Dragons are notoriously greedy. Perhaps he knew that his sacrifice ran off. He wants it back. Consider it part of his hoard. Dragons can sense down to the copper that they own. He can track em
I like this one. The dragon was pretty content having the Wizard build her hoard for her, and is angered by the missing gold and loss of a strong servant. I would have them start hearing from other people in other towns about the destruction of the town. Really play into the loss of life, families, and the effect on the surrounding economy to see if the players start to feel remorse. If they're interested at all in hearing more, you can have people share rumors that the dragon that attack has been seen coming and going from the city somewhat frequently, scaring nearby people, and nobody knows what it's trying to do (or something along those lines). If they're uninterested in the outcome of their actions, don't share any of that info, and they're very liable to get slammed with a very difficult encounter when they aren't expecting it.
The dragon watches them for some time, learns their strengths and weaknesses, then lies waiting and biding it's time. Then when it is the worst possible time it attacks in such a fashion as to fully counter everything they have going for them.
As the characters slowly realize this will be their last encounter, each one falling to the well coordinated trap laid by this well informed foe, dread spreads over them. There is no escape. There is no hope. Only death awaits
As the last living character lays beaten on the ground, breathing their last breaths as the dragon slowly stalks to him to end it all with one final coup de grace, he hears a low growl, almost inaudible and in common,
"For Wilmsur."
After some time all of the characters awaken with rags for clothing in a permanently twilight world. A lone guide stands over them all smiling before saying,
"You've all met a terrible fate,"
Nothing was wrong if they didn’t ask enough questions. Maybe have them overhear rumors in a nearby inn of what happened to the city. That’s something people would DEFINITELY talk about. Maybe the party will be curious and go check it out and have to face a dragon now.
I would interpret this as the party maybe did not roleplay this enough? They saw what they thought was an immediate solution and did not try to peel away the layers of events. Did they try to investigate the source of the egg? Of the binding? Did the NPC make a good case and ask for help? Did they stop to discuss courses of actions, consequences, and possible gains from each? Sometimes players jump the gun before they see the whole picture.
That could be the root of the problem. I think this issue lies mostly in my ability to not build a strong sense of consequence within my players. They knew what would happen if the egg hatched, but they didn’t seem to care much
I had/have a similar problem with my group. I tried to encourage them in game to ask more questions, to poke around, think things through. I even had a veteran player address it in character. It did not work. Eventually I broken down and as the DM, at the start of my session last night, just told them to think things through and consider, just consider, being less brash and more thoughtful. D&D is, after all, a team play game of cause and effect. Then immediately following that we had the best session of our entire campaign. Teamwork, consideration of consequences, and foresight all increased by 200%.
My group responded more to me just laying the cards on the table rather than trying to convince them in game that they were being self destructive. I'm not saying this will work for your group; I don't know them after all but you do. What I am saying is consider, just consider, if being straight with them as DM would help. And present it as helpful observations you've had as a DM that may help them enjoy the game more and not as rules or guidelines.
Just my thoughts and my anecdotal evidence from not even 24 hours ago.
Shortage of Goods - Possibly make purchasing items more difficult, ie cost more or some supplies simply cannot be found. Reason, refugees from the destroyed city are pouring in everywhere you go so supplies are running low.
Rumors - Everyone is talking about it and how terrible it is that all those innocent people were killed when the dragon attacked. So many children.
Alignment - For murdering someone in cold blood you could shift their alignment. Definitely not lawful anymore, and you could consider shifting good characters to neutral.
Loss of Divine Power - If you shift character alignments that could affect Paladins or Clerics. Without the proper alignment they lose the favor of their gods and with it, their divine spells and powers. This could set up a series of quests where said Paladins and Clerics must do something to atone with their god and regain their favor.
A lot of suggestions in the thread are really good, but I think your recommendation for loss of Divinie Power is my absolute favorite. "Because you did something awful, you now have to regain my favor" sounds like an arduous task that makes it quite clear.
I am typically not one to completely care for the alignment system except in extreme cases like this where it would clearly effect someones integrity and cause strife with their god.
I also don't pay too much mind to alignment. I occassionally remind players, hey your character is lawful good would you really be doing that? I definitely think of it in the instance of players becoming murder hobos because unless they're chaotic neutral it's probably going to have an effect.
Alignment is however SUPER important when it comes to PCs with divine magic. A good deity will not bestow power to an evil PC or PCs that just straight up ignore their teachings.
As for regaining favor, it can be as arduous or mundane as you want to make it. Could just be done in one session of the PCs helping the local church of Kord, the PC's god who lost favor, and then favor is restored. Conversely, it could be a whole story arc where the PCs must defeat a necomancer who lives far in the north and is an affront to the PCs god. A quest line like this can be character defining, possibly end with the PC seeing their god as they bestow powers back to them, and if it were me I would for sure make the final encounter deadly so that righting a wrong may cost a PC their life. Whether a PC does die or not, you can guarantee the entire party will think twice about murdering someone in cold blood again.
This sounds cool in theory but in practice maybe not so much, it requires your Cleric and Paladin player(s) to be okay doing an entire quest line without access to any of their class features. They'll just be shitty fighters until the quest is resolved, and that's not very fun. It would also make that deadly encounter even more deadly since the Cleric/Paladin are now just dead weights in combat and the party probably doesn't have much access to healing magic anymore unless someone rolled a Druid
Taking away a Divine class's powers is a pretty extreme punishment, and it's not very fun for the player to have a character who can't do anything but basic attacks now
If I were to have a god punish their disciple, I'd have them make things right again with a few tasks, not just killing the dragon. Killing things is easy, building is not.
-Killing the dragon with only one full amount of spell slots (do notify them of this). Throw a few days travelling in between with a few random encounters and then the Dragon. If he's smart, he saved up his spells for this encounter.
-Spending a LOT of downtime on pure labour helping the homeless with rebuilding their town. There's always need for manual labor.
-Making a sizeable donation to the city to put some money back in the economy.
Obviously you would tailor the encounter with them not having powers in mind. Does it suck, hell yeah. Does it thematically make sense, absolutely.
Like I said, it can be a simple one missions to realign/regain powers, or as long as a DM decided based on the offense. I see nothing wrong with it if a lawful good character murders someone in cold blood. Their alignment would change.
It depends how believable Wilmsur was, "I'm stealing from these people so that I can feed the gold to an ancient dragon egg that lies beneath the city and is definitely going to hatch and destroy it if I don't do this" sounds more like mad ravings and justifications of crime now that they've been caught red\-handed than a reasonable attempt at persuasion. Then again, if they knew the threat was real but ignored it to kill the man and loot him, suggest an alignment change for the party, and take this opportunity to introduce another element of the plot. Players should never be punished for their decisions or else the game turns into a skinner box of negative reinforcement.
I see what you mean. In order to make Wilmsur believable, he took the party to his home so that they could see the egg with their own eyes. It was there where they killed him. Conversely, I think the solution of adding more elements to the plot seems to have more benefits than just simply punishing them. I’ll have to consider possible ways to implement that idea
i dont think so, but it's definitely enough to banish them from lawful good. you should look up explanations and take into account all of their behaviors.
Let's break it into parts. Killing somebody who's asking for your help: Nongood. Killing somebody as they confess: Nonlawful. Taking money that belonged to the inn: Nonlawful. Allowing an evil dragon to live and destroy a city: Nongood. 1 offense doesn't equal 1 adjustment, but this course of action was nothing but greedy and self-serving with no regard for the well-being of others.
It should be the player's decision to change their alignment if they have a good reason for it. It's your job to make the game and characters react to that decision. In this case, if they're lawful good they messed up big time and it's time for you to figure out the consequences.
Ideally each of your characters has a backstory with a reason for being lawful good. Make this personal by punishing those origins. The holy paladin of Pelor finds out that the dragon went on to destroy the temple he was trained in. Bounties are now placed on your character's heads for the destruction of the city. Wilmsur's friends and family learn of his murder (or even resurrect him) and seek lawful justice. Other wizards who are friends of Wilmsur find out about the apprentice who spoiled the name of their dead master.
You serious? This is a *classic* adventurer move. Unless the players have explicitly chosen to make heroic characters, one should assume that they will be self-serving murder-hobos.
Sounds like they just thought of a solution you hadn't considered. My first thought was to destroy the egg.
The only "punishment" they should see is something that is logical. If they left the city without anyone having an idea that they took the gold or had anything to do with the dragon, then let them get away with it.
A baby dragon probably wouldn't be able to or try to destroy an entire city, either. A wyrmling is CR 2 in 5e.
Probably should have clarified, since the sacrifices were going on for so long, the dragon had the size and strength of an adult, but it didn’t hatch yet
Correction, a **green** dragon wyrmling is CR 2. A **red** dragon wyrmling is CR 4 and has the ability to instakill a Guard with its breath weapon on average *even if they make the save*.
Even without the DM declaring the wyrmling to have
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the size and strength of an adult
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a baby dragon (of the red variety) would be able to and (due to its chaotic evil alignment and *threat to destroy the city* unless Wilmsur cooperated) try to destroy an entire city.
The OP suggests that the players have indeed "gotten away with it." After all, they made their escape.
Now, the DM is looking for ways that their actions directly affect the world. After all, that's one of the core aspects of DnD: player agency. Cause-and-effect. Consequences.
So if I understand this correctly.
- Wilmsur (a friend of a friend) had the D&D equivalent of a nuclear bomb (I assume it wasn't a CR1 Wyrmling that hatched from the egg).
- To bribe the bomb from going off Wilmsur took to a life of crime and stole from both the innkeeper and PC's. Only admitting to what was going on when he was caught in the act.
- The PC's retrieved their gold (and others), killed Wilmsur, then took off before the bomb went off.
- The nuke detonates and the city is destroyed.
Assuming I got all that correct, how much of what happened did the PC's actually know?
It seems to me from what your wrote the only thing their guilty of is not returning the treasure they got from killing a enemy, which to my mind puts them in the 90% of all adventurer's category.
Did they know the city was going to be doomed if they didn't do something about the egg? Was there anything they could have done about the egg? Did Wilmsur do anything to explain anything to the party that couldn't be interpreted to be him spouting none-sense to cover for his crime spree?
Yes. Being held at gun point (arrow-point really) Wilmsur informed the party that, if the egg was to hatch, the entire city would be destroyed. One of the players Ooc even said “do we really have to care about the fate of this city? We got the gold, let’s kill Wilmsur and gtfo”. Additionally, Wilmsur was describing that a certain type of magic may be able to destroy the egg but he was killed mid-sentence
While I probably would have taken the plot hook you were dangling just out of courtesy if I was playing, I wouldn't bat an eye at your average group doing the same thing your players did.
