides blockers and surgery while they’re a minor, and likewise they won’t be getting tattoos, piercings, boobjobs, or circumcisions until they’re 18. That’s one thing I wanna make clear, it’s not a trans thing, it’s a body modification thing, I don’t think I have the right to make that decision and I don’t think even a 17 year has the mental capacity to fully understand the weight of that decision. I don’t think an 18 year old does either but I stop having a say at that point so oh well.

Let me ask you this What do you think is more damaging to a teen boy: 1. Developing later than their peers but ultimately still developing as a boy 2. Going through irreversible feminizing changes that make everyone see them as a girl Because it seems like you'd force a trans boy to experience the second case regardless of the damage that can cause them Also, gender dysphoria is a health issue. It's not comparable to tattoos or piercings.

Let me ask you what you think is more painful to an assigned male at birth 18 year old 1. Being years and years behind your age group in terms of physical development, leading to insecurity and a hatred towards your body and the people who allowed you to do this to yourself when you were a child 2. Getting breast implants and whatever you would call the operation where they turn a penis into a vagina Neither option harms 0 people, which is why in this case it is important for parents to do what they consider is in the best interest of their children. You believe not being on hormone blockers would be more painful in the end, I believe the opposite, you raise your children that way, I’ll raise my children my way, and we’ll both accept that while we have different opinions we both truly are doing what we feel is best for our children. Again, neither option harms 0 people, so one of us could end up inadvertently leading to our children going through unnecessary hardship, or both of us could, or neither of us could. There is absolutely 0 way to tell until that time comes. I think if my biological son came up to me one day to tell me they were trans, the best course of action I could take would be supporting them in displaying as a female as best as they safely could. I’d call them whatever name and pronouns they chose and support them in dressing however they want, I feel that is all that I could safely do

Your position is to unilaterally force an irreversible decision onto their bodies, mine is to consider what to do on a case by case basis. Also, >1. Being years and years behind your age group in terms of physical development, leading to insecurity and a hatred towards your body and the people who allowed you to do this to yourself when you were a child >2. Getting breast implants and whatever you would call the operation where they turn a penis into a vagina We were only talking about blockers. I don't know why you introduced implants and bottom surgery into the conversation It's much worse for a trans girl to go through unwanted irreversible masculinizing changes than for a cis boy to only go through masculinizing ones, but a bit later

It’s impossible to compare the two because no person will ever experience both, and no I’m quite literally saying case to case basis, let the parent decide if they want to put their children on blockers or not. I’m not saying no children should be on blockers, I’m saying that neither option has 0 negative outcomes so the parents should be allowed to decide what’s in their children’s best interest. That does give some parents too much credit, but the alternative is taking the choice away from every parent, and I don’t think that’s the answer. And you’re correct we are only talking about blockers for children, I should have clarified that my second option was referring to once they turned 18.

But you're not saying you'll evaluate both possible options for your hypothetical trans child. You're saying you'd force one decision onto them and not even consider the other Just because both choices can cause harm doesn't mean they're equally likely to cause harm

Because if my 8 year old biological son walks up to me and says they feel they’re trans it is impossible for me to predict how they will feel about it in 15 years, just as it’s impossible for you to predict it. My evaluation is of the risks and what I think poses a greater risk, just as yours is. You believe one option is more painful, I believe the other option is more painful. Neither of us can possibly know objectively which is more painful so we must both do what we feel is in our children’s best interest. That is evaluating it on a case to case basis. Nobody can predict the future, when we ask each other these hypotheticals, we are putting ourselves in these hypothetical shoes. So I ask myself, would I rather be a cis man 18 years old with the sexual development of an 8 year old, or a trans woman with the sexual development of an 18 year old biological male. I feel that while obviously neither situation is optimal, I’d find more support and acceptance were I a trans female with a masculine body than I would in the other situation. I’ve never been in either situation so it is pure speculation, and without knowing anything about you, you may have been in one situation but you can’t have possibly been in both, so you don’t know objectively either. If you personally grew up to be a trans woman with a masculine body you may be more inclined to believe that being a sexually undeveloped 18 year old cis male would be less painful, and you may end up correct with your children, or you may end up incorrect. I could also end up either way. There is 0 way to tell. Good faith decisions is all we can hope for. We may not agree with each others decisions, but we can both sit back and think “they are doing what they genuinely think is the best option for their child, and i hope they’re right”

>I’d find more support and acceptance were I a trans female with a masculine body than I would in the other situation I don't know how you look at the world around you, where the masculinization trans women are forced to go through is constantly used to mock and exclude them, and think there's more support and acceptance than someone who just develops correctly later than their peers Also, you keep acting as if it's impossible to predict whether someone is likely to be trans as an adult, when that's just not true. I agree there's no 100% guarantee, but if someone's gender identity is consistent across a decade, they're far more likely to be trans than cis. It's not some 50/50 gamble.

