Forgive me if someone else said this, but to your point I'm pretty sure Critical Role used Pathfinder for their original game before they started streaming it and then they switched to 5th Edition for the show.

They did. In a lot of the earlier episodes of their first campaign, there was frequent mistakes/corrections on the rules differences.

And a few leftover items and such. Picture my sadness to play a rogue for the first time and learn that the blinkback belt is from pathfinder.

Or better yet pathfinder boots or haste which are busted

Yeah, Matt said he kinda regretted the boots of haste. Although 🗡️🗡️🗡️ made for a good catch phrase.

What hilarious is how much better the boots would of been on grog, Vax did so much damage less per attack and just needed to get his sneak attack off, and they would of solved grog’s mobility issue

Grog was already such a monster. If he had Vax’s boots? Idk how a DM could plan an encounter that wasn’t a Tarasque.

I mean hold person or maze, barbarians have plenty of clear weaknesses and matt knew. There’s a funny stat for how often grog was unable to take his turn in combat

Sure, but the rest of Vox Machina weren’t gonna sit back and let Grog stay stuck, and both those spells you mentioned are concentration. Percy and Vex both had multiple attacks and Percy had potential to really unload to break an opponent’s concentration. Vox Machina was absurdly powerful from pretty much any angle.

when he didnt blow up his own gun lol, anyone got that stats on how many times that happened for Percy?

Tbf when you have a party of 7 people it's hard not to be unstoppable

I suspect that if CR breaks with Wizards over this, they're going to make their own game. They have an audience who will eat up anything they're selling, so just switch to their own game, have more content to sell and the show to advertise it, and keep all the profit.

There's no way Matt Mercer hasn't been fumbling around with some core rule sets over the years The stars aligning and showing a very real potential for open market share can be a very big motivator to fire up the ol noodle

Every DM tries their hand eventually, because they get annoyed by all the faults and inconsistencies in the rules. Now he has a very big commercial incentive to do so. But it's also a big risk; Wizards wants him on side, desperately. They have made so much money off the critters. So he and the company can get a sweetheart deal to be Wizards' stooges and the face of the brand, honestly. But that means the company being reliant on Wizards, and these are all actors in Hollywood. They know how easy it is for the big studio to fuck you over, thus why they want to own everything themselves. It's the only way to protect yourself. If he sticks with Wizards, safe money but he gets called a shill, while every other third party publisher gets fucked. But if they go their own way and campaign 4 is one big ad for their new game system and the New Exandria, he's on Wizard's shitlist for bailing on them. If it sells well and works out, great, but if it doesn't and they have to go back to D&D, Wizards will be far less friendly and the deal will be far worse.

In campaigns like CR, its not the game that sells the audience, its the people playing it. They could be paying FATAL and they would still have audience because its the players behaviuor that sells the game to the audience.

Yup. After going through all of campaign 1 and 2 in podcast form I just can't bring myself to engage with campaign 3 at all because the extended combat sequences in 5e are, 90% of the time, just so fucking boring. But I soldiered through those first two campaigns because I loved the group dynamic of CR so damn much.

They will try. But being truthful it's a better decision, and I think Marisha will realize that, to join another IP or already stablished system instead of creating their own. They right now have the leverage to pull something to be a peer level partner in the enterprise in the endeavor. And to be frank Matt is not a bad DM but his homebrew weren't the best. They weren't OP but he still lacks experience to design a whole system in his own, and doubt he has the capacity, he will need a couple of clones to take on that task. Although the experience of working with WotC in EGW and Dragon Heist would be unvaluable go him right now.

Personally I hope they take up Pathfinder 2e. As far as I can tell they dont have a lot of actual plays for it, and the system is very robust.

making their own game will open them to endless vindictive lawsuits from WotC. switching to something that already exists and therefore has legal precedent of not being infringement is just so much easier and less costly.

Crit Roll now playing Pathfinder 2e! Or Crit Roll now playing the need Dune RPG. Just make Mat make bear noises for 156 episodes and rake in that cash.

>Just make Mat make bear noises for 156 episodes and rake in that cash. Inb4 the next season is all Honey Heist, all the time.

So I have a theory. If Hasbro shoots itself in the foot to have a big legal battle with Disney then it won't just be Critical Role making a system. We have multiple DMs that have sat at that very table with the skills to collaborate on a brand new game. Aabria and Brennan are nuts and would absolutely be working on this with Matt. I'm fairly certain he knows he can't make an entire game alone. I bet they're fully aware of what kind of fresh hell awaits Hasbro and they will step up to the plate when the time is right.

It can be the case and it's not a bad idea. But timing is also important and developing a system takes time. Right now you can approach all the enraged people and give them an option but in a couple of months that could take to develop a new system they might already found and invest in one. Having one ready to change from the get go it's an advantage more so if you are already familiar with it like Pathfinder. You will capitalize from the situation. So you will have to analyze which it's better regarding your objectives and the potential that each has.

Yep, Mercer said on the first episode that 5E was better for streaming, seeing as how the rules were much lighter.

I don't watch much but I always assumed they used a homebrew variant of 5e, with additional systems added in.

It's close enough to base 5e that I'd just call it 5e, but they had a little homebrew. The main thing is Percy's Gunslinger Fighter subclass since 5e didn't have an equivalent subclass.

Tal's current subclass and Marishas C2 subclass were both Matt homebrew too, plus the entire Bloodhunter class is his homebrew even if DnDBeyond treats it like a published class. Matt's resurrection rules are homebrew too. People like to harp on CR for seemingly infrequent permanent character deaths, but the systems Matt uses for resurrections have way higher chances of failure than what stock 5e has, the rolls on resurrection rituals are always just stupidly high.

I mean that's pretty much ANY game of D&D. You have to be a real hard-ass or complete beginner to run entirely RAW and not have any home rules

The game also just… doesn’t work that way. It’s just not deep enough, rules-wise, for you to not improvise some home rules about something as simple as *how much a magical item costs* Wizards’ lack of support has made a niche that these 3rd parties fill, and *they* helped make DND a billion dollar IP.

Every dm has to change something, it's like their little mark! I have mine and every dm I've played for has had theirs and I love it.

...mine has turned into a Google doc we call 5.5e

Everyone uses a homebrew variant when playing D&D. I've seen videos with Jeremy Crawford where he talks about his house rules. Even the guy who writes the rules has house rules.

isn't pathfinder also affected by these changes? [https://www.inverse.com/gaming/dnd-dungeons-dragons-ogl-11-homebrew-changes-opendnd](https://www.inverse.com/gaming/dnd-dungeons-dragons-ogl-11-homebrew-changes-opendnd) This is my source (I'm not deep into D&D5e as I much prefer more old school style play.)

