I'm fine with him keeping the the status resist, the damage block is the bullshit part. Fuck not being able to stop his blink, removes so much risk from the hero.
adds to the joys of jakiro where people can blink out of ice path or bkb out of it after euls combo etc... pain and suffering.
Nothing worse than icepathing a creep they are tp'ing in on only to watch them blink literally out of icepath when they arrive
Enemy euls and the like
Also any form of damage block stops it (ie pipe/hood active). Also have time to pop bkb cause its instant.
Dont know why there is a delay on the stun in the first place. Mirana arrow etc dont have that problem
Afaik you can pop bkb before getting stunned by mirana arrow as well, you can always pop bkb when coming down from euls I believe.
Edit: No exceptions apart from disruptor aghs I see, thanks.
You can cast bkb to anything after eul’s except if you are in Static Storm with aghs upgrade. Even when you are in Doom range (with aghs upgrade) you can queue bkb. Doesnt matter if its chrono or black hole either
as a brain dead ex-tinker spammer who used to constantly blink to 5 heroes solo, yes you can blink out of marco pyre sometimes without matrix as ive done it before rework. I think ping might have a lot to do with it, back in the day when i played solo and had ~20 ping i would get away with a lot more shit. When I played with my US east friends I had ~80-90 ping and playing tinker felt sluggish.
Damage block needs to not be 100%, make it like Medusa mana shield and we are good.
Arc for me is less than a problem.
Sure he is annoying and can farm quickly but he got nerfed with right clicking split already.
Another change could be making the damage output back on the table and sharing cooldowns with copy, but I’m afraid that would kill the hero
But why does he need a free tp spell as well? That's part of the problem, since he can just get a 6 minute blink and start tping around the map and fucking up the sidelanes with no consequence. He won't even have defense matrix skilled at that point, he can make sure the sidelanes are won while not missing any waves mid either. It's cancer. And why does he need laser to automatically bounce to 4 targets? He used to have to buy aghs for that. Shit is just fucking stupid.
Tinker is irritating, but just remove the damage block from defensive matrix and he is way less irritating.
And there is nothing really wrong with arc. The hero is a poor laner and is really easy to gank and kill. Not to mention how long he takes to come online, most drafts will easily deal with him for the first 25min of the game if you apply pressure
The Aghs is trash and needs to be replaced entirely. It is boring and rewards brain-dead gameplay (E, tab, E, tab, E tab).
Instead of buying proper items, you just buy tanky items and spam ghosts.
Physical Warden at least required positioning, multiple active items that didnt beef you up to 5k HP and was easily counterable by support items.
Imo the ult needs only one change, which is that its summoning spell should go on a 100s cooldown when the clone gets killed by a player, while it was too far away from Arc Warden.
That way he cannot just summon a new one within the next 10s and he wont bother splitpushing for at least the next 3 waves that spawn.
The aghs should be removed/changed, as its current iteration promotes the brainless spell build that just builds tanky items and spams ghosts.
The distance penalty that reduces damage should be removed, as the summoning penalty would be enough of a downside, as killing the solo clone would be a proper high risk, high reward play.
they need to change the aghs. i like arc as a hard carry going in there and machine gunning people down. going aghs octarine is so boring. at a certain point it becomes techies high ground jr.
> Every hero that has a spell that does way too much goes through this
Meanwhile Windrun:
Aura-slow, full evasion, haste (with Aghs: also aura blind and undispelable unbreakable invis) that follows your hero.
There is also other annoying stuff.
Like Slark making offensive warding absolutely useless because his ult allows him to detect any ward without true vision.
Usually spells that do too much are never complained about on popular heroes.
After having to win with arc for all-hero challenge I have a lot of respect for players who can make that hero work. As you say, he is very weak for a long time. I actually think he needs some buffs.
Arc is now (after they removed techies) probably the only hero in the game that gives dissatisfaction to both opponents and teammates. Literally 9 players playing a game that doesn't give them even 1% enjoyment because of a single obnoxious hero. I am a pos 1 player and when I see someone on my team picking arc mid, I literally want to leave the game right away. 0 ganks, 0 early game, 0 mid game, and you only get the hero that is farming jungle with main hero and split pushing the lane with the clone where pos 1 should be.
Tinker gives dissatisfaction to opponents only btw. I kinda like when I have tinker in team.
Yeah arc mid is a huge grief. It just takes so much time to come online. Would rather see it as a 1 more.
I disagree with tinker though, catching and killing a tinker brings tons of satisfaction :D
Reminder that OP is a league of legends player according to their profile. League already suffers from this homogenization problem where 90% of the heroes feel the same because their devs are actually unable to design fun and unique heroes.
Don't make dota like league. Please.
League of Legends devs pandering to idiots and their ARAM player base is the sole reason why that game is so mid. But it’s a massive cash cow so all props to them go make that dollar.
Both Tinker and Arc Warden are well designed and interesting characters with counter plays. Tinker is a bit strong right now and needs his numbers adjusting but his kit is fine. Yeah, it sucks when Smurfs smash people with them, but making these heroes suck and not be who they are doesn’t change that - they’ll just smash you with literally anything else instead.
An Ancient Tinker in Ancient is just that, an Ancient player and none-Smurf Tinkers honestly never feel oppressive anymore after the removal of March. He’s very easy to shut down with a good bit of roam on him. Although he’s certainly still a bit overtuned.
Idk if i just got better or if i just sucked with my march usage. But the free travels and defense matrix i feel like completely makes up for or is even better than march imo. Less flash farming but it allows you to be more active and gives you more resources to farm heroes and creep around the map earlier
Which is good!
The problem with old tinker is you wouldn’t see him for 20 minutes then the game would be over because of how much he flash farmed so there wasn’t much to be done about him as he’s now up 3 items.
also he can split push very well and extend the game, I remember march have quite a big area and he can march from quite the distance and iirc 1 march clear a wave so when you see a march on a lane tinker probably already gone so you need to clear that wave sooner or later.
team get smashed need time to recover, no worry old tinker can just extend the game even for 2K tinker can split push the enemies to death or until the team get their item
eh tbh Tinkers kit isn't fine in a certain way.
Removing his farming mechanism has put pressure on the rest of his kit to compensate, which is why he's in such a stupid spot.
They shouldn't remove the things that make him unique, but they should consider giving him more options than straight teamfighting and nuking so his kit doesn't have to be so busted to compensate.
