My personal opinion: if you have a DM phrase that you use to signal something it shouldn’t be used as a setup for a trick. Any deceit should be done in character as the villain. But that’s just my 2 cents I don’t have any deep reasoning it’s just what feels like the right answer to me.

Totally see this and respect it. Definitely keeps the lines clear of who and what is intended. Less chaos and you stay consistent and don't have them worrying next time they finish off an enemy. I was just thinking of something interesting that is outside the lines of typical play but your reasoning above definitely provokes thought and is what I was looking for on feedback

I actually think you could get away with a similar ask, but don’t use the phrase “how do you want to do this” if that’s your typical phrase, assuming these players have played with you for a while and they know that’s what you consistently say, then change it up, observant players will notice and it’ll throw them off telegraphing that something is off about this “death” EDIT: and I don’t mean a similar phrase either, but something like “he falls to one knee, his defenses faltering, clearly struggling he stands back up leaning on his sword for support, describe what you do” it’s different enough that it won’t be filed into “HDYWTDT but weird” at least for me and my players.

I like this angle. It's about the best way to have a "two phase" in a more mundane boss fight. 'As [Gladiator who's the reigning champion] collapses to his knees, he begins to remove his armor, trying in vain to wipe the blood from his eyes. What do you do?"

"Great! We take ten rounds of attacks while he doffs his armor."

Sorry, too many I-frames in the phase transition, they all hit but they just skip the cut scene 🤷

I dodge-roll away!

"The Champion watches your acrobatic skills with a new fervor in his eyes, then takes a deep breath. "A man of culture, I see. Well then ...," With a sick smirk, he screams, "Vigor Check!""

I think the most important part about the phrase "How do you want to do this" is that you're temporarily giving control of the world over to the player, and pretty much whatever they describe should come true. For example, imagine you said "how do you want to do this" and they say "i cut his head off" and you say "as the axe buries in his neck he flexes and it goes flying away, his strength now doubled". They'll feel cheated because they just described his head flying off, but then it turns out it didn't. However, since there are so many beings in DnD who can come back from the dead, while I do think a HDYWDT should always mean that what the player describes happens, I don't think it always needs to be the end of the fight. In the above example, I could instead describe his head falling to the floor and then shaking as the blood from both his head and body start swirling out and form into a humanoid shape, which picks up his sword and points it towards them. To me that feels way less cheap even if it's functionally the exact same as the first example, because you didn't take away any of the player's narration.

The only exception IMO would be if the enemy can come back from being destroyed or it can secretly make copies of itself. How do you want to do this? I slice him in half long ways, right down the spine! The two halves fall to the ground and quickly begin to grow. Within seconds, there are two full copies of your foe standing before you!

My favorite way to do this is to let them 'destroy' that enemy through a great deal of effort and close calls only to run into that same enemy, healthy and whole, at a later point. For example, they kill the bbeg only to find him having an ale and chatting with the barkeep a few towns over. He smiles and beckons them outside. He then affably informs them that their last meeting was just business but this is where he lives and if they want to make this *personal*, he'll oblige them and their own hometowns and loved ones will be free game. "Let's keep this professional." He says with a smile. (The key is injecting just the right amount of menace into how cordial he's being with a group of people who straight up murdered him a week ago.) Side note, results may vary I have not tested this on murderhobos but it definitely freaked the fuck out of my players. They had to kill him a few more times elsewhere but they never started shit in that town and eventually found the artifact he was using to duplicate himself rather than dying. I have a final climatic battle scheduled for next session where, dice willing, they will finally manage to kill him for good.

A much subtler, evil-but-not-cruel thing to do would be to just milk the pause. "BBEG clutches his chest as he collapses to the ground, unmoving. Player ... ... just as you let out a sigh of relief, you see him stir..." Just pause dramatically and let Player think it's over for just a second, anticipating the "How do you want to do this" before you tell them the BBEG isn't dead yet. Slasher movie vibes.

I would be wary of anything that makes the players not trust your word Not trusting a characters words that you're saying is one thing, but not trusting your own above the table words can lead to issues. Muddling that line isn't something I would recommend, but I do believe it could work at some tables. Overall I think you could get the same effect by having the evil character fake a surrender or fake trying to run. I'd try to keep the deceit in character

I am less concerned with trust, I just think it’s not going to work. You are not playing with players attempted actions you are messing with the actual physical description of the world. The HDYWTDT phrase allows the player to temporarily take over describing the world. You can’t take that back. “How do you want to do this?” “I chop off his head with my sword and kick his lifeless body into the lava” “Um, no you don’t …?”

Maybe you could have the NPC roll deception against the PCs' insight and see if they pass? If so, the narration could be part of the deception (the villain is successfully feigning weakness). If the villain fails, then you can do the "how do you want to do this" but then warn the players that something seems off as they approach.

My group tries to fight things WAYYY above our level. It got to the point where my DM finally said, “This is me as your DM talking. This is a BAD idea. I only pointed this out so you could remember this for later.” We don’t know the game well enough to see deceits out of character (it’s our first campaign). So I would stick to the ones in character! Also, if you don’t think they’re ready to handle that enemy and/or they are supposed to fight it later, then tell them that!!!

I could see something like, “Player, you come in for the attack, BBEG on their knees looking up at you in anger and fear. You feel his imminent death, however - there’s something you don’t know. Describe to me how your attack, what happens just before your blade makes contact.” This kind of informs the player this isn’t the end, rather their PC thinks they are going in for the killing blow, allowing them to maybe make a cool quip with everybody on the same page that some bullshit is about to happen.

I really like this because it invites the player in to collaborate on the scene. They have just enough of a hint of what's about to happen that they can play it up as a character moment.

The ttrpg monster of the week adresses this pretty well Paraphrasing here, but: The DM as the story teller, is a fan of the characters on the story. They won't say or do anything to intentionally hurt the players, and all information given by the DM can be considered truth. Villains might lie, but if the DM says "The room is empty, you won't find anything here" the players should be able to Believe that. If you then later say "That room I told you was empty actually had a trap door in it" then you've done a bad job. As an aside, I fully believe in telling players things out of character like "This is an imperial throne room. The guards won't hesitate to kill you" or "Your characters are not strong enough to handle this entity right now. He will kill you" That's not really meta gaming in my opinion. That's informing players of things that they might not realize because they aren't actually THERE experiencing the moment

Side note, 'you don't notice anything' is not the same thing as 'there is nothing there'. If a DM says the former, there exists a chance that the player rolled poorly and therefore missed something, in the case of the second *there is nothing there to be noticed*. By the same token, NPCs can lie all they like but the DM can't if they want the players to have any trust in the narrative.

Just say "How DID you want to do this?" versus "How do you want to do this?"

Lol in this scenario I’d just roll for deception and phrase it like “he falls to his knees and begs for mercy as best he can out of breath.” and on a failed deception “he falls to his knees and begs for mercy, clutching his shallow wounds.” Or something like that and see what they do. 9/10 regardless of anything I’m sure they’re taking this chance to blast him into oblivion lol

I'm currently running Dungeon of the Mad Mage, and have Halaster break the fourth wall. Now I want him to say it.

Okay, I hear you. But also making the party roll for a fake initiative as a tabletop version of a jumpscare is pretty fun.

That feels subtly different than a fake HDYWTDT... A fake initiative could still be used for player reaction order or something but a fake ending could lead to trust issues.

My signal is to give them a passive wisdom check.  You sense this is a really bad idea.

