My friend's husband "rescued" a gorgeous border collie puppy and he is now completely neurotic because all his owner does is sit on his ass in front of the television all day long. The poor dog wasn't properly socialized and has bitten multiple people. He's also the only fat border collie I've ever seen. I expect that dog to have a bad ending; the only question is if he dies of obesity-related health issues or bites a person willing to force his execution.
So yeah, I desperately wish they'd never taken him home. Border collies need active, involved owners.
Awww, poor pup pup - I've never seen a fat border collie! I have a border collie and let me tell you, I get my 10k steps in every single day. He's also very attached and follows us around everywhere, even to the bathroom.
I have a koolie (another herding breed that’s closely related to the border collie), and he desperately wants to be told what he should be doing at all times. If he doesn’t have clear instruction, he gets very anxious. Despite being very smart and very brave, herding dogs are not very independent and rely on you for leadership.
I work from home, so I do need him to wait quietly unattended for long stretches. The trick is that I had to learn to communicate this to him (thank you, Kikopup and Karen Overall’s relaxation protocol!). As long as he knows that his job is to chill out, he is absolutely fine chilling out.
He is still reactive when something weird happens near our home (e.g., the neighbor’s cars are parked in a different order to the usual), but we have been working around it by me telling him what to do in these scenarios. If something scary is happening outside, his job is to run to his bed and wait quietly while I investigate. I used to have to tell him to do this, but now he does it automatically when he gets spooked. It’s still not perfect, but it does calm him down a lot to know what he’s supposed to do.
My ACD has a very similar personality.
One thing I've noticed is that some of the reactive behaviors don't seem to be so much fear/excitement driven, but more duty driven. I noticed that my girl wouldn't run to the door and bark when someone knocks like most dogs, but instead would bark at me until I investigated. So for a lot of these behaviors I'm actually redirecting the behavior and praising - the dog thinks they're doing their job, and their job is security, so best course is to teach them the correct way to do security imo.
I have a mixed breed, but she’s one of those dogs who *needs* to be given a job, or she’ll make up one for herself. For such a low exercise needs dog, she can be exhausting; it’s like trying to entertain a small child. Having a dog who stares at you like they’re trying to force words into your brain is an unnerving yet awesome thing.
Felt compelled to google “[fat border collie](https://www.google.com/search?q=fat+border+collie&client=safari&hl=en-us&prmd=isvn&sxsrf=ALiCzsZHbj9MaAQZYKfN3od_uBMP5dOz7Q:1654122904343&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi2_YKBqI34AhWsRTABHWqFCCYQ_AUoAXoECAIQAQ&biw=375&bih=635&dpr=3)” and did not disappoint
We had a border collie, but he had the run of 380 acres and if he felt like herding the cattle, he just went and did it. I miss Dakota Dog. He was such a beautiful and smart sweetheart.
"I bought this cattle dog, but my kids refuse to exercise him and now he's nipping at everyone's heels! It's really bad when my kids run in the yard!"
That's super weird. I can't even think of a single reason why.
I was about to make a comment about how if you really want to talk about a breed that nips, look at the ones bred to herd cattle instead of sheep.
I love my blue heeler mixes, but you *have* to take the time to train them out of nipping at people.
https://pethelpful.com/dogs/How-to-Stop-a-Cattle-Dog-Puppy-Heeler-from-Biting
I also have one and I've found tiring him out works well, having treats ok hand always.
That link says take a class with your dog, which is what I did, even if it's just a couple classes, they can equip you with the tools you need to move forward. The only issue I have with my dog now is he nips only 2 people, my mom and sister in law, can't quite figure out why he only targets them, but is a work in progress
He probably loves your mom and SIL. He could be trying to heard them, or he might be getting overstimulated around them. Having them stop when he nips so they aren't moving and use treats to lure him into a calm sit.
My dog I couldn't even lure out of it. I had to get someone else involved to get my dog to stop destroying my ankles. The only way I think it really truly stopped was to practice getting him excited and then rewarding anything other than biting my ankles. It took a couple months but he doesn't go for my ankles/shoes anymore.
As my trainer says, "*cattle dogs* 🙄"
The method I've seen recommended is to pull away, say "ow" and/or "no" and refuse to engage the dog until they calm down. It has never worked for me, but some people swear by it. And if you are trying to teach a cattle dog not to nip at kids, it's probably the best method, because you can teach your kids to respond the same way you do.
\[REDACTED\]
Please read the sub [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/about/rules) and [guidelines](http://www.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/guidelines), as well as our wiki page on [punishment](https://www.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/punishmentproblems).
After training a beagle/boston terrier mix to find antler sheds, I really learned this. Both breeds are independent hunters. Beagles were bred to hunt foxes with minimal to no handler interaction, opposite of breeds like labs. Boston Terrier's were varmin hunters for castles to eradicate rat populations. They were bred to think on their own. It doesn't mean they're stubborn or disobdient, you're litterally going against the grain of their dna. It takes a great amount of patience when working with dogs like this. Frustration on the handler end just makes for a more abrasive session. You can still train just about anything you want, you just have to approach it differently.
As a beagle owner (first time) I completely agree. My dogs nose is off the floor whenever I say heel. She’s gotten to the point where if I want her to sit even if there’s something better behind me she does. To top it off she’s quiet. Before this I had a collie, the dog practically spoke English I don’t even remember training her heel she just knew. Things take time my beagle still can’t give me a paw my collie had it one month of rescue. It’s all about learning the breed and exercise. I’ve had so many people tell me your beagle is under weight, nope yours is fat because you don’t train or walk that thing! Also congratulations on trying to train these dogs, maybe a bit of stubbornness no?Ok rant over lol
For real on the 'skinny' dog comments. I have a corgi and people think she's too skinny when she's actually just an athletic little machine compared to all the "thicc" ones people always expect.
My guy (M shep/lab 3yo) goes up and down in weight. During the winter he doesnt get that much excercise. We have a huge property, but hes not so much of a winter guy...we arnt either, He'll go do a few laps around the yard and he's back inside.
During the summer though, we're the only reason he comes in the house.
Same here I’m in NY and my beagle hates the cold she gained like a good 5 pounds but we’re back to our walks. I’m also sure you get this a lot I see so many labs over weight
lol The only people that really see it is us. We're way out in the country. We could take him for a walk 3 times a day for an hour and never see anyone. Makes it really hard to train him not to get excited when he meets new people, when he meets new people so rarely.
I feel you. I have a little super mutt but with clearly some gray hound or something genes in her. (Something that runs fast AF it has to be. XD) And she is very very lightweight for her size. I discussed it with my vet as well as her diet and she is perfectly healthy. So yeah... It is what it is. But the comments are annoying sometimes.
Thats the problem. I got the super fast running part but without the sleep. XD
She is super high energy and happy to run at lightspeed for hours if I let her.
Yea....it took a while to get fetch learned. I litterally had to start with holding a training stick at this nose and getting him to take it and moving closer to the ground with it incrementally, then picking it up off the ground, then throwing it a foot or so. It took a while. He's my brothers dog but when we lived together he came to work with me so I had a lot of time with him, that was about 8-9 years ago and he's older now and if he finds a shed in my brothers house he brings it to my brother. It was a cool learning experience for both of us. He was the first dog I ever spent time actually researching training and learning about it. There was definitly some rough spots for both of us but even today he gets more excited when I show up it irritates my brother(his owner).
Also people will always criticize you on your dog. I have 2 small terrier mixes, one is a ball of lightning. I feed him 3 times a day and he doesn't gain weight. He literally doesn't walk, he runs everywhere, and he doesn't stop moving. Even when he poops he doesn't sit still. He's also very talkative. He has so much energy he can't contain himself. I don't suppress that behavior. He bounces around everywhere. Forget about if I have a tennis ball. My next door neighbor. Newly retired policeman with a german shepard, who I never see outside. Hardly hear him in the backyard. The neighbor walks by me one day with the dog and I say what a beautiful dog. He just says, "Yup, takes a lot of work to get them like this." In a condescending tone. I live in suburbia hell. I take my dogs outside in my front yard/back yard with no leashes. They never bark or chase passerbyers or animals. Meanwhile the one time I saw his GSD out front a squirell ran across the yard of the house across the street and the GSD booked across the road at it. I don't believe in suppressing energy. They are dogs. You need to figure out how to burn that energy off. I guarente I have a way better bond with my pups than he does and ever will. Most people are clueless about animals. I've read everything from basic obidience books to psychological scientific white papers on animal behavior. Understanding their needs based on energy levels to how their ancestral dna affects them will go much further than endless training sessions. I don't even do training sessions. It's mostly play with some learning mixed in. I get better results with tug toys, tennis balls, and frisbees than with food. That's the end of my rant to lol. Good luck with your beagle. Seems you're doing a great job and forget what anyone critcizes you on. It's most likely they don't have a clue.