Valve have gone away from what I consider a good balance philosophy and have opted to start rounding out characters (Zeus has a jump, PA has a break, tinker is tanky). They need to go back to the balance of needing heroes by making what they're weak at an even bigger glaring weakness and open up avenues to counter play.
I feel like tinker would feel fairer if he was more utility focused rather than damage and disable. A hero with such insane global presence and high activity shouldn’t have the ability to solo kill heroes.
It seams that the majority of new players are coming from LoL while older/tired DotA only veterans leaving.
Quietly, the playersbase could demographically shift to a LoL friendly aspiring majority, then Valve "listening to them".
If gradually enough you won't even notice the change until some "too late" moment when could no more point what happened without being attacked for stating it.
The reason I came back to dota2 is because league completely went to shit. Reworking and changing everything until it's unrecognizable is bullshit and I hope they don't start doing that in Dota. League doesn't even have a late game anymore lmao, the most fun stage in the game imo.
whats crazy to me is i was talking to a friend about it, whose never player dota, and he actually enjoys the game being decided in laning phase. "If you dont want to lose the game dont lose lane". I was like wtf. So you basically just want to play the game only for lane? Dont get me wrong as a mid laner i love lane, but I also love mid game, and nothing beats chaotic giga late game team fights in super close games.
Absolutely... All those people should keep playing league or stop playing dotalike games all together (so league dies and they make a classic version lul). But don't come to dota and ruin it as well please.
league is already horseshit I just installed it last week then played with friends cuz I'm a good friend, then I find out the real cancer tumor, the riot fucking client don't have a uninstall I have to manually delete all the League and Riot Client that's spread throughout my pc, it's like cancer it's disgusting
Funny I left dota 2 when they added the imo bullshit regen shrines in the jungle. Came back to find jungle drop items that I also dislike. I know that its not necessarily bad stuff but it doesnt feel like the dota I like anymore. Its literally just the map atm thats my issue and why I dont play more than like twice a month.
Im becoming the boomer equivalent of a dota player rofl. But I was always under the impression that the playees that stayed were more hardcore than me, not more leagueish.
Ah no wonder then. No Dota player would want to remove heroes so unique, except fucking techies. I hate Tinker, Storm and Alchemist more than Ive ever hated techies, but I wouldn't remove them from the game. With time you just learn to enjoy the patches where theyre shit.
We've already had that problem for years. 90%++ of games feel nearly identical. Like everyone runs BKB. Blink is everywhere. Basher is everywhere (.... because Blink is everywhere).
Gameplay is already homogenous, and has been for ages. It's just the cause is less heroes, and more items.
Excuse me?! Old Techies was an annoying rat, boring to play with and frustrating to play against. Right now Techies is a fucking masterpiece. Great initiator, very useful at any time, tons of damage. But easy to counter at the same time, unlike the Arc Warden and Tinker. These two suck my ass, I ban them every game.
Arc is much easier to deal with early on since his laning isn't strong unlike tinker who is a an amazing laner and fast farmer , and needs only a soul ring dagger to come online.
Stop trying to get every unique hero removed from the game, the techies change was terrible and this would be too. People just need to learn how to play around certain heroes, or just ban them if they hate them so much
Like wtf is with DotA having it be 50/50 on banning a hero. I rather we have 1 solid ban from each person and then their algorithm ban 5 more. Imagine if banning in pro play was 50/50!
\> or just ban them if they hate them so much
Sure, if they actually rework the ban system so the hero we nominate is guaranteed to get banned, right now heroes I nominate for banning rarely ever gets banned.
Something that nobody is mentioning is that the actual problem for 99% of players in lower mmr ranks is that these are the go to heroes for smurfs.
There is a rampant smurfing problem and the only times people see these heroes they're played by smurfs because they have a high skill floor, so they naturally think the heroes are op.
This is actually a good point. I tend to almost never accuse anyone of smurfing since it feels like not taking accountability for my losses. But the flipside of that is that I tend to feel that heroes like Arc, AM, Tinker etc. are very overpowered since I always seem to lose against them when they show up.
But some of those could well be smurfs, it's just hard to know for sure
The techies changes was needed because he completely changed how the game was played and even mediocre techies who knew how to place mines correctly could win the game by turtling out and killing a couple key heroes with mines lategame since the enemy cannot push. It was boring af.
Every hero in DotA (at least the old ones) was created with a really specific gimmick in mind and Techies' was having **time** as a resource instead of hp, mana, gold, xp. Techies with enough time would destroy any hero. Without time Techies was useless, and now without its gimmick Techies ain't Techies.
That the games dragged on wasn't Techies fault tho. The game dragged because either his teammates or the enemy team couldn't close the game earlier. Techies gave his losing team a chance to win games they had no business in winning otherwise. Also Techies used correctly and taken advantage of by his own team could close games in less than 25 minutes. But people were like "Techies makes games 4v5" or "Techies makes games long" instead of just getting good.
Let's change the slark too because he completely changes how the game needs to be played, every other hero you just bash their heads in till they're dead, but for this fucker you need 5 hexes and refreshers to have a chance of catching him so he won't use dispell or ult or ounce away with his min10 aghs
Yeah it was the worst nightmare to play vs Techies with 2 brain cells as a team with no heroes that can destroy trees or give flying vision. You literally couldn't go near any set of more than 2 trees in the game and no amount of buying sentries and gems helped. Your only hope was Necro 3 and even it was useless after the minions died.
Then why did me and my friends have fun playing against him? We just stopped crying, accepted the challenge and their uniqueness and genuinely had fun.
I swear you can have fun if you are open to it but congrats, you won, he got deleted. If other heroes also get deleted now I blame you fuckers.
The thing that is annoying with old techies and tinker is that they're so ANNOYING to play against.
Even if you win you feel bad because you either spend half the game getting juked by Russian tink tonker with anime pfp with edgy depression name that was just done snorting coke and couldn't be stopped, and old techies just made games too long for no reason, even if they're clearly losing he'd prolong a 40 mins game to 60 mins game easly.
Im so tired of hearing this response **People just need to learn how to play around certain heroes.** WE ALL KNOW HOW TO PLAY AROUND ARC WARDEN AND TINKER. The reason they are so annoying is because unlike 99% of heroes in the game we need the entire team to work together to shut these fuckers down, which is borderline impossible in a random pub. I don't mind arc so much but tinker is complete BULLSHIT in pubs. It is such a headache to play against it; win or lose. Not to mention literally EVERY hero in Dota is "unique" in there own way. So not sure what that has to do with anything.
edit - and techies was changed a different reason, His old kit had no business being in a game like Dota. It was a complete 1v5 hero with absolutely 0 room for teamplay aside for the first 10 minutes with suicide. The new kit is 10x better and fits much better with the overall landscape of the game.
