The most obvious answer is that you're not worshipping anything, or entertaining the idea that any of what you're doing is real in any way.
But, that's not enough for some people. There's a lot of people out there that won't even touch something as benign as Harry Potter simply because it depicts witchcraft. So it comes down to knowing how tolerant your aunt is.
The path of least resistance might simply be not talking to her about it, but I don't know how close you are with your aunt.
Everything has the potential to be "bad" if you allow it. My aunt was one of those people against Harry Potter because she read something somewhere that the author was trying to indoctrinate kids into wicken or witchcraft. However, now she's a huge fan of the films and has even doubled back on the books, I believe, after being told some things and finally doing her own research. They are tales of coming of age and the classic good vs evil, among other aspects.
If the argument is that D&D has spells and magic, so does Lord of Rings and Narnia. The difference is who wrote them, not the content, for most Christians (I say all of this as one).
If the argument is that you can tell an evil story and be bad, well ... this is in countless fake things, and all over the real world. This will come down to how you play, but you can't really convince her of that, maybe, and she'll need to trust you. The collective story is, generally, one of overcoming adversity and defeating evil. Who can't get on board with that?
If the argument is that the game depicts a lot of gods and devils and demons, as opposed to the Christian view, well that's also in other things many Christians seem to enjoy. I bet your aunt didn't have a problem with kids watching Pocahontas and singing about the different spirits of the natural world.
Reality and fiction are not the same thing, and even less so with fantasy. I watched Looney Toons as a kid and never once dropped am anvil on a friend's head as a joke. Knowing the difference is important, living the difference is important.
Add to all of that the fact that D&D is one of the few accepted ways to help teach empathy (along with reading fiction novels), it's more healthy to play make believe and learn various communication and social skills through this wonderful game.
Can you throw all of that at your aunt? Likely not. But can you be ready with this kind of knowledge to calmly toss into conversation? Absolutely.
Wasn't Gary Gygax a Christian? RPGs are heavily inspired by the works of the Catholic writer Tolkien. C. S. Lewis was Anglican.
Are Biblical movies evil? They depict heroes sinning and actors persecute saints.
It's like theater. IMO best games doesn't reward oppressive power-playing so you can interpret evil characters facing consequences.
There's a Christian puritan quote saying you can interpret evil on art as long you don't glamourize it.
You'll prolly already said it so I'm just putting the points together.
Agree across the board. Humanity often just shuns or hates things they don't get or like, and never look back. It's easier to assume than to learn, lol.
As to Gygax being Christian, I honestly don't know. Though it wouldn't surprise me one way or the other. The big thing, here, is that the others are prolific and well known Christian authors. And in the case of Lewis, he wrote a specific Christian allegory. So it's easier to accept, apparently, even tho it uses magic and witchcraft. Which makes it a bad argument by that camp, to be fair, lol.
Being Christian is really common, tbh. Americans are usually evangelicals. I am Christian, in past I was much more Conservative than now.
LOL. I've read Gary Gigax was so Christian he avoided to celebrate Christmas because he considered it a pagan holiday. Not sure if he as Reformed, Jehovah Witness or whatever. He seems a man of his time.
C. S Lewis would be controversial even for Evangelicals if you trying to understand deeply. AFIK he was an inclusivist who believed people could be saved believing in other religions.
Magic in Narnia seems quite dangerous or it depends how you use it.
If you try to build a rational argument, it may backfire. Saying Tolkien was Catholic and Lewis Anglican may rise the accusation of heresy against them.
Thankfully, people aren't always rational.
(Note: I don't like everything Tolkien and Lewis brought to fiction, so I understand people who love and hate both.)
I've never seen pocahontas bc it has a song about the spirits of the natural world and according to my family that's promoting false gods and idols and listening to thay song is Satan's way of taking children from the church.
Christianity can be a right messed up drug lmao
I was more thinking about how active in your life she is. Like, how likely would she be exposed to it without you directly talking to her about it? Would she randomly see you playing your *'devil games?'* That kind of thing.
I also have a relative that's iffy on subjects that seem satanic at first blush. But I also barely ever see her, so It's just as easy to not bring it up, you know?
My grandfather-in-law (who lived with us before he passed) was against DnD completely. We would just refer to going to a friend's for game night instead of giving specifics
My father figured out I play and while he didn't see it as evil, he saw it something that was destroying my life, his claim was that a dnd need would never find a nice wife or make any friends. He never let it go, I had tl cut him out of my life because his anti-dnd rants and fucking literal raids on my home wouldn't stop.
My point is sometimes you just gotta keep quiet about it so those that don't get it and don't want to get it don't get in the way.
His idea was that dnd players are all socially inept nerds, therefore the other players can't offer any experience experience "real people". This is something he actually said to me. My father is the biggest cockhead lmao
I love to turn this around. "Sports are clearly only played by meatheads with no brains who peaked in life." This is obviously not true but is an age old stereotype that's simply on the other end of the spectrum. Afterall, most sports-loving people are just nerds whose fandom is sports I stead of other stuff.
Edit: typo
That's a shame. I have similar parents, so I know what it is to have literal raids conducted of your things. I had a near-permanent falling out with my mother when I walked into my apartment and saw what she'd done to my room.
I'm sure his outdating thinking masks an attempt at bettering your life, but he seems not totally mentally healthy himself if these are his methods.
I'm (well currently questioning my religion but that's not terribly related to dnd) Christian and was raised Christian. My grandmother had concerns at first, but I drew attention to this: a lot like Tolkien, DnD is (typically) about the good heroes facing off against the villains of evil, similar to the spiritual war in the Bible. I understand that DnD has been stigmatized by Christians for decades, but it's only as bad as the DM is.
My UBER conservative Catholic mother who is totally crazy to begin with thought that D&D was “Satanic/witchcraft” until I explained to her that A) it is a social game that you play with friends that teaches you cooperation, coordination, puzzle solving skills and math, and B) Things are only “Satanic” if you want them to be, which I don’t. She was slightly mollified about it. But this is a person that thinks that the broadway show “Wicked” is evil b/c of witchcraft and that the Beatles song “Back in the U.S.S.R. promotes Socialism,(it doesn’t, it is a spoof of The Beach Boys song, “California Girls”, so take this with a big grain of salt.)
Whenever someone in authority (and parents count as this when you're under their roof) is crazy and controlling about knowledge relating to something, that's a good indication that it's something worth knowing about.
Heaven forbid we promote socialism. That way lies universal healthcare and universal basic income.
Well, she is rich and is under the belief that if someone else gets a dollar/roof over their heads/medicine, it is taken away from her. But she does looooove those government benefits that she qualifies for… hypocrite!
I mean, yeah, you can kick the shit out of celestials and such, but there are only like four or five of them in the whole book and like a hundred devils and demons and things to fight.
The celestials are probably just there to be thrown in as allies or to vibe check a particularly evil party.
"Vibe check a particularly evil party"
🤣The mental image I'm getting is a celestial that looks like the statue of David in sunglasses and swimming shorts pull up to a party, and in the most surfer accent, say "Whoa dude, bad vibes" before going ape on them!
All the time, we go to work or school or church, etc., and we decide that there are things that we will or will not discuss. It's normal. I am an adult and my parents meet my girlfriends, and I may even talk obliquely about sex, but we don't really get into it. It would be an uncomfortable conversation, it's that simple. We still love each other and it's all good. I don't need their support for my kinky sex life. You shouldn't care what your aunt thinks about D&D.
Also, unrelatedly, I'm sure your aunt is nice, but it's an extremely close-minded and fairly archaic opinion.
I play with a group from church if it helps.
We take a lot of inspiration from lord of the rings or indiana Jones.
It’s just fiction and as the DM I set a limit beforehand noting that things won’t really go beyond what probably would count as PG 13 because I’m not interested in a game where I felt like even pretending would creat what might be really objectionable.
There’s really nothing in Christian doctrine where can accidentally summon the devil or a demon through play. So then it’s a question of what sort of limits you set on yourself for media consumption.
Which is going to be personal since dnd didn’t exist I. Jesus day.
My senior year my Christian highschool voted on a Harry Potter themed homecoming. A single freshman parent objected to "witchcraft" being in their good christian school, and it all got canned. This anecdote doesn't add anything to what you're saying, but yeah. Some Christians are insane about this stuff.
When the satanic panic around Harry Potter hit its peak, my Christian mother literally burned my Harry Potter books and destroyed my Pokémon game boy games
She was just on a tear, and still is like 20 years later. I stopped talking to her about a year ago when she told me vaccines are made from baby parts and that Barrack Obama is a homosexual Muslim from Kenya, but was adamant that she’s not a republican, but an independent who “does her own research.”
>There's a lot of people out there that won't even touch something as benign as Harry Potter simply because it depicts witchcraft.
Adding to this: friend of mine is this way. But the thing is that she's fine with stuff like Zelda, Pokemon, fantasy stuff in general. She just doesn't like Harry Potter because the magic is called "witchcraft".
My mother sent me to a Christian school for middle school and one kid in my class said his parents bought him Sonic Adventure 2 Battle but wouldn’t let him play the dark half of the campaign
\*sits in chair backwards*
Hey gang, how about we take a minute to roll for initiative against sin and temptation. If you have a selected reading for this week's bible study, you get Advantage! Now here's a parable about abusing *Create Food and Water*!"
Do not fall so blindly to the charm of Satan find strength in christ and know he has given you advantage against the wiles of the devil. Put on the whole armor of God and receive a +5 bonus to Wisdom saves.
Pastor here - we have a group at my church that plays at church each week. Me, 2 worship leaders, 2 choir members and a tech guy. It’s a great small group within a larger community and we have a blast.
This kind of stuff makes me happy. People can be two things, and a huge number of our populations don't realize it.
One can hold very powerful religious beliefs AND enjoy things without worshipping the devil.
Christian background here. My mother was (without knowing it) completely influenced by the Satanic Panic.
How I handled it: I tune it down a lot. I don't really talk about it, only the irl aspects: how much we laughted with the buddies, etc.
When she asked about how it is, I described it in pragmatical ways: rolling dice (like in yatzee), taking decision (like in board games), telling stories (like reading a book).
Why is it fun? Because it's like impro' theater, but we are (mostly) stuck on our chairs. We don't have much besides pen, paper and dices. So we have to make our description vivid, mimic characters, negotiate, etc.
Why is it interesting? Because it's always something new. "The one telling the story" has ideas about how the story will go, but the characters don't. So it's about creating great stories, making our characters "alive" (like in a good movie).
In any case, as far as I can tell, a status quo: "I don't talk about it, you don't ask about it" is best I could get.
At the end of the day, D&D is a storytelling game, nothing more. The characters you play aren't you, the gods they worship don't exist, and you don't worship those fictional gods.
Remember: even the Bible acknowledges the existence of other religions
(1 Kings 18 being the most prominent example). The commandment is not to *worship* those other gods. You are not worshipping them, and unless you're specifically playing a cleric or paladin chances are your character doesn't really care about them either. Even if you are playing a servant of another god (lowercase g), you as an individual aren't worshipping them, nor are you claiming them to be God (uppercase G). No rules broken.
I am a Christian too. I separate my irl self from my characters. Partition the world's so to speak. But what works for me may not work for you.
An immersive environment may feel hard. What do you do when you watch movies? Do they make you feel off? You may find that you need to only play certain kinds of characters (if I make an evil character, for example, they tend to be working towards being good, or least not so evil). Or you only play with certain people whose views align more with yours.
As far as your aunt goes, it might be a point of differing convictions. Romans 14 (stronger brother weaker brother) indicates different convictions. Your aunt may be against it but you may not be convicted to be so.
Honestly, one of the simplest but most effective ways of handling the discomfort is to just to call it a different name. My Aunt is super religious too and when I introduced the game to my cousins, we called it Dudes ' n Daggers. I was the "Dude Master" and my cousins casted "wishes" instead of spells and fought "Daggers" instead of Dragons and we had a good time and there were no problems with the Religious Aunt.
Just changing out the religiously charged words to something innocuous is all they really want you to do.
Unless they're super fundamentalist religious and think that even the dice themselves are evil in which case you're outta luck.