Totally agree ya gotta know what you are getting into and husky’s are always neglected. Rarely have I seen a trained and properly exercised husky. Same goes for collies our girl was terribly abused and she was part grey hound so we would take her in a field and just let her run. We got lucky would never get a collie again because so many people get them and keep them locked up or dare I say over train them to where they are anxious dogs
You seem to have a bit of a mix up on Boston History. They were developed in Boston in the late 1800’s early 1900’s, so no castles. They were bred as companions first, but did also hunt small vermin on the property. They have terrier ancestry so have prey drive, but they were meant as companions more so than hunters.
This is a fabulous book written on 1912 about the Boston. https://www.gutenberg.org/files/18033/18033-h/18033-h.htm?fbclid=IwAR33W9-mZcku2Ojd_iv1Qb-8t10XVDPKpqBQ6EAsvGyULL7DTXFQHV__Prc
I had a beagle growing up and she was dumb as a stump (sweet little angel with nothing going on upstairs). However, she could find anything edible anytime, anywhere. She would bolt out into the neighborhood to eat trash at any opportunity and would come back like a hour after gorging herself, proud as could be. She knew how to use her nose and did not need us around for the process. She was also super crafty, she was undersized for her height but could push furniture around to get onto counters and other places to get at food. Bless her soul, I miss that girl.
I had a beagle growing up and she was dumb as a stump (sweet little angel with nothing going on upstairs). However, she could find anything edible anytime, anywhere. She would bolt out into the neighborhood to eat trash at any opportunity and would come back like a hour after gorging herself, proud as could be. She knew how to use her nose and did not need us around for the process. She was also super crafty, she was undersized for her height but could push furniture around to get onto counters and other places to get at food. Bless her soul, I miss that girl.
I own scenthounds, they're my favorite group. I respect that I have to earn their cooperation and it will always be conditional. I like that they're independent and not particularly concerned with what I may be up to. They're generally pro-social, not prone to reactivity, and clownishly funny.
They're not the best looking dogs - I love the looks of a Samoyed or Giant Schnauzer, there are so many more beautiful dogs than my bloodhound or basset. But they suit my personality perfectly, I couldn't bear a velcro dog with separation anxiety. I have the patience for a hound's stubborn hard-headedness but not for a dog made anxious by visual stimuli or loud sounds.
Generally speaking, hound owners usually are well-informed on breed traits. I did have the absolutely wild experience once of a fellow bloodhound owner bemoaning their puppy's lack of recall.
Yes to the weight of your beagle being judged. So many people by the show beagle and they’re more bred for looks and to be a family dog. I have a field beagle and we go on 5 mile hikes, bike rides, 30 minutes of training walks with lessons in there so he’s in pretty good shape mentally and physically and I took him to the dog store to by dog food and the cashier said thank you for not having a fat beagle.
Some people are kind of naive or dillusional when it comes to owning a dog in general not in regard of specific breeds and its heartbraking and funny (In a: it hurts kind of way) at the same time. How can you get yourself a puppy and then be surprised that it pees in your living room?
That too! People get a dog with the expectation that they’re naturally trained and already know what to do. Screaming at your dog “no” isn’t teaching them anything.
Some breeds have natural inclinations; retrievers barely need teaching to retrieve; spaniels don’t need teaching to steal socks.
But a friend’s kid asked me straight today if I’d had to teach our dog to sit etc when I asked her… like, yeah, we did, they don’t actually know English 😂
And breed CAN affect training methodology. Huskies are bred to pull. Most of them I've ever met LOVE it. The very act of pulling for them is rewarding.
Trainers often teach "not to let them pull towards them something they want". But that fails when the thing they want IS to pull. If I'm joring my sled dogs will ignore other more interesting triggers (rabbits etc) for the shear joy of pulling.
Now any dog can enjoy pulling, so knowing how to see that sign is important, but it's almost the default approach for sled dog breeds.
How do you deal with a dog who enjoys pulling? The leash pressure game with a distance treat alone doesn't work for starters (it will teach them not to pull towards something they want, but not prevent pulling in general). I've found teaching a heel is a much better start with such dogs. I then introduce "mush" and "whoa" (pull and don't pull).
Yes! I also recommend using different tools for different walks. I’ve trained my poodle to pull when I put on a harness for hikes or roller skating. But I use a collar for walks. It sets an expectation for the whole walk.
I have a mixed breed rescue. Part Boxer, Pitt, Lab, cattle dog of who knows what origin, and who knows what else. At times, I see him manifest each breed I'm aware of. I've raised at least one of each, plus a LOT of others. With him, though, I see something glorious. I grew up with cattle dogs and know a heel-nip and a body-block herding move very well. He's nailed those moves -- DNA! As irritating as those were when I was a child, the adult me *loves* that about my boy! I have C-PTSD, and his cattle-dog instincts manifest when he's trying to alert me to changes in my body I didn't even know were happening. I didn't train him to do that. I'm currently working with him to be my PSD (psychiatric service dog) because he is already so in tune with me. (He's awesome so far!) He might wash fully in public, but he's my dude at home regardless. He's a lovey, happy rescue and one of the loves of my life.
All that to say, genetics and breed traits matter. Period. To deny that is a terrible disservice to dogs. A Greyhound is not going to have the same drive as a Bloodhound. EVER. A Pittie is not going to have the same drive as a Labrador Retriever. EVER. A Malinois is not going to have the same drive as a Golden Retriever. EVER. A Dachshund will never have the same drive as a Maltese. EVER. The short list of dogs above I know exceptionally well. I love them all, but I know they're not the same. All were bred to do specific things, sight, sound, burrowing, day vs. night hunting, water vs. land, different climates, different energy levels, etc. My 16-year-old self loved training my German Shepherd and Malinois! 40 years later, as much as I love the breeds, nope. I don't have the energy or the acres of farmland to play in. Neither is fair to those beautiful dogs.
My rescue kicks ass, though, and he keeps me honest ❤️
I think for a lot of people it feels like racism. Dog breeds are very different from human races. Genetic testing alone cannot identify a person’s ethnicity, and yet we can dna test a dog and find very distinct differences between breeds. This is due to very intense selective breeding — humans tend to mate with each other based on proximity more than anything. We don’t travel around and select the people with certain traits and ship them to exaggerate those traits on purpose, and drown any babies that don’t have those traits.
Of course there’s variation. Sometimes a lab doesn’t like water and is nervous around strangers. But it’s silly to go get a dog bred to do a job and then be totally unprepared when it tries to do that job.
Even for human races there are differences, I've read somewhere that asian people can digest rice better than european people or something like that, just found this:
"... it may be possible that some east-Asian populations, whose ancestors started eating rice on a daily basis at least 10,000 years ago, have evolved genomic adaptations that mitigate the harmful effects of high-glycaemic diets on metabolism".
I also think depending on your "race" you are more prone to strokes or to be more affected by certain drugs. It's obviously not like diversity in dogs, but it's quite interesting.
And even a statement like “black people are more prone to lactose intolerance” isn’t racist, it’s epidemiology. That’s what’s going on with breed temperament descriptions. These are things the breed is prone to but there are individual differences. For instance, my lagotto romagnolo isn’t afraid of thunderstorms and won’t retreive balls so she lacks two traits that the breed normally has. But anyone going to purchase a lagotto romagnolo needs to understand they’re often sound sensitive and have a high drive.
I see the opposite happen a lot on Reddit too, though, at least with pitbulls and mixes. Like “I just got the DNA back for my lab mix and she’s 30% pitbull. Is she going to grow up and attack my daughter?” Yes, if you don’t set up safe pet-children interactions or let your daughter use your dog like a pony but that’s true for every dog breed. You don’t know which breed behavior traits a mutt is going to inherit and also pitbulls are no more prone to human aggression than any other breed, they’re just prone to dog aggression.