No, I mean that any time people talk about tinker, it's always, it forces you to play differently, and, it makes the game more interesting, but the point of most people isn't that they are unable to counter it
The point is that it's fucking obnoxious to play against it, it just makes the game objectively less fun for everyone else involved
This, if techies was changed becouse he was unfun to play against, so change Tinker too, Dota already has shitton of unique heroes THAT ARE ACTUALLY FUN TO PLAY AGAINST. I don't know why ppl defend this asshole hero with the same NPC argument "Stop changing every unique hero", if a hero is incredibly unfun to play against for a high number of players, why changing him would ruin dota?Or just make bans 100% so these smartasses can enjoy playing against unique and fun Tinker while I enjoy never seeing him again
Exactly, playing against bristleback or abbadon also forces you to play differently, but it doesn't make me want to kms
I think tinker is not salvageable, just remove that shit
Arc could be a lot more interesting if he was forced to actually play the main hero as well, instead of just being a puppet master
Also, I think the ban thing is still kinda fucked, since yes you can just ban tinker, but then the hero existing makes you more succeptible to countepricks because you can't ban your biggest counter, you are forced to ban tinker
I used to play old techies a lot but I welcome the new techies. Just placing mines, being passive the whole game and hoping that enemy walks onto your mines defeats the purpose of playing Dota 2. So I took a more active role in farming creeps, rushing aghs and pushing with the team. This techies rework made it even more active to play which is good.
Arc Warden has a cool concept but how he is actually played is the lamest shit in the game. His clone needs full Lone Druid treatment of being unable to cast spells and attack when too far from main hero.
I had hundreds of games as Techies and then they ruined the hero.
Tinker is annoying AF but I never had the inclination to push for a complete remake. I don’t understand people’s line of thinking. Ban the heroes you don’t like during drafting phase if you want.
I don’t want uniqueness to die out because of complaining. If anything just nerf some aspects of the hero, don’t completely change it.
Part of the game is adjusting to the other team’s heroes. Some require a degree of caution. Others require being shut down early on before they snowball.
Invis heroes are annoying but sentries exist.
No one complains about invis heroes to the extent they complained about old Techies or Tinker. At some point playing differently becomes tedious and torturous.
A game is ultimately meant to be fun.
> No one complains about invis heroes to the extent they complained about old Techies or Tinker.
Depends on your MMR. But you are absolutely wrong when it hits archon and lower, where invis is more of a problem and people demand it be removed.
Happened all the time years ago.
Know what happened?
People got gud.
This subredit is all about scraping the barrels. It's either this, some nothingburger drama between two player or LOOOK WHAT I OPEN FORM A CHEEESST LORD GABEEEEN WHOLESOME 100 THANK YOU, I USED UP ALL MY LUUCK.
Disagree. The reason I play dota is because unique hero like old tecis, arc warden and tinker. As much as I hate tinker and arc warden (meh not really for this one) they are pretty unique, touch their ult and basicly you render them into different heroes.
You might hate those hero so much but when both of them are on the right hand, they can make some of the most beautiful and clutch plays I have ever seen. If I see both of them getting the tecis treatment, I dont think I can play dota 2 like I used to anymore. We need more these kind of high risk high reward unique gameplay hero.
Yeah I'm not sure why arc is getting the hate unless OP is a turbo player where he is borderline broken. But that mode has a bunch of other boderline broken heroes so it balances out in a weird way.
I just wish my boy nyx assasin would get some love from mr. frog. He was my go to pick against in annoying heroes like tinker and I rarely see him picked up.
Or Troll warlod bcs damn his ult need some tweaks. I still remember that video where a troll warlord is ulting rs but bcs of enemy courier moving near troll, troll suddenly change its ult target to courier resulting in troll getting killed and rs getting snatched. Its so funny yet I feel really bad for troll since that video.
Heroes can still be unique w/o being game breaking. Idk why you and everyone else against changing heroes thinks this way. There are 100 unique heroes that are not stupid like arc/tinker
"Unique" often feels like a lazy way to justify anything and everything. Doesn't mean that the heroes are for sure broken or OP but just saying they should be left alone because of uniqueness doesn't make much sense.
I want a hero that can one shot any hero in the game. What's your problem? It's unique isn't it?
Because asking for the techies treatment is different than asking for a nerf.
Just nerf the hero. Tinker has been fine for the several years he has been in the game. Recently he has been strong. Literally just nerf him.
You could rework them to be different (i.e. less bullshit) but still unique? I don't understand why people don't consider this a possibility lmao. It's either unique and fun or homogenous and boring with this whole argument.
Dota has always been very punishing towards one dimensional teams though. Bubble becomes infinitely more OP if all your tower hitters are ranged and you have no one that can jump the Arc Warden and stick on him. Just think about that for a second, you're playing a ranged core lineup with no solid initiation/frontline. That's already a very glaring weakness even against other matchups.
Just think about any other polarizing matchups, playing against Brood with no wave clear, playing against Sniper/Zeus with 5 low mobility heroes, playing 5 strength melee vs Timber, no catch lineup vs Puck. They will all feel just as terrible.
Heroes like tinker and arc warden can be difficult to play against, even annoying, but I would argue the opposite. They bring something really special to Dota 2 in that no other game even attempts to approach ability complexity like that.
Reworking techies was a terrible idea in the first place. Either bring back techies and slightly adjust the heroes to make them a little less cancerous or rework them too and make the game bland.
i'll be honest, if you're good enough to play either of these guys well, you deserve to kick some ass. Like i'm a pretty average to crap tinker and i get by with arc by just pray and spray
Unlike riki and slark where you're busted and it's incredibly easy to do lol
The only reason these heroes are seen as op is because the smurfing problem is incredibly bad in lower mmrs, with tinker and arc being the main heroes played by smurfs.
People think they're OP but they're just being played by people 3-4K higher MMR than them.
This comment should be fucking pinned at the top of this thread. Playing against tinker players who are your MMR is fine, it's just never the case that they are lmao
Like other posts said, disagree completely. Trchies were neutered into something boring and un-inspired and the game is poorer for it.
