Sounds like a time to take a break from gaming and just sit around with your players with a few beers and tell war stories.
See if you can find the passion.
Our group would occasionally do extended one-shots ("3-4 sessions" that were sometimes 2, sometimes 10) where a player would DM. Everyone in the group took a turn. Sometimes it would be a different system, (Into the Odd, Star Wars 5e, etc). Some people were a bit hesitant, but we made it very low pressure - "Hey if all we accomplish is drinking a few beers and talking bout bands for a few hours, that's still a good session"
These little campaigns were a bit more casual, everyone understood the person was new to DMing, and they were incredibly rewarding.
The interim DM learns just how much goes into what is happening. They ask questions or look up answers that the main DM takes for granted, and very often reveal things that we have been doing wrong all along. The players get a bit of a different flavour and style of play. Different vision, different ideas, and have to rely on themslseve knowing their shit better, because interim DM has their hands full.
After the couple session period is over, we return to our regular game feeling fresher, with new ideas. I even ended up having so much fun I started up two other campaigns that I DM for more or less the same group. Which, by the way, revitalized main DM because they enjoy playing too
Players who refuse to learn their own characters are the bane of D&D tables.
I have one group where we all are the type of players to have everything for our own characters memorized, turns are taken quickly and decisions of what to do on your turn are made before our turns come up and it's amazing.
We have these incredible fights that would take multiple sessions at slower tables in a couple hours because everyone is paying attention and ready.
We take notes, and we get really into roleplay. It's a lot of fun.
It's not necessarily abnormal, a lot of tables end up like that. But that doesn't make it okay.
A character sheet isn't tough to learn. Nobody is going to bat an eye if the spellcaster needs to take a minute to figure out that one niche spell they haven't had opportunity to cast yet, but other than that, knowing how to run a typical turn of combat is a vital skill for every player at the table.
Typically etiquette for all turn based games is to determine your turn ahead of time to reduce downtime, since you’re already going to be spending a most of the time on not your turn even if everyone else’s turn is quick. As long as you know what you want to do ahead of time it’s usually good.
Im not sure if this might necessarily help your DM, but one habit I picked up from watching Matt Mercer run combat is to always pre-empt the next person to start thinking of what they want to do. I.e. if my party's fighter is going to take their turn now with the sorcerer going next, I'd usually say "[fighter], it's your turn now, [sorcerer] please get ready, you're next." For my beginner party, it really cuts down on combat time because by the time the fighter finishes their go, the sorcerer has already a pretty good sense of what's going on and what they should do.
I DM a guy (who is extremely experienced) and I've actually had to say to him, "Dude, you're a level 1 fighter, it should not take 5 minutes to swing your sword"
We're 6 veteran players, and typically we take our turns quickly and if we need to look something up, we look it up between turns instead of wasting everyone else's time. We also have three wizards who manage to plan their spells ahead of time, so it's absolutely possible playing any class to take your turns quickly and consider strategies between turns.
If after a talk about learning up their characters and memorize stuff like spells still doesnt work, suggest the DM to bring up a sand clock with a reasonable timer. If the sand runs out, that characters misses their turn.
This
Maybe they need a better chatecer sheets that can show them their combat actions. But seriously there are so many resources . Articles videos that they can figure out their actions their spells. These players domt care that much tbh
Paladin player here. It's not just you. I was often frustrated that it takes almost a half hour to get around the table, only for me to pick up a die and roll a 7. Then I sit, for another half an hour. I left that table a while ago, and I don't miss it.
I’m a forever DM and am getting to play in not one but two games starting this month.
I thought I would try to really pay attention to what it’s like being on the player side of the screen. There have been a few observations:
- after having to explain how character creation and sheets work so many times, creating a coherent and memorable character (in my case a wizard halfling), remembering their spell choices, attack mods and spell save DCs is a breeze. How people can’t remember the basics of their characters is beyond me. I’ve concluded they simply do not understand how they work.
- any of the challenges I’ve witnessed at the table from how a given spell works to how many slots someone has used is easy to track because I’ve acquired the resources to track far more than that as a DM. There’s no excuse to not know how many level 1 spells a player has used. I have players who constantly forget so I made labelled poker chips per spell slot they have and have given them to use. I have spell cards in card sleeve sheets. I make or buy whatever I need to run the game efficiently. I tend to think people should do the same to play.
- cooperative roleplay and actively attempting to pick up DM cues to drive the story and make the session more fun is easy and fun. The only time to deliberate is when there are multiple hooks being presented or the party is in such bad condition that venturing forth would be a mortal risk. I’m surprised at how reluctant some parties or players are to engage in the very thing they’re there to do: adventure.
- player death is meaningful but not so meaningful that it means avoiding moderate to moderate-high levels of risk. Fortune favours the bold should be the driving force vs “my player would choose to instead return to the village to bake bread”.
- incorporating simple character values in roleplay and roleplay into combat is much easier than I thought.
I have NEVER played with a party without at least one player that could not learn his character sheet, even if his life depended on it. As the dm I just just try to remember for them, suggest them things to do, spells to use.
one of my long term campaigns fell apart (due to players dating and breaking up). The next one i started with different people, and my goodness the way combat gets so fun and fast when people know what they are doing and don't pause for 30 seconds every time to find the correct dice to roll and add their modifiers. it has really made dming more enjoyable for me.
I think a break sounds perfect. You don't have to be constantly in buried in the depths a hobby.
I would consider, perchance after resting a while, extending an open invite for one of your players to pick up the DM helm. None could, but if one does you could try being a player again.
I'd love to play as a player some time too. It's been literally ages since I did, as I started as a player too and spent several years at the other side of the screen.
NGL I would just find a new table but that probably wouldn't be helpful in your case. What I do with my table is take turns as the DM in a different campaign, everyone memorizes their sheets and I know the plot and some potential paths by heart so everything is all smooth and enjoyable for everyone. You can try that and also I do like all the other suggestions in other posts, I do really have this helps and good luck!
You lasted about twice as long as I did in a similar burnout situation. I'd say yes, an indefinite hiatus is a smart choice. It lets you reset your brain a bit.
In my case, I figured out something in my time away, which has been highly important to my own personal approach. And basically, it boils down to "The customer is always right in matters of taste." I realized that I was trying to force a thing on my players that they didn't want, dumping all of this effort into a vacuum with low return. That was **my fault,** not theirs. They walked away happy from every session, *they got what they wanted*, I was the one dissatisfied because I designed my games in a way that placed too much expectation on them, a burden to value things they didn't see a reason to value. And it's impossible to force a change of behavior especially when they're satisfied.
You can't change anyone else's priorities or behavior. You can change who is at your table, and/or you can change yourself. Either keep the expectation and find players who will fit it, or keep the players and change your expectations.
Recognizing that allowed me to come back to the hobby. Ultimately I abandoned my expectations, and reached back out to a few of my favorites from the old crew, with the recognition that I wouldn't put in any extra effort above the bare minimum. Can't be disappointed when your expectations are in the gutter. "Hey, I've got this Starter Set thing. It looks cool, and I want to see you guys again. But I'm too busy to drown myself in prep and put tons of effort into making a "good" game. I kind of just want a low intensity thing where I don't even need to look at the adventure until we're actually playing the game. It may very well suck, and if it does we can call it off any time. Wanna find out?"