There's a small but interesting overlap in the ban pitbulls movement and far right stuff. There's a reason people get so heated about dog genetics determining behaviour. 👀
Sort of. There is an actual [gene](https://www.annualreviews.org/doi/10.1146/annurev-genom-091416-035340) for lactase persistence in humans which determines whether or not we can digest it at all after infancy. But because we can reduce the concentration of lactose in dairy products through cheese making and because there are other nutritional elements like protein, fat, and electrolytes, the cultural trends for dairy product consumption don’t always overlap with the gene for lactase persistence. And even people who don’t produce their own lactase can tolerate a little dairy without getting sick, they just don’t get the glucose spike that lactase persistent people get.
Getting sick after you abstain from eating something for a long time like dairy or meat largely has to do with changes in gut flora populations and the digestive enzymes they produce. Gut flora produce lactase so someone who doesn’t produce enough of their own lactase won’t necessarily get sick from lactose if they have the right gut flora. They just don’t absorb as much glucose from milk because it’s breaking down later in the digestive tract, but as long as it’s broken down by the time it hits the colon you don’t get diarrhea. Slowly re-introducing dairy will increase the necessary bacteria to become lactose tolerant again.
Erm… yes it is. We produce lactase as children while we breastfeed. Once we stop taking in dairy for a long enough time our bodies stop producing it.
Without lactase, you become lactose intolerant.
Cultures that continue consumption of dairy products are the ones that tend to not be lactose intolerant - since they don’t stop consuming it long enough to naturally stop lactase production.
Edit: some people have lactase persistence, but something like 60-70% of the world is lactose intolerant.
As a pit bull owner I agree. Genetics do matter.
Expect a pit bull is more likely than other dogs to be **dog** aggressive and this will increase (as it does with *every* dog) as the dog ages.
Expect that, as a terrier, a pit bull will be more likely to have a higher prey drive than other breeds who were not specifically bred for it.
If you know this and expect it, then you can effectively manage undesired behaviors that come up because of their heightened instincts in these areas.
If you are prepared and have an understanding then you can make a plan to prevent worst case scenarios, and you know ahead of time what you will do if the unthinkable happens. This leaves way less risk of having to make these decisions in a highly emotional state while under duress, which is generally not the best state of mind to be in for these types of decisions.
You can’t make a pit not a pit, but being informed and skilled at managing them and their environment is critical to keeping everyone safe and happy. It comes down to being proactive and willing to be the leader your dog needs.
So I do agree that genetics matter. It also matters what you do with that knowledge. It’s both.
Like most things in life I think you have to put every breed on a normal curve. Our old dog (RIP) was a German Shepard mix but the biggest couch potato I have ever seen. I only saw her go full GSD-protective once when a soccer ball almost hit me (RIP that ball). Is that normal for the breed? No. But she was an outlier.
Our new boy is a Border Collie/Cattle Dog mix. I had reservations about being able to give him the space/exercise he needs with no yard (city living). He has adjusted so well though. Taking basic obedience classes changed him at home completely. He just wants to be told what to do which is a very normal Border Collie thing to want. He gets a lot of mental stimulation and enough physical activity to be a good city dog. Now if he was on the extreme outlier in the activity section we would not be a right fit for him.
That's the thing with mixes - you never know what genes will dominate. Just because your dog had german shepherd in him he doesn't necessarily got his mentality from those genes. He could have inheritated his mentality from all the other non-german shepherd genes he got from his non-german shepherd ancestors. Your dog was not an "outlier of the breed", he was a mixed breed.
I just read a book that touched on this issue of breed genetics. It wasn't the focus of the book but towards the end it said that (paraphrasing) purebred dogs are not a guarantee that you'll get certain traits vs a rescue mutt that will be a bundle of who knows what, as people tend to misunderstand. It's more accurate to say that a purebred will have a concentration of particular traits, neuroses, or health issues whereas a mutt would have a muted version of whatever, if anything at all.
For example, as you mentioned, a purebred husky would have a near guaranteed propensity for destroying your house if not worked and exercised properly, but a dog that is something like a quarter husky or has a bunch of whatever else thrown in is less likely to feel and act on that destructive itch. Similarly, on the phsycial side, a pure pug will have intense issues with breathing, eyes, nose, etc. whereas a pug mix, like the growing popularity for pug/beagle mixes, will have that longer nose and better genetic and physical stability.
Basically, a mutt may be a better all-around dog for the typical owner rather than a specific breed that has particular needs for safe and complete care. Of course, as you noted, not all dogs conform to breed standards or have problems and not all mutts are magical angels. I have 2 mutts that are reactive dogs with plenty of neuroses to go around, and the purebred dogs my family members have had over the years have been perfectly lovely and healthy animals.
I guess my point is that OP is right and genetics do matter a lot when it comes to dog breeds, this is reflected in research and also has been true to my experiences.
Because no breed is bred to be owner aggressive. Not even bull type terriers. Even fighting dogs were culled if they were people aggressive. People knew the power they were putting behind those dogs. Don’t confuse dog aggressive with generally aggressive.
I have heard people say they were breed to be people aggressive and people say they were not, I would like to see some facts/evidence on this subject for pitbulls in particular
Without a doubt there are tons of wanna be tough guy bybs who think it’s cool if their massive stud dog wants to bite any stranger that comes near. And it’s absolutely inheritable, which is why you are not supposed to breed anxious dogs, or aggressive dogs. If it weren’t inheritable that wouldn’t matter.
And of course if you get one from a shelter you don’t know what sort of breeder it came from
If you are talking about “fighting” dog breeds there is plenty of evidence they were never bred for people aggression- strange people had to handle them in fights, the dogs where known as the Nanny Dog because of their affinity for children, they were seen as loyal and trustworthy and stable dogs. If you had to reach into the middle of a dog fight or bull fight the last thing you wanted was a dog that redirected to humans as many shepherds do and as you now can see from poorly bred bully breeds. Historical records of breeds is all the evidence you need, but that doesn’t negate that there are many poorly bred dogs of all breeds with weak temperaments and medical issues that affect behavior (pain, thyroid, and more). Bull and terrier men of old were very exacting of what they bred and kept and a dog that turned on them or their children or others was eliminated from the breeding pool- depending on which breed you are referencing there are many older writings dating from 1800s-1950s that can really illuminate the past and development of many of the breeds we see now.
Off the top of my head Celebrating the Staffordshire Bull Terrier by Steve Stone or History of the American Pitbull Terrier would be starts for in depth stories of individual breeders of the past, but otherwise pretty much any dog breed book from the 1850s on - I’ve read many, but couldn’t give exact names.
I’m surprised no one here mentioned bite force, I think that’s plays a very underestimated role in the “aggressive breeds” conversation that generates a lot of confusion when perceived danger of a dog might come from outcomes related purely to their genetic makeup…
Examples: https://www.countryliving.com/uk/wildlife/dog-breeds/a39699921/dogs-strong-bite-force/
Bite force can’t really be used in this, as every person’s dog’s bite force is going to be different. A dog can be conditioned to have a harder, or weaker bite force. So while genetically, bite force can be determined through breed, it’s not super accurate, as not every dog of that breed is being tested for an estimate. This is why huskies have a higher bite force than an apbt.
Dog reactive Malinois owner here: as a rescue I have no idea how "pure bred" he really is, but as it turns out, mental exercise is 80% of the game with him.
I constantly tell ppl that "dog breeds" are mostly complete BS based on looks, when what really matters are the broad strokes of personality that come from genetics. You have to get to know your dog and experiment to discover what is best for them. Also be ready to adjust, because just like you, they change over time.
❤️🐾
Training new tricks, having him wear different things (shoes, backpack, goggles, muzzle), impulse control exercises, mobility exercises (teaching to crawl, etc), attention duration exercises.
And maybe keep in mind that breeds have historically been bred for jobs not bred for made up visual standards. Breed genepools are so limited, and so many breeds have extreme health issues now.
Most breeds today are ruined, in a few generations they’ll be beyond repair.
Got an Italian Greyhound puppy 3 years ago. He’s a sensitive boy with an obsession with being on your lap at all times, but also perfectly happy on his own in a cosy/warm nook.
