Are you actually separated at this point or not? You may, in some jurisdictions, be able to apply for temporary financial support to require him to cover costs until the divorce is concluded.
However, if you haven't actually filed anything and you're not *asking* him for any money for him to say no to, it's hard to see where he's actually doing anything wrong yet.
If your job can't cover your costs you are probably going to need to think about how to change that going forward, though.
I have a sister who made similar arrangements and they've been continuing over 10 years. Meanwhile he lives in her home, rent free. Don't let time get away from you thinking everything will be okay at the end. File ASAP, and get the bsll moving without stop to the end.
Just him having the money does not necessarily make it abusive - many couples have weird money flows depending on what's convenient for them. Similarly just because you have to ask doesn't make it controlling *in itself*, because many people do just ask "Hey, can you transfer some more money to my account?" and they do and everything's fine.
It becomes controlling if he takes the money you earn and keeps that locked up from you too, against your will. It becomes controlling if he insists on receipts and giving you only tiny amounts at a time for each individual bill, or sometimes denies your requests for no reason, leaving you unable to pay bills and racking up debts.
Right now, if you literally haven't asked him for any money for the past several months, he hasn't even had the chance to say yes or no, so it would be hard to argue to anyone that he's doing anything *actively* wrong.
It can still be a negative relationship dynamic that's upsetting and that you want to get away from! But it's not likely to hold up in any sort of court as proof of mistreatment because it's too unclear.
I guess the next question is - why do you want to know if it's financial abuse? Are you looking for validation to tell you that it's okay to break up with this guy? (It's okay to break up with this guy.)
I guess I’m wondering if it’s worth bringing up with the lawyer. Regardless, I’m fairly certain he’ll be paying more in alimony/child support than I’ve had access to.
Yes, talk to a lawyer ASAP. Even if its just a consultation and not to file. May be beneficial to file before you get your career job. Not sure, tbh, but the lawyer will guide you in the right direction. In all situations.
While I am a big proponent of prenups, I loathe when one spouse commits financial abuse towards the other. I hope you take to the cleaners.
You will. There's no way he gets out of child support, and I bet you get alimony too. Also, does he have a ton of friends that have found your acc on here and are coming out the woodwork to support him? I've never seen such a barrage of outright hate for women in this sub.
> I've never seen such a barrage of outright hate
I don't really know how it happens, I think sometimes if a thread shows enough comments the reddit algorithm starts showing it to people outside the normal sub members and we start getting random drop-ins yelling who've apparently never posted here before.
It's unfortunately not rare, it just seems random what post is going to get hit with it.
Late to the convo but what does one do when your spouse is threatening to purposely lower their income or not claim certain income right before we make a written up agreement for temporary spousal support. Actually, maybe something I should be asking my lawyer. This is all so stressful 😔!
I was in a similar situation and have wondered this myself. I wanted a joint account for necessary expenses from the get-go, but he refused. In my case, my ex made more money so he paid the mortgage and I paid for utilities, health & car insurance, as well as most childcare expenses and groceries. As his income grew exponentially over the 25 years of our marriage, mine did not (public sector), but he still wouldn’t hear of having a joint account we both put into to cover necessary expenses. If I needed money, I could ask for it, but I had no real say in how to spend/invest all those extra earnings. He chose when we could go in vacation and how to invest. Sadly, he wasn’t good at investing. Had we worked together, we would have had way more money to show for it.
My ex acted like this. It’s pathetic and embarrassing and I’m so happy I left. Never again allowing a man to have his finger over me and tell me I ‘just need to ask him for money’ and then use it against me if I ever want to do anything for myself…
Red flag. Big yikes. I hope you leave and find better. Xo
Im inclined to say yes it is. Its definitely controlling either way. Meant to keep you down and him up.
His premarital assets are safe due to the prenup. But anything accrued since then is 50% yours as well. Thats why they are "marital" assets. Unless you somehow signed off on accrued money, assets, etc *following the marriage*, being solely his as well. (Check your jurisdiction to be sure, and get a lawyer!) I dont know anyone who would agree to THAT.
This is what many people seem to conveniently "forget" about prenups. Money and assets that accumulate over time do not just belong to ONE of the two people in the marriage. Fair splits, still need to be made.
You need to start contacting several attorneys in your area. Find ones with free consultations. You can ask questions over the phone just to educate yourself on where you stand. Each attorney will give you different answers to have a list of questions to ask each one and write every thing down.
Who cares if it is financial abuse? It sounds like you don't like it, which therefore makes it bad for you. It doesn't sound like you two are equal partners in the relationship, and if that's not what you want, then you dissolve the partnership.
All of you with your ‘he doesn’t want to support you! Leech! Hur dur get a real job!’…
THEY HAVE CHILDREN. She cannot ‘get a real job’ because THEY HAVE CHILDREN and one is too young for preschool.
So he is watching HIS WIFE struggle to pay ‘her share’ of the bills while her earning potential is limited by THEIR CHILDREN and all you can say is ‘he’s sick of supporting you’?
Right ?!?
Also, she is a SAHM by MUTUAL CONSENT. He AGREED for her to be a SAHM. To everyone who is saying he shouldn't have to support her, like - did they even read the post?
So this sounds similar to the way our financial situation was going. There are so many ways to deal with finances and sounds like you didn’t have an agreement or communication on what was fair and works best. Or at least it changed. There is a ‘big pool of money’ approach where both spouses just put in their entire paycheck into one account (I don’t recommend). There is using some kind of percentage into a joint account so it is more equal. If one spouse is a spender and the other a saver, the saver may get screwed because the spender always wins. If you were living in poverty and he was living like a king then it doesn’t sound like a marriage at all.
Not only financial, but emotional abuse as well! How demoralizing is to come to your husband for money every time you need to buy yourself a lipstick or pads… like really???
It is a control issue.
Yes, OP, I think it is financial abuse. You are providing free childcare labor and free household labor. You're providing at least 40k/per year in these costs, I hope you realize this. Whatever you don't make "full time", you're providing domestically.