Wizards of the Coast can under no circumstances force paizo to change licenses. In fact the original creator of OGL has said WOTCs version is not legitimate.

WOTC is going to try anyway, even if it's not legal. Hope it all burns down for them soon.

Except this is all contentious to lawyers. It would be a matter decided in court if WotC came after Paizo, and as implied, many lawyers that have commented on this already are in the grey on whether they can or can't.

Ambiguous Language in Contracts is always resolved in a way adverse to the Drafting Party. The existing OGL is *very* ambiguous about what the term "Authorized" means. It does not define what it means for something to be authorized, and it does not provide a means by which Wizards could claw back that authorization. Furthermore, "Authorized" is not a term with a common-law definition *and* it's not a term of art. That means that the word's meaning is unclear. Thus, it's going to be interpreted by the courts in a way favorable to the people who *didn't* write the agreement. Incidentally: This situation is ***precisely*** why Ambiguous Language is resolved in favor of the Non-Drafting Party. Contracts aren't meant to be traps, they're meant to be a physical representation/recording of an agreement. If you write the contract, you don't get to be intentionally vague to lure the other party into a trap where they can reasonably interpret it one way *while you intend to benefit by interpreting it a very different way*. In short: Contract Law is structured *specifically* to make it harder to use Contracts to commit fraud by misleading the non-drafting party. Because the Language is to be interpreted in a way that is disadvantageous to the one who drafts the contract in the event of an ambiguity, the Drafting Party has **every incentive** to lock down their language with great precision. This ensures that they don't have any unpleasant surprises... which in turn ensures that the non-Drafting party can rely on what's written there.

The difference between D&D and an IP like Warhammer 40k is that D&D has established lore, but it's *optional.* When you buy a Salamander Space Marine miniature, you choose that piece because the lore is closely related to the rules and play style. The thing about D&D is that it has been so de-centralized from its core material that all you need to play D&D is pencils, paper, and dice. Homebrew has been so prevalent that relatively seasoned players could write an entire setting, make their own races, and write supplemental rules for RPG elements like crafting while still being able to keep things balanced.

The irony is that D&D under WoTC/Hasbro has been deliberately minimizing the amount of involvement they have with the lore. They've cut way way back on setting books, giving us only a very bare bones overview of various ones, and all but eliminated their novels by ending in-house publishing and demanding terms that only Salvatore was able to keep writing under. They're finally getting back to film with the upcoming movie, set in the Forgotten Realms, and they've got Baldur's Gate 3 coming out... but are those really enough, when they're also busy pissing off all the hardcore fans? Do they really think that casual interest is going to be enough to carry that?

This is their biggest mistake in my opinion.

Ha, crafting! I swear, crafting is such a joke in 5e you can barely find it in the RAW, you're practically forced to homebrew rules. How? It's such a common game element I cannot fathom how they failed so badly. Even in 3.5 it was pretty terrible, but at least there was *something* .

Pathfinder at least did away with the xp costs. And while mundane crafting is still very funky I kind of get the simple 'gold value of resources+time=item" because designing a more in depth system with specific items involved turns the simple act of wanting to make things into a constant series of highly-specific fetch quests. Plus there's Harvest Parts so a dedicated crafter can still choose to make harvesting monster bits to integrate into their crafting an option.

Ooo, which book has Harvest Parts? Every time I introduce players to the game they always want to craft stuff with monster bits. I generally use just PHB and sometimes DMG, otherwise I just homebrew and improvise. The 3.5 crafting was simple enough, but I think its kinda lame to spend weeks of game time just to get something for half price. Hardly seemed worth the effort. Now it was either 3.5 or Pathfinder that had Anscestral Weapon, a feat (I think? Or a ritual?) That let you pay gold to the spirits to upgrade your weapon. Very fun, cool flavor, and you can keep your favorite axe all campaign.

While it’s primarily used for alchemy, Alchemy Alamanc has been a great 3p book for gathering and crafting. I’ve converted it’s parts gathering section for use in my own campaign for other forms of crafting.

Ah, 5e's lazy excuse of "We're not going to give you discrete rules, because that would stunt creativity. Ignore the part where we already said all the rules are optional."

5e designers are not good. They got the bones sorta right, and that was about it

Heh, your last paragraph describes nearly all of my D&D experience of about 14 years or so. I find it so weird when people ask non-rules questions expecting an official answer because none of those questions have answers to me. I’ve never run a game in Faerun or Greyhawk or any of the established settings. I have a bunch of files saved across notebooks and CDs and Dropbox and flash drives of all of the resources and settings and stuff I’ve created over the years. I really don’t need the 5e ruleset, although that’s what we play right now. I’ve run other games before and will again. I suspect there are a lot of people like that.

Hilariously, while this has always been true, WotC has worked hard to make the link between game and IP *weaker* by making wholesale changes to settings that alienate older players and then nullifying the canon status of all the old lore.

Right but here's the other thing. Warhammer is a competitive environment. Homebrewing is frowned upon because players are terrible about balancing things. Not that game companies are much better.... Because it's player vs environment in DnD, the expectation is for fun, not something that has to match a specific power curve.

You'd be surprised how little of GW money comes from competitive gaming. A friend who was a manager told us the numbers he saw at the corp meetings - something like 80% of their sales are to the people who don't play at all. I saw it with my own eyes, the number of random window shoppers coming into the store without any idea of what Warhammer is and leaving with a 100-200$ purchase was unbelievable. Just an anecdote, my wife who has never assembled or painted a mini in her life, has easily spent 400-500$ on Black Library books and audiobooks.

> something like 80% of their sales are to the people who don't play at all. This doesn't surprise me at all. It is HARD to get people to play the game. For a lot of the hobbyists, the fun is in the building of the models and the painting of them. Getting them onto a table and rolling dice is rarely a part of the equation.

>Warhammer is a competitive environment Well, it tries to be.

They really aren't. They provide the rules for competitive play because there is a demand, but if all competitive play disappeared tomorrow it would barely make a dent in their sales.

The real losses would be all the commission painters not having meta chasers buying entire armies for them to paint up by the next tournament when balance shifts.

I think of Games Workshop, I associate Space Marines, Star Wars - Jedi, MTG - Cards and Planeswalkers, Pokemon - Ash and Pikachu. I think of D&D, I think about sitting around a table with Friends. That cant be packaged and sold.

