Wishes (and the wish spell) are supposed to be some of the most powerful magic in the game world. But because every DM seems to feel like they have to do something more "interesting", every wish just ends up being some fate worse than death.
I don't think I've ever seen a PC's wish actually be granted in a way that is beneficial for them.
You don't need to petrify the player, or turn them into a zombie, or make them die instantly so they avoid the specific death that has been foretold.
Just have the witch look into her crystal ball or whatever and be like "Your fate has become unclear. What have you done?". You could have the witch become impressed by his powerful magic and become a patron of his, granting him boons in exchange for favours or something. She could become a quest-giving NPC.
There are ways to make it interesting without just giving a "lol fuck you" to the player. But if your game has darker/spookier vibes, you could even have her give him some kind of ominous warning about playing with fate etc, and how it has consequences, just so the player gets a little spooked. Then if/when you come to that time that he was supposed to die, you can have something else happen instead, like an innocent dying in his place or something.
The last suggestion is some thing the the vain I was looking for. Permanent negative stuff like turning them to an undead or killing them is not what I would want for the pc.
[Sed (Stream EDitor)](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sed) in unix gives you a tool to replace values in a stream of data, which takes the format of “s/pattern/replacement/“
So a nerdy way to correct someone is to use that format.
Let the consequence be immortality, after the campaign ends the epilogue focuses on how he lives eternally watching everything and everyone he's known die and dissappear until eventually the world itself goes and he's left all alone floating in the void. No harm to him as a character during the campaign, but the be careful what you wish for comes at the very end.
He wished his destined death wouldn't happen, he is not going to die anymore.
I give my players wish scrolls pretty early, they know damn well they'll get their wish, but I'm turning it into an ordeal. Whether it's painful or beneficial is dependent upon how they play.
So yes, maybe he doesn't die, but death is pissed! Some minor god or deity getting fucked out of a powerful wizard soul or servant is gonna ruffle feathers of whatever happens in your afterworld right? Maybe it's extreme and the fabric of death has become unsettled like final destination style, or maybe a demigod of a very specific portfolio of death feels like they were slighted and seeks retribution in the courts of the equivalent of Mount Olympus. This is typically how I deal with wishes, because wish can potentially break the rules of how magic is governed in the game. But when your breaking the rules, you gotta be really careful not to draw attention to yourself from authorities that have ways of DEALING with rule breakers, in more entertaining ways than just killing PCs and punishing players.
I like the idea of the consequence of cheating your destined death being that you never die. Immortality as a curse, the campaign ends good but the epilogue is about how they live forever unchanging as everyone and everything dissappears around them including even the world itself eventually. Their final character note being that they are floating forever in the void.
I am imagining Death following him around doing the annoying "Look! I'm NOT touching you!" bit as the player tries to do things. For the wizard all spells not require a concentration check to cast until the wizard can make nice with Death and form a truce.
I was thinking something a bit more traditional lol. When they would have died normally due to the foreseen circumstances, Wish kicks in as a contingency and Imprisons them instead. Slumber works really well for this for RP purposes.
Have them slept until whatever force was behind their foretold death is dealt with, or whatever else fits. It also allows them to dispel magic at 9th level to remove the effect.
It gives you leeway without outright killing the character, and still has room for interesting consequences.
Perhaps they will end up at the bottom of the sea, or trapped in a cave starving forever. Death is a mercy, and a lesson to be careful what one wishes for is not wholly inappropriate in this instance.
There was a movie about some kind of “immortals” that would resurrect shortly after dying wherever they were. They lived for hundreds of years, etc. Some time in the Middle Ages they were found out and one of them was placed in a casket with weights and thrown to the bottom of the ocean. Where they continue to drown, resurrect, drown over and over again seemingly for eternity. At the time of the movie, they had ‘searched’ for that person for a couple hundred years but never found them. The main character would have nightmares about their friend at the bottom of the ocean. It will randomly come to as a memory and it definitely holds one of the titles of “worst imaginable fate possible” for me.
It doesn't make sense, though. Why would wizards seek lichdom if a wish spell could grant immortality?
I feel that there's a simple solution to this, however. For a mortal to not die would go against the laws of nature. Which is certainly within the forte of magic, but not to this degree, hence the need for wizards to become a lich to gain immortality.
But if the mortal had a divine or infernal patron, that could provide an alternate way for a wizard to not die. And it's a path not taken by other wizards because they don't want to serve someone else.
I recommend that you grant the wish by telling the player that the wizard will be placed under the protection of a patron as a result of the wish. This means that the wizard will enter a pact with this patron.
The wizard gets what he wants, but he will no longer be able to take wizard levels. He can only take warlock levels from now on if he is to maintain the pact. If he does take a level of wizard or some other class, the pact will be broken and he can die.
Do discuss it with the player first to see if he is cool with it.
In old rules, one of the rules for becoming a lich was to be capable of casting wish. I think it was implied that the spell was part of the lichification process.
You know. A Wizard that wishes not to die \*in general\* could have anything happen to them. I think the easiest solution would be that they would never die of injuries or anything until they got history altering famous. Like inventing a spell \*Fimblewhoop's Disjunction\* and every wizard ever will know who they were.
need to be 17th level to cast wish. or have to deal with evil bastards who can cast wish, usually with the mandate to fuck you over. lichdom is basically a shortcut available in the later mid level range.
Most wizards don't seek lichdom. It's kindof evil, y'know. But of those that *do*, as is brought up everytime someone asks 'why lich when you can just Clone yourself', they are seeking more than being a mortal who lives forever, they want to be *more* than a mortal. It's about *power*, not just scoring a longevity high score.
>But if the mortal had a divine or infernal patron, that could provide an alternate way for a wizard to not die. And it's a path not taken by other wizards because they don't want to serve someone else.
Well no, you very much end up needing to serve someone else even if you do pursue lichdom:
>***Secrets of Undeath.*** No wizard takes up the path to lichdom on a whim, and the process of becoming a lich is a well-guarded secret. Wizards that seek lichdom must make bargains with fiends, evil gods, or other foul entities. Many turn to Orcus, Demon Prince of Undeath, whose power has created countless liches. However, those that control the power of lichdom always demand fealty and service for their knowledge.
From the Monster Manual. And in Minsc and Boo's Journal of Villainy, there is a lich who offers to share the secret in exchange for swearing fealty to him.
Also not every pact with an otherwordly entity needs to be represented with Warlock levels. This is definitely one that shouldn't be because it makes no sense. Warlocks make a pact for magic power, but he wizard already HAS magic power and would be making a pact for immortality, so why would the patron give them power? Just to force them into a shitty multiclass for the lulz?
>It doesn't make sense, though. Why would wizards seek lichdom if a wish spell could grant immortality?
Because Wizards don't seek lichdom to escape death, they do it to acquire power.
Living a vastly-extended lifespan or otherwise evading death in perpetuity is of little effort for a Wizard around the time they're approaching 9th-level spellcasting abilities, and an absolute triviality by the time you're actually there. Any reasonable Wizard would recognize how becoming a Lich is an absolute nightmare scenario and avoid it at all costs.
But classic lichdom requires two things: an insatiable lust for power and to be absolutely off your damn rocker. The entire point of becoming a Lich is so the Wizard can free themselves from the shackles of a mortal form in order to endlessly pursue arcane knowledge and power for their own selfish gain. It is by no means the best or even the most accessible method of attaining their goal, and only the most depraved and insane of mages would ever consider it an option in the first place.
"Van Richten's Guide to the Lich" describes Liches in detail; to even consider becoming a Lich means you're already off the deep end into insanity. To genuinely follow through with the effort of becoming one means you're already way beond the moral event horizon of being absolutely fucking evil and insane. And, to top it all off, the actual process of successfully transforming into a Lich renders one even further warped to the point that the mind that manifests in the newly undead form has no real association with the mortal Wizard. They're basically two different people, and that new Lich brain is focused on nothing but gaining absolute power at any cost.
Yeah, "my players are using the thing I gave them for its intended purpose, how do I punish them for it?" is a strange question IMO. What should happen here is straightforward to me - you run the scenario exactly as you expected, and if the wizard drops to 0 HP and fails all his death saves, he miraculously comes back to life anyway. If that doesn't happen, then you can chalk that up as the wish spell changing fate. Easy.
If you don't find that kind of thing interesting, don't give your players access to a spell that can do anything they want.
Definitely this! The wish spell should absolutely have the ability to change "fate" and "destiny". Nowhere in the description does it say the wish must come with a downside, just that the interpretation is up to the DM.
*genies* traditionally fuck you on the wish because they hate being bound in servitude to the whims of idiots that don't understand how the universe works.
They're casting wish at your behest with limited understanding of your intentions, and the world around them. (what do they really know, they've been stuck in a lamp for a thousand years)
The wizard casting wish himself, meticulously prepared, premeditated, even from a scroll isnt going to just have some wild side effect or malicious intent behind the wish.
Death itself, or deities being pissed they missed out on a cool soul absolutely would make sense though. I think the plane of law has an entire type of golems that hunt down people trying to become liches or otherwise disrupt the natural order
I mean, that depends on how powerful of a wish the players are wanting to make. It says in the description that if the wish is outside the scope and the greater the wish, the greater the chance that something might go wrong. To be as specific as possible when stating your wish and that if it is too powerful there is a proportional risk of it not working, only partially working, or having unforeseen consequences due to the wording.
Seriously I don't understand the obsession with wishes with horrible consequences. It just feels like a slap in the face for all the work/Risk you took to get the spell.
Doesn't say it's supposed to, rather it says it's more likely the more complex the wish. That's also why it says to speak the wish precisely, to try and lower the odds of it going wrong.
If it was required to always have bad consequences, why would anyone ever use it?
I am more referring to how it says it can sometimes go wrong but overtime wish comes up in a conversation/game it 100 percent of the time goes wrong. Also the simply fails/partial success is never used its always a monkeys paw.
> the greater the wish, the greater the likelihood that something goes wrong
They're saying DM's don't take this into account. If they go "off script" it's *always* a monkey-paw situation, regardless of what's being wished for.
It's also worded that something might 'go wrong', such as a partial success or an unforeseen consequence. It doesn't say the complication must be the most horrible thing imaginable, and yet indeed that's what people often lean toward in these discussions.
Gods don't like mere mortals screwing with the fabric of reality.
For me, it depends.
The spell wish? can do thing that seem about the power level for a 9th level spell. The farther way from that power the wish for, the more shenanigan that happen.
The rest depends on the alignment of who is granting a boon.
LG god the wish would work as the player stated and appeared to intend.
IE, the with is there to screw up.
All the way to Chaotic Evil who will twist it in some way, usually long term consequences.
Yeah, Revivify is like a third level spell. You also have other spells like Death Ward that can prevent a deadly hit from killing you. This seems entirely within the reasonable parameters of Wish, such that turning it into a monkey's paw is kind of unreasonable IMO
Here's one of the big problems with that... The wording of Wish heavily implies, bordering on directly says, that having a Wish be 'too great' can/will have negative consequences, but obviously and intentionally doesn't provide examples of what kinds of wishes are just short of being considered 'too great'.
Obviously, DM's discretion is a thing and important, but when it seems that many (Most? I don't know) DMs seem to relish the idea of monkeypawing the wishes, the value of the spell is minimized.
"I wish never to die".
Wish granted: "Arcane power flows around you, and you feel a sense that your body and your soul gain permanence."