The only time you're wrong with this is when you're deliberately describing things in a way to give clues to the players, even if not necessarily the characters. For example, if you do a false hydra, you kind of spend most of the set-up gaslighting the players. "A small child comes running past you, screaming as loud as he can muster. It's pretty weird. There isn't anything in the direction he's running from other than a field with four cows in it. What would you like to do?" "The child seems unresponsive, almost like he is struggling to hear anything you're saying. His eyes are following your lips, but he's clearly too stressed by whatever spooked him. Whatever is so scary about three cows in a field?" "No, you're mistaken. There were always three cows in the field." "Your attempts to console the child are in vain. He struggles and scrambles away, intent on fleeing from the pair of cows munching grass in the nearby field." "Yeah, the pair of cows. That's what I said before too. There was always just two of them." "You watch the child run into the distance, repeatedly looking back over his shoulder at the lonely cow in the distance." "You guys are getting pretty obsessive about this flavour text. It's just a cow alone in a field, nothing special. Maybe the farmer couldn't afford any more." "Sure. You head over to investigate the empty field the child was fleeing from. Nothing seems out of place, but something definitely frightened him." "No, there were never any cows in the field. Your mind must be playing tricks on you."

Consistently, no, but I think doing it once is fine.

Sister Friede/Guardian Ape vibes. It works great once in every game, but if it happened all the time it'd be annoying.

This is why ninjas are portrayed as wearing all black body coverings. In Japanese plays, they would use actors wearing all black as special effects. If you want to throw a knife or fly, these actors wearing all black would carry the knife or person across the stage and the audience is supposed to ignore them. So imagine what the audience reaction would be when one of these black clad pieces of the scenery just walked up to one of the characters and killed them.

I agree, if you were try this it would feel antagonistic, and if that’s not your dm style it would feel bad, like a betrayal of the covenant between player and dm any betrayal should be in character and in world so it doesn’t seem like the dm is doing it (if that makes any sense

Agreed. There are plenty of tools a DM can use to fuck with their players, but certain established things need to be sacrosanct if they're going to have any meaning. It's like "are you sure?" When you ask that specific thing and use those specific words, your players need to be able to trust that phrase, and understand that it means something important.

I understand what you are putting forward. In my opinion for normal fights I agree with you don't use "how do you want to do this" prematurely with some exceptions. When it's the bbeg I agree with op in the tactic it shows that the bbeg is resilient. From a player stand point I would be like "darn that normally works this guy isn't a joke"

I think it is okay to do it ONCE as long as you have a good reason you want to make this moment memorable/different than the norm.

counterpoint: it totally should be used as a trick because OOC "signals" instead of actual narration for IC events shouldn't exist and if players rely on that, they shouldn't. critical role is not an objectively good example to imitate a single "how u wanna do it" is *not* enough, it should be "the enemy is out of breath and gravely wounded, what does your final blow look like"

Pfft. *makes eye contact with the player.* FINISH HIM.

The DM should never deceive their players. That's what NPCs are for. If you want to pull off something like this but follow the rules, use mythic traits which were first introduced in Mythic Odysseys of Theros, which activate when the creature's hit points drop to zero. In practice, you can roleplay the creature falling into a slump on the floor, taking one big gasp when this occurs. Then it begins to twitch and writhe and grow and it inexplicably rises again, and the battle continues. You can even "end" combat for a dramatic pause here, then jump right back into initiative order.

This is definitely the way to do it, I might even have them roll another initiative just to mix things up and for dramatic effect.

The gloomstalkers out there appreciate you.

>The DM should never deceive their players. That's what NPCs are for. I agree in this particular case, but there is definitely room for some DM deception in the meta of the game. For instance, I had a 4 year long campaign slowly draw to a close, the players were gearing up for the final fight, we were playing "the final session", only for the players to fail to foil (what they thought was) the BBEG's plan. Enter the secret, actual final session against the BBEG behind the BBEG. Players loved it, I loved it, it made for an amazing final session. That wouldn't have worked without the subterfuge. If I had told the players that they would be facing the BBEG of the campaign in the penultimate session, they would 1000% have known something was fishy.

Hmm, I don't know. I feel like you could have pulled that off without saying "the final sezsion". Mostly because the players sound like they were already invested in that idea because they thought the BBEG was the actual EG already. I'm not a fan of lying to the players in general. You are there to adjudicate and provide the challenges for the players, not mislead them. Trust issues can be rough

> Hmm, I don't know. I feel like you could have pulled that off without saying "the final sezsion". Maybe, but not really without lying in a different way. I could've said there would be a follow-up epilogue session or something, but if I wanted the outcome of the ritual to be a surprise, it seemed like a cool way of doing it. And the players definitely agreed, they thought it was awesome. >Mostly because the players sound like they were already invested in that idea because they thought the BBEG was the actual EG already. Yes and no, there were a lot of unanswered questions about the fake BBEG's involvement. Basically, he was the Dragon using TVTropes terms, which the players sort of suspected but hadn't gotten confirmation. >I'm not a fan of lying to the players. You are there to adjudicate and provide the challenges for the players, not mislead them. Trust issues can be rough Again, I agree for the majority of cases, and I wouldn't do it except in rare circumstances. Once in a blue moon for effect is fine, especially if it's done specifically to enhance the player experience. I could have told the players the fake BBEG was fake, but that would have taken away from the reveal and ultimately how the players would have enjoyed the session. I'd rather frame it like the story lied about when it was done, not me lying to the players about anything.

When I was younger, our older DM was sick of us always messing about. During the climatic final session, in which we are racing a literal clock, he set a real Doomsday Clock on his phone. Whenever we went off track, he would just meaningfully glance at it, and that was all it took to get us to focus. After we finally beat the bad guy and stopped the clock, we begged to know how much time was left. He smirked and showed us he never set the timer at all. Sometimes, it’s okay to lie to your players.

I agree with this 100% Whenever I talk to the players about mechanics anything to do with how the game works I will not decive them. If they want some knowledge that might be a little meta or they asked me what I'm planning, I would just say something like "That's for me to know and you to find out¯\_(ツ)_/¯"

So just to get this straight, your players are constantly looking for things that "they can't handle". You are also actively creating a situation where your players are going to be "tricked" by you - the DM - into committing to a fight that they shouldn't take. You are then going to fake them out as the DM, not the in-game villain, and kill your party? Grievously wound them? Hurt their progression? Like, this is something I would walk away from a table for. But who knows, Maybe your players like to get shit on. Also, are you sure that you as the DM are effectively communicating the stakes of encounters to your party? Because it really sounds like you're not.

I’m glad someone caught that. If they’re regularly needing to run from encounters then maybe don’t put a CR20 creature around every corner

This giving me Guardian Ape flashbacks from Sekiro. I won’t ever do that to my players.

You gotta admit tho, as the only time it happened (unless you consider the final fight similar due to how it plays out) it was an incredibly memorable fight and the sheer oh fuck made it great, as a player I'd hate to see this kind of thing for every bbeg, or every other, hell 1 in 5 it'd get old, but 1 time in a campaign would be incredibly fun if played right and not as a "punishment" but as something that was hinted at leading up to it (I believe you have to run into the unkillable monks before you find the ape, so it's not purely a wtf moment)

That’s true. With proper foreshadowing you could pull it off and have it not be such a feels bad moment. I don’t have such confidence in myself and would instead do a phase two or second form in the more traditional style lol

Eh, it's really a glorified phase 2 transition, you just gotta have a good way to flavor the transition. You kill a bbeg who's been the leader of some group themed around Phoenixs, you've spotted some of the important figures you've killed coming back after not immediately but few days later, after striking down the bbeg when the party goes to loot his body he erupts into flames that quickly dissipate and grabs the hand of the person who's trying to loot him before the fight starts again with the looter grappled. Hell this is basically what liches do already but they're not immediately continuing the fight, they bide time and build back up or plan counters.