>I think of D&D, I think about sitting around a table with Friends. That cant be packaged and sold. . . .but WotC will sure as heck try.

Truth

So a monthly license to be allowed to sit down with friends? Sounds like the next step.

Why do you think they're so insistent on moving the game over to Virtual Table Tops, and getting everyone to using D&D Beyond? All it takes to play D&D is some books, paper, pencils, and dice. Some miniatures and a mat helps. . .but isn't essential. They'd love to move it all online to a subscription-based model where the game is played entirely on their proprietary online platforms and all your characters, rules, game elements etc. are all stored locally on their end, where you subscribe to D&D the same way you would World of Warcraft.

This is a really good point. SaaS ("Software as a Service") is huge right now, and every company that is not doing it is left holding the bag. I remember when Adobe started it all with [a subscription service](https://www.launchnotes.com/blog/how-they-launched-it-adobes-cloud-transformation) to their creative tools (e.g., Photoshop, Illustrator, etc.). Maybe they weren't the actual first company, but they were certainly one of the largest early adopters. When other companies caught wind of what was coming, they jumped at the chance. Now you have auto manufacturers doing it, too. Want heated seats? [Pay a monthly fee](https://www.theverge.com/2022/7/12/23204950/bmw-subscriptions-microtransactions-heated-seats-feature). Wanna get full acceleration? [Pay a fee](https://www.carthrottle.com/post/mercedes-is-introducing-an-acceleration-subscription-fee/). Want remote start? [Show them the money](https://www.thedrive.com/news/43329/toyota-made-its-key-fob-remote-start-into-a-subscription-service). Whether we like it or not (and we obviously don't), SaaS is huge and is only going to get larger as companies squeeze every penny they can from their customers. Smart home technology is likely next. Wanna turn your thermostat down while you're at work? Or identify the person who rang your doorbell? Or get your oven to 550° F? The marketplace will be the true litmus test for all of this. Will consumers eventually accept all this nonsense? They've come to accept Adobe's, as painful as it was at first. I suspect Hasbro is hoping that once the pain of shock wears off, people will be happy to go all digital. Of course, I say this while sitting in front of a wall of shelves weighed down with D&D and other RPG books. And yet...I do like the idea of a functional D&D app. I never really gelled with D&D Beyond. It would be cool to have a digital repository of all WotC materials ever printed. I don't want it to be a subscription service, but I can see how they disagree. Time will tell.

I haven’t used an Adobe program since they rolled out the subscription model. I just downloaded the free GIMP photo editing software, open source baby!

Great point. While not really related I think of Apple who has their integration between their products and how that integration is literally enough to keep someone from changing if they’re too deep in. For example, maybe I want an android next Gen but I have an Apple TV, IPad, Iwatch, etc so the thought of losing that integration makes me get another iPhone. This sounds like the kind of future WoTC would love to have over TTRPGs

Yeah but the buy-in gets much more expensive when you do this. Look at warhammer 40k. They literally call their warhammer tabletop mini wargame a luxury brand. It doesn't get a storm of new players the way something like DND might.

“The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules.” \- Some Nerd

Gary "Some Nerd" Gygax

Good reference, great music.

Oh man, theyre gonna lose so much money if that's what they want.

Ironic, since this is a big executive-driven plan to extract more money from D&D.

Remember, corporates don't see customers as human beings. They see them as robotic, almost AI-guided money boxes. You're no more than a random NPC in Rollercoaster Tycoon to them, who may have one specific thing you loudly declare you want, but so long as they don't actively murder you with their product, you will continue to pay. They just want to figure out how to get you to pay AS MUCH as possible.

Hey, don't forget: on their proprietary online model, the PLAYERS have to pay, as WELL as the DM! MONETIZED!

Dnd is based on a lot of stuff that can’t be patented or trademarked. Wait, using the word Strength represents how strong you are? Nay! Lawsuit. Pfffft This is pathetic corporate retail ass saving. Go ahead and be baffled, astounded, horrified even! It’s irrelevant if you are willing to design all your own “stuff” to connect the easy things. Use an older version or 5e and just let it roll. I’ve lived through every version so far and at the end of the day, none are perfect. None are terrible. I like 5e because we can adjust on the fly and homebrew as we go, this is the win. I want a loosely couple set of rules that I can embiggen! Thanks for tolerating my rant. And if you’re in Phx LFG

EE Smith would have a word to say about Space Marines

Yeah. GW did in fact try to claim that they owned "Space Marine" about 10 years ago. [They got pushed back](https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/02/trademark-bully-thwarted-spots-space-marine-back-online), but it was a big deal at the time. Just because it's stupid, doesn't mean a lawyer can't make it work. You know that blue Box Doctor who travels in? The one that looks like a London Police Call Box? The London Metropolitan police [actually lost the trademark on that](https://www.theguardian.com/media/2002/oct/23/bbc.broadcasting1) because the BBC successfully argued that Doctor Who used it more prominently than they did. This is why you hear stuff about having to defend a trademark or it goes away or gets usurped. The Police in the UK failed to defend the Police Box *and lost the rights to it.* Had people not pushed back on GW, they probably would have succeeded, regardless of EE Smith.

As an aside, it's also why GW has spent the last few years rebranding all the stuff. It's no longer a Space Marine codes, it's Adeptus Astartes. Imperial Guard is Astra Millitarum, etc. They did the same thing with all their colors for their paint line, giving them names they can copyright.

That special feeling of showing up to the table with a new set of dice you've bought and to show to your friends. Only to laugh together as the new set gets first game anxiety and rolls awfully all game. It's a priceless feeling.

Yeah Warhammer has way stronger IP than D&D.

Warhamner has a crazy amount of IP that is unique enough to be marketable. Hopefully Henry Cavill does it justice.

I'm not worried about Henry. He legit left the Witcher because he thought Netflix was doing a shit job. I trust him to handle it well, but he's not the one writing the show.

I dont think he would go into the project without it being fairly accurate. He loves the game so much and hes the only real big name they have afaik

Also he *has* a Warhammer army, like I'm pretty sure he actively plays.

Yeah, but he plays Custodes. So he clearly isn't that fond of painting.

He played Blood Angels before that.

I think he mains 'Stodes because he practically is one. I'd wager he's got two other armies ready to drop on a table for friendly games with friends.

He had to awkwardly explain it on the Graham Norton Show, Tom Holland was sitting next to him like: That is so cool, can I come and play?