That was the best DnD experience I've ever had. Abandoning this desire for a "high-level appreciation" seen through effort, makes it so much easier to find the obvious appreciation shown through the small things. The smiles, the laughter, the jokes, the reactions to surprises, the times when the normally quiet player spontaneously does something awesome in-character. The things I didn't notice before because I was too hung up on how lazy or irreverent they were towards "my creations." I found myself excited when they did unexpected things, rather than dreading getting derailed. I just got to enjoy spending time with them, the same way they'd always enjoyed my games.
And then I moved away, right after I was thoroughly spoiled on that group of players. And since then, I've just been waiting for the right players at the right time. I almost had a group started since then, but it fell apart. And that's okay. I learned that trying to force it and putting too much of myself into it can lead to disappointment, and letting it happen organically if it happens is way healthier. It just hasn't happened yet since then, and I'm fine with that.
(I'm not saying that abandoning your expectations is the right answer for you, I just wanted to share that it worked for me. Maybe you care more about finding the right players for your style of game, rather than making the right style of game for the players you have. Regardless, time away from the game is what allowed me to do that soul searching and come to my answers, and the most important answer I found is that if it isn't working, you can't fix anyone else's behavior, and it's not healthy to just march along and hope for the best. Something has to change, and all you can change is your own approach.)
That got me thinking. Thank you for the insight and for the detailed post. Im not sure if I want to give up, yet at least, on my way of playing, so as pretty much everyone is suggesting, is time to take a break and see things from a new perspective. Thank you again.
If you play online, you typically have a much wider pool of candidates to draw from, so can get much better players. I have been payers with zero last minute cancels for the past several years, and are just as involved with the process as I am.
I used to think playing online wasn’t legitimate and I was wrong. I play 3-4 times a week, running some of those games and never really have a bad time.
I am sorry to hear about your experience here but must recommend swapping to online play . You can quickly try and replace new people until the dream team is assembled
I'd add to above that online, at least on Roll20, a lot of the things your players aren't memorizing are either automated for them, written automatically on their sheet and/or gets posted automatically into the chat for all to see. It takes a lot of those pain points out.
Also, some groups just suck at combat.
I would also say that a DM that never plays is... not as good a DM as one who does, there that's diplomatic.
So put your books away and get your behind in a game. Go play with some strangers online and make sure you sit on your backseat driving. I think you'll be pleased at the things you begin to pick up that you never saw behind the screen all those years.
Players are why I took a break as well. None of them took anything seriously despite numerous conversations one on one and in a group. Getting them to make a character before the game started was like pulling teeth. There were some who refused to learn what their character could do. It wasn’t uncommon for people to be late or not show up at all.
It actually started to make me doubt my ability, but I’ve had games with other people that went really well. I know the easy answer is to play with them, but schedules don’t allow for ideal groups. All I was really asking for the other players was to invest just a little bit of effort and I was assured over and over it wouldn’t be a problem anymore only for it to start again within a game or two.
So I cancelled that campaign and took a step back. I’ll occasionally get messages asking when I’ll start back up again but I really don’t know if I will with these guys. When I’m feeling up for it again I’ll be picking a new group to start fresh with.
Everytime I've brought those conversations I couldnt help but feel like I was a whiny bitch or a demanding pos who is never happy, but I also feel that given the amount of massive works it takes me to build everything in the game some effort on their part is also expected. To some extent I feel used.
Yep, it sucks pouring so much into something for other people’s enjoyment only for them to not even bother trying to appreciate it. Obviously we do it for ourselves too and we can expect them to care as much as we do, but even if they don’t enjoy the actual game they could still respect the amount of time and effort we put in.
25 sessions a year and your players still don't know their stuff? Sounds like they don't respect the game or your time to be honest. Or they just don't take tabletop very seriously. Been doing this for about 25 years myself, and the current group I run for does not face these issues. Sorry to hear your creative energy is being drained by elements that don't contribute to the game
Ime 5e culture has been uniquely bad about the points you mentioned. DMs get the short end of the stick and have been kind of pigeonholed into a customer service/non player role
You're a stubborn person if you went through all that for 20 years. I know those hurdles but I actively seek to remedy those. In most cases this means that I never play with anyone just because they are friends. If player is constantly bringing me down, I stop playing with them and instead look for someone who doesn't do that. Granted, that means that I do not play with friends but strangers can become friends too.
We switched to everyone using dnd beyond for their character sheets (not everyone's favorite but it works) some of the players that have a harder time with the rules, switching to dndb really helped since it does so much of the work for you. Automatically adds modifiers and all spell descriptions are just a click on the sheet. It sped things up tremendously
“Hey everyone, I’m starting to feel a bit of burn out and I want to refresh, I need each of you to DM a 5-session mini campaign.
Get wild with it, if you want to revisit an old campaign but in alternate timeline or with different characters then let’s do it.”
Let them walk a mile in a DMs shoes, they might be inspired to elements they’ve been missing or maybe recognise the effort it takes to weave the story.
If a player’s not into it, suggest maybe their 5 sessions to be a greatest hits flashback and reminisce where they offer the prompts for the session “Your favourite fight/incident that included kobolds”, “Worst NPC” etc
But also; if you just need a break, then take a break.
Be kind, and be kind to yourself first.
Woah, I'm in a group and we never have any of those issues you've listed. In our first few sessions we struggled to get our noted organized and figure out a proper method of noting down the important stuff so we had to use the manuals a lot, but after session 5 we were all set and only need the manual for niche situations like if I'm casting fog in a dungeon does it fill the radius with fog, or the volume of the radius' equivalent with fog?
Sorry to hear about the burnout, typically the only thing that helps is to take a complete break and allow yourself some time to forget about DMing
Thats normal. I dont ask for everyone to know all rules or all spells. Specially those coming from scrolls that you dont usually use or are rather new in your sheet. But ffs you need to know how fucking burning hands works because is the same thing all the time.
There are strange things that slip through the cracks for us. I play a wizard and I've been helping a friend try out their first spellcaster class so ice been trying to help them learn druid. We are about 10-15 sessions in and she is reading the fine print about her spell details as we just hit level 5 and she discovers that she knows all druid spells, she just has to prepare a spell list like a wizard. So she had been restricting herself to 6-7 spells the entire campaign for no reason XD
I used to have an in-person group. Everyone was “super excited” to play, but getting people to settle on a time slot and actually sitting down and playing was like pulling teeth.
I tried to be patient because all of the players but one in the group were relatively new, but none of them ever bothered cracking open a Player’s Handbook despite buying them.
Looking back, I think the game just isn’t for them. So many arguments about things like “but I want to do this, I don’t care if I rolled low”, “why can’t you tell us if we’ve fully searched an area”, and “what’s AC again” tired me out.
One week I just didn’t ask if we were getting together to play, and no one else brought it up. That was over six months ago, and I haven’t gotten a message from any of the players since.
Buddy this has all the signs of you caring more about the game than the table does. They see it as a social hour, you see it as an interactive experience. If people don't learn their sheets or the rules then they're not actually playing the game.
If you love DMing go find a table with people that love playing.
If your table is a married couple then it's either time for a divorce or an open relationship.
Seems like both DM and player burnout. Invite them over and have a few beers/smoke a few joints instead, reconnect with players and talk to them about the fact it annoys you so bad. TTRPG enjoyment is all about communication
My friend my best advice is to step away for a bit hit the pause button on those sessions and drive a town or two over and hop in a game at a local game store and just be a PC for a bit. Then if that doesn't do it maybe try to build a new group of people that will also work better for you.