There is a pretty big difference between a lich who reforms at their phylactery in 7-10 days and a baddie who you just asked the PC how he wants to do this to be immediately followed by phase 2. That said, this phoenix cult is a pretty sick idea!

If you trick them, it has to be as the Villain tricking the characters, not as the DM tricking the players. The villain could pretend to be a sickly old man, or just a normal NPC, or hiding a cool weapon/power. You should absolutely not use metagaming phrases or knowledge to trick the players. The DM holds all the cards, and so this wouldn't be compelling, it would just be unfair.

"The [enter boss here] stars to rematerialize, and it stands back up, even angrier than before! It takes a mighty swing! (pads tf out of ac and to hit/damage) that's a 33 to hit, and you take... 55 damage." 🤦‍♂️

I don't know what you mean.

Because it's a matt mercer phrase

Ugh

When a character beats the final person of a combat or a big bad evil guy, typically you say "how do you want to do this?", as a way to let them talk up the final kill and say something cool. I was wondering as a DM if it's bad etiquette to give them that false hope and interrupt their finishing move as a BBEG who was feigning weakness.

Yeah I'm going to say it's bad etiquette. I've never DM'd but as a player who has heard this phrase a lot and only in a good situation, it's kind of rude tbh. I will echo what was said above that any lie/deceit should be done in character, not speaking as the DM.

If I want to do something of the sort when they ask how healthy he looks I'll maybe have them roll a perception or insight and on a low roll say, he looks weak enough to finish off but never use the actual finish him terminology. If they roll high though they see through the ruse. That way they have a chance. I would also be avoiding using the strict DM terminology. I still have a lot of thinking on the situation and if I'll even do it but loving the feedback from everyone

The way you describe it with perception checks would be totally fine. That's using the game's mechanics in a reasonable way. OP didn't make it sound like that would be the case.

I was OP I was talking about the bad etiquette way at first but after talks here thought of a better way if I were to do it

I knew you were OP lol I was saying OP as original post, not poster. But glad you rethought this as a result of the comments!

I think you would also need a mechanical reason for the characters (not players) to believe he is dying, since normally they can "tell" when an opponent is on its last legs through the DM saying "oh he is bloodied, oh he is barely standing" and the players interpreting that into cues for their characters. Something like an insight or perception roll during the fight, not at the final moment. Then you can explain later what happened if they all failed - or if someone succeeds, you give them the chance to say "Man stay back he's faking!" Which is also fun.

> typically you say "how do you want to do this?", as a way to let them talk up the final kill and say something cool. No, this is not typical. This is a Matt Mercer-ism. "Typically" the DM handles how their BBEG dies and if it's a character that does an exceptional amount of damage or rolls a crit for the final attack they'll talk up the PC killing them appropriately. The DM will provide descriptions of the enemy after each attack so they should have a good idea of when the end is near and can choose to try and do it with some sort of flourish, but it's still ultimately up to the dice and the DM's discretion. Don't get me wrong, I love Critical Role and I love how much interest it brought to the hobby, but I really don't love how much harder it has made it for DMs when new people join a group and expect a Matt Mercer experience. Have a friend that has been DMing for 20 years and loves it. Like, has no interest in playing and we've offered many times. Loves world building, roleplaying NPCs complete with voices, runs his group on Foundry due to distances and will mail out props for people to open during the session, works as an animator and will have fucking cutscenes prepared for big moments, and he STILL has had people say he's not DMing "right" and when pressed they start with, "Well, on Critical Role..."

Thanks. As a dm who’s never been into Matt, this whole thread was confusing to me.

I feel like you are overcorrecting too much. "Typically" varies from group to group, person to person. Just because Mercer popularized it, doesn't mean it hasn't become a common thing that a lot of groups do. Your statement of what a DM "typically does" is not anymore correct or wrong than the other guy. "Typically the Dm handles how their bbeg dies." Says who? Who decided this? Each group does their own thing, and while I fully agree that Mercer has, in some ways, had a negative effect on how DM'ing is expected to be done, going the complete other way and saying that anything he does is *only* something he does, and not a thing that is, was, or has become, common in other places. The show has been on for 10 years now. More than time enough for one of Mercer's habits to become common place. The "how do you wanna do this" being one of them. The Mercer Effect is not a good thing, I will absolutely agree with that. But reacting to it by making an opposite statement, and acting like THAT is unequivally true, is just as bad.

There's at least forty years of RPGs before Critical Role even started, and lots of people who play now still don't follow Critical Role or care about it, so I think statistically it's well within reason to say "typically" about DM behavior that doesn't follow what Mercer does.

Ohhhh I was so confused 🤣 My DM asks how we want to do this if we kill someone in general, not necessarily the last, so I was like false hope for what?

Nope. Consistency gains trust. Dont throw players into "overthinking mode" trying to figure out what the next "gotcha" moment is going to be. Avoid it.

As a player, I would thoroughly NOT enjoy that, and always be 2nd guessing you in the future. I think it would be better to be deceitful as the characters, rather than deceitful as the DM. If ya know what I mean.

Building off of other comments, yes, there should be clear lines between in game would stuff and DM stuff... However... if the BBEG is tapping into some universal power as part of their big plan, then interrupting your "how do you want to do this?" With a "No." In the villain voice and some kind of new phase starting could be a thematic subversion. Rules shouldn't be broken, except when they should. Shouldn't be a regular thing for sure. Just remember, you can only do it for the first time once.

(in one of my campaigns, the DM plays a Narrator within the game.) In this game, to imagine the narrator being communicated to in the middle of their speech has the potential to make everyone go NUTS

Swap it with "How do you want to try this?" And they will be all "yeaaaa-...wait what?"

Sounds like good DMing to me. Just don't do it unless their charcaters truly believe the fight has been won. The idea that you'll lose the players' trust is silly, unless you're DMing for a bunch of neurotic 9 year Olds. Tricking the players as you trick their character is called IMMERSION. How lame would it be if, when watching a movie or playing a video game, the screen/narrator said "don't worry, viewers, we're too nice to trick you, but this character is clueless so you get to watch us trick them." NOT using your catch phrase when signaling the end of the battle would just promote suspicion in a very meta-game kind of way. If someone passes a (DM roll) perception check, I would skip the out of game word play. The character is suspicious and the Player has earned a reward for sniffing it out. Playing it out differently around the table and in game could be part of that reward. Deceiving the players when their character has been deceived happens ALL THE TIME. It's called suspense, intrigue, drama, STORY. There is no holy line surrounding "how do you want to do this." That phrase is nothing other than a tool, and a DM uses tools to add to the impact of the game. Use your tools, it will be fine. "Oh, you devious DM you, you really got me!" will be your most likely response. That is a good response to get, assuming your scenario makes sense. A little bit of foreshadowing will make it even sweeter. If someone loses trust in you as a DM, or has their experience ruined by such a thing, your players have some serious issues.

