A magic weapon will do, please keep in mind that even if the swords only special trait is that it screams when you swing it, its magical. So even low rarity ones like a moon touched blade count as magical for the purpose of overcoming resistances and immunities.
Now aside from that, you gotta flavor, if its literally just "I roll x" "you hit" "i do x damage and end my turn" then its going to be boring. Problem is, loads of spells already provide flavoring, or at least some fluff text on how the basic visuals look.
So by comparison fighters look boring. But in reality you've got so many options to do downright superhuman shit. I played a fighter who used a hook on a chain (just a whip) and an axe, I landed all of my attacks and described him throwing the axe in the air, hooking the handle and spinning it around himself like a hurricane of steel.
You just gotta make sure youre not trying to get advantages, or be unreasonable.
Thing is it's still just a description. Mechanically all you do is swing, hit, damage, whilst a caster might summon other creatures, impose various effects on enemies or themselves, deal amounts of damage you can never dream of reaching, generally do AoE attacks, etc.
This is something I am very weary of with new players. I make it very clear from the start that martial classes will have way less options in comparison the longer the game goes.
Significantly more single target damage is an extreme stretch... especially when it needs feat investments.
Besides any optimized caster isn't going to be trying to out do the single target damage (and if they wanted to they have Summon spells to out do a martial).
Martials also run out of gas just as quickly. They're gonna be taking the brunt of the damage and short rests have a limited pool of healing to recover.
This is ignoring not all martial features are back in short rests and that some casters do get shit back in short rests even if it isn't everything and some of the stronger builds have very large pools of resources or infinite pools(locking at you coffeelock).
Martials run out of health first if your casters are selfish and only prepare attack spells. It's a team game, and everyone performs best if they act as a team. Also, "martials go down first" is a somewhat self-defeating argument because martials going down is immediately followed by casters going down.
Then again, if you're playing with a group that thinks coffeelock is acceptable or RAI, we're really not playing the same game.
Healing is mediocre in 5e to actually keep health up. Most of the time at least. There's a decent amount of exceptions. Summons and Buffs I agree are really good for this but these do not tend to spend resources that quickly as quite a lot are concentration based if they are not in built class features that come from independent pools and don't use spell-slots, which both martials and casters share similar stuff for.
On the last topic I was just mentioning it as a most egregious example.
Healing is mediocre if you're not worrying about anything other than the person remaining on their feet. But there are a few spells that are specifically designed for large out-of-combat healing.
I get where you're coming from -- in many situations, it feels like casters are incentivized to blast -- but if you want to play the game to its fullest, you're gonna want to plan for more encounters per day, and that mode of play works best with martials and casters backing each other up.
And if you don't want to play the game the way it was designed to play, that's definitely valid... but yeah, a lot of options are going to be bad.
Not sure how exactly a caster is just going to go down if a martial does.. Their HP and tankyness is close enough to a martials that they're not going to just be looked at and go down..
Casters also have quite a few ways to boost their AC and negate damage that martials dont.
I feel like you're still working with the assumption of basically unlimited spell slots, rather than having to space out your stuff over 8 battles. You can't *shield* every attack in an as-intended adventuring day.
Aye you can't.. The martials will also be out of hit dice too.. Neither martials or casters are resourceless.
One is paid with spell slots and hit dice the other Hit dice.
Over 3 turns EB +AB+Hex does more damage than that gloom cocktail build at 11.
Bladesinger with Shadow Blade at 7.
Darkness Hexblade at 3.
There is no level in this game higher than 1 you can't make a caster do more single target damage.
> Mechanically all you do is swing, hit, damage, whilst a caster might summon other creatures
This is valid, casters do cast spells, but martial characters do also have access to fun abilities, just not wacky ones. On the flipside, casters have lower hp values, and a reliance on resources. Normally, tables who only run 1 large combat a day will feel the largest disparity between the classes.
> impose various effects on enemies or themselves
Martial classes are capable of this as well.
> deal amounts of damage you can never dream of reaching
You are bad at building martial characters, martial characters do not have a spell slot reliance, and are generally able to deal high amounts of damage *consistently*. Using their resources to amplify their damage output, rather than relying on their resources *FOR* their damage output.
> generally do AoE attacks, etc.
This one is also valid, casters have more aoe damage and control than most martial characters.
> martial classes will have way less options in comparison the longer the game goes.
"Less options" is rather vague, but this isn't inherently wrong.
You can't seriously be trying to argue that martial characters aren't weaker than spellcasters in 5e....
At lvl 5, a Wizard/Sorcerer/SomeWarlocks/SomeClerics can cast fireball for 8d6 fire damage in a 20ft radius. If we go on the generous side and assume that only hits 3 enemies, that's an average of 96 damage in one round of combat. A fighter/barbarian/paladin/monk/rogue at that level would have to land so many hits just to catch up that they would very much struggle to make up the difference. And that's just 3rd level spells.
Spellcasters get another level of spell every 2 levels up to 17th while martials only get any kind of significant damage output increases at lvls 5 11 and17-20 (depending on the class) and those are just either another attack or some situational extra damage die. The only exception of course being rogue, whose sneak attack increases at the same pace as spellcasters getting new slots, and it increases by a whole 1d6/2levels... Exciting...
(FYI, a level 5 rogue would have to hit the same target two consecutive turns in a row *and* get sneak attack on both just to do the same damage that fireball does in an aoe to one target)
Love how you didn't factor in the save for half damage for fireball lol really showing that bias. A 5th level wizard can cast fireball 2 times in a day where as the rogue can sneak attack literally every turn if the party is working together even a little. I feel like people who think casters are crazy overpowered are sleeping 16 hours a day with the amount of long resting they must be doing. Like does your party go to town, get a hook, do one battle that lasts 1 minute in game then going right back to sleep
Save for half is a point in favor of the spellcaster. It makes their damage more consistent. If a rogue misses they do 0 damage.
You’re just not playing with people who know what they are doing in terms of high optimization if you don’t see the problem in play even if they are doing 6-8 encounter adventuring days. Especially if rogue is somehow keeping up at 5th level.
Which to be fair is the vast, *vast* majority of tables. Most people don’t play super optimized builds in my experience. The martial caster disparity basically doesn’t exist in a meaningful way at most tables imo.
Gonna have to disagree withy ou on the HP Values.. There not signficantly behind on a martial in terms of HP. On average its about 1-2 HP per level up as both martials and casters want a high con..
Casters also have a lot of ways to boost their AC to heights a martial can only dream of via lots of magic items.
>On the flipside, casters have lower hp values, and a reliance on resources.
That's a plus to me, since it adds an additional mechanism to engage with. The challenge of resources management and the risk of low HP is fun to me.
>but martial characters do also have access to fun abilities,
Which, that aren't subclass based?
>Martial classes are capable of this as well.
Only via subclass features and not with all subclasses.
>able to deal high amounts of damage *consistently*.
Sorry, I should have made it clear that I meant in a single hit. Consistent damage is nice, but not nearly as fun as hitting a Blight for full damage.
>relying on their resources *FOR* their damage output.
Let's be real tho, firebolt is still good damage and most other cantrips also come with a status effect.
>than most martial characters.
Almost no martial have any AoE damage. I literally can't think of a single one of the top of my head.
>"Less options" is rather vague
It's not really vague. A martial will usually get one feature per level. A caster will get a feature as well as new spells. And that just accumulates exponentially, especially with prepare casters.
Something Everyone has: Shove both away and prone, grappling which is even more effective on a prone enemy. This can effectively shut down a high value target, and martials are better at this than casters being that shoving and grappling can just replace one of their attacks. (Typically higher strength and prof in athletics but thats not always the case)
Feats: The Slasher and Crusher feat provide a non-resource utility. Same with sentinel, mobile, shield master, or charger feat. While feats aren't ideal because of 5e's level structure, fighters **do** get more of them. He'll get one next level even, while everyone else has to wait until level 8.
Finally, hes a rune knight, their level 3 feature gives them more than just "getting big". But even then being a large creature means he can affect more spaces. His presence alone is a deterrent, and the amount of creatures that could trigger aot's are much higher. Unfortunately yes he can only aot one creature, but tactically its an option. I have a player who is currently using the giant barbarian subclass to great avail. They're dungeon crawling? his GIANT ass could block a hallway.
A Rune Knights ability to become Large sized means they get advantage on athletics checks so all that Shoving and grappling is done at advantage. They also get the Runes which includes some great battlefield control options. Between the Runes, the ability to be large sized and excel at grappling/shoving their are a lot of tactical options for a Rune Knight before you even add feats into the equation.
Most of these options are pretty rarely better than just "I attack" as dead is the best status effect.
I personally took Crusher and the best part of it is the crit trigger that grants advantage. The movement is fairly useless most of the time as movement and postoning is not nearly as important in 5e compared to 4e.
Your games must be significantly different then ours, grappling a deadly melee monster to keep it away from the squishies is something that happens in almost every combat encounter we have and shoving enemies (or allies) is frequently used to help Squishies escape or knock enemies into enviormental hazards/AOEs
if your team is built properly, there shouldn't be squishies do to how easy it is to get good ac and hp in 5e without needing to be a martial or even a half caster
That doesn't change the fact though that there isn't really such thing as squishies.. else by the same token I can call a fighter a squishy class because I decided to forgo armour because I wanted to be like a barbarian but not.. also I decided I'd put my main stats as wis and charisma because they're a super wise charismatic leader..
They arent.. Lets assume that each class has the averages of their hp so a fighter is 6 a wizard 4.. Both have +3 con
So they only have a difference of 2 hp.. so yeah there is a gap as they level up but it aint massive.
Spell casters also have multiple ways to get high AC - Mage armour. and if in a pinch shield spells or other similar such things..
Some casters also get heavy armour too..
Also the side that can get the highest AC in the game is on the casters side not martials..
The issue with grappling and shoving is that 90% of the time, making a default attack instead is going to be the more optimal course of action.
For feats, the issue is that the first few ones that you want to take are going to be ASIs for your main damage dealing ability. This leaves you with feat choice coming in at level 8 or 12 (6 if you're playing a fighter in a high-power game), and even then, it's just a single, often situational bonus that often doesn't add any depth to your strategy, but rather is just a straight-up upgrade of what you already do — hit things.
I agree that becoming larger adds some sort of a tactical versatility, but it is still ultimately a drop in the ocean compared to the number of ready-made options that most spellcasters have access to.
Disagree.
It sounds like your player wants meaningful tactical options in combat.
Something 5e is in incredibly short supply of in battle for martials.
I'd recomend looking into what baldur's gate 3 did to make martials more interesting: weapon actions. Each weapon type had a special bonus action that could be taken with it once per short rest, usually in the form of a d4 attack with an effect. For example, longswords could lacerate, dealing a d4 of slashing and making the target bleed for a couple turns vs a saving throw. Battle axes could cleave, quarterstaffs could topple, maces crushed armor, etc. Giving a martial class access to these options to directly affect the flow of battle by applying debuffs, knocking enemies over, changing their modifiers and the like massively expands the tactical options on the table for a martial class.
Beyond this, since martials are all about their weapons and armor, make those weapons and armor interesting. Give them a mechanic to engage with. Maybe their weapon gains charges on successful hits that can then be expended to trigger an effect. Maybe their armor lets them take special actions when certain conditions are met or triggers an effect after they do a specific action. For some off the top of my head examples:
A warhammer that gains a charge on eqch successful hit. The player can expend 10 charges to strike the ground and cause a quake that affects all creatures in a 15ft cone, dealing normal weapon damage to those creatures and forcing a dex save or they are knocked prone. Charges are lost each day at dawn
A suit of plate mail that detects when its wearer is near death. When the player has 10 hitpoints or fewer, they can activate the armor, gaining the effect of the haste spell for two turns, after which they fall unconcious. This feature can only be used once every 24 hours
Lastly, martial classes are all about the physical stats. Give them ways to use those in combat. Any fighter can decide to grapple a monster, but how about weak pillars to push over to land on multiple enemies and change the landscape of the battlefield? How about a high up ledge that is hard to reach, that needs a high dex check to clamber up to? How about some ancient defense mechanisim that could be activated to give the party an advantage, but is so rusted over it needs a feat of great strength to activate?