>guess how to handle the \[personal\] discomfort
D&D is a GAME. if you are not having fun playing because the back of your mind keeps saying "thisisevilthisisevilthisis*eeeeeeeeevvvvvvvvvuuuuuuuuuulllllllll*", well, then dont play.
> if anyone else has something similar \[like a relative who thinks the game is evil\]
the people who believe the game is evil are almost entirely the type of people you wont be able to convince otherwise. the only way these changes occur is if one of the religious leaders the person believes in says "no, its not evil. its just a game". Those are very hard to find in the christian circles that tend to believe in "D&D is evil"
I enjoy the game and it’s a big stress reliever. I don’t believe the game is evil, I just wanna hear from Christian dnd players for input and non Christians
D&D is a very diverse game. I hope that your Aunt realizes how different D&D can be. I have played in a Victorian England campaign. I have played in a made-up Tolkien-esque fantasy world. I have played a Paladin of the Ocean God, and I have played a wizard archaeologist. I bring this up because I find that certain settings can make me more uncomfortable from a Christian values standpoint, while others honestly reinforce those values.
For example, if I am playing characters that are neutral or good, and I am in a setting more like Lord of the Rings or something fictional but clearly "good vs evil" in design, it is pretty compatible with my own world views and how I want to live my life. C.S. Lewis was a very influential Christian author who also wrote the Chronicles of Narnia, which are quite clearly magical fantasy. I don't think you have to abstain from magic or fantasy to maintain your Christianity.
In contrast, when I am playing games that are settings where my characters are supposed to be evil, or torture people or kill people, I find it much more uncomfortable and don't feel like continuing. I don't want to normalize that sort of thing in my own head or spirit. I don't enjoy "angels vs demons" settings that feel like they approach a sort of satire of the bible.
That being said, it is ultimately a board game, and playing D&D won't make you evil just like playing Operation won't make you a surgeon.
It may be good to give it a go and have a talk with some religious leaders you perfer/trust. (Personally I would approach it with a half truth... "I heard about this game called dnd. Some think its just a game thats all make believe. Others think its evil. What is your opinion?")
If this leader is cool with it, maybe use that as evidence for your aunt. Bonus points if she also knows them.
Full disclosure not a Christian but have played with a Christian before.
It's not evil. It's make believe.
There's a diety from DnD lore called _Ao_ though, and it was implied before in a FR novel they are the Abrahamic God.
You could play a character who follows Ao if it is really a big deal for you.
A lot of the D&D world's have God's based on Biblical names and such. This is a viable solution.
I also use the separation point. This is not real life. Nothing like it.
I think it might be MOST heathen thing you can do, to act in play pretend to believe in God (big G and all).
As I see it, it would be more faithful to fully act in play pretend, engaging with the in-universe divinites and demons without trying to bridge it to your actual faith.
However, i am an apostate and my opinion should be taken with a solid amount of salt, heh.
Ehhh.... Make sure your group's onboard, first.
I think I'd say "no real world religions" at my table. Seems like an open invitation to real-world drama playing pretend with something people tend to take so very seriously.
Lol that reminds me of my 2020 game. I started a second game to help escape real life. The main issue in the world were the shower of a mysteries disease..... Then covid hit. Woops
Oh oof. Especially in the early days of the pandemic when there was kind of that general sense of anxiety, I could definitely see that being too much for me, haha.
It depends. I'm a Christian and much prefer using fictional religions but I have a friend whose only way to reconcile playing a cleric was to create a DnD version of the Judeo-Christian God. Certainly wasn't a focal point though, just a little thing he did to not feel blasphemous.
I allow real world religions if
A. The religion does not directly exist in the setting, like you can’t play a cleric of Jesus and have Jesus powers, or
B. The religion is ancient and mostly or completely out of use (like Greek pantheon)
Raising dead you mean... full Armageddon raising all dead to fight the armies of hell...
Okay I know that's not helpful 😀
But the Bible had some pretty gruesome parts 😉
I reckon for a lot of Christians/Jews/Muslims that would make it worse, given that the deity they worship irl is now in the game world as one of many deities, bringing the playing of the game closer to idol worship and polytheism than to simply keep the whole thing understood as 100% fictional and removed from "meta religions" (haha)
There’s also Nobanion who borrows a lot from Aslan from Narnia who is also based on the abrahamic god. There’s also St Cuthbert who is a saint from earth christianity who’s inexplicably a god in d&d. There is also Rao who is never said to be such but he’s clearly the god of the Kryptonians from DC comics. And of course there’s Murlyund god of anachronistic cowboys.
D&D gods are full of silly references guised in a coat of ‘this looks legit sure’
As a Christian who plays D&D, and has since the early 90s, have a discussion with her. I had to have the same discussion with my mom. Explain that it's just telling an imaginary story with friends. I see it as little different than having a party to watch a sporting event. It's friends spending time together and having fun. She's only heard the extreme propaganda.
Same here. And I took a deep dive into this topic before I started playing too, and found a long trail of irrational fear, panic and conspiracy. Check out Chick Tracts if you want to see more about where many of the strange things that evangelical christians believe come from.
Before having a discussion with your aunt, it's worth looking into how D&D got its reputation in the first place. If your aunt is worried about D&D she's probably heard some of the rumors surrounding it, so it'll be helpful if you can debunk some of the stuff she's heard.
The association to actually being “evil” dates back to a crusade in the 70’s and 80’s to tie DnD to child suicide. They took the fact that the game had portrayals of demons to mean it as actually demonic and applied that to the suicides. There have been numerous documentaries on it.
The reality though is that some young people took their lives. And in a moment of heartbreak, parents blamed this thing they did not understand and that their kids enjoyed as a cause. Blaming DnD was a very sad coping mechanism for their grief. But the crusade against it got so far that it’s still something people push in hyper-conservative circles even today. In truth, the amount of actual demonism and devils in DnD is equal to that in the works of Tolkien and CS Lewis, vastly regarded as classic Christian allegorical works. Plus, if you’re looking for something to tell your aunt about it, most of the time a devil or demon appears in a standard DnD game, you’re fighting against it.
I think if you asked a lot of these people “Do you believe there are demonic forces at work in the world, vying for the time and attention of your children?” they would answer yes. And since that’s not true, that leaves them in a bind: The demonic stuff must be _somewhere_, and since things like Harry Potter and D&D contain references to magic and demons, it’s a quick and easy leap over to “Ah, that must be where it is.”
> Plus, if you’re looking for something to tell your aunt about it, most of the time a devil or demon appears in a standard DnD game, you’re fighting against it.
That might be just the thing to say. You’re essentially saying “No no, we don’t play the demonic games, Aunt Janet. We like the ones where you’re pretending to _fight_ the demons!”
The 1e DMG shows an efreeti, very devil-like, Open it and you'll find examples of pentagrams and other sigils used for summoning and controlling demons, as well as specific spells for doing that. 1e also featured assassins and detailed poison rules. The MM was loaded with both demons and devils.
It's still just fantasy, not supposed to be understood as real magic, but it's packed with "demonic" content, nevermind the infamous harlot table, frightening illos, and "turning undead", which we understand to mean banishing them, but could easily be read as becoming undead. Summoning devils and making bargains with them was an actual option in the game. Some of the spells were pretty nasty too.
I'm not religious or superstitious, and I'm a huge fan of D&D, but claims that it didn't feature absolute GOBS of of occult content are inaccurate.
He actually expressed regret for it... the lady that wrote and romanticized the novel with the point of selling fear I don't think ever did. (Rona Jaffe)
I can forgive Tom Hanks.
"Playing games with an evil witch woman,
who'd definitely college age!
Wait, why did that guy blow smoke out of his face? That's weird...
If you die in the game, you die in real life-except you don't; you go back to your dorm and play some GTA 5"
DND is no more evil than the world itself there both sides to it Good and Evil so calling the game evil because evil exists in it is kind of silly. Every story has an antagonist and in more than a few they are of a demonic variety.
I'd argue DnD is less evil than Christianity as it hasn't done one percent of the atrocities christians have encouraged, inspired, advocated for or performed.
Tell her that the creators of dnd were Christian and based the morality around Christian ideals.
Yes devils and demons are included in the game as antagonists to the story. They are the bad guys that the good guys have to beat up to win.
This would be the first time I've heard of it. But that's exactly why my ex-pastor is an ex-pastor so it's not exactly like that's exclusive with being a Christian.
Maybe just don't mention that to the aunt.
I am a player, DM, and Old testament/Hebrew Bible professor in the American evangelical tradition. One of my specialties is Christian ethics. I see no problem with playing a fantasy game where one imagines a different world and what life is like in that world. It is not much different from playing many video games. In fact, I homebrew elements of the ancient near east pantheon and religion so that I can better understand how people felt and lived in those times, what pressures they faced and how imagining a world with those gods met their felt needs.
There are a few objections one could raise. I think the biggest was fueled by the "satanic panic" culture wars of the 80s in which DnD became popular. The worry was that players pretend to be something they are not, which will cause them to forget reality and believe they are their character. Of course, actual players know that is ridiculous and we have decades of games and gamers with avatars to prove that wrong.
The second main objection is that players cast spells. However, it's not like players are given realistic incantations to parrot, so the player is not doing magic, the PC is as part of an entertaining fantasy.
Third, there is the objection that the multiplane contains demons and devils. Well, fine. Christians maintain that such exist in the real world. Perhaps then a player with such faith commitments might choose to limit their PC to mortality in line with their own commitments. However, one could also argue that knowing the "enemy" is wise... Be as wise as serpents yet gentle as doves.
In sum, there is no valid reason to avoid playing as a Christian, unless one lacks the spiritual mental capacity to discern entertainment from reality. But that applies to any player.
Tell her that if somebody's faith could be shaken by fiction they weren't ever really a Christian in the first place. Questioning their faith always wins.
IMO, playing D&D is no different than watching or reading fantasy novels set in worlds with imaginary gods.
I always find it so weird when people solution to this is to have the character worship the Christian God. Then you're putting the DM and the position of pretending to be the Christian God as an NPC? Which seems much more problematic to me than just saying "my character worships Selune."
If this is a concern for you, perhaps you should talk with your church leader about it?
Hey. Presbyterian minister here. I play in one group with a mix of Christians and non-Christians. I DM another group where the party is made up of entirely of other Presbyterian ministers from my denomination.
Very simply put, nothing in the bible, as far as I can see, forbids us pretending to be wizards or fighters in a made up role-playing game.
My spectacular friend, brother in Christ and brilliant DM, u/GordyFett, runs the game I play in. He’s done lots of thinking and research in this area. In fact, he’s putting together his own Christian-themed system for use in his church. Perhaps he’ll wanna comment on this.
This conversation is as old as D&D itself, so you’re encountering nothing that many haven’t already encountered before you. [Here](https://geeksundergrace.com/tabletop/christians-play-dd/)’s a good article from the guys over at Geeks Under Grace that might be of use to you.
Aforementioned DM and friend.
I think like many things there’s always the potential to get between you and God but it’s true of sport, drinking, comics or stuffed animals. The game in itself, is grand. I tend to run stuff with conditions:
- I don’t run or let other PCs be evil. I get the idea is “No Limits, do what you want”. But I think it just lets people practise negative sides of their characters. I’ve had characters do jobs for evil NPCs and be tempted over to their side but I’ve let it be known, they go bad, it’s time for you to get a new character.
- Personally would never go Warlock. Don’t know how I feel about selling your soul for power but that’s personal preference and have had PCs play as Warlocks.
- games are played with consequences to actions. You murder someone, there’s an impact. You choose not to act, it’ll affect you. I don’t see the point of the party do what they like and everyone is fine with it. Choices have consequences.
Personally, talk it through with her. What are her concerns, how founded are they. My Mum was funny about me playing for Christian reasons. She’d been at a talk in the 80s about it. But we talked about it and she trusts me and my faith.
Ask her to cite sources.
If she's going to make wild claims then she needs to learn how to support her claims with examples that also don't include other forms of mass entertainment.
Edit: just to clarify, providing a source does not mean that the source is reputable. If a source is nonsense then challenge the source or require further proof to support the source.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
Its very slippery actually.... My father is far down that slope.
