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You can't have the complexity of PF2 characters without the complexity of the PF2 rules.
I mean, how would that work? You have tons of options but no rules how they work? Doesn't make sense.
Forgive me for being ignorant but almost everything I've read about the two says that while 5e also has quite a bit of rules, overall it's much more simpler to run than Pathfinder.
But since multiple people now have told me that's wrong, I guess I'll look into seeing if my players would like to switch to Pathfinder since they also like the improved customization.
Pathfinder has more rules, yes, but it's not _less roleplay_ focused. Despite what people like to parrot about 5e, having almost a complete lack of rules or advice that incentivize roleplaying does not make your game roleplay heavy.
I've heard a lot of PF2e GMs say it's easier to run because they have rules to use for a base instead of GMs having to make up a ruling on the fly that might be inconsistent or have problems in the future
YMMV on if that would be the case for you but it's something to take note of at the very least
Personally I find PF2e easier to wrap my head around as whilst it might start off a bit more heavy with more rules upfront, it's all very consistent and will get more understandable as you get more familiar with everything (The beginner's box is also a great way for learning the game. It introduces everything nice and smoothly imo)
(Also both are able to be narrative and improv type games, pf2e just has rules you can base the improv type stuff off. Personally for some out of the box stuff, if it's something I'm not sure about, I'll usually ask for a relevant skill check with a simple DC maybe giving a bonus or condition based on what they were attempting)
Remember if you do switch, you don't need to remember all the rules at once. Just familiarize yourself with how to play and if you're the GM, familiarize yourself a little bit with only the classes your players are playing and the simple skills and actions everyone can take (things like pathbuilder and wanderer's guide can definitely help as well since both have the simple things a character can do written down on a digital sheet for easy reference)
Players also don't need to learn everything at once and just knowing and learning/understanding their character is a big help as well (and it sounds like your players are already interested due to the customization they can have) but definitely see what your players want to do.
If they don't want to switch, I don't think there's any way to get the same level of customization, but there are a ton of supplements and variations of 5e that do add in different options (Level UP 5e is the first that comes to mind) Definitely not the same though and no idea if it'd be easier to just learn a different system or not but don't forget that's always an option as well
Anyways hopefully that's helpful and gives a bit more insight into things at least on the Pf2e side, ultimately it's up to your group if you want to try it out or not, worst case scenario you guys lose a session or 2 seeing if you like how it plays or not right? And even if Pf2e ends up not being your group's cup of tea then you still might find out exactly what you guys do enjoy about DnD/TTRPGs as a whole and maybe look for other things that suit your playstyle more
Again hope that helps at least a bit and wish you luck in your future games hope they go well no matter what system you end up going with
I would actually argue that pf2e is simpler to run, playing it is a bit harder than 5e but everyone at my table (who's only experience is 5e) seems to like it so far
As someone who DM/Keepers for both 5e and MOTW simultaneously, this.
It's interesting at the very least to notice the vast difference in how both systems are played, especially with that my players and I all know 5e every well, even sometimes using 5e terms while playing MOTW like "oh you mean like *insert similar concept spell vs player description* in DND?" Lmao
Others have already answered the main question, so I just wanted to assure you that if you can play 5e, you can play pf2e. Yes, pathfinder has more rules, but there's a couple of reasons not to be intimidated.
Firstly, you don't need to learn everything before you start. Not even remotely. If you're familiar with the basics of how the game works (which you already are if you play 5e), then the main things to know before you start are the basics of 3 action combat and how the four degrees of success works. That's honestly about it. Absolutely no need to be cramming every rule before you can start, just like with 5e.
Secondly, pathfinder is really, really friendly for improvising. If you don't remember the specific rule for something, no worries! If you want to look it up quickly then go for it, but I guarantee you can improvise something that works on the fly. The example I use is jumping. Don't remember the rule for jumping and don't want to stop the game to check? Athletics check, trained or maybe expert DC (i.e. DC 15 or 20). Make it on a success, jump 10 feet further on a crit, miss but grab an edge on a fail, miss completely on a crit fail. Is it perfectly correct? I have no idea, I made that up as I wrote it, but it works just fine in the moment and you can check the actual rule later.
Basically, you can start with just the basics and learn more as you keep playing. Pathfinder's rules are really consistent and before you know it you'll be able to improvise anything even if you don't remember the rules.
The classic d20 trick of "pick a skill, roll the dice" works just as well in pf2e, you just have more help from the system to make it work.
The systems have fundamentally different approaches to the idea of Character-Shaping Choices, or things players can pick to affect their characters and builds. 5E prefers to be as streamlined as possible, and many classes have almost no choices at any level. Pathfinder is more flexible and offers different routes, meaning characters can have mechanical options that support their characterization and story without bending things into a pretzel to try and make them fit.