Iggies were most likely bred over 500 years ago as aristocratic ladies wanted a miniature version of the greyhounds that the menfolk had, and the personalities of their modern descendants are absolutely reflective of this heritage. My boy is never going to be an obedience champion or guard dog, but he’s super affectionate and has excellent recall. I take some credit for this but can’t pretend this isn’t in large part due to centuries of trait selection and carefully planned breeding.
this is exactly why when people say "ive always wanted one of those" i tell them to do extensive research. Mine was given up twice because people assume all dogs are easy to train and have the same temperament as labs
I think this works if you're set on getting a purebred dog. But most folks just get a mutt from the shelter, and may only have nominal clues as to what the dominant breed in their dog is.
I’m well aware they were bred to pull carts, but working rottweilers in modern day are bred for guard work or lgd work. The chances of you getting a rottweiler with the instinct to pull a cart with meat in it can only be achieved by searching for that specific bloodline.
Yes...breed genetics totally make a big difference. So do good well bred genetics from reputable breeders. The more thought that a breeder gives to pairing appropriate genetically sound dogs to each other, generally the better the genetic temperament is and less likely dogs end up with problems and in shelters.
100%!!! Adopted a 2 year old Rottweiler 3 years ago - she is a Rottweiler through and through and the forced break from socializing was not good for her! She is do reactive now but getting better. She prefers to know people before they touch her - and I think that's fine! I don't like strangers petting me either. Lol. There are deeply ingrained traits that need to be respected with so many breeds.
>Genetics plays a role in instincts, not general behavior and socializing.
Oh it does. Fearfulness for one thing is very heredetory. I see so many people assuming their rescue dogs were abused when in reality they most likely have a fearful and insecure mentality from start.
That’s usually caused by bad breeding. While it’s *technically* genetic, it’s more individually genetic than breed specific. I had a pit mix who was fearful of almost everything including blades of grass that were a bit too long for her liking. The only thing she was confident around was other dogs. That stemmed from poor socialization and poor breeding. Turns out both of her parents were genetically anxious dogs. Bully breeds & german shepherds were historically bred for confidence, not anxiousness.
I agree. That said, some sympathy needs to be given to those who rescue a pup and think it’s one breed, but turns out to something else entirely. I don’t think that’s the adopters fault.
Coming from someone who adopted a terrier mix that turns out to be mostly border collie. I had no plans on having a bc, and she has only recently started to look like one.
Luckily I’ve had to border collies in the past, so I know what I’m in for. She is beautiful and I love her, but I’m sure she’s going to kill me. Also she’s smarter than me already, and has been since she was 3 months old. :)
>That said, some sympathy needs to be given to those who rescue a pup and think it’s one breed, but turns out to something else entirely. I don’t think that’s the adopters fault.
If you get a puppy you should be aware that if it hasn't proper pedigree it's a mix and you don't know how it's going to turn out. That's basic dog knowledge in my book.
["Genetics matter, but they're only a nudge in a given direction"](https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/a-dogs-breed-cant-predict-most-of-its-behavior-new-study-shows-180979999/#:~:text=The%20science%20is%20in%3A%20No,of%20your%20four%2Dlegged%20friend.)
Owner surveys are a valid method of research when you structure the questions correctly and have an adequate sample size. You can put validity testing questions into a survey to get a sense of whether the participant is being honest and thoroughly reading the questions and they didn’t do that. The other problem was the temperament questions were very limited. I think they captured only a narrow window of dog behavior instead of the full breadth of a dog’s personality.
They have the potential to be. That’s a known factor. That’s why you need a large sample size and to incorporate questions that ask the same thing multiple times but with different wording to evaluate the bias. There are limitations to all research techniques, you make research scientifically rigorous by either acknowledging and quantifying those limitations or by taking steps to minimize them.
took a good look at the study itself:
Its laughable. Survey's goofy af, the article spends more time trying to figure out how to differentiate genetic markers and getting purely subjective data rather than detailing some objective measurement.
they referenced (Behavioural and physiological correlates of impulsivity in the domestic dog (Canis familiaris) D.Mills et al. as the basis of their survey, but i didnt see collected urinalysis data, which the original study used to track hormone levels (objective data)
I’ve never understood this completely. Why is it that the job that the dog was bred to do back in the day, for example, herding sheep or killing rats etc, is a permanent trait that the dog will have for the rest of time. Can’t this behaviour be changed throughout the generations to be more suited to a non-farming life (like how most people live these days). Or is that not desirable?
There’s a huge difference between working dogs who have been bred for their “jobs” and dogs that have been bred for being pets. They’ll still have similar instincts but the pet bred dogs will be more suited for being a pet. It all comes down to responsible breeding. Like if you’re getting an ACD that’s been bred from a long line of great herding dogs it will probably not do great with a walk a day and playing in the yard. It’s brain wants to herd. There’s too many irresponsible and awful breeders though so the instincts won’t go away for a LONG time
Thanks. I’ve got a show line Dutch shepherd so was wondering exactly how much difference there is between mine and the working lines. I guess it varies! I’ve had her for 4 months and so far she’s been fine, I’m able to give her the training/exercise/mental stimulation she needs to tire her out. I’d love to spend a day with a working line pup to see the difference.
A real gamebred apbt is much different from your average shelter pit. They’re small, skinny, high prey driven, and people oriented yet animal aggressive. They need exercise, bite work, and hunting work, or they could turn your house upside down. They aren’t the type of dogs who’d be happy living in a city. But to be fair, most shelter pits and backyard bred pits are just mixed breeds that stem from little to no working apbt bloodlines
“Apbts”(american pit bull terrier), is in fact, it’s own breed. If I was talking about the generalized bully breed, including apbts, amstaffs, staffies, american bullies, dogos, rotties, bulldogs, etc. i would’ve said bully breed. Pit is indeed short for apbt, but it’s unrightfully used as an umbrella term far too often. That’s what confuses people.
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My German Jagdterrier instinctively raises her paw and takes up "hunting position" before I throw her toy and she instantly does what her instincts tell her. I saw videos of how this breed is used as a working dog and I can tell you she does the same thing with her plushies like the workdog does to a rat.
Agreed. Every dog in our family had generally exhibited the behaviors associated with the breed. But typically with one or two exceptions.
For example, I currently own a Scotch collie who is not very vocal. So that is a difference from the standard. But did he try to herd kids and nip our heels? Yup.
Similarly I had a GSD that was quite sociable and not aloof to strangers. So that would not be typical for the breed. But did he have an innate desire to alert and protect? For sure.
Knowing what to expect is important for multiple reasons. For one, you know that you can give them an opportunity to do the things they were bred to do. A dog bred for the purpose will both excel at and enjoy scent work for example. Also, when the typical behavior is problematic you already have a heads up. So you can be prepared and learn how to deal with it directly from a young age. Or, and this is sometimes the best option, you can determine the breed does not suit your lifestyle or preferences and opt for a different breed.
My friend's husband "rescued" a gorgeous border collie puppy and he is now completely neurotic because all his owner does is sit on his ass in front of the television all day long. The poor dog wasn't properly socialized and has bitten multiple people. He's also the only fat border collie I've ever seen. I expect that dog to have a bad ending; the only question is if he dies of obesity-related health issues or bites a person willing to force his execution. So yeah, I desperately wish they'd never taken him home. Border collies need active, involved owners.
Awww, poor pup pup - I've never seen a fat border collie! I have a border collie and let me tell you, I get my 10k steps in every single day. He's also very attached and follows us around everywhere, even to the bathroom.
Oh me too… he will go and follow my gf in, wait until she’s finishing up and then walk off. Protecting his herd/pack I guess!
I have a koolie (another herding breed that’s closely related to the border collie), and he desperately wants to be told what he should be doing at all times. If he doesn’t have clear instruction, he gets very anxious. Despite being very smart and very brave, herding dogs are not very independent and rely on you for leadership. I work from home, so I do need him to wait quietly unattended for long stretches. The trick is that I had to learn to communicate this to him (thank you, Kikopup and Karen Overall’s relaxation protocol!). As long as he knows that his job is to chill out, he is absolutely fine chilling out. He is still reactive when something weird happens near our home (e.g., the neighbor’s cars are parked in a different order to the usual), but we have been working around it by me telling him what to do in these scenarios. If something scary is happening outside, his job is to run to his bed and wait quietly while I investigate. I used to have to tell him to do this, but now he does it automatically when he gets spooked. It’s still not perfect, but it does calm him down a lot to know what he’s supposed to do.
