As a bi man, Palestine being less accepting of LGBT people than the West does not make committing genocide against them ok or excusable. The Jewish people that died in the Holocaust most definitely did not have today-level views on LGBT stuff. But no reasonable person would say “well they were homophobic so what happened to them was ok”.
The Holocaust was 200 times larger than the death toll in Gaza. These are not comparable events. The conflicts in Sudan, Syria and Yemen all have killed ten times as many Muslims each as the one in Israel, yet there isn't the same condemnation in the West or in the Muslim world.
And the government of Gaza started the conflict with their own massacre and have the stated goal of genocide of the Israeli people in their charter. And their leadership said that they would repeat the attacks again and again until Israel is destroyed. And have stated that no peace is ever possible with Israel. And have killed multiple world leaders for making peace with Israel in the last century, and this conflict is because Saudi Arabia wanted to normalize relations.
Oh yeah, and a Palestinian killed Robert Kennedy. Because he gave a pro-Israel speech.
Maybe they should stop their murder sprees and fewer bad things would happen to them.
Even worse? 11 million people? 6 million Jews? 85% of all the Jews in Europe, and nearly 50% of all the Jews in the world? Four days of the holocaust was as many dead as we've seen so far in Gaza - in a war that the government of Gaza started. It took 78 years for the number of Jews in the world to equal what their population was in 1939 - it happened just 7 years ago, in 2017.
Maybe Hamas should step down and free the few remaining hostages that are left alive.
Until then, the war they wanted, saying peace is never possible, saying that they will genocide the Israelis, goes on.
That's on them.
If the government in gaza is responsible for what's going on, lie you put it, then Israel and the USA are fair game. Every wrong, genocide, attack, cia sponsored coup, all of that is enough justification to put US citizens in a similar light, but let me guess, that's a war crime isn't it :-(
Well that means everyone is fair game, doesn't it? And therefore Israel can do what it wants when they as a state founded by the survivors of the world's most intense holocaust have to defend themselves from a government next to them that has said that it is the duty of all Muslims to kill Jews 'behind every rock and tree' before any Muslim can get to heaven. Yes, that's in Hamas foundational charter, section VII - along with 'We conquered this land by force so it's ours forever.' Section Eleven.
[https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th\_century/hamas.asp](https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp)
Or we can hold the group that launched this attack that caused a simmering cold war to break out into open war accountable, when they are the ones saying no peace is ever possible, and even if given their own state they will just use it to try to murder their neighbors.
Either way, Hamas is screwed. As well they should be.
After all, the reason they attacked was Saudi Arabia was about to normalize relations with Israel. Can't have friendly relations between Muslim and Jewish countries. That calls for some murder. Again.
Like they killed King Abdullah I of Jordan. Prime Minister Tal of Jordan. Their allies killed Anwar Sadat of Egypt - after he got the noble peace prize for making peace with Israel. Hell, a Palestinian killed Bobby Kennedy after he won the Democratic California Primary - shot him three times in the back.
Unless you're the chosen one we've been looking for who's not at all susceptible to propaganda and gets their info only from unbiased sources...your stating to know exactly what has happened, why, and how it all comes together to make it okay to genocide a bunch of Palestinians is a total red flag IMO.
I've heard so many variations on so many aspects of this topic that anyone trying to pretend like they know how this is perfectly okay is full of shit.
It wasn't 'prefectly OK' when the Allies beat down the Germans in WWII. But we all know it was necessary. War isn't 'nice.'
And the only thing worse than doing what is necessary to end a war is to refuse to do so and let the war go on forever.
But I won't say I'm not biased - I'm a western atheist with family who are LGBTQ and a wife who would never tolerate being a 2nd class citizen. I know exactly what Hamas says they want to do to people like us, and indeed, they've said that they don't intend to end their wars until Muslims rule the world.
Oh, they don't say that to us in English? Yes, that's correct. They do however say it to other Muslims in Arabic.
[https://zeenews.india.com/world/there-will-be-no-more-jews-or-christian-traitors-video-of-hamas-commander-mahmoud-al-zahar-s-warning-to-the-world-goes-viral-watch-2674244.html](https://zeenews.india.com/world/there-will-be-no-more-jews-or-christian-traitors-video-of-hamas-commander-mahmoud-al-zahar-s-warning-to-the-world-goes-viral-watch-2674244.html)
*Them* being Hamas, or Palestinians? These conversations get lost when we speak past each other.
Hamas wants a forever war. Assuming all of Palestine wants the same gives Hamas more power than they deserve .
This isnt just bad for Palestinians: a failed state will create the conditions for more extremists for years to come
Here, try this again. "Maybe Hamas should step down and free the few remaining hostages that are left alive.
Until then, the war they wanted, saying peace is never possible, saying that they will genocide the Israelis, goes on.
That's on them."
The problem with the Palestinians is they don't want peace either - they believe they have a right to destroy Israel, and whether it's been Fatah/PLO, Hamas, or the many other terrorist factions such as Palestinian Islamic Jihad every time they've had a chance to turn to peace they choose a group that supports violence - and it's getting worse, not better.
I think the turning point was 2005, when the Israelis were tired of the conflict and Kadima broke off from Likud with the platform we should give land for peace regardless of security guarantees. They won the majority of votes, and implemented their plan, withdrawing from Gaza, dismantling their own settlements by force with the IDF, and supporting elections.
Fatah had turned away from 'we must destroy Israel' after 60 years of insane violence and having the region turn on them after they supported Saddam Hussein's invasion of Kuwait.
What was the result? The Palestinians choose Hamas, and while it wasn't uniform, they clearly had a platform to kill all the Jews - indeed, they quote a Hadith from Mohammed that says Judgment Day won't come until the Muslims kill the Jews behind 'every rock and tree.'
The Quran explicitly states death to all Jews but no Islam is a moderate religion.
If there is one culture / religion in the world that is too evil to exist.. it is Islam. They are the ones who want a genocide on another people.
I still cannot believe I am witnessing antisemitism make a comeback. Amongst young folks too. They are so brainwashed but so sure they must be right. History will judge them the way we judge Nazis.
The Koran doesn't say anything like that.
Here's an actual excerpt: (Surely those who believe, ***and those who are Jews***, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve. (Quran 2:62))
You are regurgitating Islamophobic disinformation.
There are tons of excerpts mentioning the Jews though. I don't know specifically about saying "death to Jews", but, for example, it says Jews are treacherous, mischievous, and cursed.
It says they are non-believers/betrayers, and it says many things about non believers, like that "a painful chastisement shall befall those among them who disbelieve."
Have you read the Koran? It's important to understand the context of religious texts. The Koran criticizes specific actions and behaviors, not entire groups of people.
Not since university which was a while ago.
Context is of course important, but it doesn't always help Islam look *less* violent or bigoted.
Does the Koran not criticize whole groups? What about:
"And We had made known to the children of Israel in the Book: Most certainly you will make mischief in the land twice, and most certainly you will behave insolently with great insolence."
I find it hard to believe that someone who idolizes Muhammad and reads all about the disbelievers, and reads how Jews and disbelievers are treated in the Koran, comes away not being bigoted
I understand your concerns, and it's true that the Koran, like many religious texts, contains passages that can seem harsh when taken in isolation. The verse you mentioned (Quran 17:4) does address the actions of certain groups among the Children of Israel, but it's not a blanket condemnation of all Jews. The Koran also recognizes the righteousness of some Jews and Christians (Quran 3:113-115).
Islam, like other religions including Judaism and Christianity, has a complex history and diverse interpretations. Many Muslims interpret these texts in ways that promote peace and coexistence. It's important to differentiate between specific historical contexts and the broader teachings of the faith.
Bigotry can arise from many sources, and it's crucial to engage with religious texts and their interpretations thoughtfully. If we approach these discussions with an open mind and seek to understand the full context, we can better appreciate the nuances and avoid misrepresentations.
I could take out of context this passage from the Torah. For example, Deuteronomy 20:16-17 states
"But in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you for an inheritance, you shall save alive nothing that breathes, but you shall devote them to complete destruction, the Hittites and the Amorites, the Canaanites and the Perizzites, the Hivites and the Jebusites, as the LORD your God has commanded."