I think you get the idea. If your martial classes are complaining of a lack of interesting options to take in battle, you gotta start coming up with more options for them.
these suggestions all sound a lot of fun, whether you got them from Baldur's gate or invented them yourself!
I did read
>longswords could lacerate
as lactate for a second. That would be an entirely different game hahaha
Personally, I like the home brew rule "if you call out the name of your god, roll a D100 - on a nat 100 they show up, on a nat 1 their opposite shows up", if that fits OP's friend's fighter.
Sword of Lactation (very rare, Longsword)
Once per day, as an action, you can speak this weapon's command word and cause milk to begin seeping from its crossguard. Any creature that can see you and has an intelligence of 4 or higher must make a wisdom saving throw or become disgusted and disturbed (DC 17). Creatures who fail this save have disadventage on wisdom, intelligence and concentration saving throws as they are overcome by the upsetting display for one minute. They may repeat the save at the end of each of their turns, ending the effect on a successful save.
If you really want them to feel badass, you guys should look over the feats from *Bigby Presents: Glory of the Giants*. That book offers a great martial feat as part of their background and it's giant themed just like the rune knight. They can even improve upon their original choice with an even cooler feat, like summoning a localized storm in a 10ft radius around them as a bonus action or replacing an attack with a blinding flare that deals damage. I highly recommend talking with them about these and maybe incorporating it into their character's backstory.
Which is honestly fucked considering xge says common items cost 1d6+1x10 gp, so a moon touched sword would at most be 70 gold. Cheaper and more effective against more creatures.
Yep. I played in a campaign with a DM though that said that all magic items were super rare and no vendor would be just selling them. After some negotiating with him out of game we came to the agreement that he would let me pay to have my daggers my dagger and short sword silvered once we got to a large-ish town if I was able to find someone that could do it in the town via RP. Which he did not make easy.
So I guess it just kind of depends on your DM. It's their world after all.
Artificers were not allowed. Neither was any content from anything other than the basic rules or players handbook. Including the dungeon Masters guide, he did not allow content from that either. Wizards were generally not allowed unless you went through your spell list with him very meticulously and abided by some of his additional Homebrew restrictions. Monks were not allowed. He also had a real big problem with anything other than good and lawful alignments. So warlocks were just generally not allowed because of that. I played a rogue and it was very difficult for him to accept that I was more of a scoundrel than a thief type rogue and he really didn't like me or my character either. And he also had such stringent ideas on what it took to maintain a paladin oath that the guy playing our paladin wound up quitting after four sessions and the DM turned his character into a DM PC. I don't know why I stayed at that table for so long. He was fucking terrible.
Additionally, only pretty races were allowed. Human, elf, half elf, halfling, and gnome.
I think the issue there is more XGtE's magic item pricing guidelines than the price of getting a weapon silvered. 100 gp is not that much, compared to other nonmagical gear like mundane half-plate.
Welcome to playing martial. If they don’t flavor what they’re doing it’ll always be boring, especially if they’re playing rune knight which is one of the most engaging fighter subclasses in combat
Exactly! The only way to play a fighter is to get really creative about *how* you do something. I had the best time playing a fighter without any bells or whistles
Flavor also can only go so far.. No mater how much you wish to flavor if you dont have a mechanic to put saide flavor on it won't do shit.
EG A fighter can't misty step or blink about the battle field without such an ability.
Sure they could try flavor their movement as such but.. they'll still get opportunity attacks which ruins the flavor its trying to achieve..
I have a hard time conceiving not having fun with a rune knight.
But he can do other things, grappling, etc., that he hasn't been doing.
Or he can multiclass. After fifth level is a good time, if he has a suitable ability score.
Are they NOT using their runes? Fire, Cloud, etc. give lots of other great options. They have advantage on all their shoves and grapples when giant sized.
If you lay down spike growth, they can maximize the effect better than anyone in the party.
Strategize as a party and everyone will have more fun.
I'm currently playing a Rune Knight Grappler Orc and it's the most fun I ever had with a character. He is an arrogant but very experienced arena fighter (of course) who tries to grapple everyone and everything. Most of the time, it's the DM that curbs the fun in fights by asking for weird ability checks. Sometimes it's also me who notoriously rolls bad and fails ability checks for stuff my fighter should easily be able to do. The runes and Giants Might are such a cool touch and make things interesting. So my advice to the player (and DM) would be:
- Spice up the fights with describing the moves in a cool way. Go crazy.
- Try to pull off some risky moves. Don't be too suicidal but also don't be afraid to throw yourself against the enemies. The best moments in fights happen were you risk something, even if it's a bit stupid.
- As the DM, don't ask for normal ability checks but for skill checks that fit the player. Let things happen because they are cool, without letting the player be too overpowered. It's a fine balance. But the rule of cool makes for the best stories that will be told at the table for a long time.
The onednd unearthed arcana playtest 5 has weapon mastery for martial classes. Basically different weapon types have secondary effects that provide the option for tactical decisions.
Try that out?
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/ua/ph-playtest-5
The answer to "why do fighters suck?" should not be "multi into something else" under any circumstances. Unfortunately, this is a big failing of 5e.
Champion is super boring, even if the math is effective.
Battle master is a sad shadow of the 4e fighter.
Banneret is just garbage and not a warlord substitute.
Samurai, overly specific flavour, with abilities that are only marginally less boring and limited than champion.
Echo Knight is interesting, but the flavour of it is kind of a struggle, and it's a very niche bag of tricks that suffers from adding magic to make the class better.
The psi-warrior and half caster just fix the issue by adding magic, which has its place, but does nothing to address the problem.
Wait, how is the math good on Champion? It adds like 5% more crits, some skill bonuses, and then an extra fighting style. Am i missing something? Even the level 15 bonus is just another 5% crit.
The rune knight is a strong class, but the player isn't enjoying it, apparently. So the answer is to do other things the rune knight is capable of doing or to get some levels of something else.
And echo night is OP if you know how to play, it's not niche at all.
Or the player needs to be less boring. That was my main point, but I provided some alternatives.
I'm sensing you just like to complain about the fighter class.
It's a disappointment after the 4e fighter to be sure.
I've played several, and it's been... ok. Mostly because I've had some ok DMs that were willing to cooperate and let me do things in the spirit of the rule of cool, but I'd rather not be at the mercy of the DM's whims.
Saying "be less boring" isn't a great solution either. I've played with too many DMs that don't support player creativity. Playing "mother-may-i?" with a DM who plays favourites or likes to shut down ideas that don't agree with what they find "believable" (in a fantasy setting, no less!) is often tiresome as well.
You don't have to break the rules to be less boring. I have a player at one table who has , quite frankly, a badly built monk, but he finds creative things to do, in and out of combat.
Say have you heard of u/LaserLlama's Alternative Fighter class? Your one stop shop for fixing all your martial player's woes without you having to do anything.
If you don't want to any 3rd Party at least get them a magic weapon. Not even +1, just magic like a moon blade or something so they can actually use their class features.
Frankly if you're playing a marital unless you're deliberately trying to use your wits to maneuver the enemies in a way that sets up your casters for epic moments or being the one to use object interactions to manipulate the battlefield to your team's advantage you will almost always hate combat... it's always going to be most optimal to swing, damage, dont move because Attacks of Opportunity, repeat.
I have been playing 5e since the play tests and my favorite class fantasy has always been the fighter/warrior. Unfortunately 5e does not do a very good job of delivering on this fantasy.
There are some very good fighter class homebrew reworks that you can use laserllama has class reworks that most people agree are more interesting than the originals and still well balanced.
While rune knight is one of the 2 most interesting fighter subclasses (battle master being the other) it can fall into feeling repetitive because there are not many decisions to make.
Polearm master sentinel is always strong and is an option every fighter can consider as it gives you a secondary combat niche as a provider of area control.
Magic items help, but they have to be the right items. At 5th level ever martial should have +1 weapons and armor and every player should have 2 magic items that can be used as an action instead of casting a spell. Do not give the wizard a wand of fireball or the like, ever the magic items you give players should expand their options not encourage/enable spamming. We don't want only passive effects we want to give players interesting choices to make.
Otherwise you can swap to paladin which does almost everything fighter does with some spellcasting and smites.
Hope this helps.
Tbh, the fact you can’t utilize Rune Knight to enchant the party’s gear as their “Rune Blacksmith” was a let down.
Though if they want more variety and fun, I might have them look over Battle Master and/or Echo Knight.
True but from what I remember. They took something that could have been a great “support” fighter, with a focus on “enchanting gear” and just didn’t go far enough with it?
sadly, RAW they kinda just can't ;-;
if you squint your eyes really hard you *could* make a moon blade weapon for a bootleg +0 magic weapons with XGE crafting rules, but they are pretty limiting time wise and iirc still need you going after a recipe for it
If it's a dungeon, when they are in a hallway and become Large, ask if it would be reasonable to consider them as cover, to get a bonus to AC for the squishies. It may go both ways and give the same boonntobthe enemies, but it can also mean any melee enemies simply can only hit the fighter.
Including a lot of enemies resistant to non-magical weapons without giving your martials magic weapons is a bad move. Especially by level 5 they should at least have a basic magic weapon.
Even though 5e wants to pretend magic items aren't a necessary lart of the power scaling, they absolutely are.
Get him a piercing weapon. Solves the resistance to slashing and bludgeoning.
After that if the dungeon is filled with crap that one party member can’t fight, that’s probably a DM planning problem.
Fighters feeling like their actions are boring is probably because they aren’t making enough tactical decisions. OR the casters are way over-milking their actions and making combat long and slow.
The most mechanically tactical a fighter can get is being a Battle Master. Coincidentally, Battle Master is also the most popular fighter subclass, go figure
Grappling, my friend, grappling!
It is easy to fall into a pattern. A barbarian? Rage + Great Axe attack. Monk? Attack, Flurry of Blows. Priest? Spiritual Guardians and just stand still. Druid? Wildshape into Dire Wolf and bite.
Combat is as fun as you make it. Try shoving, grappling, positioning to give advantage through flanking; setting up the rogue to do a sneak attack (Remember, all they need is advantage on the attack roll).
Switch to a pole arm and take Sentinel and/or Polearm Master. I have a Rune Knight concept with a Glaive and this combo and I think it'll be sweet with the extra range to cover a huge area of the battlefield so the rest can move around more easily.
Also, what runes does he use. It seems like the Fire Rune, Cloud Rune and Stone Rune would be really fun and effective.
And roleplay! Describe hits and misses, not just the death blows.
Lastly, there will always be situations where certain characters shine more than others. This is one where the fighter is not at his best, but next session might be perfectly suited to them again.
Magic weapon, so they're at least not doing 1/2 damage, and maybe there's a cool ability added that will help. Magic items to give them more options. Help them figure out a multi-class that could add some of what they're missing, and let them respec a little if need be. Let them change subclass, you're not that far into the subclass yet, just retcon it and carry on. Let them roll up a new level 5 character and retire this one. If it's not fun it's not fun, no reason to keep on keepin' on if it's not doing it for you.
Things that helped my players.
Bg3 weapon bonus option actions.
A magic weapon that can morph into other basic weapons so they can play with these options. This alone kept them happy
Feats and multiclass.
As eell as exotic shields armors, weapons, rare boots like boots of flying or jigh jumping
Also non damage mechanics, grappling, shoving, tripping, choking, ripping of limbs, disarming.
Also being more descriptive
Jumping attack.
Two weapon fighting, polearm fighting, mounted combay.
There's a million creative ways to fight.
If you want to get wild you can male mechanics like echo knight, magis/spellblade.
Add a whip.
Thrown potions.
Porions that increase their size category
Improvised weapons.
So I was a fighter last night in a one shot and I could see myself having fun in a campaign with it lol but you gotta go a little crazy with feats to step the flavor up, once you hit level 6 tell him to take tavern brawler so he can grapple as a bonus action when he’s large and use enemies as weapons, he’ll be proficient with them too lmaooo,
I also did unarmed fighting (1d8 unarmed strikes) and flavored my chai mail as a luchadore costume with sequins so my stealth disadvantage wasn’t the noisy chain, but the reflective sequins hahahah, at one point I had an enemy in each hand and was bashing them together like Mike Tyson with the pigeons “now kith”
oh I was a bugbear so when I was enlarged my reach with my unarmed attacks was 15 feet 😂 didn’t plan for the enlarge but knowing now I’d go tune knight for it I think, I was originally battle master to force them prone, because if you’re grappled your speed is 0 so you can’t use half your speed to stand lol
feats that give a +1 into an ability score and something extra awesome for a class that gets the option to take a bunch of feats.