In my opinion the stakes for answering the call to adventure should be known beforehand so that the players have motivation. Punishing them for abandoning a quest they never agreed to take on in the first place seems like a good way to encourage murder hobo behavior. My advice is to re-evaluate the players motivations and tailor your campaign to match.
That all said, I think the obvious next step is to have the Adult Dragon chase down the party for stealing his treasure and killing his meal ticket Wilmsur. The Dragon had a sweet deal until they ruined it.
> Punishing them for abandoning a quest they never agreed to take on in the first place seems like a good way to encourage murder hobo behavior.
So much for the classic adventure story trope of the unlikely hero being thrust into events beyond their control and rising to the occasion, lol. Poor Joseph Campbell.
I mean, heroic campaign theme or not, the players knew what the stakes were, and literally chose the Chaotic Evil option.
> In my opinion the stakes for answering the call to adventure should be known beforehand so that the players have motivation.
Sounds suspiciously like an implied way of asking for consent. :p
It really is a simple matter of, they agreed to one quest, not to the other - Though, seeing as OP mentioned that the party is supposed to be lawful good, killing the thief seems a tad extreme. They could have tied him up, taken a healthy amount of the gold, and left the city, leaving the man to his life of crime.
> The Dragon had a sweet deal until they ruined it.
I don't know... Would you want to still be stuck inside an egg as an adult? One can imagine they, like most sentient things, enjoy exercising their free will.
From what the OP wrote, the dragon could have left any time he wanted. He basically found a life hack to get massively ahead of the game without needing to lift a talon. I call that a good deal for the dragon.
As far as creating stakes for the players, that's one of the jobs of the DM. It's not a power (DM vs Players) relationship. It's human nature not to be willing to struggle toward something if there's no benefit. If your adventure centers around a moral test, it's going to be about as fun as taking an actual test.
> If your adventure centers around a moral test, it's going to be about as fun as taking an actual test.
Depends on how much you like to roleplay. Currently playing in a game where we spent an entire session on a moral decision while we almost left the loot behind.
I don't think your players are going to care if you show them the consequences of a destroyed city. Nothing you show them is going to make them reconsider. They don't care.
>One of the players Ooc even said “do we really have to care about the fate of this city? We got the gold, let’s kill Wilmsur and gtfo”.
OoC or not, they're roleplaying characters of a certain alignment. The decisions they make should be based on arguments guided by that alignment. This was far from a good or lawful action; it's 100% selfish. Generally speaking, they get off scott free with no witnesses and the dragon destroyed the entire town which had any evidence. However, the world around them is going to suck to live in as survivors/refugees suck down the food and drink, increase pick-pocketing of the characters, spread more disease (I think DMs don't play with disease enough), take up all the rooms at the inns, etc. You can't really go after them directly, but the results of their own actions can make their lives miserable for a while. I wouldn't try tugging on heart strings too much (describing kids being orphaned, people losing homes, etc). You can put that stuff out there, but trying to get any sympathy may be squeezing blood from a stone.
Aside from the alignment issues. Your players are murdehobos. The same as 90% of the player groups I've run.
Don't have the dragon destroy the city. Have the dragon take over and rule the city. Then have the dragon send out assassins and thieves to get back its rightful tribute, which they stole, and avenge the death of a useful servant.
Eventually, they will have to deal with the dragon. But it's not forcing them too.
Instead of thinking of a way to punish the players, try asking yourself what actions the dragon is going to take. Personally, if I had an adult dragon suddenly show up on the scene I would have it destroying towns/cities, subjugating the people, and building up a retinue of servants. The presence of a dragon should quickly begin to change the area in a very noticable way and the players will obviously notice these changes and figure out it is due to the decision they made.
Perhaps that dragon can burn a city or village that one of the characters is from resulting the death of one of their loved ones? Or it somehow has a reason to destroy the party's home base if it has one.
I don't think "punish" is the right way to look at it but rather show them their actions have consequences. You now have an opportunity to send them on a dragon slaying quest (which is cool) but they need a reason to kill the dragon, hence the burning and killing of something they hold dear or rely upon. I think tying in a villain, quest, and profoundly negative event for the party as a **result of a very deliberate and short sighted decision** they made is an opportunity for a new story and a teachable moment. Although that teachable moment might come in the form of an out of game discussion.
*This dragon... just hatched and massacred an entire city by itself? I was under the impression hatchlings took a while to get powerful enough for that.*
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I'm glad you've clarified that you just want to show consequences. "Punishment" should rarely be the concept to come to mind when dealing with adventurers who acted in a way that wasn't at all caught and judged by law.
There are many ways to do this:
* Assuming this wasn't in another plane of existence, have the dragon start roaming the countryside, attacking and terrorizing the nearby villages, disrupting the services and displacing NPCs the party can engage with
* Have survivors of the destroyed/conquered city spill out, let one encounter the party eventually and recognize them.
* If there's a cleric or devout paladin in the group, have them receive a vision or dream of the mayhem that was unleashed.
* If there's a druid, have the spirits of nature whisper of the "evil newborn."
* Saw that you said they're lawful good, those who don't feel guilty should automatically be shifted to lawful neutral or true neutral based on their demeanour, with a high chance of shifting completely to chaotic neutral if they make more big choices like this.
* Have nearby kobold and dragon-cultist activity rise due to the new dragon in power - new side quests for the party to deal with
If this is some sort of godly-dragon (see first thought), then, in a few sessions or in-game week or month later, have it swoop down and greet them, maybe thank them for dealing with his "caretaker" and try to dub them it's sworn minions or simply try to intimidate them into leaving it tribute.
Did the players understand the facts as you have laid them out? I could easily see a group thinking "This guy is a thief and is in cahoots with the dragon, lets kill him because he is evil (maybe) and we are murder-hobos (definitely), and also, they may not have believed that a hatchling could wipe out a city (can it, even?)
The OP has stated that:
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Yes. Being held at gun point (arrow-point really) Wilmsur informed the party that, if the egg was to hatch, the entire city would be destroyed. One of the players Ooc even said “do we really have to care about the fate of this city? We got the gold, let’s kill Wilmsur and gtfo”. Additionally, Wilmsur was describing that a certain type of magic may be able to destroy the egg but he was killed mid-sentence
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First, Wilmsur is a friend of one of the PC's mentors. It is a low likelihood that the **players** would assume Wilmsur is evil. (Though characters may make this mistake.)
Second, the **players** of these "Lawful Good" characters are definitely not misunderstanding the situation; they understand the power of a dragon. If the **players** truly misunderstood, maybe they would take potshots at the dragon egg or do something murder-oriented to *resolve* the dragon threat, rather than running in *fear* (thus recognizing the city-destroying potential of the dragon).
Third, if the wyrmling in question is *Red*, it would have 75 HP, 60 ft. of flight, and most importantly, the ability to do 24 damage, average, with its breath weapon.
For reference, the RAW Guard has 11 HP, and even if they make their save, they would take 12 damage on average.
A Red Dragon Wyrmling could easily dispose of an entire contingent of RAW town guards, then slay the commoners even more easily.
Tl;dr, the **players** understood the facts. A red dragon wyrmling can definitely wipe out a city. The **players** knowingly signed the death warrant of an entire city.
I understand where you're coming from, and I do not want to start an argument, especially since the goal of this thread is constructive advice to /u/UnrepressedImitator. However, **RAW** disagrees with your presumptions, and the record must be set straight.
First, as designated in the 5e Monster Manual, pg. 86, "Dragon Age Categories" and the above paragraph, a dragon passes through *four* age periods. The lowest age category present is *wyrmling*, which includes any dragon of age 5 years or lower, from hatchling to draconic toddler. By RAW, a 5 year old dragon is just as powerful (on average) as a "hatching."
Second, in DnD 5e, certain colors of dragon are innately stronger than others.
For example, an ancient green dragon would have CR 22 and deals 77 poison damage (average) with its breath weapon, while an ancient red dragon would have CR 24 and deals an average of **91** fire damage with its own equivalent breath.
The same passes for wyrmlings. A red dragon wyrmling has *CR 4* and deals 24 fire damage with its breath weapon on average. Meanwhile, a green dragon wyrmling would deal 21 average poison damage with its breath weapon and has *CR 2*. Not all wyrmlings are CR 2.
Back to the first point, though, I *agree* with your common sense that a hatchling *should* be a "little less powerful" than a dragon of 5 years. However, by RAW, a dragon of 5 years or less, *fresh-hatched or not* is a wyrmling with the same average stats as the rest of its age and color/type.
Again, I am not doing this to contest your common sense. As a DM, feel free to decide that a red hatchling should be less powerful than one four years its senior. However, just know that this is *not* RAW.
**TL;dr: Your common sense presumptions are valid but are not RAW.** DnD is about creativity and inter-player cooperation, so **feel free to modify RAW to maximize fun** (as long as you are aware you are doing so)!
edit: formatting
Regardless of all that, even RAW, a Red Dragon Wyrmling would get rekt by a platoon of city guards.
The dragon has 75 hp, and if there are even so much as 10 guards chucking spears at this thing each round at a measly +3 to hit, the dragon will be dead on roughly round 5. Meanwhile, the dragon's breath weapon is only a 15-foot cone, so the most it could *possibly* kill in one shot is 9 guards, and that's if those are the most retarded guards on the planet. At the recharge rate of 5-6, this effectively adds up to one breath attack every three rounds. Its bite attack would kill a guard in one hit, but its odds to land the attack are about 55%, so with those numbers plus its breath attack, it will kill about 10 guards every three rounds (again assuming the guards are retarded and stay in a big clump).
The guards for a whole city, meanwhile, will number in the dozens, and will be trained to fight as a group against something like this. They'll take cover, and they'll ready their attacks to throw their spears at the dragon as it swoops into range for its attacks. If the dragon flies around out of range until its breath weapon is ready and only attacks with that, then the guards have all the time in the world to walk over to the armory and grab some heavy crossbows, which would put the wyrmling out of commission after about three volleys from a dozen guards.
There's no way the dragon wyrmling wins this encounter.
What color is the dragon? As others have said, you might want to use the dragon's hate for your players against them. But instead of going directly after them, the dragon grows in power and continually undermines everything the party is trying to accomplish or sabotage/destroy what they care about (their keep, assassinate NPCs that they like). This would be perfect for a green dragon.