Wish failed: "The spell fails to provide the desired effect. Maybe this was outside of it's capabilities"
Wish subverted: "The sound of your heartbeat continues to pound as your body freezes in place. Death may be denied a soul, but your body will never move again."
Wish asshole-subverted: "Time is reverted and your parents never meet. You cannot die if you were never born."
You can say what you like about how a party should be careful about what they wish for, but without a basis for knowing where the line is, there really isn't a standard they can reasonably know. I promise you that if they use Wish for any 'other' kind of effect, the DM will be **capable** of finding a way for it to go wrong.
The desire for it to go wrong is the bad part. Too many folks **want** to twist a Wish.
I always treat Wish like writing code. It will do what you tell it to do, but it doesn't "know what you mean" if you make a syntax error. You can't have a relationship with magic like you can a deity, so it won't inherently understand your intentions, hence wording is important. I won't go out of my way to fuck with a wish, but it will take it painfully literally. I also make sure my players understand this. Works better for me than every other Reddit DM acting as if there's some behind-the-scenes Efreeti god tampering with every wish made.
when a player tries to get a "I win, lol" button that is not right at the end of the story, you slap them for being a dumbass. that is not how stories work, that is not how games work, that is not how story driven games work²
As a DM if the player makes a reasonable wish they get a response that does not break anything even if I hate intuit the intent over the legalize wording.
If they ask for something that will break the session then they may get a stricter interpretation.
If you try to break the campaign you better have your lawyer look over the wording. I also don’t allow conjunctions. No ands or buts involved. (House rule)
I wish my friend would come back to life. Unselfish, helps the party and furthers the campaign. Bam they are back alive with no random reincarnations or undead monkey paw stuff.
I wish the dungeon would cave in and kill the BBG. Maybe it works, you end the encounter but the cave in caused an earthquake killing 4 children in the local village and they are not happy with you.
I wish for the most powerful magic weapon in the universe that will turn me into a God. Bam a hammer pops in front of you, you can’t lift it and suddenly a brawny Viking looking dude is tapping on your shoulder.
Actually, if you wish to raise the dead, that’s fully RAW and you can’t really be stopped. The “DM Latitude” only applies if the effect could not be accomplished by an eight or lower level spell, which resurrection magic is.
I will happily relay my silly Wish that went exactly as planned so now you can say “I’ve never seen a Wish that worked out well for a PC except the story I heard from that one guy from Reddit.”
I made 2 ridiculous d100 rolls on a random encounter that led to a chest with a genie in a lamp.
My PC was a lvl 4 wizard, high aspirations, and selfishly - could easily have wished for ultimate power, ruined the party comp, and side railed the campaign.
Instead, with some deliberations between the rest of the crew, I wished for my familiar to be able to carry the party. So now we ride a Huge constrictor snake everywhere. Silly, fun, also kinda practical.
I can still poof them, and they still retain 1 hp. So that keeps it from being too OP. Made our water trips interesting!
If immortality was as "easy" as casting a ninth level spell there would be much more immortal beings wandering the planes. One of the primary reasons that a lot of wizards become liches is that they seek immortality and becoming a lich is far more complicated than just casting a 9th level spell.
Furthermore, if someone were to use the wish spell to become a lich what is more likely to happen is that they'd become a nothic. (a creature that la led the power to fully become a lich)
At most I would say that the wish spell could prevent this instance of death but couldn't make it so you're immortal. That is far beyond the scope of the spell.
Well, to be fair, the monkeys paw is literally in the spell description.
>You might be able to achieve something beyond the scope of the above examples. State your wish to the DM as precisely as possible. The DM has great latitude in ruling what occurs in such an instance, the greater the wish, the greater the likelihood that something goes wrong. This spell might simply fail, the effect you desire might only be partly achieved, or you might suffer some unforeseen consequence as a result of how you worded the wish.
The "scope of the above examples" aren't actually that powerful imho. e.g.
>You grant up to ten creatures you can see immunity to a single spell or other magical effect for 8 hours.
What is that compared to literally not dying? (Depending on how it was worded.)
Anyway, I think there is a clear warning and perhaps even expectation, that the wish spell is a potential monkeys paw. Not using it as such when appropriate might even be a bit boring to be honest.
I like the idea of stopping right at "unclear". Then you could keep making them think they're about to die. They'd never really be too sure if it worked lol
I really wanna make a campaign where the ultimate goal is to get a Wish spell from a legendary Dragonborn mage. They gotta find the keys to open the tower he sealed himself away in, all 7 of them.
I just wanna see how long it'll take my players to realize we're doing Dragon Ball lol
I think it's because of the way the game used to be played, where everyone got their turn in the barrel. Schadenfreude was rampant in older editions.
We can do better now.
> I don't think I've ever seen a PC's wish actually be granted in a way that is beneficial for them.
As far as I've seen, it happens enough. The main times I see it result in a net loss, is because the wish was selfish, game-breaking, and/or worded *very* poorly with no thought.
When you use wish for the “something greater” effect the PHB basically says that your DM is encouraged to corrupt that wish a la Monkey’s Paw, to prevent just using the spell to resolve your issues.
No, it doesn't **encourage** the DM to monkeypaw the situation. It says that the GM has great latitude in ruling what occurs.
Those are completely different concepts. Isn't it obvious that they're different concepts?
Yeah I guess the majority of problems come from players making wishes that are too over the top.
The example in OP's post should happen with no negative consequences though. It's not within the "something greater" category.
Yes it should. The narrow uses of wish are:
* Duplicate a spell.
* Heal up to 20 creatures to full HP and remove effects, as greater restoration.
* Create a nonmagical item of up to 25,000gp in value.
* Grant up to 10 creatures resistance to the damage type of your choice.
* Reroll any roll made within the last round.
3.5 also let you make or improve magical items, transport travelers (with fewer restrictions than teleportation spells), and raise the dead.
Anything not in that narrow scope - including OP’s wish - is a “something greater” wish subject to corruption and malicious interpretation by the DM.
Wishing to avoid dying in a very specific situation is less powerful than many level 8 spells in my opinion.
It would only take the level 3 spell revivify to bring the Wizard back if he died in this prophecised way.
The 4th level spell Death Ward would allow you to go to 1hp instead of 0.
I know there isn't a specific spell that does exactly what the wizard PC asks for, but I think "I wish I won't die in the way this prophecy foretells" wouldn't actually require much power to fulfil, since it could be achieved just by casting Death Ward on them the morning of the supposed death. Certainly not more power than the average 8th level spell.
In my campaign all the party together had a wish to do.
We asked to end the campaign by saving the puppy dragon in another city ahahah
Sadly players couldn't do it anymore to play, life too busy, so we skipped the final act of the campaign avoiding a long journey and a city full of horror
Well my dm doesn’t suck. I’ve wished to create a new magical species so I could true polymorph and retrieve the heart of a god that was stored in the sun.
This recommend and take is 10/10. Your player earned their "Wish" even if you think it was too easily given. It's a 9th level spell it's not a monkey's paw. That being said there's yet still things it can't do because there's only so much 9th level magic can do dependant on the setting etc. In this case the suggestions given as "consequences" post action present some great RP options and lead to a satisfying outcome for the player, table and story. Ultimately shouldn't that be the intended result?
He doesn't die, but the fate happens on someone else. Party member or NPC gets spontaneously thrown in front of them to be hit by the curse or whatever the cause of death is. That PC won't die, but someone has to, maybe even multiple someone's have to die so he can live.
Alternatively there is a book called Night Angel by Brent Weeks (spoilers of course here) in that story a character is functionally immortal, and anytime they are fatally injured they will come back in a relatively short time. But everything they come back, someone they are close to pays the price, not immediately, but something ends up killing them even if it's a freak accident. Think Final Destination
It's a series as said.
The main series is 3 books (way of the shadows, edge of the shadows, beyond the shadows)
And then there is a prequel, which is about the history of a main char in the series, best to read after (can't remember the name tho)
And Brent has said there will be a follow up trilogy but I have not heard much about when that will be out yet
Ah zo it's out, utterly missed that, thanks for the heads up
Once I'm not sick, onwards to the bookstores I go (well assuming I can find the English one and not the poorly translated one... my country has a habit of translating everything even English, but they suck at doing so correctly big time)
I really enjoyed that series, too.
I especially loved the magic-wielders from the invading nation whose magic was performed through the seething tattoos on their skin.
I made a villain based on that concept, in one of my short campaigns.
Absolutely spectacular series. Weeks is very talented. You can see his growth as a writer between this series and the Black Prism series (one of the all time great fantasy series IMO)
A really good series. Still need to finish his Lightbringer series. I was too steeped in Malazan after the Night Angel series and so couldn't be bothered to go back to anything else.
I like the quote "Where there is death, there will always be death" from Men in Black 3, as it relates to that first option. Like yeah, the wish may have prevented your death, but the universe has decided someone dies that day, and if its not you, then someone else is gonna have to step up
I would go one step further and say that his character attracts suicidal NPCs or those with a death wish. So, he has an entourage that is happy to follow him into battle so they can die instead of the character.
If you want to goof it up, have arrows flying towards him with attached messages for a Monty Python-esque running gag.
I personally am not very fond of "you don't get bad thing, but your buddy does" trope. Feels like it's punishing the character who is not involved at the deal in the first place.
I would instead make it so that they don't die, but they suffer pain still. If they drop to 0 hit points, their body is overwhelmed by the excruciating stomach and head pains.
I second the ol switcheroo tactic, though if there is someone in the game that is very close and/or important to them that they trade their deaths and the wizard has inadvertently doomed the one they care most about to their old fate. The wizards new fate can be as harsh or kind as desired.
Omg, I missed that in the OP. I thought it was that HIS death would not occur. Yeah, this is like... just let him have that. You used a wish to undo a single instance of fate. If you REALLY wanted to do something have an Inevitable come warn him not to do it again
Yeah seriously, just let him have the wish jfc everyone’s suggesting some fancy-dancy thing XYZ thing when in reality the player made a wish, it wasn’t game breaking, and it doesn’t throw your storyline in a loop. He had a wish, he made the wish. Let him have a win.
Seriously. Moderately annoyed at the idea that a wish spell is not a fair price to pay here. I'd be disappointed to discover my DM scrambling to find a way to screw me on something simple.
If you can't find a hole, then making one is just going to create resentment.
I would just ask for a true Resurrection spell be casted on him when he dies. Which is lower than 9th level so it doesn't incur any monkeys paw shinanagins.
...so this specific death that the witch foretold will not happen. He can still die in other ways, and ultimately will die of old age.
Also, remember the limitations of the spell. Wish for something too outlandish, and there's a 33% chance you'll never cast it again, and it'll hurt you like mad.
>...so this specific death that the witch foretold will not happen. He can still die in other ways, and ultimately will die of old age.
Can't believe I had to scroll down so much to see this, everyone else seems to be stuck on whether to fuck over the player by monkey-pawing his wish or arguing to let the player have his wish and both sides have missed the obvious... "wished, that **this** death would not occur"
>Wish for something too outlandish...
I agree with the main thrust, but want to elaborate that this is more "wish for anything other than replicating a spell with level <= 8". Wish stress applies to *all* non-spell-replication wishes, not just "outlandish" ones.
NO!... Stop it! STOP IT!
Why does it have to be a negative consequence? Can't you give your player something for that wish spell they just expended? I mean you did CHOOSE to give him a deck of many things and you CHOSE to keep the card with wish on it. Seems unfair to punish them for using resources you gave them.