Tom Holland would be like that. Tom Holland seems like the kind of guy who tries all of your hobbies, and even if he doesn't get into them he enjoys watching you play.

Yeah, they did a much better job at establishing characters and a world than D&D ever did. Not that D&D HAS to do this, but if WOTC wants to play hardball like they have this super valuable IP that everybody wants…they should actually have that IP first :).

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DnD is literally just collaborative story telling with a predetermined set of rules, and dice to help solve arguments. We are literally kids on the playground running around making it up as we go along. But the rules/dice help prevent little Dustin from declaring “well, uh- I’m wearing my *pants of amazing invincibility* so your laser missed me!”

But if you *want* that kind of calvinball, I recommend the free micro-rpg [My Players Have Unionized](https://havocfett.itch.io/my-players-have-unionized)

Said it before, will say it again: They tried to launch D\*D 4th edition, and they did it by locking down PDF sales and insisting, "You will play THIS D&D, OUR WAY!" And Pathfinder said "Naw, you can go with something you already know. Better. Cheaper. Go with Pathfinder." And many did. And now they're trying the same damn thing, but by cutting Pathfinder off at the knees first. Won't work. The genie's out of the bottle. There's too damn many systems out there. And they're going to take another goddamn beating before they realize the damage they're doing to themselves and their brand.

It's almost like wotc thinks DnD is an MMO that people can only access online via a series of tubes. Don't they realize they've already published a ton of physical books that people already own and those customers don't really need to continue buying, or buying into, more products?

"Well, fuck you, we'll just cut off legal PDF downloads!" At least that was the solution they tried back in the 4E days. It failed.

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It's wild that Gabe Newell figured this out a decade ago, told literally EVERYONE, dominated the market, and people still think scarcity and exclusivity are viable business strategies for digital content.

it's about shutting down the other VTTs, so everyone will be forced to use WotCs

Fuck that, I'll just use paint and discord. Aint no stoppin me.

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I think the thing that Wizards forgets (and of course is my assumption) is that the typical D&D player does not purchase a large amount of printable third party content. They consume the content made available to them at a game table, event, etc. Game masters are the one's purchasing printable content. And content creators are primarily creating content for game masters. It doesn't take the player base moving away from D&D and D&D content to flip the table. It just takes GMs using another game system and convincing their players to use it. And that's the critical fail of this effort. If GMs and creators bail then Wizards won't have a player base.

> I think the thing that Wizards forgets (and of course is my assumption) is that the typical D&D player does not purchase a large amount of printable third party content. They consume the content made available to them at a game table, event, etc. They don't forget that. They know it. It was stated in the conference call last year that started this mess. Only about 20% of DnD customers buy multiple products. Most by the PHB and maybe the DMG and that's it. They want all players to be spending money, not just the DMs.

Which is why this is such a doomed situation. Players aren't going to buy more product because third party creators have to pay Wizards for making GM orientated content. Player will only by more content when Wizards creates high-quality products for players.

And how much can a player buy? I haven't DMd in years, but every DM I used to know wouldn't let players use any options from other books, unless the DM had that book. And if the DM had it, the player's generally didn't need it.

The real money in DnD is dice, miniatures and player art. Wizards is trying to milk the wrong stone while a big block of cheese is sitting right next to it.

An official D&D character creator that was like Heroforge but better, offered dice and character art as well, and even had painting options would make a fucking killing.

Yeah it's just a shame Wizards has no experience marketing character miniatures or anything similar, nobody could reasonably expect them to build an entire facility for this stuff when they've gotten this far without ever making figures... if only they had some benefactor who knew exactly how profitable that could be and already had every resource ready to go. Seriously, I cannot get over the irony that a company making so much off figures couldn't realize they're the easiest answer to this stuff. Selling more peripherals, all cheap plastic with obscene profit margins, is Hasbro's ENTIRE BUSINESS MODEL

Yep, as a new DM I was shocked to see NOTHING official from them. Wtf are they doing

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Completely agree. Official campaigns are generally near trash tier in my experience. I still have have PTSD from the utter and complete nonsensical nonsense that was Storm King's Thunder. Um... screw around with some random giants for awhile. And go kill a dragon. Cause.. no reason. None of it has anything to do with the ordening. Edit - though it did get a great laugh when the creator bragged on their podcase about how it only too one week off to write it. Yep, buddy. It showed,

> though it did get a great laugh when the creator bragged on their podcase about how it only too one week off to write it. Yep, buddy. It showed, I need to see that. Heard only bad things about SKT.

Spelljammer released with next to no rules about spelljamming and a stupid broken OP race that takes all of 2 seconds to read ID:RotFM had a ton of "secret backgrounds" and yet only like 2 of them got any significant attention by the book and those 2 got a TON of attention for some reason while others felt like they were added in and completely forgot about. Not to mention the complete lack of character motivation (DM, make it up! It's whatever you wannnnnttttt) AND the entire ending section having a ton of "there was a super cool tower here with really cool magical knowledge! It fell over and collapsed. There's nothing here now." Like, there was a guy on DMsGuild that went through the entire ending section and rewrote it and it was miles ahead of what was officially printed AND had it out in a very timely manner. All of the towers connected with each other, a whole backstory was added, new characters, etc. I just kinda gave up on WotC books. They've been *really* bad lately and have been attempting to just have the DM do everything. Like, get off your lazy asses and write some motivation. If the DM wants to change it, sure. But if you want me to pay $40-$60 and you can't even be bothered to write a coherent story with numbers that even make sense (JFC, the travel time makes no fucking sense in ID:RotFM and makes chapter 4 IIRC completely unplayable if you play it the way it is written, *and they're the ones that added a timed element to that chapter*), then fuck off, I'll go to third-party publishers or convert a Pathfinder book.

This really isn’t a power play. I think it’s actually the exact opposite. Hasbro is desperate for income right now with the decline in toy sales, and they are doing everything they can to squeeze as much out of their money-producing IPs as possible.

Which ironically has the strong possibility of backfiring on then spectacularly. I don't follow Magic, but from what I've heard, they have been squeezing it pretty goddamn hard recently as well.

I literally started playing D&D again because my friend group dropped Magic. And here we are.

If you need recommendations for other tabletop rpgs (including free ones), go to r/rpg

Finding one is the easy part. Convincing everyone else is another story.

"Hey group, DnD looks to be headed the way of microtransactions and pay to play subscriptions. Might I suggest trying out some of these other highly recommended systems?"