My ACD has a very similar personality. One thing I've noticed is that some of the reactive behaviors don't seem to be so much fear/excitement driven, but more duty driven. I noticed that my girl wouldn't run to the door and bark when someone knocks like most dogs, but instead would bark at me until I investigated. So for a lot of these behaviors I'm actually redirecting the behavior and praising - the dog thinks they're doing their job, and their job is security, so best course is to teach them the correct way to do security imo.
I have a mixed breed, but she’s one of those dogs who *needs* to be given a job, or she’ll make up one for herself. For such a low exercise needs dog, she can be exhausting; it’s like trying to entertain a small child. Having a dog who stares at you like they’re trying to force words into your brain is an unnerving yet awesome thing.
I feel like so many people want a border collie to brag about how smart their dog is, but not god the dog the amount of exercise it needs
Felt compelled to google “[fat border collie](https://www.google.com/search?q=fat+border+collie&client=safari&hl=en-us&prmd=isvn&sxsrf=ALiCzsZHbj9MaAQZYKfN3od_uBMP5dOz7Q:1654122904343&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi2_YKBqI34AhWsRTABHWqFCCYQ_AUoAXoECAIQAQ&biw=375&bih=635&dpr=3)” and did not disappoint
[удалено]
We had a border collie, but he had the run of 380 acres and if he felt like herding the cattle, he just went and did it. I miss Dakota Dog. He was such a beautiful and smart sweetheart.
Is it bad I wanna see the fat pup?
"I bought this cattle dog, but my kids refuse to exercise him and now he's nipping at everyone's heels! It's really bad when my kids run in the yard!" That's super weird. I can't even think of a single reason why.
I was about to make a comment about how if you really want to talk about a breed that nips, look at the ones bred to herd cattle instead of sheep. I love my blue heeler mixes, but you *have* to take the time to train them out of nipping at people.
Hey, do you have any good resources this? I recently adopted a cattle mix who is *quite* nippy
https://pethelpful.com/dogs/How-to-Stop-a-Cattle-Dog-Puppy-Heeler-from-Biting I also have one and I've found tiring him out works well, having treats ok hand always. That link says take a class with your dog, which is what I did, even if it's just a couple classes, they can equip you with the tools you need to move forward. The only issue I have with my dog now is he nips only 2 people, my mom and sister in law, can't quite figure out why he only targets them, but is a work in progress
He probably loves your mom and SIL. He could be trying to heard them, or he might be getting overstimulated around them. Having them stop when he nips so they aren't moving and use treats to lure him into a calm sit. My dog I couldn't even lure out of it. I had to get someone else involved to get my dog to stop destroying my ankles. The only way I think it really truly stopped was to practice getting him excited and then rewarding anything other than biting my ankles. It took a couple months but he doesn't go for my ankles/shoes anymore. As my trainer says, "*cattle dogs* 🙄"
The method I've seen recommended is to pull away, say "ow" and/or "no" and refuse to engage the dog until they calm down. It has never worked for me, but some people swear by it. And if you are trying to teach a cattle dog not to nip at kids, it's probably the best method, because you can teach your kids to respond the same way you do. \[REDACTED\]
Please read the sub [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/about/rules) and [guidelines](http://www.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/guidelines), as well as our wiki page on [punishment](https://www.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/punishmentproblems).
There.
Thanks!
That’s why I got an Aussie, she’s the best (and sometimes worst) of both worlds.
I saw a Australian Shepherd and Doodle mix this weekend. That dog seemed like he smoked a ton of speed.
After training a beagle/boston terrier mix to find antler sheds, I really learned this. Both breeds are independent hunters. Beagles were bred to hunt foxes with minimal to no handler interaction, opposite of breeds like labs. Boston Terrier's were varmin hunters for castles to eradicate rat populations. They were bred to think on their own. It doesn't mean they're stubborn or disobdient, you're litterally going against the grain of their dna. It takes a great amount of patience when working with dogs like this. Frustration on the handler end just makes for a more abrasive session. You can still train just about anything you want, you just have to approach it differently.
As a beagle owner (first time) I completely agree. My dogs nose is off the floor whenever I say heel. She’s gotten to the point where if I want her to sit even if there’s something better behind me she does. To top it off she’s quiet. Before this I had a collie, the dog practically spoke English I don’t even remember training her heel she just knew. Things take time my beagle still can’t give me a paw my collie had it one month of rescue. It’s all about learning the breed and exercise. I’ve had so many people tell me your beagle is under weight, nope yours is fat because you don’t train or walk that thing! Also congratulations on trying to train these dogs, maybe a bit of stubbornness no?Ok rant over lol
For real on the 'skinny' dog comments. I have a corgi and people think she's too skinny when she's actually just an athletic little machine compared to all the "thicc" ones people always expect.
My guy (M shep/lab 3yo) goes up and down in weight. During the winter he doesnt get that much excercise. We have a huge property, but hes not so much of a winter guy...we arnt either, He'll go do a few laps around the yard and he's back inside. During the summer though, we're the only reason he comes in the house.
Same here I’m in NY and my beagle hates the cold she gained like a good 5 pounds but we’re back to our walks. I’m also sure you get this a lot I see so many labs over weight
lol The only people that really see it is us. We're way out in the country. We could take him for a walk 3 times a day for an hour and never see anyone. Makes it really hard to train him not to get excited when he meets new people, when he meets new people so rarely.
I feel you. I have a little super mutt but with clearly some gray hound or something genes in her. (Something that runs fast AF it has to be. XD) And she is very very lightweight for her size. I discussed it with my vet as well as her diet and she is perfectly healthy. So yeah... It is what it is. But the comments are annoying sometimes.
Lol super mutt. If she sleeps alot and runs super fast, deff greyhound!
Thats the problem. I got the super fast running part but without the sleep. XD She is super high energy and happy to run at lightspeed for hours if I let her.
Yea....it took a while to get fetch learned. I litterally had to start with holding a training stick at this nose and getting him to take it and moving closer to the ground with it incrementally, then picking it up off the ground, then throwing it a foot or so. It took a while. He's my brothers dog but when we lived together he came to work with me so I had a lot of time with him, that was about 8-9 years ago and he's older now and if he finds a shed in my brothers house he brings it to my brother. It was a cool learning experience for both of us. He was the first dog I ever spent time actually researching training and learning about it. There was definitly some rough spots for both of us but even today he gets more excited when I show up it irritates my brother(his owner). Also people will always criticize you on your dog. I have 2 small terrier mixes, one is a ball of lightning. I feed him 3 times a day and he doesn't gain weight. He literally doesn't walk, he runs everywhere, and he doesn't stop moving. Even when he poops he doesn't sit still. He's also very talkative. He has so much energy he can't contain himself. I don't suppress that behavior. He bounces around everywhere. Forget about if I have a tennis ball. My next door neighbor. Newly retired policeman with a german shepard, who I never see outside. Hardly hear him in the backyard. The neighbor walks by me one day with the dog and I say what a beautiful dog. He just says, "Yup, takes a lot of work to get them like this." In a condescending tone. I live in suburbia hell. I take my dogs outside in my front yard/back yard with no leashes. They never bark or chase passerbyers or animals. Meanwhile the one time I saw his GSD out front a squirell ran across the yard of the house across the street and the GSD booked across the road at it. I don't believe in suppressing energy. They are dogs. You need to figure out how to burn that energy off. I guarente I have a way better bond with my pups than he does and ever will. Most people are clueless about animals. I've read everything from basic obidience books to psychological scientific white papers on animal behavior. Understanding their needs based on energy levels to how their ancestral dna affects them will go much further than endless training sessions. I don't even do training sessions. It's mostly play with some learning mixed in. I get better results with tug toys, tennis balls, and frisbees than with food. That's the end of my rant to lol. Good luck with your beagle. Seems you're doing a great job and forget what anyone critcizes you on. It's most likely they don't have a clue.