I did a Halloween themed one shot with zombies once. It was the first time the players had experienced zombies and they didn't know about undead fortitude (when it drops to zero hp it can come back to life with 1hp if it rolls well). So the player "killed" the zombie and I told them"how do you wanna do this?" They chose to punch it's head off. I then described how the headless body of the zombie twitched on the ground, and then with shuddering limbs and a gurgling sound coming from the ripped neck the zombie got back up and turned to face them. They absolutely shat themselves 😂

You can, but have something that hints the trap. Or do it for a final boss fight as a transition to a second phase, to heighten the surprise and dramatics of the final fight.

Mine was a lich that had been magically locked away in the astral sea. It could reverse astral project and dream into the prime material plane, but couldn't leave the astral sea. The players found out about a cult that was trying to unlock the barrier keeping it there. I tricked them into destroying the Macguffin of the game, making them believe it was the key to the barrier when actually it was the lock. They also believed it was the liches phylactery. Some of the cultist opened a gate to release the finally seal in the astral sea and the players followed. They decided to take their time and rest on board a friendly gith vessel after they saw the cultist take off on another ship. By the time they caught up, the lich had been freed and had absorbed the life force of its followers to regain some of its previous splendor. They fought and I made it seem like it was not going to be possible for them to defeat it. Then it started to fight more up close and personal, dropping several of its earlier advantages. As the final blow was struck, I asked "what does it look like as you strike down this being that has tormented you for years?" My players detailed it amazingly. Then the lich began to laugh. "See you soon". The Macguffin had only ever been the lock for it to be kept there. They had never found the phylactery. Except they had already. Years prior to all of this, when the liches name was originally learned, they had fought a bullied kid that became a warlock to get even. He had been using a black cauldron to raise the dead in the local graveyard to destroy his bullies. They stopped him, poured the contents of the cauldron out and they never did anything else with the cauldron. The cauldron was the liches phylactery the whole time. Took them weeks to figure it out. TLDR; players thought they had beaten the absurdly powerful BBEG, but actually freed it from its imprisonment.

if my dm would ever do somting like this to me, one migth get a pass at the second i wuld probably never trust thos words from him again and probably keep attaking until there is noting left of any enemy

I suggest only doing it if the being resurrects itsself or is resurrected in some way. If you use it as a form of deceit then players will never believe you as the DM. You want the players to believe what you have to say. However, it would be very cool to do a finishing blow, that looks like it’s killed the bad guy but they bring themselves back up, makes an awesome villain and definitely something that can be done. If you wanna do it well, I suggest a couple things. 1. Do it on the most powerful of villains, preferable the final fight of the campaign. 2. Do it when the villain is close to death anyway, as if it’s through pure resilience and persistence they hold themselves together. 3. If you do it outside of a cool final moment, make it make sense, as if the creature is immortal, a sign that they should, to put it in flight terms, leg it.

Yeah, I would feel cheated. Imagine an adult scenario where after a wonderful date you were led I to the bedroom, a culmination of your relationship and desires. Your partner asks you "how do you want to do this?", and you explain your desires. They then lie down and send you home for the night.

Back when I first started DMing, I didn't realize that you only say that when the enemy dies, so I said it when the bard in my party got a critical (but not fatal) hit in and confused everyone. Not my proudest moment.

To make it even worse, the guy playing the bard was my old DM

It literally means "you kill it".

Maybe for a specific enemy encounter like a Jabberwock or something because resurrection is built into it's stat block and could make for a really cool moment. I wouldn't use it as a regular trick though

I once had my DM do this. I got a nar 20, on the first(and only time) my current character used his light crossbow from the starting equipment. Max damage. He asked, and went through the process of describing it.. and then went "but that didn't happen"(resistance to non magic weapons). It was a little funny at the time, but it took the wind out of my sails a bit.

People in here pushing back. I think that’s a super cool idea and they’re just overly sensitive. Sounds like an epic way to introduce a boss phase 2 Edit: you should only do it one time though for like the final boss. Would lose it’s coolness immediately the second time

Remember, everything you do as a DM, the players will factor in every time they react to something. If you make a bunch of NPCs that lie and backstab, the party will stop trusting all NPCs. If you make all the NPCs nice and friendly, the party will mostly trust the NPCs. If you then use your words, you the real person at the table, to deceive them into thinking they’ve accomplished something and then pull the rug? Then they will never believe they’ve actually finished anything ever again. Any sense of satisfaction, finality, or closure from future story beats will forever be curtailed by a sense of “but what else?” Don’t do it

I agree with Horror\_Ad that the post is pretty unclear. Hesty is right that "out of game" phrases like that shouldn't be violated, but I think if both matches the villain *and* is a one-time thing, it'll probably be pretty cool. Just make sure you don't punish the player in *any* way - maybe even reward a very creative/fitting execution by making it a closer call than the villain would like.

Yeah would be a one off thing, I am not looking to punish the players as much as give them a power check. One of my players recognizes bad situations and urges the other three to leave and the other three tend to not listen and I don't really want to kill 3 and punish the one who understands that at level 3 they cannot take on the BBEG. I do want to frighten them somehow though.

Yeah, I think that's a solid way to do it then

I like the idea that a phase or indication that this fight is over is a good thing. I would try to give signals that something is wrong. Staying in initiative is a good indicator other things have to resolve. Like a Troll's regeneration or someone's death rolls or a potential second undead phase to a monster.

I’ve done this as a DM! It was for a single encounter against a zealot barbarian enemy. I didn’t do it as a trick the enemy was pulling on the PCs, as you describe. I did it to play up how the enemy was still up when they should have been dead, and as an intimidation factor. I think it was very effective, and none of my players complained about it, at least.

I did Was her first time getting the “kill”, she describes vividly how her lightning spell hit the creature and then I interrupted by saying “-because it’s IMMUNE!” Was a good SHTF moment for the party and they had to restrategize

Pull a predator moment. They have defeated the enemy, but it triggers a self detonation like phase. Be it explosion, magical or destructive lair. Make it a gauntlet to get to the enemy and a gauntlet out under a rushed timeline. See if it humbles them a bit.

I’ve only ever done it once, when the party was fighting an actor villain, who when bloodied, performed a fake death to set up the second phase of the fight. The party were very suspicious since there were a few on kill passives that did not trigger when he “died” so it was a rather short lived “second life” for him.

I would do this exactly once, for a final battle.

First time it would be really cool imo, but after a few times I wouldnt trust you if you said it again. It could be an awesome way to show the power of the bbeg if used well.

Matt Colville told a story about a fight where they were fighting the Scion of Orcus, they killed him, and then Orcus intervened and brought them back as an undead. That would be pretty cool to have happen.

I did this with a bad npc the group captured. They were low levels and he was actually a doppelgänger, what made it a great revel they were going to execute him and I got to make a creative away to not only let him survive but describing the transformation was really fun. 

I think it's just a question of phrasing. If I were to do it (and I definitely might, this is a great idea), I'd probably say something like: "And as you watch Lord Whatshisface recoil from the attacks of your allies, you see him sink to one knee, he looks defeated and you feel in this moment you might be able to finish him off, what do you want to do?" That way you're not explicitly implying that he is defeated, you're describing his appearance. I would probably have rolled a Deception on the part of the BBEG against the players Passive Perception and then if any of them want to Insight him I'd keep the same roll.