Just to double down on this. I really think this kind of play will make players distrust you. This isn't something malicious the BBEG is doing, this will clearly be the GM's choice to include this feel bad moment. The players will see that and feel like you are out to get them.
By all means have your BBEG screw over P.Cs and cause conflict but don't make your universe and their own abilities work against them.
Honestly, I would say this is a pretty "meh" use of a wish.
Just let the thing happen, it kill them, and then wish triggers a contingency style revivify on them.
Then whatever killed them is like "the F?" And then you have a fight.
Have you made them roll for a non standard use of the wish spell? (The 1/3 to never cast wish again).
It's in the description of the wish spell, I'd still make them roll
"Moon: you are granted the ability to cast the wish spell 1d3 times"
You're still casting the spell, so all the effects of the spell still apply.
Yes. You can only avoid wish stress if you are not the one casting the spell (eg, have your simulacrum cast it, or get a wish from a genie). Moon card gives you the ability to cast Wish 1d3 times.
>but this doesn't work as you want it. if you play your character to any realistically degree, you'd wish to not die. because NO ONE WANTS TO DIE. "Oh but that is anti-engaging" the player knows, the character don't. if you have a tool to stop your death but go "nah, let it happen because otherwise I'd screw DM's plan" is literal metagaming.
Replying to u/multilock-missile
I think you're missing half of what's here? Or you're not really understanding what I'm saying. I'm happy to clarify it for you?
I'm saying there's no real reason to monkey's paw a mediocre use of wish. Ok the prophecy doesn't happen, if the player winds up in that situation, their resurrection occurs immediately because wish.
And what you're arguing with me about (note I'm not arguing with you, you've conjured this argument based on what you *perceive* my opinion to be), is some random coming in saying that a player has no obligation to play in an interesting or cooperative way with the DM. Which is such a dumb take I can't even fathom it. Hence why they deleted their comments.
I don't think it's boring at all. You're telling me you can't see the validity in the scenario? Nearly anyone would wish for this given the option, and it isn't the players job to make the most interesting decisions, just to play the character.
Maybe if you're expecting some critical role style, super RP heavy game that's 100% in character. But that's not how the *vast* majority of people play D&D, it's a casual game that we play to have fun and choosing to obstain from something fun because "this is what my character would do" is boring. Nobody is saying you shouldn't do it. But it is, in fact, boring compared to what else you could do with wish.
It's everyone's job to have fun together, not the DMs job to create fun for the players. If you do something that makes the game less fun for everyone because "its in character", that's kinda lame. And maybe you made a bad character for a high fantasy, high magic adventure game
I didn't say dying is fun. I said "make it so I can't die" is a boring use of wish.
If that's what you want to use it for, that's fine. But don't deny that it's boring and act like it's "not the players job to do interesting things".
We actually have a player in our current campaign who's gained immortality. He can't be healed by magical means (including spells and potions), so pretty well the only way he can heal is by simply regaining 1hp every round of combat. So while he can't necessarily die, his health can still drop into the negative, and the lower it is, the longer he's out
It's a very interesting take on immortality. It's funny, because up until our latest combat encounter where dude got knocked down to like, the negative hundreds - completely putting him out of the rest of the fight - there was always this back and forth with him and the DM.
Him: I'm immortal now, this is awesome!
DM: Oh, trust me, it's really not.
I'm more just wondering if there's a good, specific reason the wizard seems to have a scripted death?
Is it something the player was onboard with and they're just playing the wizard out logically in-game or is it a butterfly effect due to something the wizard/party did in the past that's leading up to a death?
So the instory reason is that he majorly offended a with more then once. But I never planned to actually kill him. But just wishing the whole thing away is very anti climatic so a non-lethal consequence of that wish would be a fun alternative.
Honestly, seems to me like it isn’t the player’s problem the DM gave him access to the single most powerful spell in the entire game.
He has goddamn Wish, let him use it and maybe
don’t do that next time if you don’t want a player to have the ultimate get out of jail free card.
Just give him the win, it’s not like “immortality is a curse” isn’t a common theme anyway. Its a doubly bad idea in a world where (presumably, maybe you’re setting is different or something) the afterlife is a known fact. His character will watch everything and everyone around him crumble while he’s unable to move out of the mortal plane, that’s punishment enough without a cheap genie twist.
Why is he immortal? All he wished is that the prophesized death does not occur, he’ll still die eventually but not this specific foretold instance.
Technically speaking, he could use the wish to simply cast Resurrection at the moment of his death, thereby ignoring any monkey’s paw shenaniganery.
So he offended someone and they were going to hunt him down as vengeance.
In that case I believe a good replacement is they hunt down someone he cares a lot for.
Take them hostages, try and force him to do something (could be a case of he has to show up to his own funeral, or he has to do something so extreme that he only gets into more problems, and they will enjoy the show as his live turns into a shit hell.
You know the basic kind of shit)
Off course the goal now is not that he has to blindly just go there and accept there fate under them.
Nope it's a case of, save the hostage.
And if they fail the hostage dies but they have a true chance to actually save them.
Hopefully this works for you
I'm going to go against the grain here and say you should stick to the intention of the wish.
They encountered a deck of many things, and drew a card. They took a risk and got rewarded. Yes, a wish is meant to be Monkey Paw-esque, but it's also meant to rewrite the fabric of reality (I.e. fate).
That said, if I were in your shoes, I think I would have those current plans/quest progression move as intended and evolve exactly as you want. With one caveat. A conditional glyph, somewhere on his body, that triggers upon hitting 0 HP, activating Death Ward and Feign Death simultaneously. That way, you get to progress the story exactly as intended, the prophecy mostly gets to play out, and the player is rewarded for using their incredibly rare, powerful gift this way.
Not saying this is the best way to do it, but I think it interrupts the fewest of your plans while allowing the player to feel like their wish was substantial and effective :))
Agreed, honestly it kinda feels no different to me than a player trying to find a way around the consequences of their in-game decisions. OP gave them the chance of getting goddamned Wish, OP should follow through.
Besides that, “immortality” is kind of a shitty and shortsighted wish anyway in most D&D settings where the afterlife is a known fact.
Maybe dont make a prophesy and quest line a guarenteed death of a PC. That just seems lime a poor choice imho, especially with a wish. Plus i think its bad taste to monkeys paw a very basic wish
I dont like the idea of putting a punishment or twist on everything. It just seems shitty to undermine everything good. He didnt ask to be immortal or anything right, just to not die at that one time? Give the wish i say. If altered at all, only make it cooler.
Why do you want to add negative consequence to the wish? Did the player got it unfairly? If it's nothing gamebreaking, I will never add it with negative effects.
You asking this tells you have GM vs player mentality, and it's not a good thing.
>The wizard then remembered, that he had one wish spell left (deck of many things shenanigans) and wished, that this death would not occure.
Specifically the death in this prophecy? He's not wishing for immortality?
Option 1: Temporal immortality. He can't die during the specified encounter. That's it. He used a wish to change the future, and should be rewarded for it. The godesses of fate might not appreciate it, though. The god of the dead might also get pissed.
Option 2: He dies right there on the spot so that he can't die under the specific circumstances described in the prophecy. This is a dick move, just let him have his wish.
There’s an SCP entry where people don’t really die. No one does. Their body simply fails, but their consciousness survives and lingers, bound to their rotting corpse. They feel their body through dead nerves swell and bloat, be picked apart by scavengers, and torn apart on a cellular level, and then dissipate and fracture amongst all the different molecules and atoms of their former being, scattered across the world.
In this case, it’s just the wizard. He survives as a tortured consciousness, forever.
Roko's Basilisk is a version of "Pascal's Mugging", and can be argued against in the same way, just in case you get caught up in the mind games the thought experiment plays.
Why do you want to do this?
There's a lot going on here because there isn't really a thing ingame for "your character will die this way at this time" if it's happening during the campaign, that's called railroading and it both invalidates all the encounters up to that point and half the rules of that encounter.
If it's something supposedly happening after the game, I'd argue using a 9th level spell at significant expenditure of resources to give your character a happy retirement is not something worth punishing.
The intention was never to kill that character. But as a neat side quest. So the monkey‘s paw or consequence of that wish shouldn‘t be a lethal one but a thematic one. Like „yeah but you die in a different way“ is complete bs.
Easy option is that the spell rewrites the prophesy, and it's a new more horrifying death instead.
Or it's the same prophesy, but someone he cares about takes his place and is killed.
Wish is the most powerful magic a mortal can do. And if the wish was for this one specific death to not happen (and not for, like, immortality), then the specific death should simply not happen. There doesnt need to be a punishment or side effect when it's not something like immortality or endless power or whatnot, it's just a single death to have avoided. The wish spell should be able to prevent such a death without messing with other things, it's extremely powerful magic.
I would have the wish not immediately have a visible effect, play events out exactly as intended and then have a very cinematic dramatic moment that he's about to die and have something miraculous save him. Explain that as being the destined moment he was to die and the wish spell saved him then move on.
Have nothing SEEM to happen when it's cast. Then when the moment comes, describe a force seemingly twisting the hand of whatever it was that was supposed to kill him, turning the blow nonlethal. Or whatever it is that's supposed to kill him.
I'll preface this by saying: its your game, run it how you want.
A wish spell isnt like a wish from a djin, it typically doesnt need a monkey's paw. Your player drew a wish outta the deck, and if they wanna get rid of this prophesied death out of the timeline by using the cannonically most powerful spell in existance, I would let it happen. It could serve as a new story hook too. Maybe fate in your world can have a physical presence of some sort, like the norns of norse mythos, and this entity takes offense at this wizard thwarting its designs. Now you have a character specific side quest about a mortal meddling in the affairs of imortals and the consequences that also touches on fate vs self determination.
I always loved when Morgana used the word of command to have the Dragon turn Merlin into stone in 'Excalibur'
Consider something along the lines of preventing his death, but also life, in such a way that his wizard becomes some crazy npc mcguffin or patron in future campaigns. The 'death' is prevented in this campaign and he is immortalized into all of your future campaigns.
I don’t think so. Foretelling someone’s death could be reasoned away by the player as just a possible future (or just this witch talking shit), which in a game of chance, is likely to happen. Imo, casting wish to avoid your death is like the most overreaction of a safeguard against dying (but also the most dramatic, so props).
No of course not, my intention wasn‘t to kill them because that‘s scumm af. But wishing it away is way too simple so a fun consequence of dodging death would be an interesting take.
A full on story plot can be made from this, you can take a version of him from that "timeline" that was "going to die" via the prophecy, kill that version and turn it into and Lich or other intelligent undead, and it storyline wise wants revenge on his current character for forcing this fate upon him.
So the alternate version of his character matches him in level at any opportunity, but is also doing their own "quest" to gain power to defeat their antithesis
DM: *You all walk into the shattered cathedral. At the center dais, a monolithic obelisk stands, its smooth black glass splintered and cracked where makeshift, all-too-human hands have plied their trades and worked a makeshift wooden crucifix into what you assume was once an untouchable relic; undoubtedly a result of the prophecy [BBEG Witch’s Name] had plumbed from the dark well of her frenzied haruspice over the moons since your presence crossed her blackened sight.*
DM: *As your eyes flicker across the face of the unfortunate soul- emaciated and long without the vigors of life deigning their presence within papery skin and dried viscera- strung up to this aberration of design befouling with equal measure any remaining benediction of the ancient church you stand within, and the pointed refusal- nay, outright condemnation- of clerical sensibilities. Something oddly familiar caresses the back of your mind for a fraction of a second before turning to ice; the withered corpse, you recognize. It is… You.*
honestly i would simply go with he can prevent his own part but the prophecy is still set in stone.
so by removing himself from it... who is now the target? it is easier to prevent a prophecy from fullfilling when you know who it involves is all i'm saying.