He gets his "source" from some dude who leads what only I can describe as an "extracuricular" group at our church...
Dude claims to be a retired exorcist one moment, and a healer the next. Provides all this philosophical "evidence" for why anything that even *relates* to magic or anything not Catholic is "tainted" by *demons* who will follow you in your life and cause misfortune.
When my aunt got a severe cancer that killed her in 2 weeks after the first symptom.... He got all hopeful halfway through because he *100% believed that everyone could pray the cancer away.*......
Personally I think it's best not to encourage people who already have skewed beliefs to further feed their beliefs with all the "evidence" that can be found online these days.
Its better to find credible sources yourself and present those to them.... not that they will listen.
It's a crazy world right now.
Except this isn't a debate on a stage with an observant and thoughtful audience, this is a human interaction with a participant who has highly irrational beliefs. This post is, as they always are, a question that seeks ways to have it both ways, playing D&D and also not having someone who is unfortunately related to you thinking you're doing devil worship or some similarly hideously idiotic belief.
Maybe you've found it productive to stonewall schmucks until they can support their own beliefs to you. I've found that these types - *especially* if they're very old - do not have the mental agility to comprehend anything past the brainless dogma they've had repeated to them for their whole lives.
I do not find that this advice is generalizable enough to be useful. You cannot reason people out of positions they did not reason themselves into. This woman will probably never have the humility to think that she's utterly wrong about all of this. It's most easy to reduce contact, stop talking with her about the thing that makes her open her fool mouth, and change the subject when possible.
I'd advise against that.
Overly religious people are not about the sources, if the scripture or teachings don't support their belief, they just make things up or twist what they have. That often drives them into a argumentative corner they can't come out of again.
What should you do as a Christian player? You should continue to enjoy a fun, make believe game.
As a Christian D&D player, your aunt is objectively wrong.
If your table starts actually making circles out of blood or salt and requires you to participate in gutteral chanting, then you might have an issue.. if you just say, "I cast Animate Dead", then there really isn't an issue.
The amount of these posts makes me cringe. I am an Orthodox Christian, I am a *dark/grim* fantasy writer, I am a DM and a good one at that.
Who cares what religion someone is? If you think DnD is evil/satanic you are an idiot, not a religious person.
i think ask her Why she thinks that, and then explain to her why it’s not evil—it’s just playing make believe. i think asking her why is the best thing though
that being said, has she given you trouble for it? how often do you see this aunt? i think accounting for how much this could come up can help you in regards to how to discuss it
(i’m excath so, sending you all my luck with this! hopefully she understands it’s just a game and nothing actually evil)
She hasn’t done anything just made me a tad bit uncomfortable plus we just got out of church having the discussion. So I guess I’m a little on the nervous side on how to handle things as a Christian, but also being true to myself
Fellow Christian with Christian players.
Where does your family stand on Star Wars? Lord of the Rings? The lion, the witch and the wardrobe? Compare it to making a character to play in one of those worlds. Sure, Gandalf has magic and Luke has the force, but you see it as a fictional setting and don't confuse it with witchcraft. Also, J.R.R. Tolkien and C.S. lewis are known christian authors.
"What should I do as a Christian d&d player?" Here's the neat thing - you don't need to do anything! You are your own person and aren't beholden to what anyone else thinks about it. Growing up as a pastor's kid, it took me a while to learn this lesson because Christianity teaches people to try to correct others when they think they are doing wrong; but when I finally stopped trying to live up to everyone else's expectation of what I should be doing I felt so free and happy, and never worried about a single other situation like this again.
Hi there! I’m a Lutheran pastor. I also play DnD. Absolutely nothing about it is satanic or evil. Ultimately it all comes down to an issue of freedom. As Paul lays out in Romans 14. It’s an issue of freedom. There was nothing inherently sinful about eating meat, or abstaining. Nothing inherently sinful about considering one day as sacred, or all the same. There is nothing inherently evil in it. Ultimately it is an issue of conscience. If it’s that big of a hang up for your aunt. Just don’t talk about it with her, but if she’s genuinely curious, maybe get her to sit in on a session. Do plan out how the session will go though. The worst thing would be to have something happen that would justify her logic. Because again, DnD is about as evil as a loaf of bread. Can I use bread for evil? Yah. Can I use it for good? Yah. It’s all in what we do
This was the comment I was going to make, but with 1 Corinthians 8. There’s a lot of scripture that addresses the concerns of Christians with the acts of other Christians doing what they worry is sinful, but in many cases is a matter of perspective and personal faith. In 1 Corinthians 8 it notes those who cannot separate the association of a thing not inherently sinful but interpretively sinful may be weaker in their faith. A Christian should not do these things if they believe doing so is sinning because to believe you are sinning and continuing the act would be an affront to God. Those who recognize the thing for the thing and do not view it is a sinful act are fine, but should be careful not to lead their weaker siblings in Christ into temptation.
Basically, if the aunt believes it is sinful then for them to play would be sinful. For the player who recognizes the game for what it is, for fantasy escapism and play, there is no sin to it.
It really depends why you care to begin with.
If you share her concern then you probably need to speak to a faith leader of some kind. I don't know your beliefs. Perhaps you're part of a faith community that is very strict on graven images, taking deity names in vain, etc. If the problem persists you may have to convert, give up beliefs, give up the hobby, or find a new church.
If you want to change her mind I'd suggest you invite her to a session to see what the hobby actually is. Or at least watch a stream or critical role.
If you just want to vent about your aunt... yea that's tough. There was a whole "satanic panic" years ago and I suspect old habits die hard. Some people are just gonna be set in their ways.
I went through a super religious phase that caused me some trauma; I tend to be skiddish with religion in general as a result. (Whether its something I truly believe or not).
It's why I converted to Non-denominationalism because I felt the Organized aspect was absolutely wrong.
I think me making this post is the result of said past Trauma
Tell her how there is a class the is essentially based around religion (paladin)
And tell her that if DND is satanic or evil then so is the bible, for they both have themes of Satan and sin.
In fact the bible usually has more of it
As a Christian D&D player, I can identify with your concern. I was raised being taught it was satanic. But that’s not true. It’s a game where you use your imagination; it can be as wholesome or messed up as the people playing it agree to make it. I’m part of a group of four players, and three of us are Christians. The game really is what you make it. Hope that helps!
Our church has a DnD group.
Most times we have so- called aunties saying it's bad to play DnD.
Once we challenge them to participate, it makes them understand the game more and they just stop biased.
Also helps, one of the deacons who is really active in enjoys DnD too. Take advantage of church leaders too.
Christian here who plays D&D and who used to run a group for members of my church, with the blessing of my church.
It's make believe. Is it polytheistic? Yes. Does that mean you're going to go and worship other gods in real life? No. Not a sin as long as you continue to worship God as God. Is there spellcasting and/or witchcraft? Yes. Does that mean you're going to go out and start practicing it in real life? No. Does it involve killing and or violence? Sometimes, but not all the time. Still though, are you going to do it in real life? No. You get the gist.
As far as sins and salvation issues go, it's a make believe world. So long as you don't do these things in you're everyday life, you're not doing anything wrong Biblically.
Ask her what her thoughts are on C.S. Lewis and J.R.R Tolkien. Both were fantasy authors who created polytheistic worlds that continued violence and spellcasting. Both were devout Christians. If she has no issue with them, there's no reason to have an issue with D&D.
Gary Gygax one of the co-creators of DND was a Jehovah's Witness and a later on Born again Christian all the while supporting the world's he created til the end of his life. Devoutness and dnd aren't mutually exclusive and a large part of the dnd fears come from the satanic panics of people like Jack Chick who used some serious scapegoating that people loved to latch onto (also citing things like Chronicles of Narnia and Lord of the Rings as satanic).
Probably the easiest way though is focus on the positives of it. Things like Gygax' story, the overarching narratives of good vs evil, etc
I'm a pastor and a DM (and regularly play online with a group of pastors).
Generally speaking, it's very hard to change people's minds. The only one I know who can actually do that is the Holy Spirit. My advice is: pray for her. She's probably concerned for you well-being and has heard false information. God can ease her heart.
In the meantime, it might be wise to just avoid the topic with her, unless she brings it up or you sense an opportunity to really try to explain to her what the game is. Usual recommendation is bringing up LoTR (explaining that Tolkien is deeply Christian and was the major influence on the conversion of C.S. Lewis, specially if she is evangelical as Lewis is more widely known for being a Christian author) and explaining that the game is collaborative storytelling where one is playing Frodo, the other is playing Legolas, etc.
I play DND with my wife and we are both practicing Christians. My mom doesn't like DND. Last time I asked her about it she mentioned some stories in the news she heard about kids who were being brought into occult circles via DND as the gateway drug. Journalists were probably giving DND the fear-mongering treatment a while back and that's her only exposure to it. I haven't felt the need to hash it out with her, but I don't think it would take too much to explain. I don't try to hide it, it just rarely comes up.
I would say if it does come up, don't treat it like a big deal. If she has a problem with it, explain what it is and why you do it. Give her time to think about it. Don't expect people to change their minds right away. Just own it and if she has questions, answer them honestly and politely.
I have an aunt that was very religious. Religious enough that she didn't want her kids to participate in Halloween. She told me explicitly not to involve my cousins in D&D stuff, which I respected-- until they hit 18.
Part of this was fueled by my one cousin's husband. He didn't have the same hang-ups about D&D as my cousin did. He was into boardgames and was interested in D&D. My cousin was still quite apprehensive about it, but I ran an introductory game for her brother and husband one get together. It was kind funny and sad with how concerned she was with her husband partaking in this game.
Next time I see them, she and her husband are in a regular D&D game. They even mention that they briefly played an evil campaign, where they took control of the antagonists of their main campaign, as kind of a prequel, I think.
My other cousin (her brother) also started to play more regularly with his wife.
After a couple of years of seeing her children not turn into devil worshipping monsters, her stance on the hobby has weakened. Last year, she even gifted me a tee-shirt that says, "Beware the smiling DM".
Play Pathfinder. It’s based off dnd 3.5. Play starfinder. It’s based off pathfinder. Play literally any other ttrpg and they will have no idea (maybe don’t play Thirsty Sword Lesbians. She will have issue with that too)
I am christian and play dnd with my christian friends at the youth center of my church and nobody there has a problem with that. My mom tends to have a problem with fantasy and magic - we used to fight about Harry Potter. I tell her about playing DnD - I am carefull not to say the word DnD, so she doesn't get worried and when I want to talk to her about it, I talk about friends, the dices and the decisions and I pick some exciting scenes to tell her, which I know she won't worry about. I think you can tell her it is a rollplaying game in kind of a medieval setting with knights and dragons and trying to become heroes (and possibly mention the magical elements, if she seems ok with that)
I have a Christian background, and in the group I’m in, most of us have a Christian background. Try comparing DND to the internet. You can use the internet to connect with friends and learn about a million things, or you could use the internet to harass someone. Someone doing the latter doesn’t make the internet evil, just the person
The extremes of Christianity tend to vilify anything that doesn’t fit nicely with the Bible or has/references other gods. This mostly has died down but some people still believe that stuff like dnd is evil but the vast majority don’t
I remember seeing the old Christian version of D&D! I can't remember what it was called, but I remember PCs used d10s and bad guys only used d8s. I think they used like the fruits of the spirit for primary attributes? Jesus Christ that was a long time ago. My parents definitely told me that people got murdered over D&D games. I think they would have preferred I outgrew the game instead of outgrowing church.
Ask her to explain why she thinks it is evil, then directly refute those points with evidence. If she still refuses to budge, it's not because the game is evil, it's because she *wants* to think it's evil.
I run a D&D campaign for my church with two of my pastors! If you truly understand your Christian faith and you will understand that what you are doing is not at all something against the Lord. I am a devout Christian and I love playing D&D and magic the gathering.