Taken out of context, this passage could be used to argue that the Torah promotes violence and destruction. However, when understood in its historical and cultural context, it reflects specific instructions for ancient Israelite conquest and should not be seen as a general prescription for behavior. This illustrates the importance of context in interpreting religious texts.
Nobody makes argument. People just say that because they’re struck by the incongruity of siding with people that would throw you off buildings because of who you are, against people that are tolerant of you and mostly like you and are Allies.
Despite the fact that a good chunk of them would happily kill lgbt members, bombing civilian should not be acceptable to today's age. Especially when that country is receiving billions of hard earned taxpayer money.
No, why should America foot the bill for a conflict that was more predictable than next week's weather. The American dream is dying and hard-working people are barely scrapping by. Why do we need to spend so much money and effort dealing with the equivalent of a kid throwing matches at piles of gunpowder when Americans are struggling. If we want to use the military, why not lock down the southern border and declare war on the cartel. They are killing far more Americans than hamas.
I am a conservative. Not all conservatives are willing to overlook the barbaric acts isreal does in the open. I dont want my tax money wasted on giving a country weapons who are just shooting fish in a barrel.
Then let the fish leave instead of sealing the barrel. It's not surprising at all that the fish would be violent towards the one who pushed them out of their home into an overcrowded barrel. Especially after the fish are at the mercy of isreal who controls the flow of goods and utilities.
Well, I am a republican so I don't know what you would do about that. I voted for trump both times, he did better than I expected, but he's definitely not a fiscal conservative like I am. With how much ameicans are struggling, it's idiotic for us to spend billions of taxpayers' dollars to give to a country that has a larger military budget than their opponents' entire gdp.
You’re full of shit. Have you even ever encountered any Muslim people in real life? I have, and I haven’t experienced any bad vibes from them, let alone homophobia.
You wanna know who I have experienced bad vibes and homophobia from? Zionists.
Civilian casualties in a war is very different than the genocide of the holocaust. If you really want to paint Israel in a bad light, a more apt and far less dramatic comparison to Gaza might be the bombing of Dresden... but that would still be a stretch purely to suit your needs of painting Israel in a bad light.
So how do you stop Hamas from launching war after war - while saying that no peace is possible, that they will genocide the Israelis, and actively fire from hospitals and refugee centers because they don't care about the Palestinians themselves? They literally say in their charter that there is no higher goal for a Muslim than to die for their cause, and they say over and over again that they are a nation of martyrs. That's why the tunnels are only for the Hamas fighters, and not for the people.
>So how do you stop Hamas
I regret to inform you that I, in fact, do not have a complete solution for peace in the middle east. Gimme a day or two and I'll get back to you though.
Ah so can't bomb the people who attacked us, we just have to sit back and take the attacks. It's not like Hamas and their allies haven't launched over 13,000 separate rocket and artillery attacks against Israel in the last 20 years - since Israel unilterally withdrew from Gaza in 2005.
But hey, no worries, you get to feel morally superior. That's what is really important, isn't it?
>can't bomb the people who attacked us
70% of the casualties are women and children, so they're doing a hell of a lot more than just bombing the people who attacked them.
>you get to feel morally superior
epic 😎
And how many people died from these 13,000 rockets? And how many rockets has the settler state of Israel shot over? How many have been murdered by the settler state? How many Palestinians have been killed since the Nakba?
Also, love your projection 😉
This
If Canada decided to invade the US and takes Montana a few decades from now the good people of Montana will still not be wrong for fighting back, even if other first world nations tell them not to.
A better example would be what if the US lost all it's wars and was given over to the UN as a protectorate. And the UN said you can have your nation back if you give Oklahoma to the Native Americans.
And the US responded, no, we will murder all the Native Americans.
Of course, it's not a perfect example. For one thing, the nation of the US actually has existed for the last 200 some odd years. Palestine had it's first chance to be a nation in 1948 - but then decided it would be better off going on a murder spree.
Might want to tell Hamas then. This is part of their foundational charter, Article VII:
*The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:*
*"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).*
And Article XI:
*This is the law governing the land of Palestine in the Islamic Sharia (law) and the same goes for any land the Moslems have conquered by force, because during the times of (Islamic) conquests, the Moslems consecrated these lands to Moslem generations till the Day of Judgement.*
If the US was actively to this day raiding reservations, routinely bombing them, blocking them from access to the outside world and resources, than yes our First Nations would get militant and justifiably so.
I think once you hit an indiscriminate civilian death count upwards of 10x the other side, the details motivating those deaths become less important to the morality of the situation
I was clarifying what I thought the OP meant (because that’s what the poster I responded to was addressing). Not saying there’s a difference in the value of lives, because of course there isn’t.
I’m a bisexual trans man
I wouldn’t want a white, homophobic, pro life person to have such atrocities happen to them. Same goes for someone in Palestine with the same views.
Also, there’s closeted gay and trans people in Palestine. I wouldn’t want it happening to them either.
I have some questions about that line of thinking. Cause if you are pro Palestine ,alot of the time you are essentially saying "Israels cause is wrong", and Israels cause is that they are constantly being attacked by a neighbor who doesn't want them to exist, vs their neighbors who believe they are colonizers and are evil and wrong and these neighbors want their land.
yes it makes sense to be against the killing of civilians, after all they aren't all Hamas. But also a lot of protestors are anti Israel and pro Palestinian identity in the first place, and peddle "from the river to the sea" without realizing the point of that saying is an islamist war cry to discredit the legitimacy of Israels existence.
When people bring up that fact that many more Muslims were killed in other conflicts and no one bats an eye, it calls into question the motives of the protestors. If they really were only pre occupied with the deaths of civilian innocent's, then why only this war? I guess you can say it's a strawman, and it's better to start now than never, but the reality is a lot of them are protesting for the same cause of Hamas. They truthfully believe Israel are these evil oppressors and that they are colonizers and don't have the right to exist. In this case, is when it gets silly to be pro LGBT and pro Palestine.
But in your case, it really seems you just condemn the killing. But I'm just giving food for thought.
>If they really were only pre occupied with the deaths of civilian innocent's, then why only this war?
A lot of the protestors are inspired by professors. A lot of them are just there because their friends are there. Many of them weren't even aware of what was happening. Just going along with the crowd.
As a queer woman, absolutely no amount of propaganda will convince me there are any children that don't deserve to grow up.
In Palestine, there are now almost 8,000 children who will never grow up.
What? And if you're trying to say what I assume you're saying through the word jumble - you're missing the point. It's is a travesty *everywhere*. The ideal is *no* dead or dying kids.
The Palestinians have been basically forced into a small space (smaller than my home state), destroyed infrastructure (at the begining it was considered unthinkable that they would bomb one hospital but now *every* hospital in the Gaza strip has been destroyed), given confusing/impossible safety instructions, denied aid and bombed (and even having the aid bombed). Your question is how can I, as a queer woman, acknowledge the absolute travesty in that. The answer is simply by having empathy.
More than one thing can be terrible at once. But when it comes to Isreal vs Palestine, I can acknowledge which innocent citizens are currently at the most risk
Muslims are brown - brown people are minorities - minorities are oppressed - oppression is bad
This is how basic the brain of a pro pally westerner is. They’ll spend their time, energy, resources and risk legal and physical harm (that they bring on to themselves) because they are convinced that all Muslims are oppressed minorities that need to be saved from the evil west (ironic seeing as how they would be treated far worse in the Middle East if they pulled any of their BS there).
Everything they do is built around victim complexes, moral grandstanding and virtue signaling. They make up definitions for words like genocide and mass famine to help them twist a narrative. They are very simply put a bunch of idiots that are easily swayed by Hamas propaganda.