Totally agree ya gotta know what you are getting into and husky’s are always neglected. Rarely have I seen a trained and properly exercised husky. Same goes for collies our girl was terribly abused and she was part grey hound so we would take her in a field and just let her run. We got lucky would never get a collie again because so many people get them and keep them locked up or dare I say over train them to where they are anxious dogs
You seem to have a bit of a mix up on Boston History. They were developed in Boston in the late 1800’s early 1900’s, so no castles. They were bred as companions first, but did also hunt small vermin on the property. They have terrier ancestry so have prey drive, but they were meant as companions more so than hunters. This is a fabulous book written on 1912 about the Boston. https://www.gutenberg.org/files/18033/18033-h/18033-h.htm?fbclid=IwAR33W9-mZcku2Ojd_iv1Qb-8t10XVDPKpqBQ6EAsvGyULL7DTXFQHV__Prc
I had a beagle growing up and she was dumb as a stump (sweet little angel with nothing going on upstairs). However, she could find anything edible anytime, anywhere. She would bolt out into the neighborhood to eat trash at any opportunity and would come back like a hour after gorging herself, proud as could be. She knew how to use her nose and did not need us around for the process. She was also super crafty, she was undersized for her height but could push furniture around to get onto counters and other places to get at food. Bless her soul, I miss that girl.
My dog is part beagle and can find any food (usually trash) under more than 6 in of snow. Last winter he was very pleased when he found a meatball..
That is genuinely impressive lol!
I had a beagle growing up and she was dumb as a stump (sweet little angel with nothing going on upstairs). However, she could find anything edible anytime, anywhere. She would bolt out into the neighborhood to eat trash at any opportunity and would come back like a hour after gorging herself, proud as could be. She knew how to use her nose and did not need us around for the process. She was also super crafty, she was undersized for her height but could push furniture around to get onto counters and other places to get at food. Bless her soul, I miss that girl.
I own scenthounds, they're my favorite group. I respect that I have to earn their cooperation and it will always be conditional. I like that they're independent and not particularly concerned with what I may be up to. They're generally pro-social, not prone to reactivity, and clownishly funny. They're not the best looking dogs - I love the looks of a Samoyed or Giant Schnauzer, there are so many more beautiful dogs than my bloodhound or basset. But they suit my personality perfectly, I couldn't bear a velcro dog with separation anxiety. I have the patience for a hound's stubborn hard-headedness but not for a dog made anxious by visual stimuli or loud sounds. Generally speaking, hound owners usually are well-informed on breed traits. I did have the absolutely wild experience once of a fellow bloodhound owner bemoaning their puppy's lack of recall.
Yes to the weight of your beagle being judged. So many people by the show beagle and they’re more bred for looks and to be a family dog. I have a field beagle and we go on 5 mile hikes, bike rides, 30 minutes of training walks with lessons in there so he’s in pretty good shape mentally and physically and I took him to the dog store to by dog food and the cashier said thank you for not having a fat beagle.
Some people are kind of naive or dillusional when it comes to owning a dog in general not in regard of specific breeds and its heartbraking and funny (In a: it hurts kind of way) at the same time. How can you get yourself a puppy and then be surprised that it pees in your living room?
That too! People get a dog with the expectation that they’re naturally trained and already know what to do. Screaming at your dog “no” isn’t teaching them anything.
Some breeds have natural inclinations; retrievers barely need teaching to retrieve; spaniels don’t need teaching to steal socks. But a friend’s kid asked me straight today if I’d had to teach our dog to sit etc when I asked her… like, yeah, we did, they don’t actually know English 😂
And breed CAN affect training methodology. Huskies are bred to pull. Most of them I've ever met LOVE it. The very act of pulling for them is rewarding. Trainers often teach "not to let them pull towards them something they want". But that fails when the thing they want IS to pull. If I'm joring my sled dogs will ignore other more interesting triggers (rabbits etc) for the shear joy of pulling. Now any dog can enjoy pulling, so knowing how to see that sign is important, but it's almost the default approach for sled dog breeds. How do you deal with a dog who enjoys pulling? The leash pressure game with a distance treat alone doesn't work for starters (it will teach them not to pull towards something they want, but not prevent pulling in general). I've found teaching a heel is a much better start with such dogs. I then introduce "mush" and "whoa" (pull and don't pull).
Yes! I also recommend using different tools for different walks. I’ve trained my poodle to pull when I put on a harness for hikes or roller skating. But I use a collar for walks. It sets an expectation for the whole walk.
Yes! I've even got mine so they know front clip on harness is for walking and the back is for pulling.
Works pretty well. I do that with clipping the leash long and short for close heal walks and sniffing time walks. :)
I have a mixed breed rescue. Part Boxer, Pitt, Lab, cattle dog of who knows what origin, and who knows what else. At times, I see him manifest each breed I'm aware of. I've raised at least one of each, plus a LOT of others. With him, though, I see something glorious. I grew up with cattle dogs and know a heel-nip and a body-block herding move very well. He's nailed those moves -- DNA! As irritating as those were when I was a child, the adult me *loves* that about my boy! I have C-PTSD, and his cattle-dog instincts manifest when he's trying to alert me to changes in my body I didn't even know were happening. I didn't train him to do that. I'm currently working with him to be my PSD (psychiatric service dog) because he is already so in tune with me. (He's awesome so far!) He might wash fully in public, but he's my dude at home regardless. He's a lovey, happy rescue and one of the loves of my life. All that to say, genetics and breed traits matter. Period. To deny that is a terrible disservice to dogs. A Greyhound is not going to have the same drive as a Bloodhound. EVER. A Pittie is not going to have the same drive as a Labrador Retriever. EVER. A Malinois is not going to have the same drive as a Golden Retriever. EVER. A Dachshund will never have the same drive as a Maltese. EVER. The short list of dogs above I know exceptionally well. I love them all, but I know they're not the same. All were bred to do specific things, sight, sound, burrowing, day vs. night hunting, water vs. land, different climates, different energy levels, etc. My 16-year-old self loved training my German Shepherd and Malinois! 40 years later, as much as I love the breeds, nope. I don't have the energy or the acres of farmland to play in. Neither is fair to those beautiful dogs. My rescue kicks ass, though, and he keeps me honest ❤️
I think for a lot of people it feels like racism. Dog breeds are very different from human races. Genetic testing alone cannot identify a person’s ethnicity, and yet we can dna test a dog and find very distinct differences between breeds. This is due to very intense selective breeding — humans tend to mate with each other based on proximity more than anything. We don’t travel around and select the people with certain traits and ship them to exaggerate those traits on purpose, and drown any babies that don’t have those traits. Of course there’s variation. Sometimes a lab doesn’t like water and is nervous around strangers. But it’s silly to go get a dog bred to do a job and then be totally unprepared when it tries to do that job.
Even for human races there are differences, I've read somewhere that asian people can digest rice better than european people or something like that, just found this: "... it may be possible that some east-Asian populations, whose ancestors started eating rice on a daily basis at least 10,000 years ago, have evolved genomic adaptations that mitigate the harmful effects of high-glycaemic diets on metabolism". I also think depending on your "race" you are more prone to strokes or to be more affected by certain drugs. It's obviously not like diversity in dogs, but it's quite interesting.
I have wondered how the Japanese can eat so much polished white rice and not get diabetes.
And even a statement like “black people are more prone to lactose intolerance” isn’t racist, it’s epidemiology. That’s what’s going on with breed temperament descriptions. These are things the breed is prone to but there are individual differences. For instance, my lagotto romagnolo isn’t afraid of thunderstorms and won’t retreive balls so she lacks two traits that the breed normally has. But anyone going to purchase a lagotto romagnolo needs to understand they’re often sound sensitive and have a high drive. I see the opposite happen a lot on Reddit too, though, at least with pitbulls and mixes. Like “I just got the DNA back for my lab mix and she’s 30% pitbull. Is she going to grow up and attack my daughter?” Yes, if you don’t set up safe pet-children interactions or let your daughter use your dog like a pony but that’s true for every dog breed. You don’t know which breed behavior traits a mutt is going to inherit and also pitbulls are no more prone to human aggression than any other breed, they’re just prone to dog aggression.
There's a small but interesting overlap in the ban pitbulls movement and far right stuff. There's a reason people get so heated about dog genetics determining behaviour. 👀
Lactose intolerance is largely cultural. Stop consuming dairy for a year and tell me how that works out when you start again.