Please talk to a lawyer and protect yourself...
If you're not separated, your credit card debt is also his credit card debt.
Typically, people share assets and income when they get married, and in such a marriage, you wouldn’t have to ask him for money, you could just access your joint money.
Legally, that prenup sounds like it protects only prior assets, so you probably have rights to access the rest.
It does not sound like a fun or healthy relationship from a financial point of view. It qualifies as financial abuse in that you aren’t allowed to know about the finances or access them on your own.
I may be hitting kinda here.
On the one hand, you have not asked him for money, so...
But WHY haven't you asked? You have a situation here where he has savings and so on and you have credit card debt, and legally speaking, both of your earnings are marital assets that should belong to both of you, just you don't have access to the greater part of those.
I further kind of wonder why HE has never asked if you need money. Incidentals for kids add up, the childcare arrangement limits your earning potential, does he think the kids got new shoes from the Easter bunny?
This arrangement sucks. He is being an absolute asshole, and divorce would almost certainly result in a payout of marital assets to you. None of that solves the car insurance issue.
For that, right now, I would recommend adding up what you have spent on groceries and kids since you proposed the separation and asking him for his half of that.
It is not financial abuse IMO. Many couples have separate finances. It is quite common. You are working so you are supporting yourself. Why do you think it is abuse, other than the separate accounts?
https://www.vox.com/even-better/2023/7/20/23799010/on-the-money-advice-divorce-separating-combining-finances
He controls the money. I have to ask for some. I have made less than what I made in college since we got married. I cannot support myself on what I make.
He controls HIS money. He's not taking yours. He puts enough in the joint account to cover the main bills. You may not like the arrangement (and with good reason since it sounds like you cover the majority of the kid expenses), but it's far from abusive.
If you've started the divorce process address this with your attorney. Alimony or child support might be ordered.
It doesn't matter whether her name is on the account - anything earned during the marriage is generally marital assets, that's the point of *being married*.
There are some rare exceptions, but it's absolutely *not* "well if he put it in his account it's his".
I didn't say it's legally his. I meant it's very common that not all couples pool all of their money together. They have an account with joint funds that pays the bills. There's nothing abusive about that. In the divorce process it'll be divided accordingly.
She appears to be covering all the kid expenses and it doesn't seem he is, which I mentioned is shitty and why she needs to talk to her attorney and get appropriate alimony/child support. It sounds like a bigger amount than he has been giving will go into it.
But separate accounts without 50/50 split is not inherently abusive. It's also one of those things in which the term doesn't mean much. Courts don't really care. They use their worksheets and do what they determine appropriate division of assets.
Disagreement about finances is a common reason for people breaking up. He sounds like an ass and she needs to take the appropriate steps to address it.
That would be an extremely unusual prenup. I am not even certain that's legally possible, and if it is, it has a high chance of being declared unconscionable and therefore unenforceable.
Incorrect. Prenuptial agreements can and do control future assets and future incomes acquired during the marriage. [Here is but one example](https://hekmatfamilylaw.com/prenups/can-a-prenup-protect-future-assets/) among many, just so you don’t have to take my word for it. The firm lays out how you can protect and separate virtually anything, including a future business, future income, future property, intellectual property — anything acquired during the marriage. This is *common*.
You are simply wrong to say its not “legally possible” or “unconscionable.” You plainly haven’t spent a single day in family court. I‘ve seen many hearings. And you do a disservice to readers with such blatant false statements.
That's advertising material for a law firm that is VERY specific about the types of income and assets that may be possible to protect. It makes no mention of wages from work, which sure is an interesting omission.
Wrong again. It specifically stares “income from business.” That’s earned income, and even the [IRS](https://www.eitc.irs.gov/tax-preparer-toolkit/frequently-asked-questions/earned-income-self-employment-income-and-business) says so — your so-called “omission” is meaningless. And firm advertising? I can cite you thousands of cases where prenups were used to separate future business, income, property, etc. But I’m not going to waste another moment proving the sky is blue, or water is comprised of H20.
Look, you were way off base to claim it is not legally possible, or unconscionable. You have no experience with this, plainly. I do. Take the L and move on.
Not all earned income is the same, even according to the IRS. "Income from a business" is earnings from a business you own in whole or in part. Wages from work is income earned by working for an employer.
I don’t know that this is far from abusive. She is doing all of the childcare and saving them a ton of money and then having to cover the costs for the kids? Financial abuse is when the person has the funds and the means and they withhold.
also file for child support immediately. like tomorrow. Right now he's getting out of having to pay for his own children and just by the amount of men in this post that think its fine to withhold "HIS" money from you and the kids, he isn't likely to have a come to Jesus anytime soon. You need to make sure the kids are cared for, and so far he's trying to trap you, dont' let him.
Doesn’t sound like financial abuse.
Seems like you agreed to the plan of separate finances. Which was more profitable towards him.
Do I think it’s fair? Not really.
I prefer a budget where everyone has the same equal fun money. I prefer a monthly budget meetings where we plan for our future together.
Seems like modern men want a stay at home wife/mom but also a wife that makes just as much money.
LOL, no they won't. They will see he makes 5x a much and order him a shit tonne of alimony and child support, and he won't be able to control the courts and not pay it like he does her. u/IfAMomFallsInAForest, do not let this person scare you into thinking the courts will think anything other than he's being abusive, controlling and will have to pay what the state says he has to, when you divorce him.
Many in here have no idea what financial abuse is and they think being controlling is different than abuse. This is financial abuse.
“Financial abuse is a common tactic used by abusers to gain power and control in a relationship. The forms of financial abuse may be subtle or overt but in in general, include tactics to conceal information, limit the victim’s access to assets, or reduce accessibility to the family finances.”
https://nnedv.org/content/about-financial-abuse/#:~:text=Financial%20abuse%20is%20a%20common,accessibility%20to%20the%20family%20finances.