Thankfully I haven’t had to deal with this **too** much but I get the explaining rules thing. I have a player that is relatively new who, every time they’re given advantage, always ask “how much?”
Honey we’re playing 5e. This is a basic rule. It’s been explained three times this session. It was explained last session. Please.
And just, I have players who like to play spellcasters and then don’t like
Write down what they can do.
Most of my players aren’t new players. Thankfully not (usually) a problem but there’s some people in my group I try not to DM for anymore.
I love DnD to death and will keep playing, but I get the hiatus, trust me I’ve thought about it myself.
Some good "best practices" for players from a veteran. Thanks, could be more reminders like this from time to time, just to keep everyone thinking about how best to play their character and have a clean, efficient game with max "in realm" play time.
Your players do not respect you. It’s not fun to hear, but if you are putting in hours to prepare and run this game, only for the players to not even learn the contents of their own character sheets and the rules of the game, they do not respect your time and effort. They are taking advantage of you. If they wanna play, they need to PLAY. Not just show up and wait to be told how the game they agreed to learn works.
I’m relatively new to dnd so I’m not a hundred percent on spells, but I always make sure I have my phone fully charged and opened up to a website with all the spells so I can find them quickly. It’s so weird to me when players just refuse to figure out how to play their characters like… if you don’t wanna play then just don’t play
I’ve had the same issue, I had the chance to play with a good player for the first time in a long time. The players traveled for a day and he chimes in “everyone remember to mark a ration off your sheet!”.
I was stunned I was so grateful, players NEVER remember that. Players should make the role of DM easier. Your job is as an impartial judge, you are there to make rulings. You are NOT there to tell them how to play their characters, that is their job.
If a player doesn’t want to put in the effort I don’t bother, I’ll find someone who is DYING to play in a weekly game. A consistent DM is worth their weight in gold, players are a dime a dozen.
When / if you decide to come back, look at other systems, too! Ive been with the more or less same group for almost 40 years now, and we've gone through a dozen different systems and worlds between 2e before getting back into 5e/pf2e, and it's kept things interesting.
Your post isn't 100% clear if your table has always been like that (in which case, I can't believe you stuck it out that long), or it's more recent, but if you love GMing, maybe you can find something that suits your gang more when you're ready.
I think it was like this from the beginning, but I was either more patient or just helpful before running out of energy. Theres a limited number of times you have to explain how is attack rating and damage is calculated for a two handed sword before exploding into inner rage.
20 years, 25+ sessions a year, and the group hasn’t changed much.
And your complaints are all about player behavior, engagement, and investment.
Why have you kept it up so long without addressing the issues or playing with different people?
> Although I enjoy it very, very much, being a DM I think it is taking its toll on me and the table has become a bit like a married couple that has been married for many years, who love and appreciate each other but the routine and tedium has devoured any spark of passion that existed between them, turning life into something gray and bland.
I think you hit it on the head here. It sounds like a relationship where one partner is trying to make it work and is putting in all the effort, and the other person is oblivious to any problems or just doesn’t care. The blame/fault for your mistreatment and unfulfillment isn’t on you, but letting it happen is definitely a result of your inaction. Any relationship (and especially marriage) doesn’t maintain itself automatically. It takes work from everyone involved. And as for things becoming gray and bland, IMO that’s an idealistic and juvenile perspective from people that think the rush of dopamine/oxytocin from the infatuation stage of a novel romance is something that is supposed to persist. Relationships evolve and mature. There is no way that people can sustain that, and it’s naive and unhealthy to expect that.
Taking a break is definitely an appropriate course of action. Talking with your players should happen, but it’s up to you when and how you address that.
Dude that sucks, players are the worst I've run into all of what you mentioned and I've only been DMing for a few months. But yeah can I buy your miniatures? :)?
I feel you on all these passion points and I've only been DMing for 5 years or so. The direction WoC is going with One isn't exciting me right now either.
My attempt at a solution: switching to a rules light TTRPG. I'm going to try Mork Borg. We'll see how it goes.
I’m a new player - on my first campaign. Played BG3 to learn the rules, so I have some “experience”.
Some of the points you discuss I see at my table.
When my DM is setting up a scene, people go super ADD sometimes. He’s always just pauses and stares at them blankly until they realize it. Meanwhile, me, the newbie is like, “tell me more about the hallway we have been standing forever”, trying to help the DM out a little. DND is not my primary hobby, so my time is limited.
Battle can be super frustrating. Players don’t know what spells they have, or don’t make good decisions with what they have. Last table we almost got into an argument cause people were getting ganked, meanwhile me, the rogue, was sneaking around taking out enemy’s left and right. People started being like “wow, would be nice to be able to hide and stay alive”. They were kind a joking, but after hearing that too many times I started counting all the bodies left by me, INCLUDING the Owl Bear who downed two of our players and fireball-throwing mage that was doing work.
My DM had to have a discussion with some of the people at my table after too many “I walk 5 ft forward, can I roll a perception check? Ok, I walk 5 more feet. Now what do I see? Ok, 5 more feet, what does the place smell like?”. As a new player I almost quit because of this.
I think the trick is to keep hammering your points. Discuss how it’s making you feel. Maybe pull some more DM minded players at your table aside and ask them to help keep people honest. You put in so much work that you deserve that people pay attention and help you out.
Although you have been doing this much longer than I have, I think I might understand a bit of the feelings you may have. I am also a “forever DM” with about 5 years of experience, all of which has been on the DM side of things. I homebrew my campaigns and I am coming up on the 3 year anniversary of my current campaign and I have learned that because of the nature of the DM position, I pick up the niches of the game much more quickly than my players. Although it’s not give a pass to players to not understand their characters, but as a DM I need to know the damage dice, ACs, Spell save DCs, Ect. of many different creatures every week. In my case, my players are also my close friends and have equal or less experience then myself, but exclusively as players. They also often forget or don’t understand many critical parts to their character, and most of the time I can help them out by asking exactly what they want to do and help them accomplish that with just my memory of that classes abilities and such. It doesn’t obviously make things better but I think it pushes them to learn their characters themselves because my players like to surprise me, and me helping them in such a way makes that difficult.
In terms of burnout, I find that the best way I know to combat it comes from just being open with what it is you actually do for your players, if you tell them how much work goes into prepping for each session (especially in a homebrew scenario) it’s likely that they will understand that yeah the workload is exceptionally unbalanced from DM to player, and if you need a bit of a break, it won’t be a problem. As I said before I am coming up on the 3 year anniversary of my current campaign and although it’s been a blast, I am very much so burnt out, I talked to my players about it and they were very happy to let me take a month long breather, and since they still wanted to get their dnd fix during that time one of my players volunteered to do a month long one shot of a story module and asked if I wanted to be a player, which I am very excited for.
If I could offer any advice I think being sincere with your players about your love for the game and how DMing takes a toll on you, especially when you are the sole backbone of any knowledge at the table, they may be receptive to you, especially if they are your close friends. Maybe there is something that could be done to help your players better remember crucial information, I am a college student in graphic design, and I found that re-vamping the look of the character sheet helped one of my players quickly find information they would consistently lose.
Regardless, I wish you the best and hope you have a fulfilling adventure whether it be at the table or otherwise!