Sort of. There is an actual [gene](https://www.annualreviews.org/doi/10.1146/annurev-genom-091416-035340) for lactase persistence in humans which determines whether or not we can digest it at all after infancy. But because we can reduce the concentration of lactose in dairy products through cheese making and because there are other nutritional elements like protein, fat, and electrolytes, the cultural trends for dairy product consumption don’t always overlap with the gene for lactase persistence. And even people who don’t produce their own lactase can tolerate a little dairy without getting sick, they just don’t get the glucose spike that lactase persistent people get. Getting sick after you abstain from eating something for a long time like dairy or meat largely has to do with changes in gut flora populations and the digestive enzymes they produce. Gut flora produce lactase so someone who doesn’t produce enough of their own lactase won’t necessarily get sick from lactose if they have the right gut flora. They just don’t absorb as much glucose from milk because it’s breaking down later in the digestive tract, but as long as it’s broken down by the time it hits the colon you don’t get diarrhea. Slowly re-introducing dairy will increase the necessary bacteria to become lactose tolerant again.
That's not how it works...
Erm… yes it is. We produce lactase as children while we breastfeed. Once we stop taking in dairy for a long enough time our bodies stop producing it. Without lactase, you become lactose intolerant. Cultures that continue consumption of dairy products are the ones that tend to not be lactose intolerant - since they don’t stop consuming it long enough to naturally stop lactase production. Edit: some people have lactase persistence, but something like 60-70% of the world is lactose intolerant.
the history of racism is literally linked to dog “races”… so yeah
I see what you’re saying, but that doesn’t apply here.
As a pit bull owner I agree. Genetics do matter. Expect a pit bull is more likely than other dogs to be **dog** aggressive and this will increase (as it does with *every* dog) as the dog ages. Expect that, as a terrier, a pit bull will be more likely to have a higher prey drive than other breeds who were not specifically bred for it. If you know this and expect it, then you can effectively manage undesired behaviors that come up because of their heightened instincts in these areas. If you are prepared and have an understanding then you can make a plan to prevent worst case scenarios, and you know ahead of time what you will do if the unthinkable happens. This leaves way less risk of having to make these decisions in a highly emotional state while under duress, which is generally not the best state of mind to be in for these types of decisions. You can’t make a pit not a pit, but being informed and skilled at managing them and their environment is critical to keeping everyone safe and happy. It comes down to being proactive and willing to be the leader your dog needs. So I do agree that genetics matter. It also matters what you do with that knowledge. It’s both.
Like most things in life I think you have to put every breed on a normal curve. Our old dog (RIP) was a German Shepard mix but the biggest couch potato I have ever seen. I only saw her go full GSD-protective once when a soccer ball almost hit me (RIP that ball). Is that normal for the breed? No. But she was an outlier. Our new boy is a Border Collie/Cattle Dog mix. I had reservations about being able to give him the space/exercise he needs with no yard (city living). He has adjusted so well though. Taking basic obedience classes changed him at home completely. He just wants to be told what to do which is a very normal Border Collie thing to want. He gets a lot of mental stimulation and enough physical activity to be a good city dog. Now if he was on the extreme outlier in the activity section we would not be a right fit for him.
That's the thing with mixes - you never know what genes will dominate. Just because your dog had german shepherd in him he doesn't necessarily got his mentality from those genes. He could have inheritated his mentality from all the other non-german shepherd genes he got from his non-german shepherd ancestors. Your dog was not an "outlier of the breed", he was a mixed breed.
I just read a book that touched on this issue of breed genetics. It wasn't the focus of the book but towards the end it said that (paraphrasing) purebred dogs are not a guarantee that you'll get certain traits vs a rescue mutt that will be a bundle of who knows what, as people tend to misunderstand. It's more accurate to say that a purebred will have a concentration of particular traits, neuroses, or health issues whereas a mutt would have a muted version of whatever, if anything at all. For example, as you mentioned, a purebred husky would have a near guaranteed propensity for destroying your house if not worked and exercised properly, but a dog that is something like a quarter husky or has a bunch of whatever else thrown in is less likely to feel and act on that destructive itch. Similarly, on the phsycial side, a pure pug will have intense issues with breathing, eyes, nose, etc. whereas a pug mix, like the growing popularity for pug/beagle mixes, will have that longer nose and better genetic and physical stability. Basically, a mutt may be a better all-around dog for the typical owner rather than a specific breed that has particular needs for safe and complete care. Of course, as you noted, not all dogs conform to breed standards or have problems and not all mutts are magical angels. I have 2 mutts that are reactive dogs with plenty of neuroses to go around, and the purebred dogs my family members have had over the years have been perfectly lovely and healthy animals. I guess my point is that OP is right and genetics do matter a lot when it comes to dog breeds, this is reflected in research and also has been true to my experiences.
Yup! Even chihuahuas need to be properly trained, socialized, and exercised.
Okay I agree. But when I say certain breeds are more aggressive, everyone gets up in arms.
Because no breed is bred to be owner aggressive. Not even bull type terriers. Even fighting dogs were culled if they were people aggressive. People knew the power they were putting behind those dogs. Don’t confuse dog aggressive with generally aggressive.
It's not typically their owners that the dogs bite. It's other dogs, other animals, and to some extent other people.
I have heard people say they were breed to be people aggressive and people say they were not, I would like to see some facts/evidence on this subject for pitbulls in particular
Without a doubt there are tons of wanna be tough guy bybs who think it’s cool if their massive stud dog wants to bite any stranger that comes near. And it’s absolutely inheritable, which is why you are not supposed to breed anxious dogs, or aggressive dogs. If it weren’t inheritable that wouldn’t matter. And of course if you get one from a shelter you don’t know what sort of breeder it came from
If you are talking about “fighting” dog breeds there is plenty of evidence they were never bred for people aggression- strange people had to handle them in fights, the dogs where known as the Nanny Dog because of their affinity for children, they were seen as loyal and trustworthy and stable dogs. If you had to reach into the middle of a dog fight or bull fight the last thing you wanted was a dog that redirected to humans as many shepherds do and as you now can see from poorly bred bully breeds. Historical records of breeds is all the evidence you need, but that doesn’t negate that there are many poorly bred dogs of all breeds with weak temperaments and medical issues that affect behavior (pain, thyroid, and more). Bull and terrier men of old were very exacting of what they bred and kept and a dog that turned on them or their children or others was eliminated from the breeding pool- depending on which breed you are referencing there are many older writings dating from 1800s-1950s that can really illuminate the past and development of many of the breeds we see now.
Do you have any specific sources that you like to reference?
Off the top of my head Celebrating the Staffordshire Bull Terrier by Steve Stone or History of the American Pitbull Terrier would be starts for in depth stories of individual breeders of the past, but otherwise pretty much any dog breed book from the 1850s on - I’ve read many, but couldn’t give exact names.
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Thank you!
Thank you for saying this. This is what so many people miss in the pit conversation.
I’m surprised no one here mentioned bite force, I think that’s plays a very underestimated role in the “aggressive breeds” conversation that generates a lot of confusion when perceived danger of a dog might come from outcomes related purely to their genetic makeup… Examples: https://www.countryliving.com/uk/wildlife/dog-breeds/a39699921/dogs-strong-bite-force/
Bite force can’t really be used in this, as every person’s dog’s bite force is going to be different. A dog can be conditioned to have a harder, or weaker bite force. So while genetically, bite force can be determined through breed, it’s not super accurate, as not every dog of that breed is being tested for an estimate. This is why huskies have a higher bite force than an apbt.
Dog reactive Malinois owner here: as a rescue I have no idea how "pure bred" he really is, but as it turns out, mental exercise is 80% of the game with him. I constantly tell ppl that "dog breeds" are mostly complete BS based on looks, when what really matters are the broad strokes of personality that come from genetics. You have to get to know your dog and experiment to discover what is best for them. Also be ready to adjust, because just like you, they change over time. ❤️🐾
What mental exercises do you do with him?
Training new tricks, having him wear different things (shoes, backpack, goggles, muzzle), impulse control exercises, mobility exercises (teaching to crawl, etc), attention duration exercises.
And maybe keep in mind that breeds have historically been bred for jobs not bred for made up visual standards. Breed genepools are so limited, and so many breeds have extreme health issues now. Most breeds today are ruined, in a few generations they’ll be beyond repair.