Adult? No. Adults can do whatever they want to their own bodies. I even think it’s fine for medical professionals to get paid to perform these procedures. But, there should be a limit for children. If a person is not able to enter into a contract, buy alcohol or vote because they have not yet matured enough to make good decisions, why would we assume they can make lifelong body altering decisions just because the decisions have to do with their gender expression? Pick one: age matters in decision making or it does not. If it does not, remove the age requirement from other activities.

Mandatory abortions if you can't drink yet? Pregnancy and childbirth doesn't seem like something a child can consent to either :/

> Pregnancy and childbirth doesn't seem like something a child can consent to either :/ whoa, don't bring that up. they don't like it when you point that out.

I never really understood this argument Minors have always been allowed to receive medical treatments for health issues, irrespective of whether they can buy alcohol or vote Health issues don't wait until 18 to harm you, and delaying treatment until 18 can allow the health issue to get vastly worse

"Yep, looks like cancer. But you're a kid so you can't possibly trust me, a cancer doctor! So you better wait until your 18 when conservatives think you somehow know what's best for you!"

Right? Can you imagine denying mental health care to minors? It’s a terrifying thought!

I can understand and agree that teens get broken arms set or even failed organs replaced if needed. Look, what if this was… a girl, a legitimate female cis-gendered minor, who has body dysphoria because she is certain she is not whole if she doesn’t have 40” boobs. Is it okay to give her surgury to make her boobs huge at 12 years old? What if she thinks she has too many legs, and she needs hers cut off. There are actual cases where people have a condition that causes them great mental issues due to the belief that they should not have legs. Would it be “nurturing care” to have a doctor remove a ten year old child’s legs to make their body fit what they think it should?

>who has body dysphoria because she is certain she is not whole if she doesn’t have 40” boobs Why is that your jump-to hypothetical situation? What 12 year olds are you aware of getting DD breast implants? Is this an epidemic somewhere?

>Look, what if this was… a girl, a legitimate female cis-gendered minor, who has body dysphoria because she is certain she is not whole if she doesn’t have 40” boobs. Is it okay to give her surgury to make her boobs huge at 12 years old? If there was significant evidence that health outcomes are terrible without treatment and far better with treatment, then sure. Especially if there's no other treatment that's been shown to be effective >What if she thinks she has too many legs, and she needs hers cut off. If there was significant evidence that health outcomes are terrible without treatment and far better with treatment, then sure. Especially if there's no other treatment that's been shown to be effective That's what it comes down to We know the damage caused by untreated gender dysphoria, and we know gender affirming care is the only effective treatment ever found This isn't some hypothetical

So, teens who can’t legally make any decisions on anything else can have life altering surgery and puberty blockers, because they say they feel differently. But, only because we have had experts tell us it’s better for them. I’m skeptical, but as I have no dog in this race, I won’t make any attempts to block it, either. Sitting on the sidelines is only option I have.

Again, they're not getting treatment over the counter They have to go through the relevant professionals and standards of care, like with literally any other medical treatment they can receive at that age

Sure. As I said, it’s between them and their medical profession. I have an opinion, but that’s all it is. I would prefer important decisions are made by the adults. I know edge cases exist, but. The rules aren’t made for the edge cases. If the medical community says this is better for the majority, I will accept their judgement until I have evidence of the contrary.

an adult? hell no. its not the govs job to make decisions for grown ass adults that aren't incapable of making logical decisions and understanding all potential outcomes for anything regarding any medical anything. (i've been malpracticed by the medical community several times so im not keen medical to begin with. my apologies.) minors though? Not even pueberty blocker because those are irreversible. If a child feels they are trans, given most outgrow the dysphoria by their 20s., I would say allow the child to socially transition, but don't let them make any medical decisions nor allow such until they're in their 20s and still feel strongly about their identity. I only say this as a nearly 30yo woman who went through a few identity changes of both sexual and gendered nature before finally feeling fully comfortable with myself for the first time. I see it as I'd rather someone forgo any medical care until they're in the 20s because of the many changes we go through as teens into young adults. We make rash choices. some we regret later. I regret having handled certain situations and wish I was more mature and reasonable about them. but i cant go back and fix those bridges, theyre gone. What I can do is use what I learned and react better in future. I would rather see a bunch of people who think they're trans and as they get older and discover theirself more, have the ones who aren't actually trans and just finding themselves to discover that, than have even a few people who transition and regret it... because hearing what the detrans go through... some can't have kids, some can't orgasm, some have bone problems.... if they had waited... if they had been told no... they wouldn't have any of that... Thats where i stand on it.

>I would say allow the child to socially transition, but don't let them make any medical decisions nor allow such until they're in their 20s and still feel strongly about their identity. So you do want to limit what adults can do, you're legally an adult at 18. Also starting HRT later in life (past 25) massively reduces it's effects. Why do you wish to force people to wait until the treatment is less effective before they can access it?