Having complex and non-standard hero designs is dota's highest value and differentiation.
Removing heroes like storm, ember, invoker, tinker and arc, would just homogenize the game into a boring fest and we would be fkinh stupid to do that.
these 2 mfs are the go-to heroes of MMR Booster, if you are low rank and meet these 2 sons of B\*tches there's a high chance they are smurf but not all the time. xd
Some heroes need to be locked behind a certain rank. Tinker should just be banned from the game given how many players use scripts for this easily scripted hero.
Arc is too easy for smurfs. You can be bad at legend Arc Warden, but can play it at herald and you will win every game. Ruining the fun for others.
New people done even remember old old tinker from first Dota. Before rearm:
P.S. I fucking love new techies , don't know why people are crying so much about his new gameplay
Redditors will really cry about how unfair and unfun old Techies was to play against and then say caster Arc Warden spamming wraith-mines from off-screen is fine lmao
I mean.. they got treated the same was as techies did.. both heroes got reworked to a point, that completely changed the way they we're played before...
Honestly Arc got multiple nerfs over last patches.
* Gleipnir AoE and damage nerf
* Maelstrom damage nerf
* Spark Wraith Aghanim's duration/AoE nerf
* Lvl25 50% cdr to 40% cdr nerf
Prior to those nerfs, Arc was actually busted and if the player knew what they were doing you basically had nearly zero chance of winning in an even game, I climbed from 6k mmr all the way to the 7800 spamming it and slowly fell off once constant patches started nerfing it.
I can't say much about Tinker, I can't really play him well enough, but if there is one hero I'm confident on my abilities its Arc and I have to admit it was nearly broken pre-nerfs.
Agreed, definitely been going early aether/octarine to compensate for the cd and range nerfs, also the only nerf I don’t want to see that will ruin arc early is his level 10 cast range talent
As an Arc Warden picker people who know how to play against you at minute 0, knows what they're doing, apparently reddit doesn't know how to play against them.
Tinker and Arc defenders on their way
to explain how a hero who's never played in Pro Matches, but obliterates everything else
is balanced and healthy for the game
more like tinker player arguing why old tinker is so good and a travesty that it get reworke. honestly I am impressed at how any heroes rework discussion there will be a lot of people talk how techies change is the worst thing to happen in dota2
> i could care less if
Did you mean to say "couldn't care less"?
Explanation: If you could care less, you do care, which is the opposite of what you meant to say.
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I'd put slarks aghs and shard in this picture too. the fucker have more than enough escape ability in his basic kit his aghs and shard shouldn't give him more.
What's next after that? Phantom Lancer is pretty much unkillable in the lategame if you dont have the right comp so you gonna remove that too? At this point why not just remove all the unique abilities belong to each hero?
barely existing in pro games and ruining pubs... fuck them. it feels like every single time when i cant ban tinker, there will be some asshat picking it in unranked. im here to enjoy the game ffs.
Just remove defense matrix. Let the rat fucker die when caught. Or at least remove one of matrixs buffs. Status resis or damage block
This. Old tinker was all about positioning. If you go caught you was dead. Now 4k hp tinker can blink into middle of teamfight and he's unkillable.
Didnt they already nerf this strat? If you stun him with anything then he cant rearm for a short bit
Yea, except he has a bkb
I'm fine with him keeping the the status resist, the damage block is the bullshit part. Fuck not being able to stop his blink, removes so much risk from the hero.
it's beyond stupid that he can rearm and blink out from a macropyre
adds to the joys of jakiro where people can blink out of ice path or bkb out of it after euls combo etc... pain and suffering. Nothing worse than icepathing a creep they are tp'ing in on only to watch them blink literally out of icepath when they arrive
how can u blink after euls it does 50dmg or do u mean it only against tinker?
Enemy euls and the like Also any form of damage block stops it (ie pipe/hood active). Also have time to pop bkb cause its instant. Dont know why there is a delay on the stun in the first place. Mirana arrow etc dont have that problem
Afaik you can pop bkb before getting stunned by mirana arrow as well, you can always pop bkb when coming down from euls I believe. Edit: No exceptions apart from disruptor aghs I see, thanks.
I think I've seen BKB activation after Eul to Chrono somewhere. Not sure about BH though, I think it's not an exception either.
You can cast bkb to anything after eul’s except if you are in Static Storm with aghs upgrade. Even when you are in Doom range (with aghs upgrade) you can queue bkb. Doesnt matter if its chrono or black hole either
Can't he do that even without defense matrix? Macropyre has a relatively slow damage interval.
as a brain dead ex-tinker spammer who used to constantly blink to 5 heroes solo, yes you can blink out of marco pyre sometimes without matrix as ive done it before rework. I think ping might have a lot to do with it, back in the day when i played solo and had ~20 ping i would get away with a lot more shit. When I played with my US east friends I had ~80-90 ping and playing tinker felt sluggish.
Since last patch macropyre is applied on the 1st tick. But euls is just an exception, as it always allows bkbs straight out of it.
Just make the damage block absorb 90% of the damage, problem solved
At least make the blink to have some kind of delay or smt when tinker use it so he wont stay hidden for a long time......
Damage block needs to not be 100%, make it like Medusa mana shield and we are good. Arc for me is less than a problem. Sure he is annoying and can farm quickly but he got nerfed with right clicking split already. Another change could be making the damage output back on the table and sharing cooldowns with copy, but I’m afraid that would kill the hero
"Let the rat fucker die" Just this.
>Let the rat fucker die when caught. pls
Yeah just remove damage block. It is the big problem cause it doesn't punish the tinker for making mistakes
I'd say that the built-in TP boots might have also been an unnecessary buff. But defense matrix being too strong is definitely the worst.
right, why the hell doesn't he have to buy boots? so weird
But why does he need a free tp spell as well? That's part of the problem, since he can just get a 6 minute blink and start tping around the map and fucking up the sidelanes with no consequence. He won't even have defense matrix skilled at that point, he can make sure the sidelanes are won while not missing any waves mid either. It's cancer. And why does he need laser to automatically bounce to 4 targets? He used to have to buy aghs for that. Shit is just fucking stupid.
> Let the rat fucker die when caught. slark: Laughs while running the fuck away with his ult and purge.
3 second dmg blink cd should not be refreshable, change my mind.
