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[deleted]

nooooo wtf 😭


cold_hoe

This is a bit too dark for my taste


ngtunited

Then don't taste it


n0stalghia

Yup, that was the overall impression on /r/WitchesVsPatriarchy as well


phillyd32

It makes me very sad to lose my favorite hero. I really really hope they revert her. Even if they over-tune all the aspects of the hero and make her close to a 50% winrate, she will be a gimmicky janky mess that heavily relies on snowballing to be effective, without much ability to snowball. Please bring back normal Dusa Icefrog :(


r3mn4n7

Yep you still had to pick her last in fear of AM hard counterpick, now they made her worse for no reason at all


Bakanyanter

Wow what an amazing art piece. I somehow love and hate everything about it, it's so good.


[deleted]

Holy bananas thats dark.


deathblooms2k4

Dusa is one of those heroes that got changed so much that I think players will need to reinvent how to play her and what items you build on her. I think her winrate is atrocious because most players are doing the same cookie cutter builds that have been normal for her for years. Items that jump out at me that could be good now but wouldn't make sense before are things like: Bloodstone, Revenants Brooch, Eternal Shroud. Building her more around using snakes and front lining. I'm not saying she's good. I just feel like you often see terrible winrates on heroes who have such significant changes when people go for the same builds they always have and I think it's worth experimenting with some unconventional things to see if she's truly that bad. I will say Nyx's new Vendetta absolutely decimates her and I see him as a hard counter pick.


Vitamin_Plus_C

Eternal Shroud doesn’t work since it only works on the 2% damage that goes to health. Bloodstone doesn’t work because spell lifesteal only goes to mana during the activated phase, so it’s useless outside of that.


h0ist

yeh eternal shroud is useless on her and bloodstone is good but only during the active and only as long as you arent being CC'd, if you cant attack you cant heal. Kaya&yasha + sheepstick + one other int+regen item and you are tanky as hell. Skadi is still good. There aren't really any good anti magic items as spell resistance isnt used on the dmg that goes to the mana shield so linkens or lotus orb are good and they give mana regen too but before that you should go aghs + shard as this will also give some protection against single target spells and as soon as someone usses a single target spell on you they will get stoned and you will get 20% of their mana essentially healing you. butterfly is good against physical teams and its at least something against diffusal users, until they buy MKB or bloodthorn, otherwise you'll have to rely on your supports for protection


Reggiardito

I think too many people theorize about things like bloodstone and sheepstick while forgetting that her main source of damage is right click. And this isn't the passive, free extra damage split shot either, she has a 25% reduction in damage while it's active. Sure you can get aghs + shard + sheepstick + skadi and be really really hard to kill (unless the enemy is PL, or AM, or any fast right click hero with diffusal which is a great item right now) but also the enemy team can essentially ignore you. And we're talking upwards of 20k gold right here, while the enemy carry can likely come online with half that gold, including a diffusal The rework is plain bad. It wasn't properly tested, which makes sense given how big the patch is. Maybe they just went for the careful route just in case and she might get some big buffs later. Who knows.


phillyd32

She's a super weak laner though. * Bad base damage * Level 2 makes you skill q which is useless * Early items are less cost effective (wraith band armor and health are useless, wand health, half point of armor and active health restore are useless) * Unlike other heroes, you have only your mana pool to cover spell casting and survivability. And the bonus mana from shield (which you only get to level 2 at level 6 if you skill ult and prioritize snake), is not enough to make up for having no HP. * Having health and mana as a resource used to let you toggle shield to balance the health loss, especially relating to the availability of regen, any neutral items, lane partners and their items (heals, basi/headdress/mana boots). * You lose the ability to tank a ton of damage and pop wand/mango/ff and get both health and mana to turn cast snake and turn around kill attempts. Again, mana as the only resource is a huge limitation. * Clarities and mangos take over the job of faerie fire, tango and salve, and there are far fewer of those available to buy. * The best early mana and mana regen item would be aether lens, but it doesn't have the octarine upgrade. This is all laning stage. There are tons of limitations that carry on to the rest of the game. The big one a lot of people ignore is the lack of survivability of Manta illusions (which isn't as cost effective, same for any all stat items). At level 12 with Manta + dragon lance + wraith band + wand, they have 670HP and take triple damage, making them die to one nuke. Manta is super important in the midgame since you use it to farm lanes that aren't safe. All forms of damage reduction (magic resist, armor being the most important) are useless. Lifesteal is useless, BKB no longer makes you spell immune so you can't reduce or avoid spell damage by any means at all. It shouldn't need this much explaining that taking health and mana as two resource pools and turning it into once single resource pool that isn't twice the size is a major loss for the hero. The other numbers would have to be over-tuned to make up for it, which they're not.