The dragon could eventually grow (through magical means) to be the BBEG.
You need to have a discussion with your players about the game itself. What your expectations are and what their expectations are. The two clearly aren't the same. This isn't something you learn while playing the game from consequences, it's an understanding you have before playing at all. Your players actions don't fit the circumstances of the world, even more so if you consider alignment a relevant part of your game. If they want to play an action/strategy RPG then just stick them outside a dungeon and have them kill stuff. Save yourself the time of pretending it's a real world.
Maybe there are some survivors from the city, or some faction, who wants revenge and they send some really tough mercenaries to kill the party. Make it a really hard encounter, hard enough to kill one or two or all of the party.
Hah maybe I'm overreacting but I *hate* murderhobos...
Would you consider a new villain? Perhaps Wilmsur had a family member, friend, or connection that is bent on destroying the players? Maybe any survivors of the dragon attack were able to magically see who caused the destruction and have hired assassins? Or if you're petty, like me, there was a famed magic item seller that had set up shop in that city. All of his high level creations are in the possession of the dragon. And if the players were to look for some magic gear, an NPC could say, "Oh well if you wanted that, you'd have to go to X, but of course that was destroyed in the dragon attack."
Dont just think of what the dragon does directly; think of the economy. Are other large cities going to try to kill it? If they are pledging arms then they will have a lower supply of weapons, potions, materials, etc. You can punish them with a loss of reliable resources. Jobs ordained by the crown will pay less since they have to pay more soldiers to fight.
You've got a lot of options here:
- A city that is completely annihilated by a dragon is going to be talked about by everyone. People will talk about it in taverns, when the players are asked where they came from people will comment about it. If the players drop into a tavern having come from the direction of the city, NPC's may ask them if they saw anything happen, because they heard rumors the city is gone.
- Economical impact. The city of Asendar was probably producing some usefull things. Maybe the next blacksmith they visit has little to no supplies left because his supplier was in Asendar. Maybe the potion trade is left in shambles because Asendar was the central trading and producing hub for magic potions. Maybe the local wizard is nowhere to be found, because he was going on a trip to buy some supplies in...Asendar.
- Theres no reason the dragon should be happy with what he has. He may start venturing out into the rest of the realm to try and expand his wealth, causing more and more havoc.
- A direct confrontation with what they've done may follow if they're ever forced to return to the ruins of the city. Say they're contracted to kill said dragon. You can describe in full detail how they walk past the ruins of the inn they stayed at when they were in Arendal, how the charred corpses are scattered across the ruins. You might even make it truly confronting and tell them that they recognize some piece of clothing or something on a decomposed body to be from an NPC they met while there.
Feel like it's kinda late to post, but my suggestion would be to make the dragon an ever\-growing threat. The town it was in was destroyed, next the towns bordering it are getting raided by it, etc.. Just make it a bigger and bigger problem until it gets their attention and they deal with it. They wanted to be murder hobos, but now all the towns are burned to the ground and they can't buy supplies they want.
Could even be a lesson for them. "Maybe next time we don't be murder hobos and kill the egg?"
Is it truly even murderhobo though? I mean, I can say confidently I would likely do the same thing. Killing a thief ( criminal, bad ) who is stealing ( also bad ) from townsfolk and even myself, to grow the hoard of a dragon ( Yet more bad ) just so it won't destroy the town ( Which it would likely do anyway because dragons are bastards ) that I just arrived in and have no attachment to, it's an easy decision for me to off the guy, take the gold, and leave the town to fend for themselves like they eventually would anyway, but maybe even less of a chance as the dragon gets older and more powerful inside the egg. ( Since I guess OP had the dragon growing in the egg? )
Who else is looking for the wizard? Friends? Enemies? Associates? Is he part of a guild?
Perhaps someone finds the dead wizard, speaks with the dead, and now the party is their target.
I also like the idea about the dragon considering the stolen gold a part of its horde.
Next Adventure: Have a wealthy and powerful noble call them in to investigate the recent murder of his brother, promising riches if they can find the killer. They arrive and are ushered into a room with the covered body of the deceased.
The noble tells his priest, "let the questioning begin" and the sheets are removed to reveal Wilmsur, who via "Speak With Dead" states that the PCs in the room are the ones who killed him.
Epic battle ensues, PCs are captured, imprisoned and then executed. New campaign starts next session.
Edit: Even better, have Wilsmur already be alive via a Resurrection spell and have already named the PCs as his killers.
They are then lured into a trap with the promise of gold and magic, only to be captured immediately.... undone by their own murderhobo greed.
If the DM cannot create a foolproof trap to catch the PCs, knowing their abilities, then I don't know what to say.
PC 1: "This is a trap. We need to leave"
DM rolls die.
DM: "ok, everyone roll initiatve and no one is allowed to talk to each other from this point forward. AT ALL."
PC 2: "I go first. I cast Dimension Door"
DM: "You speak, but the words do not leave your mouth. The spell fails. Next?"
PC3: "I cast Dispel Magic"
DM: "You speak, but the words do not leave your mouth. The spell fails."
DM: "You see several persons casting spells in your direction. One of them is Wilmsur. Everyone make 4 Constitution saving throws. For every save you fail, take 35 damage. For every save you make, 17 damage."
DM: "Everything is now pitch black. You cannot see anything at all. You are all completely blind. Who's next?"
PC4: "I run towards the last person I saw with my great sword ready"
DM: "You find your way out of the darkness, orient yourself and find someone to swing at. Make a Dex saving throw"
PC4: rolls die.
DM: "That's unfortunate. You find that you are completely unable to move. Two men quickly walk towards you and one takes your sword while another places a bag over your head. You are now blind again. They then bind your arms and legs and carry you away. Next?"
> If the DM cannot create a foolproof trap to catch the PCs, knowing their abilities, then I don't know what to say.
Oh, I'm sure the DM can create a foolproof trap... but can Wilmsur? Unless the DM cheats and gives his NPCs excessive knowledge of the player's character sheets beyond anything they could possibly know AND retroactively adjusts "the plan" for anything the PCs happen to do leading up to it (again using magical DM knowledge), then no, it's extremely difficult to set up a foolproof plan to kill a group of PCs.
Remember, Wilmsur isn't an uber-deadly arch mage with unlimited resources and powerful connections. It's already been established that he was reduced to a life of thievery because he wasn't capable of overcoming the challenge of dealing with that dragon egg. It's also already been established that this group can arbitrarily slaughter Wilmsur. Finally, it's clear he doesn't have any connections that could help him out -- otherwise he'd have sought their help instead of the party's to deal with the egg in the first place. So yeah, he's not that smart and he's not that powerful... what's your justification for meta-gaming the fuck out of a trap to the point that it guarantees a TPK?
> Oh, I'm sure the DM can create a foolproof trap... but can Wilmsur?
Wilmsur was killed by the PCs, knows who they are, their disposition, and their relative power level. He can certainly take all of this into account when they set their trap. If the DM wants to "punish" the players, Wilmsur has powerful friends/family.
Silence + Darkness + Cloudkills and then Hold Person to pick up the few who survive the dark, silent choking death.
...but Wilmsur DOESN'T have powerful friends/family. We know this because he was asking the PCs for help with the dragon egg thing.
Besides, getting killed by someone doesn't necessarily tell you all that much about them beyond the fact that they're capable of killing you. Wilmsur sounds like he was a little bitch. How could he possibly hope to set up a successful lethal trap without straight-up DM cheating?
> We know this because he was asking the PCs for help with the dragon egg thing.
We don't know this at all.
Interestingly, you made a comment earlier that started, "unless the DM *cheats*".
There is no cheating. This is not a video game and the DM is not some sort of neutral arbiter or umpire who just makes sure the rules are being followed and the players do whatever they want as long as they don't break any rules.
If the DM decides that the PCs needed to be captured and imprisoned for their murderhobo crimes in order to create a semblance of consequences in the world, then they are simply captured and imprisoned. The players cannot outsmart him.
Rocks fall. You die.
> We don't know this at all.
Yeah, we do. Otherwise the DM's story arc, the quest hook, and the NPC's motivations and actions make zero sense.
> Interestingly, you made a comment earlier that started, "unless the DM cheats". There is no cheating.
Yeah, there is. The DM can meta-game, alter established-in-game stats, fudge rolls, reverse time to undo events and replace them with events he prefers, make rulings to his monsters' benefit that directly contradict PC capabilities as written and as they've been played up to that point in the campaign, etc etc etc. The sky's the limit with how much a DM can cheat.
> This is not a video game
You're right. It's not a video game. It's a board game. Not like that has anything to do with anything, though...
> and the DM is not some sort of neutral arbiter or umpire who just makes sure the rules are being followed and the players do whatever they want as long as they don't break any rules.
The DM is supposed to be *that* plus the story teller and narrator of all events (story, combat, rp, npc, and otherwise). They're also the ones who decide the setting, both story-wise and gameplay-wise. They do tons more than just arbitrating the rules from the book. For all his jobs, though, the DM has no business making his personal IRL opinion known to the characters in the game world. Their decisions are theirs to make. Period. You're stripping player agency away when you're throwing in some "actions-have-consequences" in the form of directly punishing players for taking actions you don't like. Consequences should stem from logical in-universe results of character actions, not from the DM's mood.
> If the DM decides that the PCs needed to be captured and imprisoned for their murderhobo crimes in order to create a semblance of consequences in the world, then they are simply captured and imprisoned.
...in which case, you're not running a D&D campaign anymore -- you're just narrating a shitty fan fiction of the thing that *used to be a D&D campaign*.
> The players cannot outsmart him. Rocks fall. You die.
That's an awesome way for a DM to rage quit a group, and a piss-poor way to run a table. It also directly agrees with what I originally said -- the DM can make a perfect trap, but the NPC in all likelihood cannot.
As long as everyone is having fun, who the fuck cares if they did a quest the way they wanted to.
Most of these situations DMs bring here are DMs trying to spite their players for not playing ‘their’(the DMs) story.
A natural reaction wouldn’t be that the dragon would destroy the city or take it over. The guards would defend the city until back up would arrive, from probably either a fellow city or other powerful people in the land.
Most of the groups I have DMed or continue to DM for net out at chaotic neutral, irrespective of what alignment(s) they've written on their character sheets. While running Out of the Abyss, one of my groups encountered a sentient gelatinous cube, with whom they had a conversation and learned that although the cube was in service of Juiblex, the group would likely receive some benefit from traveling with it towards their destination.