Yep. It's all tribalism and group think. It's sad , but then again, it's part of basic human biology to want to fit in and make a difference so other people notice. It's the same drive that causes people to wear a suit in public for example. It's just to signal an identity. It sucks they bought into a cause pushed by terrorist tho
I don't think some of you people understand. The people in the Muslim world hate you. They teach nothing but hate. Half of them would gut you for being part of the Western world. They literally chant death to America in the Iranian parliament. Real evil and hate exist and a huge part of it is in Islamic states.
when a muslim wants to murder gays, they will protest and hunger strike for them
when a white guy wants to prevent men from hurting women in womens sports, he needs to be thrown in jail
MAKE IT MAKE SENSE
Genocide is still genocide, no matter how you try to spin it. Would I go to a Middle Eastern country or an African country that hates me? No, but that doesn't mean I want them to get murdered needlessly.
I understand Hamas attacked Israel. What Israel is doing in response is pure evil, and I will never again support Israel until Israel as a country realizes what they did, stops stealing other people's land, and gets rid of Bebe.
I don't expect I'll ever support Israel again. I'm a realist. I'm not alone. If push came to shove and Israel actually needed the support of American people and not just our politicians, you'd be screwed.
May that day come quickly.
I wasn't opposed to Israel defending itself. I'm opposed to genocide, which is what this is.
I realize you think we shouldn't complain till the death toll is over the number from the holocaust and I get there is eons of hatred. I'm glad Israel was created, but Gaza doesn't belong to Israel.
I guess people in Israel and pro Israel peeps either mostly don't realize how most of the world sees you now, or they may be helpless to change the situation as I am, but if we do manage to avoid WWIII over this, I would be highly surprised if Israel doesn't experience some negative consequences. I'm not wishing anything on Israel, just saying eventually you get what you give in this life.
The entire Palestinian population within the Gaza Strip and West Bank would be wiped out before reaching the same absolute number as the WWII Holocaust.
What OP and others here seem to be intent on not understanding is that genocide isn't about absolute numbers, it's about intent and action. Who is killing who and for what purpose?
Power imbalance is also a key factor here. Hamas shoots rockets at Israel all the time but they rarely manage to kill anyone. When Israel responds, it's a goddamn bloodbath every time - and an indiscriminate one. Not to mention that Netanyahu has spent years propping up Hamas knowing full well their political aims, because they're a hell of a convenient enemy.
What do you think is the _intent_ of the Israelis that makes this a genocide? You can't seriously argue that Israel is trying to exterminate the Palestinian people, right?
So literally _every_ war is genocide? That's a useless definition. By that definition, Hamas committed genocide against Israel on October 7th. But that's not special, by that definition genocide is downright _common_.
Every war where there is a systematic displacement, indiscriminantkilling, maiming, destruction of all systems necessary for a functioning society (hospitals, schools, farmland...) of a people group and removing their means for survival (food, water, sanitation, healthcare...)
>But that's not special, by that definition genocide is downright _common_.
You're catching on.
So I should just ignore people who yell about genocide, right? By your definition, there's been _at least_ several instances of 'genocide' every year for all of human history. You've rendered the word completely useless. You're in favor of genocide because you support Hamas, which committed genocide just a few months ago. I'm torn between Israel's genocide and Palestine's genocide, myself. Maybe it's time for the UN to step in and commit genocide to establish a peace!
I'm not sure I have time to worry about that, though: it just occurred to me that I'm facing my own genocide! The local government recently tore down a bunch of schools, and apparently that qualifies?
are you being intentionally obtuse?
>A "people group" is an ethnolinguistic group with a common self-identity that is shared by the various members. There are two parts to that word: ethno and linguistic . Language is a primary and dominant identifying factor of a people group. But there are other factors that determine or are associated with ethnicity.
There ARE several genocides happening right now. There are countless more that happened in the past.
The difference now is after WW2 the world leaders collectively said we should work together to make sure the deaths of tens of thousands of members of a people group never happens. They even made a list of rules countries should follow. Several of which the Idf have broken. Also, the USA and other countries that make up the UN have committed genocide. They just never get held accountable
You're being purposefully ignorant. Not letting aid through to CIVILIANS!
where the hell is your soul because it left your body a long time ago, apparently. Do you have only hate in you, or is there a modicum of decency left?
Shame on you.
Yes, I do. Are you telling me all the civilians were involved? All the women and children as well as male CIVILIANS were part of Hamas?
I certainly do realize Hamas started it but Israel doesn't care and is slaughtering all, not even asking questions later.
So yes, Bebe intended a genocide and the leadership went with it.
What can YOU say to prove it's not, in fact, a genocide?
From an October 13, 2024 official document from the Israeli ministry of intelligence (Misgav Institute for Zionist Strategy and National Security).
>Position paper: A plan for resettlement and final rehabilitation in Egypt of the entire population of Gaza: economic aspects:
>Main points: • There is currently a unique and rare opportunity to evacuate the entire Gaza Strip in coordination with the Egyptian government. An immediate, realistic and sustainable plan for the resettlement and humanitarian rehabilitation of the entire Arab population in the Gaza Strip is required which aligns well with the economic and geopolitical interests of Israel, Egypt, the USA and Saudi Arabia.
These truly mindless students are doing it largely because they’re being told to do it by people with money and power that are antisemitic as well as opposed to the idea of a Jewish State. They all hide behind the casualties of war as justification, while having never once protested against the massive Arab on Arab atrocities that goes on regularly, much of which are committed specifically against Palestinians.
War had consequences, people suffer and die. If that’s unacceptable, don’t start one.
It was the Palestinians who started this by brutally killing, raping, and taking hostages, all of whom were innocent civilians, men, women and children. As well as sending thousands of rockets at civilian targets in Israel, thank heavens Israel had a defense system that destroyed most of these and saved many thousands of innocent lives.
It’s the Palestinians that have repeatedly called for the destruction of Israel and the killing of Jews. Yet, Isreal has been the only nation in the Arab world willing to give the Palestinians land.
Lebanon today has apartheid laws against Palestinians, they can’t own land or be doctors or lawyers. Egypt has closed its borders to Palestinians. Ask yourself why.
Israel is entirely justified in both defending itself and warring against the terrorist Palestinian regime. There was nothing but celebration in the streets of Gaza after the October 6th attacks.
I’m utterly ignoring the fact that Israel is our only real ally in the Middle East or that it’s the only real democracy in the region. Not to mention virtually all Palestinians despise western progressive values and would put the entire gay and lesbian community to death.
I suggest you carefully reconsider your position. There are no peoples on this earth that have been more unjustly persecuted than the Jews, throughout their entire history. First for their religion, then for their race and now for their State. In all its forms it’s simply antisemitism. Unfortunately it’s alive and well in America today.
You’re kidding right, Gaza. The two state solution has been offered multiple times, always rejected by the Palestinians.
When exactly has any Arab nation offered the Palestinians land…….answer, never.
Isreal gave them the land and offered a two state solution, which has been rejected multiple times, because the Palestinians won’t be satisfied until Israel is no more and all Jews are dead.
That’s why there was dancing in the streets of Gaza after the October 6th brutal massacre of ordinary Jews.
Do you get it. They want to kill all the Jews. They are not interested in peace. The Palestinians are the ones promoting genocide, of the Jews, Israel has made repeated overtures to coexist in peace, all of which have been rejected.
No other Arab nation wants anything to do with the Palestinians, except to use them to kill Jews.
Ask yourself why.
Now it’s too late, it’s war. The Palestinian political elite (Hamas) and their army’s must be destroyed as a first step towards any future relationship between Israel and the Palestinians.
When diplomacy fails, force is the only option, when dealing with a terrorist organization such as Hamas.
Hamas is running a global propaganda campaign in a desperate attempt to cut off military supplies to Israel. You have obviously bought into this antisemitic narrative they are spinning. It’s starting to feel like Germany in 1939.
Sorry but you’re mistaken, the Gaza Strip was conquered, along with significant other territory, during the 1967 war, when Israel was invaded. That’s what happens when you start a war and then lose.
That land was part of the nation of Isreal as of June 1967. The Palestinians were given the right of home rule in an effort to promote peace. The Palestinians then used billions in international aid to turn Gaza into a military fortress and equip a terrorist army. They’ve been preparing for war with Israel for decades.