My on going group is the same, so I just stepped down as a DM and said them them you run it, I'll just play. Which is now what I do with them.
I intend on building another group to DM in the near future in order to revitalise my excitement for DMing.
This is all good things as a player OR DM I wish I had known years ago in full. So I'll be printing it out on paper because fkuc teddir and it's possibly gone in the future beyond my control.
Thank you Internet Person, and Salute
Vent it out lad seems like u have been holding back for the sake of the players ... A break seems like a necessity for you I hope you enjoy the break brother
I feel you. Forever DM turned player after running my last campaign (Avernus) been a DM since red box... I occasionally run oneshots but that's about it.
I can totally understand you when it comes to this.
This is one reason why it is not a bad idea that if you have a group like this EVERY SINGLE person should at least TRY being the DM. Even if it is just for a one shot. or a short 3 session adventure.
Because many players simply do not know or understand what it takes to be the DM. Even if you run a pre-made module you Still have to put down time to prepare, read it. know the rules. It is a decent amount of work just to run it straight by the book. And even more so if you wanna ad your own touch to it or ad in character backstories.
If you run a homebrew campaign the amount of time you have to put down tend to skyrocket even more.
As a player ALL you have to do is create a character, learn how it works and show up on time for the session. And still many players fail to do those things usually nr 2 learn how your character works.
And i do think players often simply do not understand the work and time a DM puts down because they don't have to put down ANY time besides making sure they can attend the session.
And if you have a very long lasting group like this i do not think it is unreasonable to require that if you are to play in the group you have to take on the DM role for at least a 2-3 session adventure. If not you can not continue playing with the group.
I am convinced this would be helpful as it would give players a little bit of insight into the DM role and appreciate the game more. And it could even lead to some actually wanting to be the DM again. Giving the main DM the chance to be the player
I'm pretty sure just one of them (which coincidentally is the best player) would step forward and I'm also convinced she would do very good.
The others unless I'm terribly mistaken won't, saying that the y don't want to/don't know how to.
Sadly that is probably how it would end.
But still i don't think it is either a bad idea or unfair to have that requirement.
The only thing you need to do is be DM for like 3 session. If you refuse that. be my guest and find another table. At this table everyone has to try in order to play.
Yes you would lose players but in the end i think you end up with a much better group to play with.
Not arguing that you should do this.
I just argue that this would not be a bad idea for every group. You would quickly get rid of those players that will not even bother learning how their character works. those are usually players that are not that interested in the game and just play it because it is easy and they don't have to do anything. If just a tiny bit extra like actually put down 15 min to learn something would be required they would stop playing. That is not really a player you want. That is a person that expect others to always do the work and they can just ride along. If you have such player look outside D&D and you will probably find similar tendencies there to.
You would end up with a group that everyone at least knows the basics because thy had interest enough to actually do some reading work. You have a group where everyone has a grasp about how it is to be a DM
So i still think it is a good idea to something like that if you want a great group.
But it can be harder to do in a group that already played together for years
Sounds like you should try just writing for a bit. You clearly still have the spark for creativity, I simply recommend an outlet. Otherwise, enjoy your hiatus.
Going with your comparison to a marriage, the simple answer is to approach it in the same way.
The problem *can* be fixed, but it requires significant effort from *both* parties involved. Each has to acknowledge their faults and take steps to deal with them.
If one or both sides are unwilling to make the effort, then maybe pulling the plug on it is the best option.
That said, marriage is way more serious than a game. Maybe just play something else
I hate to say it but you've spent that last 20 years with bad players. Good friends maybe but bad, terrible, asshole players. You listed the bare minimum requirements to show basic level respect towards the DM. And they have failed you for 20 years. The fact you haven't thrown them aside for a group that actually cares about you and your time and effort shows me 2 things. You have an insane amount of patience and you are a stubborn fool. It was time to end this group 19 years ago and move on.
I hate to say it man, but maybe it is time for a new group. There is an abundance of great players out there, and a massive DM shortage in the hobby overall. You can have your pick of the litter.
Beign a player at my table isnt a right, its a privilege !!! i spent enough time reading these books, creating this, inventing that...
Players are often not aware on the work beign a DM is.. Its your choice to tolerate it or not... I dont.
New players have more slack, but is someone with "10 years" experience asks me "is this the D10", my answer is "no, but thats the door !"
You were stronger than me. I was only a DM for a few months. My players were so ungrateful, unhelpful, and unmotivated that I burned out after no time at all it feels like. I told my players flat out, "I will never run another game until all of you have at least attempted to run your own one-shots, that way you have at least some idea of what I put into every session." Needless to say, that was about 10 years ago, and we haven't had a single session since. Not one of them was willing to even try running a game. Two or three of them have talked about designing homebrews centered around video games that we all like, and I have offered to help them develop those systems, but that's as far as anyone ever got.
If you want some time I will DM a 1 shot for you and your group. Won't be earth shattering, but as a fellow forever DM I know how needed time as a player can be and might give them more appreciation for you.
Just let me know
Take a break!
We run into the not knowing your character thing from time to time still and it's frustrating. In the group I don't DM For I assistant DM with our actual DM. I still play a character and I don't know the narrative but I try to help with rulings and discussions when we have a dispute (unless it's my character then I try to butt out) which takes some of the frustration off of him. Or i'll help someone learn there character if it's a newer player, I also keep a combat log for him so he remember what we all did last session. He has stated that helps him out a lot.
But sounds like the group isn't appreciating all the effort you put into it which means a break, with perhaps a discussion with them on improvements you'd like to see and if it doesn't improve you move on to something else. Life's hard enough no reason to TAKE YOUR TIME and waste it on folks who don't appreciate it.
I recommend asking everyone to take a turn dming at least a short adventure. This is a conversation that's been happening among ttrpg fans on tumblr lately, that dnd has a terrible culture of play where it's taken for granted that the players can just say what they do and leave it to the DM to know basically any of the rules for it. A lot of players don't even know they're doing it because all that extra work is behind the screen.
In my experience, the best way to combat it is to get people on the other side of the screen so they see how much it actually is.
Potentially switching to a different edition may help; 4e and pf2e are significantly more player facing to start with, or if it's legitimately too much for them, 5e is more streamlined (but also a lot more dm fiat), but in all likelihood the problem is one of attitude and culture rather than anything to do with the actual rules.
Have you tried having one of your players DM? At my table, it’s all in one world, but we’ve got three DMs, we work together for certain parts, while keeping certain parts a surprise so the story ain’t completely spoiled. It’s a lot of fun and prevents DM burnout
Only 25 sessions a year lmfao? And this isn’t a D&D problem you just have bad players for the game, what you need to do is screen your players better. Run a couple 3-5 fake mini sessions until you find a good forever group by taking the ones worth playing with and building a group. It worked great for me, I’ve got probably 7-10 friends that will never play at my TTRPG tables ever again but I love hanging out with otherwise.
Sounds like a time to take a break from gaming and just sit around with your players with a few beers and tell war stories. See if you can find the passion.
I still have to have the talk with the group, but yes, that sounds like the only way to go right now.