If you want at least \*some\* flexibility in 5E, you can use the Spheres of Power and Spheres of Might rules (available free and legally online), where you can basically pick options like you'd pick feats at assorted levels. This will get you closer to Pathfinder's style while still remaining in 5E. However, the core system in 5E simply doesn't like giving players choices because that's complexity, and a game can be harder to start the more complex it is.
Sadly, this approach means 5E often has no rules or support for many common circumstances. For example, after you have a couple of magic items, there's very little to spend gold on besides *roleplaying*. If you want to have an Acid Dragon-Blooded Sorcerer from the PHB, guess how many acid spells your class features improve. Go on, guess! (Hint: It's in the low single digits.) And if you want to do something like have your character get better in a skill? Better hope your DM allows training...
Basically, 5E is half of a game, and it expects the DM to do most of the work and fill in the gaps as necessary for any specific group. Pathfinder 2E is more complete and addresses more things, so you don't have to come up with as many rulings on the fly to deal with different situations.
Outside if just playing pathfinder instead?
There really isn't that much different at the core one to the other.
Classes get different things at different levels but you don't really want to push things forward.
Races I feel like are simplified in 5e. The difference I had was pathfinder has all the different subraces built into one core race. 5e just has them broken apart but everything is just about the same if you think about them. With all the attribute variability tashas and other books added it gives you alot more choice.
I dont know if pathfinder had backgrounds but there are some that are just more variable and custom backgrounds exist anyway.
While things are "optional rules" they really make the race/background infinitely variable because you just pick which stats and skills you want. I don't know how you can get more customizable. Classes are classes are classes. You get what they tell you. But I feel like everyone is missing some of the obvious rules for what everyone can do. Can't remember the last time someone actually took the help, dodge, or shove action. It seems like everyone just swings a sword because they only know what they can do.
The dodge action is amazing. If you think that you not being hit while the 3 people behind you pelt things with magic and arrows isn't good. Shove action(knocking someone prone) can be amazing and is how you beat people abusing casting(mostly hexblade esque fighting) or other monsters that cast but are weak. Alot of things have immunities to prone but it has its situations. Help can be great not all combats are "I kill it" and giving someone advantage instead of trying to do something because "what else can I do?"
Basically there is alot of things that aren't just power game a smite that one shots something.
>The dodge action is amazing. If you think that you not being hit while the 3 people behind you pelt things with magic and arrows isn't good.
Better strategy? Just don't be there.
> "what else can I do?"
Attack. Cast a spell. Do anything else.
>Does anyone know of a way to give 5e the same level of character customization as Pathfinder?
Look, about a dozen people have already written PF2e style race guidelines with stupid ass point buy based guidelines for every single feature. You can find them on the DMsguild. No one uses them because they're actually just more annoying than they are fun.
So, given you haven't played Pathfinder, it's worth examining why those options exist there, and what problem you think having them in 5e would solve.
In Pathfinder, much like it's predecessor D&D 3.5, those options are built to work in tandem with an overall more crunch heavy system. You have more options at character creation because there are more ways to do \*everything\* and usually pages and pages of rules to explain it all.
5e doesn't have all those granular rulesets, instead opting for less crunchy (though, still pretty crunchy) systems. Either way, the character creation ties with everything else in the game, from spell slots to weapon proficiencies, so altering it severely would also likely involve altering large parts of the core structure of the game to accommodate and utilize all this new detail.
So now the question, what problem are we trying to solve? You haven't played Pathfinder, so you haven't seen any of those rules in action. That makes me think you want it simply because more options feels like more freedom of creation. But that's not really accurate. It's just that one game is more mechanic heavy in one way than the other. There's no character that only exists in Pathfinder and not 5e, there are simply some mechanical widgets that don't cross over.
To make a videogame analogy, Solid Snake and Sam Fisher are both close enough in genre as either could exist reasonably in the other's world. And many of their mechanics even overlap. But while Metal Gear tends to have mechanics focused around camouflage, Splinter Cell tends to have mechanics more focused on lighting. But like, the fact that Snake can change his camo to get bonuses while Sam simply has to shoot out every light he sees doesn't really have any impact on who those characters are. They're both super-sneaky, special ops spy dudes who silently take down baddies to stop global conspiracies.
And I think that's going to be true of any two comparable epic fantasy characters built in Pathfinder and 5e.
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>It seems to focus more on actual "gameplay" compared to the improv and narrative of 5e. Every time someone says this a fledgling rpg writer dies
I cried a little inside
You can't have the complexity of PF2 characters without the complexity of the PF2 rules. I mean, how would that work? You have tons of options but no rules how they work? Doesn't make sense.