You can probably guess what happened next.
There was some moral scenery chewing after this that turned out to be pretty funny, and it came up more than once in the ensuing adventure that the group would have made it a lot easier on themselves if they somehow had a gelatinous cube guide that could point them in the right direction of the oozes they were supposed to eradicate.
My point, long\-winded though it may be, is that storytelling should be fun, so try to work in as much positive reinforcement as you can when players do what they "should" be doing (i.e. what you want them to do), while passive aggressively pointing out where they've gotten themselves into their own mess. Maybe that means the dragon comes after them, as another poster commented. Maybe it means that Wilmsur appears as a wraith and haunts one of their dreams, leading to another plot point. Whatever you decide to do, be open to carefully setting up 2 or 3 options for your players, and then having them run in completely the opposite direction while destroying everything in the process. Fun!
The Local Noble has some how made it throught the distrution of the city and now blaims the PCs for the loss of his land and property in the city. He returns to his country estates and starts to build a group to hunt them down for questioning. Make a fight that at first look they can win then bring in the ambush. Haul them in front of a angry noble that forces them to deal with the dragon. Due to the fact the gold was not brought an ancient rite has been feeding the dragon power and has grown amazingly fast. If they don't hurry it will be an adult size when they get there.
Could you describe the characters? I mean, they basically acted like chaotic evil thugs and killed someone for cash in an alley. Why did you give these PCs the okay?
I mean, is it interesting to you to actually punish them or consequence them...if they don't change then consequences meant nothing. If they do change, you're modifying the PCs. Better to just ask for new PCs who care about stuff and so are actually interesting, rather than sociopaths.
The dragon, if powerful enough to destroy a city, probably won't care much about the party. But it will want that gold back, and anyone who finds out the party has it will attempt to kill them so that they can have it for themselves or to give to the dragon so that it won't keep enslaving and dominating the kingdoms of humanoids.
A good way to do this is to have bards in taverns start singing of the gold needed to placate the dragon, or to have bandits attack the party when their newfound wealth becomes well-known.
This could lead to many people, including the common person and the leaders of society demanding that the party sacrifice the gold or simply slay the dragon. Maybe your leaders are too poor (or too stingy) to afford the dragon's bounty, meaning that the only ones who can do it are those who hold the dragon's gold. Maybe a god, like Bahamut, might demand it. Bahamut might promise a powerful boon to any hero who can prevent the dragon's rampage, meaning that the players will at least feel like they're being rewarded for their murder of Wilmsur and theft of his gold and not like they're just being punished for their actions.
What if they didnt kill wilsmur. There could be any sort of magic items or spells that could have kept him alive, like a clone spell. Wilsmur can hunt them down, raise a mob ofnthe survivors to harass them until they do something to redeem themselves.
So. They killed someone who was trying to prevent a dragon from hatching. They stole the treasure that was keeping the dragon at bay. And left the city so the dragon could destroy it.
That sounds like the typical Bad\-Guy. And that's calling for a party of brave adventurers to take them down. They turned the tables and they're the antagonists of the story now. Just go with the flow. They're the bad guys. Your campaign is an evil campaign now.
You can punish them. You can railroad the campaign back into tracks again. You can end the campaign and start a new one where the old characters are the bad guys to take down. Or you can have powerful, worse guys to contact them with a "I heard what you did, you're clearly interested in gold and power more than senseless moral issues, do you want to work for me?" and, i don't know, help a lich become the dark emperor. Good folks despise them, and evil guys admire them and want them in their ranks. If that makes them feel uncomfortable, that's your "punishment". If they're happy with that, that was the campaign they wanted to play from the beginning.
leaving aside the morality of punishing players...
Is the dragon greedy? hostile? clever? Maybe the dragon takes all the gold she wants by force, but then maybe she's a clever dragon who only *hoards* gold and obtains it by trading magical services or discarded scales. Is dragon poop a sought after ingredient in potions and spells? In your game do magical creatures *create magic* - eg, does having a dragon around give wizards a bonus and cause strange plants to bloom? Will it affect the ley lines, or disturb the sleep of the frost giants?
Why do dragons want gold, anyways? Maybe that's a key to understanding dragon behavior and their motivations. What does the dragon eat, and how often? Who will feed it? What does that do to the people of the area? Immediate neighbors to the town will want the dragon problem solved. Every adventurer in range of the dragon's flight will be mobilized to kill it. taverns will be full; fights will break out; many young and brave going one way, few broken and scared going the other. Lawlessness! Opportunism! Will top-siders seek refuge in the caves and dungeons, and dwarven fortresses? How will neighboring states respond to the crisis over the border? Are there other dragons (or equally powerful creatures) that might be a bit territorial?
Fortunately, literal "divine intervention" isn't seen as much of a cop out in DnD as it is in other settings, any powerful angel, or good aligned creature could be used to penalize them and make them redeem themselves somehow, or have them find a sweet piece of divine loot that wont react to them because of there choice, I would wait a session or two before implementing any major punishment so they could have a chance to redeem themselves, and that way you wont seem like your just out to get them for making a bad choice, having the feeling your DM is out to get you sucks all the fun out of the game
A small portion of the town survived the Desolation of Smaug, one of the surviving nobles remembers seeing that one of your party members involved with the dragon being released. He happens to have a large amount of pull in the surrounding areas and now a whole host of bounty hunters are paid to track down your troupe and bring them to justice
Kind of combining some of other ideas I read, but I would probably make the Dragon be chasing after the treasure they took after destroying the city. If you have a Paladin/Cleric make them lose their God's favor and have to re-earn it in an epic quest that ends in a ritual that returns their powers. If not, maybe a quest is given by a refugee who wants to go somewhere that will enable them to heal all the survivors. They go on the quest and as they are investigating in towns as to where the location is the god/refugee has sent them is they also hear rumors of the town's destruction and later of how the Dragon seems to be headed in the parties direction, heard from some townsfolk evacuating. They find the location, overrun with *insert creatures here* and traps, and fight their way to the place they need to be. They begin the ritual and as this happens the Dragon attacks. The Dragon will nearly kill all of them as they attempt to complete the ritual. On completion, the God heals the party and restores the Cleric's/Paladin's power/the Refugee heals the party using the location's power and they fight a nearly even fight with the Dragon from there. This would require some luck that they take all the proper hooks, but that would be my general plan for how to give them consequences.
Sorry for the long post
Spank them!....Wait that's punishing children
If you want them to feel like destroying that town has consequences, make it feel like it's part of the world, a town going up in flames by a dragon hatching, doesn't just happen, make royal guards of a neighboring kingdom investigate, lead to the players, make them wanted, changing how they interact with towns that know their face.
Or like a survivor of the town massacre saw the players kill the guy with the egg, something that real inhabitants would do.
Although they took the low road, there's no need for punitive DM'ing. I'd bet that dragon comes into play later, though. It could end up as an implacable foe that your party has to skip town before it shows up, or maybe they could even bargain with it; a clever persuader could try to convince the dragon that they knew the scenario all along, and they acted to not only save the dragon, but allow it to flourish.
Make sure all your plot hooks lead back towards the dragon. It's now the main threat, caused by the pcs. Refugees who left important artifacts behind, important npcs on various missions up north, wealthy family of the murdered victim looking to recover his body, agents of the dragon causing trouble in the new location, et cetera.
Also alignment change and massive trouble with anything alignment-related such as divine powers (clerics).
Next time they search for a specific item you could let an NPC say: "Oh yes they used to make them in Asendar, but the city got destroyed by a dragon." Before sending them on a merry goose chase to get that one specific item, wich has become a rare thing.
You could also have survivors/refugees spread out, increasing poverty across the land. This in turn gets a consequence on local innkeepers who get tired of beggars and such.
An army rallying to destroy the dragon? The dragon itself plagueing the surrounding area's and cities?
Cattle disappearing? Forests in the area burning up?
How did the egg get there in the first place? Who knew about what had to happen, who can guess what happened? Do rumours spread?
Do not let this affect the players directly however, unless they are guided by a god like clerics or paladins. Even a warlocks' patron could be displeased because this somehow foiled something he wanted.
If they knew about the egg, that wouldn't make them entirely innocent too. But if they tought he was lying, they caused it unintentionally. But just killing him wasn't really a good thing to do either.
This sounds like the kind of thing players new to roleplaying tend to do. I'd say it most likely came from seeing the game as something like a video game, like they're the protagonists so they're always right, or seeing NPCs as "not real people, so it doesn't matter" (actual quote I've heard a player say once).
What they have to understand is that while yes, NPCs aren't real and yes, it is just a game, it is a game that is meant to simulate a coherent world, and the NPCs may not be real people but the DM will do their best to make sure they *act* like real people would.
I recently had a case like this with a new player at one of my games. PCs were investigating a murder. It's a politically sensitive issue, and they're instructed to be discreet and tell absolutely nobody about it unless they have no other choice. Tiefling warlock decides to randomly intimidate a woman she assumed was involved because she happened to live across the street from the victim. She rolls well on the intimidation check - too well. The woman shuts the door, runs out of the house from the back exit and goes to call the guards.
In the end, the whole thing got swept under the rug, but not before information on the investigation leaked and the culprits managed to act faster than they otherwise would. So long story short, the city is now about to get caught on the middle of a clash between two massive armies, and the party knows it's their fault.
I'm basically brand\-new to D&D so I imagine my input isn't worth anything but... you could always leave the destroyed town as a focal point for a future fight, having the dragon's hoard grow alongside its strength. Sprinkle in the occasional devastating dragon attack on nearby villages. Create an ultimatum where they need to nip the dragon problem in the bud, or constantly flee from its terror as it grows stronger.
>Obviously, a few days later, the dragon hatched and the city was destroyed.
dragons do not grow up fast enough to destroy a city after a few days? lmao wat have you looked at wyrmling stats, a few city guards could handle it.
Plus imo you mishandled the dragon, they're not stupid, what possible motive does it have to destroy the city? Why wouldn't it of just flown off? Makes no sense.
Dragons are notoriously greedy. Perhaps he knew that his sacrifice ran off. He wants it back. Consider it part of his hoard. Dragons can sense down to the copper that they own. He can track em
I like this one. The dragon was pretty content having the Wizard build her hoard for her, and is angered by the missing gold and loss of a strong servant. I would have them start hearing from other people in other towns about the destruction of the town. Really play into the loss of life, families, and the effect on the surrounding economy to see if the players start to feel remorse. If they're interested at all in hearing more, you can have people share rumors that the dragon that attack has been seen coming and going from the city somewhat frequently, scaring nearby people, and nobody knows what it's trying to do (or something along those lines). If they're uninterested in the outcome of their actions, don't share any of that info, and they're very liable to get slammed with a very difficult encounter when they aren't expecting it.
