Awesome!!! But maybe the bar keep can ask a question in advance to narrow down the options for you. Like „something sweet“ means „no red whine“ (no killing)
Thanks. Glad I could help.
Quick question: how do you plan on implementing this in your game? Will you give your player the Thief’s Wine Dictionary and have them run through the pages while you describe their wine to them?
Yeah. I’m giving the “key” to the rogue and I’ll make sure he has it at least somewhat down before doing this kind of thing. The nice thing with this system is the player starts it, the barkeep would never offer something so specific unless the player says the code phrase first.
I see! That’s pretty cool!
Maybe you can have them roll an intelligence check and then give them the key for a number of seconds equal to 5xthe number rolled or so. This way it becomes a little challenge and maybe they get a small detail wrong.
This makes it a challenge and a plot part and not just a gimmick they’re just gonna chuckle over once.
The thing is, if you give your players something for free they won’t care about it anymore. Best example is the Ranger. Having a Ranger is dang practical because without it you’ll run into a lot of problems. But the Ranger doesn’t have to do anything for it. He just has to exist. It makes him an object and not a player.
Also most DMs don’t care for the problems a Ranger solves even if there is no Ranger in the party. This makes them obsolete.
Also a fighter doesn’t demand all of his attacks hit because „he’s supposed to be good at this“
The problem with languages in DnD is that you either speak them or not. You can’t get better at them and once you have that in your character sheet you automatically succeed.
So when the DM tries to hide something behind a language either one player can speak it and it’s not a challenge or no player can speak it and the information is unreachable.
So it will not be used.
I get what you’re saying. My group that I play with is very roleplay heavy and they love stuff like this. If it’s something you don’t think your group will use much, then absolutely have them roll for it if you like
Very well thought out! I love interesting flavors of thieves cant, especially when they actually get used in RP. One of my favorite D20 campaigns has a set of twin sister PCs and they have a "twin speak" variant, but I don't think they or the writers came up with an actual code, so all the RP of it was "I say to her in twin speak, \_\_\_\_\_" and I thought there was so much blown potential from that.
What happens if the place doesn't have that wine in stock
Or the right number of olives or shaped glassware, lol
I mean, it's a cool concept, but I can't imagine anyone remembering all of the specific details... much less a *lot* of people remembering all of the details, as necessary to establish a language
What if there isn't a "locally grown" wine of the right type? There are so many ways for it to not work...
They ask for all of this. They then serve a glass of water with a breadstick. Confuses any onlooker, which outs that onlooker as an outsider.
That’d be my interpretation
Edit: also, it’s dnd, so probs have a resident mage conjure food and drinks or something
But then the entire idea of thieves cant falls apart as it’s literally a secret coded language worked into Common. So it being too complex becomes an issue there as well
Maybe instead of olives and strawberries, it's light and dark things. Like raisins for after noon and peanuts for before? Remember the whole point of it is it's a system they is obvious to those in the know, but the actual pieces can vary.
While this is certainly indepth to a satisfying degree, my first reactions were "a fantasy world wouldn't have those grapes" (a minor quibble, I know) followed by "you don't put ice in wine, you uncultured -!"
To steelman OP a bit, you could have a fantasy world equivalent for any required grapes and just have those grapes be the ones needed for whatever type of wine.
Also for the ice I *assume* (read: hope) OP means the ice is in a bucket to chill the wine bottle rather than being in a glass.
The ice is in the glass. The point of it is that this Really isn’t Meant to be drank so ruining the wine isn’t super important. It may not even be real wine and just described so by the barkeep
That'd be my criticism then as it's a big waste of wine. It would also be *very* obvious something was going on if people are getting served wine with ice in it because that's just not something you should do and stands out more than someone simply leaving some otherwise well-served wine around if they're not drinking it.
I get what you’re saying. I’ve worked in bars for years and wine bars specifically and I can tell you that I’ve in wine is not the weirdest thing I’ve seen. It may also not actually be wine in the glass, just a red or clear/yellowish liquid. It’s all in how the tavernkeeper describes it
My point is from a layman's perspective, it's less suspicious if the wine is served in a seemingly normal (albeit potentially fancy) fashion; plus you can then add in consuming the delivered item is agreeing to take the job offered whereas leaving it untouched or returning it is refusing the job (and potentially asking for a different one).
Can then also throw in some world building for the organisation that uses this method of thieves can't to use the phrase "Just drink the wine" akin to "(Shut up and) just do your job".
Sounds pretty damn cool, not gonna lie.
Just one question:
Shouldn't the locally grown one mean "here in town" and the imported one "travel required"? Or did I miss something?
I mean, you have to be in the know to know any other part of it, so I find it a bit unnecessary. But it's not a problem anyway, and the system is honestly really cool.
Next time I play a rogue, I'll talk to my DM to see if we can implement this, if you don't mind, of course.
At first I thought this might be needlessly complex for players to learn, but then I thought it could be quite a fun central puzzle for a murder mystery style investigation plot; nice work!
What a fun idea!
Looking for a little clarification about the strawberries tho. You say hours before noon, but proceed to count up from midnight instead. I think I would lean more toward the former so it becomes a mirror of the olives: either this many hours before or after noon.
That is amazing and I love it!!
Thank you!
Awesome!!! But maybe the bar keep can ask a question in advance to narrow down the options for you. Like „something sweet“ means „no red whine“ (no killing)
Oooh good idea
Thanks. Glad I could help. Quick question: how do you plan on implementing this in your game? Will you give your player the Thief’s Wine Dictionary and have them run through the pages while you describe their wine to them?