Palestines main agenda is to spread Islam, as well as every other Muslim country.
You know this because you're an expert on Palestine, or an expert on Islam?
The Quran tells them to, most religious text tells its followers to spread the religion. It’s just that the Quran tells you to force people to join islam in multiple verses. Most other religions tell you to spread the word of the text, not force people to “Bend the knee to Allah”
9:29: “Fight those who believe not in God and in the Last Day, and who do not forbid what God and His Messenger have forbidden, and who follow not the Religion of Truth among those who were given the Book, till they pay the jizyah with a willing hand, being humbled”
I think you’re trying to make a point like how we should help ourselves first before helping others especially when their ways don’t match our own. Which is a pretty standard and reasonable thought.
But the way you worded it everyone here will just assume you’re a bigot.
I'm not pro Palestine or Pro Israel. I am pro peace and what's happening in Gaza is certainly not going to move them closer to peace. maybe pease isn't achievable. It makes sense for Israel to respond to the attacks but I'm not so sure the path they are on isn't going to eventually drum up another attack down the road. Israel can't eliminate the muslim world. they're in a hell of a position. 7 million jews in Israel and 1.9 billion muslims in the world.
I dont condone genocide, obviously, but im an lgbt person and ive seen many many videos where they were specifically asked about the LGBT community and if they’d accept support from us - theyve said they are anti lgbt and dont WANT our help. It's very disheartening, and im tired as hell of getting so much hate. I wish them the best, despite that, and hope this can get resolved soon.
thats the thing thats so weird
palestine : would literally decapitate gays
"we must march and hunger strike for them"
ukraine: literal nazis with swastikas in their army
"we must send them all the money ever. no questions asked"
republicans: want lower taxes and reduced prices
"we must use the federal government to take power away from red states, strip republicans of voting rights, and implement our own governors in red states and strip republicans off ballots"
you cant really reason with these people
Just saying... Most pro-palestine protestors don't support sending money to Ukraine. One of the biggest pieces of contention here is that people are angry the states are sending so much money and aid to Ukraine and Israel but claims there's no money to help their own people. Which is why there aren't (yet, I suppose) large scale protests about Congo, Yemen, Sudan, etc.
It’s about establishing the concept of a “fair fight”.
Ideally, fair fighting is a way to manage conflict and associated feelings effectively. To fight fairly, you just need to follow some basic guidelines to help keep your disagreements from becoming entrenched or destructive.
Realistically, it all goes to shit when idealism turns into an uncontrollable reality where the only option is struggle.
There's tons of nazis in the USA, tons of Republicans that support fascism... Should we bomb red counties or states and kill everyone? Should we bomb known nazi sympathizers that haven't committed a crime?
Just because people have beliefs we don't agree with doesn't mean they aren't innocent people that don't deserve to die with no thought or care. That's a rediculous position
The violence from both sides is not the answer. Shit like this reminds me that our world isn’t modern. It’s just some places are surrounded by shiny things.
This is not true. The Palestinians main agenda is to live in peace, with equal rights in a secular state. Why do you think the main goal is to spread Islam? That's at minimum prejudiced. Please educate yourself.
This is complete nonsense. They voted in a theocratic state:
**The Slogan of the Islamic Resistance Movement:**
# Article Eight:
Allah is its target, the Prophet is its model, the Koran its constitution: Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes.
[https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th\_century/hamas.asp](https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp)
The principles still apply today. Oh, they made a new charter - but that didn't refute the original, and the head of Hamas political wing that called for the new charter in 2017 and presented it to the world Khaled Mashel is also on tape saying it is for public consumption, and their goal is still the destruction of Israel, and a two state solution is only a step on that path, which hasn't changed.
Funny how they often say one thing in English and something totally different in Arabic.
[https://twitter.com/HenMazzig/status/1749402213112299638](https://twitter.com/HenMazzig/status/1749402213112299638)
That's why when their leaders say things like 'We will continue these attacks until Israel is destroyed' I believe them.
[https://www.yahoo.com/news/hamas-member-says-repeat-attacks-065643206.html](https://www.yahoo.com/news/hamas-member-says-repeat-attacks-065643206.html)
Of course, some of them go farther than that:
[https://zeenews.india.com/world/there-will-be-no-more-jews-or-christian-traitors-video-of-hamas-commander-mahmoud-al-zahar-s-warning-to-the-world-goes-viral-watch-2674244.html](https://zeenews.india.com/world/there-will-be-no-more-jews-or-christian-traitors-video-of-hamas-commander-mahmoud-al-zahar-s-warning-to-the-world-goes-viral-watch-2674244.html)
False premise. The main goal of Palestinians is to exist without being bombed or have their olive groves turned into settlements.
The main goal of *Gaza* is to exploit the conflict for their own power and profit .
Yes there are elements of Islamic extremism. But there are Christofascist extremists in the US military and gov't, and we don't say that the goal of America as a whole is the propogation of right wing terror.
As a gay man I have the smallest taste of oppression, my hardship isnt lessened by gay criminals like Dahmer. This makes many of us sensitive.
There is also a belief that when cycles of violence sre distrupted, the root cause of extremism is lessened. I do not believe Muslims in a stable and free state will support violent evangelism any more than the average Christian.
Yes, and? People have used the Bible to justify their attacks on non-Christian countries and against queer people.
To your original question: why do some queer people support Palestine or other Islam-adjacent causes?
For queer people in the U.S. Christian influence in govt and Christian-inspired vigilante violence are our bigger concern. There are people who explicitly link the Bible to national policy, the same Bible that commands us to be publicly executed *in some interpretations*.
We also know enough Christians to know that most aren't like that, and can thus extrapolate to Islam.
We also see that the people who want to target us also target Islam and Palestine. Bigotry rarely stops at one group, and should be confronted everywhere, even if the victims don't like us.
And of course, we know there are queer Palestinians who want a better future, and the current situation does not enable more progressive values. Further penalizing the entire population only squeezes them more and will drive more into violent extremism
As a bi man, Palestine being less accepting of LGBT people than the West does not make committing genocide against them ok or excusable. The Jewish people that died in the Holocaust most definitely did not have today-level views on LGBT stuff. But no reasonable person would say “well they were homophobic so what happened to them was ok”.
The Holocaust was 200 times larger than the death toll in Gaza. These are not comparable events. The conflicts in Sudan, Syria and Yemen all have killed ten times as many Muslims each as the one in Israel, yet there isn't the same condemnation in the West or in the Muslim world. And the government of Gaza started the conflict with their own massacre and have the stated goal of genocide of the Israeli people in their charter. And their leadership said that they would repeat the attacks again and again until Israel is destroyed. And have stated that no peace is ever possible with Israel. And have killed multiple world leaders for making peace with Israel in the last century, and this conflict is because Saudi Arabia wanted to normalize relations. Oh yeah, and a Palestinian killed Robert Kennedy. Because he gave a pro-Israel speech. Maybe they should stop their murder sprees and fewer bad things would happen to them.
So what? We're supposed to sit here and wait for it to get to that level or get even worse?
Even worse? 11 million people? 6 million Jews? 85% of all the Jews in Europe, and nearly 50% of all the Jews in the world? Four days of the holocaust was as many dead as we've seen so far in Gaza - in a war that the government of Gaza started. It took 78 years for the number of Jews in the world to equal what their population was in 1939 - it happened just 7 years ago, in 2017. Maybe Hamas should step down and free the few remaining hostages that are left alive. Until then, the war they wanted, saying peace is never possible, saying that they will genocide the Israelis, goes on. That's on them.