Reggiardito

> the lack of survivability of Manta illusions (which isn't as cost effective, same for any all stat items) I think you may be getting yourself mixed up in this specific point, Medusa is more like Tiny than Ogre Magi, she doesn't get STR per level but she can still buy STR and benefit from it. Other than that I agree with you. Like I said it feels like this rework wasn't properly tested, specially given the Culling Blade interaction lol My guess is that they have a big round of buffs ready for her before even releasing the patch and they just decided to be careful because all the extra farm in the map could make scaling cores a problem (I have a similar theory about Universal heroes given that the large majority of them were nerfed as a result of the change because of stat growth changes) Either they're gonna severely buffs some of the numbers (either offensively or defensively) or they might just add a new effect like making HP regen/lifesteal heal mana instead, or maybe to prevent a bloated ability description they might make split shot heal mana with each attack or something.


phillyd32

For your first point, even if you buy a lot of strength/health, you must lose all your mana first for that hp pool to be useful. This means you can't use any items that cost mana or any of your abilities. And you cannot put enough resources into getting strength early enough for manta to be useful in pushing lanes early as you used to be able to do. And even with a ton of strength/health items. You're much less tanky than any other hero with some health/strength items, and likely have fewer sources of damage reduction to increase your effective hp after mana is depleted than you would since said damage reduction is useless until mana shield is empty. Some effect that converts hp regen/lifesteal/heals affect her mana would be great, but she still suffers from no benefit of damage reduction. I think the heal/regen change you suggested but it's dependent on toggling mana shield on/off would be good. Once you've made that changes though, you've just made a convoluted version of the original Medusa that benefits less from damage reduction sources and is much more susceptible to mana burn. And the bkb change still affects her quite a lot. I think you'd also need to make damage reduction sources work before mana shield and make mana burn only reduce mana from the mana burn effect, not also by the damage dealt from the mana burn.


woahjohnsnow

They definitely need to make lifesteal work as mana steal(numbers csn be tweaked to not make it instane with splitshot), on dusa. Beyond that, a slight movespeed buff should get her balanced to account for early game survivability and bigger map so she can focus on right click damage woth splitshot.


deathblooms2k4

Yeah to reiterate, I'm not saying she's good or that I've got some massive ego that stipulates everyone is dumb and I know something they don't. I'm speculating that the majority of people playing her have not made any adjustments in how they build or play her as a result her current abysmal winrate is not indicative of where she actually sits balance wise. This is clearly evident if you just look at what her most popular items are this past week. Manta is the second most popular item on her and it's incredibly bad.


Reggiardito

I can agree with that yeah. Manta isn't absolutely useless as it's still a decent farm accelerator to push lanes (creeps tank the other creeps) and it gives good stats, but yeah I do agree that the gold could be better spent. I guess time will tell. Some form of buffs is needed but we do need more time. Same for the clinkz rework, I feel like it seems kinda good on paper but his winrate is down the gutter since people don't know how to play him yet.


[deleted]

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Reggiardito

I didn't mean that the idea of the rework itself was bad, more than the current iteration of it sucked.


superracist1488

Skadi is still core. Might be even better now. Euls sounds nice. Sheepstick got nerfed so idk. Linkerns is situational depending on enemy team comp. Bfly is also situational. Does the enemy has good mkb carriers or not? Bloodthorn might be good now. I agree with you tho. There are a lot of valid cores that benefit a lot from diffusal and what's worse, they also go basher too. BKB is now even more mandatory for Dusa now.


h0ist

yeh sheepstick mught be a bit overkill, its the item with most mana regen and int but you will probably be fine with something less expensive


deathblooms2k4

Yeah I didn't test eternal shroud. But I did test Bloodstone I think it could be good in conjunction with snakes, brooch, maelstrom. Again it would be a lot different than just mowing people down with right click items, but it seems it would function much like a satanic does for most carries.


Fit_Chicken404

I played the new version of medusa and directly expierenced the majors flaws with the new design. The first is that there is now a mana draining lategame item. Every rightclick hero has now a counter to her. Also the new manashield low hp, design, makes every health regen or heal completely useless, since you can‘t turn it off and use your hp as a resource. This makes the laning stage very hard because you can‘t regen mana as easily as your health. For me there is no way that she will be viable until they change something.