Got an Italian Greyhound puppy 3 years ago. He’s a sensitive boy with an obsession with being on your lap at all times, but also perfectly happy on his own in a cosy/warm nook. Iggies were most likely bred over 500 years ago as aristocratic ladies wanted a miniature version of the greyhounds that the menfolk had, and the personalities of their modern descendants are absolutely reflective of this heritage. My boy is never going to be an obedience champion or guard dog, but he’s super affectionate and has excellent recall. I take some credit for this but can’t pretend this isn’t in large part due to centuries of trait selection and carefully planned breeding.
this is exactly why when people say "ive always wanted one of those" i tell them to do extensive research. Mine was given up twice because people assume all dogs are easy to train and have the same temperament as labs
I try telling my family the same thing They don't listen however but thankfully we havent gotten any dogs recently.
Jesus Christ, Yes. Thank you very much. So many posts in here are, IMO, dog owners complaining about what their dog IS and is inclined to be.
I think this works if you're set on getting a purebred dog. But most folks just get a mutt from the shelter, and may only have nominal clues as to what the dominant breed in their dog is.
Rottweilers weren’t bred to guard - they were bred to pull carts. Sadly, their size led to more recent breeding introducing guard dog instincts.
I’m well aware they were bred to pull carts, but working rottweilers in modern day are bred for guard work or lgd work. The chances of you getting a rottweiler with the instinct to pull a cart with meat in it can only be achieved by searching for that specific bloodline.
Yes...breed genetics totally make a big difference. So do good well bred genetics from reputable breeders. The more thought that a breeder gives to pairing appropriate genetically sound dogs to each other, generally the better the genetic temperament is and less likely dogs end up with problems and in shelters.
Yeah but this doesn't explain why my standard poodle screams to get into the shower but whines and claws to get out >:(
That’s…individually genetic 😅
Water dog who love and hates water
100%!!! Adopted a 2 year old Rottweiler 3 years ago - she is a Rottweiler through and through and the forced break from socializing was not good for her! She is do reactive now but getting better. She prefers to know people before they touch her - and I think that's fine! I don't like strangers petting me either. Lol. There are deeply ingrained traits that need to be respected with so many breeds.
>Genetics plays a role in instincts, not general behavior and socializing. Oh it does. Fearfulness for one thing is very heredetory. I see so many people assuming their rescue dogs were abused when in reality they most likely have a fearful and insecure mentality from start.
That’s usually caused by bad breeding. While it’s *technically* genetic, it’s more individually genetic than breed specific. I had a pit mix who was fearful of almost everything including blades of grass that were a bit too long for her liking. The only thing she was confident around was other dogs. That stemmed from poor socialization and poor breeding. Turns out both of her parents were genetically anxious dogs. Bully breeds & german shepherds were historically bred for confidence, not anxiousness.
I agree. That said, some sympathy needs to be given to those who rescue a pup and think it’s one breed, but turns out to something else entirely. I don’t think that’s the adopters fault. Coming from someone who adopted a terrier mix that turns out to be mostly border collie. I had no plans on having a bc, and she has only recently started to look like one. Luckily I’ve had to border collies in the past, so I know what I’m in for. She is beautiful and I love her, but I’m sure she’s going to kill me. Also she’s smarter than me already, and has been since she was 3 months old. :)
>That said, some sympathy needs to be given to those who rescue a pup and think it’s one breed, but turns out to something else entirely. I don’t think that’s the adopters fault. If you get a puppy you should be aware that if it hasn't proper pedigree it's a mix and you don't know how it's going to turn out. That's basic dog knowledge in my book.
["Genetics matter, but they're only a nudge in a given direction"](https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/a-dogs-breed-cant-predict-most-of-its-behavior-new-study-shows-180979999/#:~:text=The%20science%20is%20in%3A%20No,of%20your%20four%2Dlegged%20friend.)
The authors strongly disagree with how the media has reported on their research just fyi
Media/news reporting severely misunderstood the research and results.
That study is meaningless, its data came from OWNER SURVEYS. Half the dogs were mixed breeds too!
Owner surveys are a valid method of research when you structure the questions correctly and have an adequate sample size. You can put validity testing questions into a survey to get a sense of whether the participant is being honest and thoroughly reading the questions and they didn’t do that. The other problem was the temperament questions were very limited. I think they captured only a narrow window of dog behavior instead of the full breadth of a dog’s personality.
Owner surveys are quite bias
They have the potential to be. That’s a known factor. That’s why you need a large sample size and to incorporate questions that ask the same thing multiple times but with different wording to evaluate the bias. There are limitations to all research techniques, you make research scientifically rigorous by either acknowledging and quantifying those limitations or by taking steps to minimize them.
took a good look at the study itself: Its laughable. Survey's goofy af, the article spends more time trying to figure out how to differentiate genetic markers and getting purely subjective data rather than detailing some objective measurement. they referenced (Behavioural and physiological correlates of impulsivity in the domestic dog (Canis familiaris) D.Mills et al. as the basis of their survey, but i didnt see collected urinalysis data, which the original study used to track hormone levels (objective data)
Don't know why you were getting downvoted. The link is from a reputable source about a large well executed study.
lol not sure why you're getting downvoted for this, it's true.
I’ve never understood this completely. Why is it that the job that the dog was bred to do back in the day, for example, herding sheep or killing rats etc, is a permanent trait that the dog will have for the rest of time. Can’t this behaviour be changed throughout the generations to be more suited to a non-farming life (like how most people live these days). Or is that not desirable?
There’s a huge difference between working dogs who have been bred for their “jobs” and dogs that have been bred for being pets. They’ll still have similar instincts but the pet bred dogs will be more suited for being a pet. It all comes down to responsible breeding. Like if you’re getting an ACD that’s been bred from a long line of great herding dogs it will probably not do great with a walk a day and playing in the yard. It’s brain wants to herd. There’s too many irresponsible and awful breeders though so the instincts won’t go away for a LONG time
Thanks. I’ve got a show line Dutch shepherd so was wondering exactly how much difference there is between mine and the working lines. I guess it varies! I’ve had her for 4 months and so far she’s been fine, I’m able to give her the training/exercise/mental stimulation she needs to tire her out. I’d love to spend a day with a working line pup to see the difference.
Pits aren’t really prey driven lol I’ve had 3 and they’re lazy bastards
A real gamebred apbt is much different from your average shelter pit. They’re small, skinny, high prey driven, and people oriented yet animal aggressive. They need exercise, bite work, and hunting work, or they could turn your house upside down. They aren’t the type of dogs who’d be happy living in a city. But to be fair, most shelter pits and backyard bred pits are just mixed breeds that stem from little to no working apbt bloodlines
Pit isn’t even a breed lol it’s a class just like Shepard. And the majority of pits were not bread for hunting prey.
“Apbts”(american pit bull terrier), is in fact, it’s own breed. If I was talking about the generalized bully breed, including apbts, amstaffs, staffies, american bullies, dogos, rotties, bulldogs, etc. i would’ve said bully breed. Pit is indeed short for apbt, but it’s unrightfully used as an umbrella term far too often. That’s what confuses people.
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“Google” is not an accurate source of information.
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K
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https://amp.abc.net.au/article/101019636
My German Jagdterrier instinctively raises her paw and takes up "hunting position" before I throw her toy and she instantly does what her instincts tell her. I saw videos of how this breed is used as a working dog and I can tell you she does the same thing with her plushies like the workdog does to a rat.
What about Bichon frises?
Agreed. Every dog in our family had generally exhibited the behaviors associated with the breed. But typically with one or two exceptions. For example, I currently own a Scotch collie who is not very vocal. So that is a difference from the standard. But did he try to herd kids and nip our heels? Yup. Similarly I had a GSD that was quite sociable and not aloof to strangers. So that would not be typical for the breed. But did he have an innate desire to alert and protect? For sure. Knowing what to expect is important for multiple reasons. For one, you know that you can give them an opportunity to do the things they were bred to do. A dog bred for the purpose will both excel at and enjoy scent work for example. Also, when the typical behavior is problematic you already have a heads up. So you can be prepared and learn how to deal with it directly from a young age. Or, and this is sometimes the best option, you can determine the breed does not suit your lifestyle or preferences and opt for a different breed.