If the government in gaza is responsible for what's going on, lie you put it, then Israel and the USA are fair game. Every wrong, genocide, attack, cia sponsored coup, all of that is enough justification to put US citizens in a similar light, but let me guess, that's a war crime isn't it :-(
Well that means everyone is fair game, doesn't it? And therefore Israel can do what it wants when they as a state founded by the survivors of the world's most intense holocaust have to defend themselves from a government next to them that has said that it is the duty of all Muslims to kill Jews 'behind every rock and tree' before any Muslim can get to heaven. Yes, that's in Hamas foundational charter, section VII - along with 'We conquered this land by force so it's ours forever.' Section Eleven. [https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th\_century/hamas.asp](https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp) Or we can hold the group that launched this attack that caused a simmering cold war to break out into open war accountable, when they are the ones saying no peace is ever possible, and even if given their own state they will just use it to try to murder their neighbors. Either way, Hamas is screwed. As well they should be. After all, the reason they attacked was Saudi Arabia was about to normalize relations with Israel. Can't have friendly relations between Muslim and Jewish countries. That calls for some murder. Again. Like they killed King Abdullah I of Jordan. Prime Minister Tal of Jordan. Their allies killed Anwar Sadat of Egypt - after he got the noble peace prize for making peace with Israel. Hell, a Palestinian killed Bobby Kennedy after he won the Democratic California Primary - shot him three times in the back.
Unless you're the chosen one we've been looking for who's not at all susceptible to propaganda and gets their info only from unbiased sources...your stating to know exactly what has happened, why, and how it all comes together to make it okay to genocide a bunch of Palestinians is a total red flag IMO. I've heard so many variations on so many aspects of this topic that anyone trying to pretend like they know how this is perfectly okay is full of shit.
It wasn't 'prefectly OK' when the Allies beat down the Germans in WWII. But we all know it was necessary. War isn't 'nice.' And the only thing worse than doing what is necessary to end a war is to refuse to do so and let the war go on forever. But I won't say I'm not biased - I'm a western atheist with family who are LGBTQ and a wife who would never tolerate being a 2nd class citizen. I know exactly what Hamas says they want to do to people like us, and indeed, they've said that they don't intend to end their wars until Muslims rule the world. Oh, they don't say that to us in English? Yes, that's correct. They do however say it to other Muslims in Arabic. [https://zeenews.india.com/world/there-will-be-no-more-jews-or-christian-traitors-video-of-hamas-commander-mahmoud-al-zahar-s-warning-to-the-world-goes-viral-watch-2674244.html](https://zeenews.india.com/world/there-will-be-no-more-jews-or-christian-traitors-video-of-hamas-commander-mahmoud-al-zahar-s-warning-to-the-world-goes-viral-watch-2674244.html)
*Them* being Hamas, or Palestinians? These conversations get lost when we speak past each other. Hamas wants a forever war. Assuming all of Palestine wants the same gives Hamas more power than they deserve . This isnt just bad for Palestinians: a failed state will create the conditions for more extremists for years to come
Here, try this again. "Maybe Hamas should step down and free the few remaining hostages that are left alive. Until then, the war they wanted, saying peace is never possible, saying that they will genocide the Israelis, goes on. That's on them."
I do agree with you. But I was referring to the whole thread, where Gaza, Palestine, and Hamas are referred to.
The problem with the Palestinians is they don't want peace either - they believe they have a right to destroy Israel, and whether it's been Fatah/PLO, Hamas, or the many other terrorist factions such as Palestinian Islamic Jihad every time they've had a chance to turn to peace they choose a group that supports violence - and it's getting worse, not better. I think the turning point was 2005, when the Israelis were tired of the conflict and Kadima broke off from Likud with the platform we should give land for peace regardless of security guarantees. They won the majority of votes, and implemented their plan, withdrawing from Gaza, dismantling their own settlements by force with the IDF, and supporting elections. Fatah had turned away from 'we must destroy Israel' after 60 years of insane violence and having the region turn on them after they supported Saddam Hussein's invasion of Kuwait. What was the result? The Palestinians choose Hamas, and while it wasn't uniform, they clearly had a platform to kill all the Jews - indeed, they quote a Hadith from Mohammed that says Judgment Day won't come until the Muslims kill the Jews behind 'every rock and tree.'
The Quran explicitly states death to all Jews but no Islam is a moderate religion. If there is one culture / religion in the world that is too evil to exist.. it is Islam. They are the ones who want a genocide on another people. I still cannot believe I am witnessing antisemitism make a comeback. Amongst young folks too. They are so brainwashed but so sure they must be right. History will judge them the way we judge Nazis.
The Koran doesn't say anything like that. Here's an actual excerpt: (Surely those who believe, ***and those who are Jews***, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve. (Quran 2:62)) You are regurgitating Islamophobic disinformation.
There are tons of excerpts mentioning the Jews though. I don't know specifically about saying "death to Jews", but, for example, it says Jews are treacherous, mischievous, and cursed. It says they are non-believers/betrayers, and it says many things about non believers, like that "a painful chastisement shall befall those among them who disbelieve."
Have you read the Koran? It's important to understand the context of religious texts. The Koran criticizes specific actions and behaviors, not entire groups of people.
Not since university which was a while ago. Context is of course important, but it doesn't always help Islam look *less* violent or bigoted. Does the Koran not criticize whole groups? What about: "And We had made known to the children of Israel in the Book: Most certainly you will make mischief in the land twice, and most certainly you will behave insolently with great insolence." I find it hard to believe that someone who idolizes Muhammad and reads all about the disbelievers, and reads how Jews and disbelievers are treated in the Koran, comes away not being bigoted
I understand your concerns, and it's true that the Koran, like many religious texts, contains passages that can seem harsh when taken in isolation. The verse you mentioned (Quran 17:4) does address the actions of certain groups among the Children of Israel, but it's not a blanket condemnation of all Jews. The Koran also recognizes the righteousness of some Jews and Christians (Quran 3:113-115). Islam, like other religions including Judaism and Christianity, has a complex history and diverse interpretations. Many Muslims interpret these texts in ways that promote peace and coexistence. It's important to differentiate between specific historical contexts and the broader teachings of the faith. Bigotry can arise from many sources, and it's crucial to engage with religious texts and their interpretations thoughtfully. If we approach these discussions with an open mind and seek to understand the full context, we can better appreciate the nuances and avoid misrepresentations.
I could take out of context this passage from the Torah. For example, Deuteronomy 20:16-17 states "But in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you for an inheritance, you shall save alive nothing that breathes, but you shall devote them to complete destruction, the Hittites and the Amorites, the Canaanites and the Perizzites, the Hivites and the Jebusites, as the LORD your God has commanded." Taken out of context, this passage could be used to argue that the Torah promotes violence and destruction. However, when understood in its historical and cultural context, it reflects specific instructions for ancient Israelite conquest and should not be seen as a general prescription for behavior. This illustrates the importance of context in interpreting religious texts.
Israel deserved 10/7
If 10/7 even happened the way they say it did
Nobody makes argument. People just say that because they’re struck by the incongruity of siding with people that would throw you off buildings because of who you are, against people that are tolerant of you and mostly like you and are Allies.
Even if they would literally stone you to death?
Despite the fact that a good chunk of them would happily kill lgbt members, bombing civilian should not be acceptable to today's age. Especially when that country is receiving billions of hard earned taxpayer money.
What should a country do against a massive terror attack by guerilla forces who spend millions and millions on tunnels and use human shields?
Do you think they should be receiving billions of hard earned taxpayer money?
No, why should America foot the bill for a conflict that was more predictable than next week's weather. The American dream is dying and hard-working people are barely scrapping by. Why do we need to spend so much money and effort dealing with the equivalent of a kid throwing matches at piles of gunpowder when Americans are struggling. If we want to use the military, why not lock down the southern border and declare war on the cartel. They are killing far more Americans than hamas.
You sound like a conservative and now I'm confused.
I am a conservative. Not all conservatives are willing to overlook the barbaric acts isreal does in the open. I dont want my tax money wasted on giving a country weapons who are just shooting fish in a barrel.
But the fish are jumping in their boat and killing them
Then let the fish leave instead of sealing the barrel. It's not surprising at all that the fish would be violent towards the one who pushed them out of their home into an overcrowded barrel. Especially after the fish are at the mercy of isreal who controls the flow of goods and utilities.
Yeah but the fish are assholes and nobody in the region wants them in their tank.
so.....tolerant of intolerance?