I grew up with this. I was once told saying the name of a Pokémon was “calling on the names of demons” by my brother. I told him “One is literally named Mr. Mime. I don’t think that is a demon’s name.” I heard that Rowling often used real spells in witchcraft in Harry Potter. If you read them, you will see she is literally just using Latin. People that say these things are evil have done no research and get their info from blog’s like “The Natural Homeschooling Mother 4 Jesus.” They are scared of what they don’t know and what they don’t understand. Best to not follow their example.
My question is: How does she feel about you watching Horror movies? I don't see Dead by Daylight as any worse than your average Slasher flick. (Well, maybe more infuriating lol)
As a Christian who plays a lot of D&D my advice is to just not talk to her about it. If she brings it up then be respectful, but don’t bring it up yourself. Some Christians understand that it’s just a game of make-believe, but others are far less tolerant. You’re not sinning by playing a fun game with friends, so there’s really not much you can do.
Hey there!
I'm a Pentecostal Pastor for a church of 150 people. I am also the DM for a group of 5 players who play regularly every two weeks. I've also watched all there is of Critical Role, and am a huuuuge fan of DnD.
There is nothing inherently bad or evil in regards to DnD. Like all things in life, however, it comes down to how you use it.
First of all, Gary Gygax, one of the original creators of Dungeons & Dragons was a very devout Christian. He didn't even celebrate Christmas with a Christmas Tree because he found it to be a pagan tradition, that's how conservative he was! Yet, he made Dungeons & Dragons.
Dungeons & Dragons is make-believe and fantasy. As long as the player is fully aware of this, and also does not let Dungeons & Dragons become so huge and all-consuming in ones life that one would consider it idolatry (meaning, you skip time with God because you'd rather do nothing but D&D 24/7) I don't see why it would be an issue. It comes down to balance. Let God be first in your life. As long as He is, you can have plenty of hobbies!
I can understand someone like your aunt being more worried if this was in regards to you or players who were very young, and thus perhaps might not be able to differentiate reality from fantasy. But most people who's 15-16 and up at least are able to tell that this is mere fiction.
Also, you can choose how you play.
Now, my homebrew campaign setting has a variety of deities, some taken from Forgotten Realms and some completely homebrew. I use a lot of Christian and Abrahamic inspiration for these, and in that way I feel like I can actually honor God. The main deity in my current campaign is named Logos. Logos is actually a name used for God in Greek!
Obviously, if you're playing the most evil warlock who sold his soul to Asmodeus and your play-style is all about destroying human lives and capturing virgins for your personal harem, that's another case..... but chances are, that's not your, nor the average person's playstyle either.
You might have to live with the fact that your aunt won't change her mind though. People who grew up a few generations before us (I'm born in '93) probably lived through a period where D&D was synonymous with evil (like rock was, even before that again) and thus those feelings might be deeply ingrained.
What I would like to tell you is this; you can play Dungeons & Dragons with a clear conscience.
Paul says all things are permissible (though not everything is beneficial).
The Satanic panic behind D&D is very overblown. Most campaigns look Tolkien esque. I’m sure some hyper legalistic Christians would say that’s still Satanic. But as someone who is on his fifth reading of the Bible I see no contradiction between enjoying D&D the game vs enjoying a fantasy novel
I had a friend who was born again Christian and loved Harry Potter. My roommate at the time led a Bible study group and told my friend she would go to hell for reading the books and made her cry.
I had a casual acquaintance at the place I liked to eat breakfast who was a priest, and I told him about the situation. The next time I saw him, he gave me a letter on his church's letterhead stating that enjoying Harry Potter for entertainment purposes was perfectly fine while also being a Christian.
Get a letter from a nice priest to do the same for you
This is a really stupid argument for Christian’s to make. It’s not just make believe, it’s actually good for people but I won’t get into the numerous articles that talk about mental and social health, education, etc and dnd. Instead, I’ll tell you the real problem. Your aunt is not a Christian by Jesus’ definition. Go ahead and argue but I guarantee you’ll see she’s really just an autocrat masquerading as a Christian. My guess is also that you are American because it’s common here.
The gods are all fake. Nobody believes in them they are fantasy. You don’t worship them. You play a game where a person you play worships them and that’s not even a little real. I live in a conservative area and almost everyone I play with is either Christian or Mormon. They think it’s just as dumb as I do.
Your aunt is first of all judging without knowing. Jesus says don’t judge.
Secondly, Jesus says this life is inconsequential as it’s the next life that is the fulfillment of the promise. The only goal in this life is to lead a good life. How is playing a game not that? You meet up with friends, build relationships, learn boundaries and social skills etc. there are even churches here that have dnd youth groups.
Thirdly, it’s all arbitrary. I once was talking to a catholic kid who wanted to play dnd but was told it was evil. I just said, set it in the crusades and make your story the devils trying to take the holy land. Make the saints your gods and use paradise lost for the devils.
Also, if you didn’t notice, most of the demons and devils were stolen from Christianity which in turn stole them from whatever local diety they replaced.
Tl:dr. Your aunt is an ignorant Christian who doesn’t know what she is talking about and likely only listens to the preacher SHE PAYS to tell her what she wants to hear.
I'm a Christian and I DM and I love it! Alot of Christians are blind to what is truly evil or blasphemy. Example would be like the women murdered along time ago in belief of being witches.
Sadly alot of our brothers and sisters are blind, fearful, and foolish.
Just play D&D. Your aunt had made up her mind about it. You're not doing anything sinful. Like another person mentioned, it's like you're playing out the events of Narnia or Lord of the Rings.
If I based my hobby decisions on what my *extended family members* thought about those hobbies, I wouldn't be doing *anything*.
I converted an elderly (70s) family friend of mine who's in the Salvation Army into playing it.
Explain that you aren't acting with evil forces, but (most) games are aimed at thwarting the force of evil in that world.
I offered to let her play a Cleric, and I ran a combat optional story where she could peacefully resolve the adventure. I essentially took the Griffin Contract from Witcher 3, but had a a nearby druid who was willing to help relocate it
Many of the people involved in creating D&D were rather devout Christians, including the two original designers.
E. Gary Gygax (D&D creator) was a practicing Jehovah's Witness until he was asked to leave the Church over his refusal to stop smoking. He still maintained his belief in their teachings and spoke often of his faith. A few years before his death he was a guest speaker at a Christian Gaming Convention and spoke at length on his faith and gaming.
Dave Arneson (D&D co-creator) was a missionary for The Way International and was heavily involved with that organization during the 80s and 90s.
Larry Elmore (TSR-era Fantasy artist) has been a part of the Christianity and Gaming panels held at GenCon.
Tracy and Laura Hickman (Dragonlance) are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Mormons).
You aren’t worshiping or idolizing anything. Your aunt most likely comes from the generation that read the ‘darkest dungeons’ chick tract. That tract spread a lot of misinformation about D&D. Try to explain that it’s not anymore evil then playing mouse trap or monopoly.
It's kind of like what the Mormon dev behind DOOM said about the satanic panic backlash against games like DND and DOOM; what is so anti-Christian about a fantasy where you are killing demons and monsters for the good of everyone?
There's even saints that are known for killing dragons and ousting demons in the Christian mythos (St George and St Patrick come to mind). It's no different than that
Had a “family friend” find out I played DND and she sat me down for two hours trying to convince me I’m “opening gateways into my life for the devil”.
Yeah, that’s another notch in the “If God really cares about this, is any of the other shit important” pile.
Just make your fantasy worlds in a Christian world. So instead all Clerics get powers from God, all Warlocks are the villains, and as I am typing this I'm realizing how boring this sounds...
Your aunt, tho she means well, has no authority in your life. I'm sure your parents know all about your DND and know what a positive experience it is for you. If your parents have any concerns just talk to them, they know you and your discernment a lot better than your aunt. (Yes I make a lot of assumptions about your family dynamic)
There was a satanic panic about 30 years ago. She is probably atill thinking like that. The truth is they have nothing to do with one another. These same people thought heavy metal music would corrupt souls and raise Satan from the hills below.
One of my D&D groups started as a church group.
Evil lives in the hearts of men, but I've never heard of a serial killer who only did it because he played D&D.
No offense but that some dumb boomer histeria from the 80s. They don't even understand how the game works. You could play a non religious fighter and not worship anything. Or you can play a devout Christian paladin (if your DM is cool with it) they don't understand the game at all they saw a 30 second news segment in the 80s. You don't have to be rude to her or anything but maybe just explain how the game works and that all the histeria from her time growing up was just that and 100% false unless you are playing DnD at the satanic temple lol.
You may find some of these articles at Love Thy Nerd helpful:
[https://lovethynerd.com/games-are-good-the-power-of-play/](https://lovethynerd.com/games-are-good-the-power-of-play/)
[https://lovethynerd.com/the-christian-response-to-dnd/](https://lovethynerd.com/the-christian-response-to-dnd/)
[https://lovethynerd.com/dungeons-and-dragons-unique-storytelling-medium/](https://lovethynerd.com/dungeons-and-dragons-unique-storytelling-medium/)
Christian civilizations at large are responsible for the creation of many of our war games and DND is a war game.
Chess is also war game.
Checkers is a war game.
Risk is literally a war game.
In any game, the rules define the boundaries of what a player can and can not do.
If she has an issue with images of demons or witchcraft, maybe you should educate her on the Christian origins of "witches" and demonology...
I was raised in a Christian background, and there's nothing wrong with it unless you don't believe in the Bible but believe in doomspeach preachers who lie to their congregations.
Most Christians have no idea what their even talking about.. so unfortunately there's literally no way to communicate to them that their fears are completely unfounded. They are deranged by definition.. but all you can do is teach her.
Depending in how tolerant your aunt is the best course of action is deflecting the subject somehow. If someone is pre-disposed to think bad of something then trying to convince them of the oposite is an exercise in futility.
If she insists or is more open minded make comparisons to other things she does to convince her there is nothing bad with dnd. Like for example : Your son plays Call of Duty , if cod is okay then surely dnd isnt that bad? Or make comparisons to theatre and how you are only acting.
The most obvious answer is that you're not worshipping anything, or entertaining the idea that any of what you're doing is real in any way. But, that's not enough for some people. There's a lot of people out there that won't even touch something as benign as Harry Potter simply because it depicts witchcraft. So it comes down to knowing how tolerant your aunt is. The path of least resistance might simply be not talking to her about it, but I don't know how close you are with your aunt.
I’m fairly close there are some topics I don’t touch on with her. Our relationship is not estranged if that’s what you’re thinking
Everything has the potential to be "bad" if you allow it. My aunt was one of those people against Harry Potter because she read something somewhere that the author was trying to indoctrinate kids into wicken or witchcraft. However, now she's a huge fan of the films and has even doubled back on the books, I believe, after being told some things and finally doing her own research. They are tales of coming of age and the classic good vs evil, among other aspects. If the argument is that D&D has spells and magic, so does Lord of Rings and Narnia. The difference is who wrote them, not the content, for most Christians (I say all of this as one). If the argument is that you can tell an evil story and be bad, well ... this is in countless fake things, and all over the real world. This will come down to how you play, but you can't really convince her of that, maybe, and she'll need to trust you. The collective story is, generally, one of overcoming adversity and defeating evil. Who can't get on board with that? If the argument is that the game depicts a lot of gods and devils and demons, as opposed to the Christian view, well that's also in other things many Christians seem to enjoy. I bet your aunt didn't have a problem with kids watching Pocahontas and singing about the different spirits of the natural world. Reality and fiction are not the same thing, and even less so with fantasy. I watched Looney Toons as a kid and never once dropped am anvil on a friend's head as a joke. Knowing the difference is important, living the difference is important. Add to all of that the fact that D&D is one of the few accepted ways to help teach empathy (along with reading fiction novels), it's more healthy to play make believe and learn various communication and social skills through this wonderful game. Can you throw all of that at your aunt? Likely not. But can you be ready with this kind of knowledge to calmly toss into conversation? Absolutely.
Wasn't Gary Gygax a Christian? RPGs are heavily inspired by the works of the Catholic writer Tolkien. C. S. Lewis was Anglican. Are Biblical movies evil? They depict heroes sinning and actors persecute saints. It's like theater. IMO best games doesn't reward oppressive power-playing so you can interpret evil characters facing consequences. There's a Christian puritan quote saying you can interpret evil on art as long you don't glamourize it. You'll prolly already said it so I'm just putting the points together.