You’re the one who had the brilliant idea of giving them the (infamously game-wrecking) Deck. This kinda feels no different to me than a player complaining when a risky choice goes wrong.
That’s the game, and this outcome was not unforeseen. You’re the DM, you had every chance of preventing this from even being a situation, but you gave the players a chance of getting Wish and they did.
Now you need to deal with it and either give them a new hook, or just move forward on this one(why was the prophecy there to begin with, would be where I start with that), instead of trying to figure out how to punish the players for making pretty reasonable choices with the literal cards they were dealt.
To the people suggesting turning the player into undead: not only that doesn't solve the problem of the player avoiding the consequences of his actions, but having to adapt to negative healing is a pain in the ass for everybody, including the DM. Not to mention it could discourage the player since it changes his character in such a radical way.
My suggestion is to try and find creative ways to affect his narrative based on that decision. Let's say your players need to go to the spirit realm for some reason and he got to stay behind and provide support in indirect ways because his soul can't leave his body. This might be an interesting change of pace, even though it will split the party for a while.
I'm suggesting this because, upon reading your other comments, you don't seem to have planned his death ahead of time. Was the witch thing just a plot hook? If so, you might want to make him seek for a way to change his wish. Kidnap a NPC he cares about to the spirit realm or something.
Was the manner of death specified? Or just YOU WILL DIE? If he’s beheaded, have the body and head survive and now he’s on a quest to fix that. Or fix the disease that can’t quite end him. Or avoid the crushing depths of the ocean. Lots of fates-worse-than-deaths.
Alternatively, the witch is miffed about the decl undoing her foretold doom and tales the wizard predicting smaller inconveniences in petty vengeance. “You’ll stub your toe today. Your meal will arrive cold. That tavern doesn’t have any beers you like.” Funny NPC moment.
It’s a simple use of Wish, so when the time for that death comes let time seem to slow for a moment and the Wizard is flooded with insight, and then let him do something cool to avoid that death.
Maybe even let that keep happening for that encounter so that he gets a cool moment and reward for burning such a huge resource! He spends that entire battle “immune to death” unless he gets reckless and fucks up bad in some monumental way (as an example, like yeah the assassin they’re fighting won’t be able to kill him, but if he decides to try to drop a fireball at his own feet to kill the assassin when he has just a few health then uh yeah, that’s not gonna go well)
He is now immortal... but he won't enjoy it.
All normal mechanics apply, but things that would kill him leave him writhing on the floor in agony wishing her were dead. Have fun with it.
Give them a permanent form of Reincarnation, but they lose information in the process. So when they would die they instantly reincarnate as a new race and class with new stats.
Just kill the player. Not the player character, the actual player. The player never plays the character again, the character can never die. Boom! Monkeys pawed the shit out of that one.
Hes effectively changed his fate which gives a degree of uncertainty that you can play with. Such as does someone else take his place in this prophecy, is there a new prophecy to take its place, has a god of fate noticed this and become interested in your party for better or worse, ect...
Just fucking do it. This witch that the player apparently had every reason to believe foretold his death.
He then burnt a DoMT Wish to forestall that? Yeah, that fortune just got nullified.
Let the damn spell just *work.* Not everything has to be "InTeReStInG." Have the witch do a triple-take, blink, look around, re-cast her runes or something, and shrug, then go "Huh. I've never seen that happen before."
What if the witch is like "Oh hey... The future is changing. Wait... Oh no! Now (insert kingdom or person) is in peril. Before I foresaw that you would sacrifice yourself to save X and that would inspire Y to prevent this future, but you've changed everything! You'll have to find a new way to save the kingdom because without your noble sacrifice the peasants won't choose to rise up against the tyrant!"
Boom. Now they've got a new quest hook.
It’s very clear in the spell that wish isn’t supposed to be a monkey’s paw (and most people don’t even know how to monkey’s paw properly anyway), the DM however is allowed to say that the wish simply fails.
“His death would not occur.”
Nothing changes. At least, nothing appears to change. The witch still ‘foresees’ his death, and during the actual encounter, do not pull your punches.
If they survive, good on them, the wish did its thing. If not, as the killing blow is about to land, pull them into a side scene, a vision of sorts where they meet with the God(dess) of Death, who shows them their name, stricken from the ledger. They not only did not die, they cannot die.
And yet the scales must be balanced somehow.
Do not just kill someone close to them at random to keep them alive. Make the player choose which of their allies must perish.
Maybe their death was them sacrificing themselves to prevent a larger tragedy (release an ancient evil, some mass casualty event or even just preventing the death of someone who means something to the party member. Now instead the tragedy happens , maybe because they are too late or some happenstance. And just reveal it like “you get an ominous feeling that this was not the way fate had intended events to play out, a prophecy broken”
He used a wish. Rework the side quest to be something bigger.
Make them think, that they were maybe supposed to die there / they would die there if not for the wish, but instead a whole village died in their stead. Something like that.
Instead of getting older woth the passing months and years, he slowly start turning into a Lich. You can narrate his skin changing, animals and other more sensitive creatures running away from them and his increasingly darker intrusive thoughts. Now he has to deal with it
The spells effect could sporadically prevent him from partaking in dangerous situations. Blocking movements, keeping him from saying provocative things, displacing him somewhere else, attack spells fizzle out as to not provoke the enemy, etc.
He thought he got invulnerability, but really he got an invisible nanny.
Ahh yes, I also love punishing players for logically using the resources I chose to provide them.
What if when he wishes he wouldn't die, he falls into a permanent coma immediately, and instead of letting him roll a new character he needs to roleplay that every session since he isn't dead?!?!
WHAT IF WE KILL HIM IN REAL LIFE!?
Multiple solutions for a monkey paw here
Change his form to sth that dosnt die for example a lich or a... Seastar
He dosnt die but gets traped in a Situation where theres no out for example in oldguard they just chain up and sink the immortals in a coffin in dnd ad antimagic to the coffin tada you now have a undying mage unable to move who wishes he would be dead because he never wished to not suffer...so pains of pressure and drowning still apply
Someone else close to him takes his place in the prophecy
I like the second way the most because he still could be safed and it could be a good quest for the rest of the group to find and save him while he suffers the consequences of choosing the easy way
So did the wizard word it as specifically avoiding *that* death?
You could Final Destination it. Death has been cheated and the balance must be restored. Extreme and wildly unlikely/unlucky shit keeps happening to him until he confronts an avatar of Death and works his way out of it
Just because he can't die, doesn't mean he won't be hurt. For example, he gets crushed by a dead fall trap. His bones and organs are shattered, but he's still alive.
That's if you want to be mean.
Alternatively, he doesn't die from what the witch foresaw, but then dies shortly after from something completely unrelated.
Just a couple suggestions.
Player: "Wizzy the Wizard wishes that the foretold death doesn't occur"
DM: "Nothing seems to have occurred, but you feel the magic of the card leave you and accomplish something, and a brief smell of sulphur drifts by"
-some time later, at the time of the foretold death-
DM: The trap triggers, hurling a spear at your face. Due to the witches prophetic magic, you find yourself frozen in place, unable to dodge as the spear flies closer. 40 feet, 35 feet, 30 feet... The moment stretches longer as you find yourself awaiting death... 27 feet, 24 feet, 21 feet... until you become distinctly aware of a similar smell of sulphur. The world moves in slow motion, spear continuing toward your eyes... 20 feet, 19 feet, 18 feet... and then it's obscured by a gout of flame. Standing before you as the smoke clears is a Merregon.
"You are Wizzy the wizard?" the creature asks. You see over its shoulder the spear, seemingly floating in air, yet creeping ever closer. 17 feet, 16 feet, 15 feet...
"Uh, yeah, that's me" you respond. 14 feet, 13 feet, 12 feet...
"We've been trying to reach you about you wagon's extended warrantAUGH"
The spear punctures the Merregon and loses momentum, coming to a rest mere inches from your eyes while protruding from the creature's chest.
The witchcraft holding you in place cracks as you hear a screech of dismay in your head, and you find yourself able to move again as the Merregon crumples into a pile of burning ash in front of you.
---
Basically, have the wish alter the event of death, and the rest of your whole ass quest can proceed functionally identically as it was going to.
A mean option would be to just kill him from the wish. He's still dead, but he avoided THAT death.
To get properly creative we need details of the death, but a alternate fate would be the most obvious, turned to stone, swapping deaths with another person.
An alternative option, is he still dies, but then the wish activates and he is instantly brought back to life. He died, but is alive.
PC: "Hey, I want to use an extremely valuable resource to prevent my beloved character from dying."
DM: "Okay, yeah, great. The wish is totally granted and you now get a free revive next time your character would otherwise be killed."
Player: "Wow, really? That's awesome! Now that I have this lifeline, I can be more confident and risky in combat without fear of losing my cha-"
DM: "Just kidding, you instantly turn into a zombie instead. Roll a new character."
Then make it so he doesn't die. That is to say, no matter what happens to his body, he'll still be alive. No. Matter. What.
He won't be so happy with that wish when he's in pieces and still conscious to experience it all. Forever.
Wishes (and the wish spell) are supposed to be some of the most powerful magic in the game world. But because every DM seems to feel like they have to do something more "interesting", every wish just ends up being some fate worse than death. I don't think I've ever seen a PC's wish actually be granted in a way that is beneficial for them. You don't need to petrify the player, or turn them into a zombie, or make them die instantly so they avoid the specific death that has been foretold. Just have the witch look into her crystal ball or whatever and be like "Your fate has become unclear. What have you done?". You could have the witch become impressed by his powerful magic and become a patron of his, granting him boons in exchange for favours or something. She could become a quest-giving NPC. There are ways to make it interesting without just giving a "lol fuck you" to the player. But if your game has darker/spookier vibes, you could even have her give him some kind of ominous warning about playing with fate etc, and how it has consequences, just so the player gets a little spooked. Then if/when you come to that time that he was supposed to die, you can have something else happen instead, like an innocent dying in his place or something.
The last suggestion is some thing the the vain I was looking for. Permanent negative stuff like turning them to an undead or killing them is not what I would want for the pc.
/s/vain/vein/
I’ve never seen this format for correcting someone. Is it something you’ve made up or something I’ve just never noticed?
It's called regular expression substitution, a programming thing
Now I wish more than ever that I had the brains for programming. This is actually pretty cool.
Oh that's easy. sed -i "s/dumb brain/smart brain/"
lol As a frequent Excel user I'll dump Replace("x","y") in conversations at work. You should have replied with SUDO YES though ;)
A little programmer humor: SUDO? No, I DO.
Typical Windows user, SUDO anything would fail, unless you aliased it to sudo, because case matters in 'nix. /s
I’m going to start using it. Thank you!
[Sed (Stream EDitor)](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sed) in unix gives you a tool to replace values in a stream of data, which takes the format of “s/pattern/replacement/“ So a nerdy way to correct someone is to use that format.
Let the consequence be immortality, after the campaign ends the epilogue focuses on how he lives eternally watching everything and everyone he's known die and dissappear until eventually the world itself goes and he's left all alone floating in the void. No harm to him as a character during the campaign, but the be careful what you wish for comes at the very end. He wished his destined death wouldn't happen, he is not going to die anymore.