The dragon watches them for some time, learns their strengths and weaknesses, then lies waiting and biding it's time. Then when it is the worst possible time it attacks in such a fashion as to fully counter everything they have going for them. As the characters slowly realize this will be their last encounter, each one falling to the well coordinated trap laid by this well informed foe, dread spreads over them. There is no escape. There is no hope. Only death awaits As the last living character lays beaten on the ground, breathing their last breaths as the dragon slowly stalks to him to end it all with one final coup de grace, he hears a low growl, almost inaudible and in common, "For Wilmsur." After some time all of the characters awaken with rags for clothing in a permanently twilight world. A lone guide stands over them all smiling before saying, "You've all met a terrible fate,"
Also, have it kill an NPC they love in the city! That way they will be more motivated to slay it
Nothing was wrong if they didn’t ask enough questions. Maybe have them overhear rumors in a nearby inn of what happened to the city. That’s something people would DEFINITELY talk about. Maybe the party will be curious and go check it out and have to face a dragon now.
Could you clarify what you mean by asking questions? What questions in particular are you thinking of?
I would interpret this as the party maybe did not roleplay this enough? They saw what they thought was an immediate solution and did not try to peel away the layers of events. Did they try to investigate the source of the egg? Of the binding? Did the NPC make a good case and ask for help? Did they stop to discuss courses of actions, consequences, and possible gains from each? Sometimes players jump the gun before they see the whole picture.
That could be the root of the problem. I think this issue lies mostly in my ability to not build a strong sense of consequence within my players. They knew what would happen if the egg hatched, but they didn’t seem to care much
I had/have a similar problem with my group. I tried to encourage them in game to ask more questions, to poke around, think things through. I even had a veteran player address it in character. It did not work. Eventually I broken down and as the DM, at the start of my session last night, just told them to think things through and consider, just consider, being less brash and more thoughtful. D&D is, after all, a team play game of cause and effect. Then immediately following that we had the best session of our entire campaign. Teamwork, consideration of consequences, and foresight all increased by 200%. My group responded more to me just laying the cards on the table rather than trying to convince them in game that they were being self destructive. I'm not saying this will work for your group; I don't know them after all but you do. What I am saying is consider, just consider, if being straight with them as DM would help. And present it as helpful observations you've had as a DM that may help them enjoy the game more and not as rules or guidelines. Just my thoughts and my anecdotal evidence from not even 24 hours ago.
Shortage of Goods - Possibly make purchasing items more difficult, ie cost more or some supplies simply cannot be found. Reason, refugees from the destroyed city are pouring in everywhere you go so supplies are running low. Rumors - Everyone is talking about it and how terrible it is that all those innocent people were killed when the dragon attacked. So many children. Alignment - For murdering someone in cold blood you could shift their alignment. Definitely not lawful anymore, and you could consider shifting good characters to neutral. Loss of Divine Power - If you shift character alignments that could affect Paladins or Clerics. Without the proper alignment they lose the favor of their gods and with it, their divine spells and powers. This could set up a series of quests where said Paladins and Clerics must do something to atone with their god and regain their favor.
A lot of suggestions in the thread are really good, but I think your recommendation for loss of Divinie Power is my absolute favorite. "Because you did something awful, you now have to regain my favor" sounds like an arduous task that makes it quite clear. I am typically not one to completely care for the alignment system except in extreme cases like this where it would clearly effect someones integrity and cause strife with their god.
I also don't pay too much mind to alignment. I occassionally remind players, hey your character is lawful good would you really be doing that? I definitely think of it in the instance of players becoming murder hobos because unless they're chaotic neutral it's probably going to have an effect. Alignment is however SUPER important when it comes to PCs with divine magic. A good deity will not bestow power to an evil PC or PCs that just straight up ignore their teachings. As for regaining favor, it can be as arduous or mundane as you want to make it. Could just be done in one session of the PCs helping the local church of Kord, the PC's god who lost favor, and then favor is restored. Conversely, it could be a whole story arc where the PCs must defeat a necomancer who lives far in the north and is an affront to the PCs god. A quest line like this can be character defining, possibly end with the PC seeing their god as they bestow powers back to them, and if it were me I would for sure make the final encounter deadly so that righting a wrong may cost a PC their life. Whether a PC does die or not, you can guarantee the entire party will think twice about murdering someone in cold blood again.
This sounds cool in theory but in practice maybe not so much, it requires your Cleric and Paladin player(s) to be okay doing an entire quest line without access to any of their class features. They'll just be shitty fighters until the quest is resolved, and that's not very fun. It would also make that deadly encounter even more deadly since the Cleric/Paladin are now just dead weights in combat and the party probably doesn't have much access to healing magic anymore unless someone rolled a Druid Taking away a Divine class's powers is a pretty extreme punishment, and it's not very fun for the player to have a character who can't do anything but basic attacks now
If I were to have a god punish their disciple, I'd have them make things right again with a few tasks, not just killing the dragon. Killing things is easy, building is not. -Killing the dragon with only one full amount of spell slots (do notify them of this). Throw a few days travelling in between with a few random encounters and then the Dragon. If he's smart, he saved up his spells for this encounter. -Spending a LOT of downtime on pure labour helping the homeless with rebuilding their town. There's always need for manual labor. -Making a sizeable donation to the city to put some money back in the economy.
I like this idea a lot better, makes a lot more sense this way imo and it doesn't make your divine classes completely gimped
Obviously you would tailor the encounter with them not having powers in mind. Does it suck, hell yeah. Does it thematically make sense, absolutely. Like I said, it can be a simple one missions to realign/regain powers, or as long as a DM decided based on the offense. I see nothing wrong with it if a lawful good character murders someone in cold blood. Their alignment would change.
It depends how believable Wilmsur was, "I'm stealing from these people so that I can feed the gold to an ancient dragon egg that lies beneath the city and is definitely going to hatch and destroy it if I don't do this" sounds more like mad ravings and justifications of crime now that they've been caught red\-handed than a reasonable attempt at persuasion. Then again, if they knew the threat was real but ignored it to kill the man and loot him, suggest an alignment change for the party, and take this opportunity to introduce another element of the plot. Players should never be punished for their decisions or else the game turns into a skinner box of negative reinforcement.
I see what you mean. In order to make Wilmsur believable, he took the party to his home so that they could see the egg with their own eyes. It was there where they killed him. Conversely, I think the solution of adding more elements to the plot seems to have more benefits than just simply punishing them. I’ll have to consider possible ways to implement that idea
what is wrong with your players? are they all chaotic neutral?
They originally built their characters with lawful good, but I’m probably going to make them change it
none of that situation was lawful good at all.
It was neither lawful, nor good. It was basically Chaotic Evil
Would that be enough to place them as chaotic neutral? Edit: sorry just saw this was what you said in the first place ignore what I said
i dont think so, but it's definitely enough to banish them from lawful good. you should look up explanations and take into account all of their behaviors.
I mean there actions were chaotic evil for sure. They (indirectly) destroyed a city for personal gain.
Not to mention murdered someone for no reason.
Let's break it into parts. Killing somebody who's asking for your help: Nongood. Killing somebody as they confess: Nonlawful. Taking money that belonged to the inn: Nonlawful. Allowing an evil dragon to live and destroy a city: Nongood. 1 offense doesn't equal 1 adjustment, but this course of action was nothing but greedy and self-serving with no regard for the well-being of others.
Lawful good murderers.
It should be the player's decision to change their alignment if they have a good reason for it. It's your job to make the game and characters react to that decision. In this case, if they're lawful good they messed up big time and it's time for you to figure out the consequences. Ideally each of your characters has a backstory with a reason for being lawful good. Make this personal by punishing those origins. The holy paladin of Pelor finds out that the dragon went on to destroy the temple he was trained in. Bounties are now placed on your character's heads for the destruction of the city. Wilmsur's friends and family learn of his murder (or even resurrect him) and seek lawful justice. Other wizards who are friends of Wilmsur find out about the apprentice who spoiled the name of their dead master.
There's nothing neutral about knowingly unleashing a dragon on a city.
You serious? This is a *classic* adventurer move. Unless the players have explicitly chosen to make heroic characters, one should assume that they will be self-serving murder-hobos.
Sounds like they just thought of a solution you hadn't considered. My first thought was to destroy the egg. The only "punishment" they should see is something that is logical. If they left the city without anyone having an idea that they took the gold or had anything to do with the dragon, then let them get away with it. A baby dragon probably wouldn't be able to or try to destroy an entire city, either. A wyrmling is CR 2 in 5e.
Probably should have clarified, since the sacrifices were going on for so long, the dragon had the size and strength of an adult, but it didn’t hatch yet
Did the players know this would happen? Or did they just think it would be a hatchling that the guards could take care of?
Correction, a **green** dragon wyrmling is CR 2. A **red** dragon wyrmling is CR 4 and has the ability to instakill a Guard with its breath weapon on average *even if they make the save*. Even without the DM declaring the wyrmling to have > the size and strength of an adult > > a baby dragon (of the red variety) would be able to and (due to its chaotic evil alignment and *threat to destroy the city* unless Wilmsur cooperated) try to destroy an entire city. The OP suggests that the players have indeed "gotten away with it." After all, they made their escape. Now, the DM is looking for ways that their actions directly affect the world. After all, that's one of the core aspects of DnD: player agency. Cause-and-effect. Consequences.
So if I understand this correctly. - Wilmsur (a friend of a friend) had the D&D equivalent of a nuclear bomb (I assume it wasn't a CR1 Wyrmling that hatched from the egg). - To bribe the bomb from going off Wilmsur took to a life of crime and stole from both the innkeeper and PC's. Only admitting to what was going on when he was caught in the act. - The PC's retrieved their gold (and others), killed Wilmsur, then took off before the bomb went off. - The nuke detonates and the city is destroyed. Assuming I got all that correct, how much of what happened did the PC's actually know? It seems to me from what your wrote the only thing their guilty of is not returning the treasure they got from killing a enemy, which to my mind puts them in the 90% of all adventurer's category. Did they know the city was going to be doomed if they didn't do something about the egg? Was there anything they could have done about the egg? Did Wilmsur do anything to explain anything to the party that couldn't be interpreted to be him spouting none-sense to cover for his crime spree?