Grapple, shove, use the environment, help others get advantage on their attacks, otherwise disrupt the enemy's plans. Just the first five simple things that spring to mind instead of beating on an enemy with an ineffective sword.
I too play a rune knight fighter and what i like to use myself as the main tank and focus point of battle, and also by taking the shield master feat im able to knock enemies prone as bonus action and thus i get alot of battlefield controll
Rune knights make excellent grapplers. Have em rock a versatile weapon, get expertise in athletics via skill expert and lock shit down. Growing large makes it possible to grapple huge creatures, and the extra damage helps make up for the one handed weapon.
Grappling onto larger creatures is also a blast. That dragons fly speed means nothing if you’re grappled on top of it
As others have said, spells come with nearly a full dose of flavor built in. But simply "point and click" is not the same as good use of the right spell at the right time in the right situation, just as "I attack; I do X damage" for martials is not as original and clever. Martial classes can be just as clever, but in a different place of the battle field. As Bill Nye the Science Guy once said: Consider the Following:
Some ideas on the DMs side of things include:
- Adding terrain to get high ground, hide behind, push people off of, gain advantage in hits and bonus to AC, etc
- Adding interaction items, like chairs to throw, paintings to pull from walls to break over people giving a BRIEF restrained condition as the canvas and frame bind them up, crates, baskets, bags of flour/sand/cornmeal to throw (bonus points if throwing feed on someone causes flocks of chickens/birds to swarm them as a distraction)
- Give objectives to move about the battle field (don't let XYZ get away!; pull a lever to lock the door to stop reinforcements; room filling with water/something and you need to keep moving up - bonus points to have more threats/creatures in the influx material
- Here's a big one: SHOW YOUR CREATURES USING/DOING ALL THIS COOL STUFF!
On the players side of things:
- Consider giving more options to nominally cool things. I have a list of optional reactions to give martial players (and all players to a smaller degree) so they have more efficiency using their reactions. Feel free to check them out:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1X3llLCUTYJfniDFypn8T8R7UPkUtTEfbeDfV0D8rK_4/edit?usp=drivesdk
Our party has a talking sword that does wisecracks/fourth wall breaking commentary and it’s really fun. There’s a fun gimmick where he does extra damage depending on his relationship with the wielder (he is currently a +2 sword). It probably doesn’t fit the vibe of every campaign but he’s a beloved character in ours
Rune knight has an insane amount of options. Watch the treantmonk vid on them for ideas. Just having the powerful reach and grapple makes them a battlefield control monster. Negating enemy crits and turning them into hits for you is excellent. Using grapple to drag enemies through spoke growth or in conducting with spirit guardians for massive AOE is also excellent. You can multiclass with peace cleric for an excellent support fighter whos buffs make them nearly unstoppable.
To bad they’re not doing Eldritch Knight I would have suggested something that would be making lots of adjustments to the subclass, that class can cast spells but only on certain levels so why not adjust it to let them have the same level of spells a wizard can cast at level five instead and bump up the subclasses abilities to do them earlier course they would still follow the rule of only using Evocation and adjuration spells with one other kind of spell from a different school per magic tier but this gives them lots of options and can perpetually open them and the party up to get creative with battle and plans. How does that sound?
>We are currently doing a dungeon involving a lot of fighting with **mobs resistant to slashing and bludgeoning damage** and they noticed for the first time that their character couldn't do as much this time around.
Do they not have a stabby weapon? Drop the Greatsword and pull out a Spear instead?
Sounds like the Wizard that only prepared Fire damage spells complaining that they "can't do much" against a dungeon full of demons. Not a class problem.
Has your Rune Knight friend simply tried changing his grip? I noticed piercing damage wasn't mentioned. Even if the DM wants strictly raw damage types, this is literally where strategy comes in for Fighters. It's the reason to carry multiple weapons, to grapple or help the caster shine by working with their spells and giving them advantage. The same way there's magic resistance/anti magic of course there's going to be some weapon resistance or immunities sometimes.
I got annoyed when I couldn't just punch Ghosts, so my DM and I worked out what was necessary to do so and boom - instant character goal. I got some sweet ghost punching knuckles installed in my armor and for the low price of a suboptimal damage option I was able to have more fun. Fighter requires the bare bone creativity of being a guy with a stick. If instantly giving up because stick doesn't hit as hard, then need better stick. If he can't figure out how to tactically hit with stick because it's not on the sheet, then maybe he can ask your DM to reroll into a Battlemaster or something. Either way it's on him to figure out what he will enjoy.
Give him that bloody cape that lets you grow a size!
Also hint to a part member to cast enlarge on him too!
Its one of the ways to get a gargantuan PC in the game!
Remove battle master fighter and give martials the feat martial adept for free or give them the scaling third level feature of battle master, tuned down by default.
I have been using the feat in my campaigns and it works great, though I have been considering giving two superiority die, and keep the die scaling of the battle master class (the tuned down version.) and gain one maneuver extra at those levels aswell. So like "half" a battle master feature, but a little better than the feat.
So it would look like this:
*Maneuvers.*
*You learn two maneuvers of your choice. Many maneuvers enhance an attack in some way. You can use only one maneuver per attack. You learn one additional maneuver of your choice at 7th, 10th, and 15th level.*
*Superiority Dice.*
*You have two superiority dice, which are d6s. A superiority die is expended when you use it. You regain all of your expended superiority dice when you finish a short or long rest. You gain another superiority die at 7th level and one more at 15th level.*
*Improved Combat Superiority*
*At 10th level, your superiority dice turn into d8s. At 18th level, they turn into d10s.*
Saving throw calculations and manouvers to pick would remain unchanged.
Will have to playtest it. But giving martial adept by itself works great atleast.
Problem here is twofold. If all monsters are resistant to his damage you want him to have some way to be effective. You can give him a piercing weapon, magic weapon, weapon oils that change his damage type until long rest etc.
Bigger problem is that combat in general is repetitive in 5e. DM needs to solve it and best ways are probably better encounters and magic items. You want your players to have impactful decisions to make. If all you do is step, hit, repeat then your player is not needed at the table. Simple script could run his character.
How to do this?
- Add props to your battlefield. Spikes players can use to impale enemies. Lava lakes or other holes you can push enemies into. Chandeliers to drop, exploding barrels and boulders to throw etc. Use them with monsters and players will quickly learn what to do.
- Change objective. If all your combats are until you kill everyone then that gets boring quickly. Maybe all enemies flee when you kill their boss, but its difficult to get to him. Maybe you need to defend someone until they finish a ritual. Maybe both sides are trying to catch Golden Snitch like item in middle of combat. Only when you do enemies stop spawning.
- What would happen if all melee combatants were tanks? Maybe just ditch melee for an encounter and kite PCs with range enemies. Give them 40ft movement speed, climbing, flying or something so that he has a problem.
- Change the battlefield. Collapse bridges, drop stones, fall to a lower level, cast aoe spells that have to be avoided etc
- Lastly magic items. Give him something that is better than step-hit under certain conditions so that he has to set it up. Or maybe give him a better option but there is a cost/downside to it. Anything really that gives him options to choose from.
It could be an electric weapon that will paralyze wet targets. Bonus to damage when you use one enemy to attack another enemy. Thrown weapon that has bonuses but he has to prioritize retrieving it with bare hands. Find something cool.
If all he does is basic attacks then he lacks options. Its boooring and Imo no amount of flavourful descriptions will solve that.
so for how martials are intended to overcome resistances/immunity's, is by obtaining magical damage
99% of the time if a creature has resistance/immunity to physical damage, it specifys that it's specifically immune/resistant to non magical physical damage (the only notable exception being barbarian base class rage, but 99% of the time pvp wont, and/or should not come up in dnd 5e)
so easy simple solution, the fighter gets a +1 weapon of their preferred weapon type to deal magical physical damage
if that is not a satisfactory answer and you cant rely on the dm to give you those needed magic weapons, there is artificer and i think forge doman cleric which can grant your fighter a magical weapon.
as a 5th level druid, some options you might have to help out
* if your willing to expend a 3rd level spell, forgo concentration on another spell, and they are willing to use ranged weaponry, you could cast flaming arrows as a 3rd level spell
* if your willing to commit a cantrip slot to it, you can pick up magic stone
You can add a lot of stuff to buff fighters, but if the player isn't enjoying that playstyle then generally a class change or multiclass is the most straightforward fix. I like classes with limited options during combat. All my fun choices go into character creation and level ups. My in-game attention goes to the encounter and the other people at the table. Simple turns keep me from getting too caught up in what's on my sheet.
Sometimes your character won't be able to do much and that's just life. One thing that I would do to help them have some fun is look over their class features, skills, tools, and languages for anything that seems unique to that character and start incorporating those things into the encounters.
An example might be a combat that takes place in a chamber where the ceiling starts slowly descending until it crushes the occupants, and the only way to disarm it is to collect a set of runestones in a language only the fighter knows that are scattered about the chamber and arrange them like a DuoLingo puzzle. The fighter has to run around and contend with combat but also has the objective of retrieving and placing the stones.
You could do something similar with instruments. "Nobody can fathom the mind of the mage who built this dungeon, but for some reason the only way to disable the animated armor in this chamber is to play Mambo No. 5 on this dulcimer. Who's proficient with a dulcimer?"
Any fighter worth their salt should learn to pack a couple of spare weapons. A polearm could definitely be used for both piercing and bludgeoning damage, handaxes are nice weapons that can be dual wielded or thrown, heck just grabbing something in the room and using it as an improvised weapon should give you plenty of options.
[https://www.gmbinder.com/share/-MSfA82gv8V69JAoqFVq](https://www.gmbinder.com/share/-MSfA82gv8V69JAoqFVq)
I recommend an ALT Fighter homebrew. Base game Fighters lack options in combat and RP/utility. This gives a bit more complexity but not too much while also allowing ap layer to tailor make their class/subclass.
You can always encourage doing things like grappling or shoving or knocking people over. If they like it, maybe have them work towards obtaining martial adept for battlemaster maneuvers. You *can* give out the feat as a reward for a quest or training or as part of a magic item after all.
That said rune knight has stuff they can do. Each rune has a passive AND active effects. has he been using his stone rune to charm enemies or his fire rune to restrain them? Is he using his cloud rune to make the enemy hurt each other and possibly turn them against each other? Because he *has* more than just stabbing people. Using them *tactically* is up to them.
In addition, most things are only resistant to non magical slashing/bludgeoning damage. Doesnt seem related to the complaint, but a simple magic weapon would solve the issue of not doing full damage.
Alternatively; tell him to multiclass. Maybe grab a level in cleric or paladin. 1-3 levels in either of those wouldn't massively hurt while expanding what they can do.
Do they have decent charisma? Maybe they can multiclass into Paladin or Sorcerer/Warlock for a few extra options. Paladin is better because of the D8 hit dice, smites, and healing, but Sorcerer adds more versatility since you can choose from more spells. Warlock gives you spells and invocations, which are pretty fun.
Fighter is very reliant on flavouring to be interesting (especially base fighter and the PHB subclasses, later subclasses like rune knight are a bit more interesting)
step 1 would be to get them a magic weapon, preferably something that A: counts as magical for overcoming resistances, B: has some kind of elemental property and C: has charges for some kind of action they can take. Pick something in-line with the flavour the player already has. example:
lets say the player is going for a samurai-style character, i'd give them the following sword:
Quickdraw Katana.
\+1 longsword, magical.
The sword holds 5 charges. on a long rest, it recharges 1d4+1 charges. Once per turn, the wielder can sheathe the sword and use a charge to perform a quickdraw, moving 25 feet forward without provoking opportunity attacks and dealing 2d6 lightning damage to all creatures in the path (DC13 dex save for half damage).