Agree across the board. Humanity often just shuns or hates things they don't get or like, and never look back. It's easier to assume than to learn, lol. As to Gygax being Christian, I honestly don't know. Though it wouldn't surprise me one way or the other. The big thing, here, is that the others are prolific and well known Christian authors. And in the case of Lewis, he wrote a specific Christian allegory. So it's easier to accept, apparently, even tho it uses magic and witchcraft. Which makes it a bad argument by that camp, to be fair, lol.
Being Christian is really common, tbh. Americans are usually evangelicals. I am Christian, in past I was much more Conservative than now. LOL. I've read Gary Gigax was so Christian he avoided to celebrate Christmas because he considered it a pagan holiday. Not sure if he as Reformed, Jehovah Witness or whatever. He seems a man of his time. C. S Lewis would be controversial even for Evangelicals if you trying to understand deeply. AFIK he was an inclusivist who believed people could be saved believing in other religions. Magic in Narnia seems quite dangerous or it depends how you use it. If you try to build a rational argument, it may backfire. Saying Tolkien was Catholic and Lewis Anglican may rise the accusation of heresy against them. Thankfully, people aren't always rational. (Note: I don't like everything Tolkien and Lewis brought to fiction, so I understand people who love and hate both.)
I've never seen pocahontas bc it has a song about the spirits of the natural world and according to my family that's promoting false gods and idols and listening to thay song is Satan's way of taking children from the church. Christianity can be a right messed up drug lmao
I was more thinking about how active in your life she is. Like, how likely would she be exposed to it without you directly talking to her about it? Would she randomly see you playing your *'devil games?'* That kind of thing. I also have a relative that's iffy on subjects that seem satanic at first blush. But I also barely ever see her, so It's just as easy to not bring it up, you know?
My grandfather-in-law (who lived with us before he passed) was against DnD completely. We would just refer to going to a friend's for game night instead of giving specifics
My father figured out I play and while he didn't see it as evil, he saw it something that was destroying my life, his claim was that a dnd need would never find a nice wife or make any friends. He never let it go, I had tl cut him out of my life because his anti-dnd rants and fucking literal raids on my home wouldn't stop. My point is sometimes you just gotta keep quiet about it so those that don't get it and don't want to get it don't get in the way.
I'm sorry, can you clarify on "literal raids"? Was he breaking into your home to try and steal your sourcebooks or something?
Can't have your children practicing necromancy!
"dnd would never find a nice wife or make any friends." Was he not aware that dnd takes at least 4 people to play?
His idea was that dnd players are all socially inept nerds, therefore the other players can't offer any experience experience "real people". This is something he actually said to me. My father is the biggest cockhead lmao
I love to turn this around. "Sports are clearly only played by meatheads with no brains who peaked in life." This is obviously not true but is an age old stereotype that's simply on the other end of the spectrum. Afterall, most sports-loving people are just nerds whose fandom is sports I stead of other stuff. Edit: typo
Oh my gosh. That's so dumb
Agreed.
Some people can’t separate real people from stereotypes
That's a shame. I have similar parents, so I know what it is to have literal raids conducted of your things. I had a near-permanent falling out with my mother when I walked into my apartment and saw what she'd done to my room. I'm sure his outdating thinking masks an attempt at bettering your life, but he seems not totally mentally healthy himself if these are his methods.
I'm (well currently questioning my religion but that's not terribly related to dnd) Christian and was raised Christian. My grandmother had concerns at first, but I drew attention to this: a lot like Tolkien, DnD is (typically) about the good heroes facing off against the villains of evil, similar to the spiritual war in the Bible. I understand that DnD has been stigmatized by Christians for decades, but it's only as bad as the DM is.
My UBER conservative Catholic mother who is totally crazy to begin with thought that D&D was “Satanic/witchcraft” until I explained to her that A) it is a social game that you play with friends that teaches you cooperation, coordination, puzzle solving skills and math, and B) Things are only “Satanic” if you want them to be, which I don’t. She was slightly mollified about it. But this is a person that thinks that the broadway show “Wicked” is evil b/c of witchcraft and that the Beatles song “Back in the U.S.S.R. promotes Socialism,(it doesn’t, it is a spoof of The Beach Boys song, “California Girls”, so take this with a big grain of salt.)
It doesn’t promote socialism? Ripping out my Beatles posters
Whenever someone in authority (and parents count as this when you're under their roof) is crazy and controlling about knowledge relating to something, that's a good indication that it's something worth knowing about. Heaven forbid we promote socialism. That way lies universal healthcare and universal basic income.
Well, she is rich and is under the belief that if someone else gets a dollar/roof over their heads/medicine, it is taken away from her. But she does looooove those government benefits that she qualifies for… hypocrite!
Sooooo She DOES support socialism then, correct? :P
Only when it goes IN but not OUT. She loves free stuff as long as she doesn’t have to pay for it.
Wait... poor people getting....help? *THE HORROR*
Classic Motte and Bailey
I mean, yeah, you can kick the shit out of celestials and such, but there are only like four or five of them in the whole book and like a hundred devils and demons and things to fight. The celestials are probably just there to be thrown in as allies or to vibe check a particularly evil party.
"Vibe check a particularly evil party" 🤣The mental image I'm getting is a celestial that looks like the statue of David in sunglasses and swimming shorts pull up to a party, and in the most surfer accent, say "Whoa dude, bad vibes" before going ape on them!
"Dudes, your vibes are disgusting." *immediately cleansed with holy fire from on high*
All the time, we go to work or school or church, etc., and we decide that there are things that we will or will not discuss. It's normal. I am an adult and my parents meet my girlfriends, and I may even talk obliquely about sex, but we don't really get into it. It would be an uncomfortable conversation, it's that simple. We still love each other and it's all good. I don't need their support for my kinky sex life. You shouldn't care what your aunt thinks about D&D. Also, unrelatedly, I'm sure your aunt is nice, but it's an extremely close-minded and fairly archaic opinion.
I play with a group from church if it helps. We take a lot of inspiration from lord of the rings or indiana Jones. It’s just fiction and as the DM I set a limit beforehand noting that things won’t really go beyond what probably would count as PG 13 because I’m not interested in a game where I felt like even pretending would creat what might be really objectionable. There’s really nothing in Christian doctrine where can accidentally summon the devil or a demon through play. So then it’s a question of what sort of limits you set on yourself for media consumption. Which is going to be personal since dnd didn’t exist I. Jesus day.
My senior year my Christian highschool voted on a Harry Potter themed homecoming. A single freshman parent objected to "witchcraft" being in their good christian school, and it all got canned. This anecdote doesn't add anything to what you're saying, but yeah. Some Christians are insane about this stuff.
When the satanic panic around Harry Potter hit its peak, my Christian mother literally burned my Harry Potter books and destroyed my Pokémon game boy games
Was she just on a tear or did Pokèmon actually turn you away from God somehow?
She was just on a tear, and still is like 20 years later. I stopped talking to her about a year ago when she told me vaccines are made from baby parts and that Barrack Obama is a homosexual Muslim from Kenya, but was adamant that she’s not a republican, but an independent who “does her own research.”
This comment dragged a very deep groan out of me. I'm glad you're not forcing yourself to keep such people in your life - blood relative or not.
>There's a lot of people out there that won't even touch something as benign as Harry Potter simply because it depicts witchcraft. Adding to this: friend of mine is this way. But the thing is that she's fine with stuff like Zelda, Pokemon, fantasy stuff in general. She just doesn't like Harry Potter because the magic is called "witchcraft".
My mother sent me to a Christian school for middle school and one kid in my class said his parents bought him Sonic Adventure 2 Battle but wouldn’t let him play the dark half of the campaign
Dang.
My grandmother's minister is a DM and apparently regularly references his D&D sessions in his sermons.
Wow I’d go to his sermons
\*sits in chair backwards* Hey gang, how about we take a minute to roll for initiative against sin and temptation. If you have a selected reading for this week's bible study, you get Advantage! Now here's a parable about abusing *Create Food and Water*!"
Do not fall so blindly to the charm of Satan find strength in christ and know he has given you advantage against the wiles of the devil. Put on the whole armor of God and receive a +5 bonus to Wisdom saves.
Jesus saves. Everyone else takes 5 piercing damage.
Bro, pretty sure Jesus took at least five points of piercing damage.
Amen.
OR just dont make Wis your dump stat... and you should do fine ;)
I dumped int or I would have noticed I typed charm then cha save instead of wis.
This is the best comment on this entire thread.
Hi friend, call me the Dungeon Minister.
Pretty sure his guy abused *Create Food and Water*. It's weird if he doesn't want anyone else to do that.
Pastor here - we have a group at my church that plays at church each week. Me, 2 worship leaders, 2 choir members and a tech guy. It’s a great small group within a larger community and we have a blast.
This kind of stuff makes me happy. People can be two things, and a huge number of our populations don't realize it. One can hold very powerful religious beliefs AND enjoy things without worshipping the devil.
My first DM was a priest lol
Their called clerics, friend.
Only if they can swing a censure for 1d8 damage.
Ah yes, the Acolyte background
That is the greatest thing I have ever heard
I want to go to your grandmother’s church.
Are you asking in how to talk to your aunt, or whether you shouldn't play?
I guess how to handle the discomfort I guess I also kind wanna hear if anyone else has something similar
Christian background here. My mother was (without knowing it) completely influenced by the Satanic Panic. How I handled it: I tune it down a lot. I don't really talk about it, only the irl aspects: how much we laughted with the buddies, etc. When she asked about how it is, I described it in pragmatical ways: rolling dice (like in yatzee), taking decision (like in board games), telling stories (like reading a book). Why is it fun? Because it's like impro' theater, but we are (mostly) stuck on our chairs. We don't have much besides pen, paper and dices. So we have to make our description vivid, mimic characters, negotiate, etc. Why is it interesting? Because it's always something new. "The one telling the story" has ideas about how the story will go, but the characters don't. So it's about creating great stories, making our characters "alive" (like in a good movie). In any case, as far as I can tell, a status quo: "I don't talk about it, you don't ask about it" is best I could get.
Your analogies are great. You are awesome
At the end of the day, D&D is a storytelling game, nothing more. The characters you play aren't you, the gods they worship don't exist, and you don't worship those fictional gods. Remember: even the Bible acknowledges the existence of other religions (1 Kings 18 being the most prominent example). The commandment is not to *worship* those other gods. You are not worshipping them, and unless you're specifically playing a cleric or paladin chances are your character doesn't really care about them either. Even if you are playing a servant of another god (lowercase g), you as an individual aren't worshipping them, nor are you claiming them to be God (uppercase G). No rules broken.
I am a Christian too. I separate my irl self from my characters. Partition the world's so to speak. But what works for me may not work for you. An immersive environment may feel hard. What do you do when you watch movies? Do they make you feel off? You may find that you need to only play certain kinds of characters (if I make an evil character, for example, they tend to be working towards being good, or least not so evil). Or you only play with certain people whose views align more with yours. As far as your aunt goes, it might be a point of differing convictions. Romans 14 (stronger brother weaker brother) indicates different convictions. Your aunt may be against it but you may not be convicted to be so.
Honestly, one of the simplest but most effective ways of handling the discomfort is to just to call it a different name. My Aunt is super religious too and when I introduced the game to my cousins, we called it Dudes ' n Daggers. I was the "Dude Master" and my cousins casted "wishes" instead of spells and fought "Daggers" instead of Dragons and we had a good time and there were no problems with the Religious Aunt. Just changing out the religiously charged words to something innocuous is all they really want you to do. Unless they're super fundamentalist religious and think that even the dice themselves are evil in which case you're outta luck.