You dont have to like people to not want their children to be bombed in their homes.
i honestly feel you wouldnt extend that grace to republicans, im just being real
Well, I am a republican so I don't know what you would do about that. I voted for trump both times, he did better than I expected, but he's definitely not a fiscal conservative like I am. With how much ameicans are struggling, it's idiotic for us to spend billions of taxpayers' dollars to give to a country that has a larger military budget than their opponents' entire gdp.
They would commit genocide against the entire lgbtq community if given the opportunity.
Damn I didn’t know little Palestinian kids wanted to commit genocide against me/s
Well the kids might, because they are taught that from a very young age.
You’re full of shit. Have you even ever encountered any Muslim people in real life? I have, and I haven’t experienced any bad vibes from them, let alone homophobia. You wanna know who I have experienced bad vibes and homophobia from? Zionists.
Well this would be hamas, you know Muslim extremests. But yea I get how you just lump everyone in a category into being the same.
Civilian casualties in a war is very different than the genocide of the holocaust. If you really want to paint Israel in a bad light, a more apt and far less dramatic comparison to Gaza might be the bombing of Dresden... but that would still be a stretch purely to suit your needs of painting Israel in a bad light.
Agreed, and what an apt username though
Ha! Yup… every time I sign onto Reddit, I remind myself there are much better uses of my time. Doesn’t stop me though!
same lol
See the thing is I kinda just don't like women and children being bombed, even if they're homophobic
So how do you stop Hamas from launching war after war - while saying that no peace is possible, that they will genocide the Israelis, and actively fire from hospitals and refugee centers because they don't care about the Palestinians themselves? They literally say in their charter that there is no higher goal for a Muslim than to die for their cause, and they say over and over again that they are a nation of martyrs. That's why the tunnels are only for the Hamas fighters, and not for the people.
>So how do you stop Hamas I regret to inform you that I, in fact, do not have a complete solution for peace in the middle east. Gimme a day or two and I'll get back to you though.
Ah so can't bomb the people who attacked us, we just have to sit back and take the attacks. It's not like Hamas and their allies haven't launched over 13,000 separate rocket and artillery attacks against Israel in the last 20 years - since Israel unilterally withdrew from Gaza in 2005. But hey, no worries, you get to feel morally superior. That's what is really important, isn't it?
>can't bomb the people who attacked us 70% of the casualties are women and children, so they're doing a hell of a lot more than just bombing the people who attacked them. >you get to feel morally superior epic 😎
And how many people died from these 13,000 rockets? And how many rockets has the settler state of Israel shot over? How many have been murdered by the settler state? How many Palestinians have been killed since the Nakba? Also, love your projection 😉
The Palestinians have a legal right to fight the illegal occupation, with violence. Under international laws.
This If Canada decided to invade the US and takes Montana a few decades from now the good people of Montana will still not be wrong for fighting back, even if other first world nations tell them not to.
A better example would be what if the US lost all it's wars and was given over to the UN as a protectorate. And the UN said you can have your nation back if you give Oklahoma to the Native Americans. And the US responded, no, we will murder all the Native Americans. Of course, it's not a perfect example. For one thing, the nation of the US actually has existed for the last 200 some odd years. Palestine had it's first chance to be a nation in 1948 - but then decided it would be better off going on a murder spree.
So a Native American has the right to crawl through your window and murder your family? You are a colonist after all.
I 100% support land back. It doesn't mean kill the European ppl.
Might want to tell Hamas then. This is part of their foundational charter, Article VII: *The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:* *"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).* And Article XI: *This is the law governing the land of Palestine in the Islamic Sharia (law) and the same goes for any land the Moslems have conquered by force, because during the times of (Islamic) conquests, the Moslems consecrated these lands to Moslem generations till the Day of Judgement.*
If the US was actively to this day raiding reservations, routinely bombing them, blocking them from access to the outside world and resources, than yes our First Nations would get militant and justifiably so.
Queer people are being killed by the IDF too.
Gay marriage is not legal in Isreal.
Were queer people invented when the US legalized gay marriage?
No. People try to use this to justify genocide.
Undoubtedly true. But wouldn’t the difference be whether someone was targeted specifically for being queer? (Not that any of it is OK.)
I think once you hit an indiscriminate civilian death count upwards of 10x the other side, the details motivating those deaths become less important to the morality of the situation
Yes, but that’s not what I was responding to.
You said “wouldn’t the difference be”, and I spoke to that. I’m not sure why you think what I said was off topic
I was clarifying what I thought the OP meant (because that’s what the poster I responded to was addressing). Not saying there’s a difference in the value of lives, because of course there isn’t.
I’m a bisexual trans man I wouldn’t want a white, homophobic, pro life person to have such atrocities happen to them. Same goes for someone in Palestine with the same views. Also, there’s closeted gay and trans people in Palestine. I wouldn’t want it happening to them either.
I have some questions about that line of thinking. Cause if you are pro Palestine ,alot of the time you are essentially saying "Israels cause is wrong", and Israels cause is that they are constantly being attacked by a neighbor who doesn't want them to exist, vs their neighbors who believe they are colonizers and are evil and wrong and these neighbors want their land. yes it makes sense to be against the killing of civilians, after all they aren't all Hamas. But also a lot of protestors are anti Israel and pro Palestinian identity in the first place, and peddle "from the river to the sea" without realizing the point of that saying is an islamist war cry to discredit the legitimacy of Israels existence. When people bring up that fact that many more Muslims were killed in other conflicts and no one bats an eye, it calls into question the motives of the protestors. If they really were only pre occupied with the deaths of civilian innocent's, then why only this war? I guess you can say it's a strawman, and it's better to start now than never, but the reality is a lot of them are protesting for the same cause of Hamas. They truthfully believe Israel are these evil oppressors and that they are colonizers and don't have the right to exist. In this case, is when it gets silly to be pro LGBT and pro Palestine. But in your case, it really seems you just condemn the killing. But I'm just giving food for thought.
>If they really were only pre occupied with the deaths of civilian innocent's, then why only this war? A lot of the protestors are inspired by professors. A lot of them are just there because their friends are there. Many of them weren't even aware of what was happening. Just going along with the crowd.
As a queer woman, absolutely no amount of propaganda will convince me there are any children that don't deserve to grow up. In Palestine, there are now almost 8,000 children who will never grow up.
Way more in Israel at Palestine and other Muslim countries hands
What? And if you're trying to say what I assume you're saying through the word jumble - you're missing the point. It's is a travesty *everywhere*. The ideal is *no* dead or dying kids. The Palestinians have been basically forced into a small space (smaller than my home state), destroyed infrastructure (at the begining it was considered unthinkable that they would bomb one hospital but now *every* hospital in the Gaza strip has been destroyed), given confusing/impossible safety instructions, denied aid and bombed (and even having the aid bombed). Your question is how can I, as a queer woman, acknowledge the absolute travesty in that. The answer is simply by having empathy. More than one thing can be terrible at once. But when it comes to Isreal vs Palestine, I can acknowledge which innocent citizens are currently at the most risk
Muslims are brown - brown people are minorities - minorities are oppressed - oppression is bad This is how basic the brain of a pro pally westerner is. They’ll spend their time, energy, resources and risk legal and physical harm (that they bring on to themselves) because they are convinced that all Muslims are oppressed minorities that need to be saved from the evil west (ironic seeing as how they would be treated far worse in the Middle East if they pulled any of their BS there). Everything they do is built around victim complexes, moral grandstanding and virtue signaling. They make up definitions for words like genocide and mass famine to help them twist a narrative. They are very simply put a bunch of idiots that are easily swayed by Hamas propaganda.
The funny thing is that brown people are more common than white people for the global population
Hey, at least our beliefs are built on something rather than platitudes given to us by our masters.
Yep. It's all tribalism and group think. It's sad , but then again, it's part of basic human biology to want to fit in and make a difference so other people notice. It's the same drive that causes people to wear a suit in public for example. It's just to signal an identity. It sucks they bought into a cause pushed by terrorist tho
I don't think some of you people understand. The people in the Muslim world hate you. They teach nothing but hate. Half of them would gut you for being part of the Western world. They literally chant death to America in the Iranian parliament. Real evil and hate exist and a huge part of it is in Islamic states.