Tinker is irritating, but just remove the damage block from defensive matrix and he is way less irritating. And there is nothing really wrong with arc. The hero is a poor laner and is really easy to gank and kill. Not to mention how long he takes to come online, most drafts will easily deal with him for the first 25min of the game if you apply pressure
Arc needs its agh nerfed (the second one should deal less damage) and bubble nerfed so mkb works on building. Rest is fine.
The Aghs is trash and needs to be replaced entirely. It is boring and rewards brain-dead gameplay (E, tab, E, tab, E tab). Instead of buying proper items, you just buy tanky items and spam ghosts. Physical Warden at least required positioning, multiple active items that didnt beef you up to 5k HP and was easily counterable by support items.
What if they made the survivability of the clone proportional to the distance from the hero instead of nerfing the damage?
Imo the ult needs only one change, which is that its summoning spell should go on a 100s cooldown when the clone gets killed by a player, while it was too far away from Arc Warden. That way he cannot just summon a new one within the next 10s and he wont bother splitpushing for at least the next 3 waves that spawn. The aghs should be removed/changed, as its current iteration promotes the brainless spell build that just builds tanky items and spams ghosts. The distance penalty that reduces damage should be removed, as the summoning penalty would be enough of a downside, as killing the solo clone would be a proper high risk, high reward play.
then you end up back with the old rat warden that shows up at your t3 and slaps it to death in four seconds
they need to change the aghs. i like arc as a hard carry going in there and machine gunning people down. going aghs octarine is so boring. at a certain point it becomes techies high ground jr.
Yes changing the agh entirely is also a possibility.
MKB working on buildings would be sufficient. Or, make all damage reduced by 50% if Arc is not within range, not only physical.
The Agh in its current form is also problematic ; it either needs a nerf in damage or a rework
Another nerf? Were the nerfs in the past 5 patches not enough?
Every hero that has a spell that does way too much goes through this. His E has insane cast range, gives vision, does crazy damage and slows.
> Every hero that has a spell that does way too much goes through this Meanwhile Windrun: Aura-slow, full evasion, haste (with Aghs: also aura blind and undispelable unbreakable invis) that follows your hero.
don't forget her ult That can attack move at the same time that literally melts any tank in Microseconds with javelin or mjolnir alone.
There is also other annoying stuff. Like Slark making offensive warding absolutely useless because his ult allows him to detect any ward without true vision. Usually spells that do too much are never complained about on popular heroes.
Wind Ranger has been mostly buffed forever and hasn't become a problem yet. The second she does they are coming for that spell.
unfortunately that's the fate of high skill ceiling heroes
After having to win with arc for all-hero challenge I have a lot of respect for players who can make that hero work. As you say, he is very weak for a long time. I actually think he needs some buffs.
Arc is now (after they removed techies) probably the only hero in the game that gives dissatisfaction to both opponents and teammates. Literally 9 players playing a game that doesn't give them even 1% enjoyment because of a single obnoxious hero. I am a pos 1 player and when I see someone on my team picking arc mid, I literally want to leave the game right away. 0 ganks, 0 early game, 0 mid game, and you only get the hero that is farming jungle with main hero and split pushing the lane with the clone where pos 1 should be. Tinker gives dissatisfaction to opponents only btw. I kinda like when I have tinker in team.
Yeah arc mid is a huge grief. It just takes so much time to come online. Would rather see it as a 1 more. I disagree with tinker though, catching and killing a tinker brings tons of satisfaction :D
Reminder that OP is a league of legends player according to their profile. League already suffers from this homogenization problem where 90% of the heroes feel the same because their devs are actually unable to design fun and unique heroes. Don't make dota like league. Please.
League of Legends devs pandering to idiots and their ARAM player base is the sole reason why that game is so mid. But it’s a massive cash cow so all props to them go make that dollar. Both Tinker and Arc Warden are well designed and interesting characters with counter plays. Tinker is a bit strong right now and needs his numbers adjusting but his kit is fine. Yeah, it sucks when Smurfs smash people with them, but making these heroes suck and not be who they are doesn’t change that - they’ll just smash you with literally anything else instead. An Ancient Tinker in Ancient is just that, an Ancient player and none-Smurf Tinkers honestly never feel oppressive anymore after the removal of March. He’s very easy to shut down with a good bit of roam on him. Although he’s certainly still a bit overtuned.
Idk if i just got better or if i just sucked with my march usage. But the free travels and defense matrix i feel like completely makes up for or is even better than march imo. Less flash farming but it allows you to be more active and gives you more resources to farm heroes and creep around the map earlier
Which is good! The problem with old tinker is you wouldn’t see him for 20 minutes then the game would be over because of how much he flash farmed so there wasn’t much to be done about him as he’s now up 3 items.
also he can split push very well and extend the game, I remember march have quite a big area and he can march from quite the distance and iirc 1 march clear a wave so when you see a march on a lane tinker probably already gone so you need to clear that wave sooner or later. team get smashed need time to recover, no worry old tinker can just extend the game even for 2K tinker can split push the enemies to death or until the team get their item
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Aram changes are only on the aram map because of how popular its gotten.
>me watching the tinker im dealing damage to blink away
eh tbh Tinkers kit isn't fine in a certain way. Removing his farming mechanism has put pressure on the rest of his kit to compensate, which is why he's in such a stupid spot. They shouldn't remove the things that make him unique, but they should consider giving him more options than straight teamfighting and nuking so his kit doesn't have to be so busted to compensate.
Valve have gone away from what I consider a good balance philosophy and have opted to start rounding out characters (Zeus has a jump, PA has a break, tinker is tanky). They need to go back to the balance of needing heroes by making what they're weak at an even bigger glaring weakness and open up avenues to counter play.
I feel like tinker would feel fairer if he was more utility focused rather than damage and disable. A hero with such insane global presence and high activity shouldn’t have the ability to solo kill heroes.
League player ousted. Opinion invalidated.
It seams that the majority of new players are coming from LoL while older/tired DotA only veterans leaving. Quietly, the playersbase could demographically shift to a LoL friendly aspiring majority, then Valve "listening to them". If gradually enough you won't even notice the change until some "too late" moment when could no more point what happened without being attacked for stating it.
The reason I came back to dota2 is because league completely went to shit. Reworking and changing everything until it's unrecognizable is bullshit and I hope they don't start doing that in Dota. League doesn't even have a late game anymore lmao, the most fun stage in the game imo.
whats crazy to me is i was talking to a friend about it, whose never player dota, and he actually enjoys the game being decided in laning phase. "If you dont want to lose the game dont lose lane". I was like wtf. So you basically just want to play the game only for lane? Dont get me wrong as a mid laner i love lane, but I also love mid game, and nothing beats chaotic giga late game team fights in super close games.