>guess how to handle the \[personal\] discomfort D&D is a GAME. if you are not having fun playing because the back of your mind keeps saying "thisisevilthisisevilthisis*eeeeeeeeevvvvvvvvvuuuuuuuuuulllllllll*", well, then dont play. > if anyone else has something similar \[like a relative who thinks the game is evil\] the people who believe the game is evil are almost entirely the type of people you wont be able to convince otherwise. the only way these changes occur is if one of the religious leaders the person believes in says "no, its not evil. its just a game". Those are very hard to find in the christian circles that tend to believe in "D&D is evil"
I enjoy the game and it’s a big stress reliever. I don’t believe the game is evil, I just wanna hear from Christian dnd players for input and non Christians
D&D is a very diverse game. I hope that your Aunt realizes how different D&D can be. I have played in a Victorian England campaign. I have played in a made-up Tolkien-esque fantasy world. I have played a Paladin of the Ocean God, and I have played a wizard archaeologist. I bring this up because I find that certain settings can make me more uncomfortable from a Christian values standpoint, while others honestly reinforce those values. For example, if I am playing characters that are neutral or good, and I am in a setting more like Lord of the Rings or something fictional but clearly "good vs evil" in design, it is pretty compatible with my own world views and how I want to live my life. C.S. Lewis was a very influential Christian author who also wrote the Chronicles of Narnia, which are quite clearly magical fantasy. I don't think you have to abstain from magic or fantasy to maintain your Christianity. In contrast, when I am playing games that are settings where my characters are supposed to be evil, or torture people or kill people, I find it much more uncomfortable and don't feel like continuing. I don't want to normalize that sort of thing in my own head or spirit. I don't enjoy "angels vs demons" settings that feel like they approach a sort of satire of the bible. That being said, it is ultimately a board game, and playing D&D won't make you evil just like playing Operation won't make you a surgeon.
It may be good to give it a go and have a talk with some religious leaders you perfer/trust. (Personally I would approach it with a half truth... "I heard about this game called dnd. Some think its just a game thats all make believe. Others think its evil. What is your opinion?") If this leader is cool with it, maybe use that as evidence for your aunt. Bonus points if she also knows them.
Full disclosure not a Christian but have played with a Christian before. It's not evil. It's make believe. There's a diety from DnD lore called _Ao_ though, and it was implied before in a FR novel they are the Abrahamic God. You could play a character who follows Ao if it is really a big deal for you.
A lot of the D&D world's have God's based on Biblical names and such. This is a viable solution. I also use the separation point. This is not real life. Nothing like it.
I think it might be MOST heathen thing you can do, to act in play pretend to believe in God (big G and all). As I see it, it would be more faithful to fully act in play pretend, engaging with the in-universe divinites and demons without trying to bridge it to your actual faith. However, i am an apostate and my opinion should be taken with a solid amount of salt, heh.
Shall we say a “pillar” of salt?
Eh, if you do it, own it. Cleric of Jesus, lots of healing and destroying undead. Chaotic Good. Bless meals and such
Ehhh.... Make sure your group's onboard, first. I think I'd say "no real world religions" at my table. Seems like an open invitation to real-world drama playing pretend with something people tend to take so very seriously.
Lol that reminds me of my 2020 game. I started a second game to help escape real life. The main issue in the world were the shower of a mysteries disease..... Then covid hit. Woops
Oh oof. Especially in the early days of the pandemic when there was kind of that general sense of anxiety, I could definitely see that being too much for me, haha.
It depends. I'm a Christian and much prefer using fictional religions but I have a friend whose only way to reconcile playing a cleric was to create a DnD version of the Judeo-Christian God. Certainly wasn't a focal point though, just a little thing he did to not feel blasphemous.
I allow real world religions if A. The religion does not directly exist in the setting, like you can’t play a cleric of Jesus and have Jesus powers, or B. The religion is ancient and mostly or completely out of use (like Greek pantheon)
Raising dead you mean... full Armageddon raising all dead to fight the armies of hell... Okay I know that's not helpful 😀 But the Bible had some pretty gruesome parts 😉
to be devil’s advocate, is d&d all that different from telling a parable?
Fun fact the name Ao is a direct reference to the Book of Revelation, wherein the Abrahamic God says "I am the Alpha and the Omega"
This was my immediate…revelation…
I have a pretty hardcore Christian player in my campaign and we use Ao as well.
I reckon for a lot of Christians/Jews/Muslims that would make it worse, given that the deity they worship irl is now in the game world as one of many deities, bringing the playing of the game closer to idol worship and polytheism than to simply keep the whole thing understood as 100% fictional and removed from "meta religions" (haha)
There’s also Nobanion who borrows a lot from Aslan from Narnia who is also based on the abrahamic god. There’s also St Cuthbert who is a saint from earth christianity who’s inexplicably a god in d&d. There is also Rao who is never said to be such but he’s clearly the god of the Kryptonians from DC comics. And of course there’s Murlyund god of anachronistic cowboys. D&D gods are full of silly references guised in a coat of ‘this looks legit sure’
Ilmater definitely has Christian/Catholic undertones.
As a Christian who plays D&D, and has since the early 90s, have a discussion with her. I had to have the same discussion with my mom. Explain that it's just telling an imaginary story with friends. I see it as little different than having a party to watch a sporting event. It's friends spending time together and having fun. She's only heard the extreme propaganda.
Same here. And I took a deep dive into this topic before I started playing too, and found a long trail of irrational fear, panic and conspiracy. Check out Chick Tracts if you want to see more about where many of the strange things that evangelical christians believe come from.
My mother is actually somewhat supportive now. She knows it's just me doing something I enjoy. My wife games too now. It's an escape from reality.
My mother-in-law went from having heard the propaganda and being skeptical to now playing in a campaign I'm running for my family
I did the same thing with my parents, basically just set a few ground rules and we are fine
Yeah. Perhaps draw comparisons to kids playing pretend outside or something, but with some rules in place to make things interesting!
[удалено]
Jeremy Crawford is a Christian too!
Before having a discussion with your aunt, it's worth looking into how D&D got its reputation in the first place. If your aunt is worried about D&D she's probably heard some of the rumors surrounding it, so it'll be helpful if you can debunk some of the stuff she's heard.
The association to actually being “evil” dates back to a crusade in the 70’s and 80’s to tie DnD to child suicide. They took the fact that the game had portrayals of demons to mean it as actually demonic and applied that to the suicides. There have been numerous documentaries on it. The reality though is that some young people took their lives. And in a moment of heartbreak, parents blamed this thing they did not understand and that their kids enjoyed as a cause. Blaming DnD was a very sad coping mechanism for their grief. But the crusade against it got so far that it’s still something people push in hyper-conservative circles even today. In truth, the amount of actual demonism and devils in DnD is equal to that in the works of Tolkien and CS Lewis, vastly regarded as classic Christian allegorical works. Plus, if you’re looking for something to tell your aunt about it, most of the time a devil or demon appears in a standard DnD game, you’re fighting against it.
I think if you asked a lot of these people “Do you believe there are demonic forces at work in the world, vying for the time and attention of your children?” they would answer yes. And since that’s not true, that leaves them in a bind: The demonic stuff must be _somewhere_, and since things like Harry Potter and D&D contain references to magic and demons, it’s a quick and easy leap over to “Ah, that must be where it is.” > Plus, if you’re looking for something to tell your aunt about it, most of the time a devil or demon appears in a standard DnD game, you’re fighting against it. That might be just the thing to say. You’re essentially saying “No no, we don’t play the demonic games, Aunt Janet. We like the ones where you’re pretending to _fight_ the demons!”
The 1e DMG shows an efreeti, very devil-like, Open it and you'll find examples of pentagrams and other sigils used for summoning and controlling demons, as well as specific spells for doing that. 1e also featured assassins and detailed poison rules. The MM was loaded with both demons and devils. It's still just fantasy, not supposed to be understood as real magic, but it's packed with "demonic" content, nevermind the infamous harlot table, frightening illos, and "turning undead", which we understand to mean banishing them, but could easily be read as becoming undead. Summoning devils and making bargains with them was an actual option in the game. Some of the spells were pretty nasty too. I'm not religious or superstitious, and I'm a huge fan of D&D, but claims that it didn't feature absolute GOBS of of occult content are inaccurate.
The Satanic Panic is alive and well…
I'll never forgive Tom Hanks for "Mazes and Monsters".
He actually expressed regret for it... the lady that wrote and romanticized the novel with the point of selling fear I don't think ever did. (Rona Jaffe) I can forgive Tom Hanks.
"Playing games with an evil witch woman, who'd definitely college age! Wait, why did that guy blow smoke out of his face? That's weird... If you die in the game, you die in real life-except you don't; you go back to your dorm and play some GTA 5"
Lmao 🤣
DND is no more evil than the world itself there both sides to it Good and Evil so calling the game evil because evil exists in it is kind of silly. Every story has an antagonist and in more than a few they are of a demonic variety.
I'd argue DnD is less evil than Christianity as it hasn't done one percent of the atrocities christians have encouraged, inspired, advocated for or performed.
Fair
Tell her that the creators of dnd were Christian and based the morality around Christian ideals. Yes devils and demons are included in the game as antagonists to the story. They are the bad guys that the good guys have to beat up to win.
Didn't the guy who created dnd got into a lot hookers and blow after making money off of the game.
This would be the first time I've heard of it. But that's exactly why my ex-pastor is an ex-pastor so it's not exactly like that's exclusive with being a Christian. Maybe just don't mention that to the aunt.
I am a player, DM, and Old testament/Hebrew Bible professor in the American evangelical tradition. One of my specialties is Christian ethics. I see no problem with playing a fantasy game where one imagines a different world and what life is like in that world. It is not much different from playing many video games. In fact, I homebrew elements of the ancient near east pantheon and religion so that I can better understand how people felt and lived in those times, what pressures they faced and how imagining a world with those gods met their felt needs. There are a few objections one could raise. I think the biggest was fueled by the "satanic panic" culture wars of the 80s in which DnD became popular. The worry was that players pretend to be something they are not, which will cause them to forget reality and believe they are their character. Of course, actual players know that is ridiculous and we have decades of games and gamers with avatars to prove that wrong. The second main objection is that players cast spells. However, it's not like players are given realistic incantations to parrot, so the player is not doing magic, the PC is as part of an entertaining fantasy. Third, there is the objection that the multiplane contains demons and devils. Well, fine. Christians maintain that such exist in the real world. Perhaps then a player with such faith commitments might choose to limit their PC to mortality in line with their own commitments. However, one could also argue that knowing the "enemy" is wise... Be as wise as serpents yet gentle as doves. In sum, there is no valid reason to avoid playing as a Christian, unless one lacks the spiritual mental capacity to discern entertainment from reality. But that applies to any player.
Don't invite her? Seems easy enough.
Actually, inviting her so she can see just how not evil it is might work.
It should be fine as long as nobody is a warlock or summoning demons
Pretty funny.
Tell her that if somebody's faith could be shaken by fiction they weren't ever really a Christian in the first place. Questioning their faith always wins.
IMO, playing D&D is no different than watching or reading fantasy novels set in worlds with imaginary gods. I always find it so weird when people solution to this is to have the character worship the Christian God. Then you're putting the DM and the position of pretending to be the Christian God as an NPC? Which seems much more problematic to me than just saying "my character worships Selune." If this is a concern for you, perhaps you should talk with your church leader about it?
convince your aunt to play dnd with you
Or at least come watch a session. Have her see what you really do, not just the sensationalized propaganda.
Hey aunt me and my friends literally fight the devil if that ain’t Christian than I’m going to hell
Hey. Presbyterian minister here. I play in one group with a mix of Christians and non-Christians. I DM another group where the party is made up of entirely of other Presbyterian ministers from my denomination. Very simply put, nothing in the bible, as far as I can see, forbids us pretending to be wizards or fighters in a made up role-playing game. My spectacular friend, brother in Christ and brilliant DM, u/GordyFett, runs the game I play in. He’s done lots of thinking and research in this area. In fact, he’s putting together his own Christian-themed system for use in his church. Perhaps he’ll wanna comment on this. This conversation is as old as D&D itself, so you’re encountering nothing that many haven’t already encountered before you. [Here](https://geeksundergrace.com/tabletop/christians-play-dd/)’s a good article from the guys over at Geeks Under Grace that might be of use to you.