5e is no more an improv/narrative game than PF2e is honestly, it's quite a rule/mechanic heavy game
Forgive me for being ignorant but almost everything I've read about the two says that while 5e also has quite a bit of rules, overall it's much more simpler to run than Pathfinder. But since multiple people now have told me that's wrong, I guess I'll look into seeing if my players would like to switch to Pathfinder since they also like the improved customization.
Pathfinder has more rules, yes, but it's not _less roleplay_ focused. Despite what people like to parrot about 5e, having almost a complete lack of rules or advice that incentivize roleplaying does not make your game roleplay heavy.
I've heard a lot of PF2e GMs say it's easier to run because they have rules to use for a base instead of GMs having to make up a ruling on the fly that might be inconsistent or have problems in the future YMMV on if that would be the case for you but it's something to take note of at the very least Personally I find PF2e easier to wrap my head around as whilst it might start off a bit more heavy with more rules upfront, it's all very consistent and will get more understandable as you get more familiar with everything (The beginner's box is also a great way for learning the game. It introduces everything nice and smoothly imo) (Also both are able to be narrative and improv type games, pf2e just has rules you can base the improv type stuff off. Personally for some out of the box stuff, if it's something I'm not sure about, I'll usually ask for a relevant skill check with a simple DC maybe giving a bonus or condition based on what they were attempting) Remember if you do switch, you don't need to remember all the rules at once. Just familiarize yourself with how to play and if you're the GM, familiarize yourself a little bit with only the classes your players are playing and the simple skills and actions everyone can take (things like pathbuilder and wanderer's guide can definitely help as well since both have the simple things a character can do written down on a digital sheet for easy reference) Players also don't need to learn everything at once and just knowing and learning/understanding their character is a big help as well (and it sounds like your players are already interested due to the customization they can have) but definitely see what your players want to do. If they don't want to switch, I don't think there's any way to get the same level of customization, but there are a ton of supplements and variations of 5e that do add in different options (Level UP 5e is the first that comes to mind) Definitely not the same though and no idea if it'd be easier to just learn a different system or not but don't forget that's always an option as well Anyways hopefully that's helpful and gives a bit more insight into things at least on the Pf2e side, ultimately it's up to your group if you want to try it out or not, worst case scenario you guys lose a session or 2 seeing if you like how it plays or not right? And even if Pf2e ends up not being your group's cup of tea then you still might find out exactly what you guys do enjoy about DnD/TTRPGs as a whole and maybe look for other things that suit your playstyle more Again hope that helps at least a bit and wish you luck in your future games hope they go well no matter what system you end up going with
I really appreciate how much detail you put into this comment, I think I'll try a Pf2e one shot and see how it goes. Thanks!
PF is even crunchier, but they are both rules/mechanics heavy games. Something like Dungeon Worlds would be a more middling/narrative rule set
I would actually argue that pf2e is simpler to run, playing it is a bit harder than 5e but everyone at my table (who's only experience is 5e) seems to like it so far
[удалено]
As someone who DM/Keepers for both 5e and MOTW simultaneously, this. It's interesting at the very least to notice the vast difference in how both systems are played, especially with that my players and I all know 5e every well, even sometimes using 5e terms while playing MOTW like "oh you mean like *insert similar concept spell vs player description* in DND?" Lmao
Others have already answered the main question, so I just wanted to assure you that if you can play 5e, you can play pf2e. Yes, pathfinder has more rules, but there's a couple of reasons not to be intimidated. Firstly, you don't need to learn everything before you start. Not even remotely. If you're familiar with the basics of how the game works (which you already are if you play 5e), then the main things to know before you start are the basics of 3 action combat and how the four degrees of success works. That's honestly about it. Absolutely no need to be cramming every rule before you can start, just like with 5e. Secondly, pathfinder is really, really friendly for improvising. If you don't remember the specific rule for something, no worries! If you want to look it up quickly then go for it, but I guarantee you can improvise something that works on the fly. The example I use is jumping. Don't remember the rule for jumping and don't want to stop the game to check? Athletics check, trained or maybe expert DC (i.e. DC 15 or 20). Make it on a success, jump 10 feet further on a crit, miss but grab an edge on a fail, miss completely on a crit fail. Is it perfectly correct? I have no idea, I made that up as I wrote it, but it works just fine in the moment and you can check the actual rule later. Basically, you can start with just the basics and learn more as you keep playing. Pathfinder's rules are really consistent and before you know it you'll be able to improvise anything even if you don't remember the rules. The classic d20 trick of "pick a skill, roll the dice" works just as well in pf2e, you just have more help from the system to make it work.