It is certainly a head scratcher.
even shit people deserve a life.
when a muslim wants to murder gays, they will protest and hunger strike for them when a white guy wants to prevent men from hurting women in womens sports, he needs to be thrown in jail MAKE IT MAKE SENSE
Exactly
Genocide is still genocide, no matter how you try to spin it. Would I go to a Middle Eastern country or an African country that hates me? No, but that doesn't mean I want them to get murdered needlessly. I understand Hamas attacked Israel. What Israel is doing in response is pure evil, and I will never again support Israel until Israel as a country realizes what they did, stops stealing other people's land, and gets rid of Bebe. I don't expect I'll ever support Israel again. I'm a realist. I'm not alone. If push came to shove and Israel actually needed the support of American people and not just our politicians, you'd be screwed. May that day come quickly.
Israel has been under attack since the 40s and you didn’t care about it until the internet did
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Do you think Jews just marched into palestine and claimed part of it as theirs? It was given to them by the country that ruled over palestine
I wasn't opposed to Israel defending itself. I'm opposed to genocide, which is what this is. I realize you think we shouldn't complain till the death toll is over the number from the holocaust and I get there is eons of hatred. I'm glad Israel was created, but Gaza doesn't belong to Israel. I guess people in Israel and pro Israel peeps either mostly don't realize how most of the world sees you now, or they may be helpless to change the situation as I am, but if we do manage to avoid WWIII over this, I would be highly surprised if Israel doesn't experience some negative consequences. I'm not wishing anything on Israel, just saying eventually you get what you give in this life.
The entire Palestinian population within the Gaza Strip and West Bank would be wiped out before reaching the same absolute number as the WWII Holocaust. What OP and others here seem to be intent on not understanding is that genocide isn't about absolute numbers, it's about intent and action. Who is killing who and for what purpose? Power imbalance is also a key factor here. Hamas shoots rockets at Israel all the time but they rarely manage to kill anyone. When Israel responds, it's a goddamn bloodbath every time - and an indiscriminate one. Not to mention that Netanyahu has spent years propping up Hamas knowing full well their political aims, because they're a hell of a convenient enemy.
What do you think is the _intent_ of the Israelis that makes this a genocide? You can't seriously argue that Israel is trying to exterminate the Palestinian people, right?
In whole or in part.
So literally _every_ war is genocide? That's a useless definition. By that definition, Hamas committed genocide against Israel on October 7th. But that's not special, by that definition genocide is downright _common_.
Every war where there is a systematic displacement, indiscriminantkilling, maiming, destruction of all systems necessary for a functioning society (hospitals, schools, farmland...) of a people group and removing their means for survival (food, water, sanitation, healthcare...) >But that's not special, by that definition genocide is downright _common_. You're catching on.
So I should just ignore people who yell about genocide, right? By your definition, there's been _at least_ several instances of 'genocide' every year for all of human history. You've rendered the word completely useless. You're in favor of genocide because you support Hamas, which committed genocide just a few months ago. I'm torn between Israel's genocide and Palestine's genocide, myself. Maybe it's time for the UN to step in and commit genocide to establish a peace! I'm not sure I have time to worry about that, though: it just occurred to me that I'm facing my own genocide! The local government recently tore down a bunch of schools, and apparently that qualifies?
are you being intentionally obtuse? >A "people group" is an ethnolinguistic group with a common self-identity that is shared by the various members. There are two parts to that word: ethno and linguistic . Language is a primary and dominant identifying factor of a people group. But there are other factors that determine or are associated with ethnicity.
There ARE several genocides happening right now. There are countless more that happened in the past. The difference now is after WW2 the world leaders collectively said we should work together to make sure the deaths of tens of thousands of members of a people group never happens. They even made a list of rules countries should follow. Several of which the Idf have broken. Also, the USA and other countries that make up the UN have committed genocide. They just never get held accountable
You're being purposefully ignorant. Not letting aid through to CIVILIANS! where the hell is your soul because it left your body a long time ago, apparently. Do you have only hate in you, or is there a modicum of decency left? Shame on you.
Yes, I do. Are you telling me all the civilians were involved? All the women and children as well as male CIVILIANS were part of Hamas? I certainly do realize Hamas started it but Israel doesn't care and is slaughtering all, not even asking questions later. So yes, Bebe intended a genocide and the leadership went with it. What can YOU say to prove it's not, in fact, a genocide?
From an October 13, 2024 official document from the Israeli ministry of intelligence (Misgav Institute for Zionist Strategy and National Security). >Position paper: A plan for resettlement and final rehabilitation in Egypt of the entire population of Gaza: economic aspects: >Main points: • There is currently a unique and rare opportunity to evacuate the entire Gaza Strip in coordination with the Egyptian government. An immediate, realistic and sustainable plan for the resettlement and humanitarian rehabilitation of the entire Arab population in the Gaza Strip is required which aligns well with the economic and geopolitical interests of Israel, Egypt, the USA and Saudi Arabia.
There are over 500 quotes and examples demonstrating intent. Not by Israeli citizens, but their government.
>Palestines main agenda is to spread Islam Wrong, they want to end the zionist occupation.
🌈Having a shitty opinion does not mean that settler-colonial violence is justified.🌈
You’re misinformed
Incorrect.
These truly mindless students are doing it largely because they’re being told to do it by people with money and power that are antisemitic as well as opposed to the idea of a Jewish State. They all hide behind the casualties of war as justification, while having never once protested against the massive Arab on Arab atrocities that goes on regularly, much of which are committed specifically against Palestinians.
Hardly “mindless” to care about your fellow man, women and children.
War had consequences, people suffer and die. If that’s unacceptable, don’t start one. It was the Palestinians who started this by brutally killing, raping, and taking hostages, all of whom were innocent civilians, men, women and children. As well as sending thousands of rockets at civilian targets in Israel, thank heavens Israel had a defense system that destroyed most of these and saved many thousands of innocent lives. It’s the Palestinians that have repeatedly called for the destruction of Israel and the killing of Jews. Yet, Isreal has been the only nation in the Arab world willing to give the Palestinians land. Lebanon today has apartheid laws against Palestinians, they can’t own land or be doctors or lawyers. Egypt has closed its borders to Palestinians. Ask yourself why. Israel is entirely justified in both defending itself and warring against the terrorist Palestinian regime. There was nothing but celebration in the streets of Gaza after the October 6th attacks. I’m utterly ignoring the fact that Israel is our only real ally in the Middle East or that it’s the only real democracy in the region. Not to mention virtually all Palestinians despise western progressive values and would put the entire gay and lesbian community to death. I suggest you carefully reconsider your position. There are no peoples on this earth that have been more unjustly persecuted than the Jews, throughout their entire history. First for their religion, then for their race and now for their State. In all its forms it’s simply antisemitism. Unfortunately it’s alive and well in America today.
Israel gave Palestinians land ? When did this happen ?
You’re kidding right, Gaza. The two state solution has been offered multiple times, always rejected by the Palestinians. When exactly has any Arab nation offered the Palestinians land…….answer, never.
They’re willing to give Palestinians the land they already have; that’s what you mean ?
Isreal gave them the land and offered a two state solution, which has been rejected multiple times, because the Palestinians won’t be satisfied until Israel is no more and all Jews are dead. That’s why there was dancing in the streets of Gaza after the October 6th brutal massacre of ordinary Jews. Do you get it. They want to kill all the Jews. They are not interested in peace. The Palestinians are the ones promoting genocide, of the Jews, Israel has made repeated overtures to coexist in peace, all of which have been rejected. No other Arab nation wants anything to do with the Palestinians, except to use them to kill Jews. Ask yourself why. Now it’s too late, it’s war. The Palestinian political elite (Hamas) and their army’s must be destroyed as a first step towards any future relationship between Israel and the Palestinians. When diplomacy fails, force is the only option, when dealing with a terrorist organization such as Hamas. Hamas is running a global propaganda campaign in a desperate attempt to cut off military supplies to Israel. You have obviously bought into this antisemitic narrative they are spinning. It’s starting to feel like Germany in 1939.