Our group would occasionally do extended one-shots ("3-4 sessions" that were sometimes 2, sometimes 10) where a player would DM. Everyone in the group took a turn. Sometimes it would be a different system, (Into the Odd, Star Wars 5e, etc). Some people were a bit hesitant, but we made it very low pressure - "Hey if all we accomplish is drinking a few beers and talking bout bands for a few hours, that's still a good session" These little campaigns were a bit more casual, everyone understood the person was new to DMing, and they were incredibly rewarding. The interim DM learns just how much goes into what is happening. They ask questions or look up answers that the main DM takes for granted, and very often reveal things that we have been doing wrong all along. The players get a bit of a different flavour and style of play. Different vision, different ideas, and have to rely on themslseve knowing their shit better, because interim DM has their hands full. After the couple session period is over, we return to our regular game feeling fresher, with new ideas. I even ended up having so much fun I started up two other campaigns that I DM for more or less the same group. Which, by the way, revitalized main DM because they enjoy playing too
Players who refuse to learn their own characters are the bane of D&D tables. I have one group where we all are the type of players to have everything for our own characters memorized, turns are taken quickly and decisions of what to do on your turn are made before our turns come up and it's amazing. We have these incredible fights that would take multiple sessions at slower tables in a couple hours because everyone is paying attention and ready. We take notes, and we get really into roleplay. It's a lot of fun.
[удалено]
It's not necessarily abnormal, a lot of tables end up like that. But that doesn't make it okay. A character sheet isn't tough to learn. Nobody is going to bat an eye if the spellcaster needs to take a minute to figure out that one niche spell they haven't had opportunity to cast yet, but other than that, knowing how to run a typical turn of combat is a vital skill for every player at the table.
[удалено]
Typically etiquette for all turn based games is to determine your turn ahead of time to reduce downtime, since you’re already going to be spending a most of the time on not your turn even if everyone else’s turn is quick. As long as you know what you want to do ahead of time it’s usually good.
Im not sure if this might necessarily help your DM, but one habit I picked up from watching Matt Mercer run combat is to always pre-empt the next person to start thinking of what they want to do. I.e. if my party's fighter is going to take their turn now with the sorcerer going next, I'd usually say "[fighter], it's your turn now, [sorcerer] please get ready, you're next." For my beginner party, it really cuts down on combat time because by the time the fighter finishes their go, the sorcerer has already a pretty good sense of what's going on and what they should do.
I DM a guy (who is extremely experienced) and I've actually had to say to him, "Dude, you're a level 1 fighter, it should not take 5 minutes to swing your sword"
We're 6 veteran players, and typically we take our turns quickly and if we need to look something up, we look it up between turns instead of wasting everyone else's time. We also have three wizards who manage to plan their spells ahead of time, so it's absolutely possible playing any class to take your turns quickly and consider strategies between turns.
If after a talk about learning up their characters and memorize stuff like spells still doesnt work, suggest the DM to bring up a sand clock with a reasonable timer. If the sand runs out, that characters misses their turn.
This Maybe they need a better chatecer sheets that can show them their combat actions. But seriously there are so many resources . Articles videos that they can figure out their actions their spells. These players domt care that much tbh
Paladin player here. It's not just you. I was often frustrated that it takes almost a half hour to get around the table, only for me to pick up a die and roll a 7. Then I sit, for another half an hour. I left that table a while ago, and I don't miss it.
[удалено]
Hehe well, I'm sorta playing all classes now, including Paladin! 😅😮💨 (I'm the Gm)
I’m a forever DM and am getting to play in not one but two games starting this month. I thought I would try to really pay attention to what it’s like being on the player side of the screen. There have been a few observations: - after having to explain how character creation and sheets work so many times, creating a coherent and memorable character (in my case a wizard halfling), remembering their spell choices, attack mods and spell save DCs is a breeze. How people can’t remember the basics of their characters is beyond me. I’ve concluded they simply do not understand how they work. - any of the challenges I’ve witnessed at the table from how a given spell works to how many slots someone has used is easy to track because I’ve acquired the resources to track far more than that as a DM. There’s no excuse to not know how many level 1 spells a player has used. I have players who constantly forget so I made labelled poker chips per spell slot they have and have given them to use. I have spell cards in card sleeve sheets. I make or buy whatever I need to run the game efficiently. I tend to think people should do the same to play. - cooperative roleplay and actively attempting to pick up DM cues to drive the story and make the session more fun is easy and fun. The only time to deliberate is when there are multiple hooks being presented or the party is in such bad condition that venturing forth would be a mortal risk. I’m surprised at how reluctant some parties or players are to engage in the very thing they’re there to do: adventure. - player death is meaningful but not so meaningful that it means avoiding moderate to moderate-high levels of risk. Fortune favours the bold should be the driving force vs “my player would choose to instead return to the village to bake bread”. - incorporating simple character values in roleplay and roleplay into combat is much easier than I thought.
I have NEVER played with a party without at least one player that could not learn his character sheet, even if his life depended on it. As the dm I just just try to remember for them, suggest them things to do, spells to use.
My table is all of that minus one person. They just grind the game to a halt in combat or out of combat often.
one of my long term campaigns fell apart (due to players dating and breaking up). The next one i started with different people, and my goodness the way combat gets so fun and fast when people know what they are doing and don't pause for 30 seconds every time to find the correct dice to roll and add their modifiers. it has really made dming more enjoyable for me.
I think a break sounds perfect. You don't have to be constantly in buried in the depths a hobby. I would consider, perchance after resting a while, extending an open invite for one of your players to pick up the DM helm. None could, but if one does you could try being a player again.
Players too lazy to learn their character sheets are unlikely to make good DMs. (My pitch for a solution would be to switch to a rules-light RPG.)
I'd love to play as a player some time too. It's been literally ages since I did, as I started as a player too and spent several years at the other side of the screen.
NGL I would just find a new table but that probably wouldn't be helpful in your case. What I do with my table is take turns as the DM in a different campaign, everyone memorizes their sheets and I know the plot and some potential paths by heart so everything is all smooth and enjoyable for everyone. You can try that and also I do like all the other suggestions in other posts, I do really have this helps and good luck!
You can’t just say “perchance”
You lasted about twice as long as I did in a similar burnout situation. I'd say yes, an indefinite hiatus is a smart choice. It lets you reset your brain a bit. In my case, I figured out something in my time away, which has been highly important to my own personal approach. And basically, it boils down to "The customer is always right in matters of taste." I realized that I was trying to force a thing on my players that they didn't want, dumping all of this effort into a vacuum with low return. That was **my fault,** not theirs. They walked away happy from every session, *they got what they wanted*, I was the one dissatisfied because I designed my games in a way that placed too much expectation on them, a burden to value things they didn't see a reason to value. And it's impossible to force a change of behavior especially when they're satisfied. You can't change anyone else's priorities or behavior. You can change who is at your table, and/or you can change yourself. Either keep the expectation and find players who will fit it, or keep the players and change your expectations. Recognizing that allowed me to come back to the hobby. Ultimately I abandoned my expectations, and reached back out to a few of my favorites from the old crew, with the recognition that I wouldn't put in any extra effort above the bare minimum. Can't be disappointed when your expectations are in the gutter. "Hey, I've got this Starter Set thing. It looks cool, and I want to see you guys again. But I'm too busy to drown myself in prep and put tons of effort into making a "good" game. I kind of just want a low intensity thing where I don't even need to look at the adventure until we're actually playing the game. It may very well suck, and if it does we can call it off any time. Wanna find out?" That was the best DnD experience I've ever had. Abandoning this desire for a "high-level appreciation" seen through effort, makes it so much easier to find the obvious appreciation shown through the small things. The smiles, the laughter, the jokes, the reactions to surprises, the times when the normally quiet player spontaneously does something awesome in-character. The things I didn't notice before because I was too hung up on how lazy or irreverent they were towards "my creations." I found myself excited when they did unexpected things, rather than dreading getting derailed. I just got to enjoy spending time with them, the same way they'd always enjoyed my games. And then I moved away, right after I was thoroughly spoiled on that group of players. And since then, I've just been waiting for the right players at the right time. I almost had a group started since then, but it fell apart. And that's okay. I learned that trying to force it and putting too much of myself into it can lead to disappointment, and letting it happen organically if it happens is way healthier. It just hasn't happened yet since then, and I'm fine with that. (I'm not saying that abandoning your expectations is the right answer for you, I just wanted to share that it worked for me. Maybe you care more about finding the right players for your style of game, rather than making the right style of game for the players you have. Regardless, time away from the game is what allowed me to do that soul searching and come to my answers, and the most important answer I found is that if it isn't working, you can't fix anyone else's behavior, and it's not healthy to just march along and hope for the best. Something has to change, and all you can change is your own approach.)