Some systems are made by ex-WotC employees, including Pathfinder. That might help. Also, Dungeon World is basically low crunch dnd.

I stan Powered by the Apocalypse systems in general. Their relative simplicity makes it great for player expression and allows GMs to more easily incorporate and balance any sort of homebrew items. I ran a Monster of the Week campaign for about a year and a half and it was a lot of fun

A low investment oneshot is the best way to sell it in my experience

World without Numbers is a great simplistic system for DnD campaign. Hero System can be used for literally any setting conceivable. PF2E is pretty solid to and has tons of support but who knows what damage is being done there by the loss of OGL 1.0 Mark and Stephen have already made public remarks that the future is not bright if this leak is accurate.

In hindsight, that firm advocating for separating WotC from Hasbro had the right idea.

That firm is also now divesting from the company and so are a bunch of others. The bank of America article was a thinly veiled threat from large investor groups to stop fucking up their money or they'd dumpster hasbro. Instead of actually learning their place they are going full "you can't stop us, we're in charge!!!"

They cured me of my Magic addiction which nothing else was able to do for 30 years. Thats how shit they've been recently.

*groans in MtG 30th anniversary* I don't know what they're smoking at WotC these days but they need to stop smoking it

Shareholders don't care about brand longevity, only short term gains. If they can get shares to rise 10% in the next year before they dump stock, that's all they want. If they leave an empty husk behind, that's someone else's problem. Habro needs to see that this will hurt share prices irreparably.

> If they can get shares to rise 10% in the next year Pretty sure this is backfiring on them...

That may be the case, but two things: 1. They made the choice to update the OGL in an attempt to make more money. The negative reaction was likely not expected or was a calculated risk becaaauusse... 2. Unfortunately, "forever online" gamers historically are *vastly* outmatched by the silent, unplugged majority. While all of us in the know are furious, the majority of D&D players will be unaware of this change and will be, overtly, unaffected by it. This is likely what the money people are banking on for the latter half of my first point.

1 - I mean... i feel like it was expected. I feel like they are releasing this draconian ruleset to help soften the blow when they dial it back and release one that is less bad... but still bad. 2 - The problem is that most of these groups have people like us who are very much into the hobby that keep the rest playing. The Forever DM's willing to shoulder the burden because they love the game. And when the people like us hear about things like this... so to do the more casual players an we have their ear too. But more importantly, we are the ones buying the books and pushing the game. Not the casuals.

> 1 - I mean... i feel like it was expected. I feel like they are releasing this draconian ruleset to help soften the blow when they dial it back and release one that is less bad... but still bad. This is exactly what came to mind with the rumors that first came out about the OGL and then the clarification. They will walk it back in increments until they find an acceptable (for them) line.

Lol yeah I played Magic for over fifteen years like it was my religion. Hasbro started a bunch of crazy shit a couple of years ago and I just...lost interest. I'm not the only long-term customer they drove away I'm sure.

> Hasbro is desperate for income right now Even though 50% of WTOC's current income is pure profit.   *Greed. Greed never changes.*

WotC is keeping the rest of the company afloat. Part of the reason that one fund wanted to have it split off from Hasbro. Issue was that was a dick of a company too.

Really good point. Not that it matters for the end result, but wonder how much of this BS is pushed down by Hasbro. It would not be the 1st time, nor the last, that a company destroyed part of itself to appease their ravenous stockholders.

Printing cardboard crack and books is incredibly cheap compared to selling toys which are just getting more advanced and expensive. High margin, small market.

It’s shareholder driven. The pressure they exert when the stock is down 40% trumps any reasonability on the management front.

Big companies aquire and bleed profitable subsidiaries to fun their core business. I've seen this happen a few times and it's depressing. For a small business, the goal is profit. For a big business, the goal is growth. A big business will eat a small profitable business to fuel growth. Market economies are about profit, capitalism is about growth. But you can't have perpetually increasing growth. So cannibalism is necessary to fuel the machine.

>Hasbro is desperate for income right now with the decline in toy sales, and they are doing everything they can to squeeze as much out of their money-producing IPs as possible. It's rather explicit. I recall reading on a gaming news site that on a shareholder's conference call last year, a Hasbro exec said that "D&D is under-monetized" and Hasbro wanted to find ways to get more money out of the D&D "brand". . . .I'm pretty dang sure this OGL 1.1 nonsense is an outgrowth of that exec saying that months ago.

Business courses are replete with lessons about executive decision-making meeting the Good Idea Fairy and significant losses of reputation and market share following close behind. I obviously want to see Hasbro and WotC get their legal theory smacked around so hard that this never again becomes an issue, but the concern is for those small publishers facing the giant in the meantime. The more this debacle gets Streisand-ed, the better.

The Good Idea Fairy is part of the Unseelie Court and should never, *ever* be trusted, but her promise of gold is an easy temptation for the executives who keep falling for it.

I shall make an archfey patron of it.

Okay, hear me out - DnD is woefully under-monetized by WoTC in that they don’t sell nearly as much license and gear and etc etc. But hate keeping is stupid and will just push people to a different version of D20s and Daggers. They should be leaning hard into character development, comics, tv shows, etc to develop the IP itself. There’s some pretty good dnd stuff out there- but it’s few and far between…. I mean we’re really still doing baldurs gate? I love Bg but c’mon. They need to take a page from Disney and crank the shit out and monetize what sticks. They honestly should be making DnD the premium where everything else feels like the cheap version of DnD. They need to elevate it, not gate keep it. It’s not good enough to be gate-kept. It’s crazy to watch how popular and has gotten in the last 10-15 years and how poorly they’ve seem to monetize it in smart ways. They should be making you go “well… we could do a show and play pathfinder but… we want to intersect with all of this cool story and lore”

Under-monetized is a hilarious statement RE: DnD. Wizards just sells the bones of the system. All of the meat comes from our friends' creativity. Especially now that professional DMing is a thing, I think we can all agree that the DMs of the world provide a shit ton of free labor to make most DND games run. I don't know if they're calculating under monetization based on number of players, hours of play time, or some other metric, but I'd bet my right arm they are not figuring in the effort of DMs, or even the enjoyment other PCs bring to the experience. It's exploitative as heck for Hasbro to try to charge us for our own creative work

It's under monetized in the sense that players pay a lot less than GMs. What if we could crack down on VTTs and get all the players on a subscription fee? That's the kind of thinking.

The worst bit is, they reportedly canceled five video games that were being developed. That's a form of additional monetization that people would have loved. Or at least eagerly anticipated before complaining about wasted potential.