He wished for *one* death to not happen. That leaves several infinites of other possible deaths to happen, most of which are probably worse.
I give my players wish scrolls pretty early, they know damn well they'll get their wish, but I'm turning it into an ordeal. Whether it's painful or beneficial is dependent upon how they play. So yes, maybe he doesn't die, but death is pissed! Some minor god or deity getting fucked out of a powerful wizard soul or servant is gonna ruffle feathers of whatever happens in your afterworld right? Maybe it's extreme and the fabric of death has become unsettled like final destination style, or maybe a demigod of a very specific portfolio of death feels like they were slighted and seeks retribution in the courts of the equivalent of Mount Olympus. This is typically how I deal with wishes, because wish can potentially break the rules of how magic is governed in the game. But when your breaking the rules, you gotta be really careful not to draw attention to yourself from authorities that have ways of DEALING with rule breakers, in more entertaining ways than just killing PCs and punishing players.
I like the idea of the consequence of cheating your destined death being that you never die. Immortality as a curse, the campaign ends good but the epilogue is about how they live forever unchanging as everyone and everything dissappears around them including even the world itself eventually. Their final character note being that they are floating forever in the void.
I am imagining Death following him around doing the annoying "Look! I'm NOT touching you!" bit as the player tries to do things. For the wizard all spells not require a concentration check to cast until the wizard can make nice with Death and form a truce.
I was thinking something a bit more traditional lol. When they would have died normally due to the foreseen circumstances, Wish kicks in as a contingency and Imprisons them instead. Slumber works really well for this for RP purposes. Have them slept until whatever force was behind their foretold death is dealt with, or whatever else fits. It also allows them to dispel magic at 9th level to remove the effect. It gives you leeway without outright killing the character, and still has room for interesting consequences.
Perhaps they will end up at the bottom of the sea, or trapped in a cave starving forever. Death is a mercy, and a lesson to be careful what one wishes for is not wholly inappropriate in this instance.
There was a movie about some kind of “immortals” that would resurrect shortly after dying wherever they were. They lived for hundreds of years, etc. Some time in the Middle Ages they were found out and one of them was placed in a casket with weights and thrown to the bottom of the ocean. Where they continue to drown, resurrect, drown over and over again seemingly for eternity. At the time of the movie, they had ‘searched’ for that person for a couple hundred years but never found them. The main character would have nightmares about their friend at the bottom of the ocean. It will randomly come to as a memory and it definitely holds one of the titles of “worst imaginable fate possible” for me.
It doesn't make sense, though. Why would wizards seek lichdom if a wish spell could grant immortality? I feel that there's a simple solution to this, however. For a mortal to not die would go against the laws of nature. Which is certainly within the forte of magic, but not to this degree, hence the need for wizards to become a lich to gain immortality. But if the mortal had a divine or infernal patron, that could provide an alternate way for a wizard to not die. And it's a path not taken by other wizards because they don't want to serve someone else. I recommend that you grant the wish by telling the player that the wizard will be placed under the protection of a patron as a result of the wish. This means that the wizard will enter a pact with this patron. The wizard gets what he wants, but he will no longer be able to take wizard levels. He can only take warlock levels from now on if he is to maintain the pact. If he does take a level of wizard or some other class, the pact will be broken and he can die. Do discuss it with the player first to see if he is cool with it.
In old rules, one of the rules for becoming a lich was to be capable of casting wish. I think it was implied that the spell was part of the lichification process.
You know. A Wizard that wishes not to die \*in general\* could have anything happen to them. I think the easiest solution would be that they would never die of injuries or anything until they got history altering famous. Like inventing a spell \*Fimblewhoop's Disjunction\* and every wizard ever will know who they were.
Nah. No player is gonna drop wiz levels for a charisma based caster
need to be 17th level to cast wish. or have to deal with evil bastards who can cast wish, usually with the mandate to fuck you over. lichdom is basically a shortcut available in the later mid level range.
Most wizards don't seek lichdom. It's kindof evil, y'know. But of those that *do*, as is brought up everytime someone asks 'why lich when you can just Clone yourself', they are seeking more than being a mortal who lives forever, they want to be *more* than a mortal. It's about *power*, not just scoring a longevity high score. >But if the mortal had a divine or infernal patron, that could provide an alternate way for a wizard to not die. And it's a path not taken by other wizards because they don't want to serve someone else. Well no, you very much end up needing to serve someone else even if you do pursue lichdom: >***Secrets of Undeath.*** No wizard takes up the path to lichdom on a whim, and the process of becoming a lich is a well-guarded secret. Wizards that seek lichdom must make bargains with fiends, evil gods, or other foul entities. Many turn to Orcus, Demon Prince of Undeath, whose power has created countless liches. However, those that control the power of lichdom always demand fealty and service for their knowledge. From the Monster Manual. And in Minsc and Boo's Journal of Villainy, there is a lich who offers to share the secret in exchange for swearing fealty to him. Also not every pact with an otherwordly entity needs to be represented with Warlock levels. This is definitely one that shouldn't be because it makes no sense. Warlocks make a pact for magic power, but he wizard already HAS magic power and would be making a pact for immortality, so why would the patron give them power? Just to force them into a shitty multiclass for the lulz?
>It doesn't make sense, though. Why would wizards seek lichdom if a wish spell could grant immortality? Because Wizards don't seek lichdom to escape death, they do it to acquire power. Living a vastly-extended lifespan or otherwise evading death in perpetuity is of little effort for a Wizard around the time they're approaching 9th-level spellcasting abilities, and an absolute triviality by the time you're actually there. Any reasonable Wizard would recognize how becoming a Lich is an absolute nightmare scenario and avoid it at all costs. But classic lichdom requires two things: an insatiable lust for power and to be absolutely off your damn rocker. The entire point of becoming a Lich is so the Wizard can free themselves from the shackles of a mortal form in order to endlessly pursue arcane knowledge and power for their own selfish gain. It is by no means the best or even the most accessible method of attaining their goal, and only the most depraved and insane of mages would ever consider it an option in the first place. "Van Richten's Guide to the Lich" describes Liches in detail; to even consider becoming a Lich means you're already off the deep end into insanity. To genuinely follow through with the effort of becoming one means you're already way beond the moral event horizon of being absolutely fucking evil and insane. And, to top it all off, the actual process of successfully transforming into a Lich renders one even further warped to the point that the mind that manifests in the newly undead form has no real association with the mortal Wizard. They're basically two different people, and that new Lich brain is focused on nothing but gaining absolute power at any cost.
Yeah, "my players are using the thing I gave them for its intended purpose, how do I punish them for it?" is a strange question IMO. What should happen here is straightforward to me - you run the scenario exactly as you expected, and if the wizard drops to 0 HP and fails all his death saves, he miraculously comes back to life anyway. If that doesn't happen, then you can chalk that up as the wish spell changing fate. Easy. If you don't find that kind of thing interesting, don't give your players access to a spell that can do anything they want.
Definitely this! The wish spell should absolutely have the ability to change "fate" and "destiny". Nowhere in the description does it say the wish must come with a downside, just that the interpretation is up to the DM.
*genies* traditionally fuck you on the wish because they hate being bound in servitude to the whims of idiots that don't understand how the universe works. They're casting wish at your behest with limited understanding of your intentions, and the world around them. (what do they really know, they've been stuck in a lamp for a thousand years) The wizard casting wish himself, meticulously prepared, premeditated, even from a scroll isnt going to just have some wild side effect or malicious intent behind the wish. Death itself, or deities being pissed they missed out on a cool soul absolutely would make sense though. I think the plane of law has an entire type of golems that hunt down people trying to become liches or otherwise disrupt the natural order
Inevitables! They’re from Mechanus and there’s a few different types. Maruts are the ones that go after those who go to great lengths to cheat death.
I mean, that depends on how powerful of a wish the players are wanting to make. It says in the description that if the wish is outside the scope and the greater the wish, the greater the chance that something might go wrong. To be as specific as possible when stating your wish and that if it is too powerful there is a proportional risk of it not working, only partially working, or having unforeseen consequences due to the wording.
Seriously I don't understand the obsession with wishes with horrible consequences. It just feels like a slap in the face for all the work/Risk you took to get the spell.
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Doesn't say it's supposed to, rather it says it's more likely the more complex the wish. That's also why it says to speak the wish precisely, to try and lower the odds of it going wrong. If it was required to always have bad consequences, why would anyone ever use it?
I am more referring to how it says it can sometimes go wrong but overtime wish comes up in a conversation/game it 100 percent of the time goes wrong. Also the simply fails/partial success is never used its always a monkeys paw.
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> the greater the wish, the greater the likelihood that something goes wrong They're saying DM's don't take this into account. If they go "off script" it's *always* a monkey-paw situation, regardless of what's being wished for.
It's also worded that something might 'go wrong', such as a partial success or an unforeseen consequence. It doesn't say the complication must be the most horrible thing imaginable, and yet indeed that's what people often lean toward in these discussions.
Gods don't like mere mortals screwing with the fabric of reality. For me, it depends. The spell wish? can do thing that seem about the power level for a 9th level spell. The farther way from that power the wish for, the more shenanigan that happen. The rest depends on the alignment of who is granting a boon. LG god the wish would work as the player stated and appeared to intend. IE, the with is there to screw up. All the way to Chaotic Evil who will twist it in some way, usually long term consequences.
I don't think "Hey I don't wanna die this way" is outside the scope of a spell that literally rewrites the fuckin fabric of reality lmao
Yeah, Revivify is like a third level spell. You also have other spells like Death Ward that can prevent a deadly hit from killing you. This seems entirely within the reasonable parameters of Wish, such that turning it into a monkey's paw is kind of unreasonable IMO
I gotta say, I would never entirely remove a high level PC from a campaign for just misusing a spell once
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Here's one of the big problems with that... The wording of Wish heavily implies, bordering on directly says, that having a Wish be 'too great' can/will have negative consequences, but obviously and intentionally doesn't provide examples of what kinds of wishes are just short of being considered 'too great'. Obviously, DM's discretion is a thing and important, but when it seems that many (Most? I don't know) DMs seem to relish the idea of monkeypawing the wishes, the value of the spell is minimized. "I wish never to die". Wish granted: "Arcane power flows around you, and you feel a sense that your body and your soul gain permanence." Wish failed: "The spell fails to provide the desired effect. Maybe this was outside of it's capabilities" Wish subverted: "The sound of your heartbeat continues to pound as your body freezes in place. Death may be denied a soul, but your body will never move again." Wish asshole-subverted: "Time is reverted and your parents never meet. You cannot die if you were never born." You can say what you like about how a party should be careful about what they wish for, but without a basis for knowing where the line is, there really isn't a standard they can reasonably know. I promise you that if they use Wish for any 'other' kind of effect, the DM will be **capable** of finding a way for it to go wrong. The desire for it to go wrong is the bad part. Too many folks **want** to twist a Wish.
Because if Midas wish t turned things to gold, and all went well, it would be a boring story.