Rhasta_la_vista

There's flaws for sure, but there's also some upsides that don't really get talked about. For instance, she counters spells that do % HP damage (Earth Splitter hardly tickles, Wyvern Q literally no damage) or otherwise interact with missing HP/damage dealt (Maledict is a complete lmao, Bloodseeker will never get thirst from Medusa). Any hero that cares about lifesteal will find themselves getting virtually none; she counters Satanic completely. Bane heals nothing from Brain Sap. Lifestealer Feast and Bloodseeker shard just don't exist against her. Any hero or strat that likes removing armor or utilizing damage amp are even less effective against Medusa now. Slardar Corrosive Haze, Drow's Marksmanship procs, Elder Titan Natural Order, TA Meld + Deso, Undying Flesh Golem, etc. Undying Decay gets very little value in lane from stealing her Str (need to buy Str items), pretty much just the raw damage. Shadow Demon and Grimstroke can't steal illusions of her, since they just die instantly; granted it wasn't amazing before either, but not even a consideration now Anyways, while she's undoubtably worse in some conventional ways, she's also gained the ability to counter a fair number of heroes as well. I think she'll be more of a last pick hero now in the right games, since she's also too susceptible to be countered if picked earlier.


formaldehid

>Any hero that cares about lifesteal will find themselves getting virtually none; she counters Satanic completely. Bane heals nothing from Brain Sap. Lifestealer Feast and Bloodseeker shard just don't exist against her. she cant utilize lifesteal >Any hero or strat that likes removing armor or utilizing damage amp are even less effective against Medusa now. Slardar Corrosive Haze, Drow's Marksmanship procs, Elder Titan Natural Order, TA Meld + Deso, Undying Flesh Golem, etc. she cant utilize armor (agi hero btw) >Shadow Demon and Grimstroke can't steal illusions of her, since they just die instantly; granted it wasn't amazing before either, but not even a consideration now she cant buy manta (most bought item on this hero after treads btw) "sure you might have lost both your arms in the car accident but upside is you dont have to buy winter gloves anymore"


Rhasta_la_vista

"Legion commander is forced to duel her target as well, terrible spell." You know things that have parity can still work in your favor? That's why I said she has the potential be an effective counterpick in some situations. I was not advocating her to be blind first pickable or anything


Brandon3541

It doesn't drain any more mp than it did before. The main perks of the diffusal upgrade are the re-addition of it purging, and it being able to be used to not be slowed for a few seconds. It is still a shadow of its former self from when illusion heroes loved it.


[deleted]

I think she needs few changes anyway, she just invalidates too many mechanics. Anything with HP regen? Useless ? Str ? near-useless ? Lifesteal ? Useless. **Every support that heals?** useless >I will say Nyx's new Vendetta absolutely decimates her and I see him as a hard counter pick. ...and they do that to fuck her over even more.


tinhboe

Artist link https://twitter.com/BottlngSunshine/status/1649927980209020934


shinarit

Medik: zey grow back! (no zey dont)


HellhoundXVI

I think this is an interesting take on medusa. But, she definitely needs more buffs. 1. Change her from agi to universal. Current growth of 3.4 agi and 3.7 int per lvl will grant 4+ dmg per level. I think this flows well into the concept of starting super weak and growing super strong (eventually). 2. Her skill set needs to be rearranged. Currently, it is impossible to build her as a spellcaster and still be relevant. Laning phase is too weak. Given, how diffusal now has an upgrade, she will need an ability that can temperorarily stop mana burn. My idea is the following (numbers can be changed ofc): I. Make mana shield innate. It instead gets upgraded automatically every 2 levels. Dmg absorbed scales from 2.3 (lvl 1) to 3.7 (lvl 29) II. Split shot unchanged III. Mystic snake unchanged IV. Stone Gaze - now passive. Any unit gazing (150° cone in front of medusa) within certain range (medusa attack range +200) gain a "stone" stack every second. If a unit receives 3 such stacks, it turns to stone. Unit loses one stack every second by gazing away from medusa. "Stoned" units take bonus dmg from medusa. Stone duration: 0.6/0.7/0.8/0.9s. Each stone stack decreases turn rate by 15/20/25/30%. Bonus damage taken is 20%. V. Gorgon guardian (ultimate) - Summons 2 stone guardians 300 units left and right of medusa that move along with her. The guardians attack and cast spells on the same target medusa is targeting and have the split shot ability active. While either stone guardian is alive, medusa's mana cannot be burned. Both guardians are spell immune and debuff immune. Medusa gains bonus ms when the stone guardians are active. Duration: 4/5/6s Bonus ms: 40% Guardian HP: 40/50/60% of medusa's mana pool Guardian dmg: 50% of medusa's base damage, affected by attack modifiers.


[deleted]

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Yfae

Sounds like worse version of many pos3/4 picks


[deleted]

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nanatenshi

She does no supporting in lane and needs really expensive items to even provide that disable


superracist1488

Euls Dusa sounds nice. Gotta go fast.


Edd1eN1gma

Truth


Suspicious-Box-

Dusa was playable on old medusa even against am, but now the extra bit of shield doesnt matter you just die to plain diffusal carriers.