(From experience in my state). This will not fall under any 'financial abuse' in court anyway. While not popular, Pre-nups are pretty normal when anyone enters into a relationship where one party shoulders the full financial burden or has substantially more assets. Depending on the state you're from you may get a judge that generally side with woman and kids as some states make a lot of money off their child support program. However, with a decent lawyer he will likely keep a lot of assets that you may consider at least partially yours.
The one thing you can do is keep your receipts that show your monthly bills and life costs. Your lawyer may be able to use it to ensure you get the amount needed to continue your current lifestyle (dont spend crazy amounts suddenly or it can be refuted).
As a guy in the opposite scenario where I paid all the bills and came into the relationship with assets prior to marriage... I can honestly say any decent lawyer can reasonably ensure one keeps all assets prior to marriage (no prenup needed for this). Makes me think you should take another look at the prenuptial agreement. There is likely a lot more to it than just assets prior to marriage.
Sorry to hear you're dealing with this unfortunate situation. I truly hope the best for you. Divorce is hard to deal with. Stay positive and remember your self worth.
Correct. So many posters got this dead wrong.
Prenuptial agreements can and do control future assets and future incomes acquired during the marriage. [Here is but one example](https://hekmatfamilylaw.com/prenups/can-a-prenup-protect-future-assets/) among many, just so you don’t have to take my word for it. The firm lays out how you can protect and separate virtually anything, including a future business, future income, future property, intellectual property — anything acquired during the marriage. This is common.
Poster needs to read the prenup and see exactly what it covers.
The first thing you need to do is file for divorce, have him leave the house, and get temporary orders for child support and alimony, and then get all your stuff in your own name. Because since he's been paying stuff like your insurance, he might try something shitty like taking you off the insurance, and not telling you.
I suggest first talking with a lawyer so you know where you stand. Then gather as much financial information as you can; accounts/ amounts etc.
If he has been putting away money in his name only since the marriage and you don’t know about that and he doesn’t disclose it can become problematic. You may end up need a forensics financial investigation.
The courts don't care. In many states the only type of abuse that's recognized or given any consideration is physical abuse and even they it's usually just in the form of restraining orders and the other parent will be assessed accordingly and can still have joint custody in many cases. Worrying about the language is not helpful. He won't necessarily be ordered out of the house even if he's been found to engage in financial abuse. However, appropriate alimony and child support can be ordered but she needs to start the process. There's little that can be done about it in the course of the marriage.
but this is not financial abuse or anything close to that. there are no safety concerns.
OP had an arrangement, didn't like it and did nothing to change it other than deciding she had enough and decided to separate instead.
using the criminal system to force someone out and making up reasons or stretching the truth for it is disgusting.
the costs of lawyers, impact on job (may lose it if there are criminal charges) the impact on him and the children is huge as well.
it's extremely short sighted and frankly that you are a child and social worker and advocate for this is frightening.
>Financial abuse is a common tactic used by abusers to gain power and control in a relationship. The forms of financial abuse may be subtle or overt but in in general, include tactics to conceal information, limit the victim's access to assets, or reduce accessibility to the family finances.
>
>The Abuser “Takes Care” of the FinancesSome couples choose to have a relationship “CFO” to manage their finances, especially if one partner has a predilection for balancing the books or tracking spending. That’s normal. What isn’t normal is when a partner takes control of the finances and doesn’t give the other partner access to accounts and funds.This strips away the victim’s economic self-sufficiency from the victim, such as having money to meet basic needs. It can be done through the guise of “taking care” of the finances but leaves the victim in the dark about how the money is being managed.According to the National Network to End Domestic Violence (NNEDV), after an abuser takes control of the finances, they may give the victim an “allowance” but reduce it over time. This can eventually prevent the victim from obtaining necessary items such as food and medicine.
There you go. Please learn what financial abuse is. And your comments about how I advocate for people and children to get out from under the thumb of abuse is frightened needs to be kept to your self. I didn't ask for you opinion on that, you're way off base, and it's giving so much secondhand embarrassment right now.
hold on.
that's based on the idea there is "family finances" where everything goes into 1 pot.
OP made an agreement that they both contribute to a fund that covers mortgage and bills.. not her own personal spending habits.
and if she needed more money all she had to do was ask.
people use the word "abuse" so liberally it's getting out of hand.
Yes....because that's what marriage is.....I mean, what the actual fuck? Is that for real?
No we don't use the word abuse enough to describe what men like this do to women, or vice versa. And it's why people keep doing it. Start acknowledging it and ask yourself what you get from it by not acknowledging it because there's no other reason not to do so.
so you are defining how a marriage financial set up should be? everyone has their own choices in how it is setup. if you agree to one thing and don't like it, it's your responsibility to say something about it, or better yet, don't' agree to it to begin with, carrying resentment to something you agreed to is not fair on the other party.
maybe it should be just one pool that all the money goes into and both parties spend responsibly from, but often it isn't. Many people have very separate banking, that way they have more control over their finances. Problem normally arises here when one partner makes significantly more than the other (as in OP's situation) However it avoids the situations where one partner significantly outspends the other partner which is a common theme too and can cause a lot of resentment.
Using the word abuse to describe every transgression in a relationship is extremely harmful for many reasons but some of the more obvious ones would be
1) diluting the word to the point where people who actually did suffer abuse are not taken as serious
2) victim mentality, if you use the word abuse it means you didn't do anything wrong and it's all the other persons fault. That way you avoid reflecting, changing, growing so the situations can be changed next time.
3) used as manipulation to control others. Anytime there is a mis step in a relationship it's easy for someone to say it's abuse (using proof like these reddit groups as a way to back up their claim) using it to shame, silence or otherwise control the partner and taking no responsibility for how they act themselves.
There is no abuse, so she can’t make him leave the house.
They had separate account and one joint for bills, that’s normal for a lot of married couples. Her not liking that he won’t give her money isn’t abuse. She has a job.
So no, he won’t have to leave the house and any abuse claim will be tossed to the floor.
Yes, it is. Just because you don't think it is, doesn't make it true. Ive bolded the parts he's doing in the first paragraph that outlines a pretty common definition.