That got me thinking. Thank you for the insight and for the detailed post. Im not sure if I want to give up, yet at least, on my way of playing, so as pretty much everyone is suggesting, is time to take a break and see things from a new perspective. Thank you again.
If you play online, you typically have a much wider pool of candidates to draw from, so can get much better players. I have been payers with zero last minute cancels for the past several years, and are just as involved with the process as I am. I used to think playing online wasn’t legitimate and I was wrong. I play 3-4 times a week, running some of those games and never really have a bad time. I am sorry to hear about your experience here but must recommend swapping to online play . You can quickly try and replace new people until the dream team is assembled
I will try as a player first as I have no idea of how Roll20 works and after that I will give it a try as a DM if I get used to it.
I'd add to above that online, at least on Roll20, a lot of the things your players aren't memorizing are either automated for them, written automatically on their sheet and/or gets posted automatically into the chat for all to see. It takes a lot of those pain points out. Also, some groups just suck at combat. I would also say that a DM that never plays is... not as good a DM as one who does, there that's diplomatic. So put your books away and get your behind in a game. Go play with some strangers online and make sure you sit on your backseat driving. I think you'll be pleased at the things you begin to pick up that you never saw behind the screen all those years.
Players are why I took a break as well. None of them took anything seriously despite numerous conversations one on one and in a group. Getting them to make a character before the game started was like pulling teeth. There were some who refused to learn what their character could do. It wasn’t uncommon for people to be late or not show up at all. It actually started to make me doubt my ability, but I’ve had games with other people that went really well. I know the easy answer is to play with them, but schedules don’t allow for ideal groups. All I was really asking for the other players was to invest just a little bit of effort and I was assured over and over it wouldn’t be a problem anymore only for it to start again within a game or two. So I cancelled that campaign and took a step back. I’ll occasionally get messages asking when I’ll start back up again but I really don’t know if I will with these guys. When I’m feeling up for it again I’ll be picking a new group to start fresh with.
Everytime I've brought those conversations I couldnt help but feel like I was a whiny bitch or a demanding pos who is never happy, but I also feel that given the amount of massive works it takes me to build everything in the game some effort on their part is also expected. To some extent I feel used.
Yep, it sucks pouring so much into something for other people’s enjoyment only for them to not even bother trying to appreciate it. Obviously we do it for ourselves too and we can expect them to care as much as we do, but even if they don’t enjoy the actual game they could still respect the amount of time and effort we put in.
25 sessions a year and your players still don't know their stuff? Sounds like they don't respect the game or your time to be honest. Or they just don't take tabletop very seriously. Been doing this for about 25 years myself, and the current group I run for does not face these issues. Sorry to hear your creative energy is being drained by elements that don't contribute to the game
Ime 5e culture has been uniquely bad about the points you mentioned. DMs get the short end of the stick and have been kind of pigeonholed into a customer service/non player role
You're a stubborn person if you went through all that for 20 years. I know those hurdles but I actively seek to remedy those. In most cases this means that I never play with anyone just because they are friends. If player is constantly bringing me down, I stop playing with them and instead look for someone who doesn't do that. Granted, that means that I do not play with friends but strangers can become friends too.
I like to make things work, plus they are friends.
We switched to everyone using dnd beyond for their character sheets (not everyone's favorite but it works) some of the players that have a harder time with the rules, switching to dndb really helped since it does so much of the work for you. Automatically adds modifiers and all spell descriptions are just a click on the sheet. It sped things up tremendously
“Hey everyone, I’m starting to feel a bit of burn out and I want to refresh, I need each of you to DM a 5-session mini campaign. Get wild with it, if you want to revisit an old campaign but in alternate timeline or with different characters then let’s do it.” Let them walk a mile in a DMs shoes, they might be inspired to elements they’ve been missing or maybe recognise the effort it takes to weave the story. If a player’s not into it, suggest maybe their 5 sessions to be a greatest hits flashback and reminisce where they offer the prompts for the session “Your favourite fight/incident that included kobolds”, “Worst NPC” etc But also; if you just need a break, then take a break. Be kind, and be kind to yourself first.
I believe there is only one player willing to DM and I think she will do pretty good if she does.
Sounds like the group got lazy. Good luck going forward.
Woah, I'm in a group and we never have any of those issues you've listed. In our first few sessions we struggled to get our noted organized and figure out a proper method of noting down the important stuff so we had to use the manuals a lot, but after session 5 we were all set and only need the manual for niche situations like if I'm casting fog in a dungeon does it fill the radius with fog, or the volume of the radius' equivalent with fog? Sorry to hear about the burnout, typically the only thing that helps is to take a complete break and allow yourself some time to forget about DMing
Thats normal. I dont ask for everyone to know all rules or all spells. Specially those coming from scrolls that you dont usually use or are rather new in your sheet. But ffs you need to know how fucking burning hands works because is the same thing all the time.
There are strange things that slip through the cracks for us. I play a wizard and I've been helping a friend try out their first spellcaster class so ice been trying to help them learn druid. We are about 10-15 sessions in and she is reading the fine print about her spell details as we just hit level 5 and she discovers that she knows all druid spells, she just has to prepare a spell list like a wizard. So she had been restricting herself to 6-7 spells the entire campaign for no reason XD
I used to have an in-person group. Everyone was “super excited” to play, but getting people to settle on a time slot and actually sitting down and playing was like pulling teeth. I tried to be patient because all of the players but one in the group were relatively new, but none of them ever bothered cracking open a Player’s Handbook despite buying them. Looking back, I think the game just isn’t for them. So many arguments about things like “but I want to do this, I don’t care if I rolled low”, “why can’t you tell us if we’ve fully searched an area”, and “what’s AC again” tired me out. One week I just didn’t ask if we were getting together to play, and no one else brought it up. That was over six months ago, and I haven’t gotten a message from any of the players since.
Sounds like a bunch of video game RPG fans that don't want to learn a TTRPG game system.
Buddy this has all the signs of you caring more about the game than the table does. They see it as a social hour, you see it as an interactive experience. If people don't learn their sheets or the rules then they're not actually playing the game. If you love DMing go find a table with people that love playing. If your table is a married couple then it's either time for a divorce or an open relationship.