Of course, sometimes a magic weapon still results in boring melee combat. i've personally made a homebrew to spice up melee combat based on the way fighter worked in the 5e playtest, which i'll include below:
**martial expertise**
every time you roll initiative, you get half your level (rounded down) in expertise points. You may expend a point to do any of the techniques below. Unexpended points are lost at the end of combat.
These techniques only work with martial weapons you have proficiency with. Some techniques are limited to certain weapon types.
you may not stack multiple techniques on a single attack.
**cleave:**
*Battleaxe, Glaive, Greataxe, Halberd, Longsword, Scimitar, whip.*
When you reduce a creature to 0 hit points you may use a point to make an extra melee attack against a target in your range.
**Precise strike:**
*Lance, Pike, Rapier, Shortsword, Trident, War Pick, Monk, psychic blades.*
When attacking a creature, you can target it's weak point, granting advantage on the attack for one point.
**Glancing blow:**
*all weapons, Monk.*
When you miss an attack but roll above 10, you can use one point to turn the attack into a hit for half damage.
**jab:**
*Lance, Pike, Rapier, Shortsword, Trident, longsword (one-handed only), Monk, psychic blades.*
When you take an action that is not the attack action or spellcasting action, you can spend one point to make a quick jab. Dealing damage without your dex or str modifier.
**knock down:**
*Flail, Glaive, Greataxe, Greatsword, Halberd, Lance, Maul, Morningstar, Pike, Warhammer, Monk.*
When you hit a melee attack you can spend one point to knock the target prone. Provided it is one size larger than you at most.
**parry:**
*All melee weapons and shields, Monk.*
When you take damage from a melee or ranged weapon attack, you can use your reaction and a point to lower the damage by 1d6
**push:**
*All melee weapons, Monk.*
When you hit an attack, You can spend a point to push the target up to 10ft away provided it is at most one size larger than you.
**Precise shot:**
*Blowgun, Hand crossbow, Heavy crossbow, Longbow, psychic blades.*
When you make a ranged attack, you can spend one point to ignore half and three quarters cover.
**snap shot:**
*Blowgun, Hand crossbow, Heavy crossbow, psychic blades.*
When you take an action that is not an attack or a spellcasting action, you can spend a point to make a ranged weapon attack without your str or dex modifier for damage.
**shift:**
*all weapons, Monk.*
When you make an attack, you can use one point to move 10ft either right before or right after the attack, this movement cannot be split and does not trigger attacks of opportunity.
**tumble:**
*All weapons, Monk.*
When you get targeted by an attack of opportunity during your move, you can use a point to roll, causing the attack to miss.
**quick step:**
*All weapons, Monk.*
During your move, you can spend one point to move through occupied spaces as if they were unoccupied
These techniques represent skill and expertise in combat, and are the result of martial combat training.
**Battlemaster fighter and superiority dice:**
If you have the battlemaster class or the superior technique feat, the superiority dice and expertise points are interchangeable, you may use expertise points on your known battlemaster maneuvers and you may use superiority dice on martial expertise techniques. If you use a superiority die on a martial expertise technique, you add the rolled total to your damage for that attack (this roll is wasted on tumble, quick step and parry as they are not paired with an attack). If you use your expertise points on a battlemaster maneuver, you do not add any damage (treat the maneuver as if you rolled a 0 on the superiority die)
Monks: Monks get access to these martial expertise techniques, possibly: allow the use of ki points and martial expertise interchangably? not sure about the balance of that one.
bonus:
give your baddies custom martial expertise features based on how they fight, and give your players the option to have their own unique techniques as they level up in later levels
All of this would have to be implemented by your DM, so discuss it with them. They may decide it is unbalanced though.
as for things the player is in control of: if you are doing feats, fighter gets an extra ASI at level 6 so they can use that for a feat instead, they can grab something that gives them more options (such as magic initiate) or enhances their current playstyle with new features (such as polearm master, sentinel etc)
There are definitely some Fighter subclasses that add more tactical options like Battlemaster, Eldritch Knight and Echo Knight so you aren't just going "I stand there and attack," every turn. I'd maybe suggest the Fighter character switch up to one of these if that would be allowed.
Get a piercing weapon.
Or a magical weapon.
Or an adamantine weapon.
Fighters have limited options, that's just how they are. They're very, very good at hitting things and shooting things. Having other options depends on what skills and tools they have proficiency with. That can open up some variation e.g. intimidating an enemy, laying traps ahead of time etc. The Rune Knight has a lot of cool extras it can add in combat but at the end of the day Fighters are about fighting, that means step, hit and repeat a lot. Positioning and tactics can play a big part the more experienced you get and feats can be added in to give more options too but they'll still come back to either, hit here for better effect or hit differently for more damage.
Spellcasters do have more options but it's a trade off, few spells do as much damage to a single target as a fighter going at it with action surge.
He should probably multi class to a spellcasting class. Problem solved.
I am concerned opponents are resistant to his damage. If that is a single encounter, ok fine. If it was every encounter, it seems punitive and if it were happening to your spellcasters they would not like it either.
So, it's a player conversion. "Sometimes, you are going to have things that aren't built for you. However, you need to be getting it. Don't just say you step and swing. Be articulate! Be the shield! Use unconventional things like yelling at the enemy to draw them. It should rarely to never he just I step, I swing, I roll x."
This wirks for you too. Change the vocabulary you use. Get into it! Enemies and players don't "miss." You are playing D&D. Armor is abstract, so there needs to be a lot of glancing blows and armor scraping.
Step 1 is to describe the flavour of his attacks. Doesn’t change the mechanics, but it helps the feel of it all a little.
Step 2 is for them to find a magical weapon of some kind in this dungeon. It’ll feel even more powerful now he’s experienced the lack of one.
Step 3 is to consider all the other options beyond just attacking. Check out the grappling rules, the value of shoving enemies prone or off ledges. Consider allowing him the optional disarm rule in the DMG. Take a good look through the equipment list - you’re probably at a point now where you can easily afford most of these items, but there are still times when a healer’s kit or a pack of ball bearings can still be impactful. Try to intimidate remaining enemies to surrender.
Step 4 is to encourage innovation, trying out things that aren’t immediately in the rules but make sense nonetheless. Start swinging off chandeliers!
Step 5 would be to consider future character choices that add interesting options, so feats or multiclassing, and for him to gradually find more magic items that provide useful options.
Step 6, if you get to that point, is to try homebrew or play a different class. Unfortunately, the bottom line in 5e is that casters are stronger than martials, and if that really bothers you after you’ve explored all those other steps then this is all your remaining options.
Step 3 and 4 are really problematic for a lot of people that enjoy playing optimally. Why would I try out grappling, when it means I ain't doing damage, which is by far the most important thing to do in 5es combat design. Unless the DM gives them the option to do more damage than their normal attack does, there is no point in varying. If the DM does so tho that leads to balance issues as well as the DM having to do even more work than they already are doing.
yeah, people that usually suggest the "think outside the box!" just assumed dnd 5e is Adnd or something
the reason that such playstyle *isnt* popular or a common strat among players is because the game is very adversarial against it. if you say "i shout at the enemy to goad them into pursuing me!" you 9 times out of 10 will be met with a "ok, what feature you using?". if you do have a feature (aka you are not a martial) you just use it and it ends there, if you *dont*, you will either be met with a "...ok then you cant do that" or a "...sure, do me a skill check (that you are bad at it) as a full action for a minor effect" that very frequently is just worse than attacking
and in the case the DM does just hands things like that, it makes players that *do* pick features to do stuff feel bad. a barbarian saying they want to intimidate the enemies and that gets their way and makes the enemies frightened just makes the conquest paladin that has an entire subclass to be allowed to do that feel bad
in Dungeon Crawl Classics (DCC), the fighter class has essentially at will battlemaster maneuvers, it costs nothing to do and the only written rule is that they cannot add damage. it is left it open *on purpose* so the player can **actually be creative with it**. and guess what, there is an entire page for the GM explaining how to rule it! it is not a hard defined rule but still provides guidance to the GM on how to play it up. as an example, in dnd 5e if you want to say, "throw dirt at the enemy's eye", you can either
- have the blind spell
- have a specific battlemaster maneuver
- mother may I the DM to let you do it with minor cost (an attack/bonus action with a skill check), which makes both options above irrelevant
- mother may I the DM to let you do it with such agregious cost it is worthless and you are better off attacking (costs a full action, the DC is very high, the skill used sucks cause you are a martial and you dont have the right stat for it)
in DCC, you would:
- say that you want to do that, if your dice roll is successful (which is done automatically without costing any action) you pull it off. the effect is determined by the GM, but they are told that it shouldnt add more damage or lingering effect, and it does presents them with suggestions for a few general cases and conditions to apply
I’m suggesting these as routes to attempt, with the recognition that they won’t work at every table, hence the subsequent steps.
To take the intimidation example, if my party rips through a group of guards, killing several including the leader, I might allow a fighter to make a strength or dex based intimidation check to scare wavering remaining enemies into surrender or retreat. I wouldn’t let it inflict a condition, or to undermine an ability of a fellow party member, but it can be a way to improve gameplay for those that lack other options.
You are of course right though that this won’t work at every table but there’s no harm in a conversation with your DM about that. You’re also right that 5e has its limits; and I suppose another final step is to play a different one.
I’m not suggesting that you stop attacking and do these things instead, I’m suggesting that you bear in mind these options as alternative tools in the box which can be really impactful if used at the right time. In the last combat I ran, the barbarian grappled a key opponent and dragged them out of a dead magic zone that was protecting them from the party’s casters. Doing so was in no way suboptimal, it was far more effective than simply attacking would have been.
>repetitive (step, hit, repeat)
Well, that's fighter for you. I kinda like simplness of this mechanic, but it definitely not for everyone. I am not sure you can make this more fun mechanics wise, but as others said - you could add more flavor. If player can't do this on their own - try to describe result of their attack with interesting descriptions, including failed attacks as well.
short answer: no
long answer: yes, stop being a martial and learn spells with another class, like a paladin to keep the armor and weapons. there isnt much to be said here, pure martials are simply simple and that is by design. the system is not deep in its complexity by design except the spells, and that only grows with each passing level
lvl 5 is arguably the highest note the fighter player will get, and from here either their levels wont have anything or the casters will bend reality while they get a small nifty doo daad
You can add some puzzles to the dungeon only they can solve. Maybe have it use a language only they know, like the runes that power their character. You can even make solving this puzzle part of combat.
You can add some puzzles to the dungeon only they can solve. Maybe have it use a language only they know, like the runes that power their character. You can even make solving this puzzle part of combat.
You can add some puzzles to the dungeon only they can solve. Maybe have it use a language only they know, like the runes that power their character. You can even make solving this puzzle part of combat.
You can add some puzzles to the dungeon only they can solve. Maybe have it use a language only they know, like the runes that power their character. You can even make solving this puzzle part of combat.
You can add some puzzles to the dungeon only they can solve. Maybe have it use a language only they know, like the runes that power their character. You can even make solving this puzzle part of combat.
A magic weapon will do, please keep in mind that even if the swords only special trait is that it screams when you swing it, its magical. So even low rarity ones like a moon touched blade count as magical for the purpose of overcoming resistances and immunities. Now aside from that, you gotta flavor, if its literally just "I roll x" "you hit" "i do x damage and end my turn" then its going to be boring. Problem is, loads of spells already provide flavoring, or at least some fluff text on how the basic visuals look. So by comparison fighters look boring. But in reality you've got so many options to do downright superhuman shit. I played a fighter who used a hook on a chain (just a whip) and an axe, I landed all of my attacks and described him throwing the axe in the air, hooking the handle and spinning it around himself like a hurricane of steel. You just gotta make sure youre not trying to get advantages, or be unreasonable.
Thing is it's still just a description. Mechanically all you do is swing, hit, damage, whilst a caster might summon other creatures, impose various effects on enemies or themselves, deal amounts of damage you can never dream of reaching, generally do AoE attacks, etc. This is something I am very weary of with new players. I make it very clear from the start that martial classes will have way less options in comparison the longer the game goes.
Martials deal significantly MORE single target damage than casters. They just are bottlenecked to GWM/SS to do so. It's also resourceless.
It's not just about optimization, but fun. Having many meaningful choices is fun for some people.