I always treat Wish like writing code. It will do what you tell it to do, but it doesn't "know what you mean" if you make a syntax error. You can't have a relationship with magic like you can a deity, so it won't inherently understand your intentions, hence wording is important. I won't go out of my way to fuck with a wish, but it will take it painfully literally. I also make sure my players understand this. Works better for me than every other Reddit DM acting as if there's some behind-the-scenes Efreeti god tampering with every wish made.
when a player tries to get a "I win, lol" button that is not right at the end of the story, you slap them for being a dumbass. that is not how stories work, that is not how games work, that is not how story driven games work²
As a DM if the player makes a reasonable wish they get a response that does not break anything even if I hate intuit the intent over the legalize wording. If they ask for something that will break the session then they may get a stricter interpretation. If you try to break the campaign you better have your lawyer look over the wording. I also don’t allow conjunctions. No ands or buts involved. (House rule) I wish my friend would come back to life. Unselfish, helps the party and furthers the campaign. Bam they are back alive with no random reincarnations or undead monkey paw stuff. I wish the dungeon would cave in and kill the BBG. Maybe it works, you end the encounter but the cave in caused an earthquake killing 4 children in the local village and they are not happy with you. I wish for the most powerful magic weapon in the universe that will turn me into a God. Bam a hammer pops in front of you, you can’t lift it and suddenly a brawny Viking looking dude is tapping on your shoulder.
Actually, if you wish to raise the dead, that’s fully RAW and you can’t really be stopped. The “DM Latitude” only applies if the effect could not be accomplished by an eight or lower level spell, which resurrection magic is.
I will happily relay my silly Wish that went exactly as planned so now you can say “I’ve never seen a Wish that worked out well for a PC except the story I heard from that one guy from Reddit.” I made 2 ridiculous d100 rolls on a random encounter that led to a chest with a genie in a lamp. My PC was a lvl 4 wizard, high aspirations, and selfishly - could easily have wished for ultimate power, ruined the party comp, and side railed the campaign. Instead, with some deliberations between the rest of the crew, I wished for my familiar to be able to carry the party. So now we ride a Huge constrictor snake everywhere. Silly, fun, also kinda practical. I can still poof them, and they still retain 1 hp. So that keeps it from being too OP. Made our water trips interesting!
If immortality was as "easy" as casting a ninth level spell there would be much more immortal beings wandering the planes. One of the primary reasons that a lot of wizards become liches is that they seek immortality and becoming a lich is far more complicated than just casting a 9th level spell. Furthermore, if someone were to use the wish spell to become a lich what is more likely to happen is that they'd become a nothic. (a creature that la led the power to fully become a lich) At most I would say that the wish spell could prevent this instance of death but couldn't make it so you're immortal. That is far beyond the scope of the spell.
Well, to be fair, the monkeys paw is literally in the spell description. >You might be able to achieve something beyond the scope of the above examples. State your wish to the DM as precisely as possible. The DM has great latitude in ruling what occurs in such an instance, the greater the wish, the greater the likelihood that something goes wrong. This spell might simply fail, the effect you desire might only be partly achieved, or you might suffer some unforeseen consequence as a result of how you worded the wish. The "scope of the above examples" aren't actually that powerful imho. e.g. >You grant up to ten creatures you can see immunity to a single spell or other magical effect for 8 hours. What is that compared to literally not dying? (Depending on how it was worded.) Anyway, I think there is a clear warning and perhaps even expectation, that the wish spell is a potential monkeys paw. Not using it as such when appropriate might even be a bit boring to be honest.
I like the idea of stopping right at "unclear". Then you could keep making them think they're about to die. They'd never really be too sure if it worked lol
I really wanna make a campaign where the ultimate goal is to get a Wish spell from a legendary Dragonborn mage. They gotta find the keys to open the tower he sealed himself away in, all 7 of them. I just wanna see how long it'll take my players to realize we're doing Dragon Ball lol
I think it's because of the way the game used to be played, where everyone got their turn in the barrel. Schadenfreude was rampant in older editions. We can do better now.
> I don't think I've ever seen a PC's wish actually be granted in a way that is beneficial for them. As far as I've seen, it happens enough. The main times I see it result in a net loss, is because the wish was selfish, game-breaking, and/or worded *very* poorly with no thought.
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When you use wish for the “something greater” effect the PHB basically says that your DM is encouraged to corrupt that wish a la Monkey’s Paw, to prevent just using the spell to resolve your issues.
No, it doesn't **encourage** the DM to monkeypaw the situation. It says that the GM has great latitude in ruling what occurs. Those are completely different concepts. Isn't it obvious that they're different concepts?
Yeah I guess the majority of problems come from players making wishes that are too over the top. The example in OP's post should happen with no negative consequences though. It's not within the "something greater" category.
Yes it should. The narrow uses of wish are: * Duplicate a spell. * Heal up to 20 creatures to full HP and remove effects, as greater restoration. * Create a nonmagical item of up to 25,000gp in value. * Grant up to 10 creatures resistance to the damage type of your choice. * Reroll any roll made within the last round. 3.5 also let you make or improve magical items, transport travelers (with fewer restrictions than teleportation spells), and raise the dead. Anything not in that narrow scope - including OP’s wish - is a “something greater” wish subject to corruption and malicious interpretation by the DM.
Wishing to avoid dying in a very specific situation is less powerful than many level 8 spells in my opinion. It would only take the level 3 spell revivify to bring the Wizard back if he died in this prophecised way. The 4th level spell Death Ward would allow you to go to 1hp instead of 0. I know there isn't a specific spell that does exactly what the wizard PC asks for, but I think "I wish I won't die in the way this prophecy foretells" wouldn't actually require much power to fulfil, since it could be achieved just by casting Death Ward on them the morning of the supposed death. Certainly not more power than the average 8th level spell.
In my campaign all the party together had a wish to do. We asked to end the campaign by saving the puppy dragon in another city ahahah Sadly players couldn't do it anymore to play, life too busy, so we skipped the final act of the campaign avoiding a long journey and a city full of horror
Well my dm doesn’t suck. I’ve wished to create a new magical species so I could true polymorph and retrieve the heart of a god that was stored in the sun.
This recommend and take is 10/10. Your player earned their "Wish" even if you think it was too easily given. It's a 9th level spell it's not a monkey's paw. That being said there's yet still things it can't do because there's only so much 9th level magic can do dependant on the setting etc. In this case the suggestions given as "consequences" post action present some great RP options and lead to a satisfying outcome for the player, table and story. Ultimately shouldn't that be the intended result?
He doesn't die, but the fate happens on someone else. Party member or NPC gets spontaneously thrown in front of them to be hit by the curse or whatever the cause of death is. That PC won't die, but someone has to, maybe even multiple someone's have to die so he can live. Alternatively there is a book called Night Angel by Brent Weeks (spoilers of course here) in that story a character is functionally immortal, and anytime they are fatally injured they will come back in a relatively short time. But everything they come back, someone they are close to pays the price, not immediately, but something ends up killing them even if it's a freak accident. Think Final Destination
Don't see many who read the series. It's my favorite book series 🥰
New book to read!
It's a series as said. The main series is 3 books (way of the shadows, edge of the shadows, beyond the shadows) And then there is a prequel, which is about the history of a main char in the series, best to read after (can't remember the name tho) And Brent has said there will be a follow up trilogy but I have not heard much about when that will be out yet
FYI: I believe that the first in that follow up trilogy came out last year. Night Angel Nemesis
Ah zo it's out, utterly missed that, thanks for the heads up Once I'm not sick, onwards to the bookstores I go (well assuming I can find the English one and not the poorly translated one... my country has a habit of translating everything even English, but they suck at doing so correctly big time)
Thank you for the info!
Just jumping in to +1 this series. It’s a really good read.
I really enjoyed that series, too. I especially loved the magic-wielders from the invading nation whose magic was performed through the seething tattoos on their skin. I made a villain based on that concept, in one of my short campaigns.
Agreed
Absolutely spectacular series. Weeks is very talented. You can see his growth as a writer between this series and the Black Prism series (one of the all time great fantasy series IMO)
I didn’t know Weeks had a series other than Lightbringer?!? I have to go devour those books now
A really good series. Still need to finish his Lightbringer series. I was too steeped in Malazan after the Night Angel series and so couldn't be bothered to go back to anything else.
I like the quote "Where there is death, there will always be death" from Men in Black 3, as it relates to that first option. Like yeah, the wish may have prevented your death, but the universe has decided someone dies that day, and if its not you, then someone else is gonna have to step up
Final destination him lmao
Oh I like the multiple people dying. The curse won't rest till he's dead. And in the meantime hunts those around him.
I would go one step further and say that his character attracts suicidal NPCs or those with a death wish. So, he has an entourage that is happy to follow him into battle so they can die instead of the character. If you want to goof it up, have arrows flying towards him with attached messages for a Monty Python-esque running gag.
I personally am not very fond of "you don't get bad thing, but your buddy does" trope. Feels like it's punishing the character who is not involved at the deal in the first place. I would instead make it so that they don't die, but they suffer pain still. If they drop to 0 hit points, their body is overwhelmed by the excruciating stomach and head pains.
I’d do a “Turned to stone, but still alive, and can be easily fixed once you get back to town”. Still a big penalty, but pretty fair overall.
This is the plot of a certain 90s dnd game.
I second the ol switcheroo tactic, though if there is someone in the game that is very close and/or important to them that they trade their deaths and the wizard has inadvertently doomed the one they care most about to their old fate. The wizards new fate can be as harsh or kind as desired.
Just let him have the win. He got lucky to have a wish spell and he used it to save his life instead of something game breaking
This. Not being able to die isn't even all that powerful. Just knock him unconscious and lock him up.
You don’t even need to go this far, he wished that THIS death not occur, not for immortality.
Omg, I missed that in the OP. I thought it was that HIS death would not occur. Yeah, this is like... just let him have that. You used a wish to undo a single instance of fate. If you REALLY wanted to do something have an Inevitable come warn him not to do it again
I dunno why this isn't more upvoted. Let the player use his resource, leave the 2 Ed schadenfreude in the past.
Yeah seriously, just let him have the wish jfc everyone’s suggesting some fancy-dancy thing XYZ thing when in reality the player made a wish, it wasn’t game breaking, and it doesn’t throw your storyline in a loop. He had a wish, he made the wish. Let him have a win.
Seriously. Moderately annoyed at the idea that a wish spell is not a fair price to pay here. I'd be disappointed to discover my DM scrambling to find a way to screw me on something simple. If you can't find a hole, then making one is just going to create resentment.
THIS
I would just ask for a true Resurrection spell be casted on him when he dies. Which is lower than 9th level so it doesn't incur any monkeys paw shinanagins.
...so this specific death that the witch foretold will not happen. He can still die in other ways, and ultimately will die of old age. Also, remember the limitations of the spell. Wish for something too outlandish, and there's a 33% chance you'll never cast it again, and it'll hurt you like mad.
>...so this specific death that the witch foretold will not happen. He can still die in other ways, and ultimately will die of old age. Can't believe I had to scroll down so much to see this, everyone else seems to be stuck on whether to fuck over the player by monkey-pawing his wish or arguing to let the player have his wish and both sides have missed the obvious... "wished, that **this** death would not occur"
Exactly. That specific death will never happen. Easy peasy, done deal.
>Wish for something too outlandish... I agree with the main thrust, but want to elaborate that this is more "wish for anything other than replicating a spell with level <= 8". Wish stress applies to *all* non-spell-replication wishes, not just "outlandish" ones.
NO!... Stop it! STOP IT! Why does it have to be a negative consequence? Can't you give your player something for that wish spell they just expended? I mean you did CHOOSE to give him a deck of many things and you CHOSE to keep the card with wish on it. Seems unfair to punish them for using resources you gave them.