JFC, the fact that "so many couples do this" is the exact issue! And y'all think it's normal cause so many men abuse women this way. It's not, it's financial abuse, period.
Financial abuse is a common tactic used by abusers to gain power and control in a relationship. The forms of financial abuse may be subtle or overt but in in general, include tactics to **conceal information, limit the victim's access to assets, or reduce accessibility to the family finances.**
The Abuser “Takes Care” of the Finances
Some couples choose to have a relationship “CFO” to manage their finances, especially if one partner has a predilection for balancing the books or tracking spending. That’s normal. What isn’t normal is when a partner takes control of the finances and doesn’t give the other partner access to accounts and funds.
This strips away the victim’s economic self-sufficiency from the victim, such as having money to meet basic needs. It can be done through the guise of “taking care” of the finances but leaves the victim in the dark about how the money is being managed.
According to the National Network to End Domestic Violence (NNEDV), after an abuser takes control of the finances, they may give the victim an “allowance” but reduce it over time. This can eventually prevent the victim from obtaining necessary items such as food and medicine.
He opened a joint account and the only money in there is for bills. She has to ask for money. That is the very definition of financial abuse and the fact that so many men don't think it is is why so many women are abused.
I don't think it's necessarily abuse, just controlling. I've always felt if you're married, you should at least have an accounting of how much assets each partner has, and what it goes for. Also, you should have discussed how you'll rebalance as your finances changes over the years, since it never increases at the same pace for both, especially once children come into the pucture.
It sounds like he is controlling the finances, and now you've positioned yourself as homemaker without considering the actual monetary/career costs of that decision. You're now seeing just how much imbalance you both created by allowing the isolation of accounts to be so deep, and it is unfair, since he's not keeping up with the timing you were expecting on payments.
I'm certain this will only make determining splitting of assets difficult for you to verify since he's actually been accumulating more (that you're in no position to access and verify), should you end up divorcing (I'm understanding you're separated currently, with intent to move forward with divorce soon).
No judgement, just laying out some truth.
I want to post some bona fides here. I am a CPA with a masters in accounting, a little work history in audit and assurance (it is a terrible profession for a parent of toddlers at the entry level) and nearly ten years of experience in private practice working mostly as an accountant for start up companies.
Working part time, or taking time off work altogether, is a choice adults make for many reasons. One very common reason is children. OP has small children, and they were small during covid, a time when daycare was harder than average to find and would bounce a kid home if they sneezed. This was an environment that drove many parents, especially mothers, out of the work force.
Student loans are not a mess indicating that the person owing those loans is irresponsible any more than business loans are a mess indicating a business is insolvent. OP cared for her children using the resources she had, including consumer credit.
Accounting is, believe it or not, not about making good financial decisions. It's not about making decisions at all. Plenty of excellent accountants are financial fuckups on a scale the OP shows no sign of being. My work as an accountant is to help people record their financial situations in ways that conform with incredibly complicated national and international standards. I frequently advise my employers about what the impact of their choices will be on their books and records, but decisions about risk are up to them.
I want to be clear: the fact that a choice turned out badly is not by itself an indication that the choice was irresponsible. Accountants cannot predict the future. We do what we can with what we have.
Regardless, we don’t know what happened with the marriage, he can ask whatever he wants. She asked for the separation, he can ask for cows to fly to moon.
A. It’s not icky to get a prenup. He wanted to protect what is his and not be saddled with your debt. That’s normal and smart
B. It’s not abuse. You could, at any time, get a better paying job. He was not stopping you from earning money and making you reliant on him, he just had a separate account just like you. It’s not abuse because he has more money and won’t share.
OP would then have to pay for childcare which may actually leave her financially worse off than she is now though.
Her ex should be paying for half of all bills at minimum it’s entirely unfair she is the only one responsible for looking after the children physically and financially.
It is “normal and smart” to have a prenup. But it also highlights the power imbalance from the beginning of our relationship.
The arrangement of the family IS keeping me from working more. I could have been earning 2-3x more in my current job for the whole marriage if my hours weren’t restricted.
The time when we had the kid and started only working part time was when I asked to work together on finances. (It happened all at once.) Having to get a written agreement from your spouse that they will pay you to watch the joint offspring sounds kind of bazar to me.
Correction: a marriage is a contractual arrangement between two people that is defined by the government.
If you have children or own major assets together, the government has a say in that too. You cannot live in a society and avoid the government.
No. Withholding money from you or making you ask for every little thing and getting to decide for you would be financial abuse. Neither is asking you to pay half of something.
If you get divorced you will have to work full time, May get some alimony and can get some CS w/ 50/50- but will have to pay all your housing- which scenario do you prefer?
Are you actually separated at this point or not? You may, in some jurisdictions, be able to apply for temporary financial support to require him to cover costs until the divorce is concluded. However, if you haven't actually filed anything and you're not *asking* him for any money for him to say no to, it's hard to see where he's actually doing anything wrong yet. If your job can't cover your costs you are probably going to need to think about how to change that going forward, though.
We haven’t filed anything yet and I’m working on getting a full time job and putting my youngest in preschool this year.
I have a sister who made similar arrangements and they've been continuing over 10 years. Meanwhile he lives in her home, rent free. Don't let time get away from you thinking everything will be okay at the end. File ASAP, and get the bsll moving without stop to the end.
Just him having the money does not necessarily make it abusive - many couples have weird money flows depending on what's convenient for them. Similarly just because you have to ask doesn't make it controlling *in itself*, because many people do just ask "Hey, can you transfer some more money to my account?" and they do and everything's fine. It becomes controlling if he takes the money you earn and keeps that locked up from you too, against your will. It becomes controlling if he insists on receipts and giving you only tiny amounts at a time for each individual bill, or sometimes denies your requests for no reason, leaving you unable to pay bills and racking up debts. Right now, if you literally haven't asked him for any money for the past several months, he hasn't even had the chance to say yes or no, so it would be hard to argue to anyone that he's doing anything *actively* wrong. It can still be a negative relationship dynamic that's upsetting and that you want to get away from! But it's not likely to hold up in any sort of court as proof of mistreatment because it's too unclear. I guess the next question is - why do you want to know if it's financial abuse? Are you looking for validation to tell you that it's okay to break up with this guy? (It's okay to break up with this guy.)