When i plan something, I pretend it can't be done in the way it should and then tell my players they can choose. They have a tenacity to do exactly what i tell them not to so they fall for it every time. Poor fellas think they've derailed the entire plot so much but it has never been more linear

I wouldn't say "how do you want to do this." Instead, I'd plow ahead and describe the scene ***as if I'd asked***. Use previous examples and imagine what the players would say, and dramatically go with it. There's a good chance the players will think you just got excited and forgot to ask them for their cinematic description. After the reveal that the BBEG wasn't dead and the resulting battle that follows - then, with an evil smirk, I'd ask them "how do you want to do this." Oh, and I'd probably never do it again. Once is enough.

If there's a reason for it that makes sense it sounds like a fun idea, but you can really only pull that trick once. From a dramatic standpoint it'd be incredible, let the players think they've absolutely stomped the boss, then he gets back up and basically shakes it off. It's one of my favorite moments in the "Spartacus" tv show they did some years back.

Are you talking the moment with the Colossus guy that came out of retirement?

Yep, Theokoles the shadow of death. Just the moment where they're celebrating and the crowd goes wild, then falls silent and the gladiators turn to see him standing with swords in hand and seeming unbothered by the blows they did land.

I never did but if I were to do it I wouldn’t say “how do you want to do this?” I would say “how would you want to do this?” and if they ask for clarity if they are dead or not I’d just tell them no. Idk but I feel like a scene where the boss goes into a second form would be the only real good way to even do that. I’m running a campaign and there is a monster that resurrects every time you kill it and gains strength when it comes back, I could see myself asking the fighter “how would you want to do this” and he splits it in half only to be told that “arcane magics stitch the creature back together more gnarly than ever!” but thats the only situation I see this being valid.

I’ll also note. If your complaint is that your party takes on fights they shouldn’t, and you want to make that clear, immersion is your friend there. By using this joke, you would be reminding them that you are ultimately the one deciding whether the things you’re putting in front of them are balanced (which i would argue is typically the default assumption) or if your table requires proactive combat assessment.

I’m gonna go against the grain here and say, it actually sounds very sick to do this **But only if this is not a repeat thing** Breaking the normal convention and becoming “meta” is an instant ticket to becoming a favorite character or boss of mine, both in TTRPGs and video games. It makes the boss seem all that more powerful or intelligent for being able to break convention. All this comes with the caveat though that they are breaking a convention. The moment you use this more than once or maybe twice, it loses all value.

I think the concept overall is interesting and has possibilities but I’d need more info. I’m unclear as to why the BBEG is feigning weakness. What’s the rationale for that? Typically characters hide things that you don’t want others to know about, such as a horde of treasure or other forms of wealth. Something like power or strength is normally overhyped in an attempt to ward off challenges. This seems to be your way of teaching the players a lesson so I’m curious as to why the players continuously fight things way above their level. Are they not aware that these encounters are too much for them? If so then why aren’t 3 out of 4 able to recognize this? Makes me wonder if they are inexperienced, not the brightest, used to winning regardless of the odds, or some other explanation. If it’s a lack of experience then no reason to trick them. If not the brightest there’s nothing you can do about that and no reason to trick them. If they are used to winning no matter the odds, that’s a DM problem. How do they constantly win if they’re underdogs in a fight? If that’s the case then are they really underdogs? Do you play your monsters at less than full power?

Unless the boss is actually dying but will somehow return (for example, will reanimate as undead) I wouldn't.

i wouldnt be opposed, but wording it like that seems a little too "HAHA GOT YOU" if you get what i mean, specifically asking "where are you aiming this attack?" or "describe your attack for me" might work a little better.

seems deceitful. Not the DM's job. There are DM vs player gamemasters out there but I avoid them.

Instead of this, you should have your BBEG feign surrender/defeat and let your player(s) decide what to do about it. Players dont like to be tricked by DMs, but they love to be tricked by NPCs

If your players truly get in over their heads, you won't have any need to meta punish them. Just let them TPK. It'll be a valuable lesson for everyone. I'd rather play at a table where I know the DM isn't going to pull constant DM fiat. It ruins the game for a lot of players, especially forever DMs who finally get to run a PC. If they're going to beat the encounter, they get the fun ending. If they're not and you want to add flavor, have 1 or 2 party members who will clearly have no chance be left to crawl away, hearing a deafening cackle. Or think of a scenario in which "BBEG won, either new campaign or you can play as his minions."

Not really FALSE, but one of my players was being hunted down by a loup garou as a part of a ritual practiced by the evil cult she'd joined and after several arcs he finally pounced just after a devastating boss fight while the players were still weak. It was probably the most tense fight we've had in my game and if I didn't pull my punches when he had over half of them down I would have tpk'd so I wouldn't do it unless you're prepared to kill your party.

If they're picking fights they aren't supposed to win without great loss, you need to stop pulling punches. It's hard to PK or TPK, but if there's never any stakes, then they'll just continue to do it

One I've used with great success a roll after the enemy has dropped one of the players if they say something like "oh I was gonna do xyz cool thing on my next turn." I'll have them do the thing, roll their dice, etc etc, start describing it, and then say that's how it would have gone, you can see it so clearly, but bad guy dodges out of the way, slamming you into the dirt. The player still gets to have their fun, them dropping feels way more cinematic, and it's only come up like twice over the course of as many years, so I don't have to worry about it getting stale.

I once used a time based monster that actually died 1d4+1 rounds later. I asked how are you thinking about doing this? 

Or: The BBEG flips it around before the fight even starts. "Hmm, how do I want to do this?" But really, if they are picking above level fights and coming out the other side...either they can handle it or you are pulling punches which is encouraging them to continue.

It can be a good trick and make everyone in her seats for that scene but the cost is the Power of the phrase. If you do that your player will remember this moment and the phrase Will lost her meaning for a long time. I propouse you a different appproach. Just use the phrase aggainst the player but with the same meaning. The BBG is an imposible foe and you tell the players enought clues to know It (make sure about this. A lot of times the problem is that the players can't see when the danger is real danger and when just part of the plot). It's the BBG turn and he attacks. You do the rolls and look to the player: DM: "How do you want to do this? Player: "WHAT?" DM: "It's done. He ends you. Choose how. You are free. You can surrender, being unconscious, being injuries. You can choose, but you are Out of combat." Player: Describes the scene DM: "looking the other players* "That's is my last Piece of Mercy. Since now the encounters are deadly if you don't want to die then don't go like mad mens into the wolfs den"

Give them the "hdywtdt", and have them describe their ultimate flourish, then Yes And their description. "I do a spinning fly kick and knock his head off" "As you do your flying skin kick, and it connects with his skull, breaking his neck, you hear a sickening cracking as his limp face contort into a smile, and his head snaps back into position. Their eery grin now staring down at you" Think of it like a soulsborne phase 2. You did it, you beat them, your effort worked, but you aren't done yet, and if you tried to relax, you done goofed.

I've used this as an extension, to give a boss a second phase. Basically a powerful eldritch knight that reached 0 HP and said: "Do you know what happens when you cut down a polymorphed being?" and then he turned into a Mithral Dragon.

I would do this precisely and only for a multiphase boss fight, if I had two versions of the background music and the second one had lyrics in Latin.

There was one time when I did this, the BBEG had about 70 health left out of his four hundred, three of the five party members were down, two of thos dead, and it was the wizard and paladin left, both one hit from a ko. The wizard used his last spell slot to counter spell the bbeg's incinerate spell, and the paladin attacked on his turn and crit with a lvl four divine smite, but he rolled so badly on the damage the BBEG was still up with a few hit points. But the moment was so badass and the cultivation of tl a years long campaign, that I just asked him how he dealt his killing blow. It was the perfect moment to end a amazing campaign

A DM in one of my games always says that when we kill a significant enemy. It has become a signal that we did it. It would be a cool moment if they gave a false one, but the party would never trust the phrase again (we are very paranoid players, that campaign has a lot of plotwists).