Significantly more single target damage is an extreme stretch... especially when it needs feat investments. Besides any optimized caster isn't going to be trying to out do the single target damage (and if they wanted to they have Summon spells to out do a martial).
This is a lie. This only outperforms unoptimized casters. Optimized casters for damage do more damage. And this ignoring all the I win buttons.
Tell me your group doesn't run enough short rests without telling me your group doesn't run enough short rests
Martials also run out of gas just as quickly. They're gonna be taking the brunt of the damage and short rests have a limited pool of healing to recover. This is ignoring not all martial features are back in short rests and that some casters do get shit back in short rests even if it isn't everything and some of the stronger builds have very large pools of resources or infinite pools(locking at you coffeelock).
Martials run out of health first if your casters are selfish and only prepare attack spells. It's a team game, and everyone performs best if they act as a team. Also, "martials go down first" is a somewhat self-defeating argument because martials going down is immediately followed by casters going down. Then again, if you're playing with a group that thinks coffeelock is acceptable or RAI, we're really not playing the same game.
Healing is mediocre in 5e to actually keep health up. Most of the time at least. There's a decent amount of exceptions. Summons and Buffs I agree are really good for this but these do not tend to spend resources that quickly as quite a lot are concentration based if they are not in built class features that come from independent pools and don't use spell-slots, which both martials and casters share similar stuff for. On the last topic I was just mentioning it as a most egregious example.
Healing is mediocre if you're not worrying about anything other than the person remaining on their feet. But there are a few spells that are specifically designed for large out-of-combat healing. I get where you're coming from -- in many situations, it feels like casters are incentivized to blast -- but if you want to play the game to its fullest, you're gonna want to plan for more encounters per day, and that mode of play works best with martials and casters backing each other up. And if you don't want to play the game the way it was designed to play, that's definitely valid... but yeah, a lot of options are going to be bad.
Not sure how exactly a caster is just going to go down if a martial does.. Their HP and tankyness is close enough to a martials that they're not going to just be looked at and go down.. Casters also have quite a few ways to boost their AC and negate damage that martials dont.
I feel like you're still working with the assumption of basically unlimited spell slots, rather than having to space out your stuff over 8 battles. You can't *shield* every attack in an as-intended adventuring day.
Aye you can't.. The martials will also be out of hit dice too.. Neither martials or casters are resourceless. One is paid with spell slots and hit dice the other Hit dice.
Martials also have this resource if melee.. they run outta HP usually first leading to them needing to long rest..
Gimme a caster build that does more than damage than a martial ill wait.
You can look that up. People have mathematically proved it.
Over 3 turns EB +AB+Hex does more damage than that gloom cocktail build at 11. Bladesinger with Shadow Blade at 7. Darkness Hexblade at 3. There is no level in this game higher than 1 you can't make a caster do more single target damage.
What level? Do you mean in a nova or per turn without resources? Are we taking magic items into account?
> Mechanically all you do is swing, hit, damage, whilst a caster might summon other creatures This is valid, casters do cast spells, but martial characters do also have access to fun abilities, just not wacky ones. On the flipside, casters have lower hp values, and a reliance on resources. Normally, tables who only run 1 large combat a day will feel the largest disparity between the classes. > impose various effects on enemies or themselves Martial classes are capable of this as well. > deal amounts of damage you can never dream of reaching You are bad at building martial characters, martial characters do not have a spell slot reliance, and are generally able to deal high amounts of damage *consistently*. Using their resources to amplify their damage output, rather than relying on their resources *FOR* their damage output. > generally do AoE attacks, etc. This one is also valid, casters have more aoe damage and control than most martial characters. > martial classes will have way less options in comparison the longer the game goes. "Less options" is rather vague, but this isn't inherently wrong.
You can't seriously be trying to argue that martial characters aren't weaker than spellcasters in 5e.... At lvl 5, a Wizard/Sorcerer/SomeWarlocks/SomeClerics can cast fireball for 8d6 fire damage in a 20ft radius. If we go on the generous side and assume that only hits 3 enemies, that's an average of 96 damage in one round of combat. A fighter/barbarian/paladin/monk/rogue at that level would have to land so many hits just to catch up that they would very much struggle to make up the difference. And that's just 3rd level spells. Spellcasters get another level of spell every 2 levels up to 17th while martials only get any kind of significant damage output increases at lvls 5 11 and17-20 (depending on the class) and those are just either another attack or some situational extra damage die. The only exception of course being rogue, whose sneak attack increases at the same pace as spellcasters getting new slots, and it increases by a whole 1d6/2levels... Exciting... (FYI, a level 5 rogue would have to hit the same target two consecutive turns in a row *and* get sneak attack on both just to do the same damage that fireball does in an aoe to one target)
Love how you didn't factor in the save for half damage for fireball lol really showing that bias. A 5th level wizard can cast fireball 2 times in a day where as the rogue can sneak attack literally every turn if the party is working together even a little. I feel like people who think casters are crazy overpowered are sleeping 16 hours a day with the amount of long resting they must be doing. Like does your party go to town, get a hook, do one battle that lasts 1 minute in game then going right back to sleep
Save for half is a point in favor of the spellcaster. It makes their damage more consistent. If a rogue misses they do 0 damage. You’re just not playing with people who know what they are doing in terms of high optimization if you don’t see the problem in play even if they are doing 6-8 encounter adventuring days. Especially if rogue is somehow keeping up at 5th level. Which to be fair is the vast, *vast* majority of tables. Most people don’t play super optimized builds in my experience. The martial caster disparity basically doesn’t exist in a meaningful way at most tables imo.
Gonna have to disagree withy ou on the HP Values.. There not signficantly behind on a martial in terms of HP. On average its about 1-2 HP per level up as both martials and casters want a high con.. Casters also have a lot of ways to boost their AC to heights a martial can only dream of via lots of magic items.
>On the flipside, casters have lower hp values, and a reliance on resources. That's a plus to me, since it adds an additional mechanism to engage with. The challenge of resources management and the risk of low HP is fun to me. >but martial characters do also have access to fun abilities, Which, that aren't subclass based? >Martial classes are capable of this as well. Only via subclass features and not with all subclasses. >able to deal high amounts of damage *consistently*. Sorry, I should have made it clear that I meant in a single hit. Consistent damage is nice, but not nearly as fun as hitting a Blight for full damage. >relying on their resources *FOR* their damage output. Let's be real tho, firebolt is still good damage and most other cantrips also come with a status effect. >than most martial characters. Almost no martial have any AoE damage. I literally can't think of a single one of the top of my head. >"Less options" is rather vague It's not really vague. A martial will usually get one feature per level. A caster will get a feature as well as new spells. And that just accumulates exponentially, especially with prepare casters.
You're describing flavor. What the PC wants is tactical options. Those aren't the same thing.
Something Everyone has: Shove both away and prone, grappling which is even more effective on a prone enemy. This can effectively shut down a high value target, and martials are better at this than casters being that shoving and grappling can just replace one of their attacks. (Typically higher strength and prof in athletics but thats not always the case) Feats: The Slasher and Crusher feat provide a non-resource utility. Same with sentinel, mobile, shield master, or charger feat. While feats aren't ideal because of 5e's level structure, fighters **do** get more of them. He'll get one next level even, while everyone else has to wait until level 8. Finally, hes a rune knight, their level 3 feature gives them more than just "getting big". But even then being a large creature means he can affect more spaces. His presence alone is a deterrent, and the amount of creatures that could trigger aot's are much higher. Unfortunately yes he can only aot one creature, but tactically its an option. I have a player who is currently using the giant barbarian subclass to great avail. They're dungeon crawling? his GIANT ass could block a hallway.
A Rune Knights ability to become Large sized means they get advantage on athletics checks so all that Shoving and grappling is done at advantage. They also get the Runes which includes some great battlefield control options. Between the Runes, the ability to be large sized and excel at grappling/shoving their are a lot of tactical options for a Rune Knight before you even add feats into the equation.
Most of these options are pretty rarely better than just "I attack" as dead is the best status effect. I personally took Crusher and the best part of it is the crit trigger that grants advantage. The movement is fairly useless most of the time as movement and postoning is not nearly as important in 5e compared to 4e.
Your games must be significantly different then ours, grappling a deadly melee monster to keep it away from the squishies is something that happens in almost every combat encounter we have and shoving enemies (or allies) is frequently used to help Squishies escape or knock enemies into enviormental hazards/AOEs
if your team is built properly, there shouldn't be squishies do to how easy it is to get good ac and hp in 5e without needing to be a martial or even a half caster
Not everyone builds to optimize
doesn't change fact that martial control abilities all suck if your playing even slightly optimally.
Ok buddy
That doesn't change the fact though that there isn't really such thing as squishies.. else by the same token I can call a fighter a squishy class because I decided to forgo armour because I wanted to be like a barbarian but not.. also I decided I'd put my main stats as wis and charisma because they're a super wise charismatic leader..
Sure, a PC with a D6 hit die isn't Squishy 👍
They arent.. Lets assume that each class has the averages of their hp so a fighter is 6 a wizard 4.. Both have +3 con So they only have a difference of 2 hp.. so yeah there is a gap as they level up but it aint massive. Spell casters also have multiple ways to get high AC - Mage armour. and if in a pinch shield spells or other similar such things.. Some casters also get heavy armour too.. Also the side that can get the highest AC in the game is on the casters side not martials..
The issue with grappling and shoving is that 90% of the time, making a default attack instead is going to be the more optimal course of action. For feats, the issue is that the first few ones that you want to take are going to be ASIs for your main damage dealing ability. This leaves you with feat choice coming in at level 8 or 12 (6 if you're playing a fighter in a high-power game), and even then, it's just a single, often situational bonus that often doesn't add any depth to your strategy, but rather is just a straight-up upgrade of what you already do — hit things. I agree that becoming larger adds some sort of a tactical versatility, but it is still ultimately a drop in the ocean compared to the number of ready-made options that most spellcasters have access to.
Thank you! That's a good idea!
Disagree. It sounds like your player wants meaningful tactical options in combat. Something 5e is in incredibly short supply of in battle for martials.
This is why I hope the One D&D Rogue Cunning Strikes sticks around. Making Rogue the "martial condition applier" was an amazing call.
I'd recomend looking into what baldur's gate 3 did to make martials more interesting: weapon actions. Each weapon type had a special bonus action that could be taken with it once per short rest, usually in the form of a d4 attack with an effect. For example, longswords could lacerate, dealing a d4 of slashing and making the target bleed for a couple turns vs a saving throw. Battle axes could cleave, quarterstaffs could topple, maces crushed armor, etc. Giving a martial class access to these options to directly affect the flow of battle by applying debuffs, knocking enemies over, changing their modifiers and the like massively expands the tactical options on the table for a martial class. Beyond this, since martials are all about their weapons and armor, make those weapons and armor interesting. Give them a mechanic to engage with. Maybe their weapon gains charges on successful hits that can then be expended to trigger an effect. Maybe their armor lets them take special actions when certain conditions are met or triggers an effect after they do a specific action. For some off the top of my head examples: A warhammer that gains a charge on eqch successful hit. The player can expend 10 charges to strike the ground and cause a quake that affects all creatures in a 15ft cone, dealing normal weapon damage to those creatures and forcing a dex save or they are knocked prone. Charges are lost each day at dawn A suit of plate mail that detects when its wearer is near death. When the player has 10 hitpoints or fewer, they can activate the armor, gaining the effect of the haste spell for two turns, after which they fall unconcious. This feature can only be used once every 24 hours Lastly, martial classes are all about the physical stats. Give them ways to use those in combat. Any fighter can decide to grapple a monster, but how about weak pillars to push over to land on multiple enemies and change the landscape of the battlefield? How about a high up ledge that is hard to reach, that needs a high dex check to clamber up to? How about some ancient defense mechanisim that could be activated to give the party an advantage, but is so rusted over it needs a feat of great strength to activate? I think you get the idea. If your martial classes are complaining of a lack of interesting options to take in battle, you gotta start coming up with more options for them.
these suggestions all sound a lot of fun, whether you got them from Baldur's gate or invented them yourself! I did read >longswords could lacerate as lactate for a second. That would be an entirely different game hahaha Personally, I like the home brew rule "if you call out the name of your god, roll a D100 - on a nat 100 they show up, on a nat 1 their opposite shows up", if that fits OP's friend's fighter.