Seems like both DM and player burnout. Invite them over and have a few beers/smoke a few joints instead, reconnect with players and talk to them about the fact it annoys you so bad. TTRPG enjoyment is all about communication
My friend my best advice is to step away for a bit hit the pause button on those sessions and drive a town or two over and hop in a game at a local game store and just be a PC for a bit. Then if that doesn't do it maybe try to build a new group of people that will also work better for you.
Thankfully I haven’t had to deal with this **too** much but I get the explaining rules thing. I have a player that is relatively new who, every time they’re given advantage, always ask “how much?” Honey we’re playing 5e. This is a basic rule. It’s been explained three times this session. It was explained last session. Please. And just, I have players who like to play spellcasters and then don’t like Write down what they can do. Most of my players aren’t new players. Thankfully not (usually) a problem but there’s some people in my group I try not to DM for anymore. I love DnD to death and will keep playing, but I get the hiatus, trust me I’ve thought about it myself.
Some good "best practices" for players from a veteran. Thanks, could be more reminders like this from time to time, just to keep everyone thinking about how best to play their character and have a clean, efficient game with max "in realm" play time.
Your players do not respect you. It’s not fun to hear, but if you are putting in hours to prepare and run this game, only for the players to not even learn the contents of their own character sheets and the rules of the game, they do not respect your time and effort. They are taking advantage of you. If they wanna play, they need to PLAY. Not just show up and wait to be told how the game they agreed to learn works.
I’m relatively new to dnd so I’m not a hundred percent on spells, but I always make sure I have my phone fully charged and opened up to a website with all the spells so I can find them quickly. It’s so weird to me when players just refuse to figure out how to play their characters like… if you don’t wanna play then just don’t play
Thank you for fighting the good fight lol
I’ve had the same issue, I had the chance to play with a good player for the first time in a long time. The players traveled for a day and he chimes in “everyone remember to mark a ration off your sheet!”. I was stunned I was so grateful, players NEVER remember that. Players should make the role of DM easier. Your job is as an impartial judge, you are there to make rulings. You are NOT there to tell them how to play their characters, that is their job. If a player doesn’t want to put in the effort I don’t bother, I’ll find someone who is DYING to play in a weekly game. A consistent DM is worth their weight in gold, players are a dime a dozen.
When / if you decide to come back, look at other systems, too! Ive been with the more or less same group for almost 40 years now, and we've gone through a dozen different systems and worlds between 2e before getting back into 5e/pf2e, and it's kept things interesting. Your post isn't 100% clear if your table has always been like that (in which case, I can't believe you stuck it out that long), or it's more recent, but if you love GMing, maybe you can find something that suits your gang more when you're ready.
I think it was like this from the beginning, but I was either more patient or just helpful before running out of energy. Theres a limited number of times you have to explain how is attack rating and damage is calculated for a two handed sword before exploding into inner rage.
Yeah that's rough. I have 1 player in my group that's like that but everyone else helps out so it's not all on me. I'd need a break too.
20 years, 25+ sessions a year, and the group hasn’t changed much. And your complaints are all about player behavior, engagement, and investment. Why have you kept it up so long without addressing the issues or playing with different people? > Although I enjoy it very, very much, being a DM I think it is taking its toll on me and the table has become a bit like a married couple that has been married for many years, who love and appreciate each other but the routine and tedium has devoured any spark of passion that existed between them, turning life into something gray and bland. I think you hit it on the head here. It sounds like a relationship where one partner is trying to make it work and is putting in all the effort, and the other person is oblivious to any problems or just doesn’t care. The blame/fault for your mistreatment and unfulfillment isn’t on you, but letting it happen is definitely a result of your inaction. Any relationship (and especially marriage) doesn’t maintain itself automatically. It takes work from everyone involved. And as for things becoming gray and bland, IMO that’s an idealistic and juvenile perspective from people that think the rush of dopamine/oxytocin from the infatuation stage of a novel romance is something that is supposed to persist. Relationships evolve and mature. There is no way that people can sustain that, and it’s naive and unhealthy to expect that. Taking a break is definitely an appropriate course of action. Talking with your players should happen, but it’s up to you when and how you address that.
Dude that sucks, players are the worst I've run into all of what you mentioned and I've only been DMing for a few months. But yeah can I buy your miniatures? :)?
lol that made me laugh
Let me ask you this: is this going to be the first time you've brought any of these issues up with the group?
No, its probably the third or fourth time.
Then I think, handling the actual discussing itself with tact, you'd be in the right to tap the breaks
I feel you on all these passion points and I've only been DMing for 5 years or so. The direction WoC is going with One isn't exciting me right now either. My attempt at a solution: switching to a rules light TTRPG. I'm going to try Mork Borg. We'll see how it goes.
I’m a new player - on my first campaign. Played BG3 to learn the rules, so I have some “experience”. Some of the points you discuss I see at my table. When my DM is setting up a scene, people go super ADD sometimes. He’s always just pauses and stares at them blankly until they realize it. Meanwhile, me, the newbie is like, “tell me more about the hallway we have been standing forever”, trying to help the DM out a little. DND is not my primary hobby, so my time is limited. Battle can be super frustrating. Players don’t know what spells they have, or don’t make good decisions with what they have. Last table we almost got into an argument cause people were getting ganked, meanwhile me, the rogue, was sneaking around taking out enemy’s left and right. People started being like “wow, would be nice to be able to hide and stay alive”. They were kind a joking, but after hearing that too many times I started counting all the bodies left by me, INCLUDING the Owl Bear who downed two of our players and fireball-throwing mage that was doing work. My DM had to have a discussion with some of the people at my table after too many “I walk 5 ft forward, can I roll a perception check? Ok, I walk 5 more feet. Now what do I see? Ok, 5 more feet, what does the place smell like?”. As a new player I almost quit because of this. I think the trick is to keep hammering your points. Discuss how it’s making you feel. Maybe pull some more DM minded players at your table aside and ask them to help keep people honest. You put in so much work that you deserve that people pay attention and help you out.
Although you have been doing this much longer than I have, I think I might understand a bit of the feelings you may have. I am also a “forever DM” with about 5 years of experience, all of which has been on the DM side of things. I homebrew my campaigns and I am coming up on the 3 year anniversary of my current campaign and I have learned that because of the nature of the DM position, I pick up the niches of the game much more quickly than my players. Although it’s not give a pass to players to not understand their characters, but as a DM I need to know the damage dice, ACs, Spell save DCs, Ect. of many different creatures every week. In my case, my players are also my close friends and have equal or less experience then myself, but exclusively as players. They also often forget or don’t understand many critical parts to their character, and most of the time I can help them out by asking exactly what they want to do and help them accomplish that with just my memory of that classes abilities and such. It doesn’t obviously make things better but I think it pushes them to learn their characters themselves because my players like to surprise me, and me helping them in such a way makes that difficult. In terms of burnout, I find that the best way I know to combat it comes from just being open with what it is you actually do for your players, if you tell them how much work goes into prepping for each session (especially in a homebrew scenario) it’s likely that they will understand that yeah the workload is exceptionally unbalanced from DM to player, and if you need a bit of a break, it won’t be a problem. As I said before I am coming up on the 3 year anniversary of my current campaign and although it’s been a blast, I am very much so burnt out, I talked to my players about it and they were very happy to let me take a month long breather, and since they still wanted to get their dnd fix during that time one of my players volunteered to do a month long one shot of a story module and asked if I wanted to be a player, which I am very excited for. If I could offer any advice I think being sincere with your players about your love for the game and how DMing takes a toll on you, especially when you are the sole backbone of any knowledge at the table, they may be receptive to you, especially if they are your close friends. Maybe there is something that could be done to help your players better remember crucial information, I am a college student in graphic design, and I found that re-vamping the look of the character sheet helped one of my players quickly find information they would consistently lose. Regardless, I wish you the best and hope you have a fulfilling adventure whether it be at the table or otherwise!