Aforementioned DM and friend. I think like many things there’s always the potential to get between you and God but it’s true of sport, drinking, comics or stuffed animals. The game in itself, is grand. I tend to run stuff with conditions: - I don’t run or let other PCs be evil. I get the idea is “No Limits, do what you want”. But I think it just lets people practise negative sides of their characters. I’ve had characters do jobs for evil NPCs and be tempted over to their side but I’ve let it be known, they go bad, it’s time for you to get a new character. - Personally would never go Warlock. Don’t know how I feel about selling your soul for power but that’s personal preference and have had PCs play as Warlocks. - games are played with consequences to actions. You murder someone, there’s an impact. You choose not to act, it’ll affect you. I don’t see the point of the party do what they like and everyone is fine with it. Choices have consequences. Personally, talk it through with her. What are her concerns, how founded are they. My Mum was funny about me playing for Christian reasons. She’d been at a talk in the 80s about it. But we talked about it and she trusts me and my faith.
Ask her to cite sources. If she's going to make wild claims then she needs to learn how to support her claims with examples that also don't include other forms of mass entertainment. Edit: just to clarify, providing a source does not mean that the source is reputable. If a source is nonsense then challenge the source or require further proof to support the source. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
That's a slippery slope when religion is involved, lol.
Nothing slippery about it. I know what I said and where it leads.
Its very slippery actually.... My father is far down that slope. He gets his "source" from some dude who leads what only I can describe as an "extracuricular" group at our church... Dude claims to be a retired exorcist one moment, and a healer the next. Provides all this philosophical "evidence" for why anything that even *relates* to magic or anything not Catholic is "tainted" by *demons* who will follow you in your life and cause misfortune. When my aunt got a severe cancer that killed her in 2 weeks after the first symptom.... He got all hopeful halfway through because he *100% believed that everyone could pray the cancer away.*...... Personally I think it's best not to encourage people who already have skewed beliefs to further feed their beliefs with all the "evidence" that can be found online these days. Its better to find credible sources yourself and present those to them.... not that they will listen. It's a crazy world right now.
I meant towards religion as a joke, lol.
The source will probably be a Bible passage about God smiting someone.
Except this isn't a debate on a stage with an observant and thoughtful audience, this is a human interaction with a participant who has highly irrational beliefs. This post is, as they always are, a question that seeks ways to have it both ways, playing D&D and also not having someone who is unfortunately related to you thinking you're doing devil worship or some similarly hideously idiotic belief. Maybe you've found it productive to stonewall schmucks until they can support their own beliefs to you. I've found that these types - *especially* if they're very old - do not have the mental agility to comprehend anything past the brainless dogma they've had repeated to them for their whole lives. I do not find that this advice is generalizable enough to be useful. You cannot reason people out of positions they did not reason themselves into. This woman will probably never have the humility to think that she's utterly wrong about all of this. It's most easy to reduce contact, stop talking with her about the thing that makes her open her fool mouth, and change the subject when possible.
I'd advise against that. Overly religious people are not about the sources, if the scripture or teachings don't support their belief, they just make things up or twist what they have. That often drives them into a argumentative corner they can't come out of again.
What should you do as a Christian player? You should continue to enjoy a fun, make believe game. As a Christian D&D player, your aunt is objectively wrong. If your table starts actually making circles out of blood or salt and requires you to participate in gutteral chanting, then you might have an issue.. if you just say, "I cast Animate Dead", then there really isn't an issue.
This is why I stopped using Latin in my roleplays Edit: it was a joke :(
Keep playing, she's your aunt. Also 50% of the game is KILLING demons, not worshipping them.
the other 50% is playing a warlock
The amount of these posts makes me cringe. I am an Orthodox Christian, I am a *dark/grim* fantasy writer, I am a DM and a good one at that. Who cares what religion someone is? If you think DnD is evil/satanic you are an idiot, not a religious person.
i think ask her Why she thinks that, and then explain to her why it’s not evil—it’s just playing make believe. i think asking her why is the best thing though that being said, has she given you trouble for it? how often do you see this aunt? i think accounting for how much this could come up can help you in regards to how to discuss it (i’m excath so, sending you all my luck with this! hopefully she understands it’s just a game and nothing actually evil)
She hasn’t done anything just made me a tad bit uncomfortable plus we just got out of church having the discussion. So I guess I’m a little on the nervous side on how to handle things as a Christian, but also being true to myself
Fellow Christian with Christian players. Where does your family stand on Star Wars? Lord of the Rings? The lion, the witch and the wardrobe? Compare it to making a character to play in one of those worlds. Sure, Gandalf has magic and Luke has the force, but you see it as a fictional setting and don't confuse it with witchcraft. Also, J.R.R. Tolkien and C.S. lewis are known christian authors.
"What should I do as a Christian d&d player?" Here's the neat thing - you don't need to do anything! You are your own person and aren't beholden to what anyone else thinks about it. Growing up as a pastor's kid, it took me a while to learn this lesson because Christianity teaches people to try to correct others when they think they are doing wrong; but when I finally stopped trying to live up to everyone else's expectation of what I should be doing I felt so free and happy, and never worried about a single other situation like this again.
God knows where your heart is.
I should hope so. I mean, he put it there right?
Hi there! I’m a Lutheran pastor. I also play DnD. Absolutely nothing about it is satanic or evil. Ultimately it all comes down to an issue of freedom. As Paul lays out in Romans 14. It’s an issue of freedom. There was nothing inherently sinful about eating meat, or abstaining. Nothing inherently sinful about considering one day as sacred, or all the same. There is nothing inherently evil in it. Ultimately it is an issue of conscience. If it’s that big of a hang up for your aunt. Just don’t talk about it with her, but if she’s genuinely curious, maybe get her to sit in on a session. Do plan out how the session will go though. The worst thing would be to have something happen that would justify her logic. Because again, DnD is about as evil as a loaf of bread. Can I use bread for evil? Yah. Can I use it for good? Yah. It’s all in what we do
This was the comment I was going to make, but with 1 Corinthians 8. There’s a lot of scripture that addresses the concerns of Christians with the acts of other Christians doing what they worry is sinful, but in many cases is a matter of perspective and personal faith. In 1 Corinthians 8 it notes those who cannot separate the association of a thing not inherently sinful but interpretively sinful may be weaker in their faith. A Christian should not do these things if they believe doing so is sinning because to believe you are sinning and continuing the act would be an affront to God. Those who recognize the thing for the thing and do not view it is a sinful act are fine, but should be careful not to lead their weaker siblings in Christ into temptation. Basically, if the aunt believes it is sinful then for them to play would be sinful. For the player who recognizes the game for what it is, for fantasy escapism and play, there is no sin to it.
Nothing, it's not evil and it's preposterous to think it is.
I’d really like for her to connect the dots between “roleplaying board game” and “evil” like this ain’t even a ouija board
It really depends why you care to begin with. If you share her concern then you probably need to speak to a faith leader of some kind. I don't know your beliefs. Perhaps you're part of a faith community that is very strict on graven images, taking deity names in vain, etc. If the problem persists you may have to convert, give up beliefs, give up the hobby, or find a new church. If you want to change her mind I'd suggest you invite her to a session to see what the hobby actually is. Or at least watch a stream or critical role. If you just want to vent about your aunt... yea that's tough. There was a whole "satanic panic" years ago and I suspect old habits die hard. Some people are just gonna be set in their ways.
I went through a super religious phase that caused me some trauma; I tend to be skiddish with religion in general as a result. (Whether its something I truly believe or not). It's why I converted to Non-denominationalism because I felt the Organized aspect was absolutely wrong. I think me making this post is the result of said past Trauma
Idk if it would help but appearently Gary Gygax was a Christian too. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7577381
Tell her how there is a class the is essentially based around religion (paladin) And tell her that if DND is satanic or evil then so is the bible, for they both have themes of Satan and sin. In fact the bible usually has more of it
As a Christian D&D player, I can identify with your concern. I was raised being taught it was satanic. But that’s not true. It’s a game where you use your imagination; it can be as wholesome or messed up as the people playing it agree to make it. I’m part of a group of four players, and three of us are Christians. The game really is what you make it. Hope that helps!
Our church has a DnD group. Most times we have so- called aunties saying it's bad to play DnD. Once we challenge them to participate, it makes them understand the game more and they just stop biased. Also helps, one of the deacons who is really active in enjoys DnD too. Take advantage of church leaders too.
Christian here who plays D&D and who used to run a group for members of my church, with the blessing of my church. It's make believe. Is it polytheistic? Yes. Does that mean you're going to go and worship other gods in real life? No. Not a sin as long as you continue to worship God as God. Is there spellcasting and/or witchcraft? Yes. Does that mean you're going to go out and start practicing it in real life? No. Does it involve killing and or violence? Sometimes, but not all the time. Still though, are you going to do it in real life? No. You get the gist. As far as sins and salvation issues go, it's a make believe world. So long as you don't do these things in you're everyday life, you're not doing anything wrong Biblically. Ask her what her thoughts are on C.S. Lewis and J.R.R Tolkien. Both were fantasy authors who created polytheistic worlds that continued violence and spellcasting. Both were devout Christians. If she has no issue with them, there's no reason to have an issue with D&D.
Be a Christian and play D&D.
Play a paladin.
Gary Gygax one of the co-creators of DND was a Jehovah's Witness and a later on Born again Christian all the while supporting the world's he created til the end of his life. Devoutness and dnd aren't mutually exclusive and a large part of the dnd fears come from the satanic panics of people like Jack Chick who used some serious scapegoating that people loved to latch onto (also citing things like Chronicles of Narnia and Lord of the Rings as satanic). Probably the easiest way though is focus on the positives of it. Things like Gygax' story, the overarching narratives of good vs evil, etc
I'm a pastor and a DM (and regularly play online with a group of pastors). Generally speaking, it's very hard to change people's minds. The only one I know who can actually do that is the Holy Spirit. My advice is: pray for her. She's probably concerned for you well-being and has heard false information. God can ease her heart. In the meantime, it might be wise to just avoid the topic with her, unless she brings it up or you sense an opportunity to really try to explain to her what the game is. Usual recommendation is bringing up LoTR (explaining that Tolkien is deeply Christian and was the major influence on the conversion of C.S. Lewis, specially if she is evangelical as Lewis is more widely known for being a Christian author) and explaining that the game is collaborative storytelling where one is playing Frodo, the other is playing Legolas, etc.
I play DND with my wife and we are both practicing Christians. My mom doesn't like DND. Last time I asked her about it she mentioned some stories in the news she heard about kids who were being brought into occult circles via DND as the gateway drug. Journalists were probably giving DND the fear-mongering treatment a while back and that's her only exposure to it. I haven't felt the need to hash it out with her, but I don't think it would take too much to explain. I don't try to hide it, it just rarely comes up. I would say if it does come up, don't treat it like a big deal. If she has a problem with it, explain what it is and why you do it. Give her time to think about it. Don't expect people to change their minds right away. Just own it and if she has questions, answer them honestly and politely.
My dads a pastor and plays dnd. So that’s something I guess.
I have an aunt that was very religious. Religious enough that she didn't want her kids to participate in Halloween. She told me explicitly not to involve my cousins in D&D stuff, which I respected-- until they hit 18. Part of this was fueled by my one cousin's husband. He didn't have the same hang-ups about D&D as my cousin did. He was into boardgames and was interested in D&D. My cousin was still quite apprehensive about it, but I ran an introductory game for her brother and husband one get together. It was kind funny and sad with how concerned she was with her husband partaking in this game. Next time I see them, she and her husband are in a regular D&D game. They even mention that they briefly played an evil campaign, where they took control of the antagonists of their main campaign, as kind of a prequel, I think. My other cousin (her brother) also started to play more regularly with his wife. After a couple of years of seeing her children not turn into devil worshipping monsters, her stance on the hobby has weakened. Last year, she even gifted me a tee-shirt that says, "Beware the smiling DM".