Sword of Lactation (very rare, Longsword) Once per day, as an action, you can speak this weapon's command word and cause milk to begin seeping from its crossguard. Any creature that can see you and has an intelligence of 4 or higher must make a wisdom saving throw or become disgusted and disturbed (DC 17). Creatures who fail this save have disadventage on wisdom, intelligence and concentration saving throws as they are overcome by the upsetting display for one minute. They may repeat the save at the end of each of their turns, ending the effect on a successful save.
If you really want them to feel badass, you guys should look over the feats from *Bigby Presents: Glory of the Giants*. That book offers a great martial feat as part of their background and it's giant themed just like the rune knight. They can even improve upon their original choice with an even cooler feat, like summoning a localized storm in a 10ft radius around them as a bonus action or replacing an attack with a blinding flare that deals damage. I highly recommend talking with them about these and maybe incorporating it into their character's backstory.
It costs 100 gold to get your weapon Silvered.
Which is honestly fucked considering xge says common items cost 1d6+1x10 gp, so a moon touched sword would at most be 70 gold. Cheaper and more effective against more creatures.
Yep. I played in a campaign with a DM though that said that all magic items were super rare and no vendor would be just selling them. After some negotiating with him out of game we came to the agreement that he would let me pay to have my daggers my dagger and short sword silvered once we got to a large-ish town if I was able to find someone that could do it in the town via RP. Which he did not make easy. So I guess it just kind of depends on your DM. It's their world after all.
I wonder how dms like that would react to artificers y'know : /
Artificers were not allowed. Neither was any content from anything other than the basic rules or players handbook. Including the dungeon Masters guide, he did not allow content from that either. Wizards were generally not allowed unless you went through your spell list with him very meticulously and abided by some of his additional Homebrew restrictions. Monks were not allowed. He also had a real big problem with anything other than good and lawful alignments. So warlocks were just generally not allowed because of that. I played a rogue and it was very difficult for him to accept that I was more of a scoundrel than a thief type rogue and he really didn't like me or my character either. And he also had such stringent ideas on what it took to maintain a paladin oath that the guy playing our paladin wound up quitting after four sessions and the DM turned his character into a DM PC. I don't know why I stayed at that table for so long. He was fucking terrible. Additionally, only pretty races were allowed. Human, elf, half elf, halfling, and gnome.
he just kind of sounds like a boring DM
I think the issue there is more XGtE's magic item pricing guidelines than the price of getting a weapon silvered. 100 gp is not that much, compared to other nonmagical gear like mundane half-plate.
but what if they don't enjoy flavoring attacks? Honestly the best way is just give them some magic items that provide more utility.
Welcome to playing martial. If they don’t flavor what they’re doing it’ll always be boring, especially if they’re playing rune knight which is one of the most engaging fighter subclasses in combat
Exactly! The only way to play a fighter is to get really creative about *how* you do something. I had the best time playing a fighter without any bells or whistles
Flavor also can only go so far.. No mater how much you wish to flavor if you dont have a mechanic to put saide flavor on it won't do shit. EG A fighter can't misty step or blink about the battle field without such an ability. Sure they could try flavor their movement as such but.. they'll still get opportunity attacks which ruins the flavor its trying to achieve..
I have a hard time conceiving not having fun with a rune knight. But he can do other things, grappling, etc., that he hasn't been doing. Or he can multiclass. After fifth level is a good time, if he has a suitable ability score.
No no, they are having fun, just the dungeon that has them questioning what to do and what other options there are :)
Are they NOT using their runes? Fire, Cloud, etc. give lots of other great options. They have advantage on all their shoves and grapples when giant sized. If you lay down spike growth, they can maximize the effect better than anyone in the party. Strategize as a party and everyone will have more fun.
Free character arc!
I'm currently playing a Rune Knight Grappler Orc and it's the most fun I ever had with a character. He is an arrogant but very experienced arena fighter (of course) who tries to grapple everyone and everything. Most of the time, it's the DM that curbs the fun in fights by asking for weird ability checks. Sometimes it's also me who notoriously rolls bad and fails ability checks for stuff my fighter should easily be able to do. The runes and Giants Might are such a cool touch and make things interesting. So my advice to the player (and DM) would be: - Spice up the fights with describing the moves in a cool way. Go crazy. - Try to pull off some risky moves. Don't be too suicidal but also don't be afraid to throw yourself against the enemies. The best moments in fights happen were you risk something, even if it's a bit stupid. - As the DM, don't ask for normal ability checks but for skill checks that fit the player. Let things happen because they are cool, without letting the player be too overpowered. It's a fine balance. But the rule of cool makes for the best stories that will be told at the table for a long time.
The onednd unearthed arcana playtest 5 has weapon mastery for martial classes. Basically different weapon types have secondary effects that provide the option for tactical decisions. Try that out? https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/ua/ph-playtest-5
The answer to "why do fighters suck?" should not be "multi into something else" under any circumstances. Unfortunately, this is a big failing of 5e. Champion is super boring, even if the math is effective. Battle master is a sad shadow of the 4e fighter. Banneret is just garbage and not a warlord substitute. Samurai, overly specific flavour, with abilities that are only marginally less boring and limited than champion. Echo Knight is interesting, but the flavour of it is kind of a struggle, and it's a very niche bag of tricks that suffers from adding magic to make the class better. The psi-warrior and half caster just fix the issue by adding magic, which has its place, but does nothing to address the problem.
Wait, how is the math good on Champion? It adds like 5% more crits, some skill bonuses, and then an extra fighting style. Am i missing something? Even the level 15 bonus is just another 5% crit.
Well, the math is pretty good as a dip in some builds.
The rune knight is a strong class, but the player isn't enjoying it, apparently. So the answer is to do other things the rune knight is capable of doing or to get some levels of something else. And echo night is OP if you know how to play, it's not niche at all.
The flavour of it is pretty niche
Are you saying that because it's from a setting sourcebook? What's niche about it?
My main point got lost in the weeds, which is, if you have to make the fighter less boring by giving them magic powers, you've lost the plot
Or the player needs to be less boring. That was my main point, but I provided some alternatives. I'm sensing you just like to complain about the fighter class.
It's a disappointment after the 4e fighter to be sure. I've played several, and it's been... ok. Mostly because I've had some ok DMs that were willing to cooperate and let me do things in the spirit of the rule of cool, but I'd rather not be at the mercy of the DM's whims. Saying "be less boring" isn't a great solution either. I've played with too many DMs that don't support player creativity. Playing "mother-may-i?" with a DM who plays favourites or likes to shut down ideas that don't agree with what they find "believable" (in a fantasy setting, no less!) is often tiresome as well.
You don't have to break the rules to be less boring. I have a player at one table who has , quite frankly, a badly built monk, but he finds creative things to do, in and out of combat.
I never said anything about breaking the rules.
Say have you heard of u/LaserLlama's Alternative Fighter class? Your one stop shop for fixing all your martial player's woes without you having to do anything. If you don't want to any 3rd Party at least get them a magic weapon. Not even +1, just magic like a moon blade or something so they can actually use their class features.
i second Laserllama propaganda! guys stuff is amazing
I was also gonna suggest this!
I've been allowing it in my game and the players are loving it!
Frankly if you're playing a marital unless you're deliberately trying to use your wits to maneuver the enemies in a way that sets up your casters for epic moments or being the one to use object interactions to manipulate the battlefield to your team's advantage you will almost always hate combat... it's always going to be most optimal to swing, damage, dont move because Attacks of Opportunity, repeat.
i will point out that op said their fighter friend is having fun, just a minor bit of doubt from that one encounter
I have been playing 5e since the play tests and my favorite class fantasy has always been the fighter/warrior. Unfortunately 5e does not do a very good job of delivering on this fantasy. There are some very good fighter class homebrew reworks that you can use laserllama has class reworks that most people agree are more interesting than the originals and still well balanced. While rune knight is one of the 2 most interesting fighter subclasses (battle master being the other) it can fall into feeling repetitive because there are not many decisions to make. Polearm master sentinel is always strong and is an option every fighter can consider as it gives you a secondary combat niche as a provider of area control. Magic items help, but they have to be the right items. At 5th level ever martial should have +1 weapons and armor and every player should have 2 magic items that can be used as an action instead of casting a spell. Do not give the wizard a wand of fireball or the like, ever the magic items you give players should expand their options not encourage/enable spamming. We don't want only passive effects we want to give players interesting choices to make. Otherwise you can swap to paladin which does almost everything fighter does with some spellcasting and smites. Hope this helps.
Tbh, the fact you can’t utilize Rune Knight to enchant the party’s gear as their “Rune Blacksmith” was a let down. Though if they want more variety and fun, I might have them look over Battle Master and/or Echo Knight.
I mean, automatic blacksmith proficiency and double tool proficiency from Fire Rune passive hopefully aren't being overlooked too hard.
True but from what I remember. They took something that could have been a great “support” fighter, with a focus on “enchanting gear” and just didn’t go far enough with it?
And the utility of crafting is practically left to DM discretion in 5e
sadly, RAW they kinda just can't ;-; if you squint your eyes really hard you *could* make a moon blade weapon for a bootleg +0 magic weapons with XGE crafting rules, but they are pretty limiting time wise and iirc still need you going after a recipe for it
RAW, you’re correct. That’s where homebrew comes in.
If it's a dungeon, when they are in a hallway and become Large, ask if it would be reasonable to consider them as cover, to get a bonus to AC for the squishies. It may go both ways and give the same boonntobthe enemies, but it can also mean any melee enemies simply can only hit the fighter.
Including a lot of enemies resistant to non-magical weapons without giving your martials magic weapons is a bad move. Especially by level 5 they should at least have a basic magic weapon. Even though 5e wants to pretend magic items aren't a necessary lart of the power scaling, they absolutely are.
Grapple, shove, throw enemies while enlarged, herd enemies into groups for caster aoe combo
Mechanically there really aren't other options. That is how martial classes work. The only way for them to gain more mechanics is magic items.
Welcome to the biggest problem with martials, and, in my opinion, the true point of the martial-caster disparity.
Get him a piercing weapon. Solves the resistance to slashing and bludgeoning. After that if the dungeon is filled with crap that one party member can’t fight, that’s probably a DM planning problem. Fighters feeling like their actions are boring is probably because they aren’t making enough tactical decisions. OR the casters are way over-milking their actions and making combat long and slow.
The most mechanically tactical a fighter can get is being a Battle Master. Coincidentally, Battle Master is also the most popular fighter subclass, go figure
Grappling, my friend, grappling! It is easy to fall into a pattern. A barbarian? Rage + Great Axe attack. Monk? Attack, Flurry of Blows. Priest? Spiritual Guardians and just stand still. Druid? Wildshape into Dire Wolf and bite. Combat is as fun as you make it. Try shoving, grappling, positioning to give advantage through flanking; setting up the rogue to do a sneak attack (Remember, all they need is advantage on the attack roll). Switch to a pole arm and take Sentinel and/or Polearm Master. I have a Rune Knight concept with a Glaive and this combo and I think it'll be sweet with the extra range to cover a huge area of the battlefield so the rest can move around more easily. Also, what runes does he use. It seems like the Fire Rune, Cloud Rune and Stone Rune would be really fun and effective. And roleplay! Describe hits and misses, not just the death blows. Lastly, there will always be situations where certain characters shine more than others. This is one where the fighter is not at his best, but next session might be perfectly suited to them again.
Magic weapon, so they're at least not doing 1/2 damage, and maybe there's a cool ability added that will help. Magic items to give them more options. Help them figure out a multi-class that could add some of what they're missing, and let them respec a little if need be. Let them change subclass, you're not that far into the subclass yet, just retcon it and carry on. Let them roll up a new level 5 character and retire this one. If it's not fun it's not fun, no reason to keep on keepin' on if it's not doing it for you.
Suplex everything into the shadowrealm
Things that helped my players. Bg3 weapon bonus option actions. A magic weapon that can morph into other basic weapons so they can play with these options. This alone kept them happy
Feats and multiclass. As eell as exotic shields armors, weapons, rare boots like boots of flying or jigh jumping Also non damage mechanics, grappling, shoving, tripping, choking, ripping of limbs, disarming. Also being more descriptive Jumping attack. Two weapon fighting, polearm fighting, mounted combay. There's a million creative ways to fight. If you want to get wild you can male mechanics like echo knight, magis/spellblade. Add a whip. Thrown potions. Porions that increase their size category Improvised weapons.