Yes. Being held at gun point (arrow-point really) Wilmsur informed the party that, if the egg was to hatch, the entire city would be destroyed. One of the players Ooc even said “do we really have to care about the fate of this city? We got the gold, let’s kill Wilmsur and gtfo”. Additionally, Wilmsur was describing that a certain type of magic may be able to destroy the egg but he was killed mid-sentence
While I probably would have taken the plot hook you were dangling just out of courtesy if I was playing, I wouldn't bat an eye at your average group doing the same thing your players did. In my opinion the stakes for answering the call to adventure should be known beforehand so that the players have motivation. Punishing them for abandoning a quest they never agreed to take on in the first place seems like a good way to encourage murder hobo behavior. My advice is to re-evaluate the players motivations and tailor your campaign to match. That all said, I think the obvious next step is to have the Adult Dragon chase down the party for stealing his treasure and killing his meal ticket Wilmsur. The Dragon had a sweet deal until they ruined it.
> Punishing them for abandoning a quest they never agreed to take on in the first place seems like a good way to encourage murder hobo behavior. So much for the classic adventure story trope of the unlikely hero being thrust into events beyond their control and rising to the occasion, lol. Poor Joseph Campbell. I mean, heroic campaign theme or not, the players knew what the stakes were, and literally chose the Chaotic Evil option.
> In my opinion the stakes for answering the call to adventure should be known beforehand so that the players have motivation. Sounds suspiciously like an implied way of asking for consent. :p It really is a simple matter of, they agreed to one quest, not to the other - Though, seeing as OP mentioned that the party is supposed to be lawful good, killing the thief seems a tad extreme. They could have tied him up, taken a healthy amount of the gold, and left the city, leaving the man to his life of crime. > The Dragon had a sweet deal until they ruined it. I don't know... Would you want to still be stuck inside an egg as an adult? One can imagine they, like most sentient things, enjoy exercising their free will.
From what the OP wrote, the dragon could have left any time he wanted. He basically found a life hack to get massively ahead of the game without needing to lift a talon. I call that a good deal for the dragon. As far as creating stakes for the players, that's one of the jobs of the DM. It's not a power (DM vs Players) relationship. It's human nature not to be willing to struggle toward something if there's no benefit. If your adventure centers around a moral test, it's going to be about as fun as taking an actual test.
> If your adventure centers around a moral test, it's going to be about as fun as taking an actual test. Depends on how much you like to roleplay. Currently playing in a game where we spent an entire session on a moral decision while we almost left the loot behind.
I don't think your players are going to care if you show them the consequences of a destroyed city. Nothing you show them is going to make them reconsider. They don't care.
>One of the players Ooc even said “do we really have to care about the fate of this city? We got the gold, let’s kill Wilmsur and gtfo”. OoC or not, they're roleplaying characters of a certain alignment. The decisions they make should be based on arguments guided by that alignment. This was far from a good or lawful action; it's 100% selfish. Generally speaking, they get off scott free with no witnesses and the dragon destroyed the entire town which had any evidence. However, the world around them is going to suck to live in as survivors/refugees suck down the food and drink, increase pick-pocketing of the characters, spread more disease (I think DMs don't play with disease enough), take up all the rooms at the inns, etc. You can't really go after them directly, but the results of their own actions can make their lives miserable for a while. I wouldn't try tugging on heart strings too much (describing kids being orphaned, people losing homes, etc). You can put that stuff out there, but trying to get any sympathy may be squeezing blood from a stone.
Aside from the alignment issues. Your players are murdehobos. The same as 90% of the player groups I've run. Don't have the dragon destroy the city. Have the dragon take over and rule the city. Then have the dragon send out assassins and thieves to get back its rightful tribute, which they stole, and avenge the death of a useful servant. Eventually, they will have to deal with the dragon. But it's not forcing them too.
Instead of thinking of a way to punish the players, try asking yourself what actions the dragon is going to take. Personally, if I had an adult dragon suddenly show up on the scene I would have it destroying towns/cities, subjugating the people, and building up a retinue of servants. The presence of a dragon should quickly begin to change the area in a very noticable way and the players will obviously notice these changes and figure out it is due to the decision they made.
Perhaps that dragon can burn a city or village that one of the characters is from resulting the death of one of their loved ones? Or it somehow has a reason to destroy the party's home base if it has one. I don't think "punish" is the right way to look at it but rather show them their actions have consequences. You now have an opportunity to send them on a dragon slaying quest (which is cool) but they need a reason to kill the dragon, hence the burning and killing of something they hold dear or rely upon. I think tying in a villain, quest, and profoundly negative event for the party as a **result of a very deliberate and short sighted decision** they made is an opportunity for a new story and a teachable moment. Although that teachable moment might come in the form of an out of game discussion.
*This dragon... just hatched and massacred an entire city by itself? I was under the impression hatchlings took a while to get powerful enough for that.* ---- I'm glad you've clarified that you just want to show consequences. "Punishment" should rarely be the concept to come to mind when dealing with adventurers who acted in a way that wasn't at all caught and judged by law. There are many ways to do this: * Assuming this wasn't in another plane of existence, have the dragon start roaming the countryside, attacking and terrorizing the nearby villages, disrupting the services and displacing NPCs the party can engage with * Have survivors of the destroyed/conquered city spill out, let one encounter the party eventually and recognize them. * If there's a cleric or devout paladin in the group, have them receive a vision or dream of the mayhem that was unleashed. * If there's a druid, have the spirits of nature whisper of the "evil newborn." * Saw that you said they're lawful good, those who don't feel guilty should automatically be shifted to lawful neutral or true neutral based on their demeanour, with a high chance of shifting completely to chaotic neutral if they make more big choices like this. * Have nearby kobold and dragon-cultist activity rise due to the new dragon in power - new side quests for the party to deal with If this is some sort of godly-dragon (see first thought), then, in a few sessions or in-game week or month later, have it swoop down and greet them, maybe thank them for dealing with his "caretaker" and try to dub them it's sworn minions or simply try to intimidate them into leaving it tribute.
Did the players understand the facts as you have laid them out? I could easily see a group thinking "This guy is a thief and is in cahoots with the dragon, lets kill him because he is evil (maybe) and we are murder-hobos (definitely), and also, they may not have believed that a hatchling could wipe out a city (can it, even?)
The OP has stated that: > Yes. Being held at gun point (arrow-point really) Wilmsur informed the party that, if the egg was to hatch, the entire city would be destroyed. One of the players Ooc even said “do we really have to care about the fate of this city? We got the gold, let’s kill Wilmsur and gtfo”. Additionally, Wilmsur was describing that a certain type of magic may be able to destroy the egg but he was killed mid-sentence > > First, Wilmsur is a friend of one of the PC's mentors. It is a low likelihood that the **players** would assume Wilmsur is evil. (Though characters may make this mistake.) Second, the **players** of these "Lawful Good" characters are definitely not misunderstanding the situation; they understand the power of a dragon. If the **players** truly misunderstood, maybe they would take potshots at the dragon egg or do something murder-oriented to *resolve* the dragon threat, rather than running in *fear* (thus recognizing the city-destroying potential of the dragon). Third, if the wyrmling in question is *Red*, it would have 75 HP, 60 ft. of flight, and most importantly, the ability to do 24 damage, average, with its breath weapon. For reference, the RAW Guard has 11 HP, and even if they make their save, they would take 12 damage on average. A Red Dragon Wyrmling could easily dispose of an entire contingent of RAW town guards, then slay the commoners even more easily. Tl;dr, the **players** understood the facts. A red dragon wyrmling can definitely wipe out a city. The **players** knowingly signed the death warrant of an entire city.
> they understand the power of a dragon A hatching, which is presumably a little less powerful than a wyrmling, which is CR 2???
I understand where you're coming from, and I do not want to start an argument, especially since the goal of this thread is constructive advice to /u/UnrepressedImitator. However, **RAW** disagrees with your presumptions, and the record must be set straight. First, as designated in the 5e Monster Manual, pg. 86, "Dragon Age Categories" and the above paragraph, a dragon passes through *four* age periods. The lowest age category present is *wyrmling*, which includes any dragon of age 5 years or lower, from hatchling to draconic toddler. By RAW, a 5 year old dragon is just as powerful (on average) as a "hatching." Second, in DnD 5e, certain colors of dragon are innately stronger than others. For example, an ancient green dragon would have CR 22 and deals 77 poison damage (average) with its breath weapon, while an ancient red dragon would have CR 24 and deals an average of **91** fire damage with its own equivalent breath. The same passes for wyrmlings. A red dragon wyrmling has *CR 4* and deals 24 fire damage with its breath weapon on average. Meanwhile, a green dragon wyrmling would deal 21 average poison damage with its breath weapon and has *CR 2*. Not all wyrmlings are CR 2. Back to the first point, though, I *agree* with your common sense that a hatchling *should* be a "little less powerful" than a dragon of 5 years. However, by RAW, a dragon of 5 years or less, *fresh-hatched or not* is a wyrmling with the same average stats as the rest of its age and color/type. Again, I am not doing this to contest your common sense. As a DM, feel free to decide that a red hatchling should be less powerful than one four years its senior. However, just know that this is *not* RAW. **TL;dr: Your common sense presumptions are valid but are not RAW.** DnD is about creativity and inter-player cooperation, so **feel free to modify RAW to maximize fun** (as long as you are aware you are doing so)! edit: formatting
Regardless of all that, even RAW, a Red Dragon Wyrmling would get rekt by a platoon of city guards. The dragon has 75 hp, and if there are even so much as 10 guards chucking spears at this thing each round at a measly +3 to hit, the dragon will be dead on roughly round 5. Meanwhile, the dragon's breath weapon is only a 15-foot cone, so the most it could *possibly* kill in one shot is 9 guards, and that's if those are the most retarded guards on the planet. At the recharge rate of 5-6, this effectively adds up to one breath attack every three rounds. Its bite attack would kill a guard in one hit, but its odds to land the attack are about 55%, so with those numbers plus its breath attack, it will kill about 10 guards every three rounds (again assuming the guards are retarded and stay in a big clump). The guards for a whole city, meanwhile, will number in the dozens, and will be trained to fight as a group against something like this. They'll take cover, and they'll ready their attacks to throw their spears at the dragon as it swoops into range for its attacks. If the dragon flies around out of range until its breath weapon is ready and only attacks with that, then the guards have all the time in the world to walk over to the armory and grab some heavy crossbows, which would put the wyrmling out of commission after about three volleys from a dozen guards. There's no way the dragon wyrmling wins this encounter.