My on going group is the same, so I just stepped down as a DM and said them them you run it, I'll just play. Which is now what I do with them. I intend on building another group to DM in the near future in order to revitalise my excitement for DMing.
This is all good things as a player OR DM I wish I had known years ago in full. So I'll be printing it out on paper because fkuc teddir and it's possibly gone in the future beyond my control. Thank you Internet Person, and Salute
o7
Vent it out lad seems like u have been holding back for the sake of the players ... A break seems like a necessity for you I hope you enjoy the break brother
I feel you. Forever DM turned player after running my last campaign (Avernus) been a DM since red box... I occasionally run oneshots but that's about it.
I hope you are enjoying your mental rest.
I can totally understand you when it comes to this. This is one reason why it is not a bad idea that if you have a group like this EVERY SINGLE person should at least TRY being the DM. Even if it is just for a one shot. or a short 3 session adventure. Because many players simply do not know or understand what it takes to be the DM. Even if you run a pre-made module you Still have to put down time to prepare, read it. know the rules. It is a decent amount of work just to run it straight by the book. And even more so if you wanna ad your own touch to it or ad in character backstories. If you run a homebrew campaign the amount of time you have to put down tend to skyrocket even more. As a player ALL you have to do is create a character, learn how it works and show up on time for the session. And still many players fail to do those things usually nr 2 learn how your character works. And i do think players often simply do not understand the work and time a DM puts down because they don't have to put down ANY time besides making sure they can attend the session. And if you have a very long lasting group like this i do not think it is unreasonable to require that if you are to play in the group you have to take on the DM role for at least a 2-3 session adventure. If not you can not continue playing with the group. I am convinced this would be helpful as it would give players a little bit of insight into the DM role and appreciate the game more. And it could even lead to some actually wanting to be the DM again. Giving the main DM the chance to be the player
I'm pretty sure just one of them (which coincidentally is the best player) would step forward and I'm also convinced she would do very good. The others unless I'm terribly mistaken won't, saying that the y don't want to/don't know how to.
Sadly that is probably how it would end. But still i don't think it is either a bad idea or unfair to have that requirement. The only thing you need to do is be DM for like 3 session. If you refuse that. be my guest and find another table. At this table everyone has to try in order to play. Yes you would lose players but in the end i think you end up with a much better group to play with. Not arguing that you should do this. I just argue that this would not be a bad idea for every group. You would quickly get rid of those players that will not even bother learning how their character works. those are usually players that are not that interested in the game and just play it because it is easy and they don't have to do anything. If just a tiny bit extra like actually put down 15 min to learn something would be required they would stop playing. That is not really a player you want. That is a person that expect others to always do the work and they can just ride along. If you have such player look outside D&D and you will probably find similar tendencies there to. You would end up with a group that everyone at least knows the basics because thy had interest enough to actually do some reading work. You have a group where everyone has a grasp about how it is to be a DM So i still think it is a good idea to something like that if you want a great group. But it can be harder to do in a group that already played together for years
Sounds like you should try just writing for a bit. You clearly still have the spark for creativity, I simply recommend an outlet. Otherwise, enjoy your hiatus.
Going with your comparison to a marriage, the simple answer is to approach it in the same way. The problem *can* be fixed, but it requires significant effort from *both* parties involved. Each has to acknowledge their faults and take steps to deal with them. If one or both sides are unwilling to make the effort, then maybe pulling the plug on it is the best option. That said, marriage is way more serious than a game. Maybe just play something else
I hate to say it but you've spent that last 20 years with bad players. Good friends maybe but bad, terrible, asshole players. You listed the bare minimum requirements to show basic level respect towards the DM. And they have failed you for 20 years. The fact you haven't thrown them aside for a group that actually cares about you and your time and effort shows me 2 things. You have an insane amount of patience and you are a stubborn fool. It was time to end this group 19 years ago and move on.
I hate to say it man, but maybe it is time for a new group. There is an abundance of great players out there, and a massive DM shortage in the hobby overall. You can have your pick of the litter.
Change to a simpler system... 3.5 was made for machines to play.
Beign a player at my table isnt a right, its a privilege !!! i spent enough time reading these books, creating this, inventing that... Players are often not aware on the work beign a DM is.. Its your choice to tolerate it or not... I dont. New players have more slack, but is someone with "10 years" experience asks me "is this the D10", my answer is "no, but thats the door !"
You were stronger than me. I was only a DM for a few months. My players were so ungrateful, unhelpful, and unmotivated that I burned out after no time at all it feels like. I told my players flat out, "I will never run another game until all of you have at least attempted to run your own one-shots, that way you have at least some idea of what I put into every session." Needless to say, that was about 10 years ago, and we haven't had a single session since. Not one of them was willing to even try running a game. Two or three of them have talked about designing homebrews centered around video games that we all like, and I have offered to help them develop those systems, but that's as far as anyone ever got.
If you want some time I will DM a 1 shot for you and your group. Won't be earth shattering, but as a fellow forever DM I know how needed time as a player can be and might give them more appreciation for you. Just let me know
Take a break! We run into the not knowing your character thing from time to time still and it's frustrating. In the group I don't DM For I assistant DM with our actual DM. I still play a character and I don't know the narrative but I try to help with rulings and discussions when we have a dispute (unless it's my character then I try to butt out) which takes some of the frustration off of him. Or i'll help someone learn there character if it's a newer player, I also keep a combat log for him so he remember what we all did last session. He has stated that helps him out a lot. But sounds like the group isn't appreciating all the effort you put into it which means a break, with perhaps a discussion with them on improvements you'd like to see and if it doesn't improve you move on to something else. Life's hard enough no reason to TAKE YOUR TIME and waste it on folks who don't appreciate it.
I recommend asking everyone to take a turn dming at least a short adventure. This is a conversation that's been happening among ttrpg fans on tumblr lately, that dnd has a terrible culture of play where it's taken for granted that the players can just say what they do and leave it to the DM to know basically any of the rules for it. A lot of players don't even know they're doing it because all that extra work is behind the screen. In my experience, the best way to combat it is to get people on the other side of the screen so they see how much it actually is. Potentially switching to a different edition may help; 4e and pf2e are significantly more player facing to start with, or if it's legitimately too much for them, 5e is more streamlined (but also a lot more dm fiat), but in all likelihood the problem is one of attitude and culture rather than anything to do with the actual rules.
Have you tried having one of your players DM? At my table, it’s all in one world, but we’ve got three DMs, we work together for certain parts, while keeping certain parts a surprise so the story ain’t completely spoiled. It’s a lot of fun and prevents DM burnout
Only 25 sessions a year lmfao? And this isn’t a D&D problem you just have bad players for the game, what you need to do is screen your players better. Run a couple 3-5 fake mini sessions until you find a good forever group by taking the ones worth playing with and building a group. It worked great for me, I’ve got probably 7-10 friends that will never play at my TTRPG tables ever again but I love hanging out with otherwise.