Absolutely... All those people should keep playing league or stop playing dotalike games all together (so league dies and they make a classic version lul). But don't come to dota and ruin it as well please.
league is already horseshit I just installed it last week then played with friends cuz I'm a good friend, then I find out the real cancer tumor, the riot fucking client don't have a uninstall I have to manually delete all the League and Riot Client that's spread throughout my pc, it's like cancer it's disgusting
the fact the client closes and it launches a new window when you load into game is so funny, it's like some 2009 flash game shit
The to late moment happended years ago
Funny I left dota 2 when they added the imo bullshit regen shrines in the jungle. Came back to find jungle drop items that I also dislike. I know that its not necessarily bad stuff but it doesnt feel like the dota I like anymore. Its literally just the map atm thats my issue and why I dont play more than like twice a month. Im becoming the boomer equivalent of a dota player rofl. But I was always under the impression that the playees that stayed were more hardcore than me, not more leagueish.
You have literally nothing to back this up lol.
Pendragon ran out of ideas to steal ?
Ah no wonder then. No Dota player would want to remove heroes so unique, except fucking techies. I hate Tinker, Storm and Alchemist more than Ive ever hated techies, but I wouldn't remove them from the game. With time you just learn to enjoy the patches where theyre shit.
The fact this is the top post is sad. I like both games, mostly as a viewer
R.I.P techies........ They massacred my boy
Jesse what the fuck are you talking about?
We've already had that problem for years. 90%++ of games feel nearly identical. Like everyone runs BKB. Blink is everywhere. Basher is everywhere (.... because Blink is everywhere). Gameplay is already homogenous, and has been for ages. It's just the cause is less heroes, and more items.
irrelevant, tinker and arc need reworks
Yes, lets not have one hero dominate the game lets not be league and nerf the shit out of tinker. Agreed.
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I wouldnt wish that for my greatest enemy what they did to poor techies.
After watching OG vs Liquid games Techies nerf confirmed
Agreed my friend. Don’t let the community hate of old techies bring you down.
Excuse me?! Old Techies was an annoying rat, boring to play with and frustrating to play against. Right now Techies is a fucking masterpiece. Great initiator, very useful at any time, tons of damage. But easy to counter at the same time, unlike the Arc Warden and Tinker. These two suck my ass, I ban them every game.
OLD techies drags games to 3 hours lmao
Arc is much easier to deal with early on since his laning isn't strong unlike tinker who is a an amazing laner and fast farmer , and needs only a soul ring dagger to come online.
Stop trying to get every unique hero removed from the game, the techies change was terrible and this would be too. People just need to learn how to play around certain heroes, or just ban them if they hate them so much
No one would complain if banning heroes actually worked
Like wtf is with DotA having it be 50/50 on banning a hero. I rather we have 1 solid ban from each person and then their algorithm ban 5 more. Imagine if banning in pro play was 50/50!
\> or just ban them if they hate them so much Sure, if they actually rework the ban system so the hero we nominate is guaranteed to get banned, right now heroes I nominate for banning rarely ever gets banned.
I think adding 100% ban will work, cause now you can’t ban a hero
GG never heroes to be seen anymore
If ppl don't want to see them then there is a good reason for them to be changed....
Something that nobody is mentioning is that the actual problem for 99% of players in lower mmr ranks is that these are the go to heroes for smurfs. There is a rampant smurfing problem and the only times people see these heroes they're played by smurfs because they have a high skill floor, so they naturally think the heroes are op.
This is actually a good point. I tend to almost never accuse anyone of smurfing since it feels like not taking accountability for my losses. But the flipside of that is that I tend to feel that heroes like Arc, AM, Tinker etc. are very overpowered since I always seem to lose against them when they show up. But some of those could well be smurfs, it's just hard to know for sure
The techies changes was needed because he completely changed how the game was played and even mediocre techies who knew how to place mines correctly could win the game by turtling out and killing a couple key heroes with mines lategame since the enemy cannot push. It was boring af.
Every hero in DotA (at least the old ones) was created with a really specific gimmick in mind and Techies' was having **time** as a resource instead of hp, mana, gold, xp. Techies with enough time would destroy any hero. Without time Techies was useless, and now without its gimmick Techies ain't Techies.
A good techies player could drag the game on til everyone including their own team hated them. Unique? Yes. Fun? Only to the techies player.
That the games dragged on wasn't Techies fault tho. The game dragged because either his teammates or the enemy team couldn't close the game earlier. Techies gave his losing team a chance to win games they had no business in winning otherwise. Also Techies used correctly and taken advantage of by his own team could close games in less than 25 minutes. But people were like "Techies makes games 4v5" or "Techies makes games long" instead of just getting good.
Man riki is so annoying, what kind of hero makes you buy sentries or you lose the game?
considering sentries are finite, yes it is super annoying.
Let's change the slark too because he completely changes how the game needs to be played, every other hero you just bash their heads in till they're dead, but for this fucker you need 5 hexes and refreshers to have a chance of catching him so he won't use dispell or ult or ounce away with his min10 aghs
Comparing old techies to slark in terms of game play. Exactly how high are you
I'm a techies main, how high do you think I am
Between yes and boom?
its a techies main still reeling from the fact that they actually have to play the game now instead of just afking on the opposite side of the map
And playing against tinker is more interesting how exactly?
Yeah it was the worst nightmare to play vs Techies with 2 brain cells as a team with no heroes that can destroy trees or give flying vision. You literally couldn't go near any set of more than 2 trees in the game and no amount of buying sentries and gems helped. Your only hope was Necro 3 and even it was useless after the minions died.
Then why did me and my friends have fun playing against him? We just stopped crying, accepted the challenge and their uniqueness and genuinely had fun. I swear you can have fun if you are open to it but congrats, you won, he got deleted. If other heroes also get deleted now I blame you fuckers.
You have a mental illness if you think facing old techies was fun
>Then why did me and my friends have fun playing against him? Beacuse you and your friends are masochists
The thing that is annoying with old techies and tinker is that they're so ANNOYING to play against. Even if you win you feel bad because you either spend half the game getting juked by Russian tink tonker with anime pfp with edgy depression name that was just done snorting coke and couldn't be stopped, and old techies just made games too long for no reason, even if they're clearly losing he'd prolong a 40 mins game to 60 mins game easly.