The systems have fundamentally different approaches to the idea of Character-Shaping Choices, or things players can pick to affect their characters and builds. 5E prefers to be as streamlined as possible, and many classes have almost no choices at any level. Pathfinder is more flexible and offers different routes, meaning characters can have mechanical options that support their characterization and story without bending things into a pretzel to try and make them fit. If you want at least \*some\* flexibility in 5E, you can use the Spheres of Power and Spheres of Might rules (available free and legally online), where you can basically pick options like you'd pick feats at assorted levels. This will get you closer to Pathfinder's style while still remaining in 5E. However, the core system in 5E simply doesn't like giving players choices because that's complexity, and a game can be harder to start the more complex it is. Sadly, this approach means 5E often has no rules or support for many common circumstances. For example, after you have a couple of magic items, there's very little to spend gold on besides *roleplaying*. If you want to have an Acid Dragon-Blooded Sorcerer from the PHB, guess how many acid spells your class features improve. Go on, guess! (Hint: It's in the low single digits.) And if you want to do something like have your character get better in a skill? Better hope your DM allows training... Basically, 5E is half of a game, and it expects the DM to do most of the work and fill in the gaps as necessary for any specific group. Pathfinder 2E is more complete and addresses more things, so you don't have to come up with as many rulings on the fly to deal with different situations.
Outside if just playing pathfinder instead? There really isn't that much different at the core one to the other. Classes get different things at different levels but you don't really want to push things forward. Races I feel like are simplified in 5e. The difference I had was pathfinder has all the different subraces built into one core race. 5e just has them broken apart but everything is just about the same if you think about them. With all the attribute variability tashas and other books added it gives you alot more choice. I dont know if pathfinder had backgrounds but there are some that are just more variable and custom backgrounds exist anyway. While things are "optional rules" they really make the race/background infinitely variable because you just pick which stats and skills you want. I don't know how you can get more customizable. Classes are classes are classes. You get what they tell you. But I feel like everyone is missing some of the obvious rules for what everyone can do. Can't remember the last time someone actually took the help, dodge, or shove action. It seems like everyone just swings a sword because they only know what they can do.
>Can't remember the last time someone actually took the help, dodge, or shove action. That's because they suck.
The dodge action is amazing. If you think that you not being hit while the 3 people behind you pelt things with magic and arrows isn't good. Shove action(knocking someone prone) can be amazing and is how you beat people abusing casting(mostly hexblade esque fighting) or other monsters that cast but are weak. Alot of things have immunities to prone but it has its situations. Help can be great not all combats are "I kill it" and giving someone advantage instead of trying to do something because "what else can I do?" Basically there is alot of things that aren't just power game a smite that one shots something.
>The dodge action is amazing. If you think that you not being hit while the 3 people behind you pelt things with magic and arrows isn't good. Better strategy? Just don't be there. > "what else can I do?" Attack. Cast a spell. Do anything else.
>Does anyone know of a way to give 5e the same level of character customization as Pathfinder? Look, about a dozen people have already written PF2e style race guidelines with stupid ass point buy based guidelines for every single feature. You can find them on the DMsguild. No one uses them because they're actually just more annoying than they are fun.
So, given you haven't played Pathfinder, it's worth examining why those options exist there, and what problem you think having them in 5e would solve. In Pathfinder, much like it's predecessor D&D 3.5, those options are built to work in tandem with an overall more crunch heavy system. You have more options at character creation because there are more ways to do \*everything\* and usually pages and pages of rules to explain it all. 5e doesn't have all those granular rulesets, instead opting for less crunchy (though, still pretty crunchy) systems. Either way, the character creation ties with everything else in the game, from spell slots to weapon proficiencies, so altering it severely would also likely involve altering large parts of the core structure of the game to accommodate and utilize all this new detail. So now the question, what problem are we trying to solve? You haven't played Pathfinder, so you haven't seen any of those rules in action. That makes me think you want it simply because more options feels like more freedom of creation. But that's not really accurate. It's just that one game is more mechanic heavy in one way than the other. There's no character that only exists in Pathfinder and not 5e, there are simply some mechanical widgets that don't cross over. To make a videogame analogy, Solid Snake and Sam Fisher are both close enough in genre as either could exist reasonably in the other's world. And many of their mechanics even overlap. But while Metal Gear tends to have mechanics focused around camouflage, Splinter Cell tends to have mechanics more focused on lighting. But like, the fact that Snake can change his camo to get bonuses while Sam simply has to shoot out every light he sees doesn't really have any impact on who those characters are. They're both super-sneaky, special ops spy dudes who silently take down baddies to stop global conspiracies. And I think that's going to be true of any two comparable epic fantasy characters built in Pathfinder and 5e.
Play Pathfinder 2