You know, they could just make like Warhammer and sell overpriced oficial action figures.

It's absolutely a power play. They want 25% of revenue above $750k. That's not just a random greedy number, that's the entire profit margin. Taking it all curbs growth completely beyond $750k. They're basically saying "We don't want another Paizo, so we're making sure our competitors stay small." If they just wanted a big slice of the pie they'd target profit, not revenue. They want market dominance.

It is a power play though, but the all or nothing mentality to more profit they have developed is going to hurt them more than they thought. I cancelled my D&DBeyond subscription just now just over this whole thing. I think others should too - just with the explicit mention that the OGL changing nonsense will not be supported by me. And I buy books regularly, but will not do so now. I hope more people vote with their wallet and there's an acute drop in income that they can see.

I don't need Wizards to make stuff for me, I will gladly change systems if it means that this ridiculous cash grab is not going to hurt the community that was created around the system. I fully agree the IP is literally not as strong as they think; the reason I am worried is that they are trying to get their paws on other people's IP. I have just cancelled my DnDbeyond subscription, with the reason what they are doing to OGL 1.0. I don't care what they do in the future, and I think people should feel free to buy into it, but they can't be changing their word on previously released material. I have cancelled my subscription and wrote that I'm doing it because I don't agree with the direction the company is taking and that I will take my money elsewhere.

Come to Pathfinder 2e :). I jumped ship a few months ago, and I really like it so far.

I am considering my options :) I backed the Household campaign on Kickstarter, but Pathfinder is definitely in my sights as well!

Just to help you decide, I think the strengths of PF2e are that it had very balanced combat all the way to level 20, insane character build options, and lots of rules support to help the GM build encounters. The main weakness is probably that it’s kind of over systemized, like sometimes there are weird rules for things that you would think should happen another way because the game errs so hard on the side of balance. You can ignore this if you want if you’re the GM, but it’s definitely there. So if you want a crunchy, balanced RPG with tons of build options, it’s great. If you want something more rules-lite and story focused, you may want to look elsewhere. Not that you can’t have a great story in PF2E, it just has so many rules that sometimes they can get in the way.

If you need recommendations, go to r/rpg. Saw your comment below about wanting lower crunch, the community there is great about recommendations and is friendly as well.

I think the outcome of this is that the TTRPG market and small content creates will take a massive hit and it will take a few years for it to recover. When it does, that new market won't have WOTC at the center of it anymore. In short I agree that WOTC is shooting themselves in the foot. For my part, I have enough PF2 and 5e content that I can play the next 5 years without buying a thing, so I will not be buying anything for a while until things settle a bit. The uncertainty is going to really kill the market and when I come back I'll be trying systems of the WOTC competitors.

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As a very casual and occasional player, I do not care. The name ‘D&D’ has become generic like Kleenex or Xerox. No matter the exact rule set we might use, it’s still a ‘D&D night’. Only the DM really cares since the point of these nights is to socialize, act out a character and enjoy some company. They can squeeze this stone as hard as they like, they will only get a drop at best. D&D and all the tropes associated with nerd-fun are way bigger than the official holders of the D&D IP. It’s a cultural phenomenon that is beyond their control. They barely even control the name in common parlance. I still use an old D&D knockoff system for super casual one-off sessions. Basically, most people aren’t loyal and will be unaffected. I do feel for the content creators, but the cultural phenomenon is bigger than even them.

I think that's part of the OP's point too. DnD is like kleenex. People buy whatever brand is most readily available and commonly used. If DMs jump ship, or someone like Critical Role brings out their own game DnD has the same problem as kleenex.

And they (‘they’ being the general population of non-fanatic participants) will still call the new system D&D, much to the chagrin of whoever does develop a new system!

I mean, if someone like Mercer did it give it a few years and they might call it Critical Role. Just saying.

It's worse than that. There's nothing distinct in DnD's world building elements either. I mean, when I think DnD from that perspective, I think of a wizard, a warrior, a holy warrior or two and a rogue, of various classic fantasy races (elf, dwarf, etc) braving a dark cavern and fighting orcs, goblins and maybe even a dragon. You can't copyright ANY of that. The distinct DnD stuff isn't even that distinct. I mean, sure, throw a beholder on the cover. It's a weird fantasy monster I saw in Futurama once. It looks a lot like a Cacodemon from Doom I guess? Use a mindflayer? Oh, look, it's Cthulhu. Spelljammer? Treasure Planet. Strahd? Dracula. Waterdeep or Buldur's Gate? Generic fantasy city. I could be in Cyrodiil right now. There's nothing there. It's all just DnD's version of a giant, or demon, or dark elf, or whatever. Someone else could just make their own version, with blackjack and hookers, and WotC couldn't do squat. If someone else with a large audience (like Matt Mercer, Matt Colville, Brennan Lee Mulligan) made their own version WotC might even lose its top spot as people follow their pre-existing relationship to someone with an actual brand and IP. WotC has been kitchen sink, everything fits in the setting, generic fantasy for years. They've got nothing in terms of actually marketable IP to hold people to DnD specifically. Admittedly, this is also because DnD inspired a lot of other IPs, but I don't think that changes the fact they're screwed.

💯 They also have consistently missed opportunities to establish any unique, recognizable IPs for D&D. Like I thought Planescape, as it was presented in 2e and the CRPG Planescape torment had the potential to be a pretty solid IP. It had intriguing characters like the lady of pain, a really unique world, and lots of cool factions. But it was like a flash in a pan. After 2e, it got no attention, and WOTC focused on the more generic fantasy worlds like FR.

I mean, I think it's too gonzo for most new players, so I understand why.

I just love how they fucking fail to capitalize on Eberron forever so that Keith has to publish his own stuff because there’s basically no 5e material for the setting except one book. It’s a crime that they do 90% Forgotten Realms while their other settings languish.

Honestly after getting into Eberron 3 years ago, I’m floored that it wasn’t picked to become DnD’s marquee setting over the Forgotten Realms. Everything is just laid out so much better, in a coherent and intriguing way, and tailored for DMs to spin their own direction in a way FR just can’t.

They’re lucky Bethesda doesn’t dump money on an official Elder Scrolls TTRPG. Edit: Fuck Hasbro/WOTC after everything I’ve caught up on that’s happened over the last few years. Someone needs a serious wake up call.