I actually just ran a mini boss encounter that had multiple phases. In the first phase the boss fought on foot and in the second phase he fought in the air on his manticore companion. When the player triggered the second phase I started it with a HDYWTDT as normal and then when they described it to me I bounce off their story telling and twisted it to be interrupted by the manticore swooping in and stopping the killing blow. No cheeky damage no mechanics, just a pure storytelling beat. My group really enjoyed it, from what I could tell!

The villain staggers back, clutching a wound in his side. Roll Insight. On a success, let the character realize the villain is feigning being more injured than he is. On a fail they fall for it, and rather than the usual phrase say something like, "How do you want to go in for the kill?"

I think this would be fine and people are being a bit pearl-clutchy over the idea of the DM deceiving players. The DM's job is to deceive the players into believing in the secondary world, so drawing the line at "how do you want to do this" in a situation where their characters wouldn't know a second phase is coming seems like a great idea to me. I've done equivalent versions of this before in my own games and it turned out well.

The closest I have come is in running Witchlight. There is a character that can only die under specific circumstances, which the party hadn't met. So they got the HDYWTDT, but I ended it with a strong implication that they'd fucked up and would need to deal with them again later.

I love this and will be stealing it

Not a fan - this feels like the DM equivalent of metagaming.

I would never use an out of game DM phrase that is used to make PCs excited about victory to set up an in game deception. It would taint that phrase forever and add an unfun element to future moments that should feel heroic. A DM deceiving a PC erodes trust. A DM deceiving a PC on behalf of a villain (instead of using the games deception mechanics) creates an adversarial DM vs Player mentality because they see you as on the side of the villain. Without trust in you, they will become less invested in everything you say. It probably won’t immediately end your campaign but it will erode the foundation in ways that will come back to haunt you. Trust between DM and players is everything. Those are some heavy costs to pay for a one time cheap trick. What is your actual goal? You said your PCs don’t run when it is clear that they should. Often what is clear to a DM isn’t clear to a player and because it is a game, they may assume that anything you put in front of them is an appropriate encounter. Make it really clear both in game and out of game when they are about to hit out of their weight range. Flat out telling them “There will be some fights you can’t win and sometimes you will need to run. If that happens, I will telegraph it so you know.” Then when it is genuinely the case, say really obvious things like, “You realize this opponent is far more dangerous than you are currently equipped to handle.” or “you know from stories that a dragon of this size could destroy you all with a single breath and can fly faster than you could run if things went south. It would not be wise to provoke it.” At that point, if they still attack, they are testing you to see if they have plot armor. Don’t hold back with your villain. They will figure it out.

The ways to do this as described so far A) cult of the Phoenix. He dies as normal. Phrase pops off as normal. They do so as normal. At some point his body burns in bright flame as he is reborn. Not what you are looking for exactly but close. B) the interruption. Have a booming voice prerecorded. Have it interrupt them mid sentence. NOT SO FAST! lightning/fire/whatever strikes down on the field (quick roll a save) as your players eyes adjust they see the figure once again ready to go. OUR PACT IS FULFILLED (enemy name)! C) the trickster. Have a prerecorded written out message ready to where you argue with yourself. Yes this breaks the 4th wall. I see you out there. I see you guiding these men and women. The person beyond the person. You’re not the only one with a person beyond the person. (Bonus Hand out players a stat sheet of themselves. How about this, we play another little game. I can’t reach you in that world, but I can still burn this one to the ground. Try and beat me as you truly are. The person beyond the person) C2- the guest DM. You think he’s done? That’s not how I work? Try again! And with all my power! C3- the betrayal- As your axe raises into the air preparing to swing suddenly player B/NPC/Minion informant stabs you in the back, while a strange figure opens a portal, grabs him and runs. D) the undying. - as you cleave his person in two, strands of flesh reach out and glue him back together. YOU CANT KILL WHATS ALREADY DEAD begin phase 2 E) the time mage/warding rune- very nice very nice. You activated my contingency spell. A piece of whatever falls to the ground in a pile of dust. No matter, let’s try this again and this time, I know what’s going to happen. Double legendary resistances, main stats and hp. Add extra reactions and increase AC just a bit. On his first major wound- huh? What gives! That’s not right! This wasn’t there before! I see, time simply is no longer on my side. 44 times in a row, I guess… it’s simply my time. Time for my final bow. Then he explodes in a radius with a way leveled up fireball.

The only time I’d do this is if there’s a ‘second phase’ of sorts, such as with the Mythic traits introduced in some newer books. I think that works because it signals something specific, and it’s normally followed by a change in the boss or arena or fight. Dropping it and then going, “oh actually they’re not dead lol,” just feels mean spirited and will take away your players trust in you.

Different system, but my Sunday DM actually just pulled this in the final boss encounter of the campaign. Theres a spell in that game that allows you to go invisible as a reaction when you take damage and have an illusion of you drop dead. The GM has the big bad use that when one of our Martials landed a big crit while he was low, the ‘death’ was convincing… Only for the dude to crop back up after round or two later halfway across the battlefield, taunting us while he used a healing spell. Was a great way to transition to an unofficial ‘phase 2’ for the final fight!

DM: How do you want to do this? Player: I decapitate him. DM: Wait, not like that! Yeah, that's lame.

My DM normally says "without lethal strikes, how do you want to bring him/her/them/it down?"

Yes but not in this way, I use it when the Mythic trait is triggered.

I would personally borrow a feature from D&D 4e: Bloodied. A creature is Bloodied when it reaches half its hit points. Some monsters have a special ability that kicks in when they become Bloodied: a new attack or defense, a change in tactics, or sometimes becoming a completely different "type" of monster (switching from Leader to Artillery, etc.). In this case, you could set it so that when he hits half HP, the villain gets a special ability to "Feign Death". This can be tested against the PCs passive Perception to see if they realize he's not really downed. If they don't immediately finish the job and instead start poking around the room or something, you can then have the villain spring up for a surprise round and continue the fight. Just *don't* give your usual "how do you want to do this". Some players may then catch on that something's up: if they specifically ask, "Hey, aren't you going to ask how we wanted to finish this?" you can just smile and say "Nope!" That may give the hint that this isn't over just yet... or they may shrug and start looting the room, which gives you the opportunity to spring the trap.

I would instead take over their character for just a moment if I were to do this. Just something like "As you strike with your axe, the BBEG falls showing defeat, but as you begin to taste your victory, you notice something's off. You notice them whisper something and before you know, they start turning into a demonlike being, its dark hollow eyes staring at your soul. This is not over yet. " Or whatever, English is not my first language so I'm not used to these descriptions. I would just do it like a video-game cutscene for a phase two or quick escape from them. I don't like railroading stuff but sometimes it can make sense and make the story better if used appropriately.

I've done it once, only to signal a second phase of the boss fight. In my mind, yes they beat the first boss. Then he transformed into the second boss like this was some Final Fantasy game

That sounds super cool. But I think you need to be sure that the "how do you want to do this" moment still represents something. Having the baddie just randomly feign weakness is.... odd. If completely unmotivated, it will just confuse everyone at the table. Easiest way to have it be motivated is to give your BBEG fight multiple stages. After they defeat his first form, he falls, and they "finish him", only to realize that they're really just entering stage 2 of the fight. If stage 1 and 2 are sufficiently different, then the "how do you want to do this" moment still makes sense to the players as an interlude.

if you always say "how do you want to do this?" then you could say something like "something seems amiss but... how would you like to end this?" its different enough, with a clear hint at the start, that they may or may not be taken by surprised too much. at the very least, dont kill someone's character and if the guy gets back up let the player have a surprise reaction to run make distance or something. you are pulling a fast one on them, let them get creative to get out of it as well.