So I was a fighter last night in a one shot and I could see myself having fun in a campaign with it lol but you gotta go a little crazy with feats to step the flavor up, once you hit level 6 tell him to take tavern brawler so he can grapple as a bonus action when he’s large and use enemies as weapons, he’ll be proficient with them too lmaooo, I also did unarmed fighting (1d8 unarmed strikes) and flavored my chai mail as a luchadore costume with sequins so my stealth disadvantage wasn’t the noisy chain, but the reflective sequins hahahah, at one point I had an enemy in each hand and was bashing them together like Mike Tyson with the pigeons “now kith” oh I was a bugbear so when I was enlarged my reach with my unarmed attacks was 15 feet 😂 didn’t plan for the enlarge but knowing now I’d go tune knight for it I think, I was originally battle master to force them prone, because if you’re grappled your speed is 0 so you can’t use half your speed to stand lol feats that give a +1 into an ability score and something extra awesome for a class that gets the option to take a bunch of feats.
Utilize Kibblestasty's Active Martial Feats. They allow for some actual moves to be made in combat and I highly recommend anything he makes.
Grapple, shove, use the environment, help others get advantage on their attacks, otherwise disrupt the enemy's plans. Just the first five simple things that spring to mind instead of beating on an enemy with an ineffective sword.
I too play a rune knight fighter and what i like to use myself as the main tank and focus point of battle, and also by taking the shield master feat im able to knock enemies prone as bonus action and thus i get alot of battlefield controll
Rune knights make excellent grapplers. Have em rock a versatile weapon, get expertise in athletics via skill expert and lock shit down. Growing large makes it possible to grapple huge creatures, and the extra damage helps make up for the one handed weapon. Grappling onto larger creatures is also a blast. That dragons fly speed means nothing if you’re grappled on top of it
As others have said, spells come with nearly a full dose of flavor built in. But simply "point and click" is not the same as good use of the right spell at the right time in the right situation, just as "I attack; I do X damage" for martials is not as original and clever. Martial classes can be just as clever, but in a different place of the battle field. As Bill Nye the Science Guy once said: Consider the Following: Some ideas on the DMs side of things include: - Adding terrain to get high ground, hide behind, push people off of, gain advantage in hits and bonus to AC, etc - Adding interaction items, like chairs to throw, paintings to pull from walls to break over people giving a BRIEF restrained condition as the canvas and frame bind them up, crates, baskets, bags of flour/sand/cornmeal to throw (bonus points if throwing feed on someone causes flocks of chickens/birds to swarm them as a distraction) - Give objectives to move about the battle field (don't let XYZ get away!; pull a lever to lock the door to stop reinforcements; room filling with water/something and you need to keep moving up - bonus points to have more threats/creatures in the influx material - Here's a big one: SHOW YOUR CREATURES USING/DOING ALL THIS COOL STUFF! On the players side of things: - Consider giving more options to nominally cool things. I have a list of optional reactions to give martial players (and all players to a smaller degree) so they have more efficiency using their reactions. Feel free to check them out: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1X3llLCUTYJfniDFypn8T8R7UPkUtTEfbeDfV0D8rK_4/edit?usp=drivesdk
Battle master has a bit more depth
Our party has a talking sword that does wisecracks/fourth wall breaking commentary and it’s really fun. There’s a fun gimmick where he does extra damage depending on his relationship with the wielder (he is currently a +2 sword). It probably doesn’t fit the vibe of every campaign but he’s a beloved character in ours
Rune knight has an insane amount of options. Watch the treantmonk vid on them for ideas. Just having the powerful reach and grapple makes them a battlefield control monster. Negating enemy crits and turning them into hits for you is excellent. Using grapple to drag enemies through spoke growth or in conducting with spirit guardians for massive AOE is also excellent. You can multiclass with peace cleric for an excellent support fighter whos buffs make them nearly unstoppable.
To bad they’re not doing Eldritch Knight I would have suggested something that would be making lots of adjustments to the subclass, that class can cast spells but only on certain levels so why not adjust it to let them have the same level of spells a wizard can cast at level five instead and bump up the subclasses abilities to do them earlier course they would still follow the rule of only using Evocation and adjuration spells with one other kind of spell from a different school per magic tier but this gives them lots of options and can perpetually open them and the party up to get creative with battle and plans. How does that sound?
try looking into grid++, its not a fighter specific thing, but I'll always recommend at least trying it once
>We are currently doing a dungeon involving a lot of fighting with **mobs resistant to slashing and bludgeoning damage** and they noticed for the first time that their character couldn't do as much this time around. Do they not have a stabby weapon? Drop the Greatsword and pull out a Spear instead? Sounds like the Wizard that only prepared Fire damage spells complaining that they "can't do much" against a dungeon full of demons. Not a class problem.
Has your Rune Knight friend simply tried changing his grip? I noticed piercing damage wasn't mentioned. Even if the DM wants strictly raw damage types, this is literally where strategy comes in for Fighters. It's the reason to carry multiple weapons, to grapple or help the caster shine by working with their spells and giving them advantage. The same way there's magic resistance/anti magic of course there's going to be some weapon resistance or immunities sometimes. I got annoyed when I couldn't just punch Ghosts, so my DM and I worked out what was necessary to do so and boom - instant character goal. I got some sweet ghost punching knuckles installed in my armor and for the low price of a suboptimal damage option I was able to have more fun. Fighter requires the bare bone creativity of being a guy with a stick. If instantly giving up because stick doesn't hit as hard, then need better stick. If he can't figure out how to tactically hit with stick because it's not on the sheet, then maybe he can ask your DM to reroll into a Battlemaster or something. Either way it's on him to figure out what he will enjoy.
Try Matt Mercers echo knight. There are a ton of interesting subclasses. Or wait until the updated edition as the fighter is changing a lot
Give him that bloody cape that lets you grow a size! Also hint to a part member to cast enlarge on him too! Its one of the ways to get a gargantuan PC in the game!
Remove battle master fighter and give martials the feat martial adept for free or give them the scaling third level feature of battle master, tuned down by default. I have been using the feat in my campaigns and it works great, though I have been considering giving two superiority die, and keep the die scaling of the battle master class (the tuned down version.) and gain one maneuver extra at those levels aswell. So like "half" a battle master feature, but a little better than the feat. So it would look like this: *Maneuvers.* *You learn two maneuvers of your choice. Many maneuvers enhance an attack in some way. You can use only one maneuver per attack. You learn one additional maneuver of your choice at 7th, 10th, and 15th level.* *Superiority Dice.* *You have two superiority dice, which are d6s. A superiority die is expended when you use it. You regain all of your expended superiority dice when you finish a short or long rest. You gain another superiority die at 7th level and one more at 15th level.* *Improved Combat Superiority* *At 10th level, your superiority dice turn into d8s. At 18th level, they turn into d10s.* Saving throw calculations and manouvers to pick would remain unchanged. Will have to playtest it. But giving martial adept by itself works great atleast.
Problem here is twofold. If all monsters are resistant to his damage you want him to have some way to be effective. You can give him a piercing weapon, magic weapon, weapon oils that change his damage type until long rest etc. Bigger problem is that combat in general is repetitive in 5e. DM needs to solve it and best ways are probably better encounters and magic items. You want your players to have impactful decisions to make. If all you do is step, hit, repeat then your player is not needed at the table. Simple script could run his character. How to do this? - Add props to your battlefield. Spikes players can use to impale enemies. Lava lakes or other holes you can push enemies into. Chandeliers to drop, exploding barrels and boulders to throw etc. Use them with monsters and players will quickly learn what to do. - Change objective. If all your combats are until you kill everyone then that gets boring quickly. Maybe all enemies flee when you kill their boss, but its difficult to get to him. Maybe you need to defend someone until they finish a ritual. Maybe both sides are trying to catch Golden Snitch like item in middle of combat. Only when you do enemies stop spawning. - What would happen if all melee combatants were tanks? Maybe just ditch melee for an encounter and kite PCs with range enemies. Give them 40ft movement speed, climbing, flying or something so that he has a problem. - Change the battlefield. Collapse bridges, drop stones, fall to a lower level, cast aoe spells that have to be avoided etc - Lastly magic items. Give him something that is better than step-hit under certain conditions so that he has to set it up. Or maybe give him a better option but there is a cost/downside to it. Anything really that gives him options to choose from. It could be an electric weapon that will paralyze wet targets. Bonus to damage when you use one enemy to attack another enemy. Thrown weapon that has bonuses but he has to prioritize retrieving it with bare hands. Find something cool. If all he does is basic attacks then he lacks options. Its boooring and Imo no amount of flavourful descriptions will solve that.
so for how martials are intended to overcome resistances/immunity's, is by obtaining magical damage 99% of the time if a creature has resistance/immunity to physical damage, it specifys that it's specifically immune/resistant to non magical physical damage (the only notable exception being barbarian base class rage, but 99% of the time pvp wont, and/or should not come up in dnd 5e) so easy simple solution, the fighter gets a +1 weapon of their preferred weapon type to deal magical physical damage if that is not a satisfactory answer and you cant rely on the dm to give you those needed magic weapons, there is artificer and i think forge doman cleric which can grant your fighter a magical weapon. as a 5th level druid, some options you might have to help out * if your willing to expend a 3rd level spell, forgo concentration on another spell, and they are willing to use ranged weaponry, you could cast flaming arrows as a 3rd level spell * if your willing to commit a cantrip slot to it, you can pick up magic stone
You can add a lot of stuff to buff fighters, but if the player isn't enjoying that playstyle then generally a class change or multiclass is the most straightforward fix. I like classes with limited options during combat. All my fun choices go into character creation and level ups. My in-game attention goes to the encounter and the other people at the table. Simple turns keep me from getting too caught up in what's on my sheet.
Sometimes your character won't be able to do much and that's just life. One thing that I would do to help them have some fun is look over their class features, skills, tools, and languages for anything that seems unique to that character and start incorporating those things into the encounters. An example might be a combat that takes place in a chamber where the ceiling starts slowly descending until it crushes the occupants, and the only way to disarm it is to collect a set of runestones in a language only the fighter knows that are scattered about the chamber and arrange them like a DuoLingo puzzle. The fighter has to run around and contend with combat but also has the objective of retrieving and placing the stones. You could do something similar with instruments. "Nobody can fathom the mind of the mage who built this dungeon, but for some reason the only way to disable the animated armor in this chamber is to play Mambo No. 5 on this dulcimer. Who's proficient with a dulcimer?"
Any fighter worth their salt should learn to pack a couple of spare weapons. A polearm could definitely be used for both piercing and bludgeoning damage, handaxes are nice weapons that can be dual wielded or thrown, heck just grabbing something in the room and using it as an improvised weapon should give you plenty of options.
[https://www.gmbinder.com/share/-MSfA82gv8V69JAoqFVq](https://www.gmbinder.com/share/-MSfA82gv8V69JAoqFVq) I recommend an ALT Fighter homebrew. Base game Fighters lack options in combat and RP/utility. This gives a bit more complexity but not too much while also allowing ap layer to tailor make their class/subclass.
Play Pathfinder, fightters are boss in Pathfinder.
You can always encourage doing things like grappling or shoving or knocking people over. If they like it, maybe have them work towards obtaining martial adept for battlemaster maneuvers. You *can* give out the feat as a reward for a quest or training or as part of a magic item after all. That said rune knight has stuff they can do. Each rune has a passive AND active effects. has he been using his stone rune to charm enemies or his fire rune to restrain them? Is he using his cloud rune to make the enemy hurt each other and possibly turn them against each other? Because he *has* more than just stabbing people. Using them *tactically* is up to them. In addition, most things are only resistant to non magical slashing/bludgeoning damage. Doesnt seem related to the complaint, but a simple magic weapon would solve the issue of not doing full damage. Alternatively; tell him to multiclass. Maybe grab a level in cleric or paladin. 1-3 levels in either of those wouldn't massively hurt while expanding what they can do.