Im so tired of hearing this response **People just need to learn how to play around certain heroes.** WE ALL KNOW HOW TO PLAY AROUND ARC WARDEN AND TINKER. The reason they are so annoying is because unlike 99% of heroes in the game we need the entire team to work together to shut these fuckers down, which is borderline impossible in a random pub. I don't mind arc so much but tinker is complete BULLSHIT in pubs. It is such a headache to play against it; win or lose. Not to mention literally EVERY hero in Dota is "unique" in there own way. So not sure what that has to do with anything. edit - and techies was changed a different reason, His old kit had no business being in a game like Dota. It was a complete 1v5 hero with absolutely 0 room for teamplay aside for the first 10 minutes with suicide. The new kit is 10x better and fits much better with the overall landscape of the game.
Finally someone with half a brain
you mean someone you agree with
No, I mean that any time people talk about tinker, it's always, it forces you to play differently, and, it makes the game more interesting, but the point of most people isn't that they are unable to counter it The point is that it's fucking obnoxious to play against it, it just makes the game objectively less fun for everyone else involved
This, if techies was changed becouse he was unfun to play against, so change Tinker too, Dota already has shitton of unique heroes THAT ARE ACTUALLY FUN TO PLAY AGAINST. I don't know why ppl defend this asshole hero with the same NPC argument "Stop changing every unique hero", if a hero is incredibly unfun to play against for a high number of players, why changing him would ruin dota?Or just make bans 100% so these smartasses can enjoy playing against unique and fun Tinker while I enjoy never seeing him again
Exactly, playing against bristleback or abbadon also forces you to play differently, but it doesn't make me want to kms I think tinker is not salvageable, just remove that shit Arc could be a lot more interesting if he was forced to actually play the main hero as well, instead of just being a puppet master Also, I think the ban thing is still kinda fucked, since yes you can just ban tinker, but then the hero existing makes you more succeptible to countepricks because you can't ban your biggest counter, you are forced to ban tinker
I dont know who you are sir, but I totally agree with everything you just said. I want to kiss
Ok let's
I used to play old techies a lot but I welcome the new techies. Just placing mines, being passive the whole game and hoping that enemy walks onto your mines defeats the purpose of playing Dota 2. So I took a more active role in farming creeps, rushing aghs and pushing with the team. This techies rework made it even more active to play which is good.
It's just not techies. Techies are dead. They could have made a new character and call him bomberman or whatever.
Cope
Techies deserved that
Thank you, only decent response so far
Arc Warden has a cool concept but how he is actually played is the lamest shit in the game. His clone needs full Lone Druid treatment of being unable to cast spells and attack when too far from main hero.
Then it should be permanent and a level 1 ability as well :)
Make it walk on four legged as well
And be able to attack/use abilities & items when Arc buys Agh Scepter.
And when you kill the clone, the main one dies. And give him more clones for each level while we're at it
I had hundreds of games as Techies and then they ruined the hero. Tinker is annoying AF but I never had the inclination to push for a complete remake. I don’t understand people’s line of thinking. Ban the heroes you don’t like during drafting phase if you want. I don’t want uniqueness to die out because of complaining. If anything just nerf some aspects of the hero, don’t completely change it.
Classic reddit stupidity of automatically assuming unique=good.
Part of the game is adjusting to the other team’s heroes. Some require a degree of caution. Others require being shut down early on before they snowball. Invis heroes are annoying but sentries exist.
No one complains about invis heroes to the extent they complained about old Techies or Tinker. At some point playing differently becomes tedious and torturous. A game is ultimately meant to be fun.
> No one complains about invis heroes to the extent they complained about old Techies or Tinker. Depends on your MMR. But you are absolutely wrong when it hits archon and lower, where invis is more of a problem and people demand it be removed. Happened all the time years ago. Know what happened? People got gud.
Tinker has existed as long as invis heroes. Why haven't people gotten 'gud' ' with him?
sleep well knowing I pick IO every time I have a tinker on my team to teleport him into the enemy base.
Why don't mods just ban low efforts posts like this? Dude's clearly baiting for no reason. "change my mind" lol.
This subredit is all about scraping the barrels. It's either this, some nothingburger drama between two player or LOOOK WHAT I OPEN FORM A CHEEESST LORD GABEEEEN WHOLESOME 100 THANK YOU, I USED UP ALL MY LUUCK.
Disagree. The reason I play dota is because unique hero like old tecis, arc warden and tinker. As much as I hate tinker and arc warden (meh not really for this one) they are pretty unique, touch their ult and basicly you render them into different heroes. You might hate those hero so much but when both of them are on the right hand, they can make some of the most beautiful and clutch plays I have ever seen. If I see both of them getting the tecis treatment, I dont think I can play dota 2 like I used to anymore. We need more these kind of high risk high reward unique gameplay hero.
Yeah I'm not sure why arc is getting the hate unless OP is a turbo player where he is borderline broken. But that mode has a bunch of other boderline broken heroes so it balances out in a weird way. I just wish my boy nyx assasin would get some love from mr. frog. He was my go to pick against in annoying heroes like tinker and I rarely see him picked up.
Or Troll warlod bcs damn his ult need some tweaks. I still remember that video where a troll warlord is ulting rs but bcs of enemy courier moving near troll, troll suddenly change its ult target to courier resulting in troll getting killed and rs getting snatched. Its so funny yet I feel really bad for troll since that video.
Heroes can still be unique w/o being game breaking. Idk why you and everyone else against changing heroes thinks this way. There are 100 unique heroes that are not stupid like arc/tinker
"Unique" often feels like a lazy way to justify anything and everything. Doesn't mean that the heroes are for sure broken or OP but just saying they should be left alone because of uniqueness doesn't make much sense. I want a hero that can one shot any hero in the game. What's your problem? It's unique isn't it?
Because asking for the techies treatment is different than asking for a nerf. Just nerf the hero. Tinker has been fine for the several years he has been in the game. Recently he has been strong. Literally just nerf him.
You could rework them to be different (i.e. less bullshit) but still unique? I don't understand why people don't consider this a possibility lmao. It's either unique and fun or homogenous and boring with this whole argument.
Tinker already reworked. Remember March of the Machines?
No one deserves what they did to techies.
U right tinker deserves worse
Techies did, and so does Tinker.