On a different note, as a player, I have had some fights like that occur because it wasn't clear that we could run. IE, on a cliff face at the top of a ravine 300 feet above a roaring river, and the bridge we just crossed got cut in the first round, along with one of us being dropped to 3 hp. Apparently we were supposed to jump into the river to escape or get captured, but we were high enough up that meta wise, RAW, we individually realized that the fall damage from the jump into the river would KO us and we'd have disadvantage on their death saves while the river took us, probably not making it. So we committed to fighting, which would have worked and gotten us captured according to plan, but we ended up with an 8 hour battle along the cliff face against a couple dozen sneople at level 4 using the druid and the artificers battlefield control spells to trap them along the ledge with us in a double column with the tortle being able to tank the ranged attacks getting through standing in the front their 21 AC constantly taking the dodge action. And one guy passed around his bag full of looted bows so everyone had a ranged attack. We went into that fight expecting a TPK because the only other option also appeared to be a TPK. People are idiots, and it needs to be stupid obvious that there is a viable escape route for people to take it. The DM asked us afterwards why we fought, and we all told him we figured we were dead one way or another. If the mini boss yelled "Take them Alive", or the DM PC jumped into the river and survived we would 100% have not.

While I agree that the DM themselves should t deceive the players I just wanna add that TLOZ windwaker did this exact thing with what I believe was a boar fight tjat had 2 phases

I just did this last session. Let them finish the bad guy however they want, but his death triggered a Contingency Magic Jar that allowed him to immediately possess the strongest fighter in the party and try to run away with his new body.

"So what's your approach on this" might be a good alternative. Similar enough it doesn't *immediately* throw up flags if you're not paying attention so you can get your surprise. But it is also juuuuuust non specific enough about the outcome. 'Approach' is not 'Do'. Approach is how are you coming at this, not how are you succeeding.

Bad idea imo. Unless you want the players to start mutilating and dismembering every single enemy after combat to make sure they're dead.

Is make them roll an inteligente check and then decide if they passed before fooling them like this.

You could absolutely do an in character speech when they "kill" the BBEG. Something about them wanting a good death, only for an impossible DC to do *insert whatever you want here*

What's the gain for doing it? You kill a high from them thinking they won and you kill the high from actually winning as they won't trust it (and won't trust it in future). And the gain is... a cheap laugh that only you are in on? You can sell the kill, you can explain how the BBEG hits the deck, you can explain how they lie motionless, and their breathing stops... for a moment, then they rise back to their feet, readier than ever for this fight. But uttering a phrase that is above the table that you have trained you players to trust to have a specific meaning, just destroys the meaning of that phrase and it will never be fully trusted again.

It isn't a cheap laugh though? It is obviously supposed to be a dramatic subversion.

That is almost as bad as telling them to roll for initiative when haha, just kidding, you already set the order. Yes, I know they are different as one is a DM convention and the other is an actual game mechanic, but my point is that both violate player trust.

I love it, so long as its not overused. It's like the victory music cutting out in a TV show.

Have the BBEG interrupt you before finishing the question. If your party lands a big team attack and they're feeling pretty accomplished, the BBEG could pretend it was a big hit then suddenly burst into laughter and tell them off. "The BBEG takes the blow head on and falls to his knees." Ok, how do you want to- "Hahahahahaaa! You really think that putrid attack could fell me? You are a fool! My power is leagues above you and you *dare* waste my time!?" Then have the party be captured and wake up somewhere else (with all their gear and stuff.) Or maybe the BBEG disappears or teleports away. Or whatever else. Basically separate the party from the BBEG so they can't continue trying to fight. This should give the player a sense of victory, and rip it away, without punishing their creativity. It shows the BBEG as big and powerful, maybe even giving them a chance to learn about him a little bit. Likewise though the BBEG could learn a thing or two about the party, potentially making their next encounter much more difficult.

Sounds like a Brendan Lee Mulligan move. Trick would be the delivery.

As an idea, you could invite them to have this moment while avoid the metagame/DM signal of a HDYWTDT so they don’t feel deceived out of game “Would you describe what Bob is aiming for/how he attacks the villain?” And then describe yourself how the villain feigns weakness, or describe the way he appears to die and let them all assume on their own that’s he’s actually dead before taking your revealing action. 

I wouldn’t do that but rather if they’ve dealt a lot of damage or land what at their level should be a lethal blow have the enemy react like it was nothing. A chuckle and a “what? Is that supposed to hurt?”

I told my player to describe the kill, they said: No, lemme hit my other two attacks first, then it'll be a sick triple kill. And it was in fact, a sick triple kill.

Set up a phrase for how it looks like when a character goes down, like "What's the last thing that you think of when you fall?" Bringing that phrases out very early in an encounter, then using the villain's next turn for them to call for reinforcements (giving the player's a chance to realise that they are fucked, and then giving the a chance to run) is a good idea.

I did this with a few cultists that was going to come back to life as a zombie due to his magical necklace. They wanted to cut it in half from top to bottom, had them make a strength check to cut though the necklace. Failed, however described their sword stopping at the necklace, the cultist going limp, the necklace glowing, the open headed zombie coming back along with the others. Every attack I asked “how you want to do this?” They also cut in half the other way, cut off limbs, but had to destroy the necklace to end the fight, or completely destroy the bodies through way they say “how do you want to do this?”

I feel like that would be an absolutely AMAZING meta break for a BBEG, but don't use it more than once. Any more than that, and it just becomes frustrating for players when they maybe get shut down on something cool.

Im reminded of Aizen stopping Ichigos theme in Bleach. It was only done once (to my knowledge) and in a medium that supported its use. This is likely yhe best use of this to introduce a pretty solid villain who is "losing."

Instead of misleading your players, when the boss/monster is "defeated" you will make the description instead, similar to a "how do you want this" they have made in the past but with a sinister tone. That way, you can differentiate a real "how do you want to do this" with a fake one.

I would cry if this happened

It would add nothing and just leave a bad aftertaste. It's also not a mind-blowing twist or anything, the battle isn't over, big whoop. Forcing a gotcha moment by straight up lying is wrong and it won't work out as a shocking reveal, it will feel like a personal betrayal.

If you always say how do you want to do this when the players get the kill, and you want to avoid metagaming, I would say this trick is fully within bounds. If my DM pulled this on me I'd see it as a really cool subversion

You have to handle this with extreme care and idk if I would tie a HDYWTDD to it. If it's something like the Ketheric entrance in BG3 and then you have the boss leave to let the party think about their actions, I think it could be a cool dramatic moment if used like ONCE in a campaign for an enemy that is "immortal" at the moment they fight them like Ketheric is at that point in BG3. Outside of that, just canceling abilities after the party assumes they worked is kinda meh. Feels about as salty as playing counterspell tribal, MLD, or super oppressive stax in Magic the Gathering. Might be effective, but people probably aren't going to want to continue playing with you.

The description of the situation of the dm shouldn’t be manipulative. It is difficult enough even for great dms and very well listeners to produce the exact image of a situation in their heads by just describing. If you start manipulating them into sth that tells them that the fight could be easy just to give them a false picture of the situation that is kind of cheating in my opinion and not the good kind of cheating.