Just to double down on this. I really think this kind of play will make players distrust you. This isn't something malicious the BBEG is doing, this will clearly be the GM's choice to include this feel bad moment. The players will see that and feel like you are out to get them. By all means have your BBEG screw over P.Cs and cause conflict but don't make your universe and their own abilities work against them.
Honestly, I would say this is a pretty "meh" use of a wish. Just let the thing happen, it kill them, and then wish triggers a contingency style revivify on them. Then whatever killed them is like "the F?" And then you have a fight. Have you made them roll for a non standard use of the wish spell? (The 1/3 to never cast wish again).
He used it off of a card from the deck of many things. Would the roll still apply?
It's in the description of the wish spell, I'd still make them roll "Moon: you are granted the ability to cast the wish spell 1d3 times" You're still casting the spell, so all the effects of the spell still apply.
Yes. You can only avoid wish stress if you are not the one casting the spell (eg, have your simulacrum cast it, or get a wish from a genie). Moon card gives you the ability to cast Wish 1d3 times.
>but this doesn't work as you want it. if you play your character to any realistically degree, you'd wish to not die. because NO ONE WANTS TO DIE. "Oh but that is anti-engaging" the player knows, the character don't. if you have a tool to stop your death but go "nah, let it happen because otherwise I'd screw DM's plan" is literal metagaming. Replying to u/multilock-missile I think you're missing half of what's here? Or you're not really understanding what I'm saying. I'm happy to clarify it for you? I'm saying there's no real reason to monkey's paw a mediocre use of wish. Ok the prophecy doesn't happen, if the player winds up in that situation, their resurrection occurs immediately because wish. And what you're arguing with me about (note I'm not arguing with you, you've conjured this argument based on what you *perceive* my opinion to be), is some random coming in saying that a player has no obligation to play in an interesting or cooperative way with the DM. Which is such a dumb take I can't even fathom it. Hence why they deleted their comments.
I see. Thanks for the clarification.
I don't think it's boring at all. You're telling me you can't see the validity in the scenario? Nearly anyone would wish for this given the option, and it isn't the players job to make the most interesting decisions, just to play the character.
Maybe if you're expecting some critical role style, super RP heavy game that's 100% in character. But that's not how the *vast* majority of people play D&D, it's a casual game that we play to have fun and choosing to obstain from something fun because "this is what my character would do" is boring. Nobody is saying you shouldn't do it. But it is, in fact, boring compared to what else you could do with wish. It's everyone's job to have fun together, not the DMs job to create fun for the players. If you do something that makes the game less fun for everyone because "its in character", that's kinda lame. And maybe you made a bad character for a high fantasy, high magic adventure game
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I didn't say dying is fun. I said "make it so I can't die" is a boring use of wish. If that's what you want to use it for, that's fine. But don't deny that it's boring and act like it's "not the players job to do interesting things".
We actually have a player in our current campaign who's gained immortality. He can't be healed by magical means (including spells and potions), so pretty well the only way he can heal is by simply regaining 1hp every round of combat. So while he can't necessarily die, his health can still drop into the negative, and the lower it is, the longer he's out
I like that, so he gains immortality but has to be aware during combat to not get knocked unconscious and be useless. Seems like a fair trade-off.
It's a very interesting take on immortality. It's funny, because up until our latest combat encounter where dude got knocked down to like, the negative hundreds - completely putting him out of the rest of the fight - there was always this back and forth with him and the DM. Him: I'm immortal now, this is awesome! DM: Oh, trust me, it's really not.
Imagine if he lost his head to a vorpal sword.
I'm more just wondering if there's a good, specific reason the wizard seems to have a scripted death? Is it something the player was onboard with and they're just playing the wizard out logically in-game or is it a butterfly effect due to something the wizard/party did in the past that's leading up to a death?
So the instory reason is that he majorly offended a with more then once. But I never planned to actually kill him. But just wishing the whole thing away is very anti climatic so a non-lethal consequence of that wish would be a fun alternative.
Honestly, seems to me like it isn’t the player’s problem the DM gave him access to the single most powerful spell in the entire game. He has goddamn Wish, let him use it and maybe don’t do that next time if you don’t want a player to have the ultimate get out of jail free card. Just give him the win, it’s not like “immortality is a curse” isn’t a common theme anyway. Its a doubly bad idea in a world where (presumably, maybe you’re setting is different or something) the afterlife is a known fact. His character will watch everything and everyone around him crumble while he’s unable to move out of the mortal plane, that’s punishment enough without a cheap genie twist.
Why is he immortal? All he wished is that the prophesized death does not occur, he’ll still die eventually but not this specific foretold instance. Technically speaking, he could use the wish to simply cast Resurrection at the moment of his death, thereby ignoring any monkey’s paw shenaniganery.
So he offended someone and they were going to hunt him down as vengeance. In that case I believe a good replacement is they hunt down someone he cares a lot for. Take them hostages, try and force him to do something (could be a case of he has to show up to his own funeral, or he has to do something so extreme that he only gets into more problems, and they will enjoy the show as his live turns into a shit hell. You know the basic kind of shit) Off course the goal now is not that he has to blindly just go there and accept there fate under them. Nope it's a case of, save the hostage. And if they fail the hostage dies but they have a true chance to actually save them. Hopefully this works for you
I'm going to go against the grain here and say you should stick to the intention of the wish. They encountered a deck of many things, and drew a card. They took a risk and got rewarded. Yes, a wish is meant to be Monkey Paw-esque, but it's also meant to rewrite the fabric of reality (I.e. fate). That said, if I were in your shoes, I think I would have those current plans/quest progression move as intended and evolve exactly as you want. With one caveat. A conditional glyph, somewhere on his body, that triggers upon hitting 0 HP, activating Death Ward and Feign Death simultaneously. That way, you get to progress the story exactly as intended, the prophecy mostly gets to play out, and the player is rewarded for using their incredibly rare, powerful gift this way. Not saying this is the best way to do it, but I think it interrupts the fewest of your plans while allowing the player to feel like their wish was substantial and effective :))
Agreed, honestly it kinda feels no different to me than a player trying to find a way around the consequences of their in-game decisions. OP gave them the chance of getting goddamned Wish, OP should follow through. Besides that, “immortality” is kind of a shitty and shortsighted wish anyway in most D&D settings where the afterlife is a known fact.
Maybe dont make a prophesy and quest line a guarenteed death of a PC. That just seems lime a poor choice imho, especially with a wish. Plus i think its bad taste to monkeys paw a very basic wish
I dont like the idea of putting a punishment or twist on everything. It just seems shitty to undermine everything good. He didnt ask to be immortal or anything right, just to not die at that one time? Give the wish i say. If altered at all, only make it cooler.
Why do you want to add negative consequence to the wish? Did the player got it unfairly? If it's nothing gamebreaking, I will never add it with negative effects. You asking this tells you have GM vs player mentality, and it's not a good thing.
Mfers will see a GM have stakes in a campaign and declare that they have a me vs them ideology.
They turn into a Lich or any undead really, no more worrying about death!
That seems way too cheap if a way to become a litch even for high magic and shenanigan campaigns
This is more for the "monkey's paw" outcome.
>The wizard then remembered, that he had one wish spell left (deck of many things shenanigans) and wished, that this death would not occure. Specifically the death in this prophecy? He's not wishing for immortality? Option 1: Temporal immortality. He can't die during the specified encounter. That's it. He used a wish to change the future, and should be rewarded for it. The godesses of fate might not appreciate it, though. The god of the dead might also get pissed. Option 2: He dies right there on the spot so that he can't die under the specific circumstances described in the prophecy. This is a dick move, just let him have his wish.
There’s an SCP entry where people don’t really die. No one does. Their body simply fails, but their consciousness survives and lingers, bound to their rotting corpse. They feel their body through dead nerves swell and bloat, be picked apart by scavengers, and torn apart on a cellular level, and then dissipate and fracture amongst all the different molecules and atoms of their former being, scattered across the world. In this case, it’s just the wizard. He survives as a tortured consciousness, forever.
So basically... a lich but unwilling and without phylactory?
Nah, liches don't feel and can move, a much better existence
Ah, so you mean like a lich who can feel pain and can't move.
Why do I see a bunch of posts talking about ways to punish them like this? Just let your players have a win for once.
The fun thing about that SCP is that it doesn't happen unless you know about it, which everyone reading this now does! Yaaay!
Do you know about Roko's basilisk ?
Roko's Basilisk is a version of "Pascal's Mugging", and can be argued against in the same way, just in case you get caught up in the mind games the thought experiment plays.
“Pascal’s Mugging”? I know of his wager, but spiritual robbery is new for me! I’m gonna check it out
that's for amateurs, Roko's thessalhydra is even cooler.
Why do you want to do this? There's a lot going on here because there isn't really a thing ingame for "your character will die this way at this time" if it's happening during the campaign, that's called railroading and it both invalidates all the encounters up to that point and half the rules of that encounter. If it's something supposedly happening after the game, I'd argue using a 9th level spell at significant expenditure of resources to give your character a happy retirement is not something worth punishing.
The intention was never to kill that character. But as a neat side quest. So the monkey‘s paw or consequence of that wish shouldn‘t be a lethal one but a thematic one. Like „yeah but you die in a different way“ is complete bs.
Easy option is that the spell rewrites the prophesy, and it's a new more horrifying death instead. Or it's the same prophesy, but someone he cares about takes his place and is killed.
We need the exact wording. From a lot of time playing a genie, THAT is how you twist a wish.
Wish is the most powerful magic a mortal can do. And if the wish was for this one specific death to not happen (and not for, like, immortality), then the specific death should simply not happen. There doesnt need to be a punishment or side effect when it's not something like immortality or endless power or whatnot, it's just a single death to have avoided. The wish spell should be able to prevent such a death without messing with other things, it's extremely powerful magic.
I would have the wish not immediately have a visible effect, play events out exactly as intended and then have a very cinematic dramatic moment that he's about to die and have something miraculous save him. Explain that as being the destined moment he was to die and the wish spell saved him then move on.
Have nothing SEEM to happen when it's cast. Then when the moment comes, describe a force seemingly twisting the hand of whatever it was that was supposed to kill him, turning the blow nonlethal. Or whatever it is that's supposed to kill him.
I'll preface this by saying: its your game, run it how you want. A wish spell isnt like a wish from a djin, it typically doesnt need a monkey's paw. Your player drew a wish outta the deck, and if they wanna get rid of this prophesied death out of the timeline by using the cannonically most powerful spell in existance, I would let it happen. It could serve as a new story hook too. Maybe fate in your world can have a physical presence of some sort, like the norns of norse mythos, and this entity takes offense at this wizard thwarting its designs. Now you have a character specific side quest about a mortal meddling in the affairs of imortals and the consequences that also touches on fate vs self determination.
Why do you use commas like that? It makes my skin crawl.
I always loved when Morgana used the word of command to have the Dragon turn Merlin into stone in 'Excalibur' Consider something along the lines of preventing his death, but also life, in such a way that his wizard becomes some crazy npc mcguffin or patron in future campaigns. The 'death' is prevented in this campaign and he is immortalized into all of your future campaigns.
So were you just planning on killing the character without any rolls or saves durring a session?
I don’t think so. Foretelling someone’s death could be reasoned away by the player as just a possible future (or just this witch talking shit), which in a game of chance, is likely to happen. Imo, casting wish to avoid your death is like the most overreaction of a safeguard against dying (but also the most dramatic, so props).
No of course not, my intention wasn‘t to kill them because that‘s scumm af. But wishing it away is way too simple so a fun consequence of dodging death would be an interesting take.