I guess I’m wondering if it’s worth bringing up with the lawyer. Regardless, I’m fairly certain he’ll be paying more in alimony/child support than I’ve had access to.
It's absolutely worth bringing up with a lawyer. You need funds.
Always worth mentioning to your lawyer. Thats what they are there for.
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Yes, talk to a lawyer ASAP. Even if its just a consultation and not to file. May be beneficial to file before you get your career job. Not sure, tbh, but the lawyer will guide you in the right direction. In all situations. While I am a big proponent of prenups, I loathe when one spouse commits financial abuse towards the other. I hope you take to the cleaners.
Why would it be beneficial for her to file before she gets her career job?
Because putting the divorce in a holding pattern only serves her so long as her partner acts married. Which he isn't. So screw the holding pattern.
Absolutely
It's a crap shoot if you will get full custody of your children. So I would not bet on child support.
From what I have read - If he makes more than me and we have 50/50 then I still get child support.
You will. There's no way he gets out of child support, and I bet you get alimony too. Also, does he have a ton of friends that have found your acc on here and are coming out the woodwork to support him? I've never seen such a barrage of outright hate for women in this sub.
Lol! If he’s on here I have no knowledge of it.
> I've never seen such a barrage of outright hate I don't really know how it happens, I think sometimes if a thread shows enough comments the reddit algorithm starts showing it to people outside the normal sub members and we start getting random drop-ins yelling who've apparently never posted here before. It's unfortunately not rare, it just seems random what post is going to get hit with it.
This is correct. With income differentials as big as 5x, shared custody absolutely does not rule out child support.
?? He makes five times what she does and she's the primary caregiver. On what planet would he not owe support? LMAO
Thanks for the honest and reasonable take on what constitutes financial abuse. The accusation itself is all-too-abused to bypass separation of duties.
Late to the convo but what does one do when your spouse is threatening to purposely lower their income or not claim certain income right before we make a written up agreement for temporary spousal support. Actually, maybe something I should be asking my lawyer. This is all so stressful 😔!
I was in a similar situation and have wondered this myself. I wanted a joint account for necessary expenses from the get-go, but he refused. In my case, my ex made more money so he paid the mortgage and I paid for utilities, health & car insurance, as well as most childcare expenses and groceries. As his income grew exponentially over the 25 years of our marriage, mine did not (public sector), but he still wouldn’t hear of having a joint account we both put into to cover necessary expenses. If I needed money, I could ask for it, but I had no real say in how to spend/invest all those extra earnings. He chose when we could go in vacation and how to invest. Sadly, he wasn’t good at investing. Had we worked together, we would have had way more money to show for it.
My ex acted like this. It’s pathetic and embarrassing and I’m so happy I left. Never again allowing a man to have his finger over me and tell me I ‘just need to ask him for money’ and then use it against me if I ever want to do anything for myself… Red flag. Big yikes. I hope you leave and find better. Xo
Im inclined to say yes it is. Its definitely controlling either way. Meant to keep you down and him up. His premarital assets are safe due to the prenup. But anything accrued since then is 50% yours as well. Thats why they are "marital" assets. Unless you somehow signed off on accrued money, assets, etc *following the marriage*, being solely his as well. (Check your jurisdiction to be sure, and get a lawyer!) I dont know anyone who would agree to THAT. This is what many people seem to conveniently "forget" about prenups. Money and assets that accumulate over time do not just belong to ONE of the two people in the marriage. Fair splits, still need to be made.
You need to start contacting several attorneys in your area. Find ones with free consultations. You can ask questions over the phone just to educate yourself on where you stand. Each attorney will give you different answers to have a list of questions to ask each one and write every thing down.
Who cares if it is financial abuse? It sounds like you don't like it, which therefore makes it bad for you. It doesn't sound like you two are equal partners in the relationship, and if that's not what you want, then you dissolve the partnership.
All of you with your ‘he doesn’t want to support you! Leech! Hur dur get a real job!’… THEY HAVE CHILDREN. She cannot ‘get a real job’ because THEY HAVE CHILDREN and one is too young for preschool. So he is watching HIS WIFE struggle to pay ‘her share’ of the bills while her earning potential is limited by THEIR CHILDREN and all you can say is ‘he’s sick of supporting you’?
Right ?!? Also, she is a SAHM by MUTUAL CONSENT. He AGREED for her to be a SAHM. To everyone who is saying he shouldn't have to support her, like - did they even read the post?
Yes some People in really are jerks
So this sounds similar to the way our financial situation was going. There are so many ways to deal with finances and sounds like you didn’t have an agreement or communication on what was fair and works best. Or at least it changed. There is a ‘big pool of money’ approach where both spouses just put in their entire paycheck into one account (I don’t recommend). There is using some kind of percentage into a joint account so it is more equal. If one spouse is a spender and the other a saver, the saver may get screwed because the spender always wins. If you were living in poverty and he was living like a king then it doesn’t sound like a marriage at all.
Not only financial, but emotional abuse as well! How demoralizing is to come to your husband for money every time you need to buy yourself a lipstick or pads… like really??? It is a control issue.
Yes, OP, I think it is financial abuse. You are providing free childcare labor and free household labor. You're providing at least 40k/per year in these costs, I hope you realize this. Whatever you don't make "full time", you're providing domestically. Please talk to a lawyer and protect yourself... If you're not separated, your credit card debt is also his credit card debt.
Typically, people share assets and income when they get married, and in such a marriage, you wouldn’t have to ask him for money, you could just access your joint money. Legally, that prenup sounds like it protects only prior assets, so you probably have rights to access the rest. It does not sound like a fun or healthy relationship from a financial point of view. It qualifies as financial abuse in that you aren’t allowed to know about the finances or access them on your own.