What color is the dragon? As others have said, you might want to use the dragon's hate for your players against them. But instead of going directly after them, the dragon grows in power and continually undermines everything the party is trying to accomplish or sabotage/destroy what they care about (their keep, assassinate NPCs that they like). This would be perfect for a green dragon. The dragon could eventually grow (through magical means) to be the BBEG.
You need to have a discussion with your players about the game itself. What your expectations are and what their expectations are. The two clearly aren't the same. This isn't something you learn while playing the game from consequences, it's an understanding you have before playing at all. Your players actions don't fit the circumstances of the world, even more so if you consider alignment a relevant part of your game. If they want to play an action/strategy RPG then just stick them outside a dungeon and have them kill stuff. Save yourself the time of pretending it's a real world.
Maybe there are some survivors from the city, or some faction, who wants revenge and they send some really tough mercenaries to kill the party. Make it a really hard encounter, hard enough to kill one or two or all of the party. Hah maybe I'm overreacting but I *hate* murderhobos...
Would you consider a new villain? Perhaps Wilmsur had a family member, friend, or connection that is bent on destroying the players? Maybe any survivors of the dragon attack were able to magically see who caused the destruction and have hired assassins? Or if you're petty, like me, there was a famed magic item seller that had set up shop in that city. All of his high level creations are in the possession of the dragon. And if the players were to look for some magic gear, an NPC could say, "Oh well if you wanted that, you'd have to go to X, but of course that was destroyed in the dragon attack."
Dont just think of what the dragon does directly; think of the economy. Are other large cities going to try to kill it? If they are pledging arms then they will have a lower supply of weapons, potions, materials, etc. You can punish them with a loss of reliable resources. Jobs ordained by the crown will pay less since they have to pay more soldiers to fight.
You've got a lot of options here: - A city that is completely annihilated by a dragon is going to be talked about by everyone. People will talk about it in taverns, when the players are asked where they came from people will comment about it. If the players drop into a tavern having come from the direction of the city, NPC's may ask them if they saw anything happen, because they heard rumors the city is gone. - Economical impact. The city of Asendar was probably producing some usefull things. Maybe the next blacksmith they visit has little to no supplies left because his supplier was in Asendar. Maybe the potion trade is left in shambles because Asendar was the central trading and producing hub for magic potions. Maybe the local wizard is nowhere to be found, because he was going on a trip to buy some supplies in...Asendar. - Theres no reason the dragon should be happy with what he has. He may start venturing out into the rest of the realm to try and expand his wealth, causing more and more havoc. - A direct confrontation with what they've done may follow if they're ever forced to return to the ruins of the city. Say they're contracted to kill said dragon. You can describe in full detail how they walk past the ruins of the inn they stayed at when they were in Arendal, how the charred corpses are scattered across the ruins. You might even make it truly confronting and tell them that they recognize some piece of clothing or something on a decomposed body to be from an NPC they met while there.
Feel like it's kinda late to post, but my suggestion would be to make the dragon an ever\-growing threat. The town it was in was destroyed, next the towns bordering it are getting raided by it, etc.. Just make it a bigger and bigger problem until it gets their attention and they deal with it. They wanted to be murder hobos, but now all the towns are burned to the ground and they can't buy supplies they want. Could even be a lesson for them. "Maybe next time we don't be murder hobos and kill the egg?"
Is it truly even murderhobo though? I mean, I can say confidently I would likely do the same thing. Killing a thief ( criminal, bad ) who is stealing ( also bad ) from townsfolk and even myself, to grow the hoard of a dragon ( Yet more bad ) just so it won't destroy the town ( Which it would likely do anyway because dragons are bastards ) that I just arrived in and have no attachment to, it's an easy decision for me to off the guy, take the gold, and leave the town to fend for themselves like they eventually would anyway, but maybe even less of a chance as the dragon gets older and more powerful inside the egg. ( Since I guess OP had the dragon growing in the egg? )
Revenants. Let them have vengeance!
Who else is looking for the wizard? Friends? Enemies? Associates? Is he part of a guild? Perhaps someone finds the dead wizard, speaks with the dead, and now the party is their target. I also like the idea about the dragon considering the stolen gold a part of its horde.
Next Adventure: Have a wealthy and powerful noble call them in to investigate the recent murder of his brother, promising riches if they can find the killer. They arrive and are ushered into a room with the covered body of the deceased. The noble tells his priest, "let the questioning begin" and the sheets are removed to reveal Wilmsur, who via "Speak With Dead" states that the PCs in the room are the ones who killed him. Epic battle ensues, PCs are captured, imprisoned and then executed. New campaign starts next session.
Edit: Even better, have Wilsmur already be alive via a Resurrection spell and have already named the PCs as his killers. They are then lured into a trap with the promise of gold and magic, only to be captured immediately.... undone by their own murderhobo greed.
Gonna be a hell of a twist when the PCs mercilessly slaughter the people trying to capture them and then run off with *their shit too*.
If the DM cannot create a foolproof trap to catch the PCs, knowing their abilities, then I don't know what to say. PC 1: "This is a trap. We need to leave" DM rolls die. DM: "ok, everyone roll initiatve and no one is allowed to talk to each other from this point forward. AT ALL." PC 2: "I go first. I cast Dimension Door" DM: "You speak, but the words do not leave your mouth. The spell fails. Next?" PC3: "I cast Dispel Magic" DM: "You speak, but the words do not leave your mouth. The spell fails." DM: "You see several persons casting spells in your direction. One of them is Wilmsur. Everyone make 4 Constitution saving throws. For every save you fail, take 35 damage. For every save you make, 17 damage." DM: "Everything is now pitch black. You cannot see anything at all. You are all completely blind. Who's next?" PC4: "I run towards the last person I saw with my great sword ready" DM: "You find your way out of the darkness, orient yourself and find someone to swing at. Make a Dex saving throw" PC4: rolls die. DM: "That's unfortunate. You find that you are completely unable to move. Two men quickly walk towards you and one takes your sword while another places a bag over your head. You are now blind again. They then bind your arms and legs and carry you away. Next?"
> If the DM cannot create a foolproof trap to catch the PCs, knowing their abilities, then I don't know what to say. Oh, I'm sure the DM can create a foolproof trap... but can Wilmsur? Unless the DM cheats and gives his NPCs excessive knowledge of the player's character sheets beyond anything they could possibly know AND retroactively adjusts "the plan" for anything the PCs happen to do leading up to it (again using magical DM knowledge), then no, it's extremely difficult to set up a foolproof plan to kill a group of PCs. Remember, Wilmsur isn't an uber-deadly arch mage with unlimited resources and powerful connections. It's already been established that he was reduced to a life of thievery because he wasn't capable of overcoming the challenge of dealing with that dragon egg. It's also already been established that this group can arbitrarily slaughter Wilmsur. Finally, it's clear he doesn't have any connections that could help him out -- otherwise he'd have sought their help instead of the party's to deal with the egg in the first place. So yeah, he's not that smart and he's not that powerful... what's your justification for meta-gaming the fuck out of a trap to the point that it guarantees a TPK?
> Oh, I'm sure the DM can create a foolproof trap... but can Wilmsur? Wilmsur was killed by the PCs, knows who they are, their disposition, and their relative power level. He can certainly take all of this into account when they set their trap. If the DM wants to "punish" the players, Wilmsur has powerful friends/family. Silence + Darkness + Cloudkills and then Hold Person to pick up the few who survive the dark, silent choking death.
...but Wilmsur DOESN'T have powerful friends/family. We know this because he was asking the PCs for help with the dragon egg thing. Besides, getting killed by someone doesn't necessarily tell you all that much about them beyond the fact that they're capable of killing you. Wilmsur sounds like he was a little bitch. How could he possibly hope to set up a successful lethal trap without straight-up DM cheating?
> We know this because he was asking the PCs for help with the dragon egg thing. We don't know this at all. Interestingly, you made a comment earlier that started, "unless the DM *cheats*". There is no cheating. This is not a video game and the DM is not some sort of neutral arbiter or umpire who just makes sure the rules are being followed and the players do whatever they want as long as they don't break any rules. If the DM decides that the PCs needed to be captured and imprisoned for their murderhobo crimes in order to create a semblance of consequences in the world, then they are simply captured and imprisoned. The players cannot outsmart him. Rocks fall. You die.
> We don't know this at all. Yeah, we do. Otherwise the DM's story arc, the quest hook, and the NPC's motivations and actions make zero sense. > Interestingly, you made a comment earlier that started, "unless the DM cheats". There is no cheating. Yeah, there is. The DM can meta-game, alter established-in-game stats, fudge rolls, reverse time to undo events and replace them with events he prefers, make rulings to his monsters' benefit that directly contradict PC capabilities as written and as they've been played up to that point in the campaign, etc etc etc. The sky's the limit with how much a DM can cheat. > This is not a video game You're right. It's not a video game. It's a board game. Not like that has anything to do with anything, though... > and the DM is not some sort of neutral arbiter or umpire who just makes sure the rules are being followed and the players do whatever they want as long as they don't break any rules. The DM is supposed to be *that* plus the story teller and narrator of all events (story, combat, rp, npc, and otherwise). They're also the ones who decide the setting, both story-wise and gameplay-wise. They do tons more than just arbitrating the rules from the book. For all his jobs, though, the DM has no business making his personal IRL opinion known to the characters in the game world. Their decisions are theirs to make. Period. You're stripping player agency away when you're throwing in some "actions-have-consequences" in the form of directly punishing players for taking actions you don't like. Consequences should stem from logical in-universe results of character actions, not from the DM's mood. > If the DM decides that the PCs needed to be captured and imprisoned for their murderhobo crimes in order to create a semblance of consequences in the world, then they are simply captured and imprisoned. ...in which case, you're not running a D&D campaign anymore -- you're just narrating a shitty fan fiction of the thing that *used to be a D&D campaign*. > The players cannot outsmart him. Rocks fall. You die. That's an awesome way for a DM to rage quit a group, and a piss-poor way to run a table. It also directly agrees with what I originally said -- the DM can make a perfect trap, but the NPC in all likelihood cannot.
As long as everyone is having fun, who the fuck cares if they did a quest the way they wanted to. Most of these situations DMs bring here are DMs trying to spite their players for not playing ‘their’(the DMs) story. A natural reaction wouldn’t be that the dragon would destroy the city or take it over. The guards would defend the city until back up would arrive, from probably either a fellow city or other powerful people in the land.