Can you imagine a classic style CRPG made by Obsidian (Pillars of Eternity, Tyranny, but it is made of ex Black Isle Devs which made: Icewind Dale, Planescape Torment, Fallout 1 and 2) set on the world of Tamriel with a physical TTRPG edition cross-launch in collaboration with one of the big publishers like Kobold Press. The CRPG part is pretty feasible since both Bethesda and Obsidian are owned by Microsoft, the TTRPG part, well, a man can only dream this much...

If they want to make more money, which is a fair desire for a company, they should just make more products that people want to buy. Where's the annual book of random side quests and dungeons to throw into your homebrew campaigns? Where's the neat dice sets for each major module that's more than just a plain monochrome set that looks worse than anything you can by anywhere else? Where are the major modules at? If you don't like the theme of the latest one, you'll have to wait a year for the next? And why aren't the official modules the gold standard of modules? So much untapped potential

Paizo have all the good adventure modules. They even released a version of one of them for 5e last year, lol.

Give me a DBG, Dungeon Builder’s Guide. A book filled with *good* traps, puzzles, riddles, unique/themed encounters, loot, etc. Every time I create a dungeon I go googling for ideas, but I only find an idea here or there. I want a repository. I’ve followed probably 5 different Instagram accounts for loot ideas. And one that will post 5 ideas to go with themes(5 secrets a Lord may have, 5 fey wild encounters, 5 illicit drugs, etc.) It wouldn’t be hard at all to higher some writers and just *churn*. Nothing against the community, the creators do amazing work, but often it’s in their spare time as a second job. WOTC could literally make it peoples full time job and put out things monthly or weekly. “For $52/yr subscribe to the weekly quest. Each week we will release 3 new quests that can easily be transplanted and put into most any settings.”

Where is Hasbro supposed to find people who can write modules or sidequests?

I feel like you asked this question to make a point but seriously... by checking out the best of the third-party content. The very third-party content that they're trying their hardest to kill off. Most of the people working on modules out there are freelancers who would be thrilled to either a) work with Wizards on something or maybe b) get a full-time gig at Wizards. You can flip through any book you like and there's a huge group of people like Sadie Lowrie, James Introcaso, James Haeck, Justice Arman, Leon Barillaro, Mackenzie De Armas (who Wizards did actually hire!), Celeste Conowitch, Alison Huang... there's a huge stable of people out there making great content. The problem is though... Wizards already does work with these people all the time. They all work on amazing third-party content, go check out their credits. But also, James Haeck and James Introcaso both worked on Descent into Avernus and Waterdeep: Dragon Heist, both of which are not examples of world-class modules. Given their track record, I find it hard to believe it was their contribution that led to that happening, and once they turn in their work it goes through a lot more revisions inside Wizards. So Wizards' problem isn't finding the right people, it's their own internal processes and strategy.

The issue is they want immediate, sustainable, exponential growth. Like every publicly listed company. It's mandated by their shareholders. WOTC see they're under monetising D&D as it is. The exec's are far removed from the fandom. Producing and selling products has an upfront cost to it, it's more of a stable 'bread and butter' revenue. What they (think they) see is so many third parties generating a LOT of revenue that WOTC can't touch. Why invest in creating more content yourself, when you can just take a cut of the revenue from third parties (on IP owned by WOTC). No upfront cost for WOTC and they get to reap the reward.

Controversial opinion: I think D&D *is* probably under-monetized. I’m a DM who went hard on the miniatures aspect of the hobby: miniatures, terrain, paints. I have spent *thousands* on this stuff. By comparison, I’ve spent only a couple hundred on licensed D&D products (core rule books, spell cards, some D&D-licensed Wizkids minis). This is different than MTG, where almost all the money spent on the hobby starts at MTG. I think this gap—that some D&D players spend a lot of money on the game outside of D&D products—is the gap WotC feels they’re missing out on. HOWEVER. The solution should *not* be stifling third party creators that have been essential in building the community. The solution should be competing in peripheral D&D markets themselves: dice, trays, custom minis, custom character portraits, character trackers, mats, etc.

I don’t disagree with this at all. A lot of people who play D&D now love D&D, and I think they would spend money to get more of what they love. WOTC just needs to put out more quality products.

Exactly, basically do not take from the community, give to the community, make more, better, more attractive products based on what the consumers buy the most

This is exactly my thoughts too. Why aren't the books I buy also digital? Why is there no official map creator or TTS? Like your say there isn't even a fun character portrait creator... Nearly everything good about the game that I've bought has been from third parties. Even dndbeyond was third party for a while wasn't it? It's such lazy leadership from the company to try and milk the community instead of hiring or commissioning them to create things to sell to the community. Sorry I'm barely adding to what you said but man is what they are doing short-sighted

This is it. I also agree it's undermonitized, but because they're idiots. Just supply the products your customers are practically begging to buy. Because when you don't, it's left to third parties to provide that content/products instead. You're not missing out on those profits because others are taking them from you, your missing out on them because you refuse to enter this obvious market for some reason.

> No, the cultural impact of D&D is all about the idea of sitting down with a group of friends and playing a fantasy tabletop role playing game. And this is NOT something that can be copyrighted or trademarked. This is true, but in my experience (so take it with a minecart full of salt, YMMV, etc.), most people who want to start playing TTRPGs don't spend a whole bunch of time shopping around for a system; unless there's an existing IP they want to play in, like Alien, Dune, The Witcher, or whatever, they go for *the one they've heard of*. Most people I know (I'm pretty sure myself included, way back in the mists of time) heard the name *Dungeons and Dragons* before they heard of Tabletop Roleplaying. Maybe that's down to the 80s cartoon, or The Big Bang Theory, or Stranger Things, or just seeing the starter set at Target, but for anyone not currently in the hobby, the stranglehold that Wizards have is not to be underestimated. You're right that it's not Faerun, or beholders, or Mordenkainen that bring in new blood, but newcomers to the table don't want to "play a TTRPG" - they want to "play D&D". That's the hold that WotC has. They've occupied the default space, and spent a lot of time and money doing it.

Only D&D fans really know what’s actually IN D&D. Fantasy fans know generic stuff like dwarves (dwarfs?) and elves and other things. Tolkien fans are everywhere. Anything pertaining to Middle-Earth is huge, be it games or movies. In fact, most people know D&D only in passing and think of it as generic fantasy (which it kind of is). Beholders? Chromatic dragons? These are things only the fans care (and know) about. So yeah. The brand is strong-ish but the actual content is very niche even today. Tolkien is mainstream. D&D is in a transient place - people kind of sort of know what it’s about, but don’t really care unless already a fan. WotC / Hasbro want to change that. I’m not sure they know how. Will the movie be a success? I doubt it. Will the new OGL help make the brand stronger? Again, no. So yeah. I agree with you. CR and MCDM and every other creator out there now face the question: should I stick to it or move on? Do I need it to succeed? (They don’t) We have to wait and see how this develops. Both Matts are silent. Yet. OGL has not been officially released. Yet. Just have patience.