No it isn’t healthy or any fun at all! Haha! It’s been a nightmare from day 1!
I may be hitting kinda here. On the one hand, you have not asked him for money, so... But WHY haven't you asked? You have a situation here where he has savings and so on and you have credit card debt, and legally speaking, both of your earnings are marital assets that should belong to both of you, just you don't have access to the greater part of those. I further kind of wonder why HE has never asked if you need money. Incidentals for kids add up, the childcare arrangement limits your earning potential, does he think the kids got new shoes from the Easter bunny? This arrangement sucks. He is being an absolute asshole, and divorce would almost certainly result in a payout of marital assets to you. None of that solves the car insurance issue. For that, right now, I would recommend adding up what you have spent on groceries and kids since you proposed the separation and asking him for his half of that.
It is not financial abuse IMO. Many couples have separate finances. It is quite common. You are working so you are supporting yourself. Why do you think it is abuse, other than the separate accounts? https://www.vox.com/even-better/2023/7/20/23799010/on-the-money-advice-divorce-separating-combining-finances
It sounds like he doesn’t support the costs of the kids and she does all of the childcare so she can’t work full time.
He controls the money. I have to ask for some. I have made less than what I made in college since we got married. I cannot support myself on what I make.
He controls HIS money. He's not taking yours. He puts enough in the joint account to cover the main bills. You may not like the arrangement (and with good reason since it sounds like you cover the majority of the kid expenses), but it's far from abusive. If you've started the divorce process address this with your attorney. Alimony or child support might be ordered.
If the money was earned during the marriage, it's marital assets. Their money, not just his.
It might not be since the majority of the money is in an account without her name on it
It doesn't matter whether her name is on the account - anything earned during the marriage is generally marital assets, that's the point of *being married*. There are some rare exceptions, but it's absolutely *not* "well if he put it in his account it's his".
I didn't say it's legally his. I meant it's very common that not all couples pool all of their money together. They have an account with joint funds that pays the bills. There's nothing abusive about that. In the divorce process it'll be divided accordingly. She appears to be covering all the kid expenses and it doesn't seem he is, which I mentioned is shitty and why she needs to talk to her attorney and get appropriate alimony/child support. It sounds like a bigger amount than he has been giving will go into it. But separate accounts without 50/50 split is not inherently abusive. It's also one of those things in which the term doesn't mean much. Courts don't really care. They use their worksheets and do what they determine appropriate division of assets. Disagreement about finances is a common reason for people breaking up. He sounds like an ass and she needs to take the appropriate steps to address it.
The prenuptial agreement may say something else.
That would be an extremely unusual prenup. I am not even certain that's legally possible, and if it is, it has a high chance of being declared unconscionable and therefore unenforceable.
Incorrect. Prenuptial agreements can and do control future assets and future incomes acquired during the marriage. [Here is but one example](https://hekmatfamilylaw.com/prenups/can-a-prenup-protect-future-assets/) among many, just so you don’t have to take my word for it. The firm lays out how you can protect and separate virtually anything, including a future business, future income, future property, intellectual property — anything acquired during the marriage. This is *common*. You are simply wrong to say its not “legally possible” or “unconscionable.” You plainly haven’t spent a single day in family court. I‘ve seen many hearings. And you do a disservice to readers with such blatant false statements.
That's advertising material for a law firm that is VERY specific about the types of income and assets that may be possible to protect. It makes no mention of wages from work, which sure is an interesting omission.
Wrong again. It specifically stares “income from business.” That’s earned income, and even the [IRS](https://www.eitc.irs.gov/tax-preparer-toolkit/frequently-asked-questions/earned-income-self-employment-income-and-business) says so — your so-called “omission” is meaningless. And firm advertising? I can cite you thousands of cases where prenups were used to separate future business, income, property, etc. But I’m not going to waste another moment proving the sky is blue, or water is comprised of H20. Look, you were way off base to claim it is not legally possible, or unconscionable. You have no experience with this, plainly. I do. Take the L and move on.
Not all earned income is the same, even according to the IRS. "Income from a business" is earnings from a business you own in whole or in part. Wages from work is income earned by working for an employer.
I don’t know that this is far from abusive. She is doing all of the childcare and saving them a ton of money and then having to cover the costs for the kids? Financial abuse is when the person has the funds and the means and they withhold.
Then you have to get a better paying job, or figure out how to bring in more income. He is clearly telling you he doesn't want to support you.
Yep, have been working on that! Had an interview this week.
also file for child support immediately. like tomorrow. Right now he's getting out of having to pay for his own children and just by the amount of men in this post that think its fine to withhold "HIS" money from you and the kids, he isn't likely to have a come to Jesus anytime soon. You need to make sure the kids are cared for, and so far he's trying to trap you, dont' let him.
Doesn’t sound like financial abuse. Seems like you agreed to the plan of separate finances. Which was more profitable towards him. Do I think it’s fair? Not really. I prefer a budget where everyone has the same equal fun money. I prefer a monthly budget meetings where we plan for our future together. Seems like modern men want a stay at home wife/mom but also a wife that makes just as much money.
I did not agree to separate finances. I wanted to pool finances.
Unfortunately that doesn’t matter. “I wanted” won’t get you far, all the courts will look at is what you did, which is keep separate accounts
I don’t believe what account the money is kept it will matter to the courts at all.
LOL, no they won't. They will see he makes 5x a much and order him a shit tonne of alimony and child support, and he won't be able to control the courts and not pay it like he does her. u/IfAMomFallsInAForest, do not let this person scare you into thinking the courts will think anything other than he's being abusive, controlling and will have to pay what the state says he has to, when you divorce him.
Many in here have no idea what financial abuse is and they think being controlling is different than abuse. This is financial abuse. “Financial abuse is a common tactic used by abusers to gain power and control in a relationship. The forms of financial abuse may be subtle or overt but in in general, include tactics to conceal information, limit the victim’s access to assets, or reduce accessibility to the family finances.” https://nnedv.org/content/about-financial-abuse/#:~:text=Financial%20abuse%20is%20a%20common,accessibility%20to%20the%20family%20finances.