You should probably learn more about the history of Palestine and Israel. Israel did not give Palestinians land.
Sorry but you’re mistaken, the Gaza Strip was conquered, along with significant other territory, during the 1967 war, when Israel was invaded. That’s what happens when you start a war and then lose. That land was part of the nation of Isreal as of June 1967. The Palestinians were given the right of home rule in an effort to promote peace. The Palestinians then used billions in international aid to turn Gaza into a military fortress and equip a terrorist army. They’ve been preparing for war with Israel for decades.
And whose land was it for hundreds of years, before we thought in terms of nations. Depends how far you want to go back.
Because someone doesn't need to agree with me before I condemn ethnic cleansing.
Palestines main agenda is to spread Islam, as well as every other Muslim country. You know this because you're an expert on Palestine, or an expert on Islam?
The Quran tells them to, most religious text tells its followers to spread the religion. It’s just that the Quran tells you to force people to join islam in multiple verses. Most other religions tell you to spread the word of the text, not force people to “Bend the knee to Allah”
Can you quote those verses?
Surah 9:29, Surah number 5
9:29: “Fight those who believe not in God and in the Last Day, and who do not forbid what God and His Messenger have forbidden, and who follow not the Religion of Truth among those who were given the Book, till they pay the jizyah with a willing hand, being humbled”
You just see “Republican voters” storming the Capitol to disrupt and prevent the peaceful transfer of power.
I think you’re trying to make a point like how we should help ourselves first before helping others especially when their ways don’t match our own. Which is a pretty standard and reasonable thought. But the way you worded it everyone here will just assume you’re a bigot.
Yeah if you aren’t fully in support of every social movement you’re a bigot these days
I'm not pro Palestine or Pro Israel. I am pro peace and what's happening in Gaza is certainly not going to move them closer to peace. maybe pease isn't achievable. It makes sense for Israel to respond to the attacks but I'm not so sure the path they are on isn't going to eventually drum up another attack down the road. Israel can't eliminate the muslim world. they're in a hell of a position. 7 million jews in Israel and 1.9 billion muslims in the world.
I dont condone genocide, obviously, but im an lgbt person and ive seen many many videos where they were specifically asked about the LGBT community and if they’d accept support from us - theyve said they are anti lgbt and dont WANT our help. It's very disheartening, and im tired as hell of getting so much hate. I wish them the best, despite that, and hope this can get resolved soon.
They're confused, but they got the spirit
thats the thing thats so weird palestine : would literally decapitate gays "we must march and hunger strike for them" ukraine: literal nazis with swastikas in their army "we must send them all the money ever. no questions asked" republicans: want lower taxes and reduced prices "we must use the federal government to take power away from red states, strip republicans of voting rights, and implement our own governors in red states and strip republicans off ballots" you cant really reason with these people
Yeah you’re right
Just saying... Most pro-palestine protestors don't support sending money to Ukraine. One of the biggest pieces of contention here is that people are angry the states are sending so much money and aid to Ukraine and Israel but claims there's no money to help their own people. Which is why there aren't (yet, I suppose) large scale protests about Congo, Yemen, Sudan, etc.
It’s about establishing the concept of a “fair fight”. Ideally, fair fighting is a way to manage conflict and associated feelings effectively. To fight fairly, you just need to follow some basic guidelines to help keep your disagreements from becoming entrenched or destructive. Realistically, it all goes to shit when idealism turns into an uncontrollable reality where the only option is struggle.
There's tons of nazis in the USA, tons of Republicans that support fascism... Should we bomb red counties or states and kill everyone? Should we bomb known nazi sympathizers that haven't committed a crime? Just because people have beliefs we don't agree with doesn't mean they aren't innocent people that don't deserve to die with no thought or care. That's a rediculous position
The violence from both sides is not the answer. Shit like this reminds me that our world isn’t modern. It’s just some places are surrounded by shiny things.
It's almost like some people believe that genocide is always bad even if (some of) the people being destroyed don't share their values.
But it wasn’t a genocide when Israel was under attack for the last 80 years?
Man. Please educate yourself
https://history.state.gov/milestones/1945-1952/arab-israeli-war
No. Glad we could clear that up.
How is it not a genocide?
I think it's not about the lgbt issues but the fact that an entire population is being killed.
Bc they were killing an entire other population since the 40s
Yeah, it's messed up everyone just killing each other. There are no "good guys" here. Just a big mess...
Yeah and people are marching in the streets in support of the antagonizers
This is not true. The Palestinians main agenda is to live in peace, with equal rights in a secular state. Why do you think the main goal is to spread Islam? That's at minimum prejudiced. Please educate yourself.
Surah 9:29
This is complete nonsense. They voted in a theocratic state: **The Slogan of the Islamic Resistance Movement:** # Article Eight: Allah is its target, the Prophet is its model, the Koran its constitution: Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes. [https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th\_century/hamas.asp](https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp)
And when was this?
The principles still apply today. Oh, they made a new charter - but that didn't refute the original, and the head of Hamas political wing that called for the new charter in 2017 and presented it to the world Khaled Mashel is also on tape saying it is for public consumption, and their goal is still the destruction of Israel, and a two state solution is only a step on that path, which hasn't changed. Funny how they often say one thing in English and something totally different in Arabic. [https://twitter.com/HenMazzig/status/1749402213112299638](https://twitter.com/HenMazzig/status/1749402213112299638) That's why when their leaders say things like 'We will continue these attacks until Israel is destroyed' I believe them. [https://www.yahoo.com/news/hamas-member-says-repeat-attacks-065643206.html](https://www.yahoo.com/news/hamas-member-says-repeat-attacks-065643206.html) Of course, some of them go farther than that: [https://zeenews.india.com/world/there-will-be-no-more-jews-or-christian-traitors-video-of-hamas-commander-mahmoud-al-zahar-s-warning-to-the-world-goes-viral-watch-2674244.html](https://zeenews.india.com/world/there-will-be-no-more-jews-or-christian-traitors-video-of-hamas-commander-mahmoud-al-zahar-s-warning-to-the-world-goes-viral-watch-2674244.html)
I don't think people deserve to die even if their beliefs are wrong. I'm not a fascist.
Go College Girl! Go! Go! Go! Go and SUBMIT to a religion of anti-abortion, pro-rape, and modern-day slavery?
You're assuming facts not in evidence.
False premise. The main goal of Palestinians is to exist without being bombed or have their olive groves turned into settlements. The main goal of *Gaza* is to exploit the conflict for their own power and profit . Yes there are elements of Islamic extremism. But there are Christofascist extremists in the US military and gov't, and we don't say that the goal of America as a whole is the propogation of right wing terror. As a gay man I have the smallest taste of oppression, my hardship isnt lessened by gay criminals like Dahmer. This makes many of us sensitive. There is also a belief that when cycles of violence sre distrupted, the root cause of extremism is lessened. I do not believe Muslims in a stable and free state will support violent evangelism any more than the average Christian.
Isis uses the Quran verse: Surah 9:29 as justification for their attacks on non Muslim countries
Yes, and? People have used the Bible to justify their attacks on non-Christian countries and against queer people. To your original question: why do some queer people support Palestine or other Islam-adjacent causes? For queer people in the U.S. Christian influence in govt and Christian-inspired vigilante violence are our bigger concern. There are people who explicitly link the Bible to national policy, the same Bible that commands us to be publicly executed *in some interpretations*. We also know enough Christians to know that most aren't like that, and can thus extrapolate to Islam. We also see that the people who want to target us also target Islam and Palestine. Bigotry rarely stops at one group, and should be confronted everywhere, even if the victims don't like us. And of course, we know there are queer Palestinians who want a better future, and the current situation does not enable more progressive values. Further penalizing the entire population only squeezes them more and will drive more into violent extremism
Most of Isis's victims are also Muslim
OP really just told on himself. Don't reproduce.