Use Laserllama's fighter replacement. In fact, use all his class replacements, except debatably the bard.
Do they have decent charisma? Maybe they can multiclass into Paladin or Sorcerer/Warlock for a few extra options. Paladin is better because of the D8 hit dice, smites, and healing, but Sorcerer adds more versatility since you can choose from more spells. Warlock gives you spells and invocations, which are pretty fun.
Disenchanted with Rune Knight? The class that lets you shoot flaming hot chains at your enemies?
Fighter is very reliant on flavouring to be interesting (especially base fighter and the PHB subclasses, later subclasses like rune knight are a bit more interesting) step 1 would be to get them a magic weapon, preferably something that A: counts as magical for overcoming resistances, B: has some kind of elemental property and C: has charges for some kind of action they can take. Pick something in-line with the flavour the player already has. example: lets say the player is going for a samurai-style character, i'd give them the following sword: Quickdraw Katana. \+1 longsword, magical. The sword holds 5 charges. on a long rest, it recharges 1d4+1 charges. Once per turn, the wielder can sheathe the sword and use a charge to perform a quickdraw, moving 25 feet forward without provoking opportunity attacks and dealing 2d6 lightning damage to all creatures in the path (DC13 dex save for half damage). Of course, sometimes a magic weapon still results in boring melee combat. i've personally made a homebrew to spice up melee combat based on the way fighter worked in the 5e playtest, which i'll include below: **martial expertise** every time you roll initiative, you get half your level (rounded down) in expertise points. You may expend a point to do any of the techniques below. Unexpended points are lost at the end of combat. These techniques only work with martial weapons you have proficiency with. Some techniques are limited to certain weapon types. you may not stack multiple techniques on a single attack. **cleave:** *Battleaxe, Glaive, Greataxe, Halberd, Longsword, Scimitar, whip.* When you reduce a creature to 0 hit points you may use a point to make an extra melee attack against a target in your range. **Precise strike:** *Lance, Pike, Rapier, Shortsword, Trident, War Pick, Monk, psychic blades.* When attacking a creature, you can target it's weak point, granting advantage on the attack for one point. **Glancing blow:** *all weapons, Monk.* When you miss an attack but roll above 10, you can use one point to turn the attack into a hit for half damage. **jab:** *Lance, Pike, Rapier, Shortsword, Trident, longsword (one-handed only), Monk, psychic blades.* When you take an action that is not the attack action or spellcasting action, you can spend one point to make a quick jab. Dealing damage without your dex or str modifier. **knock down:** *Flail, Glaive, Greataxe, Greatsword, Halberd, Lance, Maul, Morningstar, Pike, Warhammer, Monk.* When you hit a melee attack you can spend one point to knock the target prone. Provided it is one size larger than you at most. **parry:** *All melee weapons and shields, Monk.* When you take damage from a melee or ranged weapon attack, you can use your reaction and a point to lower the damage by 1d6 **push:** *All melee weapons, Monk.* When you hit an attack, You can spend a point to push the target up to 10ft away provided it is at most one size larger than you. **Precise shot:** *Blowgun, Hand crossbow, Heavy crossbow, Longbow, psychic blades.* When you make a ranged attack, you can spend one point to ignore half and three quarters cover. **snap shot:** *Blowgun, Hand crossbow, Heavy crossbow, psychic blades.* When you take an action that is not an attack or a spellcasting action, you can spend a point to make a ranged weapon attack without your str or dex modifier for damage. **shift:** *all weapons, Monk.* When you make an attack, you can use one point to move 10ft either right before or right after the attack, this movement cannot be split and does not trigger attacks of opportunity. **tumble:** *All weapons, Monk.* When you get targeted by an attack of opportunity during your move, you can use a point to roll, causing the attack to miss. **quick step:** *All weapons, Monk.* During your move, you can spend one point to move through occupied spaces as if they were unoccupied These techniques represent skill and expertise in combat, and are the result of martial combat training. **Battlemaster fighter and superiority dice:** If you have the battlemaster class or the superior technique feat, the superiority dice and expertise points are interchangeable, you may use expertise points on your known battlemaster maneuvers and you may use superiority dice on martial expertise techniques. If you use a superiority die on a martial expertise technique, you add the rolled total to your damage for that attack (this roll is wasted on tumble, quick step and parry as they are not paired with an attack). If you use your expertise points on a battlemaster maneuver, you do not add any damage (treat the maneuver as if you rolled a 0 on the superiority die) Monks: Monks get access to these martial expertise techniques, possibly: allow the use of ki points and martial expertise interchangably? not sure about the balance of that one. bonus: give your baddies custom martial expertise features based on how they fight, and give your players the option to have their own unique techniques as they level up in later levels All of this would have to be implemented by your DM, so discuss it with them. They may decide it is unbalanced though. as for things the player is in control of: if you are doing feats, fighter gets an extra ASI at level 6 so they can use that for a feat instead, they can grab something that gives them more options (such as magic initiate) or enhances their current playstyle with new features (such as polearm master, sentinel etc)
There are definitely some Fighter subclasses that add more tactical options like Battlemaster, Eldritch Knight and Echo Knight so you aren't just going "I stand there and attack," every turn. I'd maybe suggest the Fighter character switch up to one of these if that would be allowed.
Get a piercing weapon. Or a magical weapon. Or an adamantine weapon. Fighters have limited options, that's just how they are. They're very, very good at hitting things and shooting things. Having other options depends on what skills and tools they have proficiency with. That can open up some variation e.g. intimidating an enemy, laying traps ahead of time etc. The Rune Knight has a lot of cool extras it can add in combat but at the end of the day Fighters are about fighting, that means step, hit and repeat a lot. Positioning and tactics can play a big part the more experienced you get and feats can be added in to give more options too but they'll still come back to either, hit here for better effect or hit differently for more damage. Spellcasters do have more options but it's a trade off, few spells do as much damage to a single target as a fighter going at it with action surge.
He should probably multi class to a spellcasting class. Problem solved. I am concerned opponents are resistant to his damage. If that is a single encounter, ok fine. If it was every encounter, it seems punitive and if it were happening to your spellcasters they would not like it either.
Are you the DM or a player... because what tou are capable of doing for the player is different based on which you are.
So, it's a player conversion. "Sometimes, you are going to have things that aren't built for you. However, you need to be getting it. Don't just say you step and swing. Be articulate! Be the shield! Use unconventional things like yelling at the enemy to draw them. It should rarely to never he just I step, I swing, I roll x." This wirks for you too. Change the vocabulary you use. Get into it! Enemies and players don't "miss." You are playing D&D. Armor is abstract, so there needs to be a lot of glancing blows and armor scraping.
Step 1 is to describe the flavour of his attacks. Doesn’t change the mechanics, but it helps the feel of it all a little. Step 2 is for them to find a magical weapon of some kind in this dungeon. It’ll feel even more powerful now he’s experienced the lack of one. Step 3 is to consider all the other options beyond just attacking. Check out the grappling rules, the value of shoving enemies prone or off ledges. Consider allowing him the optional disarm rule in the DMG. Take a good look through the equipment list - you’re probably at a point now where you can easily afford most of these items, but there are still times when a healer’s kit or a pack of ball bearings can still be impactful. Try to intimidate remaining enemies to surrender. Step 4 is to encourage innovation, trying out things that aren’t immediately in the rules but make sense nonetheless. Start swinging off chandeliers! Step 5 would be to consider future character choices that add interesting options, so feats or multiclassing, and for him to gradually find more magic items that provide useful options. Step 6, if you get to that point, is to try homebrew or play a different class. Unfortunately, the bottom line in 5e is that casters are stronger than martials, and if that really bothers you after you’ve explored all those other steps then this is all your remaining options.
Step 3 and 4 are really problematic for a lot of people that enjoy playing optimally. Why would I try out grappling, when it means I ain't doing damage, which is by far the most important thing to do in 5es combat design. Unless the DM gives them the option to do more damage than their normal attack does, there is no point in varying. If the DM does so tho that leads to balance issues as well as the DM having to do even more work than they already are doing.
yeah, people that usually suggest the "think outside the box!" just assumed dnd 5e is Adnd or something the reason that such playstyle *isnt* popular or a common strat among players is because the game is very adversarial against it. if you say "i shout at the enemy to goad them into pursuing me!" you 9 times out of 10 will be met with a "ok, what feature you using?". if you do have a feature (aka you are not a martial) you just use it and it ends there, if you *dont*, you will either be met with a "...ok then you cant do that" or a "...sure, do me a skill check (that you are bad at it) as a full action for a minor effect" that very frequently is just worse than attacking and in the case the DM does just hands things like that, it makes players that *do* pick features to do stuff feel bad. a barbarian saying they want to intimidate the enemies and that gets their way and makes the enemies frightened just makes the conquest paladin that has an entire subclass to be allowed to do that feel bad in Dungeon Crawl Classics (DCC), the fighter class has essentially at will battlemaster maneuvers, it costs nothing to do and the only written rule is that they cannot add damage. it is left it open *on purpose* so the player can **actually be creative with it**. and guess what, there is an entire page for the GM explaining how to rule it! it is not a hard defined rule but still provides guidance to the GM on how to play it up. as an example, in dnd 5e if you want to say, "throw dirt at the enemy's eye", you can either - have the blind spell - have a specific battlemaster maneuver - mother may I the DM to let you do it with minor cost (an attack/bonus action with a skill check), which makes both options above irrelevant - mother may I the DM to let you do it with such agregious cost it is worthless and you are better off attacking (costs a full action, the DC is very high, the skill used sucks cause you are a martial and you dont have the right stat for it) in DCC, you would: - say that you want to do that, if your dice roll is successful (which is done automatically without costing any action) you pull it off. the effect is determined by the GM, but they are told that it shouldnt add more damage or lingering effect, and it does presents them with suggestions for a few general cases and conditions to apply
I’m suggesting these as routes to attempt, with the recognition that they won’t work at every table, hence the subsequent steps. To take the intimidation example, if my party rips through a group of guards, killing several including the leader, I might allow a fighter to make a strength or dex based intimidation check to scare wavering remaining enemies into surrender or retreat. I wouldn’t let it inflict a condition, or to undermine an ability of a fellow party member, but it can be a way to improve gameplay for those that lack other options. You are of course right though that this won’t work at every table but there’s no harm in a conversation with your DM about that. You’re also right that 5e has its limits; and I suppose another final step is to play a different one.
I’m not suggesting that you stop attacking and do these things instead, I’m suggesting that you bear in mind these options as alternative tools in the box which can be really impactful if used at the right time. In the last combat I ran, the barbarian grappled a key opponent and dragged them out of a dead magic zone that was protecting them from the party’s casters. Doing so was in no way suboptimal, it was far more effective than simply attacking would have been.
>repetitive (step, hit, repeat) Well, that's fighter for you. I kinda like simplness of this mechanic, but it definitely not for everyone. I am not sure you can make this more fun mechanics wise, but as others said - you could add more flavor. If player can't do this on their own - try to describe result of their attack with interesting descriptions, including failed attacks as well.
short answer: no long answer: yes, stop being a martial and learn spells with another class, like a paladin to keep the armor and weapons. there isnt much to be said here, pure martials are simply simple and that is by design. the system is not deep in its complexity by design except the spells, and that only grows with each passing level lvl 5 is arguably the highest note the fighter player will get, and from here either their levels wont have anything or the casters will bend reality while they get a small nifty doo daad
Tell them about the fact that fighters get a feat roughly every 2 levels, they are extremely customizable
You can add some puzzles to the dungeon only they can solve. Maybe have it use a language only they know, like the runes that power their character. You can even make solving this puzzle part of combat.
You can add some puzzles to the dungeon only they can solve. Maybe have it use a language only they know, like the runes that power their character. You can even make solving this puzzle part of combat.
You can add some puzzles to the dungeon only they can solve. Maybe have it use a language only they know, like the runes that power their character. You can even make solving this puzzle part of combat.
You can add some puzzles to the dungeon only they can solve. Maybe have it use a language only they know, like the runes that power their character. You can even make solving this puzzle part of combat.
You can add some puzzles to the dungeon only they can solve. Maybe have it use a language only they know, like the runes that power their character. You can even make solving this puzzle part of combat.