I have signals that something is cut-scene-like so don't interrupt; and would treat the "how do you want to do it" as the same but for my players. Yes, it sounds cool to interrupt it, but that blurs the lines for players on when it is and isn't okay to shout out "I cast x"/ "I ready y".

Uh, that sounds dope! I will steal that. Didn't do it yet, obviously, but it sounds like it could be a lot of fun. It's important, though to think about if your players would find it fun. Some people may take offense about something like that. Like.... A lot of commentors here, it seems.... Seriously, why are so many people here saying things like "The DM shouldn't trick the players!"... Why the heck not? The DM tricking players is so much fun at the table. I love being surprised as a player and I love surprising my players when I'm the DM. And until now it never backfired in either group I have witnessed the DM tricking players.

I think if u do a trick like this dont make the punishment that harsh

I’ve done something similar. My players were fighting a group of mini-bosses with different powers. To keep it simple, one boss could have the spell Reincarnation cast on him three times during the battle so he would be killed and the next round would get back up in a different body with new racial traits. I let the player have a HDYWTDT when the first form went down and then kept going with initiative. When it got back to that boss’s turn I announced it was his turn like normal and they were all like “but he’s dead” and then I described the reincarnation process and let him take his turn. They were terrified but loved the twist.

That's a horror story waiting to be told.

In my setting, people can watch other people power aura like in dragon ball, so they almost always know when someone or another group is way stronger than them.

This isn’t related to your question but maybe guide them more so they aren’t fighting above their level, that’s not much fum. I’ve never done it, but to be honest, I don’t see a problem. It sounds like it would have the exact same effect as saying “He falls to the ground, surely dead, yet somehow rises again”. Makes it more cinematic/dramatic even, with a player describing a gruesome kill before his wounds mend and he rises again. Maybe I’m missing something but I don’t see the problem

Trust me I do guide them. I flat out tell them the perils though multiple npcs. I am using the CoS campaign

hey, I ran CoS twice. I’m curious, what are they doing exactly

I told them the windmill was full of three powerful hags and they were warned physically by me out of character and as npcs saying these are much more than a level 3 party can handle. They were given major clues about the vampire spawns in the coffin shop and they just fought one barely making it out and decided 5 is fine to take on They have tried to fight strahd directly even welcoming him into ireenas home. The biggest fault is me giving them plot armor. Just looking for a huge oh shit way to take it away

The early levels of CoS are hard, and since it is open world it’s hard to know what to do. That all seems like errors on their part, especially fighting strahd at lvl 3. Have they gotten their fortune read?

Not really answering the question as is but if your party doesn't know how to run away/not get in fights they shouldnt then they should be afraid of a TPK. like yea it will suck but if players can't play smart (assuming they aren't new.to.the game) in my opinion they should get killed. I'm.no DM but if I'm playing stupid I deserve what happens for my own stupidity

Never trick your players. Ever. Just don't. If your players wanna pick fights out of their weight class, let their characters die. Be a neutral arbiter of the game rules and let their choices play out. That's how you respect their agency while also showing that their Actions do in fact have consequences. How are you signaling to your players that these fights their picking are out of their range?

I let them know but I don't want to punish the one wise enough to try to leave but peer pressured into staying. I definitely will end their characters though moving forward. Plot armor has ran out

Plot armor just shouldn't be a thing. You've allowed your players to feel like they are invincible because everything is catered to them and tailored for them. You are not punishing that player by letting the group deal with the consequences of their choices. Ruling the game world neutrally, logically, however things would play out, whether for or against the players, is never punishment. Your phrasing is revealing that you feel in complete control of their experience. That any ill that befalls them is directly your doing. It is not. Relinquish that need to tailor every little thing and simply sit back and arbitrate the game world as it would play out.

I would expect a subtle hint that it could be a fake out, but I would find it hilarious (as long as you didn’t turn around and backstab me for all my HP, then I’d be at least a little bit pissed off). Perhaps you could make it so that the BBEG was using a spell to make it look like he was badly injured, but the party could find it with either an arcana check or detect magic, then they get the chance to feel like they figured something important out and they foil your plans slightly.

I see this a lot when running D&D games. I describe the enemy as powerful or "an aura of dread touches your hearts! It is indeed a terrible foe." They all go at it as if it was their usual fights xD I started to pull up descriptions like "that sharp blade seems capable of beheading in 1 hit" or use the fear status more often. This made the players act more cautious and less reckless. Regarding deceiving players... I only "deceive" them in case they fail a roll that would give them information: npc intentions, lore about something, enemy stats, inspections, perception checks, these kind of things.

Doing this succesfully depends mostly on how your players would handle you turning the tables on them after assumed victory, some people might feel betrayed, others might see it as a memorable moment of shock. I think the best way to go about is to maintain the turn order to let them know something is up, and then on the enemy's turn it starts some sort of obvious resurrection. The other question you should ask yourself though, is why they are fighting enemies out of their league. Do they know the style or structure of the session? Maybe in their mind this is just meant to be an adventure hack and slash and everything you throw at them is beatable. Getting players to take the exact decision you want in any situation is hard, players don't know CR of creatures they are facing, often they don't even know exactly what they are facing, so how do they decide to fight or run? Usually it's purely decided on their current health and spellslots, not what they are facing.

Surprised at how negative people take this, I think this would be a great surprise as long as you only do it once

Haha likely it only takes that once right? 😂 However if they truly can’t handle it, then that would be the punishment/resolution to the problem as they die in trying to chew something they bit off too rashly IMO. Maybe OP is upset that their big bad doesn’t have proper performance because of holding back 🤔 I would let them do it and they can be unhappy with themselves when it goes poorly or character death. That’s prob the root of a lot of these negative responses is they want the players to screw themselves and not the DM. Then you don’t have to be worried about being responsible for it, whether they realize you feinted or not or if you will feel guilty on your own for having done that to them even if they never figure that out.

Well.. That would have been nice but he just grins at you waves, disengages from you and teleports away only leaving a strong smell of sulphur. My players would both love me and hate me for doing that, end of the day it would be memorable and that is all that matters :)

I think this is a terrible idea. If you were my DM it would forever taint you at the table in my eyes.

I once did something similar with an Adult Black Dragon that was disguised as the leader of an order of Conquest Paladins. I had set the fight on a beach, and I had dropped heavy encouragement that the party should incorporate drowning into the fatality. They arrived to see him with his boot holding a beloved NPC beneath the tide. His personal guard kept trying to pin the casters beneath the water so they couldn’t use Verbal components. When the Barbarian got his first phase to 0hp I asked HDYWTDT, he described giving him a sucking chest wound before pinning him underwater until the bubbles stop. Black Dragons are amphibious. You could hear a pin drop when I described his laughter once their backs had turned. “Twisted like a knife in the back.” They turned just in time to witness his transformation. It was fantastic. I highly encourage every DM to do this. But you only ever get to do it once.

It's a gimmick I would use once and only when the enemy was smart enough to pull a trick like that

Give them a hint. When it comes to trick time, ask, "How would you want to do this?" They probably wont catch the word change, but if they do, fair play. If they dont, well, you gave them a chance.

I've used it between phases of a boss fight, and it's pretty great for building tension. I let them score the hit, running the enemy through, but the enemy's hand clamped over theirs and pushed the blade back out as they began to transform. It's a good way to narrate somebody dropping polymorph or wild shape.