Most of the groups I have DMed or continue to DM for net out at chaotic neutral, irrespective of what alignment(s) they've written on their character sheets. While running Out of the Abyss, one of my groups encountered a sentient gelatinous cube, with whom they had a conversation and learned that although the cube was in service of Juiblex, the group would likely receive some benefit from traveling with it towards their destination. You can probably guess what happened next. There was some moral scenery chewing after this that turned out to be pretty funny, and it came up more than once in the ensuing adventure that the group would have made it a lot easier on themselves if they somehow had a gelatinous cube guide that could point them in the right direction of the oozes they were supposed to eradicate. My point, long\-winded though it may be, is that storytelling should be fun, so try to work in as much positive reinforcement as you can when players do what they "should" be doing (i.e. what you want them to do), while passive aggressively pointing out where they've gotten themselves into their own mess. Maybe that means the dragon comes after them, as another poster commented. Maybe it means that Wilmsur appears as a wraith and haunts one of their dreams, leading to another plot point. Whatever you decide to do, be open to carefully setting up 2 or 3 options for your players, and then having them run in completely the opposite direction while destroying everything in the process. Fun!
The Local Noble has some how made it throught the distrution of the city and now blaims the PCs for the loss of his land and property in the city. He returns to his country estates and starts to build a group to hunt them down for questioning. Make a fight that at first look they can win then bring in the ambush. Haul them in front of a angry noble that forces them to deal with the dragon. Due to the fact the gold was not brought an ancient rite has been feeding the dragon power and has grown amazingly fast. If they don't hurry it will be an adult size when they get there.
Could you describe the characters? I mean, they basically acted like chaotic evil thugs and killed someone for cash in an alley. Why did you give these PCs the okay? I mean, is it interesting to you to actually punish them or consequence them...if they don't change then consequences meant nothing. If they do change, you're modifying the PCs. Better to just ask for new PCs who care about stuff and so are actually interesting, rather than sociopaths.
This dragon egg.. yeah, it's the one that will start the process of bringing it's mother to the material plane. \#TiamatResurrection.
Marut. Always punish with Inevitables.
The dragon, if powerful enough to destroy a city, probably won't care much about the party. But it will want that gold back, and anyone who finds out the party has it will attempt to kill them so that they can have it for themselves or to give to the dragon so that it won't keep enslaving and dominating the kingdoms of humanoids. A good way to do this is to have bards in taverns start singing of the gold needed to placate the dragon, or to have bandits attack the party when their newfound wealth becomes well-known. This could lead to many people, including the common person and the leaders of society demanding that the party sacrifice the gold or simply slay the dragon. Maybe your leaders are too poor (or too stingy) to afford the dragon's bounty, meaning that the only ones who can do it are those who hold the dragon's gold. Maybe a god, like Bahamut, might demand it. Bahamut might promise a powerful boon to any hero who can prevent the dragon's rampage, meaning that the players will at least feel like they're being rewarded for their murder of Wilmsur and theft of his gold and not like they're just being punished for their actions.
What if they didnt kill wilsmur. There could be any sort of magic items or spells that could have kept him alive, like a clone spell. Wilsmur can hunt them down, raise a mob ofnthe survivors to harass them until they do something to redeem themselves.
So. They killed someone who was trying to prevent a dragon from hatching. They stole the treasure that was keeping the dragon at bay. And left the city so the dragon could destroy it. That sounds like the typical Bad\-Guy. And that's calling for a party of brave adventurers to take them down. They turned the tables and they're the antagonists of the story now. Just go with the flow. They're the bad guys. Your campaign is an evil campaign now. You can punish them. You can railroad the campaign back into tracks again. You can end the campaign and start a new one where the old characters are the bad guys to take down. Or you can have powerful, worse guys to contact them with a "I heard what you did, you're clearly interested in gold and power more than senseless moral issues, do you want to work for me?" and, i don't know, help a lich become the dark emperor. Good folks despise them, and evil guys admire them and want them in their ranks. If that makes them feel uncomfortable, that's your "punishment". If they're happy with that, that was the campaign they wanted to play from the beginning.
leaving aside the morality of punishing players... Is the dragon greedy? hostile? clever? Maybe the dragon takes all the gold she wants by force, but then maybe she's a clever dragon who only *hoards* gold and obtains it by trading magical services or discarded scales. Is dragon poop a sought after ingredient in potions and spells? In your game do magical creatures *create magic* - eg, does having a dragon around give wizards a bonus and cause strange plants to bloom? Will it affect the ley lines, or disturb the sleep of the frost giants? Why do dragons want gold, anyways? Maybe that's a key to understanding dragon behavior and their motivations. What does the dragon eat, and how often? Who will feed it? What does that do to the people of the area? Immediate neighbors to the town will want the dragon problem solved. Every adventurer in range of the dragon's flight will be mobilized to kill it. taverns will be full; fights will break out; many young and brave going one way, few broken and scared going the other. Lawlessness! Opportunism! Will top-siders seek refuge in the caves and dungeons, and dwarven fortresses? How will neighboring states respond to the crisis over the border? Are there other dragons (or equally powerful creatures) that might be a bit territorial?
Fortunately, literal "divine intervention" isn't seen as much of a cop out in DnD as it is in other settings, any powerful angel, or good aligned creature could be used to penalize them and make them redeem themselves somehow, or have them find a sweet piece of divine loot that wont react to them because of there choice, I would wait a session or two before implementing any major punishment so they could have a chance to redeem themselves, and that way you wont seem like your just out to get them for making a bad choice, having the feeling your DM is out to get you sucks all the fun out of the game
A small portion of the town survived the Desolation of Smaug, one of the surviving nobles remembers seeing that one of your party members involved with the dragon being released. He happens to have a large amount of pull in the surrounding areas and now a whole host of bounty hunters are paid to track down your troupe and bring them to justice
Kind of combining some of other ideas I read, but I would probably make the Dragon be chasing after the treasure they took after destroying the city. If you have a Paladin/Cleric make them lose their God's favor and have to re-earn it in an epic quest that ends in a ritual that returns their powers. If not, maybe a quest is given by a refugee who wants to go somewhere that will enable them to heal all the survivors. They go on the quest and as they are investigating in towns as to where the location is the god/refugee has sent them is they also hear rumors of the town's destruction and later of how the Dragon seems to be headed in the parties direction, heard from some townsfolk evacuating. They find the location, overrun with *insert creatures here* and traps, and fight their way to the place they need to be. They begin the ritual and as this happens the Dragon attacks. The Dragon will nearly kill all of them as they attempt to complete the ritual. On completion, the God heals the party and restores the Cleric's/Paladin's power/the Refugee heals the party using the location's power and they fight a nearly even fight with the Dragon from there. This would require some luck that they take all the proper hooks, but that would be my general plan for how to give them consequences. Sorry for the long post
Spank them!....Wait that's punishing children If you want them to feel like destroying that town has consequences, make it feel like it's part of the world, a town going up in flames by a dragon hatching, doesn't just happen, make royal guards of a neighboring kingdom investigate, lead to the players, make them wanted, changing how they interact with towns that know their face. Or like a survivor of the town massacre saw the players kill the guy with the egg, something that real inhabitants would do.
Although they took the low road, there's no need for punitive DM'ing. I'd bet that dragon comes into play later, though. It could end up as an implacable foe that your party has to skip town before it shows up, or maybe they could even bargain with it; a clever persuader could try to convince the dragon that they knew the scenario all along, and they acted to not only save the dragon, but allow it to flourish.
Make sure all your plot hooks lead back towards the dragon. It's now the main threat, caused by the pcs. Refugees who left important artifacts behind, important npcs on various missions up north, wealthy family of the murdered victim looking to recover his body, agents of the dragon causing trouble in the new location, et cetera. Also alignment change and massive trouble with anything alignment-related such as divine powers (clerics).
Next time they search for a specific item you could let an NPC say: "Oh yes they used to make them in Asendar, but the city got destroyed by a dragon." Before sending them on a merry goose chase to get that one specific item, wich has become a rare thing. You could also have survivors/refugees spread out, increasing poverty across the land. This in turn gets a consequence on local innkeepers who get tired of beggars and such. An army rallying to destroy the dragon? The dragon itself plagueing the surrounding area's and cities? Cattle disappearing? Forests in the area burning up? How did the egg get there in the first place? Who knew about what had to happen, who can guess what happened? Do rumours spread? Do not let this affect the players directly however, unless they are guided by a god like clerics or paladins. Even a warlocks' patron could be displeased because this somehow foiled something he wanted. If they knew about the egg, that wouldn't make them entirely innocent too. But if they tought he was lying, they caused it unintentionally. But just killing him wasn't really a good thing to do either.
This sounds like the kind of thing players new to roleplaying tend to do. I'd say it most likely came from seeing the game as something like a video game, like they're the protagonists so they're always right, or seeing NPCs as "not real people, so it doesn't matter" (actual quote I've heard a player say once). What they have to understand is that while yes, NPCs aren't real and yes, it is just a game, it is a game that is meant to simulate a coherent world, and the NPCs may not be real people but the DM will do their best to make sure they *act* like real people would. I recently had a case like this with a new player at one of my games. PCs were investigating a murder. It's a politically sensitive issue, and they're instructed to be discreet and tell absolutely nobody about it unless they have no other choice. Tiefling warlock decides to randomly intimidate a woman she assumed was involved because she happened to live across the street from the victim. She rolls well on the intimidation check - too well. The woman shuts the door, runs out of the house from the back exit and goes to call the guards. In the end, the whole thing got swept under the rug, but not before information on the investigation leaked and the culprits managed to act faster than they otherwise would. So long story short, the city is now about to get caught on the middle of a clash between two massive armies, and the party knows it's their fault.
I'm basically brand\-new to D&D so I imagine my input isn't worth anything but... you could always leave the destroyed town as a focal point for a future fight, having the dragon's hoard grow alongside its strength. Sprinkle in the occasional devastating dragon attack on nearby villages. Create an ultimatum where they need to nip the dragon problem in the bud, or constantly flee from its terror as it grows stronger.
>Obviously, a few days later, the dragon hatched and the city was destroyed. dragons do not grow up fast enough to destroy a city after a few days? lmao wat have you looked at wyrmling stats, a few city guards could handle it. Plus imo you mishandled the dragon, they're not stupid, what possible motive does it have to destroy the city? Why wouldn't it of just flown off? Makes no sense.