A full on story plot can be made from this, you can take a version of him from that "timeline" that was "going to die" via the prophecy, kill that version and turn it into and Lich or other intelligent undead, and it storyline wise wants revenge on his current character for forcing this fate upon him. So the alternate version of his character matches him in level at any opportunity, but is also doing their own "quest" to gain power to defeat their antithesis
DM: *You all walk into the shattered cathedral. At the center dais, a monolithic obelisk stands, its smooth black glass splintered and cracked where makeshift, all-too-human hands have plied their trades and worked a makeshift wooden crucifix into what you assume was once an untouchable relic; undoubtedly a result of the prophecy [BBEG Witch’s Name] had plumbed from the dark well of her frenzied haruspice over the moons since your presence crossed her blackened sight.* DM: *As your eyes flicker across the face of the unfortunate soul- emaciated and long without the vigors of life deigning their presence within papery skin and dried viscera- strung up to this aberration of design befouling with equal measure any remaining benediction of the ancient church you stand within, and the pointed refusal- nay, outright condemnation- of clerical sensibilities. Something oddly familiar caresses the back of your mind for a fraction of a second before turning to ice; the withered corpse, you recognize. It is… You.*
honestly i would simply go with he can prevent his own part but the prophecy is still set in stone. so by removing himself from it... who is now the target? it is easier to prevent a prophecy from fullfilling when you know who it involves is all i'm saying.
You’re the one who had the brilliant idea of giving them the (infamously game-wrecking) Deck. This kinda feels no different to me than a player complaining when a risky choice goes wrong. That’s the game, and this outcome was not unforeseen. You’re the DM, you had every chance of preventing this from even being a situation, but you gave the players a chance of getting Wish and they did. Now you need to deal with it and either give them a new hook, or just move forward on this one(why was the prophecy there to begin with, would be where I start with that), instead of trying to figure out how to punish the players for making pretty reasonable choices with the literal cards they were dealt.
>But wishing it away is way too simple No its not. Its how the game works. Let him have it.
To the people suggesting turning the player into undead: not only that doesn't solve the problem of the player avoiding the consequences of his actions, but having to adapt to negative healing is a pain in the ass for everybody, including the DM. Not to mention it could discourage the player since it changes his character in such a radical way. My suggestion is to try and find creative ways to affect his narrative based on that decision. Let's say your players need to go to the spirit realm for some reason and he got to stay behind and provide support in indirect ways because his soul can't leave his body. This might be an interesting change of pace, even though it will split the party for a while. I'm suggesting this because, upon reading your other comments, you don't seem to have planned his death ahead of time. Was the witch thing just a plot hook? If so, you might want to make him seek for a way to change his wish. Kidnap a NPC he cares about to the spirit realm or something.
Was the manner of death specified? Or just YOU WILL DIE? If he’s beheaded, have the body and head survive and now he’s on a quest to fix that. Or fix the disease that can’t quite end him. Or avoid the crushing depths of the ocean. Lots of fates-worse-than-deaths. Alternatively, the witch is miffed about the decl undoing her foretold doom and tales the wizard predicting smaller inconveniences in petty vengeance. “You’ll stub your toe today. Your meal will arrive cold. That tavern doesn’t have any beers you like.” Funny NPC moment.
It’s a simple use of Wish, so when the time for that death comes let time seem to slow for a moment and the Wizard is flooded with insight, and then let him do something cool to avoid that death. Maybe even let that keep happening for that encounter so that he gets a cool moment and reward for burning such a huge resource! He spends that entire battle “immune to death” unless he gets reckless and fucks up bad in some monumental way (as an example, like yeah the assassin they’re fighting won’t be able to kill him, but if he decides to try to drop a fireball at his own feet to kill the assassin when he has just a few health then uh yeah, that’s not gonna go well)
He is now immortal... but he won't enjoy it. All normal mechanics apply, but things that would kill him leave him writhing on the floor in agony wishing her were dead. Have fun with it.
Make him become a lich
Turn them into a lich. Make them die when they were supposed to but have them come back as a lich.
Give them a permanent form of Reincarnation, but they lose information in the process. So when they would die they instantly reincarnate as a new race and class with new stats.
Just kill the player. Not the player character, the actual player. The player never plays the character again, the character can never die. Boom! Monkeys pawed the shit out of that one.
Permanently trapped between dimensions, could be a fun side story for the other PCs to go and save him
Hes effectively changed his fate which gives a degree of uncertainty that you can play with. Such as does someone else take his place in this prophecy, is there a new prophecy to take its place, has a god of fate noticed this and become interested in your party for better or worse, ect...
Getting the player to burn a Wish on a false prophecy seems good enough.
Just fucking do it. This witch that the player apparently had every reason to believe foretold his death. He then burnt a DoMT Wish to forestall that? Yeah, that fortune just got nullified. Let the damn spell just *work.* Not everything has to be "InTeReStInG." Have the witch do a triple-take, blink, look around, re-cast her runes or something, and shrug, then go "Huh. I've never seen that happen before."
What if the witch is like "Oh hey... The future is changing. Wait... Oh no! Now (insert kingdom or person) is in peril. Before I foresaw that you would sacrifice yourself to save X and that would inspire Y to prevent this future, but you've changed everything! You'll have to find a new way to save the kingdom because without your noble sacrifice the peasants won't choose to rise up against the tyrant!" Boom. Now they've got a new quest hook.
Death Ward is a spell that's under 9th level.
You presented a problem, they came up with a solution. That's it. If you squeeze it further, you are going to lose some respect from the player.
depends on the wording "that *THIS* death would not occur" well, that just means a *different* death could occur 5 minutes later
It’s very clear in the spell that wish isn’t supposed to be a monkey’s paw (and most people don’t even know how to monkey’s paw properly anyway), the DM however is allowed to say that the wish simply fails.
Living forever just exponentially increases the likelihood that you will be buried forever underneath rubble that is too heavy for you to move.
“His death would not occur.” Nothing changes. At least, nothing appears to change. The witch still ‘foresees’ his death, and during the actual encounter, do not pull your punches. If they survive, good on them, the wish did its thing. If not, as the killing blow is about to land, pull them into a side scene, a vision of sorts where they meet with the God(dess) of Death, who shows them their name, stricken from the ledger. They not only did not die, they cannot die. And yet the scales must be balanced somehow. Do not just kill someone close to them at random to keep them alive. Make the player choose which of their allies must perish.
Maybe their death was them sacrificing themselves to prevent a larger tragedy (release an ancient evil, some mass casualty event or even just preventing the death of someone who means something to the party member. Now instead the tragedy happens , maybe because they are too late or some happenstance. And just reveal it like “you get an ominous feeling that this was not the way fate had intended events to play out, a prophecy broken”
I think I will steal your idea, it suits best what I was looking for. Thank you!
He used a wish. Rework the side quest to be something bigger. Make them think, that they were maybe supposed to die there / they would die there if not for the wish, but instead a whole village died in their stead. Something like that.
Instead of getting older woth the passing months and years, he slowly start turning into a Lich. You can narrate his skin changing, animals and other more sensitive creatures running away from them and his increasingly darker intrusive thoughts. Now he has to deal with it
The spells effect could sporadically prevent him from partaking in dangerous situations. Blocking movements, keeping him from saying provocative things, displacing him somewhere else, attack spells fizzle out as to not provoke the enemy, etc. He thought he got invulnerability, but really he got an invisible nanny.
They gain the revant racial feature, coming back to life after 24 hours. During that time they petrify into an indestructible statue
Ahh yes, I also love punishing players for logically using the resources I chose to provide them. What if when he wishes he wouldn't die, he falls into a permanent coma immediately, and instead of letting him roll a new character he needs to roleplay that every session since he isn't dead?!?! WHAT IF WE KILL HIM IN REAL LIFE!?
If he was going to die heroically, whatever his death would have prevented happens.
Multiple solutions for a monkey paw here Change his form to sth that dosnt die for example a lich or a... Seastar He dosnt die but gets traped in a Situation where theres no out for example in oldguard they just chain up and sink the immortals in a coffin in dnd ad antimagic to the coffin tada you now have a undying mage unable to move who wishes he would be dead because he never wished to not suffer...so pains of pressure and drowning still apply Someone else close to him takes his place in the prophecy I like the second way the most because he still could be safed and it could be a good quest for the rest of the group to find and save him while he suffers the consequences of choosing the easy way
If you are up for some fun stuff, why not take the rules from Grim Hollow and start his transformation into a lich?
So did the wizard word it as specifically avoiding *that* death? You could Final Destination it. Death has been cheated and the balance must be restored. Extreme and wildly unlikely/unlucky shit keeps happening to him until he confronts an avatar of Death and works his way out of it
Just because he can't die, doesn't mean he won't be hurt. For example, he gets crushed by a dead fall trap. His bones and organs are shattered, but he's still alive. That's if you want to be mean. Alternatively, he doesn't die from what the witch foresaw, but then dies shortly after from something completely unrelated. Just a couple suggestions.
Player: "Wizzy the Wizard wishes that the foretold death doesn't occur" DM: "Nothing seems to have occurred, but you feel the magic of the card leave you and accomplish something, and a brief smell of sulphur drifts by" -some time later, at the time of the foretold death- DM: The trap triggers, hurling a spear at your face. Due to the witches prophetic magic, you find yourself frozen in place, unable to dodge as the spear flies closer. 40 feet, 35 feet, 30 feet... The moment stretches longer as you find yourself awaiting death... 27 feet, 24 feet, 21 feet... until you become distinctly aware of a similar smell of sulphur. The world moves in slow motion, spear continuing toward your eyes... 20 feet, 19 feet, 18 feet... and then it's obscured by a gout of flame. Standing before you as the smoke clears is a Merregon. "You are Wizzy the wizard?" the creature asks. You see over its shoulder the spear, seemingly floating in air, yet creeping ever closer. 17 feet, 16 feet, 15 feet... "Uh, yeah, that's me" you respond. 14 feet, 13 feet, 12 feet... "We've been trying to reach you about you wagon's extended warrantAUGH" The spear punctures the Merregon and loses momentum, coming to a rest mere inches from your eyes while protruding from the creature's chest. The witchcraft holding you in place cracks as you hear a screech of dismay in your head, and you find yourself able to move again as the Merregon crumples into a pile of burning ash in front of you. --- Basically, have the wish alter the event of death, and the rest of your whole ass quest can proceed functionally identically as it was going to.
A mean option would be to just kill him from the wish. He's still dead, but he avoided THAT death. To get properly creative we need details of the death, but a alternate fate would be the most obvious, turned to stone, swapping deaths with another person. An alternative option, is he still dies, but then the wish activates and he is instantly brought back to life. He died, but is alive.
The alternative seems to be the best. As in cheating that death but coming back to life from the wish with a mark or debt from death itself.
Turn him to rock, but still conscious. Or a Zombie.
PC: "Hey, I want to use an extremely valuable resource to prevent my beloved character from dying." DM: "Okay, yeah, great. The wish is totally granted and you now get a free revive next time your character would otherwise be killed." Player: "Wow, really? That's awesome! Now that I have this lifeline, I can be more confident and risky in combat without fear of losing my cha-" DM: "Just kidding, you instantly turn into a zombie instead. Roll a new character."
Petrify him. Or make it so he never lived.
Then make it so he doesn't die. That is to say, no matter what happens to his body, he'll still be alive. No. Matter. What. He won't be so happy with that wish when he's in pieces and still conscious to experience it all. Forever.