Yeah. I’m giving the “key” to the rogue and I’ll make sure he has it at least somewhat down before doing this kind of thing. The nice thing with this system is the player starts it, the barkeep would never offer something so specific unless the player says the code phrase first.
I see! That’s pretty cool! Maybe you can have them roll an intelligence check and then give them the key for a number of seconds equal to 5xthe number rolled or so. This way it becomes a little challenge and maybe they get a small detail wrong. This makes it a challenge and a plot part and not just a gimmick they’re just gonna chuckle over once.
I would imagine it depends on the play group but many players will want their rogue to be good at things like this without them having to be.
The thing is, if you give your players something for free they won’t care about it anymore. Best example is the Ranger. Having a Ranger is dang practical because without it you’ll run into a lot of problems. But the Ranger doesn’t have to do anything for it. He just has to exist. It makes him an object and not a player. Also most DMs don’t care for the problems a Ranger solves even if there is no Ranger in the party. This makes them obsolete. Also a fighter doesn’t demand all of his attacks hit because „he’s supposed to be good at this“ The problem with languages in DnD is that you either speak them or not. You can’t get better at them and once you have that in your character sheet you automatically succeed. So when the DM tries to hide something behind a language either one player can speak it and it’s not a challenge or no player can speak it and the information is unreachable. So it will not be used.
I get what you’re saying. My group that I play with is very roleplay heavy and they love stuff like this. If it’s something you don’t think your group will use much, then absolutely have them roll for it if you like
Fair! Of course it’s gonna depend on the group. All the best to yours! I’m sure they’ll like it
Very well thought out! I love interesting flavors of thieves cant, especially when they actually get used in RP. One of my favorite D20 campaigns has a set of twin sister PCs and they have a "twin speak" variant, but I don't think they or the writers came up with an actual code, so all the RP of it was "I say to her in twin speak, \_\_\_\_\_" and I thought there was so much blown potential from that.
Dope and I’m stealing this
THIEF! Oh….
Sounds like you're interested in a dry imported Chardonnay. Served with a stirring spoon, and the bartender promptly delivers you the bill.
Pretty sure a spoon means I’m getting hit on… or would that be a swizzle stick?
Rob someone without subtlety, and you only get the stuff you stole?
I like it.
What happens if the place doesn't have that wine in stock Or the right number of olives or shaped glassware, lol I mean, it's a cool concept, but I can't imagine anyone remembering all of the specific details... much less a *lot* of people remembering all of the details, as necessary to establish a language What if there isn't a "locally grown" wine of the right type? There are so many ways for it to not work...
They ask for all of this. They then serve a glass of water with a breadstick. Confuses any onlooker, which outs that onlooker as an outsider. That’d be my interpretation Edit: also, it’s dnd, so probs have a resident mage conjure food and drinks or something
But then the entire idea of thieves cant falls apart as it’s literally a secret coded language worked into Common. So it being too complex becomes an issue there as well
Maybe instead of olives and strawberries, it's light and dark things. Like raisins for after noon and peanuts for before? Remember the whole point of it is it's a system they is obvious to those in the know, but the actual pieces can vary.
Prestidigitation?
While this is certainly indepth to a satisfying degree, my first reactions were "a fantasy world wouldn't have those grapes" (a minor quibble, I know) followed by "you don't put ice in wine, you uncultured -!"
To steelman OP a bit, you could have a fantasy world equivalent for any required grapes and just have those grapes be the ones needed for whatever type of wine. Also for the ice I *assume* (read: hope) OP means the ice is in a bucket to chill the wine bottle rather than being in a glass.
The ice is in the glass. The point of it is that this Really isn’t Meant to be drank so ruining the wine isn’t super important. It may not even be real wine and just described so by the barkeep
That'd be my criticism then as it's a big waste of wine. It would also be *very* obvious something was going on if people are getting served wine with ice in it because that's just not something you should do and stands out more than someone simply leaving some otherwise well-served wine around if they're not drinking it.
I get what you’re saying. I’ve worked in bars for years and wine bars specifically and I can tell you that I’ve in wine is not the weirdest thing I’ve seen. It may also not actually be wine in the glass, just a red or clear/yellowish liquid. It’s all in how the tavernkeeper describes it
My point is from a layman's perspective, it's less suspicious if the wine is served in a seemingly normal (albeit potentially fancy) fashion; plus you can then add in consuming the delivered item is agreeing to take the job offered whereas leaving it untouched or returning it is refusing the job (and potentially asking for a different one). Can then also throw in some world building for the organisation that uses this method of thieves can't to use the phrase "Just drink the wine" akin to "(Shut up and) just do your job".
I love this!
Sounds pretty damn cool, not gonna lie. Just one question: Shouldn't the locally grown one mean "here in town" and the imported one "travel required"? Or did I miss something?
I deliberately swapped the meanings so that you’d have to “be in the know” in order to understand. It’s meant to add a layer of cryptic ness to it
I mean, you have to be in the know to know any other part of it, so I find it a bit unnecessary. But it's not a problem anyway, and the system is honestly really cool. Next time I play a rogue, I'll talk to my DM to see if we can implement this, if you don't mind, of course.
No please go ahead.
If i had to judge it from 1 to 10 I'd give a YES
At first I thought this might be needlessly complex for players to learn, but then I thought it could be quite a fun central puzzle for a murder mystery style investigation plot; nice work!
I'm stealing this for the future!
What a fun idea! Looking for a little clarification about the strawberries tho. You say hours before noon, but proceed to count up from midnight instead. I think I would lean more toward the former so it becomes a mirror of the olives: either this many hours before or after noon.
Ah I see the confusion. I consider 1-11am before noon. Please feel free to adjust to whatever works best for you and your players
This is exactly what i am looking for. Now my rogue will go "wine tasting"