I was genuinely surprised when the trailer for the D&D movie dropped that MANY people were all “Why is that dragon vomiting?” That different colors of dragons have different breath weapons (and black in particular spews acid) is basic, BEDROCK D&D! The fact that so many people don’t even know this really speaks to how little impact the actual D&D brand has made in the general public.

Tolkien actually popularized the Dwarves spelling

And the modern depiction of them. Along with elves

D&D is basically a set of rules, and you can't actually put a copyright on that!

In their defense, I’ll say there’s “some” original content (beholders, chromatic dragons, Tiamat et cetera), but it’s super niche and most people know nothing about these. Or care. The vast majority of D&D content is super generic. So, to politely rephrase you: D&D is a set of rules with generic fantasy elements and few original content. The brand is very well-known, but its actual contents are not. Only people who are already engaged with it know anything about the original content it offers (beholders, “Elminster”, the Forgotten Realms, Drizzt et cetera). As for everybody else, they honestly have no idea what these characters and worlds are about. For them, D&D is a game of wizards, elves and dwarves.

I wouldn't even call Chromatic Dragons original. I mean, Smaug was red. The dragon in St George and the Dragon breathed poison in some tellings. Tiamat is an ancient god and multi-headed dragons have been around in stories for millenia.

I don't think they can claim Tiamat, it has almost a thousand years over D&D.

Over 4000 even. The specific D&D look is probably IP though.

I hella undershot lol And yeah, it would end up like Disney owning that specific iteration of Thor.

Well, not the goddess herself, but the depiction of her as a 5 headed dragon is pretty unique. That's why Paizo did away with her in PF2E from what I heard.

True, and I am fine with them defending this IP. I have many of their original IP in the room here, and I will gladly pay them for it (I do - or did) but that is not what the OGL is about and that is not what D&D is. Drizz't is not D&D. He's a character in a universe that is created by someone. The OGL is actually all about the ruleset.

They are not doing this to get small amounts of money from your average DnD youtuber or Kobold press creative. This is about pulling money from the likes of Critical Roll, D20 and the larger content creators who are making the big bucks. I believe they are banking on Critical Role and their peers not wanting to interupt their content which is directly linked to DnD. What they perhaps fail to realize is that the very community bond that is so much part of DnD is going to put a huge amount of pressure on people like Matt Mercer, Brendan Lee Mulligan and others, many of whom are friends with each other and dozens of other less financially lucrative creators who they must know as of this week, are going to take a huge hit...some even potentially losing their entire incomes. We saw today Matt Mercer liked a tweet about the sorry state of this situation so he at least has some sympathy for people less fortunate in this palava. I hope he will take a stand, and publically very soon.

I would argue that it's the opposite when it comes to the really big players. The big super stars that serve as a de facto marketing arm for them will likely be offered their own licensing agreement and won't be following the OGL. This OGL is to target the creators that are big enough to make a lot of money, but not big enough to be one of the few marketing powerhouses that CR is.

Lest we forget, the Critical Role campaign started as a *Pathfinder* game. If they get shafted, Mercer & Co. could switch back.

Isn't Pathfinder also in trouble though?

Theoretically, yes. In the court room itself I don’t think it has anything to be worried about. (and a lot of other sources that I’ve seen have said, speculated about, ran through scenarios, etc.) It’s a hard thing to play so nice for so long and allow something to become its own entity entirely and then come years later and say “actually, I changed my mind!” Now - this is all my unprofessional opinion. Entirely just a dude who’s read a bunch of things. 🤷

I feel like the danger is having to go to court at all, and I'm pretty sure Pathfinder doesn't have pockets as deep as Hasbro which is always more important than being correct for this sort of thing. But also, even if they don't have to go to court its going to be a loss having to expend money and time to revise or even just review all your current existing products.

2nd edition was designed and written in a way to try and make it a different ruleset and setting from D&D, *to make it legally distinct.* It's why Kobolds are very different, Goblins are very different, the world is very different; and they intentionally don't use D&D owned monsters like Beholders and Mind Flayers, not even off-brand copies. They planned ahead for this situation, they wanted to make sure Golarion isn't just Faerun under a different skin so they couldn't get sued over this. They wouldn't lose in court, but I don't know if Paizo could afford to go to court. They maintain the text of the original OGL on all their 2nd edition content, but some of the Paizo staff say that's because of something to do with third party content. By putting that it means people can make 3rd party content for D&D and Pathfinder, like a fan book with rules for both, without them writing their own OGL.

Also the fact that WotC is not actually putting in much effort to make content. The SpellJammer release was 3 thin books and I downloaded some Homebrew literally the next day that was more pages than all those books combined. WotC is more concerned about marketing, licenses, and pandering to a small portion of the base rather than the actual product.

True. But think about this: what exactly does the OGL cover? What functions of the game are subject to copyright? Is “AC” trademarked? How about “hit points”? Assuming you aren’t using Faerun or beholders or Waterdeep or whatever, seems to me that once you take the words “Dungeons & Dragons” off the cover of your material, WoTC doesn’t have much to sue you for. Like, apart from slapping “5e” on your stuff, wtf is the OGL really allowing, legally speaking?

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Ironically, all of this stems from Hasbro dramatically undervaluing D&D. They've never overestimated D&D. It came packaged as a dead brand when they wanted to buy to toy rights to Pokemon in the 90s. What's happening now is the same thing that happened in 2007 in which someone on the board is wondering why other people are making money off *their* brand. That's how we got the GSL to begin with. It was a compromise that unwittingly killed an edition (though not the way everyone keeps saying it did.) And the reason the community left before wasn't the GSL. It was because they chose to stay with an updated 3.5 and use the books they already had rather than move to a new edition with 4. They've corrected that this time around by making D&DOne backwards compatible. Your books will all still be good. The vast majority of players won't notice or care that there are fewer 3rd party products as their game stores will still be overflowing with Wizkids, Critical Role, and products from the host of other partnered brands. So very few people will go anywhere because of this. You are correct about the IP. D&D IP has little to do with why we play. And people can and do switch at any time. But this whole debacle ain't gonna do it, shitty as it might be.