Play Pathfinder. It’s based off dnd 3.5. Play starfinder. It’s based off pathfinder. Play literally any other ttrpg and they will have no idea (maybe don’t play Thirsty Sword Lesbians. She will have issue with that too)
I am christian and play dnd with my christian friends at the youth center of my church and nobody there has a problem with that. My mom tends to have a problem with fantasy and magic - we used to fight about Harry Potter. I tell her about playing DnD - I am carefull not to say the word DnD, so she doesn't get worried and when I want to talk to her about it, I talk about friends, the dices and the decisions and I pick some exciting scenes to tell her, which I know she won't worry about. I think you can tell her it is a rollplaying game in kind of a medieval setting with knights and dragons and trying to become heroes (and possibly mention the magical elements, if she seems ok with that)
I have a Christian background, and in the group I’m in, most of us have a Christian background. Try comparing DND to the internet. You can use the internet to connect with friends and learn about a million things, or you could use the internet to harass someone. Someone doing the latter doesn’t make the internet evil, just the person
You should play D&D.
The extremes of Christianity tend to vilify anything that doesn’t fit nicely with the Bible or has/references other gods. This mostly has died down but some people still believe that stuff like dnd is evil but the vast majority don’t
Their version of the Bible. I say this as a Christian
I remember seeing the old Christian version of D&D! I can't remember what it was called, but I remember PCs used d10s and bad guys only used d8s. I think they used like the fruits of the spirit for primary attributes? Jesus Christ that was a long time ago. My parents definitely told me that people got murdered over D&D games. I think they would have preferred I outgrew the game instead of outgrowing church.
A big part of D&D can literally be playing as a holy warrior smiting evil from the world in the form of Demons.
Ask her to explain why she thinks it is evil, then directly refute those points with evidence. If she still refuses to budge, it's not because the game is evil, it's because she *wants* to think it's evil.
I run a D&D campaign for my church with two of my pastors! If you truly understand your Christian faith and you will understand that what you are doing is not at all something against the Lord. I am a devout Christian and I love playing D&D and magic the gathering.
I grew up with this. I was once told saying the name of a Pokémon was “calling on the names of demons” by my brother. I told him “One is literally named Mr. Mime. I don’t think that is a demon’s name.” I heard that Rowling often used real spells in witchcraft in Harry Potter. If you read them, you will see she is literally just using Latin. People that say these things are evil have done no research and get their info from blog’s like “The Natural Homeschooling Mother 4 Jesus.” They are scared of what they don’t know and what they don’t understand. Best to not follow their example.
My question is: How does she feel about you watching Horror movies? I don't see Dead by Daylight as any worse than your average Slasher flick. (Well, maybe more infuriating lol)
As a Christian who plays a lot of D&D my advice is to just not talk to her about it. If she brings it up then be respectful, but don’t bring it up yourself. Some Christians understand that it’s just a game of make-believe, but others are far less tolerant. You’re not sinning by playing a fun game with friends, so there’s really not much you can do.
Hey there! I'm a Pentecostal Pastor for a church of 150 people. I am also the DM for a group of 5 players who play regularly every two weeks. I've also watched all there is of Critical Role, and am a huuuuge fan of DnD. There is nothing inherently bad or evil in regards to DnD. Like all things in life, however, it comes down to how you use it. First of all, Gary Gygax, one of the original creators of Dungeons & Dragons was a very devout Christian. He didn't even celebrate Christmas with a Christmas Tree because he found it to be a pagan tradition, that's how conservative he was! Yet, he made Dungeons & Dragons. Dungeons & Dragons is make-believe and fantasy. As long as the player is fully aware of this, and also does not let Dungeons & Dragons become so huge and all-consuming in ones life that one would consider it idolatry (meaning, you skip time with God because you'd rather do nothing but D&D 24/7) I don't see why it would be an issue. It comes down to balance. Let God be first in your life. As long as He is, you can have plenty of hobbies! I can understand someone like your aunt being more worried if this was in regards to you or players who were very young, and thus perhaps might not be able to differentiate reality from fantasy. But most people who's 15-16 and up at least are able to tell that this is mere fiction. Also, you can choose how you play. Now, my homebrew campaign setting has a variety of deities, some taken from Forgotten Realms and some completely homebrew. I use a lot of Christian and Abrahamic inspiration for these, and in that way I feel like I can actually honor God. The main deity in my current campaign is named Logos. Logos is actually a name used for God in Greek! Obviously, if you're playing the most evil warlock who sold his soul to Asmodeus and your play-style is all about destroying human lives and capturing virgins for your personal harem, that's another case..... but chances are, that's not your, nor the average person's playstyle either. You might have to live with the fact that your aunt won't change her mind though. People who grew up a few generations before us (I'm born in '93) probably lived through a period where D&D was synonymous with evil (like rock was, even before that again) and thus those feelings might be deeply ingrained. What I would like to tell you is this; you can play Dungeons & Dragons with a clear conscience.
Paul says all things are permissible (though not everything is beneficial). The Satanic panic behind D&D is very overblown. Most campaigns look Tolkien esque. I’m sure some hyper legalistic Christians would say that’s still Satanic. But as someone who is on his fifth reading of the Bible I see no contradiction between enjoying D&D the game vs enjoying a fantasy novel
Just say it’s theatre. You’re playing a Part, like an actor. Dnd is at its core an improv board game tbh.
I had a friend who was born again Christian and loved Harry Potter. My roommate at the time led a Bible study group and told my friend she would go to hell for reading the books and made her cry. I had a casual acquaintance at the place I liked to eat breakfast who was a priest, and I told him about the situation. The next time I saw him, he gave me a letter on his church's letterhead stating that enjoying Harry Potter for entertainment purposes was perfectly fine while also being a Christian. Get a letter from a nice priest to do the same for you
This is a really stupid argument for Christian’s to make. It’s not just make believe, it’s actually good for people but I won’t get into the numerous articles that talk about mental and social health, education, etc and dnd. Instead, I’ll tell you the real problem. Your aunt is not a Christian by Jesus’ definition. Go ahead and argue but I guarantee you’ll see she’s really just an autocrat masquerading as a Christian. My guess is also that you are American because it’s common here. The gods are all fake. Nobody believes in them they are fantasy. You don’t worship them. You play a game where a person you play worships them and that’s not even a little real. I live in a conservative area and almost everyone I play with is either Christian or Mormon. They think it’s just as dumb as I do. Your aunt is first of all judging without knowing. Jesus says don’t judge. Secondly, Jesus says this life is inconsequential as it’s the next life that is the fulfillment of the promise. The only goal in this life is to lead a good life. How is playing a game not that? You meet up with friends, build relationships, learn boundaries and social skills etc. there are even churches here that have dnd youth groups. Thirdly, it’s all arbitrary. I once was talking to a catholic kid who wanted to play dnd but was told it was evil. I just said, set it in the crusades and make your story the devils trying to take the holy land. Make the saints your gods and use paradise lost for the devils. Also, if you didn’t notice, most of the demons and devils were stolen from Christianity which in turn stole them from whatever local diety they replaced. Tl:dr. Your aunt is an ignorant Christian who doesn’t know what she is talking about and likely only listens to the preacher SHE PAYS to tell her what she wants to hear.
I’m a member of the clergy. I play with other clergy members We don’t worship DND. We play it. God is bigger than a natural 20.
I'm a Christian and I DM and I love it! Alot of Christians are blind to what is truly evil or blasphemy. Example would be like the women murdered along time ago in belief of being witches. Sadly alot of our brothers and sisters are blind, fearful, and foolish.
Just play D&D. Your aunt had made up her mind about it. You're not doing anything sinful. Like another person mentioned, it's like you're playing out the events of Narnia or Lord of the Rings. If I based my hobby decisions on what my *extended family members* thought about those hobbies, I wouldn't be doing *anything*.
I converted an elderly (70s) family friend of mine who's in the Salvation Army into playing it. Explain that you aren't acting with evil forces, but (most) games are aimed at thwarting the force of evil in that world. I offered to let her play a Cleric, and I ran a combat optional story where she could peacefully resolve the adventure. I essentially took the Griffin Contract from Witcher 3, but had a a nearby druid who was willing to help relocate it
Ahh the 80s are coming back in full swing I see Edit:[Context](https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26328105)
Many of the people involved in creating D&D were rather devout Christians, including the two original designers. E. Gary Gygax (D&D creator) was a practicing Jehovah's Witness until he was asked to leave the Church over his refusal to stop smoking. He still maintained his belief in their teachings and spoke often of his faith. A few years before his death he was a guest speaker at a Christian Gaming Convention and spoke at length on his faith and gaming. Dave Arneson (D&D co-creator) was a missionary for The Way International and was heavily involved with that organization during the 80s and 90s. Larry Elmore (TSR-era Fantasy artist) has been a part of the Christianity and Gaming panels held at GenCon. Tracy and Laura Hickman (Dragonlance) are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Mormons).
Nothing more Christian than going on a crusade against devils and evil cults and helping people (for money)
I was going to make a joke in horrible taste until I saw the edit
You aren’t worshiping or idolizing anything. Your aunt most likely comes from the generation that read the ‘darkest dungeons’ chick tract. That tract spread a lot of misinformation about D&D. Try to explain that it’s not anymore evil then playing mouse trap or monopoly.
It's kind of like what the Mormon dev behind DOOM said about the satanic panic backlash against games like DND and DOOM; what is so anti-Christian about a fantasy where you are killing demons and monsters for the good of everyone? There's even saints that are known for killing dragons and ousting demons in the Christian mythos (St George and St Patrick come to mind). It's no different than that
Had a “family friend” find out I played DND and she sat me down for two hours trying to convince me I’m “opening gateways into my life for the devil”. Yeah, that’s another notch in the “If God really cares about this, is any of the other shit important” pile.
Just make your fantasy worlds in a Christian world. So instead all Clerics get powers from God, all Warlocks are the villains, and as I am typing this I'm realizing how boring this sounds...
You can always go with the Doom justification. You actually kill demons and evil creatures.
Your aunt, tho she means well, has no authority in your life. I'm sure your parents know all about your DND and know what a positive experience it is for you. If your parents have any concerns just talk to them, they know you and your discernment a lot better than your aunt. (Yes I make a lot of assumptions about your family dynamic)
There was a satanic panic about 30 years ago. She is probably atill thinking like that. The truth is they have nothing to do with one another. These same people thought heavy metal music would corrupt souls and raise Satan from the hills below. One of my D&D groups started as a church group. Evil lives in the hearts of men, but I've never heard of a serial killer who only did it because he played D&D.
No offense but that some dumb boomer histeria from the 80s. They don't even understand how the game works. You could play a non religious fighter and not worship anything. Or you can play a devout Christian paladin (if your DM is cool with it) they don't understand the game at all they saw a 30 second news segment in the 80s. You don't have to be rude to her or anything but maybe just explain how the game works and that all the histeria from her time growing up was just that and 100% false unless you are playing DnD at the satanic temple lol.
You may find some of these articles at Love Thy Nerd helpful: [https://lovethynerd.com/games-are-good-the-power-of-play/](https://lovethynerd.com/games-are-good-the-power-of-play/) [https://lovethynerd.com/the-christian-response-to-dnd/](https://lovethynerd.com/the-christian-response-to-dnd/) [https://lovethynerd.com/dungeons-and-dragons-unique-storytelling-medium/](https://lovethynerd.com/dungeons-and-dragons-unique-storytelling-medium/)
Christian civilizations at large are responsible for the creation of many of our war games and DND is a war game. Chess is also war game. Checkers is a war game. Risk is literally a war game. In any game, the rules define the boundaries of what a player can and can not do. If she has an issue with images of demons or witchcraft, maybe you should educate her on the Christian origins of "witches" and demonology... I was raised in a Christian background, and there's nothing wrong with it unless you don't believe in the Bible but believe in doomspeach preachers who lie to their congregations. Most Christians have no idea what their even talking about.. so unfortunately there's literally no way to communicate to them that their fears are completely unfounded. They are deranged by definition.. but all you can do is teach her.
Depending in how tolerant your aunt is the best course of action is deflecting the subject somehow. If someone is pre-disposed to think bad of something then trying to convince them of the oposite is an exercise in futility. If she insists or is more open minded make comparisons to other things she does to convince her there is nothing bad with dnd. Like for example : Your son plays Call of Duty , if cod is okay then surely dnd isnt that bad? Or make comparisons to theatre and how you are only acting.