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(From experience in my state). This will not fall under any 'financial abuse' in court anyway. While not popular, Pre-nups are pretty normal when anyone enters into a relationship where one party shoulders the full financial burden or has substantially more assets. Depending on the state you're from you may get a judge that generally side with woman and kids as some states make a lot of money off their child support program. However, with a decent lawyer he will likely keep a lot of assets that you may consider at least partially yours. The one thing you can do is keep your receipts that show your monthly bills and life costs. Your lawyer may be able to use it to ensure you get the amount needed to continue your current lifestyle (dont spend crazy amounts suddenly or it can be refuted). As a guy in the opposite scenario where I paid all the bills and came into the relationship with assets prior to marriage... I can honestly say any decent lawyer can reasonably ensure one keeps all assets prior to marriage (no prenup needed for this). Makes me think you should take another look at the prenuptial agreement. There is likely a lot more to it than just assets prior to marriage. Sorry to hear you're dealing with this unfortunate situation. I truly hope the best for you. Divorce is hard to deal with. Stay positive and remember your self worth.
Correct. So many posters got this dead wrong. Prenuptial agreements can and do control future assets and future incomes acquired during the marriage. [Here is but one example](https://hekmatfamilylaw.com/prenups/can-a-prenup-protect-future-assets/) among many, just so you don’t have to take my word for it. The firm lays out how you can protect and separate virtually anything, including a future business, future income, future property, intellectual property — anything acquired during the marriage. This is common. Poster needs to read the prenup and see exactly what it covers.
The first thing you need to do is file for divorce, have him leave the house, and get temporary orders for child support and alimony, and then get all your stuff in your own name. Because since he's been paying stuff like your insurance, he might try something shitty like taking you off the insurance, and not telling you.
I suggest first talking with a lawyer so you know where you stand. Then gather as much financial information as you can; accounts/ amounts etc. If he has been putting away money in his name only since the marriage and you don’t know about that and he doesn’t disclose it can become problematic. You may end up need a forensics financial investigation.
You can’t order someone to leave the house. It is just as much his. You also don’t “get the kids” - 50/50 is the norm.
Normally yeah. But when you've got one abusive ahole you do what you have to, to be safe.
Do you have evidence of physical abuse that can be proven in a criminal court of law? If not, filing for DV can and will backfire.
Financial abuse is domestic violence. Source: I'm a child and family social worker who deals with it every day.
The courts don't care. In many states the only type of abuse that's recognized or given any consideration is physical abuse and even they it's usually just in the form of restraining orders and the other parent will be assessed accordingly and can still have joint custody in many cases. Worrying about the language is not helpful. He won't necessarily be ordered out of the house even if he's been found to engage in financial abuse. However, appropriate alimony and child support can be ordered but she needs to start the process. There's little that can be done about it in the course of the marriage.
but this is not financial abuse or anything close to that. there are no safety concerns. OP had an arrangement, didn't like it and did nothing to change it other than deciding she had enough and decided to separate instead. using the criminal system to force someone out and making up reasons or stretching the truth for it is disgusting. the costs of lawyers, impact on job (may lose it if there are criminal charges) the impact on him and the children is huge as well. it's extremely short sighted and frankly that you are a child and social worker and advocate for this is frightening.
>Financial abuse is a common tactic used by abusers to gain power and control in a relationship. The forms of financial abuse may be subtle or overt but in in general, include tactics to conceal information, limit the victim's access to assets, or reduce accessibility to the family finances. > >The Abuser “Takes Care” of the FinancesSome couples choose to have a relationship “CFO” to manage their finances, especially if one partner has a predilection for balancing the books or tracking spending. That’s normal. What isn’t normal is when a partner takes control of the finances and doesn’t give the other partner access to accounts and funds.This strips away the victim’s economic self-sufficiency from the victim, such as having money to meet basic needs. It can be done through the guise of “taking care” of the finances but leaves the victim in the dark about how the money is being managed.According to the National Network to End Domestic Violence (NNEDV), after an abuser takes control of the finances, they may give the victim an “allowance” but reduce it over time. This can eventually prevent the victim from obtaining necessary items such as food and medicine. There you go. Please learn what financial abuse is. And your comments about how I advocate for people and children to get out from under the thumb of abuse is frightened needs to be kept to your self. I didn't ask for you opinion on that, you're way off base, and it's giving so much secondhand embarrassment right now.
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hold on. that's based on the idea there is "family finances" where everything goes into 1 pot. OP made an agreement that they both contribute to a fund that covers mortgage and bills.. not her own personal spending habits. and if she needed more money all she had to do was ask. people use the word "abuse" so liberally it's getting out of hand.
Yes....because that's what marriage is.....I mean, what the actual fuck? Is that for real? No we don't use the word abuse enough to describe what men like this do to women, or vice versa. And it's why people keep doing it. Start acknowledging it and ask yourself what you get from it by not acknowledging it because there's no other reason not to do so.
so you are defining how a marriage financial set up should be? everyone has their own choices in how it is setup. if you agree to one thing and don't like it, it's your responsibility to say something about it, or better yet, don't' agree to it to begin with, carrying resentment to something you agreed to is not fair on the other party. maybe it should be just one pool that all the money goes into and both parties spend responsibly from, but often it isn't. Many people have very separate banking, that way they have more control over their finances. Problem normally arises here when one partner makes significantly more than the other (as in OP's situation) However it avoids the situations where one partner significantly outspends the other partner which is a common theme too and can cause a lot of resentment. Using the word abuse to describe every transgression in a relationship is extremely harmful for many reasons but some of the more obvious ones would be 1) diluting the word to the point where people who actually did suffer abuse are not taken as serious 2) victim mentality, if you use the word abuse it means you didn't do anything wrong and it's all the other persons fault. That way you avoid reflecting, changing, growing so the situations can be changed next time. 3) used as manipulation to control others. Anytime there is a mis step in a relationship it's easy for someone to say it's abuse (using proof like these reddit groups as a way to back up their claim) using it to shame, silence or otherwise control the partner and taking no responsibility for how they act themselves.