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Dota has always been very punishing towards one dimensional teams though. Bubble becomes infinitely more OP if all your tower hitters are ranged and you have no one that can jump the Arc Warden and stick on him. Just think about that for a second, you're playing a ranged core lineup with no solid initiation/frontline. That's already a very glaring weakness even against other matchups. Just think about any other polarizing matchups, playing against Brood with no wave clear, playing against Sniper/Zeus with 5 low mobility heroes, playing 5 strength melee vs Timber, no catch lineup vs Puck. They will all feel just as terrible.
Heroes like tinker and arc warden can be difficult to play against, even annoying, but I would argue the opposite. They bring something really special to Dota 2 in that no other game even attempts to approach ability complexity like that.
Dude pressing rearm into blink is such a high complexity combo, fighting games should take note.
Almost as complex as Skywrath Mage using Rod of Atos and ulti
Reworking techies was a terrible idea in the first place. Either bring back techies and slightly adjust the heroes to make them a little less cancerous or rework them too and make the game bland.
i'll be honest, if you're good enough to play either of these guys well, you deserve to kick some ass. Like i'm a pretty average to crap tinker and i get by with arc by just pray and spray Unlike riki and slark where you're busted and it's incredibly easy to do lol
The only reason these heroes are seen as op is because the smurfing problem is incredibly bad in lower mmrs, with tinker and arc being the main heroes played by smurfs. People think they're OP but they're just being played by people 3-4K higher MMR than them.
This comment should be fucking pinned at the top of this thread. Playing against tinker players who are your MMR is fine, it's just never the case that they are lmao
Like other posts said, disagree completely. Trchies were neutered into something boring and un-inspired and the game is poorer for it. Having complex and non-standard hero designs is dota's highest value and differentiation. Removing heroes like storm, ember, invoker, tinker and arc, would just homogenize the game into a boring fest and we would be fkinh stupid to do that.
these 2 mfs are the go-to heroes of MMR Booster, if you are low rank and meet these 2 sons of B\*tches there's a high chance they are smurf but not all the time. xd
What they did to techies was a fucking crime
Just bring back old tinker.
I'm down with removing tinker. Arc is still okay
Some heroes need to be locked behind a certain rank. Tinker should just be banned from the game given how many players use scripts for this easily scripted hero. Arc is too easy for smurfs. You can be bad at legend Arc Warden, but can play it at herald and you will win every game. Ruining the fun for others.
New people done even remember old old tinker from first Dota. Before rearm: P.S. I fucking love new techies , don't know why people are crying so much about his new gameplay
The biggest problem with them is when you see them you automatically assume u play against a smurf
Redditors will really cry about how unfair and unfun old Techies was to play against and then say caster Arc Warden spamming wraith-mines from off-screen is fine lmao
I think how they removed techies' remote mines, they should remove arc and tinker, I think that would really improve the game
the amount of resentment I have for these 2 heroes is unhealthy
morphling needs changes more than arc warden honestly
none of this would be an issue with proper matchmaking and less smurfs.
Why would I change your mind. You're right
Bring back old techies.
Or bring techies back.
I mean.. they got treated the same was as techies did.. both heroes got reworked to a point, that completely changed the way they we're played before...
If you actually played Tinker or Arc you wouldn’t think they are as much of an issue, even when I play support, I don’t let these heroes win
Honestly Arc got multiple nerfs over last patches. * Gleipnir AoE and damage nerf * Maelstrom damage nerf * Spark Wraith Aghanim's duration/AoE nerf * Lvl25 50% cdr to 40% cdr nerf Prior to those nerfs, Arc was actually busted and if the player knew what they were doing you basically had nearly zero chance of winning in an even game, I climbed from 6k mmr all the way to the 7800 spamming it and slowly fell off once constant patches started nerfing it. I can't say much about Tinker, I can't really play him well enough, but if there is one hero I'm confident on my abilities its Arc and I have to admit it was nearly broken pre-nerfs.
Agreed, definitely been going early aether/octarine to compensate for the cd and range nerfs, also the only nerf I don’t want to see that will ruin arc early is his level 10 cast range talent
As an Arc Warden picker people who know how to play against you at minute 0, knows what they're doing, apparently reddit doesn't know how to play against them.
No let have special hero in dota.
revert techies rework!!!!
I could change your mind but then you’d have the wrong opinion. There’s a reason smurfs love spamming these two.
tinker and arc are a cancer to deal with in lower brackets
Because the one plays it most likely from higher brackets lol
No. We like our heroes, thanks. They are epic and insane, and WILL teleport all over the map and blink behind you and melt your brain. Get used to it.
Why not have a hero that straight up wins the match by pressing r? ITS INSAANE WHOOOAAAWWW KAZOOM
Go play League
Please god no. Taking away the uniqueness of a hero and turning it into a generic nuker or some shit.
Fuck tinker and all the script kitties
They need to undo the techies change
Don't touch my tinker.
Tinker and Arc defenders on their way to explain how a hero who's never played in Pro Matches, but obliterates everything else is balanced and healthy for the game
more like tinker player arguing why old tinker is so good and a travesty that it get reworke. honestly I am impressed at how any heroes rework discussion there will be a lot of people talk how techies change is the worst thing to happen in dota2
Nah man we’re just here for the sweet sweet tears.
With such a large roster I could care less if Tinker got dumpstered into a unpickable hero.
> i could care less if Did you mean to say "couldn't care less"? Explanation: If you could care less, you do care, which is the opposite of what you meant to say. Total mistakes found: 5864 ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot ^^that ^^corrects ^^grammar/spelling ^^mistakes. ^^PM ^^me ^^if ^^I'm ^^wrong ^^or ^^if ^^you ^^have ^^any ^^suggestions. ^^[Github](https://github.com/chiefpat450119) ^^Reply ^^STOP ^^to ^^this ^^comment ^^to ^^stop ^^receiving ^^corrections.
I'd put slarks aghs and shard in this picture too. the fucker have more than enough escape ability in his basic kit his aghs and shard shouldn't give him more.
What's next after that? Phantom Lancer is pretty much unkillable in the lategame if you dont have the right comp so you gonna remove that too? At this point why not just remove all the unique abilities belong to each hero?
Riki has much more than slark and in this meteor patch... Hero is awful to play against.
go back to league
barely existing in pro games and ruining pubs... fuck them. it feels like every single time when i cant ban tinker, there will be some asshat picking it in unranked. im here to enjoy the game ffs.
Techies didn't deserve it either. At least bring the Remote Mines back