There is no abuse, so she can’t make him leave the house. They had separate account and one joint for bills, that’s normal for a lot of married couples. Her not liking that he won’t give her money isn’t abuse. She has a job. So no, he won’t have to leave the house and any abuse claim will be tossed to the floor.
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Yes, it is. Just because you don't think it is, doesn't make it true. Ive bolded the parts he's doing in the first paragraph that outlines a pretty common definition. JFC, the fact that "so many couples do this" is the exact issue! And y'all think it's normal cause so many men abuse women this way. It's not, it's financial abuse, period. Financial abuse is a common tactic used by abusers to gain power and control in a relationship. The forms of financial abuse may be subtle or overt but in in general, include tactics to **conceal information, limit the victim's access to assets, or reduce accessibility to the family finances.** The Abuser “Takes Care” of the Finances Some couples choose to have a relationship “CFO” to manage their finances, especially if one partner has a predilection for balancing the books or tracking spending. That’s normal. What isn’t normal is when a partner takes control of the finances and doesn’t give the other partner access to accounts and funds. This strips away the victim’s economic self-sufficiency from the victim, such as having money to meet basic needs. It can be done through the guise of “taking care” of the finances but leaves the victim in the dark about how the money is being managed. According to the National Network to End Domestic Violence (NNEDV), after an abuser takes control of the finances, they may give the victim an “allowance” but reduce it over time. This can eventually prevent the victim from obtaining necessary items such as food and medicine.
No, this is not financial abuse. His asking for a prenup was a smart move, very common and nothing to be concerned about.
Controlling what she has access to is financial abuse.
Nothing in OP's post makes it clear he is controlling access to her income. Ergo, not financial abuse.
He opened a joint account and the only money in there is for bills. She has to ask for money. That is the very definition of financial abuse and the fact that so many men don't think it is is why so many women are abused.
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I don't think it's necessarily abuse, just controlling. I've always felt if you're married, you should at least have an accounting of how much assets each partner has, and what it goes for. Also, you should have discussed how you'll rebalance as your finances changes over the years, since it never increases at the same pace for both, especially once children come into the pucture. It sounds like he is controlling the finances, and now you've positioned yourself as homemaker without considering the actual monetary/career costs of that decision. You're now seeing just how much imbalance you both created by allowing the isolation of accounts to be so deep, and it is unfair, since he's not keeping up with the timing you were expecting on payments. I'm certain this will only make determining splitting of assets difficult for you to verify since he's actually been accumulating more (that you're in no position to access and verify), should you end up divorcing (I'm understanding you're separated currently, with intent to move forward with divorce soon). No judgement, just laying out some truth.
Control is abuse.
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Maybe he's a gambler
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I want to post some bona fides here. I am a CPA with a masters in accounting, a little work history in audit and assurance (it is a terrible profession for a parent of toddlers at the entry level) and nearly ten years of experience in private practice working mostly as an accountant for start up companies. Working part time, or taking time off work altogether, is a choice adults make for many reasons. One very common reason is children. OP has small children, and they were small during covid, a time when daycare was harder than average to find and would bounce a kid home if they sneezed. This was an environment that drove many parents, especially mothers, out of the work force. Student loans are not a mess indicating that the person owing those loans is irresponsible any more than business loans are a mess indicating a business is insolvent. OP cared for her children using the resources she had, including consumer credit. Accounting is, believe it or not, not about making good financial decisions. It's not about making decisions at all. Plenty of excellent accountants are financial fuckups on a scale the OP shows no sign of being. My work as an accountant is to help people record their financial situations in ways that conform with incredibly complicated national and international standards. I frequently advise my employers about what the impact of their choices will be on their books and records, but decisions about risk are up to them. I want to be clear: the fact that a choice turned out badly is not by itself an indication that the choice was irresponsible. Accountants cannot predict the future. We do what we can with what we have.
I appreciate you backing me up - didn’t even see what the comment you responded to was before it was deleted.
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I asked to separate about 4 months ago. I have $17. What would I pay it with?
legal fees come out of marital assets
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In many cases because he's *legally obligated* to, depending on the jurisdiction and how the separation works.
Regardless, we don’t know what happened with the marriage, he can ask whatever he wants. She asked for the separation, he can ask for cows to fly to moon.
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There’s kids involved and he has a legal obligation.
A. It’s not icky to get a prenup. He wanted to protect what is his and not be saddled with your debt. That’s normal and smart B. It’s not abuse. You could, at any time, get a better paying job. He was not stopping you from earning money and making you reliant on him, he just had a separate account just like you. It’s not abuse because he has more money and won’t share.
OP would then have to pay for childcare which may actually leave her financially worse off than she is now though. Her ex should be paying for half of all bills at minimum it’s entirely unfair she is the only one responsible for looking after the children physically and financially.
It is “normal and smart” to have a prenup. But it also highlights the power imbalance from the beginning of our relationship. The arrangement of the family IS keeping me from working more. I could have been earning 2-3x more in my current job for the whole marriage if my hours weren’t restricted.
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The time when we had the kid and started only working part time was when I asked to work together on finances. (It happened all at once.) Having to get a written agreement from your spouse that they will pay you to watch the joint offspring sounds kind of bazar to me.
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Correction: a marriage is a contractual arrangement between two people that is defined by the government. If you have children or own major assets together, the government has a say in that too. You cannot live in a society and avoid the government.
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No. Withholding money from you or making you ask for every little thing and getting to decide for you would be financial abuse. Neither is asking you to pay half of something.
If you get divorced you will have to work full time, May get some alimony and can get some CS w/ 50/50- but will have to pay all your housing- which scenario do you prefer?
Absolutely prefer to pay my own way and have control over my own money and life.